From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #518 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, November 24 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 518 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- awww ["Mark Connely" ] Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! [TerryM2222@aol.com] Chuck Mitchell [TerryM2222@aol.com] Re: Chuck Mitchell [vince ] My review ["Russell Bowden" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #356 [StDoherty@aol.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #356 [StDoherty@aol.com] Re: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland [arid@geneva-link.ch] Re: awww [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: awww [] Re: awww [vince ] Re: awww NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: awww NJC [vince ] ded, njc, love ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: The coo of white doves [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland now njc [Catherine McKay ] Thanksgiving house rules NJC ["Heather" ] Re: Jordan / Jill Hennessy (njc) ["Lori Fye" ] RE: jill hennessey NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: awww ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: NJC - Mark displaying SOIL (the movie acronym) lol ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: awww hell NJC ["Mark Connely" ] Critics [Little Bird ] Re: NJC - Altman, Kurosawa and actors [] My 2 Scents on the 'Louge ["Kate Bennett" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:28:29 -0800 From: "Mark Connely" Subject: awww I'm sorry to hear those voices registering their disappointment that Joni's new work doesn't fit their preconceptions of what it "should" be. I'm sorry for the beauty they are missing. Oh well, huh? mc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:31:13 EST From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! All I know is that I cannot stop listening to October Road. It took three listens, then I was completely hooked. Though a long time fan of JT's, I'd take a breather here and there from listening to his music. But there is something about THIS one that hits me like a stun gun- Terry www.addconsults.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:33:05 EST From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Chuck Mitchell Hi all, In today's paper (Detroit) is an announcment that Chuck will be performing in the state (forgot where, but I can check). Included is a photo of him. Is anyone wanting to see what he looks like? If so, I'll be happy to scan it. I don't know if it's a current pix, but I'm guessing it is. Terry www.addconsults.com Return-Path: Received: from rly-xj03.mx.aol.com (rly-xj03.mail.aol.com [172.20.116.40]) by air-xj01.mail.aol.com (v89.21) with ESMTP id MAILINXJ13-1123085324; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:53:24 -0500 Received: from smoe.org (jane.smoe.org [199.201.145.78]) by rly-xj03.mx.aol.com (v89.21) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXJ39-1123085256; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:52:56 1900 Received: from smoe.org (ident-user@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smoe.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gANDqgkN029599 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:52:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gANDqgtI029598 for joni-outgoing; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:52:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com (imo-r06.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.102]) by smoe.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gANDqckN029584 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:52:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from AsharaJM@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id p.60.2969ffd2 (4328) for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:52:28 -0500 (EST) From: AsharaJM@aol.com Message-ID: <60.2969ffd2.2b10e21c@aol.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:52:28 EST Subject: Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! To: joni@smoe.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 230 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain Sender: owner-joni@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: AsharaJM@aol.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Bob said about JT: << The list of great songs he has written is pretty long. The list of superb recordings is even longer. He has the gift of being able to make a cover his own (Handyman, You've Got A Friend). He's been recording as long as Joni, and although I don't put him on her level as a writer, a recording artist doesn't last for 5 decades, continuing to produce new work, on meager talent. >> Then Victor said: <> Damn, but I agree wholeheartedly with both of you. I don't judge a musician/songwriter/performer by sheer skill of the pen, ability on their instrument, or quality of their voice, even. For me, it's all about whether they touch my heart and whether I continue putting their music in my CD player. James does this over and over again as does Joni, of course, and CHERYL WHEELER as well. ;-) Hugs, Ashara {Thrilled for Nikki, Mags and Brian who are seeing Cheryl tonight!!} As Paz would say..........I WANNA GEAUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:43:13 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Chuck Mitchell Terry, lease check as to where. If it is close to enough of us, we can have a ChuckFest. Maybe to amuse ourselves, bring our T'log albums and ask Chuck to autograph. Ask him who "The Last time I saw Richard" is really about. It could be fun! Vince TerryM2222@aol.com wrote: > Hi all, > > In today's paper (Detroit) is an announcment that Chuck will be performing in > the state (forgot where, but I can check). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:1:32 -0800 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: My review One more thing......I had NO EXPECTATIONS...I hoped for the best....and besides, who knows what to expect from Joni, really? Russ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:10:06 EST From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #356 In a message dated 11/23/2002 7:34:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Why would I want to cast her painting in an unflattering light by > holding them up to High Art? Or her music to Poetry? I would rather > contempate her work for what it is: Popular song raised to it's highest > zeinith. She is the queen of musical beauty. > Perfect! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:13:18 EST From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #356 In a message dated 11/23/2002 7:34:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > When people ask me, what does she sound like, or "Is she Folk" I > just say, "her music is Joni Music" I don't think most of it fits any > defined category. > Me too .. I hate when people ask me to pigeonhole - but I understand why they need to do this. Nothing condescending here .. they just don't hear music the same way as others do. I don't watch sports the way others do. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:25:33 +0100 From: arid@geneva-link.ch Subject: Re: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland Well, I thought I could introduce myself a little more. Joni has been a favorite artist of mine for many years (and I do have many other favorite artists). I'm a music lover and a pro musician myself, a drummer to be more precise, and I also used to be a cellist. I do have most - but not all - of Joni's records. The first one I got to know about 30 years ago, was Ladies of The Canyon, and it still remains a favorite of mine. I already loved BSN (a case of you & both sides now brought me to tears many times). I was expecting Travelogue to be even better, and it is. It gives a new light to many great songs, and I'm moved beyond description : by the words, by the music, by the arrangements, by Joni's humanity and PERFECT voice, by the musicians (Wayne Shorter has been a favorite of mine for many years too), by all the creativity and intelligence of all the people involved in this project. I know I've read negative criticism, even from old fans as it seems, but I truly see Travelogue as Joni's art matured and perfected. I was having dinner with my 12 year old son tonight, listening to the CD, and he said (although he doesn't understand the words): "what a woman!" I won't post to often I guess, since I'm pretty busy and English isn't my first language, but I do appreciate reading the messages on the JMDL! Alain >In a message dated 11/23/2002 11:56:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, >arid@geneva-link.ch writes: > >>It's my first post here, although I've been subscribing for quite some time. >> > >Thanks for popping in and announcing yourself, A. I believe you have >the shortest name of any of us! ;~) > >Please do chime in more often... > >B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:37:44 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: awww In a message dated 11/23/2002 7:29:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, hencon@sonic.net writes: > I'm sorry to hear those voices registering their disappointment that Joni's > new work doesn't fit their preconceptions of what it "should" be. > But dontcha think that Britney, Christina A, etc. also create and release cd's that are THEIR vision? And people here seem to have no problem ripping them to shreds because THEY don't like them - (and in most cases probably haven't even heard them. ) I guess I just don't understand the difference in allowing someone to express their discontent or disappointment with Joni's work, even as they acknowledge that it's Joni's vision. It reeks of those high school days when kids all pretend to like the same bands/clothes/TV shows etc. so they can fit in, and anyone who dares to be different is criticized. Don't get me wrong - I'm not comparing Joni to a couple of disposable pop sensations. I'm just addressing the concept that Joni's "realized vision" may not suit some people, even some of her most faithful lifelong admirers, and that should be OK as opposed to a patronizing "awww". Travelogue may not be my particular cup of tea, but it really has more to do with me & my tastes, and not with Joni Mitchell & the execution of this project. Or maybe They Might Be Giants are right when they sing "People should get beat up for stating their beliefs"... Bob NP: Joni, "Circle Game" from T'log ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:43:36 -0800 From: Subject: Re: awww Thank you, Mark, for articulating the very same irritation (and disappointment) at some of the more scathing reactions to the new collection. Ya' know, gang, I think most of us would prefer to receive new work from JM, in a more pared-down musical landscape, but THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE GETTING, whether we like it or not. For over 2 years now, most of us have known what the prognosis was for the next project. Now it's here, and rather than celebrating it for what it is, many of us seem all too focussed on everything that it's not. I may take a few blows for saying so, but if TTT is the best JM can do these days for an original body of work in song, I'll take Travelogue over it any day. - -Chris On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:28:29 -0800 Mark Connely wrote: > I'm sorry to hear those voices registering > their disappointment that Joni's > new work doesn't fit their preconceptions of > what it "should" be. > I'm sorry for the beauty they are missing. > Oh well, huh? > mc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:09:27 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: awww SCJoniGuy@coversRus writes insight akin to Tillich speaking of God: > But dontcha think that Britney, Christina A, etc. also create and release > cd's that are THEIR vision? And people here seem to have no problem ripping > them to shreds because THEY don't like them - (and in most cases probably > haven't even heard them. ) > > I guess I just don't understand the difference in allowing someone to express > their discontent or disappointment with Joni's work, even as they acknowledge > that it's Joni's