From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #513 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, November 22 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 513 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: euphamisms njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] RRe: Mitchell, Dulson and Klein or why can't we go on as 3 (oops wrong list) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Will & Grace - njc [Jerry Notaro ] Re: euphamisms njc [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Lyricists as poets??? [Susan Guzzi ] Re: Will & Grace - njc ["Lori Fye" ] brushes with greatness...njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Joni Will & Grace NJC [Susan Guzzi ] NJC Rosie ["Kate Bennett" ] UK Review -- OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? [Franklin Shea ] RE: jill hennessey NJC [Alison E ] Re: you losers/Now NJC [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! [Jenny Goodspeed ] RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC, now Six Feet Under ["Sybil Skelton" ] Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) ["mack watson-bush" ] "Joni's yucky voice" [Little Bird ] Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC, now Six Feet Under ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Will & Grace - njc [Little Bird ] Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: NJC - Woody, Altman, Sayles [Gertus@aol.com] Re: Is Joni a poet? Morrison (njc) ["hell" ] jumping the shark - carol lay - NJC ["Cynthia Vickery" ] Re: Will & Grace - njc ["Kate Bennett" ] just for fun njc ["mack watson-bush" ] SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! [nyroman ] Re: Will & Grace - njc [colin ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:10:06 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: euphamisms njc Colin writes: << jerkin the gherkin >> And you know there may be many, many more. Check out The World's Largest Collection of Masturbation Synonyms at << http://www.WorldWideWank.com/synonyms.html >> It has male, female and foreign language categories. Many the "synonyms" are very funny. (It's where I got "purple-headed custard chucker.") --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:12:32 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RRe: Mitchell, Dulson and Klein or why can't we go on as 3 (oops wrong list) definately her loss but michelle (& steve's) gain! Kate wrote: > steve, word on the street is that it was those seabird pants of yours that > you insisted on showing her that caused her to cross you off her list of > eligible bachelors... :~} Kakki replied >>Awww...Joni's big mistake LOL ;-) Kakki, hoping Joni would find someone as nice as Mr. Dulson<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:25:30 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? > > Franklin> James is exaggerating a wee bit here. He's >> actually written the same four (OK, maybe six) songs >150 times. The problem is that only the ORIGINAL four >to six of them were worthy of recognition > > >Jenny responded>The poster child for musical innovation, James is not. > But, if you're saying JT wrote only 4-6 songs worthy >of recognition, I have to disagree. > >Now he "jumped the shark" (hee hee), with the release >of Flag, but prior to that wrote lots of great songs >and had 2 nearly perfect albums with Mud Slide... and >JT. > >Yes he earns his bread and butter on a few precious >and not-so-precious hits - and it is a dismal >experience to see him in concert and be surrounded by >people who only want to hear songs off his greatest >hits - but he has made his mark as a songwriter -- not >pushing the boundaries or making waves, but by writing >little gems that have their place in the soundtracks >of many of our lives (sounds like a bad hallmark, I >know, but it is true). Franklin> An undying JT fan I'm obviously not...and I stand by my "personal" assessments; but I'm sure he'd be wonderful dinner company - - just imagine the stories he could tell spanning a thirty year period. I also think he is a VERY underrated acoustic guitar picker. In short, I've got nothing against James, his successes, his career, his financial windfalls. Not in the least. Seems to me that it couldn't happen to a nicer guy. I can understand and appreciate that he's been contributed musical blessings in yours, as well as many others lives Jenny. I did think some of my "opinions" might garner a little disagreement - some more honest and considerate than others. As always Jenny, your response was the picture of composure, grace and consideration. But, then again - what else would I expect from one such as you? ;) Franklin NP Rod Stewart "Every Picture Tells a Story" at least 4/5ths "filler-free". Classic, original, groundbreaking sound and songs. Who hasn't loved a "Maggie"? Ron Woods! Now can that guy play acoustic/electric/slide in an original way or what - almost - and I emphasize ALMOST - the Ry Cooder of England. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:24:42 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Will & Grace - njc I've seen that. How many straight men don't come out about their sexuality? How many straight men would have starred in Billy's Hollywood Screen Kiss? How many straight men could play an annoying gay man so convincingly? What do I know. I watch the show for Karen. Jerry Little Bird wrote: > We may never know... In any case, I find him annoying. > > From Gay.com > > When it comes to his sexuality, Hayes doesn't really want the public > to know. "I don't wanna say I'm straight or I'm gay," he told > Hollywood Online in 1998, "I want to keep everything open so as no one > can form any opinions about me, because this world that we live in > isn't all that forgiving." