From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #512 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, November 22 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 512 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? [Jenny Goodspeed ] t'log takes my breath away... [WARREN901@aol.com] Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: NJC jumping the shark ["Lori Fye" ] Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) ["Lori Fye" ] Re: NJC Our current "media" culture's tolerance levels [Murphycopy@aol.co] Will-not gay enough? NJC [Steve Dulson ] t'log takes my breath away ...AGAIN [WARREN901@aol.com] Re: NJC Rosie [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re:NJC jumping the shark [Susan Guzzi ] Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? [Franklin Shea ] Re: NJC Our current "media" culture's tolerance levels [colin ] Travelogue Bargain Alert! [Phyliss Ward ] Re: NJC Rosie ["Lori Fye" ] Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: you losers/Now NJC [colin ] Re: you losers/Now NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? ["Victor Johnson" ] RE: NJC - Woody, Altman, Sayles [Franklin Shea ] Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? ["Bill Dollinger" ] Re: NJC - Gosford Park - not about teen make-out spots ;) [Franklin Shea ] Re: Lyricists as poets??? [David Marine ] Patricia Barber [Jerry Notaro ] Re: joni as a poet [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: NJC - Gosford Park ["Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ] Joni, Will & Grace [Little Bird ] (NJC) What are you doing this Saturday? ["Lori Fye" ] Re: origin of "to a T" (njc) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: joni as a poet - njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Will & Grace - njc [Little Bird ] Re: Will & Grace - njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) [Franklin Shea Subject: Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? > Franklin> James is exaggerating a wee bit here. He's > actually written the same four (OK, maybe six) songs 150 times. The problem is that only the ORIGINAL four to six of them were worthy of recognition > The poster child for musical innovation, James is not. But, if you're saying JT wrote only 4-6 songs worthy of recognition, I have to disagree. Now he "jumped the shark" (hee hee), with the release of Flag, but prior to that wrote lots of great songs and had 2 nearly perfect albums with Mud Slide... and JT. Yes he earns his bread and butter on a few precious and not-so-precious hits - and it is a dismal experience to see him in concert and be surrounded by people who only want to hear songs off his greatest hits - but he has made his mark as a songwriter -- not pushing the boundaries or making waves, but by writing little gems that have their place in the soundtracks of many of our lives (sounds like a bad hallmark, I know, but it is true). Jenny > one of the TV magazines where they gave him the > prefunctory > rhetorical question: You've been accused of never > venturing far from > your original sound, exploring other musical avenues > of expression". > He just sort of smilingly, smuggly said something > like: "I know where > my bread and butter is, I still can knock down a mil > or two a year > touring and I have a core audience that will pay > 50-75 dollars to > hear me sing "Fire and Rain" and "How Sweet It Is" > (a Motown Cover > BTW). Hey, writing A hit song can be alot like > winning the lottery - > over and over. Particularly with a winning > personality. The core > audience even sings along to the unintentional > "parody" filler - is > that intentional, or unintentional? lol > > Bob S> Oh really ? Perhaps it would be better for JT > to have said > ''that's true of pretty much all of us". (Maybe he > did :~), but > that's not what I thought I > heard - gimme an instant replay, please !) > > Franklin> He did inadvertently speak for "pretty > much all of us". But > once again, the exaggeration applies to all of them > - 3 or 4, not 12 > originals. At least he did qualify his statement by > saying "pretty > much all of us". That is what makes the great, > inspired songwriters > so unique; such a national/international treasure: > there are so few > of them.... > > I'm talking ongoing originality, form vs. content, > as well as > music/melody meets words/thoughts here: Burt > Bacharach/Hal David - > 3/4 "filler-free. Lennon/McCartney, 4/5 > "filler-free" (note, it took > TWO of them!) EARLY Jagger/Richards; 2/3 "filler > free"; Steve Earle- > pretty much 1/2 "filler free"; John Haitt; maybe 1/3 > -1/2 > "filler-free", Bob Welsh of "Fleetwood Mac" fame - > hell of a > songwriter (AND extraordinary guitar player) at > least 1/2-2/3 > "filler-free". Steve Stills/Neil Young - I'd say 2/3 > across career; > L.A. Cowboy - arguably as close to 100% > "filler-free" as per above > definition, throughout career as anyone has ever > gotten. BTY, if you > can get 1/2 "filler-free" designation in a career, > that's an > extraordinary feat, easily capable of landing one