vision. It reeks of those high school days when kids all > pretend to like the same bands/clothes/TV shows etc. so they can fit in, and > anyone who dares to be different is criticized. > > Don't get me wrong - I'm not comparing Joni to a couple of disposable pop > sensations. I'm just addressing the concept that Joni's "realized vision" may > not suit some people, even some of her most faithful lifelong admirers, and > that should be OK as opposed to a patronizing "awww". > > Travelogue may not be my particular cup of tea, but it really has more to do > with me & my tastes, and not with Joni Mitchell & the execution of this > project. > > Or maybe They Might Be Giants are right when they sing "People should get > beat up for stating their beliefs"... Respect for the artist whose vision we do not share, whose vision we cannot discern, whose vision failed to us to be clear and insightful, who vision we scorn, yet should be respected for their presenting there vision, as slight as it might mean to us. Respect for what doesn't work for us is always in order. It is always a risk to take what one has created, something that one has given life to and make it, when expression of that artistic work makes the artist feel naked and vulnerable by presenting their vision - so one one lays themselves bare to present their vision, whether it works for me, I salute the artist for their courage and the attempt and recognize that it simply may not work for me but might be real meaningful to others. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:17:54 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: awww NJC In a message dated 11/23/2002 9:08:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > I salute the artist for their courage and the attempt and recognize that it > simply may not work for me but might be real meaningful to others. > OK, but what if it sucks? LOL! Bob NP: Elvis C, "Man Out Of Time" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:27:12 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: awww NJC > > I salute the artist for their courage and the attempt and recognize that it > > simply may not work for me but might be real meaningful to others. > > > > OK, but what if it sucks? LOL! > > You take a hammer and smash the art of pieces and announce that you are a performance artist and you must, you simply must have this piece for your next show. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:16:38 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: ded, njc, love Have posted before that I did not find our Joan particularly attractive physically. That was then, and now....? Have simply fallen in love with the woman. Have used her for advice, for counsel, and for her unique philosophies. Her words have helped me to reminisce and to dream; to grow and to learn. Have even found her to skirt the issues of romance and love with FTR but never did she take me to that place of passion, sex and desires. Others took me there. Until now. 'Impossible Dreamer' Though the tune probably has multiple meanings, what strikes me is her tone, that voice. Ahh, to slide under the sheets with this soul, to lie there, in the darkness, alone, with her. Listening to her breaths, in and out, in and out; to feel that breath upon my face. Fingertips upon my skin. And then..... those lips, so sweet. Then, I realize I just did. Could she have been exuding such sensuality on purpose? I believe. mack http://Stories.Com/authors/mackoliver ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:11:09 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: The coo of white doves Mack wrote: > ?" Lastly, a PT that works > at the facility, but doesn't live here, was walking nonchalantly down the > hall, approaching me. I thought "hmm, she looks rather offbeat, I bet she > knows Joan." So I stopped her and asked "Susan, do you know who Joni > Mitchell > is?" She then said "doesn't she have a new album out?" I was knocked > over. > She said she was not a fan and instead preferred Bonnie Raitt. We were > then > interrupted by something. Later she returned to me and told this story. > She > said that she had friends in Canada and that they had doves, though not > specific about the birds was she. They, the friends, would play different > music and the birds would not react but when they played Joni, the birds > would > coo and coo and coo. She said they would remove Joni and play something > else > and the birds would stop. Reinsert Joan, and the cooing returned. Even > the > birds know. > > Really nice post Mack. This was a prime example of why I am not a Joni-only subscriber. Still, on behalf of those poor Joni onlies, please go easy on the NJC tag, eh ? :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:52:32 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland now njc --- arid@geneva-link.ch wrote: > Hello! > > It's my first post here, although I've been > subscribing for quite some time. > > I just got home with my own copy of Travelogue. I > bought it at one of > the FNAC stores here in Geneva, and that means they > probably got it > in France already. Waaaaaaaaahhh - and they don't have it in Canada yet, land of Joni's birth!!! How unfair is that?? Welcome to the list, Arid; or welcome to making yourself noticed on the list, that is. New voices are not only welcome but very much appreciated. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:40:40 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Travelogue opinionation Regarding matters of opinion, I'm always interested in what others think of Joni's work, whether it's a glowing review or a scathing criticism. I think when an artist releases an album, a book, a movie or publicly unveils a painting, he or she understands that not everyone will love it, even those who may follow their work. They are essentially offering it to the public for consumption and not all will find it palatable. Taking criticism is par for the course for any artist. Besides, Joni is one of the most opinionated people around so I'm sure she can take it as easily as she can dish it out, although would probably rush to defend her art, LOUDLY, if given the chance to confront her critics. Russ is obviously a long-time Joni fan and his opinion is surely valid and welcome. At least in my in-box. And here's a dandy of a quote to keep in mind: "Never, for the sake of peace and quiet, deny your own experience or convictions." - - Nobel Peace Prize Winner, Dag Hammarskjold - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:47:41 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: Thanksgiving house rules NJC For those of you celebrating Thanksgiving. >Martha Stewart will not be dining with us this >Thanksgiving. I'm telling you in advance, so don't >act surprised. Since Ms. Stewart won't be coming, I've >made a few small changes: > >Our sidewalk will not be lined with homemade, paper >bag luminaries. After a trial run, it was decided that >no matter how cleverly done, rows of flaming lunch >sacks do not have the desired welcoming effect. > >Once inside, our guests will note that the entry hall >is not decorated with the swags of Indian corn and >fall foliage I had planned to make. Instead, I've >gotten the kids involved in the decorating by having >them track in colorful autumn leaves from the front >yard. The mud was their idea. > >The dining table will not be covered with expensive >linens, fancy china, or crystal goblets. If possible, >we will use dishes that match and everyone will get a >fork. > >Since this IS Thanksgiving, we will refrain from using >the plastic Peter Rabbit plate and the Santa napkins >from last Christmas. > >Our centerpiece will not be the tower of fresh fruit >and flowers that I promised. Instead we will be >displaying a hedgehog-like decoration hand-crafted >from the finest construction paper. The artist >assures me it is a turkey. > >We will be dining fashionably late. The children will >entertain you while you wait. I'm sure they will be >happy to share every choice comment I have made >regarding Thanksgiving, pilgrims and the turkey >hotline. Please remember that most of these comments >were made at 5:00 a.m. upon discovering that the >turkey was still hard enough to cut diamonds. > >As accompaniment to the children's recital, I will >play a recording of tribal drumming. If the children >should mention that I don't own a recording of tribal >drumming, or that tribal drumming sounds suspiciously >like a frozen turkey in a clothes dryer, ignore them. >They are lying. > >We toyed with the idea of ringing a dainty silver bell >to announce the start of our feast. In the end, we >chose to keep our traditional method. We've also >decided against a formal seating arrangement. When >the smoke alarm sounds, please gather around the table >and sit where you like. > >In the spirit of harmony, we will ask the children to >sit at a separate table. In a separate room. Next >door. > >Now, I know you have all seen pictures of one person >carving a turkey in front of a crowd of appreciative >onlookers. This will not be happening at our dinner. >For safety reasons, the turkey will be carved in a >private ceremony. I stress "private" meaning: Do not, >under any circumstances, enter the kitchen to laugh at >me. Do not send small, unsuspecting children to >check on my progress. I have an electric knife. The >turkey is unarmed. It stands to reason that I will >eventually win. When I do, we will eat. > >I would like to take this opportunity to remind my >young diners that "passing the rolls" is not a football >play. Nor is it a request to bean your sister in the >head with warm tasty bread. > >Oh, and one reminder for the adults: For the duration >of the meal, and especially while in the presence of >young diners, we will refer to the giblet gravy by its >lesser-known name: Cheese Sauce. If a young diner >questions you regarding the origins or type of Cheese >Sauce, plead ignorance. Cheese Sauce stains. > >Before I forget, there is one last change. Instead of >offering a choice between 12 different scrumptious >desserts, we will be serving the traditional pumpkin >pie, garnished with whipped cream and small >fingerprints. You will still have a choice; >take it or leave it. > >Martha Stewart will not be dining with us this >Thanksgiving. She probably won't come next year >either. > >I am thankful. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:08:49 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Jordan / Jill Hennessy (njc) > I may be redundant here, being several digests behind and replying in > order, but Jill Hennessey (sp ? I dunno) is also a big fan of JM - > face appearing often in the audience at the JM Tribute Concert onTNT. One more reason to love Jill!!!! Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:13:50 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: RE: jill hennessey NJC > same here. i'm sad that diane wiest is gone. she was a good > replacement for steven hill. i don't like the new guy. he acts like > too much of a texan to be in the nyc district attorneys office. Perhaps the producers were trying to keep the "Texan" aspect of the show after Angie Harmon's departure? Lori, who thinks Angie is WAY hot ~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:35:50 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: awww > I guess I just don't understand the difference in allowing someone to express > their discontent or disappointment with Joni's work, even as they acknowledge > that it's Joni's vision. It reeks of those high school days when kids all > pretend to like the same bands/clothes/TV shows etc. so they can fit in, and > anyone who dares to be different is criticized. > > Don't get me wrong - I'm not comparing Joni to a couple of disposable pop > sensations. I'm just addressing the concept that Joni's "realized vision" may > not suit some people, even some of her most faithful lifelong admirers, and > that should be OK as opposed to a patronizing "awww". Of course Travelogue is not going to be everyone's cup of tea and most all of us have Joni albums that we prefer over others and some that we don't like at all. Everyone has a right to their opinion and discussing what we like and don't like is fine. What I have a problem with is people who like to point out how she did it 