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:24:30 -0500 From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: euphamisms njc LOL! That site's a panic, Bob...just like you. I'm particularly amused by "badgering the witness," not that I'm a litagator or anything... - -Julius npimh: Murphy sauntering across the lawn at Jonifest whining: "Alison, I'm horny again." LOL!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:26:51 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Lyricists as poets??? - --- David Marine wrote: > As Kate has pointed out, Joni clearly considers herself a poet. And of > course she should. Again, to clarify, ALL lyrics are poetry. Poetry has been > created for thousands of years. It existed long before the written word. > Much of what we consider the best of Elizabethan poetry was chanted or sung. > So was Homer's poetry, etc. > > Maybe it would be better to reformulate the question: do Joni's poems need > to be matched to her melodies in order to retain their beauty and power? To > me, the answer with many of them is a resounding NO. "The Complete Poems and > Lyrics" is the best evidence. > All this talk about poetry now.... I completely agree David and Kate. Joni's lyrics and I know cause I have done this with people in the past can absolutely be recited as poetry! Too many of you have pigeon-holed all poets, here. There are haikus and sonnets and prose and some that rhyme and others that don't some are concise and concentrated others are totally free form. Have some of you never been to a poetry slam?! Now your opinion on whether it is art or good I do not question. Other have cited Joni lyrics here that absolutely stand alone as poetry. Joni's lyrics - the bulk of her works anyway - can without question be considered poetry and therefore, the Guz declares our Joni a poet. So be it! ;-) In fact before fest this year I believe a few of us here or off line discussed doing recitation of Joni lyrics as poetry. Still think it would be a fun workshop or project. Especially for some of our more theatrical listers/festers. Having known a 2x National Poetry Slam winner, I can tell you they are great story tellers and would never try to be so defining as to eliminate another style or be so biased on what their opinion of poetry is or should be. They just love the art and freedom of expression and our Joni has all that going for her in her poetry - and more! Peace, Susan Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:29:51 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Will & Grace - njc > What do I know. I watch the show for Karen. As do I! I love the character, and Megan Mullally plays it well! Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:32:55 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: brushes with greatness...njc lori >>>Every once in awhile when I catch the show, I find myself saying aloud, "Niles, will you just come out already??!!" Frasier, too.<<< a few years ago i was walking with my dog on the beach near my house...as is my habit when with my dog, i always notice the other dogs on the beach before i notice their 'people'...so we came upon someone with their dog (small, can't remember the breed) & our dogs start doing the dog sniffing thing...okay, they like each other...(relief) & so then i look up to see that the owner is niles! (but at that moment i don't remember his real name...) so i just laughed & said hi...funny moment...in fact that is my usual reaction when coming upon a comedian (many in this town)- jonathan winters, dennis miller, the backtothefuture mad scientist....i just start laughing... (victor...HAHAHAHAHAHAHA) ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:32:56 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! AMEN to the praises others have given to sweet baby james...one of the greats... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:35:20 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: NJC Our current "media" culture's tolerance levels >Franklin writes: > ><< we're all going to have the option to watch Iraq destroyed, live, before >our very eyes! The ratings are going to go through the roof >> > >Bob scores>Not if Britney makes a guest appearance on Will and Grace >that same night. Franklin quickly acquiesces> Damn, Bob. Never thought of that angle. You're 100% correct though... Then again - there's Jacko, Emminem, Pamala Anderson et.al, just waiting in the wings to upstage that "little" confrontation (dare I say, spanking) that G.Dub is going to give Saddam. ;) :) Franklin NP Still Rod Stewart - tol' ya'it was almost "FF"! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:35:57 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) > Are we getting a little "paranoid" again Victor - is it that "stress" > thing again - or are you just feeling like taking a little "pot shot" > to appease whatever demons you're currently wrestling with? I'm > serious - which? Do me a favor - if that's within your capacity - > leave me be. Your scarcasm is self-belittling and I don't care to > read/participate in the personal car crashes. I find it interesting that within one hour you have trashed only both James Taylor and Bob Dylan, but all lyricists in general and yet when someone a subtle statement you are so quick to lash out. For your information, I have never been paranoid and the only person who seems a little stressed is you. Really, I wouldn't take all of this so seriously. Victor NP: JOni "Ray's Dad's Cadillac" - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:55:18 