in > the > "Songwriter's Hall of Fame". Females; Carly Simon, > near 1/2 > non-filler; Carol King, about the same as Carly. > (I'm talking over > the span of a career, and I'm limiting this to > fast-writing, > off-the-top of my head spontaneity, so kindly add to > this very > abbreviated list rather than criticize, wail or howl > about missing > persons...any/all disagreements, reassessments also > welcome. When it > comes right down to it - there are so many tens of > thousands of > accomplished musicians in America alone - yet just a > literal > "handful" of great songwriters... that is why they > are treasures. > > > Bob S>Of her 200 or so songs, I would venture to say > that there are > well over 100 complete originals that have no > redundancies or > parallels in JM's work. > Certainly, in some cases the musical structure is > similar - especially in her > earlier work. And in a lyrical context, there is a > revisiting of themes > (although usually with a fresh take). And on nearly > all of her post-70's CD's > there is a consistent texture to her music within a > given CD - (this was less > true of her earlier works) - though the texture > changed significantly from CD > to CD - think WTRF, then DED, then CMIAR, then NRH, > then TI, then TTT. > > Franklin> Agreed on above statements. She is well > into the 3/4 > career "filler-free". There were a few clinkers > here and there - but > WHAT a BODY of WORK. Don't get me wrong - > taste-defining > contributions all along, everywhere. > > As to the original thoughts in this post, Joni can > be feisty, and get > even come out swinging, get intellectually nasty and > still fill > sheds, auditoriums etc. James HAS to approach the > marketing from a > little different perspective - "sweet". And let's > face it, from the > Arbitron tour grosses and rankings - SWEET STILL > WORKS... the ol' > honey and flies type thing...I guess if a picture is > worth a thousand > words, one or two viable "hit" songs are worth > millions or dollars. > Wow - what a world, That is "if you've got > personality -charm- > personality -walk- personality, -talk- > personality..." Is anyone out > there singing along with me???? > > Franklin > NP Savoy Brown - "Raw Sienna" a truly overlooked > band, guitar god. > Chris Youlden's BEAUTIFUL voice with Kim Simmond's > elegant, > smouldering, authoritative guitar - he > single-handedly made the > original Flying V, famous (and currently worth > 80-120.000 for an > unfucked-with original) just sliding and soloing so > tastefully that > it makes me understand why the electric guitar, when > skillfully > rendered is perhaps the only instrument more > beautiful than a violin. Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:03:30 EST From: WARREN901@aol.com Subject: t'log takes my breath away... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:05:49 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! In a message dated 11/22/2002 1:54:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, jrgoodspeed@yahoo.com writes: > Now he "jumped the shark" (hee hee), with the release > of Flag, Even though this may be his shark-jumping moment (I would argue against that), it has two of his most powerful songs on it; "Millworker" & "Sleep Come Free Me". The list of great songs he has written is pretty long. The list of superb recordings is even longer. He has the gift of being able to make a cover his own (Handyman, You've Got A Friend). He's been recording as long as Joni, and although I don't put him on her level as a writer, a recording artist doesn't last for 5 decades, continuing to produce new work, on meager talent. Bob, who realizes if he was doing a James Taylor covers project he'd have an even bigger chore on his hands... NP: Mary-Chapin Carpenter, "Stones In The Road" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:16:32 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: NJC jumping the shark > go on a date with Handrea and Palmela :~) This reminds me of a Jackson Browne song that my friend Chip Ferguson used to sing at the All Ranks Club (a combination of the airman's, NCO, and Officer's clubs) at Fortuna Air Force Station, North Dakota. I was just 19 or 20 years old, and it took me awhile to figure out why all the old NCOs would CRACK UP at the lyrics ... Here's the chorus of "Rosie": But Rosie you're all right -- you wear my ring When you hold me tight -- Rosie that's my thing When you turn out the light -- I've got to hand it to me Looks like it's me and you again tonight Rosie ; ) Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:19:15 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) > Now he "jumped the shark" (hee hee), with the release of Flag Really? I loved that album. I drove my '69 VW Bug through a wicked thunderstorm in eastern Wyoming (on my move from North Dakota to Arizona) while listening to Flag and HOSL. Good memories ... Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:18:54 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! > The list of great songs he has written is pretty long. The list of superb recordings is even longer. He has the gift of being able to make a cover his own (Handyman, You've Got A Friend). He's been recording as long as Joni, and although I don't put him on her level as a writer, a recording artist doesn't last for 5 decades, continuing to produce new work, on meager talent. Case in point, his latest album...October Roads, a beautiful album with some great new tunes. They may be in the same style but its HIS style and HIS voice and in my mind that is a magical, powerful combination. Just try sitting a few feet in front of James Taylor as he sings "Sweet Baby James" with a full orchestra behind him and you'll never be the same again. Victor Beck still and the sound of wind blowing leaves outside as so few drops of snow fall you can pick out each individual little ball of white dust. - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:22:12 -0600 From: "Sybil Skelton" Subject: Re: NJC Rosie >Here's the chorus of "Rosie": > >But Rosie you're all right -- you wear my ring >When you hold me tight -- Rosie that's my thing >When you turn out the light -- I've got to hand it to me >Looks like it's me and you again tonight Rosie > >; ) > >Lori I've been a Jackson Browne fan as far back as I can remember, and I must have listened to and sang along with that song thousands of times without having a clue what it was about! I only realized in recent years what he was talking about, and boy did I feel dumb. My teenage son, on the other hand, got it immediately! Must be a "guy thing". Sybi; _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:26:13 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Our current "media" culture's tolerance levels Franklin writes: << we're all going to have the option to watch Iraq destroyed, live, before our very eyes! The ratings are going to go through the roof >> Not if Britney makes a guest appearance on Will and Grace that same night. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:29:13 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Will-not gay enough? NJC Lamadama wrote: >The 'gay thread' again? Gees. >Can we get back to boobs again please? :) Dulson? Are you there? You bet! At the insistence of another jmdler dirty old man...er... seeker after the truth, I have promised to dig out my negatives and make prints of the '74 photos that I think prove that the torso on DJRD is not Joni's. Jim - one copy's for you. :) - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:35:00 EST From: WARREN901@aol.com Subject: t'log takes my breath away ...AGAIN sorry about the previous misfire guys, i guess i was so out of breath that i just lost it ! this would be a good opportunity to say i'm so caught up in T'log i don't know whether i'm coming of going. GASP...a few thoughts as i come up for air: the packaging...do i even need to say how gorgeous the whole thing is. the sound...it fills me , flows through me, and then fills me again ! some standouts...' refuge of the roads ' a stunner to begin with and she has taken it up several notches. the harps in this rendition are superb...i love the change of lyric from ' he drank and womanized ' to ' a drunk with sage's eyes.' ( that joni...always playing around with her lyrics ! ) ' amelia ' the original made me tear up when i heard it...this update touches me so deeply i cry just thinking about it ! ' the sire of sorrow ( job's sad song )' was very cathartic for me when it was first released, having lost my lover to AIDS just a short time before...this new version is even more so. i love the male chorus she has added as the antagonists, it is so the right touch ! and ' the dawntreader ' not one of my choices for all time favorite...has just gotten a rank of " i can't believe this wasn't an all time favorite before, what was i thinking ?" well...gotta go i'm experiencing withdrawl. more later . jonily yours, warren keith p.s. ' otis and marlena ' is the BOMB !!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:35:23 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Rosie In a message dated 11/22/2002 2:22:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, sybilskelton@hotmail.com writes: > My teenage son, on the other hand, > got it immediately! Must be a "guy thing". Don't think so...Cyndi Lauper had a pretty good hit with "She-Bop"! :~) Bob NP: MCC, "You Win Again" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:38:25 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re:NJC jumping the shark - --- FMYFL@aol.com wrote: > Okay, it's Friday so I forgive you both, and besides I prefer to call what > you're referring to as: wrist aerobics, waxing my surfboard, slappin pappy, > hitchhike to heaven, or go on a date with Handrea and Palmela :~) > > unsigned CLEARLY JIMMY - you have "more" than a lot of "time" on your hands! And don't you worry about my golden eggs - MY man and I have it all under control and everything appears to be coming up ROSES! ;-D Peace, Susan Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:42:06 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? Andrew