'wrong' or what she 'should have done'. Someone else posted that it isn't the critics job to force their own vision on a work of art. Their job is to try and evaluate whether or not the artist was successful in creating the vision that the *artist* was aiming for. The critic also should comment on the quality of the execution of the various components - in the case of recorded music, the sound quality, the skill of the playing or singing and the integrity of the whole. I can't understand how anybody who has followed Joni from the beginning of her career can say that any of her records were poorly conceived or put together or represent anything other than her total commitment to the project and her consummate skill as a writer, performer and musician. There is nothing slip-shod about any of her records. Whether you like all of them or not is a different story. But to make snide, glib comments about them and imply that you somehow would have known what *should* have been done seems incredibly egotistical and very annoying, imo. I've trashed artists from time to time, I admit it. But I really do get annoyed with critics who publish in newspapers or magazines or give oral reviews on tv or radio who are much more concerned with 'skewering' and making witty, scathing remarks than they are with actually doing any kind of real analysis or constructive criticism. There are people who use these excuses for reviews to decide whether or not they might see a certain film or buy a certain record. And I think that's a sad state of affairs all the way around. Mark E. in Seattle who would like to submit Rickie Lee Jones name for consideration as a 'poet' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:37:05 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: NJC - Mark displaying SOIL (the movie acronym) lol I can also be pretty good at dishing dirt. ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:49:51 -0800 From: "Mark Connely" Subject: Re: awww hell NJC I'm certainly not trying to squelch anyone. However, just because I recognize the right off each to voice their opinion doesn't mean that I think that one opinion is as good as another. Far from it. I will "dare to be different" on this score: Some people's opinions flat-out suck. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark or Travis" To: ; ; Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 9:35 PM Subject: Re: awww > > I guess I just don't understand the difference in allowing someone to > express > > their discontent or disappointment with Joni's work, even as they > acknowledge > > that it's Joni's vision. It reeks of those high school days when kids all > > pretend to like the same bands/clothes/TV shows etc. so they can fit in, > and > > anyone who dares to be different is criticized. > > > > Don't get me wrong - I'm not comparing Joni to a couple of disposable pop > > sensations. I'm just addressing the concept that Joni's "realized vision" > may > > not suit some people, even some of her most faithful lifelong admirers, > and > > that should be OK as opposed to a patronizing "awww". > > Of course Travelogue is not going to be everyone's cup of tea and most all > of us have Joni albums that we prefer over others and some that we don't > like at all. Everyone has a right to their opinion and discussing what we > like and don't like is fine. What I have a problem with is people who like > to point out how she did it 'wrong' or what she 'should have done'. Someone > else posted that it isn't the critics job to force their own vision on a > work of art. Their job is to try and evaluate whether or not the artist was > successful in creating the vision that the *artist* was aiming for. The > critic also should comment on the quality of the execution of the various > components - in the case of recorded music, the sound quality, the skill of > the playing or singing and the integrity of the whole. > > I can't understand how anybody who has followed Joni from the beginning of > her career can say that any of her records were poorly conceived or put > together or represent anything other than her total commitment to the > project and her consummate skill as a writer, performer and musician. There > is nothing slip-shod about any of her records. Whether you like all of them > or not is a different story. But to make snide, glib comments about them > and imply that you somehow would have known what *should* have been done > seems incredibly egotistical and very annoying, imo. I've trashed artists > from time to time, I admit it. But I really do get annoyed with critics who > publish in newspapers or magazines or give oral reviews on tv or radio who > are much more concerned with 'skewering' and making witty, scathing remarks > than they are with actually doing any kind of real analysis or constructive > criticism. There are people who use these excuses for reviews to decide > whether or not they might see a certain film or buy a certain record. And I > think that's a sad state of affairs all the way around. > > Mark E. in Seattle > who would like to submit Rickie Lee Jones name for consideration as a 'poet' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:53:01 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Critics Very well put, Mark. A critic's duty is to criticize constructively, not presume to know better than the artist who conceived the project - excellent point. I have some trouble with the Dog Eat Dog album but love some of the individual tracks, for instance. But never would it occur to me to say "Joni should not have made this record," or "What was Joni thinking?!" I know what she was trying to do and appreciate it because I love her mind. To her it may have succeeded marvelously but it's naturally not going to tickle everyone's fancy. The same goes for any given album. It's a fine line between opinion and criticism and an even finer line between criticism and denigration. The key is to be constructive, objective and thoughtful when analyzing your feelings for another person's creation, always keeping in mind that it's an expression of another individual's interior world - their thoughts, their vision, their