From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #516 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, November 23 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 516 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- fresh meat part 2 & hooray for the french ["Kate Bennett" ] re: lyrics vs poetry [cul heath ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #514 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: fresh meat part 2 & hooray for the french - njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Today in History: November 23 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: norah jones njc ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: 1st French point of view about Tlog ["laurent Fonquerne" ] [none] ["William Chavez" ] ricky/fred NJC ["William Chavez" ] What's all this about her voice? [Rosanella ] Re: 'Joni's yucky voice' [] Re: NJC - Woody, Altman, Sayles [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Buck-Nicks NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Joni, judith and me SJC [MWalshkoba@aol.com] Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Is Joni a poet? Morrison (njc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! now fortifed with Cheryl Wheeler [Catherine McKay ] Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. [johnirving ] Re: joni as a poet ["RSM" ] Adam Durtz Diaries [again?] ["RSM" ] About that Meredith poem... [johnirving ] Re: Jordan / Jill Hennessy [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: JM v Dylan [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? [Franklin Shea ] Re: NJC Only the nose knows.... [Franklin Shea ] Re: JM v Dylan ["Blair Fraipont" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:09:13 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: fresh meat part 2 & hooray for the french jeff just walked through the room where i was playing t'log...he shook his head & said to no one in particular...'i can't believe critics are bashing this'... but hooooray for the french! they get it!!! ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:07:52 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: NJC - Woody, Altman, Sayles > >Joseph>I echoed the same sentiments, however, I thought Lily Tomlin > >was the stand-out. Has she ever won an Oscar in the past? She is so > >underrated. I > >heard that she had this SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF INTELLIGENT LIFE filmed but I > >don't know where to look for this. THE PLAYER is really Hollywood at its > >gutter-worst and I love the way Altman skewered just about anyone. I > >thought the ensemble cast in THE PLAYER is as ideal and as the cast in THE > >HOUSE OF THE SPIRITS is as disappointing (all were miscast in my opinion > >except Glenn Close who was nearly incandescent as Ferula). > > Franklin> I'm unfamiliar with the "Search For Signs", but vaguely > recall hearing the name from somewhere?? If you learn more, kindly > share. As to the rest - agreed. I had the pleasure of seeing 'The Search For Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe: A Cosmic Soup Opera' in Seattle when Lily was testing it out before taking it to New York. One of the funniest, most intelligent, well written pieces I have ever seen. Lily and Jane Wagner really created an extraordinary comment on modern life with this one. Populated with wonderfully drawn characters, all played by Lily the chameleon Tomlin (What does a chameleon see when it looks in a mirror? Another mirror!) and full of pointed and funny observations on the foibles of humanity. I have a hardcover copy of the script around somewhere. I think it was filmed so if you run across it, get it. It's well worth seeing. > > >Joseph>And don't get me started in GOSFORD PARK. I thought it was > >brilliant and although some people say that nominating GP is > >recognition enough, I think > >its even better than my favorite IN THE BEDROOM. The camera angles, pans, > >the superb born-to-play-their parts cast were as inch-perfect as the > >people who inhabited that world in the not-too-distant past. I thought > >Ryan Philippe is a disaster waiting to happen but I was pleasantly > >surprised he pulled it off (peripherally related: Reese Witherspoon's > >performance in THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING EARNEST was lovely and her accent > >was not to be faulted but I have this wish that I want to see someone else > >play her role -- an English woman along the likes of Kate Beckinsale). > > Franklin> Calling all "period" film buffs: GO SEE/RENT "GOSFORD > PARK", two or three times if necessary (you won't be alone) - ah, > nuance and it's subtle,baffling, alluring attractions! To Colin I will say that if you left before the last hour of 'Gosford Park', you missed the best part of the movie, imo. I like Altman too and I liked 'Gosford Park' but I thought it was a tad too long on exposition. It took way too long to get to the murder for my taste. Helen Mirren doesn't really get a chance to shine until the very end. Emily Watson is great and Maggie Smith is as well. Alan Bates is almost unrecognizable and gives a brilliant performance. M*A*S*H was the first R-rated movie I ever saw at the tender age of 16. It was at the United Artists theatre in Chicago. What a funny, biting film! And I agree that the television series doesn't begin to compare. And I don't 'get' Alan Alda either. I love 'Nashville' although I find the ending to be very upsetting. I'd like to hear anybody's thoughts on it. Why Barbara Jean? I loved Barbara Harris in this movie. And some of the songs that the actors wrote are a hoot! To me this one is the prime example of Altman's ability to weave a multitude of stories and characters together. 'Short Cuts' comes close to being as successful on that level although there are some things about that movie that I didn't like at all. I thought some of the female nudity was gratuitous. But I loved seeing Annie Ross! She must have done something to make her voice so raw in that one. When I saw her with Jon Hendricks a few years ago, she didn't sound anything like that! 