wrote>Generally, there is no difference between lyrics and poems, except that lyrics are traditionally sung and poems are either read silently or spoken. Would the words of a poem become lyrics if they are sung? I'm not sure. There was an album tribute to Shakespeare recently with songs by Rufus Wainright that changed Sonnet 39 into a song. Do lyrics become poems when they are written on a page? Again, I don't really know. "The Complete Poems and Lyrics" seems to indicate that they can. Franklin> I beg to differ, Andrew. There is a WORLD of difference between a lyricist and a poet. The term lyricist would imply someone who is addressing the specific needs of a song - generally three (rarely four) chords meant to charm 16.00 out of a 14-25 year old. Repetition, hooks, "catchy" chorus are all part of the "game". The test is can the words to the song be recited, without blush or embarrassment on the part of the writer, sans music and melody. There is a very distinctive word for one who writes poetry and can successfully put it to music. It's called prosody, and in literature it is the ONLY literary form considered higher than actual poetry. Here is an example of what I mean: Bob Dylan appeared on David Letterman a few months ago and sang a song. It was laden with repetition ad nauseum. Now it is common industry knowledge that appearing on David Letterman will generally boost the sales of whatever artist's CD by 45-80,000 copies a week for two weeks - this is a Soundscan proven fact. Now if Letterman were to ask Bob Dylan, "Bob, I know that you've made x-amount of millions from performance royalties (radio) off of this song, and that this broadcast will give a significant "bump" to your current sales. So kindly, will you recite the lyrics to this otherwise rather pedestrian, three chord song for us all so weh can better understand what makes it so valuable before you perform it?" I GUARANTEE you, flat out, that Dylan would immediately walk off that stage - he'd be WAY to embarrassed to recite those lyrics naked (without music) - thus, he qualifies a lyricist. Now, not that that's good or bad (wink) but it is simply a fact. So the true test of poet vs. lyricist is IMO, can they, without blush or embarrassment, without dropping ANY of multiple repetitious "repeater" chorus lines, etc.,(in other words, the entire lyrics to the song) stand with a straight face and recite the lyrics alone to applause and appreciation. This is musical poetry, or (once again, there is actually a term for it) prosody. The dictionary I have defines prosody as "poetical words and thoughts combined with melody,in such a manner as to SUCCESSFULLY lend further emotional significance to the poetry." That is why prosody is SO difficult. If you already have a beautiful poem - melody/music can only do one of two things to/for it: it can either detract from it, or enhance it - there is no middle ground, no other option. That is also why it is considered the ONLY literary form ABOVE poetry. A far more eloquent definition I have found is "Lyrical poetry, when viewed correctly, is the inevitable creation of the peers of all great prosody: words, thoughts, and melody. It is through poetry that thought becomes music's most elegant benefactor, as a song is born."- L.A. Cowboy. Copied from L.A. Cowboy's mp3 site at http://www.mp3.com/lacowboy There are virtually no pure prosodists working in CONTEMPORARY music today to my knowledge, with the notable exception of L.A. Cowboy. Every intellectual (University English professor type) I know (I teach, among other things), familiar with his work acknowledges this. Andrew> You'd probably have to consult a book of poetry rules for the answer, and there are many rules to the various different kinds of poetry, from iambic pentameter to odes, villanelles to limericks, haiku, sonnets and rhyming couplets. Franklin> No need for the book of poetry rules - just take any song you appreciate and recite the ENTIRE lyrical contents of the song as if it were a bona fide, inspired (all poetry is assumedly inspired - that's what makes true poets through the ages so prominent) poem. You'll instantly know whether you are dealing with a lyricist or a poet - and there is a literary WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between the two. Cordially, Franklin NP: L.A. Cowboy - "Farewell" "The crown of literature is poetry. It is its end and aim. It is the sublimest activity of the human mind. It is the achievement of beauty and delicacy. The writer of prose can only step aside when the poet passes." W. Somerset Maugham Taken from the inside cover of the first L.A. Cowboy CD - "Farewell". A timeless "prosodic" classic from front to back - 100% certified "filler-free". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:40:53 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC Our current "media" culture's tolerance levels > The ratings are going to go through the roof so will we..... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:45:45 -0600 From: "Sybil Skelton" Subject: Re: NJC Rosie >My teenage son, on the other hand, > > got it immediately! Must be a "guy thing". > >Don't think so...Cyndi Lauper had a pretty good hit with "She-Bop"! :~) > >Bob Well, I didn't know what that one was about either until someone told me. I must have led a very sheltered life. I really must get out more. Sybil _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:50:41 -0800 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Travelogue Bargain Alert! I just returned from Costco where I was shocked to see Travelogue for $23.99! They NEVER have Joni at Costco! Phyliss, kicking herself for paying $34.99 at the Wherehouse ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:54:01 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: NJC Rosie > I really must get out more. Au contrare, Sybil! ; ) Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:54:2 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? > Franklin> I beg to differ, Andrew. There is a WORLD of difference > between a lyricist and a poet. The term lyricist would imply someone > who is addressing the specific needs of a song - generally three > (rarely four) chords meant to charm 16.00 out of a 14-25 year old. > Repetition, hooks, "catchy" chorus are all part of the "game". - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:57:41 +0000 From: colin Subject: euphamisms njc i hope i spelled the title write! anyway mor terms for you know what: jerkin the gherkin whipping the dripping five finger shuffle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:57:48 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: you losers/Now NJC the last episode of ER we saw was when the hospital was quarantined. it seems ages since it was on. Six Feet Under-started off amusing now is really quite dark but still compulsive viewing. btw i th ink Niles is very cute which disturbs me as he is not my type at all! pity we never got into the West Wing. it had been on ages before we noticed it was on. they will probably repaet from beignning at some point. stockard channing is one of my fave actors. there was a grease' 25 yr reunion prgand she was not on it. wonder why? oh and laso noticed a new Ellen sho called the Ellen Show. did that bomb? Lori Fye wrote: >>I enjoy w&g but my fave is Frasier. Very well written and so well >>done. Very gay too. the brothers are like a gay couple of a certain >>prententious class! >> >> > >Oh absolutely, Colin. Every once in awhile when I catch the show, I >find myself saying aloud, "Niles, will you just come out already??!!" > >Frasier, too. > >Lori > >~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:08:29 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: you losers/Now NJC > oh and laso noticed a new Ellen sho called the Ellen Show. > did that bomb? Yes, and with good reason. It was lame. Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:16:33 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? > Franklin> I beg to differ, Andrew. There is a WORLD of difference > between a lyricist and a poet. The term lyricist would imply someone > who is addressing the specific needs of a song - generally three > (rarely four) chords meant to charm 16.00 out of a 14-25 year old. > Repetition, hooks, "catchy" chorus are all part of the "game". Sorry but you are completely wrong. Lyric writing is an art within itself and the type of song you are speaking of is a tiny fraction of what exists in the world as lyrics- it certainly doesn't fly as a definition of what it means to be a lyricist and comes off as somewhat pretentious. It is very difficult to write good lyrics and the fact that they are put to music does not make them less worthy than poetry. It is just different, period. There are brilliant lyricists just as there are brilliant poets...Neil Peart, Robert Hunter(lyricist for the Grateful Dead), Joni Mitchell, Tom Waits, Bernie Taupin, the list goes on... Also, just because a song is simple and has simple lyrics does not mean it did not take great skill to write. In fact, it is very difficult to create something that is very simple and yet comes across as brilliant. Neil Young and James Taylor in particular have mastered the art of writing simple songs that are incredibly deep and powerful. I wouldn't knock James Taylor so much. Many of his songs may seem simplistic on the surface but they are more complex than they seem. Just as there are good and bad poets there are good and bad lyricists. And IMO, lyricists would like to be known as lyricists and not something else, as if lyric writing is somehow a lower art than poetry. Victor NP: Joni Mitchell "Nothing Can Be Done" - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:24:50 -0800 From: "jeff t." Subject: njc: someone mention dylan? Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess. They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy, She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me. I can't help it if I'm lucky. People see me all the time and they just can't remember how to act Their minds are filled with big ideas, images and distorted facts. Even you, yesterday you had to ask me where it was at, I couldn't believe after all these years, you didn't know me better than that Sweet lady. Idiot wind, blowing every time you move your mouth, Blowing down the backroads headin' south. Idiot wind, blowing every time you move your teeth, You're an idiot, babe. It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe. I ran into the fortune-teller, who said beware of lightning that might strike I haven't known peace and quiet for so long I can't remember what it's like. There's a lone soldier on the cross, smoke pourin' out of a boxcar door, You didn't know it, you didn't think it could be done, in the final end he won the wars After losin' every battle. I woke up on the roadside, daydreamin' 'bout the way things sometimes are Visions of your chestnut mare shoot through my head and are makin' me see stars. You hurt the ones that I love best and cover up the truth with lies. One day you'll be in the ditch, flies buzzin' around your eyes, Blood on your saddle. Idiot wind, blowing through the flowers on your tomb, Blowing through the curtains in your room. Idiot wind, blowing every time you move your teeth, You're an idiot, babe. It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe. It was gravity which pulled us down and destiny which broke us apart You tamed the lion in my cage but it just wasn't enough to change my heart. Now everything's a little upside down, as a matter of fact the wheels have stopped, What's good is bad, what's bad is good, you'll find out when you reach the top You're on the bottom. I noticed at the ceremony, your corrupt ways had finally made you blind I can't remember your face anymore, your mouth has changed, your eyes don't look into mine. The priest wore black on the seventh day and sat stone-faced while the building burned. I waited for you on the running boards, near the cypress trees, while the springtime turned Slowly into autumn. Idiot wind, blowing like a circle around my skull, From the Grand Coulee Dam to the Capitol. Idiot wind, blowing every time you move your teeth, You're an idiot, babe. It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe. I can't feel you anymore, I can't even touch the books you've read Every time I crawl past your door, I been wishin' I was somebody else instead. Down the highway, down the tracks, down the road to ecstasy, I followed you beneath the stars, hounded by your memory And all your ragin' glory. I been double-crossed now for the very last time and now I'm finally free, I kissed goodbye the howling beast on the borderline which separated you from me. You'll never know the hurt I suffered nor the pain I rise above, And I'll never know the same about you, your holiness or your kind of love, And it makes me feel so sorry. Idiot wind, blowing through the buttons of our coats, Blowing through the letters that we wrote. Idiot wind, blowing through the dust upon our shelves, We're idiots, babe. It's a wonder we can even feed ourselves. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:29:46 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: RE: NJC - Woody, Altman, Sayles Jerry stated>Love this movie thread. Like most non Joni discussions on this list, it is on a higher plane than on those lists which were designed for it. Nashville is always on my top ten list. It has lost none of its original power and I still think it is a truly American film masterpiece. I thought Gosford Park was his best movie since Nashville. Nashville trivia: Bette Midler was the original choice for the role of Albuquerque, played by Barbara Harris. Jerry Hey Jerry, thanks for droppin' in and saying "hi". I'm diggin' that thread myself - that Robert, ahemmmm, I mean Joseph, LOL is one sharp pencil! Regards, Franklin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:34:10 -0500 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? I think what Joni has demonstrated is that there are elements connecting all the arts, and she has boldly resisted the relentless attempts to be pigeon holed. And Dylan once said he hated the word poet, and would rather be called a trapeze artist. When someone who read my lyrics told me that words were my forte, I wrote this one: Forte "Words are your forte" Well, that's just a limit To keep you from painting Or dancing within it. A hole for the pigeon, A box for the heart. I see the illusion They are from the start. I saw me a man's man With shoulder-length hair. He knitted an afghan. He built me a chair. The sting of the critics. The spring of the trap. "We like all the old stuff, So keep doing that." Well, I'm over forte So maybe I'll write And maybe I'll crochet Or build you a kite. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor Johnson" To: ; "Franklin Shea" Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 6:16 PM Subject: Re: NJC Lyricists as poets??? > Franklin> I beg to differ, Andrew. There is a WORLD of difference > between a lyricist and a poet. The term lyricist would imply someone > who is addressing the specific needs of a song - generally three > (rarely four) chords meant to charm 16.00 out of a 14-25 year old. > Repetition, hooks, "catchy" chorus are all part of the "game". Sorry but you are completely wrong. Lyric writing is an art within itself and the type of song you are speaking of is a tiny fraction of what exists in the world as lyrics- it certainly doesn't fly as a definition of what it means to be a lyricist and comes off as somewhat pretentious. It is very difficult to write good lyrics and the fact that they are put to music does not make them less worthy than poetry. It is just different, period. There are brilliant lyricists just as there are brilliant poets...Neil Peart, Robert Hunter(lyricist for the Grateful Dead), Joni Mitchell, Tom Waits, Bernie Taupin, the list goes on... Also, just because a song is simple and has simple lyrics does not mean it did not take great skill to write. In fact, it is very difficult to create something that is very simple and yet comes across as brilliant. Neil Young and James Taylor in particular have mastered the art of writing simple songs that are incredibly deep and powerful. I wouldn't knock James Taylor so much. Many of his songs may seem simplistic on the surface but they are more complex than they seem. Just as there are good and bad poets there are good and bad lyricists. And IMO, lyricists would like to be known as lyricists and not something else, as if lyric writing is somehow a lower art than poetry. Victor NP: Joni Mitchell "Nothing Can Be Done" - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:34:52 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: t'log reviews you know i really think so many of these reviewers i have read lately are just not getting it... i am not one of those 'joni can do no wrong' fans, nor do i listen to a lot of classical music or jazz for that matter...my musical tastes these days tend towards simple arrangements of great songs from singer songwriters...so i wouldn't expect me to like this record as much as i do... i have not yet listened to the whole thing & so far have only listened once but it took no warming up to for me...i really love it! it seems to me these are the same reviewers who, as usual, are looking backwards for joni to do what she used to do instead of being open to the fact that she might just be, once again, breaking new ground....they want joni to be singing, arranging, playing, etc songs the way she used to...when she left folk for jazz many resisted & now that she has left that kind of jazz for more more orchestral arrangements, they still resist... some things have not changed since when dylan picked up the electric guitar....its so strange to hear people complaining about her voice as if they still want her to be 25 years old...i love the texture & sound of her voice- it is that of a mature woman & has so much warmth & wise beauty to it...i don't even hear limitations...so what if she doesn't have several octaves to work with...since when did that have anything to do with conveying real emotion (reference whitney & all for that) joni has always considered herself to be a composer...reading her reviews throughout the years, she has often described her work in compositional & painterly terms....it is so natural she would do this... i really think, once again, she is creating a whole new medium with this release- her voice, the compostion, the paintings... btw, i never did purchase both sides now because i'm not all that interested in hearing her do other people's works...i'm in it for her songwriting & composition i can't believe some of the adjectives that some are using to describe the music & her voice on this record...did they listen to the same one i did? some of these reviewers seem to have had their musical tastes severely hampered by listening to too much below average dreck.... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:38:50 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: NJC - Gosford Park - not about teen make-out spots ;) >Colin wrote>John and i must be ailing. we saw Gosford Park. really >lookied forward to it as it seemd right up our street. we didn;t >even finish it. boooooring. Franklin> And here I thought only JOHN was sick...lol I myself, put off seeing it for months. It didn't strike me as a TOPIC of real interest, even though the reviews simply glowwwwed about it. Finally went to see it in a $1.50 theater (I noticed that it had played there for several months - generally a sign that a movie is attracting so much "word of mouth" that it has "legs" - a good sign of a potentially worthwhile to excellent movie. Went with a woman friend who just HAD to get out, so thought it would be a good gamble. For me, it paid off. I'd love to see it again on the big screen - there were so many verbal, psychological nuances, I know I missed certain points. Not really too sure how it would play on VCR - unless of course you have one of those Home Theaters - you know 43" screen or larger... As far as the critique - to each his own. Hope John's recovery is continuing on a positive, speedy basis. Give him my best. Franklin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:37:52 