From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #517 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, November 23 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 517 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: NJC Only the nose knows.... [Franklin Shea ] Re: Re "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) [Franklin Shea ] RE: Re "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) [Franklin Shea ] RE: NJC "Sweet" Baby James! ? dumped! [Franklin Shea ] NJC Re: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland ["laurent Fonquerne" ] wow, again. ["Mark Connely" ] Re: NJC - Mark displaying SOIL (the movie acronym) lol [Franklin Shea ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #509 [Franklin Shea ] Re: Will & Grace - njc ["Mark or Travis" ] joni's voice ["Kate Bennett" ] Is Joni a poet? aye ["Kate Bennett" ] voice & bad reviews ["J.David Sapp" ] political humor NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] My 2 Scents on the 'Louge [Randy Remote ] Reviews ["Russell Bowden" ] Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. [David Marine ] Re: Will & Grace - njc [colin ] BirthdayGirl/Wendigo NJC [colin ] Re: voice & bad reviews [Fauchja@aol.com] Re: Old hippies, T'log and latest... [Michael Paz ] Re: jill hennessey NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:17:43 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: NJC Only the nose knows.... >Regarding whose nose Bree wants to kiss, Franklin asks: > ><< Hey Bree, now would that be Bob's nose, or mine? Any thoughts/comments on >this Bob? >> > >Bob>That would be mine, Franklin. ;-) Franklin> I knew it. I just knew it! DARN!!! >Bob> And dear Bree, you are welcome to the nose as long as you know the rest >belongs to "Golden Eggs" Guzzi! We are determined to produce the first JMDL >baby (or babies) before the next Jonifest. Franklin> If at first you don't succeed.....don't quite remember how the rest goes, but I think it has something to do with seeds....(wink) Franklin NP: Jethro Tull - "Aqualung" Oh, where oh where did Jethro Tull go, oh where oh where could they be. I just wish they'd would cut another CD of their unique quality... You're RIGHT!! Victor... that simple sh..t can be tough. That last couplet took me a half hour!! lol > > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:24:44 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: Re "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) >Victor the Victrola writes: > ><< I am by no means irritated at anything and have no hostility in me and >never have. >> > >Bob>Anyone who doubts this must meet Victor at a Jonifest. He is a >kind man with a big heart and a shitload of talent. In fact, he's so >nice he doesn't even play covers frisbee after Muller conks out! Franklin> Thanks for the personality clarification Bob. I intend to accept Victor in just this light from now on. So FIRE away Victor (LOL). Between ya'll I've finally figured out the darts are of the soft foam type... OUCH...lol Franklin to Franklin> YA' BIG WUSS... Thanks again Bob, Franklin NP: Still Jethro (minimal "filler") Tull ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:43:00 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: RE: Re "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) >Victor>My remark was meant to be a joke, based on your own depiction of James >Taylor, whom you said wrote three(maybe six) noteworthy songs in his entire >career, the rest of which were dismal failures, comparable to garbage in a >landfill. I simply wanted you to view yourself by those same standards you >held James up to but apparently that went over your head. Franklin> Now Victor... Just because I mentioned trash heap (I believe that was my praiss) doesn't mean I though that "the rest were dismal failures". Dismal (your interpretation) is a bit harsh!! lol >Victor>I am by no means irritated at anything and have no hostility in me and >never have. And I have yet to even say anything directed at you. Every >single one of my posts has been about the subject at hand. Franklin> I'll accept your perception on that... >Victor>I have no interest in creating drama and will ignore any further drama. Franklin> Oh DARN!! I'm willin' to "kiss" an' make up... but do we have to toss out the baby with the bathwater???? No DRAMA??? Please Victor, reconsider (after all, you did acknowledge it as a form of "creating").. LOL Franklin to Franklin> There, there. Now life isn't ALL drama. Remember there are always LOW points too. Just take your little pill and everything will (hopefully) even out a bit... and BTW - what's with all the sugar consumption lately? I thought you vegetarians were a bit more, shall we say, conscientious. Remember: sugar is as sugar does - to paraphrase Forrest Gump. lol (just so ya' know I'm a' kiddin' ya Franklin.. No gettin' riled over that now, OK?) Franklin> Bless your big heart (if Bob says it, I believe it) and kindly forgive any misunderstandings on my part. I've put away my steel darts set (the foam kind are much funner and safer anyway) and apologize for any inappropriate reactions. (You can safely resume full posture again (referring to "ducking")... and so will I. lol Franklin NP; JT (Jethro Tull) ha ha - just a little teasin' there. > > > > > > > > >--- Victor Johnson >--- waytoblu@mindspring.com >Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson > >Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 >Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:52:14 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: RE: NJC "Sweet" Baby James! ? dumped! >Jenny mused> The poster child for musical innovation, James is not. > > Yes he earns his bread and butter on a few precious >> and not-so-precious hits - and it is a dismal >> experience to see him in concert and be surrounded by >> people who only want to hear songs off his greatest >> hits - but he has made his mark as a songwriter -- not >> pushing the boundaries or making