'The Player' really does do a wonderful job of skewering the Hollywood star-maker machinery. I saw the re-constructed 'Touch of Evil' a year or so ago (re-edited using Orson Welles' written instructions) and the long beginning shot in that movie kinda dwarfs Altman's beginning of 'The Player', imo. Another one I love is 'Cookie's Fortune'. Kind of a different one for Altman. Tells a pretty straight-forward, albeit quirky, story. It was great to see Patricia Neal onscreen and Glenn Close and Julianne Moore were both fun to watch. I was in a production of 'Salome' in college (played Jokannon aka John the Baptist) so the church production that Glenn Close's character directs was especially funny for me. I'll have to > check out "In the Bedroom" if only because of the personal status you > assign it. Also, have yet to see "The Importance of Being Earnest", > though several friends whose taste and talents I respect highly have > also recommended it as a "must see". It's now on the list of TTD > (things to do). > And speaking of Oscar Wilde, I played a butler in this one back in college! This is a delightful, perfectly cast version of the play. Dame Judy as Lady Bracknell, Colin Firth as Jack/Ernest, Rupert Everett as Algernon, Reese Witherspoon as Cecily - what better actors to play these parts? The same producers did 'An Ideal Husband' a few years ago and it was also wonderful. Rupert Everett seems to be the perfect modern-day mouthpiece for Oscar Wilde. And Julianne Moore and Cate Blanchett are two of the most talented actresses of this generation, imo. > > > Franklin> Judy Davis! What a gal! She was amazing playing Judy Garland in 'Life With Judy Garland', a tv movie that was adapted from Lorna Luft's book. She was also pretty convincing as Lillian Hellman in 'Hellman and Hammett'. Much as I hate to say it, she was probably a lot closer to what the real Hellman was like than Jane Fonda was in 'Julia', much as I love that particular movie. Judy was also good as George Sand in 'Impromptu'. I wonder if she likes playing parts based on real people's lives? > > That is why some of the most popular actors, who are lauded as being > "great" have spotty filmmatic experiences - the real creative force, > standing between a horrible, mediocre (arguably worse than horrible) > and outstanding performance is the Director... Although I think what you say is true with some actors, I do think there are truly brilliant people who can sometimes transcend the material they have to work with and even a mediocre or bad director. Meryl Streep comes to mind as does Bette Davis. I watched the HBO film 'Wit' last weekend which is practically a one-woman tour-de-force from Emma Thompson. I was amazed by that performance. I haven't seen Russell Crowe in too many movies but he seems to be another actor with true brilliance. Daniel Day-Lewis also comes to mind. Sir Anthony Hopkins has played everything from Richard the Lionheart to Hannibal the Cannibal to Richard 'Tricky Dicky' Nixon (not to mention Titus Andronicus) and scored high marks in each of those roles. Speaking of 'Titus', Jessica Lange is another truly fine actress, imo. I love movies. Maybe I don't discuss them quite as in depth as Franklin & Joseph but I love to talk about them. Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:09:11 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: re: lyrics vs poetry Hi Franklin, Would you say the following is a lyric or a poem? IS THIS is this the higher ground we've been seeking? is this the place where we shed our skin? is this how its supposed to feel? is this way we heal? is this the shade we pull to let the light in? why is it so hard to let go of you and simply let you do what you want to do ? why should that be hard? what is it i really feel i would lose by letting you feel you've got the right to choose or refuse my heart? the key is in the lock that i'm opening as soon as the bird is out on the wing love will let down its guard... this is the higher ground we've been seeking this is the place we shed our skin this is how it feels this is how we heal this is the shade we pull to let the light in cul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:28:20 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #514 i think it fits so well but to each his own...btw, do the critics take tom waitts to task for his voice quality? how bout dylan? well, those two never sang like sparrows in the first place I just listened to disc 2 closely and this time I find nearly all of it to be vocally acceptable, and darn pretty at times, especially toward the close....anyway, I'll get over this smoker's voice thing I guess Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:29:33 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: fresh meat part 2 & hooray for the french - njc Kate ecrites: << but hooooray for the french! they get it!!! >> Oui! C'est vrai! Ooh, la la! --Bob, la little sparrow de la nuit ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:30:03 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: November 23 1968: Joni and Tim Hardin performed a "folk recital" at 8:30 PM at Brooklyn College in Brooklyn, New York. - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:39:26 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: norah jones njc > I saw Norah J in concert a couple of weeks ago and I would agree that she is > beautiful and has a wonderful voice. I love the CD too but was disappointed > with the show in general. The band were mostly competent although the drummer > was plodding and unhelpful. The best moment was Norah alone doing a Horace > Silver number. The songs, almost all of the ones from the CD, were played > almost exactly like the recorded version with little or no development or > variation, i.e. 3 or 4 minutes each song. It sounded exactly like the cd but > with the band present. This was the major disappointment for me. > In contrast, the same week I saw the Mingus Big Band and they were amazing. > > mike in bcn I saw her on Austin City Limits last weekend. I got the impression that she is still not completely comfortable performing in front of a large audience. Her singing was perfect but she didn't have much in the way of stage presence. In one of the interview portions she did say that she was trying not to take all the attention she's getting too seriously. She said something like she has to have somewhere to go so the idea of starting out at the top is not appealing to her. Sounds very sensible and down to earth to me. She also said that she has a relationship with her father but only over the last 3 or 4 years. I think she's great and I enjoy her record more and more. She can only get better. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:58:20 +0100 From: "laurent Fonquerne" Subject: Re: 1st French point of view about Tlog - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick and Susan" To: Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 2:55 AM Subject: Re: 1st French point of view about Tlog > Laurent a ecrit: > > Hi all, > > Here it is, the first article about Travelogue in France. A very very good > > article from Nick Kent in "Libiration". I hope you all can read french ;-) > > http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=68811# > > Here's my attempt at a translation: > > Travelogue > > Joni Mitchell just turned 59 and has chosen this moment to officially > announce the she will not record again. She explains that she can no longer > support the dishonesty and greed of the record companies and the music > industry in general, and prefers to concentrate on her other gift, painting. > > However you interpret it, this declaration is a very bad omen for the future > of popular music in which, over the last thirty-five years, Mitchell has > shown herself to be a vital link, the equivalent of Dylan and Cohen as a > lyricist, and an inspired goldsmith of sublime melodies. > > Travelogue (a 2 CD collection of 22 of her favorite compositions rearranged > and rerecorded with a full symphony orchestra) comes across as her swan > song: a disc of thrilling beauty, an impeccable tour de force and a > demonstration of the timelessness of Mitchell and her songs. Drawn from > every period of her career, these songs, interpreted in a marvelous voice > haloed by wisdom and maturity, include too many highlights to name only one. > > Drop everything and buy this CD at once, in the hopes that it will make her > change her mind. > > > Rick (who only had to use Larousse 3 times to translate this and is pretty > proud of himself.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 04:40:54 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: Michael, Madonna and Joni NJC?? >His skin is now white and his facial features are now caucasian. His skin color is not normal human white (which is actually a range from pinkish white to light tan). Neither are his features Caucasian to me. He appears almost nonhuman (wax museum fodder). I think that he and Madonna have been the only people in this world to reach SUPER MEGA stardom in the music business, but unlike Madonna, he has lost total control of the way people perceive him. He is no longer in the drivers seat. I think that a crash is inevitable and when it happens he may not want anybody to pull him from the flames. Despite of all the negative talk about Madonna(I'm not a fan!!!)she appears to have a tight grip on what it is you think about her. As long as you think about her at all, this is probably more important to her than what you think of her specifically. In the end, (after the initial impact of the statement)I'm not sure that she even cares that Joni bashed her. What's important is that Joni's thinking about her. Will _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 04:57:02 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: Buck-Nicks NJC >Bob >NP: Buckingham-Nicks, "Sorcerer" Shame on you, you're listening to bootlegs again! Will _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 05:06:24 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: [none] >Oh there was that one episode of "I Love Lucy", where Fred put a >roofie in >Ricky's drink and they went at it for hours..........oh >nevermind :~) I actually have this episode on one of those VHS collections of outtakes!! They didn't call it "roofies" though, it was "spanish..." something or other. Will _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 05:07:32 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: ricky/fred NJC >Oh there was that one episode of "I Love Lucy", where Fred put a >roofie in >Ricky's drink and they went at it for hours..........oh >nevermind :~) I actually have this episode on one of those VHS collections of outtakes!! They didn't call it "roofies" though, it was "spanish..." something or other. Will _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:28:59 +0000 From: Rosanella Subject: What's all this about her voice? I've heard and read so much about Joni's voice, that I find it some reviews quite ridiculous. I was listening to Travelogue, and I don't find anything wrong about her voice at all. In fact, it has a soft deep tone to it, that I find very soothing. And it's quite obvious that Joni does not have the voice of a 25 years old. Mick Jagger doesn't either! Or are we supposed to have 'plastic surgery' and 'botox' on vocal chords as well? Often times, I wonder where all the spontaneity has gone. We've lost the plot completely throughout the past 20 years. I'm not a 60's fanatic (I was born then), but we've lost the sense of spontaneity, with the inability to differentiate between a natural progression of events throughout life, i.e. aging, and the commercialization of just about anything we have around us. Air is still not requiring a 'managing directives' of some sort. How long will that last? Regards. Rosanella rosanella@ntlworld.