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Will & Grace - njc > "I don't wanna say I'm straight or I'm gay," >>Which would mean that he's gay as a straight guy would never say that. He might if he was playing a recurrent gay character, anxious to have it be seen as legitimate. Some actors live in Tibet for a year preparing for a role, it's not a stretch to have a person not reveal his or her sexuality, particulary if you're on TV each week as a gay character. But you're probably right. I think what gets me about the show is that it's seen as a "gay show" when it's anything but. There's enough heterosexual content in it to make it palatable to the masses, which is one of the reasons why Ellen failed - it was TOO LESBIAN for mainstream audiences. W&G is made for straight audiences who happen to like those "quirky little gays" in the periphery of their lives. There's just something clownish and insulting about it. The day I see Will or Jack give their respective boyfriends a long, sensuous kiss on screen, the way Grace does with her love interest, is the day I may start watching it. But Karen is hilarious: "Honey, I suck the alcohol out of my deodorant stick, okay? I don't care what kind of wine we're drinking!" (I secretly tune in just to see her...) - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:00:37 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: RE: Joni Will & Grace NJC As for Will & Grace, I may as well weigh in. I hate it. I'm gay and find it sort of offensive to watch two straight men act like gay men. Something about it rubs me the wrong way. It's the new version of "blackface" in show business, getting heteros to play homos as stereotypically as possible while homos are eternally kept in the broadway chorus lines. Show me a show about REAL gay lives and maybe I'll be interested. And, no, don't get me started on Queer As Folk... Andrew, Hi and welcome, I have been enjoying your young fresh outlook on Joni. However, my brother, I too am gay and would find it limiting to say that only queers may play queers - as should str8 actors play only str8 roles. Imagine how many out of work queers we would have! LOL! I know it would be nice to get the best perspective but that's up to a producer to find the best artist for a role without choosing by sexual orientation. And it would be hard in one show to tell how all gay folk live, because we are as diversified as the str8 world - although we do have or own little traditions and culture, which is kind of cool. But the world is now a melting pot and we must go in the mix as well and with pleasure as we become more and more a part of the mainstream as glacierally slow as it sometimes seems. ;-) I happen to agree with you on QAF - I think it sucks - well except for Sharon Gless! Peace, Susan Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:03:18 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: NJC Rosie >>My teenage son, on the other hand, got it immediately! Must be a "guy thing".<< it is, it was a guy who filled me in on what that song was about when it was released...otherwise i wouldn't have had a clue either... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:05:38 -0500 From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: UK Review -- OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Couldn't get much worse than this. I don't agree with her take on the music but I can understand that, for most critics and the public, the voice is now too far gone. This is sad. Betty Clarke Friday November 22, 2002 The Guardian Buy Joni Mitchell: Travelogue at Amazon.co.uk More pop CD reviews If the health warning isn't enough to put you off cigarettes, the nicotine-ravaged vocals of the once angelic, now gasping Joni Mitchell should. Mitchell's voice is a husky shadow of its former feather-light glory, mirroring how her joyful, playful attitude has dwindled to bitter dissatisfaction. Having announced that this is her final album, Mitchell has reappraised her work with a huge orchestral makeover. She has already explored such classical territory on 2000's Both Sides Now, and here she slides easily among the brass and crashing cymbals of the 70-piece orchestra. Songs from her jazz-fusion era adapt well: the venomous For the Roses is now more scathing and the brooding drama of Just Like This Train has become an attack. Sex Kills, from 1994's Turbulent Indigo, proves her skills as social commentator remain sharp amid the screeching strings. But the blustering instrumentation kills her fragile poetry and the earth-bound vocals negate any magic, rendering this double album a leaden memorial to a shining talent. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:28:17 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? > > Franklin politely commented> I beg to differ, Andrew. There is a >WORLD of >difference between a lyricist and a poet. The term >lyricist would imply >someone who is addressing the specific needs >of a song - generally three > >(rarely four) chords meant to charm 16.00 out of a 14-25 year old. > > Repetition, hooks, "catchy" chorus are all part of the "game". > >Victor emphatically states>Sorry but you are completely wrong. Franklin> OH SHIT!! AGAIN???? >Victor> Lyric writing is an art within itself Franklin>It's an "art within itself" alright - at least as far as you're concerned. Now if you meant to say that it is an "art in itself" I'd probably disagree. I believe most songwriters, including the author of the bestseller "The Craft of Lyrical Songwriting" would consider it a craft. >Victor>and the type of song you are speaking of is a tiny fraction >of what exists in the world