waves, but by writing >> little gems that have their place in the soundtracks >> of many of our lives (sounds like a bad hallmark, I > > know, but it is true). Lama> Gotta agree. I've been thinking today that J.T. has consistently been interesting every single time out. I think he's been much more interesting than McCartney or Lennon, solo. Wierd, huh? Franklin pondering> Actually, I don't find that hard to believe...at all really. Weird, huh? From any TV concert footage I've seen JT strikes me as engaging, humble, and charmingly interactive with his audiences. Always (obviously) has one hell of a band, small or large, behind him. Once, again - I've always recognized that he is one hell of an acoustic guitar picker', his own style and all. I'll have to catch his next gig up here. BTY, if I get the chance, do you think I should apologize, or just leave well enough alone? LOL Franklin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:54:55 +0100 From: arid@geneva-link.ch Subject: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland Hello! It's my first post here, although I've been subscribing for quite some time. I just got home with my own copy of Travelogue. I bought it at one of the FNAC stores here in Geneva, and that means they probably got it in France already. I knew I was going to love it. What a brilliant CD ! A :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:03:44 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? > > >Victor> It is very difficult to write good lyrics >> >> Franklin> I'll assume this is a personal confession... difficult for >> who? That's an unmerited assumption. I've read scads of articles >> involving songs I've found to be lyrically sophisticated, tasteful >> and wonderful where the writer says, "it just all flowed right off >> the pen." Franklin to Franklin> You smart ass, you... I will give you the "unmerited assumption part though... ya' coulda' left out that first zinger though you incorrigible rascal! ##**## > >Victor> Yes, and the football just flowed out of John Elway's hand. Franklin> There IS something to be said about the ol' "practice makes perfect". >Victor>Just because something looks easy does not mean that it is. >That's the whole magic and beauty of the artistic process. Franklin> Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. There is a "magic and beauty"to the whole artistic process - at least when it succeeds on some level. >Victor> Being an artist involves a lot more than just sitting down >with a pen and can be very challenging and draining. Franklin> It can. >Victor>Jonatha Brooke has often talked about fighting her anit-muse, >the part ofher that tells her she is no good and cannot write. All >artists deal with >this, not just me. I'm not confessing anything-I'm talking about something >I know about. There are plenty of songs out there with terrible lyrics or >mediocre ones, as you said, on the radio. These people either just don't >care, are not really very good, or a combination. Franklin> All true, except maybe the "all artists" (to generalized) part. I understand and accept your point though. >Victor> Some songs do just flow off the page, yes. But more often >than not, they are a product of lots of work and personal searching, >struggle, turmoil, >life experiences.. Franklin> I particularly agree with the "personal searching, struggle, turmoil and LIFE EXPERIENCES", that's where the best art surely seems to come from. Yes, well said. Well said indeed, my friend (no presumption intended) Franklin > > > > > > > >--- Victor Johnson >--- waytoblu@mindspring.com >Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson > >Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 >Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:08:59 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland In a message dated 11/23/2002 11:56:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, arid@geneva-link.ch writes: > It's my first post here, although I've been subscribing for quite some time. > Thanks for popping in and announcing yourself, A. I believe you have the shortest name of any of us! ;~) Please do chime in more often... B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:14:39 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland NJC In a message dated 11/23/02 11:56:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, arid@geneva-link.ch writes: > It's my first post here, although I've been subscribing for quite some time. > > I just got home with my own copy of Travelogue. I bought it at one of > the FNAC stores here in Geneva Hi Arid, and thanks for delurking. I'm so glad that T-log is getting out all over the world. This means that jmdler Lori Reason (also in Geneva) has it too! You'll have to have a Geneva jonifest :~) Jimmy in cool and sunny florida ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:11:47 +0100 From: "laurent Fonquerne" Subject: Re: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland Well they didn't get it Yesterday ... Laurent. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 5:54 PM Subject: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland > Hello! > > It's my first post here, although I've been subscribing for quite some time. > > I just got home with my own copy of Travelogue. I bought it at one of > the FNAC stores here in Geneva, and that means they probably got it > in France already. > > I knew I was going to love it. What a brilliant CD ! > > A :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:41:19 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: T'log style painting with words and music I have listened to T'log about 10 times thus far and as with all of Joni's work repeated listening reveals layers. One thing that has jumped out at me is how Joni is painting on a huge canvas with lots of colors. To me it is the prime example of Joni's painting with words and music concept. Sometimes its a short phrase. Examples: O&M "Slippers are shuffling into folding chairs" the strings sound like shuffling slippers. SOS "You're stumbling in shadows" there is a quick, jagged piano chord stumbling. Other times it is the entire arrangement. Woodstock is transformed into a dirge. TLTISR becomes tongue in cheek. Cherokee aches with longing for the lost friend. I think this is the music Joni has always heard in her head and it must have been a powerful and liberating experience for her. This is a major work. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:45:06 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Don Juan's Reckless Son Since I just joined last week, I am not sure if this has ever been posted or discussed before, but there are some great resources on the web about Carlos Castaneda, who was the most significant influence for most of the imagery on Don Juan's Reckless Daughter. For those of you who don't know about him, he's a philosopher from Mexico who studied under the tutilage of a Yaqi Indian from Mexico named don Juan Matus, a mystic and a shaman. Joni has mentioned on several occasions that she loves his books and respects his theories on the pursuit of knowledge: "Some people look forward to my next album the way I look forward to the next Carlos Castaneda book," she said. In any case, if you want a real understanding of the reference points on Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, one of her most challenging bodies of work, you should have a browse through this link and do a search on some of his books. Books that include essays like "The Eagle's Gift," "The Feathered Serpent's Flight" and "The Teachings of Don Juan." It's fascinating stuff given the lyrics to some of the songs and imagery from DJRD: "Coils around feathers and talons on scales..." It puts it all into perspective and makes the lyrics on that album all the more relevant to the human spirit. http://www.prismagems.com/castaneda - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:51:25 -0800 From: "Mark Connely" Subject: wow, again. This may be the most beautiful album yet. God, my heart breaks listening to "Love". ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:11:05 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: NJC - Mark displaying SOIL (the movie acronym) lol >Franklin: in attempting to extend a compliment to you Mark -thought >the Signs Of Intelligent Life acronym was appropriate (the fact that >it happened to work out as SOIL was quite accidental BTY) yet IMO, >totally hilarious. Just HAD to leave it up there, for that reason >alone....lol > >> Franklin had stated> I'm unfamiliar with the "Search For Signs", but vaguely > > recall hearing the name from somewhere?? If you learn more, kindly >> share. As to the rest - agreed. > >Mark>I had the pleasure of seeing 'The Search For Signs of Intelligent Life in >the Universe: A Cosmic Soup Opera' in Seattle when Lily was testing it out >before taking it to New York. One of the funniest, most intelligent, well >written pieces I have ever seen. Lily and Jane Wagner really created an >extraordinary comment on modern life with this one. Populated with >wonderfully drawn characters, all played by Lily the chameleon Tomlin (What >does a chameleon see when it looks in a mirror? Another mirror!) and full >of pointed and funny observations on the foibles of humanity. I have a >hardcover copy of the script around somewhere. I think it was filmed so if >you run across it, get it. It's well worth seeing. >Franklin> Thanks for the very informative tip, Mark.. > > > > Franklin had said,in total agreement with Joseph> Calling all >"period" film >buffs: GO SEE/RENT "GOSFORD PARK", two or three times >if necessary (you won't >be alone) - ah, nuance and it's >subtle,baffling, alluring attractions! > >Mark>To Colin I will say that if you left before the last hour of >'Gosford Park',you missed the best part of the movie, imo. I like >Altman too and I liked'Gosford Park' but I thought it was a tad too >long on exposition. It tookway too long to get to the murder for my >taste. Helen Mirren doesn't really get a chance to shine until the >very end. Emily Watson is great and Maggie Smith is as well. Alan >Bates is almost unrecognizable and gives a brilliant performance. Franklin> You heard Mark, Colin - now go catch that last hour!!**## lol I do agree with you Mark, that it was "a tad toolong on exposition". I could see how someone in the wrong "mood" might find it a bit languid at times. But, then again - they obviously had nothing better than to burn time in those days (in those days???) Funny how "there is nothing new under the sun". It is a good movie to take in on a lazy, comfortable afternoon with a mellow friend - there, hows that? I agree with the rest of your comments... Alan Bates IS almost unrecognizable, and gives a brilliant performance!! >Mark>M*A*S*H was the first R-rated movie I ever saw at the tender >age of 16. It was at the United Artists theatre in Chicago. What a >funny, biting film! >And I agree that the television series doesn't begin to compare. And I >don't 'get' Alan Alda either. Franklin>WOW, I must have been somewhere around that age too. What an impression it indelibly left on my young, impressionable mind. It's funny - but almost all of the "teen" movies/music today are SO STUPID - - as if they are "catering" to a stupid audience... aren't you glad we (for the most part) weren't treated that way? I feel sorrow and pity for the way the "industry" treats teens today, as dim-witted, clueless, financial fodder for their "sludge production" machinery. > >Mark>I love 'Nashville' although I find the ending to be very upsetting. I'd >like to hear anybody's thoughts on it. Why Barbara Jean? I loved Barbara >Harris in this movie. And some of the songs that the actors wrote are a >hoot! To me this one is the prime example of Altman's ability to weave a >multitude of stories and characters together. 