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:46:40 +0800 (PHT) From: Subject: Re: 'Joni's yucky voice' I had the same experience. Friends of mine who are discovering Joni for the first time and were only introduced to her "ravaged" voice of late, wonder why she ever got a recording deal. They thought her voice was not typical of today's singers (these are the same people who haven't heard of the latter-period Maxine Sullivan, Lena Horne, Alberta Hunter and Teri Thornton or heard of these great singers' records when they were younger). Because we recognize in this List that people can have a radically different version from our own, I let that one pass. But the one critique of Joni I find a bit strange and vindictive were those observations coming from people who claim that they used to be fans of hers, but cannot "get" her voice now. That her bell-clear soprano deteriorated to the huskiest of alto and that they took it to mean that her creativity also "died" with the supposed deterioration of her voice. Although, I have to admit that I prefer the 1950s-era Ella Fitzgerald than the 1980s-era Ella, I still think that Joni, like Ella, never lost that creativity. Sure, both women had to push themselves a little harder to make what used to be effortless, happen but its the comparison of the young voice vs.old voice prevents many from truly appreciating what this singer has to say NOW. But I guess most film critiques always make a comparison of the artist's past work to gain insights into the present recording. I have yet to see a review of a relatively senior artist's new work where there is no mention of her/his previous outings. Joseph in MAnila np: "Smoother Escape" - D'Sound > > I actually prefer the husky alto to her peaks-n'-valleys soprano of days > gone by. I think her voice reached its ideal pitch in the mid to late > 70s when it could glide seamlessly over many octaves and multi-syllabic > phrases with ease. But I agree that the critics will generally not be > kind to Joni's singing capabilities this time around. I noticed the > deterioration of her voice even since Both Sides Now but tend to like > it's rusty effect, over all. > > I liked the comparison someone made of Joni's voice to a horn. It is > very brassy these days, sort of trumpet-like and squeaky on the trills. > > However, I think it will only serve to marginalize her even further. If > fans of her work are finding it distracting, imagine what the mainstream > public will think. They won't really know what to make of it. > > I imagine touring this album may prove to be difficult for Joni if her > voice is in rough shape. > > -Andrew > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:00:34 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - Woody, Altman, Sayles In a message dated 11/23/2002 3:09:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: > I love movies. Maybe I don't discuss them quite as in depth as Franklin & > Joseph but I love to talk about them. > Talk away, Mark...always great stuff from you. And if you can sneak in a Jessica Lange mention, even better. Mmmmmmm.... ;~) Bob NP: Joni, "Michael From Mountains" White Swan '67 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:04:23 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Buck-Nicks NJC In a message dated 11/23/2002 4:57:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, willchavez@hotmail.com writes: > Shame on you, you're listening to bootlegs again! > No...shame on the Buck-Nix camp for not releasing this one officially on disc, forcing us all to find it as a boot. "Buckingham-Nicks" is one of the classics imo. "Frozen Love" rocks my world more than anything on Rumours. Bob NP: Joni, "Come To The Sunshine" (oops, another boot!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:39:09 EST From: MWalshkoba@aol.com Subject: Joni, judith and me SJC Dear Listers, As a Joni fan from the 60's, I find myself checking in with the list when I know it will be a buzz. Got my T'logue first thing Tuesday, having called Circuit City to make sure it was stocked, and had it opened and ready to pop in the CD player by the time I got in my car. Anything I have to say about Joni's genius would be redundant. Reading the poetry thread, I remembered there was a similar thread on the list in '97 and there was an excerpt which had a detailed analysis of Marcie which I believe was part of a poetry textbook. I checked the Archives, but they don't go back that far. Too bad. I was an ESOL teacher in Japan for 26 years and often used Circle Game in my poetry classes to introduce Joni. You never know where new fans will be born. I always look for opportunities to spread the Joni word and my greatest triumph was hearing Joni quoted (after a comment by me) by one the leading experts on Domestic Violence. Judith Herman, author of Trauma and Recovery, is presently at work on a book on Justice. I was interviewed by her because of my lengthy court odyssey when trying to extricate myself from my abusive relationship. I couldn't resist telling her that, as I would sit in court watching the machinations of the various players in our criminal justice (or maybe injustice) system, I'd sing Joni songs to myself. My then-husband's case once got continued being bumped by an Ethiopian case since Ethiopian interpreters are harder to come by than Japanese ones. So, I'm humming "Ethiopia" walking out of the courtroom. The ADA says, "Joni couldn't have a song about that!" Even though my ex-husband was found "not guilty" at his jury trial, I felt there was "poetic justice" of a sort when Judith Herman opened her talk on Justice at Radcliffe with the Joni quote from "Sex Kills"...."Is Justice Just Ice?....." So, I was very pleased that "Sex Kills" was included on T'logue. There's a moody sky today in Boston....think I'll head out for a mini-hejira with Belle, the yellow lab I'm minding, and find some trees. Mary ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:52:28 EST From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! Bob said about JT: << The list of great songs he has written is pretty long. The list of superb recordings is even longer. He has the gift of being able to make a cover his own (Handyman, You've Got A Friend). He's been recording as long as Joni, and although I don't put him on her level as a writer, a recording artist doesn't last for 5 decades, continuing to produce new work, on meager talent. >> Then Victor said: <> Damn, but I agree wholeheartedly with both of you. I don't judge a musician/songwriter/performer by sheer skill of the pen, ability on their instrument, or quality of their voice, even. For me, it's all about whether they touch my heart and whether I continue putting their music in my CD player. James does this over and over again as does Joni, of course, and CHERYL WHEELER as well. ;-) Hugs, Ashara {Thrilled for Nikki, Mags and Brian who are seeing Cheryl tonight!!