From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #521 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, November 25 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 521 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- On "Getting On", njc ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] RE: NJC - search for signs of intelligent life ["patrick leader" ] Re: norah jones/tanita tikaram njc [jop ] Find the typo ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Find the typo ["Mark or Travis" ] poetry ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: awww [Randy Remote ] RE: poetry ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: NJC new in town [colin ] Re: norah jones/tanita tikaram njc [colin ] where is Herbie Hancock? ["J.David Sapp" ] Re: awww [colin ] Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. [David Marine ] FW: Is Joni a poet? Nay. resend [David Marine ] Re: awww ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #520 - NPR [BRYAN8847@aol.com] As we put the final nails on the Poetry thread... [johnirving ] Re: NJC Re: awww ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: norah jones/tanita tikaram njc [Janet Hess ] Re: awww [Randy Remote ] Best Movie of the Year 2003 njc [vince ] Re: NJC November 25rh !!!! [Michael Paz ] Art criticism - why? [Little Bird ] Travelogue review - painful! [Little Bird ] NJC November 25th a year later [Mags N Brei ] Re: DEATH AND THE MAIDEN NJC [] art criticism Why? Because njc [vince ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:37:03 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: On "Getting On", njc The other day there were two twenty-somethings in the used record store, talking about music when I put some vinyl on the counter. I had found a record by the guy who wrote "Taxi" and co-wrote "Cats In The Cradle" with his wife. "See?" said one to the other. "I told you someone would want Harry Chapin-Carpenter!" Kids today. What's wrong with them? Lama, who will be creaking into his 47th year this week. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:34:08 -0500 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: NJC - search for signs of intelligent life >Did you mean to say WITHOUT changing hair or makeup? yes, that is what dipshit patrick meant to say :-0 patrick np - rickie lee jones - live at montreaux 7-16-82 - we belong together ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:45:03 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: NJC new in town I'm new around here. Thought I should say hello before getting involved in the many interesting topics of conversation going on. So hello all. DF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:17:29 +0200 From: jop Subject: Re: norah jones/tanita tikaram njc > >>>>And thanks Colin - hope she turns out to be a good one > long term. I remember a singer back in the > very late 80's maybe 90, Tanita Tikarim, who had a great > debut album and > then I never heard from her again. Has anyone else?! <<<< > > she brought out a great debut, followed it up with a whole > string of > consistently good album (personal faourite of mine is > "eleven kinds of > loneliness" where she sings with what sounds almost like a > speech > impediment and does some stunning songs like "heal you" & > "to drink the > rainbow". an artist worth listening to if youre into > intelligent, self > written lyrics, unusual & beautiful vocals, and original, > individual > arrangements - gee - wonder if theres anyone here that likes > that kind of > music :-) > > just stay clear of her latest, dreadful, "cappucino > songs"... no one seems to know what happened to her. even her mailing list has gone silent. my guess is that she got disillusioned with the music business + not having a regular life since her teens. i disagree about "cappuccino songs". it has glossy production and it's a shift from her previous albums, but it has great songs. i would say the opener "stop listening" is one of her best. there's not much left of her early van morrison influences, which must have alienated some of the fans. it's her DED... my least favourite albums are the two that followed the excellent debut - ok & harmless but don't really represent what i think is really her. "eleven kinds" was her first effort to do it on her own. that one and the next "lovers in the city" are great - interesting, original. - --j ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:23:50 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Find the typo Much thanks for the link, Ron in LA. This interview filled in a gap in my history when I was out of touch. I haven't been reading Karen's book. I dunno. I'm hesitant to finish it. It's like when I was first on the list and found the discography page. "Uh-oh." I knew I had lots more Joni than anyone else I knew but did I really want to have it ALL? It felt like I'd lose my amateur status or something and take on the mantle of a "fanatic". I don't have all of the Beatles. I don't know what I'm missing. Anyway, I enjoyed reading the article. I didn't know much about the dental problems and the financial problems in the 80s and this article filled in some gaps. As is always the case, an excerpt isn't the same- it just don't do it- but if someone wants to play along, see if you can find the typo in this excerpt............. http://www.kgsr.com/iTOOLIncludes/6305.php "I have a painter's ego and a love -- I get a thrill of just opposing one color against another. I get like a private rush. I'm an only child. It's a form of solitary play. If I put that color next to that color and add another color, you know, I get a buzz. It's the same with music. I think I paint -- I don't have any of the musician's languages. I read as a child, but I let the reading ability go. I don't use it in the recording process. I don't -- because I fiddle around with the guitar so much that I'm not playing it normally anyway, the numerical language that some musicians have, doesn't mean anything within my system, nor does the alphabetical system. I don't know what key I'm playing in. But with -- so I'm a sophisticated ignorant is basically what I am. But there are people who can come in, listen to what I play, write it out and follow it. My harmony is selected by my own interest in the same way that I would select to put that color next to that color. You know, I've produced most of my albums, except during my marriage to Chuck and we did more collaboration. You know, just so that we could see each other, because, you know, albums are kind of consuming. And, yeah, I think of myself as a painter who writes music. " Lama np: Shawn Colvin's "Steady On" on vinyl Since the radio didn't have much good stuff when this came out, how come this LP was a cut-out? What the hell? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:50:32 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Find the typo You know, I've produced > most of my albums, except during my marriage to Chuck and we did more > collaboration. You know, just so that we could see each other, because, you > know, albums are kind of consuming. So how many records did she make when she was married to Chuck? Are there yet more unknown early Joni treasures out there somewhere waiting to be unearthed? Did I get it right, teacher? Did I get it right? Did I? Did I? Did I? Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:06:15 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: poetry john ->'since it's difficult to define Poetry when it comes in so many forms'< for me, i don't get why it needs to be defined...that sort of thing gives me a headache...perhaps for others it is stimulating & useful somehow but for me, it brings to mind the phrase 'dancing about architecture'...sometimes when i read a novel i see sentences that i would call poetry...so really there is so much crossover...kind of like musical genres... >'If Poetry is obtuse, it is because it's so damn literate!'< i don't understand the above statement...what does this actually mean? ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:19:14 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: awww Criticizing critics? I don't know if the remarks decrying those who think they know what Joni "should have done" were directed at me. I did not say I knew what Joni should have done, only what could have been had she taken a different direction. That's my take. Hopefully this album realized the vision SHE had, which the main thing. My truck with this album doesn't so much concern what Joni did on it. I just think it was mostly ruined by the heavy hand of Mr Mendoza. Like the garish gold frames Joni chooses for her humble artwork, his contribution is not my cup of tea, yet it is a major part of the sound. It's almost like Joni is a side(wo)man on a Vince Mendoza album. I gave him my warm body I gave him power over me (Strange Boy) Some people have had the same complaint about Klein and Dolby's production on DED. That said, I do think there are some fine spots on the album. Dawntreader soars despite the weight of the arrangement. There are probably 5 or 6 songs I like quite a bit. And the recording itself, and the technical aspects of the mix are uniformly excellent. I just wonder what it would have sounded like with a different collaborator, maybe Phillip Glass or ??? SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > And where is Herbie Hancock? He's mentioned in every review, the only place > he's missing is on the CD! > He is evident on the end of side 1- it is either Trouble Child or God Must Be a Boogie Man where you hear him. The credits, unlike her previous albums, are not track specific. Kate Bennett wrote: > Randy wrote >>FTR, stripped of it's rhythm, sounds like stillborn bachelor > pad music.<< > > that is so interesting to hear your reactions randy...i'm such a rhythm > freak but i didn't miss it here one bit...i have to listen to this cut again > but i recall listening last night in the dark that i felt i was being > transported up to BC- it was deep winter & i was looking out across the > water under a full moon...it had a haunting quality of her looking back in > time while standing in the same physical location where she wrote the > song.... That is such a nice description. Western classical music, before it began to be influenced by the music of Africa, had rhythm, but it did not have a beat. It is curious that Joni, who has been so heavily into the percussive- ness of African and South American music would put out something so "white", for lack of a better word. >>the hugely ponderous treatment of "Woodstock", at heart a musically simple song with earthy hippie-era lyrics.<< (Kate again) i was blown away (in a good way) by her treatment of woodstock...yes, it was once a simple song for a simpler time (or so it seems now) & was an anthem for a generation (i was at woodstock myself)... but her new arrangement makes a huge statement about what has happened to us all since those simple glory days...imo of course... I meant that it is a harmonically simple song, mainly two related minor cholds, a simple melody, and direct lyrics, like someone you met is talking to you. The grandioseness of the new version just doesn't, IMO, fit the song. Little Bird wrote: Taking criticism is par for the course for any artist. Besides, Joni is one of the most opinionated people around so I'm sure she can take it as easily as she can dish it out, although would probably rush to defend her art, LOUDLY, if given the chance to confront her critics. (Me) I agree with you that throwing your art out there to the public is exposing it to criticism. However, I think Joni does not take criticism well. She becomes strongly defensive, and seems to feel her work should not be questioned. If I thought for a second that Joni would read my comments, I would keep them to myself. Regarding criticism, Paul Kantner said that if you believe the good reviews, then you have to believe the bad ones, too, meaning, I think, that you should ignore them both and follow your (he)art. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:7:29 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: poetry > for me, i don't get why it needs to be defined...that sort of thing gives me > a headache... Me too...though I was an English major in college I could never get that interested in writing critical essays, dissecting and examining works of literature...I was much more interested in reading Tom Robbins novels, going to see the Grateful Dead, and writing songs. It seems that when you try to define poetry...break it up into little pieces that can be labelled and put in a jar somewhere, you are just getting further away from what poetry is- by the very act of trying to define it. Like trying to define what life is, or what love is...the things poetry speaks of are somewhat intangible anyway. It seems kind of funny really...to use words in the frigid limitations of a technical analysis to define poetry, in which words are much more beautiful, deep in meaning, and transcendent. Poetry speaks for itself. Victor NP: Travelogue "Slouching Towards Bethlehem"...wow . - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:15:50 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC new in town hello to you too. welcome. chuty001 wrote: > I'm new around here. Thought I should say hello before getting involved in >the many interesting topics of conversation going on. So hello all. > >DF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:17:23 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: norah jones/tanita tikaram njc >no one seems to know what happened to her. even her mailing >list has gone silent. > i seem to recall she suffered mental problems. her borther is an actor-he starred in This life. as far as i am aware they do not speak. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:33:02 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: where is Herbie Hancock? The use of Herbie is interesting. 1st time thru I just heard him on Be Cool. But after repeated listening he seems to be used as a colorist - Example: SOS "You're stumbling in shadows" there is a quick, jagged piano chord stumbling. I have found other examples that escape me at the moment. He's mixed in the background with the orchestra, not up front like Shorter. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:24:43 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: awww > She becomes strongly defensive, and seems to >feel her work should not be questioned. > i don't see why it should be questioned. fine to like or not like but the rest is insignificant. why would any of us have the right to question anybody about any art they have produced? there is art I like and art i don't like. i wouldn't have the gall to question those whp roduced the stuff i don't like! I have always felt that being a critic is the least worthwhile of occupations. To me Gosford Park was tedious and din't enthrall me one bit. but that is just how it affected me. others loved it. I certainly wouldn't tellthe driector, write or actors that they did a bad job! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:31:16 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. Hey John -- John said > "Define poetry." I9m happy to try to define 3poetry,2 although I would argue that my definition is not particularly relevant, as the word is in the dictionary. I9ll try for as catholic a definition as possible: poetry is writing (printed, chanted, spoken, or sung) which gains added beauty and meaning (beyond the literal) by the creative choice and juxtaposition of words. Here are some dictionary definitions that are a bit less verbose: Imaginative language or composition, whether expressed rhythmically or in prose. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, ) 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. 1: Literature in metrical form [syn: poesy, verse] 2: any communication resembling poetry in beauty or the evocation of feeling. Source: WordNet . 1.6, ) 1997 Princeton University. John said > "Define good poetry. Here's one of my own poems: (from years ago...apologies, apologies... I was young and did not know better...) Is it good poetry? As good as Joni's?" Ah, define GOOD poetry! This gets to my point. It9s ALL poetry. Rightly, you did not ask me whether your writing was a poem, but whether it was a GOOD poem. Um...I think it9s pretty good in parts (I won9t dissect it here but would be glad to give you a full critique privately). I did enjoy reading it. I don9t think it9s as good as Joni, but others may. Have you asked your partner? Obviously the answer to the question of whether a particular poem is bad, good, or sublime will differ from person to person. Academic poets and students of poetry will bring a different set of criteria to the question than lay people. Your post seems to express a desire to work toward a definition of absolute good. It9s a noble desire and, I think, a spiritual one. As a great poet once said: "No one knows They can never get that close Guesses at most Guesses based on what each set of time and change is touching" I love Joni's poetry for many reasons. I love it because she finds gorgeous metaphors, because she speaks in cadences which resonate for me (as one who grew up loving pop music and also studying great poets from Homer to Donne to Eliot to Frank O'Hara), because her words seem direct, sincere, and heartfelt, because there is a sophistication to her thinking but no marriage to a particular "school" of thought, because her descriptive powers are strong, because the themes of many of her poems intersect with my own personal questions about love and life, and because the poetry is written by Joni. My life has been informed by these poems. I have lived, grown, and loved with these poems imprinted upon my psyche. Best, David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:42:04 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: FW: Is Joni a poet? Nay. resend That last one seemed to have a lot of unintentional numbers in it. I hope this one doesn't. Hey John -- John said > "Define poetry." I9m happy to try to define 3poetry,2 although I would argue that my definition is not particularly relevant, as the word is in the dictionary. I9ll try for as catholic a definition as possible: poetry is writing (printed, chanted, spoken, or sung) which gains added beauty and meaning (beyond the literal) by the creative choice and juxtaposition of words. Here are some dictionary definitions that are a bit less verbose: Imaginative language or composition, whether expressed rhythmically or in prose. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, ) 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. 1: Literature in metrical form [syn: poesy, verse] 2: any communication resembling poetry in beauty or the evocation of feeling. Source: WordNet . 