'Short Cuts' comes close to >being as successful on that level although there are some things about that >movie that I didn't like at all. I thought some of the female nudity was >gratuitous. But I loved seeing Annie Ross! She must have done something to >make her voice so raw in that one. When I saw her with Jon Hendricks a few >years ago, she didn't sound anything like that! Franklin>I'll have to "re-visit" 'Nashville'. I actually avoided 'Short Cuts' as I thought, from the reviews that it was "plodding" and a disappointment. Dang those "reviewers" anyhoo! GRATUITOUS FEMALE NUDITY??!! excuse me while I run over to BlockBuster. OK, I'm back...LOL > >Mark> 'The Player' really does do a wonderful job of skewering the Hollywood >star-maker machinery. I saw the re-constructed 'Touch of Evil' a year or so >ago (re-edited using Orson Welles' written instructions) and the long >beginning shot in that movie kinda dwarfs Altman's beginning of 'The >Player', imo. Another one I love is 'Cookie's Fortune'. Kind of a >different one for Altman. Tells a pretty straight-forward, albeit quirky, >story. It was great to see Patricia Neal onscreen and Glenn Close and >Julianne Moore were both fun to watch. I was in a production of 'Salome' in >college (played Jokannon aka John the Baptist) so the church production that >Glenn Close's character directs was especially funny for me. Franklin> The 'Player', IMO is as cool as movie-making gets... sheer class! Speaking of 'Touch of Evil', that was the exact "extended, uncut, shot" that Altman was totally skewering as pretentious (but wait, I LOVE pretentious - served up "well-done" of course..lol). What was funny was how the reviewers raved over that opening shot! It wasn't meant as homage, but as back-handed sarcasm. Oh, well - I actually LOVED both those long, uncut takes! lol > > > Franklin had stated to Joseph> I'll have to check out "In the >Bedroom" if only because of the personal status you assign it. Also, >have yet to see "The Importance of Being Earnest", though several >friends whose taste and talents I respect highly have also >recommended it as a "must see". It's now on the list of TTD (things >to do). > > >Mark> And speaking of Oscar Wilde, I played a butler in this one >back in college! This is a delightful, perfectly cast version of the >play. Dame Judy as Lady Bracknell, Colin Firth as Jack/Ernest, >Rupert Everett as Algernon, Reese Witherspoon as Cecily - what >better actors to play these parts? The same producers did 'An Ideal >Husband' a few years ago and it was also wonderful. Rupert Everett >seems to be the perfect modern-day mouthpiece for Oscar Wilde. And >Julianne Moore and Cate Blanchett are two of the most talented >actresses of this generation, imo. Franklin> Once again, a well written reason to double-star that on the TTD list! > >> > > Franklin> Judy Davis! What a gal! > >She was amazing playing Judy Garland in 'Life With Judy Garland', a tv movie >that was adapted from Lorna Luft's book. She was also pretty convincing as >Lillian Hellman in 'Hellman and Hammett'. Much as I hate to say it, she was >probably a lot closer to what the real Hellman was like than Jane Fonda was >in 'Julia', much as I love that particular movie. Judy was also good as >George Sand in 'Impromptu'. I wonder if she likes playing parts based on >real people's lives? Franklin> You contribute a lot of appreciable information to this post Mark. I wouldn't doubt she does (referring to last sentence.) > >Franklin had stated> That is why some of the most popular actors, >who are lauded as being "great" have spotty filmmatic experiences - >the real creative force,standing between a horrible, mediocre >(arguably worse than horrible) >and outstanding performance is the Director... > >Mark>Although I think what you say is true with some actors, I do >think there are truly brilliant people who can sometimes transcend >the material they have to work with and even a mediocre or bad >director. Meryl Streep comes to mind >as does Bette Davis. I watched the HBO film 'Wit' last weekend which is >practically a one-woman tour-de-force from Emma Thompson. I was amazed by >that performance. I haven't seen Russell Crowe in too many movies but he >seems to be another actor with true brilliance. Daniel Day-Lewis also comes >to mind. Sir Anthony Hopkins has played everything from Richard the >Lionheart to Hannibal the Cannibal to Richard 'Tricky Dicky' Nixon (not to >mention Titus Andronicus) and scored high marks in each of those roles. >Speaking of 'Titus', Jessica Lange is another truly fine actress, imo. Franklin> I agree totally. When I made the above statement, I attempted to qualify it with the word "some". Other actors are totally independently talented, turning my thesis on its little head. They shine regardless of the talent, or lack there of, of the director and the material. Like great songwriters, these are the real treasures... >Mark>I love movies. Maybe I don't discuss them quite as in depth as >Franklin & Joseph but I love to talk about them. Franklin> You underrate yourself Mark! Your knowledge and insights are a VERY welcome addition to this discussion. Please, keep talkin', recommending, etc. Franklin NP: L.A. Cowboy - "Flyover Land" a "tongue in cheek" ode (love letter?) toTinseltown: Tasteful, witty, charming, intelligent, poetic songs. (NF) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:20:25 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Michael, Madonna and Joni NJC?? i am pretty sure michael's skin condition can't be helped...its a disease of loosing pigment, so gotta stick up for they guy on this count...as far as his crash & burn, i think he's been on a that decline ever since he was charged with molesting a young boy....neverland ranch (his home) is just up the road a piece but that is one local celeb i've never run into...ps, i missed the story of his son over the balcony, what was that about? i think will is so right...that madonna mostly cares that we think of her, not what we think of her...but i bet underneath that hard exterior i imagine she was a bit hurt by what joni said though i'm sure it will be fuel for her next image change....