From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #520 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, November 24 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 520 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- [none] ["greenstudio" ] Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. [johnirving ] Those Golden Eggs - (No Serious Joni Content) ["flopit" ] TheTimes, The Telegraph and The Independent ["William" ] Re: This Flight Tonight [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: awww [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] T;LOG on NPR [vince ] Re: norah jones/tanita tikaram njc [Susan Guzzi ] DEATH AND THE MAIDEN NJC ["mike pritchard" ] lyrics vs poetry ["flopit" ] Pretty Lies ["Suzanne MarcAurele" ] Re: joni as a poet [WARREN901@aol.com] Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. ["J.David Sapp" ] Re: awww ["Mark Connely" ] Larry Klein's Invisible Ink [KJHSF@aol.com] awww ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: awww ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Larry Klein's Invisible Ink [David Marine Subject: [none] regarding : "I am partnered with a Poet. (He just handed me that passage, btw...) With over 200,000 books in the house (!!!), I can't move from room to room without tripping over Poetry in one form or another. From the early Greeks to the most contemporary writers, he's read it all. I know exactly what HE would say if I asked him if Joni were a poet. I would get that same look I get when he wanders by the tv set when I'm watching Star Trek, and they characters are speaking space speak: "Captain, the triambic radiation is interfering with the targetting scanners..." Actually, he didn't effort a grunt when I posed the question to him." I would trust his informed judgement." I too am "partnered with a poet" whatever the hell that means. He doesn't own quite 200,000 books mind you, but then neither did Proust. He's had to sit through a lot of Joni over the years and I've had to sit through more than my share of Marcus Aurelius. These are luxury compromises one makes over breakfast in love...these are not primary concerns in a refugee camp. I've always thought of Joni as an excellent pedestrian poet, that is pedestrian in the best sense. Her words run through people's heads as they walk along. They don't feel so alone. It's not the kind of thing I'd put in a mission statement for a grant proposal but in my heart of hearts I believe it to be one of the finer goals of art. I'm a painter and a writer. I've found that most people call what they like "art". Few have the generosity of spirit to recognise a lack in them selves when they fail to be moved by what is generally thought of as a "great work". Subjectivity is rampant, dear. But I'm not prepared to trust your room mate's informed judgement about what qualifies as a work of art any more than I'd trust my own artist in residence in the matter. for Chrissakes. I blame Ashara.... r. green visit our poetic if pedestrian website at: http://www3.sympatico.ca/greenstudio/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:10:40 -0600 From: johnirving Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. David Marine wrote: > on 11/23/02 6:17 AM, johnirving at johnirving@tbcnet.com wrote: > > > > The essence of poetry is verbal and conceptual density. > > Whose definition is this, John? Why do you say this? Hi David. The definition is entirely my own, and merely a reflection of my comprehension of the form. Looking at it from a distance. It is the broadest definition I could come up with, since it's difficult to define Poetry when it comes in so many forms: formal and structured, haiku, free verse... etc. etc. I'm certain there are better definitions more brilliant, literate men can offer that would broadly categorize the form AND explain it. -I'm simply doing the best "I" can watching from the wings. But I definitely stand by this definition, as it seems to me just as an artist picks up a medium and proceeds to be visual, an essential element of Poetry is picking up the medium (language and words) and doing something with it, particularly something that makes prose prose or not prose. I assume the difference between plain speak (a conversation) is it is by nature 'free flowing and unstructured.' And prose hammers that down a bit. Well, Poetry seems to hammer prose down as well. Hence my view of it as 'condensation.' I've read a lot of poetry, care of Mr. Rice. Really, really good stuff. And the over arching element I can find between a Haiku and free verse is how articulate and careful the author has been with words. Careful in a way that would never pass go in normal conversation OR prose. If Poetry is obtuse, it is because it's so damn literate! People don't 'think out loud' that well. Poems may or may not rhyme, may or may not have rhythmic patterns, etc. etc. but to the best of my knowledge I've never seen one that wasn't succulently precise in it's language. Repetedly, the breath of that carefully chosen language is stunning! So the best defining bridge I know between the archaic classical forms and the modern is this careful compression of thought and word play both shared. -If you know of a better, defining commonality I'd love to hear it and I'll re-define my definition. For now, I prefer my definition as all poetry "seems" to share it, and at the same time it is a definition open ended enough to allow for all types of poetry to arrise from it. > > > Perhaps. As a poet and a longtime reader of poetry, I find the book very > satisfying. Granted, I would guess that readers of Schiller may find > something lacking when they read "Ode to Joy." Yes, it's the Beethoven that > is missing. But it's still a poem. No arguement from me that you find Joni satisfying. That's personal. But what you haven't done is DEFINE poetry or DEFINE WHY The Complete Poems IS poetry. Right or wrong, I have put a definition of poetry on the table: a poem is a literary form that compresses thought and word into it's most (at least hoped for) exacting wordplay as the author can produce. Once I make an a prior statement, nothing is 'relative' to it. It has a position. Right or wrong. True, my a priori statement is itself relative. But once one makes the effort to define a