ideas - and that the critic, therefore, has a tremendous responsibility to be thorough in his or her analysis. Right? - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:11:49 +0800 (PHT) From: Subject: Re: NJC - Altman, Kurosawa and actors Hi Mark and Franklin! Calling all "period" film buffs: GO SEE/RENT "GOSFORD > PARK", two or three times if necessary (you won't be alone) - ah, > nuance and it's subtle,baffling, alluring attractions! To Colin I will say that if you left before the last hour of 'Gosford Park', you missed the best part of the movie, imo. I like Altman too and I liked 'Gosford Park' but I thought it was a tad too long on exposition. It took way too long to get to the murder for my taste. I agree with this assessment 100%. The movie has this languid pace that took a little longer to unravel, but in seeing the whole movie, one appreciates the slowness of the first half. Similarly, Akira Kurosawas DREAMS took off brilliantly and stumbled a bit in some succeeding vignettes, but the last episode more than made up for the langourous way other vignettes were paced. I still think the movie is best viewed more than once to see the subtler things we usually dont see in the first viewing. More than that, GOSFORD PARK is about power relations that exist between the moneyed and those whose station in life was to serve and be obsequious to their masters. Remember that camera pan where we see Kristin Scott Thomas in her boudoir and how it went down and panned the servants quarters and how things were the same but executed differently. I thought that was one manifestation that the director knows his subjects quite well and how with very little special effects, it managed to accurately depict people caught in their unguarded moments. > Helen Mirren doesn't really get a chance to shine until the very end. And how she showed her range as an actor, bringing the exact hues of resentment, anger, hatred and unrivalled devotion and even fascination for her master. This kind of acting reminded me of Anthony Hopkins speech in AMISTAD and Miranda Richardsons heart-wrenching vitriol-addled speech towards her unfaithful husband in DAMAGE. > Emily Watson is great This woman is amazing! She can be a homeless actress with a limited range in Tim Robbins CRADLE WILL ROCK, then metamorphose into a troubled cellist in HILARY AND JACKIE, then be part of an Irish community in Jim Sheridans THE BOXER. And even in the uneven RED DRAGON, her onscreen chemistry with Ralph Fiennes sizzle  it nearly approximates art-film proportions! I have not watched PT Andersons PUNCH DRUNK LOVE yet, though I heard Bob M. had something positive to say about it, but I am sure, just as Adam Sandler shone in that movie, the quiet intensity of Emily Watson in that film helped tremendously. > Maggie Smith is as well. I respect this womans range, from an uptight spinster in ROOM WITH A VIEW to showing different facets of loneliness in THE LONELY PASSION OF JUDITH HEARNE. And even in such big and small films, she managed to chew the scenery: SISTER ACT, THE SECRET GARDEN, THE DIVINE SECRETS OF YA-YA SISTERHOOD. In GOSFORD PARK, her snobbish curmudgeon character with a penchant to mutter under her breath her disapproval of the crassness of situations and that of the unempowered was compulsively watchable. Helen Mirren might have the films highlight, but Maggie Smith was delightful. In a freakish kind of way, she lights the screen everytime shes in it (Geena Davis was also that in THE ACCIDENTAL TOURIST). > 'Short Cuts' comes close to being as successful on that level although there are some things about that movie that I didn't like at all. I thought some of the female nudity was gratuitous. But I loved seeing Annie Ross! She must have done something to make her voice so raw in that one. When I saw her with Jon Hendricks a few years ago, she didn't sound anything like that! I like SHORT CUTS too but maybe in a different way than most critics. The interweaving lives of people, the jazzy score and Annie Ross presence were already worth the price of admission. Annie Ross horn-like voice made jazz singing classy and (may I say it?) accessible. Naah, it was good singing, period. I like Jennifer Jason Leighs character despite (or maybe because) of the fact that she is an outsider in a society because of the nature of her job. She creates this magical and virtual world for people who seek lusty releases, while changing diapers and doing the most common of things common people do except that her shoulder is cradling a phone. SHORT CUTS has its flaws just like PT Andersons MAGNOLIA, but the authentic renderings of common and ordinary life are extraordinary and certainly uncommon in recent films. > 'The Player' really does do a wonderful job of skewering the Hollywood star-maker machinery. I saw the re-constructed 'Touch of Evil' a year or so ago (re-edited using Orson Welles' written instructions) and the long beginning shot in that movie kinda dwarfs Altman's beginning of 'The Player', imo. I agree with this. THE PLAYER paid a reverse kind of hommage to Orson Welles classic film noir, but did it in ways that lambast and honor it at the same time. Its like saluting a period piece of art for its influence in filmmaking in succeeding decades, but at the same time, deconstructing the very elements that made it a classic. THE PLAYER seems poised to be remembered many years later after people forgot about other films. > Another one I love is 'Cookie's Fortune'. Kind of a different one for Altman. Tells a pretty straight-forward, albeit quirky, story. It was great to see Patricia Neal onscreen and Glenn Close and Julianne Moore were both fun to watch. I was in a production of 'Salome' in college (played Jokannon aka John the Baptist) so the church production that Glenn Close's character directs was especially funny for me. I also had fun with COOKIES FORTUNE, though Patricia Neal was really the heart and soul of the movie. I cant comment on Altmans rendering of contemporary American South, but this film, though not lacking in local color is quite unlike other films about the South I watched in recent years, notably John Sayles PASSION