(some more guitar lessons perhaps? alt tunings?...lol) ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:59:23 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #509 Tim - enjoyed your thoughtful, intelligent post - Franklin On. Nov. 20, "curious in connecticut," also known as Relayer 211, wrote (in part): " ... objectively, could she [Joni] be called a poet? What exactly is the difference between poerty and song lyrics, anyway?" ... and several people chimed in, the thrust of some of the remarks being mainly that song lyrics are written for that purpose, and poems written to be poems, and sometimes they are interchangeable, and sometimes not. I thought something was missing here. In high school, or before, I learned that some, but not all, poetry has form, but all poetry has content which distinguishes it from prose. Formwise, the most familiar form of poetry has rhyme and meter, and some poetry has more elaborate schemes dealing with numbers of verses and stanzas, internal rhymes and repeated words, phrases or lines, from limericks to sonnets to triolets. But there is also blank verse, which has meter and not rhyme, and free verse, which has neither rhyme nor meter, but still, it has the essential content that distinguishes poetry from prose? The defining mark of poetry, contentwise, as I was taught, is imagery. What is said may paint a picture or establish a mood; these are types of imagery, but do not exhaust the possibilities. Devices such as simile, metaphor, metonymy and synecdoche may be employed. Much commercial music has song lyrics with rhyme and meter, the form of some sorts of poetry, but has no significant imagery, being as pedestrian as ordinary prose, and thus, fails to qualify as poetry. I think we can all agree that Joni's lyrics have imagery galore, as well as, often, layered meanings, and thus, fulfills this content requirement for poetry. We can all think of other songwriters whose lyrics also qualify in this sense. On Nov. 21, John Irving mentioned that poetry is characterized by condensation, the stripping away of the superfluous while retaining the essential, and used the simile of reduced stock in cooking. I haven't thought of that, and it is probably correct, and he may be right, therefore, that on that count, Joni's song lyrics don't qualify as "real" poetry. Someone else on the list mentioned Patti Smith as a songwriter who also writes poetry separately from song lyrics. Others that come to mind are Rod McKuen -- anybody heard about him lately? -- and Joan Baez. On the Joan List, to which I also subscribe, Joan is quoted as saying that she doesn't want to write songs anymore, but wants to continue to write poetry as well as recording and performing live. Of course, the obvious is: Someone else -- some composer -- could set those poems to music. Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:11:00 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Will & Grace - njc > I think what gets me about the show is that it's seen as a "gay show" when it's anything but. There's enough heterosexual content in it to make it palatable to the masses, which is one of the reasons why Ellen failed - it was TOO LESBIAN for mainstream audiences. W&G is made for straight audiences who happen to like those "quirky little gays" in the periphery of their lives. There's just something clownish and insulting about it. I watched W&G faithfully for the first season or two. I really enjoyed it. And I agree that Karen is the funniest character on the show. However, since Travis has started working 2nd shift, I hardly ever turn the tv on in the evening. The few times I have seen W&G recently it seems to me that the running jokes have worn kinda thin. Especially the 'you two are SO married' shtick that we hear about Will and Grace themselves all the time and I finally figured out that therein lies the problem with this show for me. As long as the writers are holding that carrot in front of the noses of Mom & Pop America, the show somehow stays within the bounds or acceptable sit-com material. Otis and Marlena, sitting in their livingrooms in Iowa or wherever they are in Middle America can cling to the hope that someday Will will 'see the light', leave behind his perverted ways and marry Grace, raise a couple of kids and live happily ever after the life God meant him to live: the life of a straight man. In the meantime, he's a very likable, fairly innocuous guy who never really does anything that offends their sensibilities. There is nothing wrong with Jack's character in & of itself but as a representation of gay men (which is how I'm afraid many people probably see him), he is a total stereotype. Sean Hayes, whatever his orientation, is great in the part, very funny. Because of his outrageousness, Jack can get away with the kind of behavior that Will can't. He's not a threat because he fits the expectations of what a gay guy acts like. I've known people like Jack and at one time struggled with the 'image' they project to the world at large but in the end finally figured out that no-one should have to stifle their true personality to fit an acceptable mold. Part of it has to do with being able to accept the effeminate part of my own personality. But I digress. I agree with Andrew that Ellen was lambasted because her show was a bit too honest for the mainstream. I thought the coming out episode was hilarious and very honest as were subsequent shows that actually dealt with her struggle to come to terms with it. Those episodes were well-done. But then they were interspersed with obvious attempts to win back the mainstream audience, like the episode where she winds up on the roof of her neighbor's house in a chicken costume. We've made great strides and I do think 'Ellen' and 'Will and Grace' are steps forward. But mainstream America still ain't ready for the real thing. And speaking of 'Six Feet Under', I think David and Keith are maybe the best portrayals of gay characters I have yet seen on television. Both of these men are very believable as men who work in non-stereotypical jobs (for gays) and just happen to be sexually attracted to other men. I think David's struggle with his sexuality in the first episodes was very honest and accurate. 