1.6, ) 1997 Princeton University. John said > "Define good poetry. Here's one of my own poems: (from years ago...apologies, apologies... I was young and did not know better...) Is it good poetry? As good as Joni's?" Ah, define GOOD poetry! This gets to my point. It9s ALL poetry. Rightly, you did not ask me whether your writing was a poem, but whether it was a GOOD poem. Um...I think it9s pretty good in parts (I won9t dissect it here but would be glad to give you a full critique privately). I did enjoy reading it. I don9t think it9s as good as Joni, but others may. Have you asked your partner? Obviously the answer to the question of whether a particular poem is bad, good, or sublime will differ from person to person. Academic poets and students of poetry will bring a different set of criteria to the question than lay people. Your post seems to express a desire to work toward a definition of absolute good. It9s a noble desire and, I think, a spiritual one. As a great poet once said: "No one knows They can never get that close Guesses at most Guesses based on what each set of time and change is touching" I love Joni's poetry for many reasons. I love it because she finds gorgeous metaphors, because she speaks in cadences which resonate for me (as one who grew up loving pop music and also studying great poets from Homer to Donne to Eliot to Frank O'Hara), because her words seem direct, sincere, and heartfelt, because there is a sophistication to her thinking but no marriage to a particular "school" of thought, because her descriptive powers are strong, because the themes of many of her poems intersect with my own personal questions about love and life, and because the poetry is written by Joni. My life has been informed by these poems. I have lived, grown, and loved with these poems imprinted upon my psyche. Best, David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:48:15 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC new in town --- chuty001 wrote: > I'm new around here. Thought I should say hello > before getting involved in > the many interesting topics of conversation going > on. So hello all. Hey, welcome to the list. How do you like it so far? ;) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:59:2 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: awww > i don't see why it should be questioned. fine to like or not like but > the rest is insignificant. why would any of us have the right to > question anybody about any art they have produced? there is art I like > and art i don't like. i wouldn't have the gall to question those whp > roduced the stuff i don't like! If it is a question about some aspect of the production then there is nothing wrong with questioning the producer. Producers can make bad decisions and are largely responsible for the way a record ends up sounding. They are only human and just as fallible as anyone else. My girlfriend is a producer, who on occasion has coproduced a project with someone, and I've sat and listened to her critique things several times. If it is simply a matter of not liking the material and/or the artist then you're right, there is no point in questioning the production. But it all really comes down to just having a real ability to listen to something and hear how it should sound. A bad producer can make a great artist sound terrible and a good producer can make an awful artist sound great. I went to a lecture given by Mike Shipley when I was in sound school. He was talking about having worked with both Def Leppard and Joni Mitchell. He said that when he worked with Def Leppard, he had to record like a hundred vocal takes and then layer and piece tracks together just to come up with a decent sounding vocal track. With Joni, he said he just recorded everything she did..set up a mic and just let her go at it. Victor SP: Travelogue....I like this!!! - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:04:35 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #520 - NPR PBS Master documentary on Joni will be aired next spring and I know this because ut was just announced as I was preparing to type this having just heard T'log praised as one of the best albums and recommended top buy as Christmas gift on NPR's annual segment for this purpose. Much praise given to T'log, too, and then the off hand comment on the master documentary! I'm sure the NPR feature accounts for T'log zooming up into the 20s on the Amazon sales chart Sunday (had been in the 60s-80s all week). Anyway, I really want Joni to succeed, as always. But I am still having a major battle within myself trying to decide if I can continue to listen to this CD. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:37:50 -0600 From: johnirving Subject: As we put the final nails on the Poetry thread... As Dr. Phil would say, "You cannot change what you will not acknowledge." Certainly, the english language clearly permits a broad use of the terms poem, Poet and Poetry. "Spoken like a true poet..." "Those words were so poetic..." "The poetry of her words..." I myself have referred to Joni's "poetry." Often in fact. She writes with imagination, guile, wit, intelligence, command, beauty. -All of the things that make for poetry. Good poetry even. But there's a subtle distinction I've been arguing here. That at some point there IS a separation from the broad term and conception we have, to the Art form so many great minds have devoted their lives to. I respect my boyfriend's take on poetry out of a respect for his lifelong devotion to learning and understanding the craft. If you have a tumor on your back, you're better off asking a professional. You may not always get the correct diagnosis, but your odds are far greater than asking a grease monkey down the block. As an artist who has devoted his life to the study and craft of Art, my opinions on Joni's art has a bit more informed weight than my boyfriend. You give a kid a lovely imported French goat cheese, a bottle of Cline wine, and sourdough bread and you're likely to be faced with a squenched up nose in disapproval. They'd pick kool-aid and pbj's instead. -Some tastes are developed, refined and informed . Certainly there is no need to define Poetry. It will live on as happily as a lark if you do or don't. In fact the definition any of us would offer will more likely say something about us and what we believe than it might say about poetry. I do believe, even if you refuse to play the game and define the term, there is a logic structure somewhere within you that dictates your reaction to the things you read