position, then everything falls in place in relation to it. The work, after that point is to defend the a prior statement and it's proofs against the known. and example: a priori statement: "Winter is horrible!!!" Relative to that, lots of things are no longer relative. Cold weather is horrible. Living in Minneapolis in January is horrible. Living in Arizona is grand. a priori statement: "Winter is wonderful, I love the snow. Skiing. The change of seasons..." Relative to that, Living in Minneapolis is January is wonderful. Arizona is the pits. Either a priori statement has truths that contradict it. For the first, the joy of being outdoors building a snow man, then coming in for a hot cup of cocoa. For the second, having to shovel 12 feet of heavy, drifting snow is a pain in the arse. Each a priori statement is called to task to 'defend' it's truth. But relative to itself, it is a TRUTH of it's own where nothing is 'relative' to it. I have put my a priori statement of what is poetry on the table. -The table is yours: 1. What is poetry? and 2. How does The Complete Lyrics fit that definition? Of course, my a priori definition also goes one step further in that it gives me a measuring tool for what makes a good poem (excellence of compression), and what makes bad. -WHY is Complete lyrics good, satisfying poetry besides "I find it satisfying." because on the face of it, saying "I find it satisfying." is really the height of 'personal border.' > > > > > > Actually, he didn't effort a grunt when I posed the question to him. > > Perhaps you could ask him again. And if he says that she is not a poet, > might you ask him to explain why he believes that? I will try to catch him in a good mood and pose the question... > > I would venture to say that many would prefer Joni's poetry to that of > Meredith or Justice (or my favorite, Ashberry). The truth is that their > poetry is rarely read outside of academic circles. The truth is, in fact, > that poetry is rarely read these days at all. Much of it is simply too > abstruse for the average reader. For most people today, the poems of their > everyday lives are written as lyrics. Again, 'preference' is relative. The real meat and potatoes is to nail down and define the a priori definition BEHIND the preference. That's the problem with the negative reviews we've been reading of T'log. -If this CD is sour music, I'd love for these authors to present me with better music and define why T'log doesn't compare! > > > I do understand the distinction that you and Franklin are attempting to make > between poetry and lyrics, between Joni's writing and that of contemporary > academic poets. But the distinction is specious. It's all poetry. Define poetry. Define good poetry. Here's one of my own poems: (from years ago... apologies, apologies... I was young and did not know better...) Is it good poetry? As good as Joni's? Zephyr gas on 8th street hires All-American grass cutters. Sells wonderbread and Coke. Where gas jockeys mull about antiquated islands in wait of cars. Plain. Wholesome. Clean cut. Across billboards hung over the Share Oil Co. lot Streams of gold sun delight an otherwise indolent bluesy morning. We sell Diesel. Quality at a Savings. Zephyr Oil and Gas by mornings early light. From under a Dodger blue cap Kurt gazes up at me. Even under a clear sky shadows relief his tanned skin Jack Dandy face As with this lot and highway view muted blues and white highlights. Kurt is all grinning innocence Lank blond hair Thin reddish lips. Small Town Middle America Zephyr. Service my dreams. > > > > As a painter, the peers her equal or > > better, just in the southern Cal area alone would populate a small city. > > (Not to cast dispersions on her art. Just a statement of how many good > > artists there are out there doing good stuff.) > > If my math is correct, that would mean that there are about 70 million > painters worldwide producing pieces that are "downright magnificent." Not really... you have to allow for density. Major population centers have more 'Artistes' than other areas... I'd put the number, in the U.S. at 200, 000. Allowing that there are a million working artists (people who make a living at art) and assuming that a quarter of them are worth their salt. That's not allowing for the non working artists... > > > > I would rather contempate her work for what it is: Popular song raised to it's > > highest zeinith. > > You mean like the Iliad? Yeah! Like the Iliad. And Volvos. And Brandy Alexanders... things that are good. > > > This all comes down to the ongoing dialogue about high art vs. popular art. > Everyone draws his or her own borderlines. I'm open to whatever comments you > want to make about Joni's or anyone's work. But the argument that Poetry or > Painting can only exist within one's own personal borders does not advance > understanding, IMO. No. No. No. If there is any great need in the world now it is exactly THIS discussion. The problem with the world isn't borderlines. The problem, and reason nothing substanitive gets done is everyone is reacting to a priori statements without ever examing their a priori statements and holding them up to the harsh light of day. Every bit of reasoning they make flows from this point. What isn't being questioned, or even defined is the point itself. Everyone is defending Borders without any examination the what or why they are defending the thing. George Bush firmly believes he is on a moral ground to defend our national security. Well, if his ground is so moral, and so focused on defense, why would he allow the military to kick out 9 Arabic interpretors (forgive my spelling, it's late), -why would he allow 9 interpretors be kicked out of the millitary simply because they are gay? Especially given the hue and cry that 9-11 happened because we didn't have enough interpretors at work to sift through the billions of bits of information out there... Rest our poor little hearts that we are at least safe enough to allow for some home grown discrimination... "Whew!" --This is a moral position??? This is in the best interest of national security??? Of course he thinks it's moral. (He's allowing it isn't he? And I doubt he considers himself to be a man to do the opposite of what he feels is moral...) Because some a priori statement, belief