FISH. I am not sure if Altman was able to get inside the very south of the South but in my untrained mind, I thought it resembled a bit Lasse Hallstroms awful SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT. But I like the over-the-top performance of Glenn Close and Julianne Moores slightly dim-witted sister. And the rehearsals for SALOME were quite funny though I am not sure if Altman meant it to be so. Overall, I enjoyed the film as much as I got lost in the accent. > And speaking of Oscar Wilde, I played a butler in this one back in college! This is a delightful, perfectly cast version of the play. Dame Judy as Lady Bracknell, Colin Firth as Jack/Ernest, Rupert Everett as Algernon, Reese Witherspoon as Cecily - what better actors to play these parts? Funny, but in college I read THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING EARNEST and I thought it was crackling with wit and I imagined Wildes lines will give the actors the opportunity to sparkle. The recent adaptation was quite what I imagined it and enjoyed it thoroughly. However, such lines as you are the personification of absolute perfection were not given the spark and chutzpah I imagined, and though I like Reese Witherspoon since MAN IN THE MOON and ELECTION, she simpers a bit. Colin Firth and Rupert Everett were perfectly cast, though I have to admit that Kenneth Branagh might also do well in the Algernon role. I am half in love with Frances OConnor in all her movies and she is a combination of fire and restraint here  something relatively easy to do but quite difficult to actually pull off. But Dame Judi Dench was at her stentorian best as Lady Bracknell. There is no stopping this woman at this point in her acting career. From IRIS to 84 CHARING CROSS ROAD to MRS BROWN. Next weekend I am watching the earlier version of TIOBE with Dame Edith Evans as Lady Bracknell and Michael Redgrave. > The same producers did 'An Ideal Husband' a few years ago and it was also wonderful. Rupert Everett seems to be the perfect modern-day mouthpiece for Oscar Wilde. And Julianne Moore and Cate Blanchett are two of the most talented actresses of this generation, imo. Watched this one too, but I didnt know that the makers of TIOBE were the same people who did AN IDEAL HUSBAND. Julianne Moore is good, and Cate Blanchett underacted to brilliant effect. Even Minnie Driver was good. >> > > Franklin> Judy Davis! What a gal! She was amazing playing Judy Garland in 'Life With Judy Garland', a tv movie that was adapted from Lorna Luft's book. She was also pretty convincing as Lillian Hellman in 'Hellman and Hammett'. Much as I hate to say it, she was probably a lot closer to what the real Hellman was like than Jane Fonda was in 'Julia', much as I love that particular movie. Judy was also good as George Sand in 'Impromptu'. I wonder if she likes playing parts based on real people's lives? I watched ME AND MY SHADOWS: LIFE OF JUDY GARLAND and I was knocked silly by Judy Davis! I was with two other friends and one of them is a Judy Garland fan. She told us that if one is familiar with Judys cinematic and recording oeuvre, that we will be even more amazed that the Carnegie Hall concert of Judys was replicated exactly as it was that historic night, even the dialogues. As I am unfamiliar with the said recording, my friend imitated Judys stay all night spiel. It was eerie how this friend can imitate exactly the voice, until she told me that if one listens to the actual recording, one cant help but copy it. The girl who played the young Judy was precocious, yes? She reminded me of talented child actors in European films. After the film I get an appreciation of Judy Garlands tragic but talented life. I read somewhere that when Benny Goodman was asked about his favorite singer, he mentioned Judy Garland. > I think what you say is true with some actors, I do think there are truly brilliant people who can sometimes transcend the material they have to work with and even a mediocre or bad director. Meryl Streep comes to mind as does Bette Davis. I always associate Meryl Streep in films that rise above the dross of films in cineplexes and she always act with honesty and technical brilliance. Although she was a bit miscast as Clara in THE HOUSE OF THE SPIRITS, she was good in almost all films she appeared in, from IRONWEED to SILKWOOD to OUT OF AFRICA. And this lady proved she can do comedy too (black comedy at that) in SHE-DEVIL and DEATH BECOMES HER. But the one film I like was this underrated movie called DEFENDING YOUR LIFE. Here, with no accent and no real person to inhabit a role, she basically played herself  an all-capable and perfect mother. Her joyous face everytime she sees Albert Brooks in the movie was so glowing in a radioactive kind of way. I can imagine her as the real mother in the RIVER WILD and even as the rich mother in BEFORE AND AFTER. In ONE TRUE THING she tugged at our emotional heartstrings anyone who was not moved by her impassioned plea to Renee Zellweger in the bathtub scene, is without heart. > I watched the HBO film 'Wit' last weekend which is practically a one-woman tour-de-force from Emma Thompson. I was amazed by that performance. I too liked this actress. She is so gifted its almost impossible to see her in a movie where shes not good. Oh, come to think of it, JUNIOR with Arnold Schwarzenegger and Danny De Vito didnt come out well for me. Her brand of humor did not have onscreen comic chemistry with the two. But shes good in DEAD AGAIN, HOWARDS END, and check out her heartbreaking face as her train (or bus?) was moving away in THE REMAINS OF THE DAY. Could anyone play a better lawyer than her in IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER? And even if she looked a day old than Elinor in SENSE AND SENSIBILITY, she was excellent in it. > I haven't seen Russell Crowe in too many movies but he seems to be another actor with true brilliance. Saw him in ROMPER STOMPER and PARIS IS BURNING before he became Hollywood. He was a combination of fragility and strength as a gay son in SUM OF US. And he convincingly played a damsel in distress in the revisionist western THE QUICK AND THE DEAD with Sharon Stone