around you... When you walk into a bookstore and pick something off the shelf, that internal logic system is kicking into gear. All I'm suggesting is to examine it. You may say you have no definition of Poetry but I don't believe that's true. You do believe something on the subject, otherwise how you feel about things would sway and vary from day today. Today Joni is Poetry. Tomorrow, Joni is not. -I don't think your mind works that way. There is a consistency to your thought process. (Logical or not.) So, what is that thing? Ok, so you pick up a book and some of the lines are beautiful and poetic. Does that make it Poetry? And if on page fifty you are fearful for the hero life, does it suddenly become a Horror Novel as well? And if there's some spectulative sentences, is the whole transformed into a Science Fiction novel? "What are you reading?" "It's a poem, Horror Novel, Western, Science fiction Romance Epic with a touch of..." Ok, so the book has some poetic passages. Spoken like a true poet. -That doesn't make it 'Poetry': Art form. See section B9 in your local Barnes and Nobel. So the book has a LOT of poetic passages. It might win it a Pulitzer, but it's still prose. At some point blurring the line blurs the meaning of the form it is and the form you're comparing it to. OK, this thread is about cooked. Pass the plates and let's serve this baby up! -Happy Thanksgiving. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:49:04 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: awww In a message dated 11/24/2002 2:26:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: > Well now you're making me feel very sheepish about posting my *opinion* on > the subject in the first place. Now, don't be that way Mark! ;~) I asked you not to put you on the spot, but rather to tap into that sage-like wisdom of yours. And as always I appreciated your thoughtful comments. Bob NP: Smyle, "Woodstock" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:50:37 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC new in town And a big South Carolina "hey" back to ya, DF! When you feel like it, give us some more info about you and how you came to Joni. Bob PS: I'm impressed, you even put an NJC on your very first post! :~) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:54:39 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: where is Herbie Hancock? In a message dated 11/24/2002 5:21:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, davidsapp@peoplepc.com writes: > He's mixed in the > background with the orchestra, not up front like Shorter. > Pity...it was the same on BSN. Why use a major player like Herbie (unless he volunteered or wanted to work for scale) when you just bury him under all the strings? Anyway, thanks David & Randy! I could find Waldo in those books easier than I could locate Herbie in this collection! ;~) Bob NP: Panic Painters, "Peoples Parties" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:45:05 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: NJC November 25rh !!!! DBF coming out of retirement to wish: Brian Gross a very happy birthday! You're such a wondeful man Brian, and I'm so happy that you found the love of your life. Mags, you give that man of yours lots of spankingsl He's such a sweetie. Love, ex DBF Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:00:32 -0800 From: "gene mock" Subject: sacramento bee review TRAVELOGUE Joni Mitchell Nonesuch Records **** (Four Stars!!!) " Joni Mitchell says she's not going to write any new songs. To be a singer-songwriter today, she says, she'd have to get hair extensions and hire a choreographer. And she's not going to do that. Instead, what she's done is hire a 70-piece orchestra and a brilliant arranger/conductor named Vince Mendoza. With creative direction from Mitchell's longtime producer and bassist Larry Klein, her songs have been recast in lush settings of strings and woodwinds. The music, in flawless harmony with the influential singer's now lustrously mature voice and the imagistic stories of her songs, makes "Travelogue" a soothing bittersweet wonder. Mendoza, a creative mover between progressive pop and jazz circles for the last few years, arranged strings for Bjork on her "Vespertine" and also worked on bassist Charlie Haden"s "American Beauty" release. Here, he works with songs from throughout Mitchell's career, including "Dawntreader" from her first, quiet folky album, "Song to a Seagull," through later, more sophisticated songs such as "Amelia," "Heijra' and "Sex Kills." There are 22 songs in all on the two discs recorded at George Martin's Air Studios. Regular Mitchell accomplices such as soprano saxophonist Wayne Shorter, pianist Herbie Hancock and drummer Brian Blade also are o hand. Shorter's darting soprano is the album's most expressive voice beyond Mitchell's. The album continually rises to climaxes that are grand yet intimate in songs such as "You Dream Flat Tires," "Refuge of the Roads" and "Sex Kills." Mitchell closes the album with one of her first recorded songs. 19966's "The Circle Game." The pensive take emphasizes the song's delicate balance of innocence and maturity, and the fleeting nature of time in our lives. Like the album, it's aching in its beauty and honesty." Marcus Crowder Bee Staff Writer Sacramento Bee Sacramento, Calif. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:30:20 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: NJC Re: awww > I asked you not to put you on the spot, but rather to tap into that sage-like > wisdom of yours. Now you're *really* making me feel ridiculous. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:37:23 -0500 From: Janet Hess Subject: Re: norah jones/tanita tikaram njc This is one of those "six degrees" things, I suppose: I first came across Tanita Tikaram because of Mark Isham. If I remember correctly (and chances are good that I don't, because old farts often don't), she sang on his CD "Mark Isham." Again, what I seem to remember is that the CD won a Grammy for, so help me, New Age music...this was back in the late 80s or early 90s, I think. So before I knew there was an Isham-Mitchell connection I was onto the Isham-Tikaram connection. Again, this old fart remembers that Mark Isham was featured on at least one of her CDs, too. Cheerz, Janet and Deanna Ivy the Wonderkitty, one of whom would not even consider answering to the term Old Fart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:33:12 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: awww colin wrote: > > > > > > She becomes strongly defensive, and seems to > >feel her work should not be questioned. > > > i don't see why it should be questioned. fine to like or not like but > the rest is insignificant. why would any of us have the right to > question anybody about any art they have produced? there is art I like > and art i don't like. i wouldn't have the gall to question those whp > roduced the stuff i don't like! But why do you like or not like something? Get specific and you are critiquing. If you say you like something, or don't like it, you are giving it a thumbs up or thumbs down, just like a critic. You're just not saying why. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:48:57 -0500 From: vince Subject: Best Movie of the Year 2003 njc Alfonso Cuaron is directing the next Harry Potter. May not seem like news, but Cuaron is the director of Y Tu Mama Tambien. For those handful of people who saw YTMT, picture our little Potter boy and Ginny, and Ron Weasley and Hermione reaching their teen age years and having some Tenoch, Julio, and Luisa type road trips adventures! The mind boggles! Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:06:02 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: NJC November 25rh !!!! Yo Bri Hope you have a wonderful birthday and you were having a mini Joni gathering this weekend were you not??? We want all the dirt! Love Paz on 11/24/02 5:45 PM, FMYFL@aol.com at FMYFL@aol.com wrote: > DBF coming out of retirement to wish: > > Brian Gross a very happy birthday! > > You're such a wondeful man Brian, and I'm so happy that you found the love of > your life. > > Mags, you give that man of yours lots of spankingsl He's such a sweetie. > > Love, > ex DBF > Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:08:16 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Art criticism - why? Art criticism has existed for centuries, whether it was literature, opera or painting under the blade. Why are some pieces ridiculed and others lauded as perfection? I think it's because there is an underlying desire in all of us to conform, to know what's "hot and what's not." It's taken on a life of its own in today's culture, with movies, albums, plays, television shows, fashion, you name it. People want to know what it's okay to like and what it's okay to hate. It also creates "borderlines" (every bristling shaft of pride, church or nation, team or tribe...) and adds to our definition of ourselves. "We like this and they don't. They like that and we don't." It keeps us in our neat little camps and breeds camaraderie - that's why we're all here, isn't it? I think we'd be hard pressed to find a major supporter of Britney Spears on this list, and even if there was one, he or she would think twice before coming out of the closet about it. Because, as critics (and we are all critics!), we have defined Britney Spears as a lesser artist than Joni Mitchell. And, she is a lesser artist than Joni Mitchell - it's just a fact of life. But who defines that? Would a 16 year-old fan of Britney agree with that evaluation or would she defend Britney to the end and denigrate Joni in the process? Borderlines, baby. Borderlines. In any case, criticism is here to stay. People read it. People love it. In fact, many people need it to steer themselves through the arts. It is the arts, after all, that seem to draw the most criticism and that's for a reason - it's because it is such an elusive blend of emotionality, sensuality, intellect, psychology and sociology - it's not easily grasped. Art critics, movie critics, food critics, music critics, tv critics, fashion critics all exist because people want to know about the given artistic medium, and more importantly, what to think of it, whether it's worthy of praise or not. Critics, though, are mostly self-made. There is no training school for critics. That is both frightening and a relief. It means that "real" people can be critics and it's understood that the more one critiques, the more he becomes an expert on any given subject, which isn't necessarily true. This is why listening or reading criticism must always be done with skepticism and with the understanding that it always comes down to individual taste. There are not that many office furniture critics, although they probably do exist because people will always want "expert" advice on everything: "Is it okay to like this?" Yes, it is. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:17:49 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Travelogue review - painful! Here's one of these "real-people" critics telling it like he sees it. It's from Amazon.com. He gives the album one star out of five and titles his piece, "Hey, Joni, have another cigarette!" - ---- Three words: Save Your Money. It's hard to believe these strained croakings emanate from a woman who once had such a gorgeous voice. I know there are zillions of fans who will disagree, but listening to this album is too painful for me. Joni may be bursting with creativity and great ideas, but you have to wonder about someone who has destroyed their vocal cords on purpose with a lifetime of chain-smoking. I think her next CD should be a tribute to Tom Waits, since she is sounding more and more like him. Pitiful! Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:35:08 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: NJC November 25th a year later Wishing our Kentucky Ansel Adams aka Lama a very happy birthday.... with love from the canuckian bday faerie and her birthday boi. as you would say Lama....mwah!!! :-) You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:09:21 +0800 (PHT) From: Subject: Re: DEATH AND THE MAIDEN NJC Thanks for the additional info, Mike. Didn't know there was a controversy about Dorman's play. I heard that Glenn Close was next to incandescent during the Broadway run of this play. She was ably supported by Gene Hackman and Richard Dreyfuss. I did read something funny about an April 1 performance of DEATH AND A MAIDEN on Broadway. When the performance was about to start, there was an announcement that Glenn Close, Richard Dreyfuss and Gene Hackman will not perform that night. As if on cue, more than half of the audience rose to leave the hall. Then, came an "April Fools Day" addition. They laughingly went back to their seats and were immediately quiet. But not the performers. When Glenn Close came out, she was visibly giggling and they had to stop and do it again. > I love this movie and also wonder what Judi Davis would have done with > Paulina's part. Trivia moment: The play was produced here in Barcelona > some years ago and the writer (Ariel Dorfman) threatened to withdraw > performing rights if the director refused to change his (the > director's) ending which went contrary to the writer's ending. Without > spoiling the ending I'll just say that the theatrical version here > ended, like the film, with the 3 protagonists listening to 'Death and > the Maiden' but then a shot rings out in the concert hall. Big > controversy here over it and I think that the director initially > refused to change his version but eventually did. Any of you guys out > there have any opinions on that? The only other real case of Stockholm Syndrome I know was Patricia Hearst and her captors. When she was kidnapped, she was brainwashed and she later called herself Tanya -- 180 degrees different from the Patty Hearst before. In literature I remember Anne Tyler's "Earthly Possessions" about a married woman who was kidnapped by a younger guy. It was made into a movie with Susan Sarandon and Brad Douriff or something. > And before I go, and thinking of the Stockholm Syndrome, I went to > dinner the other night with someone originally from Argentina and she > knows of a couple living here in bcn, he a torturer and his wife the > former victim. Weird or what? Serious question. Joseph in Manila ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:36:04 -0500 From: vince Subject: art criticism Why? Because njc Criticism in the arts is as old as the arts. The teaching of critical analysis of various fields of art - and other things - is taught, and has been since recorded history, and was certainly all the craze as far back as Aristotle and "Poetics." A critical review is an important review, in one sense of the word, as in "this is of critical importance." And critical views (as opposed to fawning reviews, ignorant reviews, puffery reviews) is of vital importance - shall I say, critical importance - to the study of the arts. I rely on critics to evaluate what I want to buy, see, or experience. I have certain reviewers that I go to for certain things -Blair Kanin on architecture, for example, the New Yorker and Michael Wilmington of the Chicago Tribune for movies, Greg Kot of the Trib for concerts... Read a critic enough and you know the standards and biases of the critic. I could tell in two sentences from a Gene Siskel review if I wanted to see the movie or not, regardless of his opinion, because I knew what he looked for and what I look for and my experience of Siskel allowed me to make an informed decision. Critics know a lot more than I do about the subject at hand, where I am really subjective, I trust their professional expertise. I may search out a number of reviews, or sometimes, am content with one, depending on my needs, but if I really want to know about something, I check many reviews. I learn a great deal that way. (And what have all of the posts on T'log been but critical reviews of the album?) Of course there are crappy reviewers out there, and each reviewer has their places where I know my perspective differs. There a few bad drivers out there too but I am not going to suggest that we ban all driving. Reading Pauline Kael, Stanley Kaufman, and Gene Siskel taught me so much about cinema... Blair Kanin on architecture is an education in each review... As far as criticism, are we confusing this with nasty words said by someone who doesn't like us with a critical evaluation? Never then go see a movie with me, for I do a critical commentary on every movie I see as I leave the theater. (Me: I thought that plot was weak. Gage: Yes, it made no sense.) (An outstanding moment in my life was with Gage's father, Jeremy went to see Beverly Hills Cop II when he was maybe 9 or 10 and came home and said, "dad, you were right, the movie sucked. It was a series of disconnected scenes." Bingo, kid, you got it!) If someone attends a worship service that I take part in, I want critical commentary on me. Did I make sense? Did I present well? Did I perform well? Were my words and gestures and style real and sincere or wooden and forced? Did I speak too fast? Did I start talkin like a Chicagoan an drop the ends off of de wurds in a flat Chicago accent? The best sermon criticism I ever had, someone said, "good sermon but your views on [that subject] are myopic." Well, upon further examination, my views were indeed myopic! Thank God for the critical commentary! We had a sermon criticism class in seminary - we'd videotape ourselves and with the class review our performance, and if anyone saw me at the beginning (not that anyone has seen me now) you'd be as glad as I am that I had that class. Any service now to this day that is videotaped, I want to see to critically evaluate my performance. That is how I improve! And I bet every performing artist in the JMDL does the same thing with tapes and reviews from friends. We ask for, we desire, we lust for, we need criticism, reaction, our own critical analysis, so that we can improve. When I served as a chaplain at the U of Michigan Medical Center, we had small groups called IPR groups in which we would critique each other's interactions with patients. Damn did I learn a lot! It was essential to my growth in being a very good pastoral visitor now, and having learned the verbatim/critical response process, I can "IPR" myself on every visit and see where I missed something, where my approach was wrong, where I wasn't listening, where I said something that mattered to the patient. Last Stones tour they were roundly criticized for formula performing. They took it to heart. The current tour is amazing, and I doubt it would have been had it not been for the reviews that suggested that Rolling Stones, Inc. was selling a tired corporate product. The current tour is far improved. I learned so much in life reading book reviews, I can't imagine where I'd be today without those little seminars each week. In last Sunday's Chicago Tribune, an excellent review on Charles Bowden's Down By the River, a