about gays and their rights, or lack thereof, allows for this position. -The problem is he will never questions the a priori statement to begin with. I don't think it's enough to just rely on feelings or simply say, "It's all relative." To say, 'Everything is relative; you have your position I have mine." is meaningless. Life demands something more than being wishy washy. There is too much at stake. We deperately need a priori positions. My take on the world: Truth exists outside of humanity. For the most part, we can only infere it. But we are gifted with the ability to grope in the dark and make our best stab at truth. Sometimes we're right. Sometimes we're wrong. Nothing wrong with being wrong so long as we're willing to be 'relative' in our position to correct it. But we DO need to define it. And once defined, nothing is relative to it. So long as our "Truth" is continuously held to the highest possible scrutiny, there is always hope of being 'Right.' Define and defend. The world will heal and rise when self-examination becomes a positive attribute. Define and defend poetry. I would certainly be happy to define and defend T'log against any reviewer. -How's that for taking the easy out? Peace. John. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:08:20 -0800 From: "flopit" Subject: Those Golden Eggs - (No Serious Joni Content) cant believe im the first to get this one right!!! shes saying that if she had testicles shed(hed??) be worth a whole lot more money :-) ron np-richard thompson-time will show the wiser ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 05:20:57 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: My 2 Scents on the 'Louge In a message dated 11/24/2002 1:21:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, kate@katebennett.com writes: > have you listened > to it in the dark, with no distractions, just letting yourself go where the > music takes you...because this record really takes me on a visual journey, > if i let it....it's cinematic... > Well, I've listened to it in the car on a late night drive through the flatness of central Ohio. I think listening to music while driving is one of life's great pleasures. But, IMHO, there's more cinematic-ness in Paprika Plains than in any part of Travelogue. I don't hate the music by any means and it has some beautiful moments, like when Joni sings in TLTISR "get my gorgeous wings and fly-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y away..." boy she just nails that! But what is good about Travelogue is what Joni originally wrote--the Mendoza additions do nothing for me. When the orchestra is playing themes contained in the music as Joni wrote it i.e. the harp in Refuge which copies note for note the guitar picking therein, it soars. But the musical ideas that Mendoza incorporates either muddy the composition or irritate. Has anyone been bothered by the fact that nearly every time a bird is mentioned in the lyrics, Mendoza had the trite idea to have a bunch of flutes make birdlike music? I just don't get the impression that the ideas of her cohorts are on the same level as her own. Think about how much Jaco brought to the compositions on Hejira--my God, Refuge of the Roads was a revelation with her voice interwoven with his sweeping bass lines. Very little of Travelogue works that well for me. I certainly do not hate this record, but I don't see myself listening to it straight through a great deal. Would I go see her do this stuff live, you bet! And, in the context of a live album performance (I do believe it was all recorded live, correct?) it is certainly impressive. Ken and I second Mark's nomination of Rickie Lee Jones as a poet ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:53:23 -0800 From: "flopit" Subject: norah jones/tanita tikaram njc hi susan guzzi wrote >>>>>Ravi Shankar was a sitar player & friend of George Harrison. He often toured and recorded with George. <<<< i nearly fell of my bike recently. coming home from work & theres a sign on a lamppost in my street advertising a local appearance by ravi shankar. unfortunately there was no mention of music (or his daughter) it all seemed to be about yoga/meditation/religion so shallow me didnt bother didnt bother... >>>>And thanks Colin - hope she turns out to be a good one long term. I remember a singer back in the very late 80's maybe 90, Tanita Tikarim, who had a great debut album and then I never heard from her again. Has anyone else?! <<<< she brought out a great debut, followed it up with a whole string of consistently good album (personal faourite of mine is "eleven kinds of loneliness" where she sings with what sounds almost like a speech impediment and does some stunning songs like "heal you" & "to drink the rainbow". an artist worth listening to if youre into intelligent, self written lyrics, unusual & beautiful vocals, and original, individual arrangements - gee - wonder if theres anyone here that likes that kind of music :-) just stay clear of her latest, dreadful, "cappucino songs"... ron np-tanita tikaram-Elephant ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:53:53 -0000 From: "William" Subject: TheTimes, The Telegraph and The Independent Not sure if these have been posted or catalogued as yet, but here they are anyway. From 'TIMES ON LINE'' November 22nd. With everyone from Robbie Williams to Rod Stewart recording albums of jazz standards, it takes Joni Mitchell, the grande dame of the Woodstock generation, to show what can really be achieved when pop takes on the orchestral formula. Travelogue (Nonesuch/eastwest) is an ambitious, double-CD collection in which Mitchell reworks 22 of her old songs into an orchestral tour de force. Accompanied by a 70-piece orchestra, a 20-voice choir and star band, she transforms numbers such as For the Roses and Slouching Towards Bethlehem into sombre slabs of melodrama, while coaxing a contrastingly relaxed swing out of other songs such as Be Cool and Hejira. From THE TELEGRAPH - The arts column: Joni bows out, integrity intact (Filed: 20/11/2002) Rupert Christiansen sings the praises of a real artist who has stayed true to herself and never sold out I have been listening passionately to Joni Mitchell for over 30 years now, and it's sad to think that her new album, Travelogue, released