} As Paz would say..........I WANNA GEAUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:02:36 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! In a message dated 11/22/2002 5:41:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, jrgoodspeed@yahoo.com writes: > Do you think he did jump the shark? If so, when? > > I love JT's stuff, no doubt. But if I have to be honest about his shark jumping, I would submit the following: First jump - Walking Man: After a solid debut, and two flawless classics (Sweet Baby James, Mud Slide Slim), and the underrated One Man Dog (I find it a very quirky and fun change of pace, worth the ride for "Don't Let Me Be Lonely Tonight"), Walking Man just seems to drag and is dull, dull, dull. Hard for me to make it all the way to the end. Then he bounces back with the excellent Gorilla & In The Pocket (Julius, let's jam on some of this stuff next fest), and redefines himself with a larger sound than on his basically solo earlier efforts. JT, Flag, Dad Loves His Work...three more bonafide solid efforts!! (except for "Her Town Too", which I loathe, but maybe that's just me). It is here that JT dons the skis again..."That's Why I'm Here" shows him to be pretty much out of ideas. Yes, the release as well as its successors is pleasant enough ear candy, but when it's done nothing seems to stick. But he does get kudos for continuing to push himself and continuing to make enjoyable work, and listening to that mellow voice DOES feel like coming home. More than you wanted to know I'm sure. Bob NP: Joni, "Eastern Rain"...If only THIS beauty had been re-cast on Travelogue!!!! It seems that 'Dawntreader' stands out for all of us on Tlog, how cool would it have been for her to go back and snag a few of these unreleased gems? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:06:18 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Morrison (njc) In a message dated 11/22/2002 6:27:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: > Ray Manzarek (sp?) was a > superb keyboardist, and Robbie Kreiger was no slouch on guitar, either. > BIG Doors fan here, Hell. "When The Music's Over" is my theme song! :~) One of the reasons they worked so well, from what I've read, is that they were a composite of four distinct different genres; Morrison the poet, Manzarek the classicist, Densmore a jazz drummer, and Krieger a blues guitarist. Sounds like it wouldn't work but the proof as we know is right there in the grooves. A classic case of 'the whole is greater than the sum of its parts'. Bob NP: Joni, Morning Morgantown ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:41:26 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! now fortifed with Cheryl Wheeler --- AsharaJM@aol.com wrote: > Bob said about JT: > > << The list of great songs he has written is pretty > long. The list of superb > recordings is even longer. He has the gift of being > able to make a cover > his own (Handyman, You've Got A Friend). He's been > recording as long as > Joni, and although I don't put him on her level as a > writer, a recording > artist doesn't last for 5 decades, continuing to > produce new work, on > meager talent. >> [...] > Ashara {Thrilled for Nikki, Mags and Brian who are > seeing Cheryl tonight!!} > I've never been able to take JT in large doses. I don't know why and there's no point analyzing it. There's a particular shade of purple that I can't stand either and I don't know why on that either. I don't think I'm repressing anything, so let's not go there. I do enjoy a lot of his stuff and I have a few of his albums/CDs, but am not sure I could listen to him sing more than 3-4 songs in a row (OK, I could listen to a whole CD's worth but wouldn't listen to it over and over again the way I can Joni and a few others). I did download an mp3 from one of *those* websites of JT singing "The way you look tonight" live with an orchestra. Does anyone have any idea whether this is on one of his albums? I've checked but I can't seem to find it - maybe I wasn't looking hard enough. Maybe it was a TV performance? Or someone recorded it live at a concert? Does anyone know? I love this recording, as well as his "Christmas Song" that came out last year around Christmas (imagine that!) I'm planning to see Cheryl Wheeler at Hugh's Room in December. I'm really looking forward to it - if it weren't for you, Ashara, I probably wouldn't have heard of her. That's one of the bonuses of being on a list such as this. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:42:37 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! shark jumping --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/22/2002 5:41:52 PM Eastern > Standard Time, > jrgoodspeed@yahoo.com writes: > > > Do you think he did jump the shark? If so, when? > > I had never heard the expression "jump the shark" until a few days ago. Yup. I get it now. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:52:12 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni, judith and me SJC --- MWalshkoba@aol.com wrote: > Dear Listers, > I always look for opportunities to spread the Joni > word and my greatest > triumph was hearing Joni quoted (after a comment by > me) by one the leading > experts on Domestic Violence. Judith Herman, author > of Trauma and Recovery, > is presently at work on a book on Justice. I was > interviewed by her because > of my lengthy court odyssey when trying to extricate > myself from my abusive > relationship. > > I couldn't resist telling her that, as I would sit > in court watching the > machinations of the various players in our criminal > justice (or maybe > injustice) system, I'd sing Joni songs to myself. My > then-husband's case once > got continued being bumped by an Ethiopian case > since Ethiopian interpreters > are harder to come by than Japanese ones. So, I'm > humming "Ethiopia" walking > out of the courtroom. The ADA says, "Joni couldn't > have a song about that!" > > Even though my ex-husband was found "not guilty" at > his jury trial, I felt > there was "poetic justice" of a sort when Judith > Herman opened her talk on > Justice at Radcliffe with the Joni quote from "Sex > Kills"...."Is Justice Just > Ice?....." Have you found that there's a Joni quote for just about every situation in life? I have; moreso since I joined this list. I don't want to start up the Church of Joni thread again, as some found it offensive (I'm not that easily offended, but I'm a Canadian and therefore a wimp, or a weenie, I suppose); however, I find Joni quotes spring to mind and trip off my tongue much more easily than Bible and Shakespeare quotes. I'm sure that, at least once a day, I throw out a Joni-quote, sometimes deliberately, sometimes not; but when it's deliberate, I always wonder whether anyone will spot it. So far no one has. Sigh. Maybe I'm not being obvious enough. Maybe I need to use the really common ones like "both sides now" or "paved paradise; put up a parking lot." On the other hand, when I had my Joni screensavers on my PC at work (before they made us sign those documents saying we wouldn't download anything and we wouldn't alter anything & so on), everyone that spotted them on my computer said, "Oh! Joni Mitchell!" So, there you go. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:17:29 -0600 From: johnirving Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. From: "RSM" Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. First, a caveat: I am not a poet and don't play one on TV. I don't even read much poetry. But, regarding whether Joni's lyrics are poetry or not, I think that the suggestion that they are not poetry because they are not "condensed" or "stripped down" overlooks the majority of what we call poetry. Certainly there is poetry, particularly modern poetry, that is very spare in use of words. However, just because it is not a haiku does not make it less than poetry. The moment I pressed 'send' on my post, I knew someone would reply from this train of thought. When I speak of Poetry being condense, I do not mean Haiku, or brevity of words. Certainly poetry can be free form as well as long. The compression I mean is one of language and thought. The essence of poetry is verbal and conceptual density. The many ways to that are quite complex and exhilarating. For example, using non-poetry mind you as my example: Waiting for Godot is a deeply complex, conceptual work and yet the written line is matter of fact, plain speak bordering on gibberish. And yet, in spite of simplicty of dialogue, there is a complexity of thought the average joe could not begin to wrap their brains around. Poetry is like that. There is a density and condensation of thought and word play. Joni Mitchell's lyrics are certainly poetic and beautiful. Beautiful enough to warrant contemplation and reading. But they are not poetry. The Complete Poems and Lyrics does not work as a stand alone book of poetry, in spite of the artful cover and title. It is an unsatifying read as a book of poetry. Perhaps a professor of English could speak at length to the whys better than I can. I'm reading Shadows and Light right now and as lovely as it is, it is too straight forward a piece of writing to work as Poetry. "Every picture has it's shadows and it has some source of light." is too declarative a thought -as is the entire song- to be poetry. A poem wouldn't tell you every picture has it's shadows. It would simply BE the thing. (Not sure if I'm making sense...) The condensation of thought would strip away the declarative and the reader would discover, by discription, or words alone that the shadows mentioned in the piece are in fact the shadows of a painting. That would turn the writing into Poetry. Not by mere compression of word, but compression of thought, a poem, through condesation, says a lot more than what is literally written, however long the passage: eg. From the Poem 'About Opera' by William Meredith: What dancing is to the slightly spastic way Most of us teeter through our bodily life Are these measured cries to the clumsy things we say, In the heart's duresses, on the heart's befalf. - -The thoughts being expressed in that stanza would fill a digest in common spoken language. I am partnered with a Poet. (He just handed me that passage, btw...) With over 200,000 books in the house (!!!), I can't move from room to room without tripping over Poetry in one form or another. From the early Greeks to the most contemporary writers, he's read it all. I know exactly what HE would say if I asked him if Joni were a poet. I would get that same look I get when he wanders by the tv set when I'm watching Star Trek, and they characters are speaking space speak: "Captain, the triambic radiation is interfering with the targetting scanners..." Actually, he didn't effort a grunt when I posed the question to him. I would trust his informed judgement. I'm not sure why we would want to cast Joni's lyrics in such an unflattering light as to put them in the realm of Poetry. Especially on the heels of her brilliant triumph T'log. These lyrics are among the most brilliant song lyrics in the history of mankind. As poetry, Wiliam Meredith or Donald Justice is running nuclear rings around this stuff. Why pale her work by such comparison? Which brings up a bit of irony I'm afraid to mention, but thought of when I opened the T'log package: I find it curious