book on the drug cartels and their interdependency with the political aristocracy of Mexico, followed by a review on a subject of which i knew less than I do now,. the pioneering role of women in social activism in Chicago in the post Chicago Fire period which set the stage for Jane Adams and Hull House and a total re-definition of what it meant to assist those in need. As far as studying criticism, any good school with a cinema department will have classes in criticism. Hell, in seminary, I studied Biblical textual criticism, historical criticism, redaction criticism, among others, all vital to understanding the Scriptures and unlocking passages and solving those passages which seemingly make no sense and finding depths of meaning. Art criticism - a subject unto itself and I learned art appreciation by reading the critics and reviewers. Criticism is not trash talking. Criticism is a good thing. Of course it can be done meanly, in spite, and that perhaps happens far more in our personal lives than in our public lives. We have all been trash talked to the point of pain and tears and we can all cite reviews that just plain are no good. But that does not negate the essential and positive role that critical study, critical reviews, play in our own growth and understanding of ourselves and the arts. The simple sentence: Joni Mitchell is ______________ artist. Whatever you put there, is a critical comment. Which recorded version of Woodstock do we like best? The answer is a critical study of her various versions - not that critical means negative, it simply means a thoughtful examination based on one's knowledge, insights, and feelings. And because each critical review is not only objective ("her jazziest version") it is also subjective, and thus, I need either one very skilled critic whom I can rely upon (I know the biases and the amount of knowledge and can make my own judgment accordingly) or we need 800 critics to give us a body of critical studies from which to draw. And has not each of us had our understandings of T'log enhanced by the number of critical (not negative, but evaluative) comments posted on these boards? When I write something important I circulate the text amongst people I trust and beg for, pled for critical comments, not just proof reading, but critical comments. And, for example, on my last paper, Laurent found a serious flaw in my application of a descriptive word on a series of events that indeed not all of them fit that description. Since on that description my paper rises or falls, Laurent's critical comment (not negative, but critical, evaluative) was essential to fixing a fatal flaw in the paper, as well as challenge me on some too easy assumption I made and forced me to think and rethink in that area - so it was all good. The critical process is essential to the production of good work. (Another friend made some critical comments that were less than insightful and I noted them but the impacted nothing. Not all criticism is equally valid. And the friend who contributed nothing to me this time has made wonderful contributions through criticism in the past, and will again, i hope.) Last word; I did a public prayer at a community Thanksgiving service which brought together two communities that never do anything together. I worked very hard to work in some humor - ever try to write a prayer with humor in it and not make the prayer a joke? - with some simple jump points that would cause a sudden inversion of the symbol so that a new meaning would be lifted up: i.e., we give thanks not for what we have or want, but rather, we give thanks for what God has: us. So here is me, flaming leftist, with my prayer with humor that inverts the old understandings for new meanings and I got knowing laughs (no one laughs during prayer, it was a milestone new achievement and I loved it as the humor was not in the joke which didn't exist but in the irony of human life that is funny), a few humorous quips from the congregation (at least they were involved in the prayer!) and accomplished my goal of waking every one up to hang onto my next word rather than snooze through another typical, boring thanksgiving prayer. Then I did several symbol inversions, ending with the major symbol inversion re-emphasized as *the* point. Results: the very conservative preacher made a point of my "great prayer" and two rather conservative pastors commented that they loved my familiar, easy way of talking to God in public prayer as if it were a real conversation and not church talk (aha! I did it!) as well as grab common symbols from the gathered community that made the prayer about their reality, not about "spiritual" things (aha! I did it!) and the other conservative pastor said it was "really God-centered" which indeed was the attempt with the inversion of symbols. So I got reinforcing critical comments. Which was cool. And had someone pointed out something that could have ben better, where my attempt did not work as well as I had hoped, that would have been valuable as well so that I can improve my ability to do this. Long and boring, but I feel compelled to support the good and utterly essential role that critical evaluation, critical comments, critical reviews play in improving and understanding the arts and public performance. the ever boring (self criticism at its finest) Vince PS I would affirm that Britney Spears is a major talent, and a better talent, in the world of dance tunes usable in aerobics classes - a sub category of music in which she excels and Joni sucks, unless Joni is big time re-mixed and not always then. Will Britney last? I think not. But she has her niche, and she does her niche art well. The fact that other than its application in aerobics I have little use for it is just a factor of my life. The critical study of office furniture is a major concern of Herman Miller, located about 30 miles from me, where criticism of function, structure, lay out, and ergonomics of office furniture allows them to improve their products. Many people are in that field, critically analyzing office furniture, and every time I set in my new office chair, I am thankful. And I look to those people with a key to getting the feng shi of my office right. too. more boring - that's me! art cri ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #521 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)