next week, may well be her last. The great Canadian troubadour is 59 this month, and the legacy of childhood polio, as well as decades of chain-smoking, have taken their toll. She rarely appears live nowadays, and publicly knocks the brutalities of the rock-and-roll machine with an abandon which suggests that she counts herself out of the loop, if not the competition. More significantly, she believes she has written pretty much all she wants to write and that she was never destined for music anyway - "I'm a painter who got sidetracked," she asserted in a recent interview. To dramatise this claim, the cover of her 1995 album Turbulent Indigo is a parody of a Van Gogh self-portrait, with her own face substituted for Vincent's. Her detractors sneer at such folie de grandeur, and there's no doubt that Joni has a high opinion of herself. (Nietzsche is among her favourite authors.) She can be hoity-toity with those she despises, and has unhesitatingly scorned the ersatz chanteuses, from Madonna downwards, who have attempted to pay her pathetic tribute. You can understand her irritation - her jealousy even. Joni has not sold out. Joni is not manufactured. "Show my tits? Grab my crotch? It's not my world," she roared, when asked why she was thinking of bowing out. Yes, Joni can call herself an artist - she's been true to herself rather than the market, and paid the price for her integrity. Travelogue is a fitting farewell to a wonderful career. Like her previous album, Both Sides Now, it's retrospective. As her former husband and constant collaborator Larry Klein explains in a sleeve note, this is "not a 'Greatest Hits with Orchestra' type of record". It aims higher than that, reinterpreting a range of her songs through a voice that has gravitated from reedy soprano to warm contralto and a sensibility that has moved from its roots in folk and beatnik culture, via jazz, world music and fusion, to end up in the warm embrace of symphonic wind, strings and brass. The tracks include reworkings of The Circle Game and Woodstock, two of the few songs of hers that have made any inroad on the charts. I still prefer them in their simpler original 1970 form on Ladies of the Canyon; there they have an emotional spontaneity that the older Joni has lost, and now you feel that she's just doodling over them. Other songs from the earlier albums - Blue, For the Roses, Court and Spark, The Hissing of Summer Lawns and Hejira - are more coherently jazzed up, with shorter phrases, sharper syncopation and more subtle colouring. I've always had trouble with Joni's work after the watershed of her late Seventies collaboration with Charlie Mingus. Under his sway, she started meandering melodically, and the poetic awkwardness that creeps into some of the lyrics in The Hissing of Summer Lawns ("Like a priest with a pornographic watch/Looking and longing on the sly") can turn into outright pretentiousness. But in Turbulent Indigo (1995) she recovered much of her old edgy grace, and her revision of that album's highlights, The Sire of Sorrows and Sex Kills, show her at her incomparable best - a bittersweet poet of human relationships and "the petty wars/That shell-shock love away", as well as a witty and forceful critic of the dreams and excesses of modern America. Is there a more haunting evocation of the heady evil of drug culture than Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire, or a more poignant riff on the vanity of worldly success than Free Man in Paris? Joni's influence has been profound. I'm not thinking just of her obvious impact on pop-song writers such as Elvis Costello, Beth Orton or P J Harvey, but on the wider musical world, too. The best of our younger composers, Mark-Anthony Turnage, has explored Joni's post-Mingus oeuvre and appreciates its virtues far more than I do; and America's two greatest classical divas, Renee Fleming and Lorraine Hunt Lieberson, have both told me that she was the inspiration of their youth. As I sit in the recital hall and opera house, I often find myself wishing that more aspiring classical singers could come out of their boxes and learn from the freedom, colour and expressivity of Joni Mitchell's artistry. From Independent Album: Joni Mitchell Travelogue (Nonesuch/Eastwest) 15 November 2002 Retaining the arranger/conductor Vince Mendoza from her standards album Both Sides Now, Joni Mitchell has re-recorded 22 of her old songs in new orchestral settings on this double-CD, in some cases transforming them entirely, although the contributions of saxist Wayne Shorter, in particular, provide a bridge to her earlier work. Despite its cool, sophisticated manner - try and imagine Steely Dan orchestrated by Leonard Bernstein - Travelogue is not a dinner-party album - it demands far too much of one's attention to languish discreetly in the background. The arrangements here are a far cry from the usual pallid tints and shades of orchestral pop: these are highly wrought, meticulously considered orchestrations in which each line - each word - is paid microscopically close attention, the subtleties of meaning in her lyrics reflected in an ever-changing flow of instrumental accents and details which can, in the more extreme cases, obscure the songs they serve. But mostly, the new settings open out the songs, accentuating the urban noir shadings of "Trouble Child", lending a darkly dramatic tone to the dystopian "Sex Kills", and generally illuminating the enduring intelligence and sophistication of Mitchell's writing throughout her career. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 07:58:33 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - Altman/Short Cuts In a message dated 11/24/2002 1:30:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, jpalis@kssp.upd.edu.ph writes: > Franklin, you have to watch SHORT CUTS, too. Its almost a pre-requisite > for people who love Altman. I second Robert's - er, Joseph's mention here. Short Cuts is my favorite Altman, though I would admit I'm not a faithful student as are other here. Plodding? I was riveted! Altman gets great performances where you least expect it (Huey Lewis, Lyle Lovett) and incredible performances elsewhere (Jennifer Jason-Leigh, Tim Robbins). When I rented this, it was on two cassettes. I was going to watch one and then the other the following night. No way - once I started I was hooked and had to see it through. Worth it just for the Lily Tomlin - Tom Waits scenes alone. Bob NP: Mimi Fox, "Joni Mitchell Medley" (wow!!