as a Clint Eastwood character. Even Leonardo Di Caprio had fun in his role. Its nice to see the initial films of actors before they become larger than life. I personally feel that Rusell Crowe should have on in THE INSIDER rather than GLADIATOR, but what then what do I know? (Same with Jeremy Irons performance in DEAD RINGERS rather than REVERSAL OF FORTUNE). > Daniel Day-Lewis also comes to mind. I often wonder how is Daniel Day-Lewis in real life? He is so intense and incredibly focused. His Method Acting and choice of movies made him a favorite in my books. Report had it that when he was shooting THE CRUCIBLE, he shunned hotel accommodation and the use of a trailer. Instead, he came a full month ahead of schedule to the location and built a cabin, similar to his character John Proctors cabin, and actually lived there. His performance in this movie along with Joan Allen makes it hard to think of anyone as Puritan Americans other than them. And in his latest movie, GANGS OF NEW YORK, he was convinced by Martin Scorsese from semi-retirement to play a racist one-legged American. When he asked Scorsese why he was singled out for the role, Scorsese repled: you are the only one I know who understands the nature of anger. This was evident in the filming because DDL will throw a knife several meters away and hit his mark bulls-eye. This fascinated as much as alarmed his co-stars. The first time I saw him in Gandhi as a cruel Englishman, I never would have thought he could give unforgettable performances as a gay man in MY BEAUTIFUL LAUNDRETTE, as a native American in THE LAST OF THE MOHICANS, as a repressed society man in AGE OF INNOCENCE and as a man wrongfully accused in IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER. Trivia: his first screen appearance was in this Glenda Jackson movie SUNDAY BLOOODY SUNDAY. > Sir Anthony Hopkins has played everything from Richard the Lionheart to Hannibal the Cannibal to Richard 'Tricky Dicky' Nixon (not to mention Titus Andronicus) and scored high marks in each of those roles. Speaking of 'Titus', May I respectfully say that Anthony Hopkins is a hit/miss thing for me. He has his share of films where his talent reaches existential dimensions (84 CHARING CROSS ROAD, AMISTAD, THE REMAINS OF THE DAY and even in Michael Ciminos DESPERATE HOURS) but his other films, notably HANNIBAL and the recent one with Chris Rock not only wastes his talent, but the materials are not good enough for a man of outsized talent. I know many will disagree with me but though I find his Hannibal Lecter in THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS eerie and creepy and very good, I like Brian Coxs Hannibal Lecter in MANHUNTER better. MANHUNTER is the first/earlier version of RED DRAGON and the very first cinematic debut of Hannibal Lecter. 1988 at that. Somehow, Coxs bland eschewal of violence is scarier than Hopkins leery Lecter. > Jessica Lange is another truly fine actress, imo. Beautiful woman. Even more beautiful talent. Her faded Southern belle aura worked well in CRIMES OF THE HEART and EVERYBODYS ALL AMERICAN, but she was quite wrong in HUSH with Gwyneth Paltrow and Johnathon Schaech. The first film I watched her was TOOTSIE, though she was said to have appeared in KING KONG before. She is very good at playing wounded characters like that in COUNTRY, FRANCES and MUSIC BOX (not one of Costa Gavras best work but Lange rises above the material). I hope she does films again. Although not really my type of film, but COUSIN BETTE made full use of her talent and range. > I love movies. Maybe I don't discuss them quite as in depth as Franklin & Joseph but I love to talk about them. No, Mark, you write well and I like it when we are writing as we experienced the movies rather than parroting the critics words (not that critics are necessarily evil but films ultimately should benefit from what academician Joseph Schwaab had to say: polyfocal conspectus  the understanding of films in ones own terms and interpretation)! Thanks for sharing! Joseph in Manila ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:29:00 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: My 2 Scents on the 'Louge Randy wrote >>FTR, stripped of it's rhythm, sounds like stillborn bachelor pad music.<< that is so interesting to hear your reactions randy...i'm such a rhythm freak but i didn't miss it here one bit...i have to listen to this cut again but i recall listening last night in the dark that i felt i was being transported up to BC- it was deep winter & i was looking out across the water under a full moon...it had a haunting quality of her looking back in time while standing in the same physical location where she wrote the song.... >>the hugely ponderous treatment of "Woodstock", at heart a musically simple song with earthy hippie-era lyrics.<< i was blown away (in a good way) by her treatment of woodstock...yes, it was once a simple song for a simpler time (or so it seems now) & was an anthem for a generation (i was at woodstock myself)... but her new arrangement makes a huge statement about what has happened to us all since those simple glory days...imo of course... i think why i love this record so much is that i was actually not expecting that much (ti is just okay to me & i don't even have ttt or bsn)...i was completely open to hearing something brand new & i had no interest in comparing the songs to how she previously arranged them & i do not expect or want her to have the same voice she once had...& so i love the sound of her voice as it is now- so whethered & wise & like fine wine, a favorite pair of decades old blue jeans...a guitar you've had & played for years...etc.... we all have different tastes so i don't expect everyone to like what i like but i wonder- to those of you who don't like this record- have you listened to it in the dark, with no distractions, just letting yourself go where the music takes you...because this record really takes me on a visual journey, if i let it....it's cinematic... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #518 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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