'Queer As Folk' is fun to watch and it is a fairly accurate depiction of one aspect of gay society - the young men, living in the 'gay ghetto' who, like a lot of straight guys, love to party, dance and get laid. It is *not* however, a representation of gay people in general. Mark E in Seattle PS: My favorite film on this subject is Merchant/Ivory's 'Maurice' which is a beautifully made adaptation of E. M. Forster's very honest and accurate novel. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:24:41 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: joni's voice > I liked the comparison someone made of Joni's voice to a horn. It is very brassy these days, sort of trumpet-like and squeaky on the trills.< i think this is referring to my comment which was that i think that her voice quality is very similar to the (wayne shorter?) sax...listen to circle game & you can clearly hear the similarities of the two in this song... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:24:42 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Is Joni a poet? aye john >>> A poem wouldn't tell you every picture has it's shadows. It would simply BE the thing. (Not sure if I'm making sense...) The condensation of thought would strip away the declarative and the reader would discover, by discription, or words alone that the shadows mentioned in the piece are in fact the shadows of a painting. That would turn the writing into Poetry.<<< i totally get what you are saying & must add that this is also what many lyricists strive for...finding that particular word that says so much...being instead of describing...somewhat related to basic writing 101- show don't tell... >>>I'm not sure why we would want to cast Joni's lyrics in such an unflattering light as to put them in the realm of Poetry. Especially on the heels of her brilliant triumph T'log. These lyrics are among the most brilliant song lyrics in the history of mankind. As poetry, Wiliam Meredith or Donald Justice is running nuclear rings around this stuff. Why pale her work by such comparison?<<< maybe this comparison thing is more of an intellectual exercise that i find is just so unneccessary when talking about poetry or any creative endeavor for that matter...i do not think that by calling joni's lyrics poetry it lessens her work just because there may be others who may be considered 'better'....as i've said before, for me it all boils down to opinion...there is some art, some literature, some poetry, etc...that many consider to be great that leaves me cold...& vice versa... >>>Which brings up a bit of irony I'm afraid to mention, but thought of when I opened the T'log package: I find it curious that Joni devotes so much of her worth to a medium that she is a minor player in, when as a writer/singer/composer she is unparalleled in the history of mankind. As a painter, the peers her equal or better, just in the southern Cal area alone would popuate a small city.<<< because that is what she has always done her entire career....she has often used her paintings, photos (or had a hand in the art directions) for her albums & this is just a natural extention of that...for her first release STAS, she painted the cover...decades later she is doing the same thing, but now with the available technology & the lushness of the music, she is complementing the sonics by showing us a gallery of her work...nobody else to my knowledge has done this yet & so once again she has followed her creative instincts & given us something new...in a few years perhaps more people will get it...joni's releases have often left people saying huh? (as jeff says, that is a good sign) only to come to the conclusion later that she was actually brilliant... it is the nature of creativity to share what you have created with as little thought of being compared to others as possible (the antimuse as victor called it or the i suck syndrome as jonatha calls it)....(this is the territory left for the critics & academics i suppose) for instance, i am fully aware that i am a minor player in the realm of singing & songwriting but that does not stop me from recording & performing my works (well it almost did at one point)...if i were to consider how many brilliant singers & songwriters there are out there & let that stop me from sharing my creativity you might as well stab me with a flowing pen because not to create & share is soul death... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 13:32:46 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: voice & bad reviews Listen to the 1st 5 words of T'LOG's TLTISR - I'm sorry that is a f*cking GORGEOUS voice. As to the reviews I would quote our Joan: They open and close you Then they talk like they know you They don't know you Well some are going to knock you And some'll try to clock you peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:48:39 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: political humor NJC a little political humor commercial break during the t'log love fest... just got some spam on a new book which i could not resist reading- apparently the recent elections were a result of 'thinking voters' who somehow realized that it was really about that evil clinton couple who of course are responsible for all of our current woes & wait, there is more! there are now links between monica & osama!!!! >>On Election Day Americans repudiated Bill and Hillary Clinton -- thinking Americans realize that Bill Clinton was more responsible for 9-11 and the current recession than George Bush >>Why Clinton's adviser Dick Morris says Bill Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinksy helped Osama bin Laden survive and plot 9-11.