as lyrics- Franklin> A TINY FRACTION?? What planet did you say you're from? Listened to any commercial radio lately - like in the last twenty years? >Victor, assertively>it certainly doesn't fly as a definition of what >it means to be a lyricist and comes off as somewhat pretentious. Franklin> Only somewhat? Oh SHIT - I blew it again... darn! BTY definitions don't need to "fly". They simply need to serve a specific purpose, suitable to the term, condition or situation at hand... >Victor> It is very difficult to write good lyrics Franklin> I'll assume this is a personal confession... difficult for who? That's an unmerited assumption. I've read scads of articles involving songs I've found to be lyrically sophisticated, tasteful and wonderful where the writer says, "it just all flowed right off the pen." >Victor, vehemently> and the fact that they are put to music does not >make them less worthy than poetry. It is just different, period. Franklin> Wasn't saying it wasn't. Just making a very real and undeniable distinction. You're talking apples and oranges here son. It's not something being "put to music" as you so eloquently stated, that makes it less worthy - as Bill (Bubba) Clinton would say: "It's the form/content stupid." Maybe it would help if some of these "master" lyricists would start with the words instead...of visa versa... Then there wouldn't be filler chords AND filler lyrics to grace them. >Victor>There are brilliant lyricists just as there are brilliant poets...Neil >Peart, Robert Hunter(lyricist for the Grateful Dead), Joni Mitchell, Tom >Waits, Bernie Taupin, the list goes on... Franklin> Never said there weren't. BTY, I consider some on that list to be poets/prosodists, at times anyway. > >Victor>Also, just because a song is simple and has simple lyrics >does not mean it did not take great skill to write. In fact, it is >very difficult to create >something that is very simple and yet comes across as brilliant. Franklin> You're tellin' me? Once again, difficult for who? Be more specific, who are you speaking for - which artists? >Victor> Neil Young and James Taylor in particular have mastered the >art of writing simple songs that are incredibly deep and powerful. >I wouldn't knock James Taylor so much. Many of his songs may seem >simplistic on the surface but they are more complex than they seem. Franklin> I wouldn't categorize Neil Young with JT. In any event, whose "knocking" JT? I simply stated some opinions regarding his body of work. You sound like G.DUB - "don't knock our Great Country (in other words, my political, freedom-stripping agenda) or you're a TRAITOR!" Or should I paraphrase good ol' Forrest Gump: "simple is as simple goes". You can whine and take PERSONAL snipes about my opinions all you want, but that isn't going to change them. Perhaps taking less emotive, more intellectually based approach might be a start though... Just a suggestion. One of the big differences between your approach and mine is that I don't "duck". I don't have to! >Victor>Just as there are good and bad poets Franklin> That's an oxymoron if I ever heard one! (thanks, I collect them). There are no "bad" poets - only failed pretenders. Poetry is the conveyance of inspired truth - thus, there are only true poets. Not "good and bad" ones. Time is the arbiter. Did you realize that when Keats, Yeats, Longfellow, et.al, were writing, there were literally TENS of THOUSANDS of "poets" writing "poetry" books being published. Go try to find any of THEM in a bookstore - used or otherwise. >Victor> as there are good and bad lyricists. Franklin> Ain't that the solemn truth! >Victor> And IMO, lyricists would like to be known as lyricists and >not something else, as if lyric writing is somehow a lower art than >poetry. Franklin> We're ALL entitled to our opinion (try to remember that, please!!! Victor). And yes, unfortunately, as time will attest, lyric-writing is a lower "art" as you call it, than poetry. I would simply suggest that the two are mutually exclusive - truely timeless poetry being the "art", while contemporary lyric-writing would probably be considered more of a "craft" by most literary experts. Now before you get "all stressed out" over that; remember, it doesn't demean the noble craft of lyric-writing. It simply describes its self-fulfilling placement in the hierarchy of literature. >Franklin > > > > > > >--- Victor Johnson >--- waytoblu@mindspring.com >Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson > >Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 >Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:29:18 -0800 (PST) From: Alison E Subject: RE: jill hennessey NJC >Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:32:14 -0800 >From: "Lori Fye" .>Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC >The >story was rather nicely done ... unfortunately, >Jordan had to admit >she's not gay ... : ( >Lori, >a big fan of Jill Hennessey OH, ME TOO ME TOO! Law and Order just isn't the same without her....all these skinny little conservative girlie types they've had since her... hennessey kicked ass in that role. and now diane wiest is gone too! sniffle! alison e. in slc, joining victors "waiting for travelogue to get here" support group...mine's on the way from amazon. np: peter salett Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:37:12 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: you losers/Now NJC a second opinion...and probably biased because I'm a huge Ellen fan. I watched every episode, the writers struggled, but Ellen and Cloris Leachman were hilarious - it never got an audience because, though Ellen lobbied hard against it, it got stuck in a Friday at 9 pm time slot. Jenny (who realizes she just admitted she stays home most Friday nights.) Lori Fye wrote:> oh and laso noticed a new Ellen sho called the Ellen Show. > did that bomb? Yes, and with good reason. It was lame. Lori ~ Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:41:24 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: Even though this may be his shark-jumping moment (I would argue against that), it has two of his most powerful songs on it; "Millworker" & "Sleep Come Free Me". You're right Bob. I love Company Man too. I guess for me though the album as a whole doesn't grab me like many of his earlier ones. Do you think he did jump the shark? If so, when? Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:55:17 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: Joni Will & Grace NJC Susan wrote: would find it limiting to say that only queers may play queers - as should str8 actors > play only str8 roles. So right Susan. The many instances of straight, well, we think, actors playing gay is growing quite large. And some of them do it so well. Russell Crowe in 'The Sum of Us', for instance. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:48:42 -0500 From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #508 - jazz voice > As I listen to Travelogue, I notice more and more that Joni is in fine voice > for swingin'! > Be Cool, Flat Tires, God Must Be A Boogie Man, these all come across so well > and her vocal energy seems heightened, and not just because > of the > up-tempo-ness of these compositions I agree, the jazz(y) tunes on T'log are clearly vocally superior to the rest (in general, though Woodstock, Dawntreader and Borderline are "strong" vocals too). I also like the way she jazzily croons her way through For the Roses, a new approach. Frankly though, I am having a lot of trouble getting around the smoker's voice in many of the songs. I find it distracting. I think from this point on the critics (it has already begun) are going to savage Joni for vocal deterioration. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:01:54 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) Lori wrote: Really? I loved that album. I drove my '69 VW Bug through a wicked > thunderstorm in eastern Wyoming (on my move from North Dakota to > Arizona) while listening to Flag and HOSL. Good memories ... Right on Lori. Great album. Surely above average with superb moments within. If I can wrench DED out of the player, I will have to give it a listen. As for James in general, I really love the tune 'shower the people.' As someone referred to, it does have a catch but when he sings 'if it feels nice, don't think twice' I am caught and those words were very reinforcing and strengthening in those years of wondering whether or not sleeping with another man was something that I should be doing. You bet your ass it was. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:54:55 -0800 (PST) From: Alison E Subject: RE: happy birthday rick NJC on 11/20/02 12:17 AM, CoyoteRick@aol.com at CoyoteRick@aol.com wrote: Wishing you a very belated but nonetheless heartfelt and sincere.... HAPPY BIRTHDAY RICK! you're one of my most favorist left-coasters! ;-) the only man who has ever baked a cake for me! i lurve ya! say hi to brad. love and hugs, alison e. in slc Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:57:44 -0600 From: "Sybil Skelton" Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC, now Six Feet Under Maggie asks: >What do you think >of the gay character (whose name I have forgotten, of course, since I'm >old), on Six Feet Under and the job that the actor who plays him does? I'd be interested too. There are actually 2 gay characters on that show (neither of whose names I can recall because I am also old) and I believe they have indulged in long, passionate kisses as well as some more graphic behavior as well. I think I've even seen full frontal male nudity on that show - quite shocking even for HBO. I think they do an excellent job with those characters, and the actors are amazing. But then everyone on that show is amazing. Sybil _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:58:19 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Will & Grace - njc I think what gets me about the show is that it's seen as a "gay show" when it's anything but. There's enough heterosexual content in it to make it palatable to the masses, which is one of the reasons why Ellen failed - it was TOO LESBIAN for mainstream audiences. W&G is made for straight audiences who happen to like those "quirky little gays" in the periphery of their lives. There's just something clownish and insulting about it. It's just a sitcom...so I'm reluctant to debate, but I just want to say that you're right it is made to be palatable to the masses - the point of the show is to draw as many viewers as it can so that advertisers shell out the bucks. But who are these straight people who want quirky little gays in the periphery of their lives? I guess I feel that's insulting. All kinds of people enjoy the show. All the characters are stereotypical to some extent - neurotic, single jewish woman, the Irish drunk.... The day I see Will or Jack give their respective boyfriends a long, sensuous kiss on screen, the way Grace does with her love interest, is the day I may start watching it. This just may be the season that happens. Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:05:48 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) Franklin wrote: Are you asking, implying, insulting or just assaulting? Have read countless posts by this man Victor and have never found him to be anything but polite. Insulting, assaultive? I don't think he has it in him and if he does, he hides it well and must be too much of a gentleman to let it out. > Are we getting a little "paranoid" again Victor hehehehehe mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:07:53 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: small NJC Colin asked: > has anyone noticed how small letters are becoming? Yes, and it sucks. I have to take my glasses off to read these days. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:05:34 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: "Joni's yucky voice" I met a man in Montreal once in the "M" section of a record store who was looking through the Joni CDs. I told him I was a fan too and we looked through some of them together. He said he only liked her music up until Wild Things Run Fast because after that, he said, "Her voice got yucky." I actually prefer the husky alto to her peaks-n'-valleys soprano of days gone by. I think her voice reached its ideal pitch in the mid to late 70s when it could glide seamlessly over many octaves and multi-syllabic phrases with ease. But I agree that the critics will generally not be kind to Joni's singing capabilities this time around. I noticed the deterioration of her voice even since Both Sides Now but tend to like it's rusty effect, over all. I liked the comparison someone made of Joni's voice to a horn. It is very brassy these days, sort of trumpet-like and squeaky on the trills. However, I think it will only serve to marginalize her even further. If fans of her work are finding it distracting, imagine what the mainstream public will think. They won't really know what to make of it. I imagine touring this album may prove to be difficult for Joni if her voice is in rough shape. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:14:00 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC, now Six Feet Under Sybil wrote: think I've even seen full frontal male nudity on that > show - quite shocking even for HBO Hate 6 feet. It seems so dark, so creepy to me. But maybe it is the theme of the funeral home for death, as a nurse, is way too prevalent in this life. And I have not found any of the characters the least bit interesting. As for HBO. Sybil, have you watched Oz? A peep show with full nudity on each episode. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:8:15 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? > >Victor> It is very difficult to write good lyrics > > Franklin> I'll assume this is a personal confession... difficult for > who? That's an unmerited assumption. I've read scads of articles > involving songs I've found to be lyrically sophisticated, tasteful > and wonderful where the writer says, "it just all flowed right off > the pen." > Yes, and the football just flowed out of John Elway's hand. Just because something looks easy does not mean that it is. That's the whole magic and beauty of the artistic process. Being an artist involves a lot more than just sitting down with a pen and can be very challenging and draining. Jonatha Brooke has often talked about fighting her anit-muse, the part of her that tells her she is no good and cannot write. All artists deal with this, not just me. I'm not confessing anything-I'm talking about something I know about. There are plenty of songs out there with terrible lyrics or mediocre ones, as you said, on the radio. These people either just don't care, are not really very good, or a combination. Some songs do just flow off the page, yes. But more often than not, they are a product of lots of work and personal searching, struggle, turmoil, life experiences... Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:16:29 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: you losers/Now NJC Jenny wrote: I'm a huge Ellen fan. I loved it before all the gay business. It was funny. I used to relish its coming each week and especially the group down at the bookstore. After the turnover, it simply wasn't funny anymore, to me. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:12:18 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Will & Grace - njc I apologize if I offended anybody; I was just sharing my obviously controversial opinion. You're right - sitcoms in general are made up of stereotypes, which is probably why I don't generally watch them. I know I'm in the minority on that. I'm a Discovery Channel, A&E guy, myself. - -Andrew I see Will or Jack give their respective boyfriends a long, sensuous kiss on screen, the way Grace does with her love interest, is the day I may start watching it. This just may be the season that happens. Jenny - -One can hope! Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:19:43 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! Jenny posted: Even though this may be his shark-jumping moment (I would argue against that), it has two of his most powerful songs on it; "Millworker" & "Sleep Come Free Me". I don't think he has shark-jumped. My goodness, what a term. I purchased Hourglass after the purported jump and though it took a while to warm up to it, now, I find it most enchanting and engaging. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:19:55 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: My trousers (NJC) Kate wrote: >steve, word on the street is that it was those seabird pants of yours that >you insisted on showing her that caused her to cross you off her list of >eligible bachelors... :~} Damn! I'll bet you're right - she took one look at those LOTC geese embroidered around the hem and said "Oh. Very nice." I could tell she wasn't thrilled. At least I didn't show her my tattoo! And Kakki wrote: > hoping Joni would find someone as nice as Mr. Dulson Awwww, shucks! Kakki and I got together last week at the Blue Cafe in Long Beach to see Doug Macleod, their regular Thursday night guy, whom Kakki has known for years. Unfortunately Doug chose to go to Europe that week, but we had a fine time talking about all of you behind your backs. :) Kakki, as many of you know, is great company and fun to hang out with. Speaking of which, I finally managed to hook up with Paul Castle in London last month. He is another great jmdl character, and we had a blast drinking wine at the 12 Bar with him and his bandmate Will. I am now looking forward to The Rosinators first US tour. - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:24:56 EST From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - Woody, Altman, Sayles Colin wrote:- John and i must be ailing. we saw Gosford Park. really lookied forward to it as it seemd right up our street. we didn;t even finish it. boooooring. Hey Colin, I promised myself I would stop sending e-mails on Friday nights cos I'm always drunk and tend to write rubbish but just had to agree with you, that film was dross and a waste of some brilliant talent. Stephen Fry was especially bad, I thought. BTW, my eyesight is failing too when it comes to small print! Also, I'm hoping that the pullover will arrive, modelled, within the next couple of hours! Regards, Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:26:43 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Morrison (njc) Kakki wrote: > Growing up here in Morrison land, he was defintely considered a brilliant > poet. I have friends of middle age (cough) who still have framed posters of > him up on their walls. But I've noticed in recent years that a lot of > people in the larger world seem to have a somewhat snobbish disdain for him, > to the point of brushing him and the Doors off as being trite and > "manufactured." It baffles me, but then maybe thinking he was an original > and somewhat groundbreaking poet was just "provincial" taste. I think the > music was also groundbreaking but that is disputed in some circles, too. > Funny how we never hear of a Joni connection with Jim. He lived right there > in Laurel Canyon by the General Store for awhile. Maybe he was too intense > for the more mellow acoustic crowd. Yet Crosby did write that beautiful ode > to him on the first CPR album. I'm finally catching up on my mail...... I remember that house, from my visit to Kakki in 2001, when we did the "tour"! I think The Doors were anything but "manufactured" - I was listening to all their albums almost exclusively in the late 80's, and there are definitely some moments of pure brilliance. And there was certainly a lot of talent in the group, other than Morrison's song-writing. Ray Manzarek (sp?) was a superb keyboardist, and Robbie Kreiger was no slouch on guitar, either. It also surprises me that Jim and Joni's paths never crossed. Crosby certainly had a few encounters with him - and witnessed the infamous scene when Janis whacked Morrison with a bourbon bottle for saying something derogatory about her! Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:36:39 -0600 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: jumping the shark - carol lay - NJC http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/11-4-2002-29613.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:43:52 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Will & Grace - NJC I also love Will & Grace, and I don't think it makes any difference whether the actors are gay or straight, as long as they do a good job (which they do). Should they have an actress who's a rich, alcoholic shallow bitch (with a husband in prison) play Karen? Megan Mullally is doing such a terrible job, after all ;o) And I bet Deb Messing doesn't know much about interior design. Could Eric Cormack defend someone in court? The key word here is "acting"! I think we'd have some VERY boring TV (not to mention movies), if people were only allowed to play themselves! As for the comment Colin related earlier about Will not being gay enough - I agree, what rubbish! It's those kind of generalisations and stereotypes that perpetuate the myth that gay people are "different" from everyone else. Does that mean I can't knit or sew any more, and must restrict my hobbies to working with power tools exclusively?! Actually, that wouldn't be so bad..... ;o) Jenny wrote: > Funny, I never got into Seinfeld (try as I might) > because I felt nothing for the characters. I'm with you on this one. Seinfeld is probably my least favourite comedy - I just can't watch it. I just don't think Jerry Seinfeld is funny. And Jason Alexander makes my skin crawl! Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:53:11 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Will & Grace - njc exactly, isn't that what being in the closet is? littlebird3333@yahoo.com writes (about will): > "I don't wanna say I'm straight or I'm gay," bob >>Which would mean that he's gay as a straight guy would never say that.