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:01:22 -0000 From: "William" Subject: This Flight Tonight Oh yes and there was this also at http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=332696 Again, apologies if this is history, which it is ironically. Double Take: 'This Flight Tonight' - Joni Mitchell / Nazareth Robert Webb's guide to pop's most intriguing cover versions 13 September 2002 Joni Mitchell's album Blue, released in 1972, was an introspective affair. Shimmering in the album's tail-lights is "This Flight Tonight". Behind Mitchell's stripped-down jazz inflection and lonesome guitar, a pedal steel, courtesy of one Sneeky Pete, briefly miaows the sadness. Otherwise, it's just us and Joni and a vignette of stars burning up over the Las Vegas sands. "Oh, blackness, blackness dragging me down / Come on, light the candle in this poor heart of mine... Turn this crazy bird around / I shouldn't have got on this flight tonight." The Dunfermline hard-rockers Nazareth loved Blue. You remember them: the gap-toothed vocalist, Dan McCafferty, had hair like a kitchen scourer and a voice to match. They were bad, bad boys. Among the tracks on their 1973 album Loud'n'Proud, produced by the former Deep Purple bassist Roger Glover, is a taut version of "This Flight". "We used to listen to Joni as we were travelling round in the van," recalls Nazareth's bass-player, Pete Agnew. "'This Flight Tonight' was a big favourite." They were quick to see the song's potential to rock, took it into the studio and turned it on its head. "We only wanted to do cover versions on the basis that if you can change it enough, it becomes yours. If you can't change it, don't do it," Agnew says. Their bass-heavy version leaves Joni's crazy bird taxiing on the runway. Mitchell was impressed with the makeover: "When she was recording at A&M, we were just starting an American tour," explains Agnew. "We all happened to be in the studio the day the single was released, so we were introduced to her and told her what we had done. She said, 'What, with a rock band?'" Joni paid the Scottish band the greatest compliment after "This Flight Tonight" became a worldwide hit for them, touching down at No 11 in the UK. "She was playing a gig in London and told the audience: 'I'd like to open with a Nazareth song'!" recalls Agnew. Nazareth still play the song, loud and proud: "It's our finishing number." The latest version features on the band's new DVD, Homecoming, recorded live in Glasgow in 2001. Have a swell Sunday WtS ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:09:39 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: This Flight Tonight In a message dated 11/24/2002 8:02:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, willytheshake100@hotmail.com writes: > Their bass-heavy > version leaves Joni's crazy bird taxiing on the runway. > Hey thanks a ton for this one, Willy!! I remember when I first heard Nazareth's TFT on the radio & broke out into a big 'ol grin. They DO take it to a totally different place, and probably their sales alone made Joni a rich lady! Plus, as those who've been following the Covers series can attest, Nazareth's take has "inspired" many other metal bands to take on TFT, with mixed results. I was just listening to Doogie White's version yesterday (on the Nazareth tribute CD no less!). And I STILL think that Nancy Wilson, with her love for Joni, took that Nazareth guitar intro and fashioned her own "Barracuda" with it. Bob NP: Jerry Granelli/Jamie Saft: "Rainy Night House" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 07:52:32 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: awww In a message dated 11/24/2002 12:36:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: > But I really do get annoyed with critics who > publish in newspapers or magazines or give oral reviews on tv or radio who > are much more concerned with 'skewering' and making witty, scathing remarks > than they are with actually doing any kind of real analysis or constructive > criticism. Very valid point, Mark...sometimes the reviewer attempts so many one-liners and snide remarks that you can't tell if they even liked what they were reviewing! (I'm sure that I'm guilty of this crime my own self!) By the same token, we Joni fans tend to be very passionate about our feelings, especially where Joni is concerned. So I can understand when somebody gushes or skewers, even if I don't agree. But a question...if I make a suggestion that perhaps what Joni "should have done" on a track is..., is that not constructive criticism? I mean, I LOVE the brief passages that Billy Preston adds to "Flat Tires"!!! That new color is SO welcome, but I don't hear him anywhere else, and the B-3 (and Billy's energy) would have complemented some other cuts here as well. And where is Herbie Hancock? He's mentioned in every review, the only place he's missing is on the CD! I guess what I'm asking is - How would you define "constructive criticism" in this case? I guess I'm only asking so that I can do a better job of it. Bob NP: Eddie From Ohio, "Big Yellow Taxi" PS: My favorite "snide" review was one that Rex Reed wrote - he simply said "No." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:55:32 -0500 From: vince Subject: T;LOG on NPR PBS Master documentary on Joni will be aired next spring and I know this because ut was just announced as I was preparing to type this having just heard T'log praised as one of the best albums and recommended top buy as Christmas gift on NPR's annual segment for this purpose. Much praise given to T'log, too, and then the off hand comment on the master documentary! Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 07:00:04 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: norah jones/tanita tikaram njc > Ron wrote: > i nearly fell of my bike recently. coming home from work & theres a > sign on a lamppost in my street advertising a local appearance by ravi > shankar. unfortunately there was no mention of music (or his daughter) it > all seemed to be about yoga/meditation/religion so shallow me didnt bother > didnt bother... > Well, I did get to see Ravi in concert once. ZZZZZZzzzzzzz! Oh what was I saying? I saw him on George Harrison's first solo tour in America ... back in the late 70's? I love the sound of a sitar but he so dominated the show I was a bit bored. George pretty much gave him a huge chunk of the show. I won't be running to see him any time soon either .... but his daughter on the other hand - yes I'm running! > In reference to Tanita Tikaram, Ron wrote: > she brought out a great debut, followed it up with a whole string of > consistently good album (personal faourite of mine is "eleven kinds of > loneliness" where she sings with what sounds almost like a speech > impediment and does some stunning songs like "heal you" & "to drink the > rainbow". an artist worth listening to if youre into intelligent, self > written lyrics, unusual & beautiful vocals, and original, individual > arrangements - gee - wonder if theres anyone here that likes that kind of > music :-) > Well I did know she put out one or two others, but I never heard one cut on the radio or saw any promotion at all. Now my best friend, who has a pretty good music collection, tells me she has one or two of her follow-ups. So Thanksgiving I will be confiscating those while she is cooking! Hell she still has my roasting pan from about 12 Thanksgivings ago! I love the the title of that one song you mentioned - "To Drink the Rainbow." I seem to recall comparisons to Joni, as far as writing and insight, when her debut came out. And I recall Joni being listed as one of her mentors. By the way, she was only 19 when "Ancient Hearts" debuted. I couldn't believe she was so young. > > just stay clear of her latest, dreadful, "cappucino songs"... > I doubt I could find it anyway! Thanks for the update Ron. Peace, Susan NP: Tanita Tikaram/He Likes The Sun Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:38:36 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: DEATH AND THE MAIDEN NJC >>she was originally tapped to play Paulina is DEATH AND THE MAIDEN, but Sigourney Weaver eventually got it. I like the film but I wonder how Judy Davis would have handled the last "revelation" scene.<< Hey Joe, and everyone else I love this movie and also wonder what Judi Davis would have done with Paulina's part. Trivia moment: The play was produced here in Barcelona some years ago and the writer (Ariel Dorfman) threatened to withdraw performing rights if the director refused to change his (the director's) ending which went contrary to the writer's ending. Without spoiling the ending I'll just say that the theatrical version here ended, like the film, with the 3 protagonists listening to 'Death and the Maiden' but then a shot rings out in the concert hall. Big controversy here over it and I think that the director initially refused to change his version but eventually did. Any of you guys out there have any opinions on that? And before I go, and thinking of the Stockholm Syndrome, I went to dinner the other night with someone originally from Argentina and she knows of a couple living here in bcn, he a torturer and his wife the former victim. Weird or what? Serious question. mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:54:37 -0800 From: "flopit" Subject: lyrics vs poetry any lyrics are poetry with music. it is an added dimension which may add to, or take away from it. add to poetry in that the writer may succesfully use the added dimensions of music and voice which give so much extra. or take away in that the writer may use the music/vocals as a crutch in order to successfully bring out that which the poet may have to do with only the words and structure of the poem. or to just divert attention away from their lack of ability with the lyrics. (who cares that theyre only saying shhooo bop, shooo bop as long as it sounds good??) it takes an exceptionally gifted writer to produce something which may stand scrutiny as either. something joni does extremely well. her lyrics on their own make a wonderful read. with the music added they just get better 'cause her music and singing just add so much extra depth. sure a whole lot of lyrics are *bad*. so is a whole lot of poetry. "oops i did it again" is just as much bad poetry set to music as "there was a young man from nantucket" is just bad poetry. the fact that we dont like it doesnt make it any less "lyrics" or poetry. i did have a good chuckle at franklyn lecturing victor on the art/craft of songwriting. im not sure of franklyn's songwriting record, but given what i know about victor's way with words i have a suspicion that this is somewhat a case of the "grasshopper" lecturing the master. i dont know victor personally, but anyone capable of songwriting of the standard which he produces just gotta know something about it. what mtv and music videos have done is added in a third dimension - the visual. some true artists have managed to use that extra dimension and produce a package which holds up in all 3 aspects. (eg david byrne on sessions at west 54th, pink floyd's the wall) and others have just used the visual medium as a crutch to cover over their lack of talent in other areas (christina aguilera, britney's pears et al) joni's PWWAM video did a lot of the visual medium tie in. the paintings on the walls, the setting of the auditorium etc, & of course, joni's wonderful sensual way of playing.... ron np - tanita tikaram-love dont need no tyranny (one of the things i love about the list are the continual reminders re music which i havent listened to for a while which sends me off to dig the cds out of the pile...