<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:13:42 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: My 2 Scents on the 'Louge Got my copy from Amazon, spun it this morning.... Her voice: better than I had expected. Better than on TI or TTT. Still, damaged goods, but it is what it is, and is suited much more to her own material than tackling the standards of BSN. There is no escaping comparisons to Billie Holiday. Her phrasing and vocal nuances certainly recall Billie, and this is no accident. Her voice holds up well in most of the songs, but not always, as on the raspy a capella intro to "Love". Throughout, she clearly enunciates her words, often to the point of annoyance, over- pronouncing as if paranoid we might miss something. You wish she would loosen up. The orchestration: mostly ICK! Worst examples of Vince Mendoza's heavy hand, as in "Sex Kills" suggest an amateur orchestrator aggressively packing overblown instrumental blasts into every available open space. John Lennon once advised Joni to tart up her tunes with strings. I have a feeling he is somewhere screaming "enough already!" FTR, stripped of it's rhythm, sounds like stillborn bachelor pad music. "Be Cool" would be a far better track without the distracting orchestration. While "Refuge" begins with an incredibly beautiful harp piece echoing Joni's original guitar arrangement, the song becomes bogged down with saccharine symphonics. Other poor fits stylistically include "Just Like This Train" which sounds slightly baffling, and the hugely ponderous treatment of "Woodstock", at heart a musically simple song with earthy hippie-era lyrics. The male chorus in "Sire of Sorrow" sounds like what it is, a group of hired hands who most likely have never heard a Joni Mitchell record, and recall nothing so much as Mitch Miller's boys lost in a musical fog. In "Hejira", the conga percussion against the orchestra just sounds weird, and Joni's spasmodic vocal phrasing doesn't help. Occasionally, the overly romantic strings fit the material, as in the melancholy "Chinese Cafe". Hearing Joni sing "nothing lasts for long" moved me to tears. A pleasant surprise was "God Must Be A Boogie Man". Here, at last, is a hint of what could have been. Joni fronting some tasteful jazz greats who understand her material, a touch of swing (THANK YOU!) and a tasteful, small string section. "Trouble Child" and "Be Cool" also swing a bit, and suggest a much more effective musical direction. IMO. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:25:43 -0800 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: Reviews Gang, Of all the reviews I've read of TLOG, the one from the Boston Globe is the closest to my own opinion......Personally, I do not find Joni's ravaged and shattered voice, gasping for breath, great songs rendered uninteresting (at best ) and a thick and soupy orchestra that sounds like the BSN (yawn) arrangements (with different lyrics ) when it doesn't sound like some Frank de Vol movie soundtrack from an early 60's Doris Day comedy....something to swoon over. As I've mentioned to a couple of listers ......she shouldn't have bothered....texture, husky, warm voice? It crackles like old parchment with nothing very beautiful written on it. Like Judy Garland in the last years of her life..... Joni is and has been the Queen of my life for 30 years, but this Empress's new clothes are not very pretty on her...cause there's nothing (much) there. Phrasing? Energy? I didn't hear it. I hope it sells well and I'm glad a lot of people like it...but I can't say it's fabulous just because it's Joni....CD-ROM? Booklet with art? Nice, but I don't buy Joni to look at 1" X 2" thumbnails of paintings that I will probably never see or own...... Nobody ever said to VanGogh.....When are you going to paint another Starry Night, man? Who asked her for this mess? Embarrasing and cringe-inducing. Joni, it's probably too late..but for God's sake (and yours) STOP SMOKING.... Yes, I'm blown away by TLOG, too. By how disappointing it is. Love, Russ - --- Russell Bowden - --- russbowden@earthlink.net - --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:41:00 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. on 11/23/02 6:17 AM, johnirving at johnirving@tbcnet.com wrote: > The essence of poetry is verbal and conceptual density. Whose definition is this, John? Why do you say this? > Joni Mitchell's lyrics are certainly poetic and beautiful. Beautiful > enough to warrant contemplation and reading. But they are not poetry. > The Complete Poems and Lyrics does not work as a stand alone book of > poetry, in spite of the artful cover and title. It is an unsatifying > read as a book of poetry. Perhaps a professor of English could speak at > length to the whys better than I can. Perhaps. As a poet and a longtime reader of poetry, I find the book very satisfying. Granted, I would guess that readers of Schiller may find something lacking when they read "Ode to Joy." Yes, it's the Beethoven that is missing. But it's still a poem. > I am partnered with a Poet. (He just handed me that passage, btw...) > With over 200,000 books in the house (!!!), I can't move from room to > room without tripping over Poetry in one form or another. From the early > Greeks to the most contemporary writers, he's read it all. I know > exactly what HE would say if I asked him if Joni were a poet. I would be interested to know exactly what he would say. Perhaps you would be kind enough to ask him for us. > Actually, he didn't effort a grunt when I posed the question to him. Perhaps you could ask him again. And if he says that she is not a poet, might you ask him to explain why he believes that? > I'm not sure why we would want to cast Joni's lyrics in such an > unflattering light as to put them in the realm of Poetry. Especially on > the heels of her brilliant triumph T'log. These lyrics are among the > most brilliant song lyrics in the history of mankind. As poetry, Wiliam > Meredith or Donald Justice is running nuclear rings around this stuff. > Why pale