<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:52:58 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: just for fun njc While having a very rare slow period at work today I thought to myself that I would have a little fun and do a small survey (hey, if you lived here you would manufacture fun too). The bulky, always slovenly, limping, maintenance man Richard approached. "Hey Dick", I said. I call him Dick for reasons even unknown to me. "Who is Joni Mitchell?" He stopped and I could see the mind turning. Puzzled, he said "isn't she a country singer?" I said "no." He then went on. "Yea, I remember her, she was on the Porter Wagoner show in the 60's." I wasn't sure Joni ever did that program but doubted it but thought to myself that I would have to ask the list if that ever occurred. Two more co-workers happened by, both female and in their early twenties. I asked them the same question. Neither had a clue as to who Joni was. I then asked a part-time fire safety inspector ( a closet-queen if I have ever seen one) the question. He replied "isn't she a singer?" Lastly, a PT that works at the facility, but doesn't live here, was walking nonchalantly down the hall, approaching me. I thought "hmm, she looks rather offbeat, I bet she knows Joan." So I stopped her and asked "Susan, do you know who Joni Mitchell is?" She then said "doesn't she have a new album out?" I was knocked over. She said she was not a fan and instead preferred Bonnie Raitt. We were then interrupted by something. Later she returned to me and told this story. She said that she had friends in Canada and that they had doves, though not specific about the birds was she. They, the friends, would play different music and the birds would not react but when they played Joni, the birds would coo and coo and coo. She said they would remove Joni and play something else and the birds would stop. Reinsert Joan, and the cooing returned. Even the birds know. mack http://Stories.Com/authors/mackoliver ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:02:04 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) >Victor wrote: Yes, but haven't you written the same two posts >about a dozen times??? Franklin> Are you asking, implying, insulting or just assaulting? Hmmmmmm, let me see. Are we getting a little "paranoid" again Victor - is it that "stress" thing again - or are you just feeling like taking a little "pot shot" to appease whatever demons you're currently wrestling with?<<< franklin, i think victor was just trying to be funny, though admitedly a bit sarcastic...however, how many times do you think you can bring up that guy who writes songs that you are so enamoured of without expecting some kind of reaction?...however, geesh...your response to victors jab struck me as quite cruel & uncalled for...at the risk of getting involved i'd like to suggest you give it a rest...thanks... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:57:44 -0500 From: nyroman Subject: Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! I agree that James is still a fine artist and still has a great voice... he doesn't have to "stoke the star maker machinery" for me anymore, I always like whatever he does. His voice is a warm place to come home to. I really liked his recent "New Moon Shine" release, but have yet to get a listen to "October Road." And I have a huge fondness for "You Can Close Your Eyes" sung by James and Joni; man, what a moment! Best, Gary SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/22/2002 1:54:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, jrgoodspeed@yahoo.com writes: > > > Now he "jumped the shark" (hee hee), with the release > > of Flag, > > Even though this may be his shark-jumping moment (I would argue against that), it has two of his most powerful songs on it; "Millworker" & "Sleep Come Free Me". > > The list of great songs he has written is pretty long. The list of superb recordings is even longer. He has the gift of being able to make a cover his own (Handyman, You've Got A Friend). He's been recording as long as Joni, and although I don't put him on her level as a writer, a recording artist doesn't last for 5 decades, continuing to produce new work, on meager talent. > > Bob, who realizes if he was doing a James Taylor covers project he'd have an even bigger chore on his hands... > > NP: Mary-Chapin Carpenter, "Stones In The Road" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:00:26 +0000 From: Rosanella Subject: Re:Subject: UK Review -- OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Considering Joni's mature age, it is quite natural that her voice does not have a clear tone while reaching varying high octaves as it used to. Opera singers don't either, having to retire sometimes early. With regards to the UK Review, well...it's the 'UK Review'. Pretty much the usual boring criticism. The reality is, that Joni Mitchell is one woman with abundant guts to make quite a few people in the music industry be quite ashamed of themselves. Regards. Rosanella rosanella@ntlworld.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:13:43 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC - Gosford Park - not about teen make-out spots ;) > Not really too sure how it would play on VCR - unless of course you > have one of those Home Theaters - you know 43" screen or larger... fraid mine is rather smalll...only 32" .....but wide > > > As far as the critique - to each his own. Hope John's recovery is > continuing on a positive, speedy basis. Give him my best. John is still quite sick. now has asthma. not smoked for a week which is good. > > > Franklin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:15:31 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Will & Grace - njc >Sean Hayes, straight.??!! Puh-lease. > that is what i wondered too! > >Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:16:20 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Will & Grace - njc Little Bird wrote: >We may never know... In any case, I find him annoying. > > > no argument there! I don't like karen either, both of these people are so nasty and self centred. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #513 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)