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:03:11 -0500 From: "Suzanne MarcAurele" Subject: Pretty Lies Joni had always said in the past she hated repeating herself - Pretty Lies - album hype, a discussion league - Pretty Lies - rerunning as if ran out of things to say - the paintings don't say that - first time i can say I waited for the album and while I like the music it isn't new as to the voice - I still miss that high soprano - but hey send em out on tour until exhaustion - for all the rumblings of jealousy of a life i hear why would anyone believe that her life was enviable? does anyone hear her voice? even some of the later stuff - am I the fan supposed to play brain dead and not perceive any directly personal relationship of the music and lyrics to the song writer? I am not in the public eye and therefore the public and their consistent deaf dumb and blind routine can go fuck themselves I DISAGREE WITH MITCHELL ON A FEW POINTS ONE SALIENT ONE BEING THINGS DO NOT FALL APART IN CRISIS - THEY ALL COME STRANGELY TOGETHER EACH HAVING A LINK TO THE CRISIS ITSELF - WHETHER IT IS A BEAUTIFUL FLOWER PUSHED TO THE BREAKING POINT WITH PAINTING HER OWN ESCAPE OR SIMPLY DECENT PERSON PUSHED TO THE EDGE BY GREED OR TWO TOWERS AND A NATION STILL NAIIVE TO ITS NEED - IT ALL COMES TOGETHER but the sad truth is few really see.....is it want...is it greed...is it true blindness...i wont take responsibility on any of it...God created the planet...let God do as only HE could see and I'll choose to do my whatever now and as always and observe...frustrated...angry...and bored with all social cleverness... another point of disagreement...sweetness is not a proof of stupidity...in my case it is a conscious retreat to what never hurt to feel...kissing to be clever did...femme head games did...male one upman games did...its impossible not to be a hypocrit when your a winner... the sweet know all too well how that goes...the winner becomes a condescending parent type and the child, sensing the condescension says fuck it Suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:23:44 EST From: WARREN901@aol.com Subject: Re: joni as a poet is joni a poet...? from ' for the roses ' i heard it in the wind last night it sounded like applause chilly now end of summer no more shiny hot nights it was just the arbutus rustling and the bumping of the logs and the moon swept down black water like an empty spotlight from ' hejira ' white flags of winter chimneys waving - truce against the moon in the mirrors of a modern bank from the window of a hotel room from ' paprika plains ' it fell from midnight skies it drummed on the galvanized in the washroom, women tracked the rain up to the make - up mirror liquid soap and grass and jungle gardenia crash on pine - sol and beer... it's stifling in here... i've got to get some air... i'm going outside to get some air from ' edith and the kingpin ' edith in his bed a plane in the rain is humming the wires in the walls are humming some song - some mysterious song bars in her head beating frantic and snowblind romantic and snowblind she says - his crime belongs from ' i think i understand ' sometimes voices in the night will call me back again back along the pathway of a troubled mind when forest rise to block the light that keeps a traveler sane i'll challenge them with flashes from a brighter time oh, i think i understand fear is like a wilderland steeping stones or sinking sand i think these passages speak for themselves, they are certainly poetry to my ears ! joinily yours, warren keith p.s. but the cleaner from des moines could put a coin in the door of a john and get twenty for one it's just luck ! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:03:12 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. I've given this a lot of thought over the years. My impression is that Joni is a naturally gifted musical genius - it comes easy for her. I think the painting is more challenging for her and given her nature she finds the challenge more interesting. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:53:35 -0800 From: "Mark Connely" Subject: Re: awww I don't believe in "constructive" criticism. It's oxymoronic. Criticism is necessarily a destructive, take-apart act. That doesn't mean it's bad or good, it just is. Objectivity is impossible; all critical analysis de(con)structs. The impossibility of objectivity doesn't prevent us from striving towards fair, balanced critiques, yet fairness and balance are of limited value. Often, I find, the sharpest insights resolve out of a free exchange of more raw, unedited emotions. All we can ever really describe is our own reactions. The truth of the matter remains independent of our praise or criticism. It remains what it is , no matter what we think of it. ----- Original Message ----- From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com To: mark.travis@gte.net ; hencon@sonic.net ; joni@smoe.org Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 4:52 AM Subject: Re: awww In a message dated 11/24/2002 12:36:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: But I really do get annoyed with critics who publish in newspapers or magazines or give oral reviews on tv or radio who are much more concerned with 'skewering' and making witty, scathing remarks than they are with actually doing any kind of real analysis or constructive criticism. Very valid point, Mark...sometimes the reviewer attempts so many one-liners and snide remarks that you can't tell if they even liked what they were reviewing! (I'm sure that I'm guilty of this crime my own self!) By the same token, we Joni fans tend to be very passionate about our feelings, especially where Joni is concerned. So I can understand when somebody gushes or skewers, even if I don't agree. But a question...if I make a suggestion that perhaps what Joni "should have done" on a track is..., is that not constructive criticism? I mean, I LOVE the brief passages that Billy Preston adds to "Flat Tires"!!! That new color is SO welcome, but I don't hear him anywhere else, and the B-3 (and Billy's energy) would have complemented some other cuts here as well. And where is Herbie Hancock? He's mentioned in every review, the only place he's missing is on the CD! I guess what I'm asking is - How would you define "constructive criticism" in this case? I guess I'm only asking so that I can do a better job of it. Bob NP: Eddie From Ohio, "Big Yellow Taxi" PS: My favorite "snide" review was one that Rex Reed wrote - he simply said "No." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:59:08 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Larry Klein's Invisible Ink In a message dated 11/24/2002 7:54:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, willytheshake100@hotmail.com writes: > As her former > husband and constant collaborator Larry Klein explains in a > sleeve note, this is "not a 'Greatest Hits with Orchestra' type > of record". > WERE THESE LINER NOTES WRITTEN IN INVISIBLE INK? I CANNOT FIND LINER NOTES IN MY COPY OF TRAVELOGUE? ANYONE ELSE. KEN, (wondering if he should be careful what he wishes for after remembring Klein's liner notes from BSN) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:12:04 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: awww mark >> Everyone has a right to their opinion and discussing what we like and don't like is fine. What I have a problem with is people who like to point out how she did it 'wrong' or what she 'should have done'. Someone else posted that it isn't the critics job to force their own vision on a work of art. Their job is to try and evaluate whether or not the artist was successful in creating the vision that the *artist* was aiming for. The critic also should comment on the quality of the execution of the various components - in the case of recorded music, the sound quality, the skill of the playing or singing and the integrity of the whole....But I really do get annoyed with critics whopublish in newspapers or magazines or give oral reviews on tv or radio who are much more concerned with 'skewering' and making witty, scathing remarks than they are with actually doing any kind of real analysis or constructive criticism. <<< very well put mark & i wholeheartedly agree...i love reading a review that is done intelligently even if the review is not that positive- a good reviewer can always find some element to praise even if they do not like the work in general...unfortunately there are some 'professional' reviewers out there who give the profession a bad name...their words show them to be motivated by a need to be noticed for their own writing skills at the expense of providing a real review (this can be seen in both positive & negative reviews)... i remember one reviewer back in his early days (he has improved greatly through the years) who used to pack his nasty reviews with as many big & obscure words as he could find ... he was so overblown & arrogant & it appeared as if he was writing the way he thought a reviewer was supposed to be, rather than actually writing articulately or even very skillfully.... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:24:58 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: awww > But a question...if I make a suggestion that perhaps what Joni "should have > done" on a track is..., is that not constructive criticism? > > I guess what I'm asking is - How would you define "constructive criticism" in > this case? I guess I'm only asking so that I can do a better job of it. > Well now you're making me feel very sheepish about posting my *opinion* on the subject in the first place. I'm certainly no expert on how to write constructive criticism or anything else. And I have no wish to edit or censor what anybody chooses to write in this forum. I was just sounding off about a pet peeve of mine, expressing an opinion as we all love to do. And that is what you are doing when you make the statement that *you would like* to have heard more from Billy Preston and Herbie Hancock on Travelogue. To me there is big difference between 'I would have liked to hear more' and 'Joni *should* have used more of'. It's the difference between personal preference and giving the artist instruction on what they 'should' do. I suppose all criticism boils down to personal preference and opinion but it seems to me that the reviewer should present those opinions as just that. Opinion and not the Gospel truth. Unless the work in question is obviously badly executed and my point with Joni is that it never has been. In my opinion anyway. And yes, it's true, I am very sensitive about criticism of Joni. Call me a die-hard fan if you want. I don't necessarily gush over or worship every single thing she's done. But her artistic integrity is absolutely unquestionable to me. I might say I don't like a particular song or that I wish she would record something with a small jazz combo. But that's my opinion and I would never presume to make her choices for her. Enough. Everybody's asleep by now. Wake up. Lecture's over. Class dismissed. (As if) Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:26:30 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Re: Larry Klein's Invisible Ink Hey Ken -- These were in the liner notes of the advance CD only (which did not contain the artwork). Here's the text: "Our goal in recording this collection of Joni's songs in an orchestral context is not to create a "Greatest Hits with Orchestra" type of record. I feel that the songs which we selected, a broad cross-section of Joni's work from her prescient early songs all the way through recent writing, have acquired a new power, timelessness, and poignancy in her singing them in the voice of a woman who has lived a lot of life. In reapproaching these songs, we have tried to maintain the same challenging spirit of adventure that has always been an important part of her music. My optimism is that in recontextualizing her songs into an orchestral environment, the timelessness, pathos, humor, and the extraordinarily high standard which she has written throughout her body of work, will become apparent to a new audience. It is inevitable that some avid students of her records may prefer to hear the versions of the songs that they grew up with or that became a part of the fabric of their lives. To them, along with everybody else in our accelerated world who comes upon this record, I would say: take the time to let these versions of Joni's songs slowly wash over you. I don't think that you will be sorry. -- Larry Klein" Best, David on 11/24/02 9:59 AM, KJHSF@aol.com at KJHSF@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/24/2002 7:54:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, > willytheshake100@hotmail.com writes: > > >> As her former >> husband and constant collaborator Larry Klein explains in a >> sleeve note, this is "not a 'Greatest Hits with Orchestra' type >> of record". >> > WERE THESE LINER NOTES WRITTEN IN INVISIBLE INK? I CANNOT FIND LINER NOTES > IN MY COPY OF TRAVELOGUE? ANYONE ELSE. > > KEN, (wondering if he should be careful what he wishes for after remembring > Klein's liner notes from BSN) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #520 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)