her work by such comparison? I would venture to say that many would prefer Joni's poetry to that of Meredith or Justice (or my favorite, Ashberry). The truth is that their poetry is rarely read outside of academic circles. The truth is, in fact, that poetry is rarely read these days at all. Much of it is simply too abstruse for the average reader. For most people today, the poems of their everyday lives are written as lyrics. I do understand the distinction that you and Franklin are attempting to make between poetry and lyrics, between Joni's writing and that of contemporary academic poets. But the distinction is specious. It's all poetry. > Certainly, her painting is lovely and I wouldn't have her put her > brushes down for a moment. Some of her pieces are downright > magnificent... As a singer/composer she is not only one of the top 20 > human beings among the billions living, but billions in the entire > history of the planet as well. As a painter, the peers her equal or > better, just in the southern Cal area alone would populate a small city. > (Not to cast dispersions on her art. Just a statement of how many good > artists there are out there doing good stuff.) If my math is correct, that would mean that there are about 70 million painters worldwide producing pieces that are "downright magnificent." > I would rather contempate her work for what it is: Popular song raised to it's > highest zeinith. You mean like the Iliad? This all comes down to the ongoing dialogue about high art vs. popular art. Everyone draws his or her own borderlines. I'm open to whatever comments you want to make about Joni's or anyone's work. But the argument that Poetry or Painting can only exist within one's own personal borders does not advance understanding, IMO. Best, David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:18:48 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Will & Grace - njc >We've made great strides and I do think 'Ellen' and 'Will and Grace' are >steps forward. But mainstream America still ain't ready for the real thing. >And speaking of 'Six Feet Under', I think David and Keith are maybe the best >portrayals of gay characters I have yet seen on television. Both of these >men are very believable as men who work in non-stereotypical jobs (for gays) >and just happen to be sexually attracted to other men. I think David's >struggle with his sexuality in the first episodes was very honest and >accurate. > i agreee with you totally. they are quite ordinary. kieth especially must give people food for thought. > 'Queer As Folk' is fun to watch and it is a fairly accurate >depiction of one aspect of gay society - the young men, living in the 'gay >ghetto' who, like a lot of straight guys, love to party, dance and get laid. >It is *not* however, a representation of gay people in general. > > > eaxactly! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:29:54 +0000 From: colin Subject: BirthdayGirl/Wendigo NJC Birthday Girl-terrible film with Nicole Kidman. Stupid unrealistic ending. ven tho they made Nicole dowdy in this, her beauty was still obvious. Wendigo-well what the hell was that about? Finsihed just when it got interesting. intersting phography, and the story looked as if it might be but it all went nowhere. There has been a dearth of good films recently. oh watched The Time Machin-bought it cheap. one cannot rent it here becasue AOL/Warner are asking ridiculous terms for rentals so Bl;ockbusters and evrryone else told them to stuff it. That goes for all their films. Anyway quite enjoyed this. Guy Pierce is very good looking. However, he looked very thin in this which rather spoiled his looks. don't know if this is how he looks now or if he was asked to lose weight for the film. The film got confusing. There is a point where jermey irons says to Guy Pierce's cahracter something like'i wouldn't be here without you'. it didn't make sense. The photography was good and the whole thing was imaginative. Not a brilliant film but enjoyable. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:09:06 EST From: Fauchja@aol.com Subject: Re: voice & bad reviews I agree. I've been amazed by the WHOLE CD but her voice on TLTISR was just etherial. AMAZING!!!!!! (FTR is going to take some time getting used to since I LOVE the original song with the folky guitar. Fauchja ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:42:05 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Old hippies, T'log and latest... Christina Did you brush your teeth? And write in your notebook?? Hee hee Paz on 11/21/02 10:53 PM, Christoffer Gudi Sommer-Gleerup at christi@dsr.kvl.dk wrote: > and I'll probably fall through once in a > while. But that's the great thing about coming from another country - people > (except for Paz!) don't expect anything from me, and I can do lots of things > and get away with it! > > Goodnight for now... > Christina ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:06:13 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: voice & bad reviews its taking me some time as well, and i even have the BSN versions. i think i don't understand how the arrangement paints the words (it has a tension i don't feel in the words) - or maybe i see a different painting in the words. i do like the T'log version though. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:59:52 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: jill hennessey NJC In a message dated 11/22/02 5:30:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, alisone4@yahoo.com writes: > OH, ME TOO ME TOO! Law and Order just isn't the same > without her....all these skinny little conservative > girlie types they've had since her... > > At least they still have S. Epatha Merkerson ( who played Reba the mail lady on Pee Wee's Playhouse) AND the gorgeous Jesse L. Martin who I got to see in the orginal cast of "Rent". Hi Alison!!!! Jimmy ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #517 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)