that Joni devotes so much of her worth to a medium that she is a minor player in, when as a writer/singer/composer she is unparalleled in the history of mankind. That's like Einstein devoting himself to carving wildlife... Shakespear idling his time in the joys of baking bread... I mean, really. Certainly, her painting is lovely and I wouldn't have her put her brushes down for a moment. Some of her pieces are downright magnificent... As a singer/composer she is not only one of the top 20 human beings among the billions living, but billions in the entire history of the planet as well. As a painter, the peers her equal or better, just in the southern Cal area alone would popuate a small city. (Not to cast dispersions on her art. Just a statement of how many good artists there are out there doing good stuff.) Why would I want to cast her painting in an unflattering light by holding them up to High Art? Or her music to Poetry? I would rather contempate her work for what it is: Popular song raised to it's highest zeinith. She is the queen of musical beauty. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 06:56:17 -0800 From: "RSM" Subject: Re: joni as a poet I found a fascinating interview of Joni on the web at http://www.kgsr.com/iTOOLIncludes/6305.php . Probably an article knocked around here before, but for newbies, really intriguing. It really gives you some insight into where Joni is coming from. She describes how she balances painting, poetry and writing music: "So psychologically, I think, that the switching from poetry to painting and back to music, there are three different psychologies, really. When you paint, you shut down the inner dialogue completely. You come down to synapses, you know, and occasionally an voice, like Robbie the Robot, goes "Red in the upper right-hand corner." You know, it comes down to impulses. Poetry is almost insane. You have to stir up overlapping thoughts, chaos in your mind and then pluck from it. Without the painting to clear the head, I don't think I could do it. And the music has always been -- you know, the music, I think, is a true gift and has always been kind of soothing to me and not a problem. You know, the poetry is psychologically dangerous and the painting kind of balances it out." She also touches on many of the issues we have been knocking around. A must read, I think. Ron in LA - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:44 PM Subject: Re: joni as a poet > My little desk dictionary defines "poet" as "a creative artist of great sensitivity." Fits Joni to a "T" methinks.(But now I'm wondering how the expression "to a T" originated. Anyone? Class? Jimmy? Jenny? Bueller? :-) > > Bonus definition: > > poetaster - n. : an inferior poet. (and looky...there's a picture of eminem next to it) ;-) > > -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 07:07:18 -0800 From: "RSM" Subject: Adam Durtz Diaries [again?] I sent this earlier but it did not come back on Outlook express. Sorry if it pops up twice. Here is an interesting web page which I have to bet has been brought up before. Apparently Adam Durtz of Counting Crows (or someone who purports to be him) has an online diary. On 5/21/02 he speaks of Amsterdam, Blue and an encounter with JM in a studio when she was recording T'log. Good stuff. http://adam.countingcrows.com/5-21-02.html Ron in LA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:37:44 -0600 From: johnirving Subject: About that Meredith poem... My partner is sharp as a whip... That poem he just handed me speaks to the heart of what we've all been gushing about with Travelogue the last few days. So I'm including it here in it's entirety: About Opera It's not the tunes, although as I get older Arias are what I hum and whistle. It's not the plots-they continue to bewilder In the tongue I speak and in several that I wrestle. An image of articulateness is what it is" Isn't this how we've always longed to talk? Words as they fall are monotone and bloodless. But they yearn to take the risk these noises take. What dancing is to the slightly spastic way Most of us teeter through our bodily life Are thes measured cries to the clumsy thing we say, In the heart's duresses, on the heart's behalf. That is the essential joy of Joni's music. In our clumsy day to day life and common speak, we yearn to say beautiful, meaningful heartfelt things. We yearn to hear them as well. Enter Joni, who comes along and offers up in two year increments, gifts of perfect expression that fill our hearts to fullness. Wouldn't we all love to shuck monotone and bloodless words and speak with such eloquent beauty??? Her's is the gift of life being right. If for but a few hours of listening. j. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:36:28 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Jordan / Jill Hennessy In a message dated 11/21/02 Lori writes: > Speaking of gays and lesbians portrayed on American television, did > anyone catch "Crossing Jordan" last Monday night? The lover of > a "conservative" lesbian psychiatrist/talk show host was murdered, and > of course Jordan was involved in solving the case. The secondary story > was the attraction between Jordan and the doctor, who was portrayed as > professional, attractive, and neither too femme nor too butch. The > story was rather nicely done ... unfortunately, Jordan had to admit > she's not gay ... : ( > > Lori, > a big fan of Jill Hennessey > > I may be redundant here, being several digests behind and replying in order, but Jill Hennessey (sp ? I dunno) is also a big fan of JM - face appearing often in the audience at the JM Tribute Concert onTNT. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:02:45 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: JM v Dylan Kate recounted (then commented) > "After 35 years in the business, the original woman with a guitar is one of > few artists on a par with Bob Dylan." > > quite an assumption (and subtly sexist at that)...that dylan is the one to > be on a par with...how about dyan is one of the few artists to be on a par > with joni? i know, preaching to the choir here but i could not help myself > ;~O > > The choir is not satisfied - "but how could Dylan possibly be considered on a par with Joni as far as the music goes ? Does the music count for naught ? Will someone who is a Dylan fan please explain this to me ?" I can understand the concept that Dylan's influence has exceeded Joni's (at least in terms of breadth of impact), but the phrase was - "artists on a par with". Bob S - still thinks the emperor has no clothes on ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:05:52 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? >> >Franklin had blathered> I beg to differ, Andrew. There is a WORLD >>of >difference between a lyricist and a poet. The term lyricist >>would imply >someone who is addressing the specific needs of a song >>- generally three >> > (rarely four) chords meant to charm 16.00 out of a 14-25 year old. >>> Repetition, hooks, "catchy" chorus are all part of the "game". Franklin, chastising Franklin> "The term lyricist would imply, etc". Franklin, you should have at least put an "lol" after that last statement. Now I know that there is some truth in all jest, but without the "signal" at the end, your statement was taken out of the context you might have meant and your point was lost....Stop being so pretentious and thin-skinned (you Irish...sometimes, I'll tell ya'##**# lol). Most people actually seem to accept you here (don't ask me why???). Lighten up and enjoy the new, developing, kind, intelligent friendships you're appreciating. And BTY, Victor's right - - stop taking everything so seriously... we've talked about this before. Relax, and just take a DEEP breath. Franklin, humbly (what???)> You're right. Schucks, I keep forgetting about that ol' pretentiousness demon... When yur' always right, he's not supposed to be necessary..har har Guess I've got to remember that my "judgeship" nomination hasn't even gotten through the Senate logjam yet- and it could be MONTHS OR YEARS... LOL >>Also, just because a song is simple and has simple lyrics does not mean it >>did not take great skill to write. In fact, it is very difficult to create >>something that is very simple and yet comes across as brilliant. . >>>Many of his songs may seem simplistic on the surface but >>they are more complex than they seem. > >Yesterday...Beatles..... and the list goes on..Somone To Watch Over >Me..Somewhere Over The Rainbow..Harold Arlen... Franklin> Points well taken - as well as correct. Franklin to Franklin> There, it wasn't that difficult now was it? Now be a good boy and go rake the leaves... Hail, hail democracy (might as well, while it still exists...(WINK). >Good points... Bree You guys are the BOMB! lol Franklin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>--- Victor Johnson >>--- waytoblu@mindspring.com >>Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson >> >>Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 >>Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:09:44 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: NJC Only the nose knows.... >Bree stated> The nose knows. He's funny.. I was thinking you were >a California kind of guy... Franklin> Well, gosh, gee I could be... Are you from down that way Bree? >Bree>Be good.. Franklin> I'm workin' at it...lol >Bree > >>>>Bob had brilliantly countered> Not if Britney makes a guest >>>>appearance on Will and Grace that same night. >> >>Franklin> Hey Bree, now would that be Bob's nose, or mine? Any >>thoughts/comments on this Bob? I know I could use one - it's >>gettin' cold up here in Minnesnowta! lol Love being here with YOU >>too, Bree, whether that kiss is fur' me or not! :) >> >>>>Franklin >>> >>> >>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online >>>http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:12:03 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: JM v Dylan At least in my head, Joni is hailed as being on par with Dylan and not the other way around, is that Dylan had a good 8 years of recordings and acclaim before Joni recorded Songs to a Seagull and so is her superior by years, but once Joni began cranking out the masterpieces, it was obvious that hardly no other artist had put out such solid work (and I think that her first 5 albums were all her songs and not covers, helped establish her with street cred, and on top of that the cover of Twisted was not a cop off like as if she did "Bridge over Troubled Water" or "yesterday", but "Twisted" was more like a Joni song) But, I think we all get this already :) ANd then, sometimes, I do think the comparisons between the two can be sexist, depending on which publication/writer is giving their opinion. Musically, there is no similarity. Bob's Music is more traditional in a blues way (especially the last 2 albums) and Joni's is more I don't know, Joni. When people ask me, what does she sound like, or "Is she Folk" I just say, "her music is Joni Music" I don't think most of it fits any defined category. Blair F NP:Ain't nothing like the real thing-Laura Nyro >Kate recounted (then commented) > > > "After 35 years in the business, the original woman with a guitar is one >of > > few artists on a par with Bob Dylan." > > > > quite an assumption (and subtly sexist at that)...that dylan is the one >to > > be on a par with...how about dyan is one of the few artists to be on a >par > > with joni? i know, preaching to the choir here but i could not help >myself > > ;~O > > > > >The choir is not satisfied - "but how could Dylan possibly be considered on >a >par with Joni as far as the music goes ? Does the music count for naught ? >Will someone who is a Dylan fan please explain this to me ?" > >I can understand the concept that Dylan's influence has exceeded Joni's (at >least in terms of breadth of impact), but the phrase was - "artists on a >par >with". > >Bob S - still thinks the emperor has no clothes on ;-) _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #516 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)