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Re: Lyricists as poets??? Hey List -- I am enjoying this thread, and hope it keeps unraveling. It IS both valid and interesting (IMO) to discuss, as Franklin and others have done, the way in which words and music can combine to create something of particular beauty and power, and obviously Joni is a master of this. As Kate has pointed out, Joni clearly considers herself a poet. And of course she should. Again, to clarify, ALL lyrics are poetry. Poetry has been created for thousands of years. It existed long before the written word. Much of what we consider the best of Elizabethan poetry was chanted or sung. So was Homer's poetry, etc. Maybe it would be better to reformulate the question: do Joni's poems need to be matched to her melodies in order to retain their beauty and power? To me, the answer with many of them is a resounding NO. "The Complete Poems and Lyrics" is the best evidence. David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:38:39 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Patricia Barber 5 Star review from Stereophile: Patricia Barber is more than a poet, more than a singer, more than a songwriter. None of these categories alone can do justice to the fullness of her artistic presentation. Her strikingly thoughtful and clever lyrics seem naked on the page. She twists each syllable rhythmically, attaching subtle shades of melodic variation in a voice that often whispers but never shouts. Her audacious approach to melody and song structure should place her in rare company as a jazz singer, yet this work begs to be seen more in the context of crossover masters from Tony Bennett to Joni Mitchell. And that's just the beginning of the review! Jerry np: Eva Cassidy - Imagine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:44:50 -0500 From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: joni as a poet My little desk dictionary defines "poet" as "a creative artist of great sensitivity." Fits Joni to a "T" methinks.(But now I'm wondering how the expression "to a T" originated. Anyone? Class? Jimmy? Jenny? Bueller? :-) Bonus definition: poetaster - n. : an inferior poet. (and looky...there's a picture of eminem next to it) ;-) - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:50:38 -0500 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: NJC - Gosford Park I yield in no one to my adoration of Altman and far and away the most VCRs and DVDs that I have are his. I am probably one of the few people alive who ever saw at the movie theater Come Back to the Five and Dime Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean, and I say that fully aware that the others who also saw it on the big screen are all JMDLers. I thought Gosford Park was boring at times and not one of his best. I was really disappointed. Glad Colin had the guts to admit this first! And the soundtrack to Pret' a Porter was much better too! :-) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:52:07 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Joni, Will & Grace I agree, Kate, that the reviewers have missed the point. And I haven't even heard the record yet! I've heard some songs via the Website and have been intrigued to the point of total excitement. I am also not a "Joni can do no wrong" fan and actually dislike some of her songs, but Travelogue is so vastly different than anything anyone has done, fans just have to be enamoured. I frankly think that people are a little afraid of it. If I was a reviewer not familiar with Joni's pursuit of new territory as the undercurrent of her musical development, I'd be totally intimidated by Travelogue. "Hmmm, which box do I put it in? The Britney box? No. The McCartney box? No. Classical? No. Jazz? Not really..." I see the potential for insanity. As for Will & Grace, I may as well weigh in. I hate it. I'm gay and find it sort of offensive to watch two straight men act like gay men. Something about it rubs me the wrong way. It's the new version of "blackface" in show business, getting heteros to play homos as stereotypically as possible while homos are eternally kept in the broadway chorus lines. Show me a show about REAL gay lives and maybe I'll be interested. And, no, don't get me started on Queer As Folk... - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:52:42 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: (NJC) What are you doing this Saturday? I'm running (and walking) 17 miles! Yes, I'm still training for the National AIDS Marathon in February, and I'm still raising money! If you'd like to donate, you can do so by check or credit card or check. Donations are tax deductible. Online: http://www.aidsmarathon.com/participant.jsp?runner=DCNO-3144 By mail or fax: http://lrfye.lunarpages.com/donor form.pdf (download and print) Or if you're just curious about the state of my webpage these days, visit http://lrfye.lunarpages.com Thanks to all of you who have contributed so far -- I've almost reached my fundraising goal (but more $$ for DC's Whitman-Walker Clinic is always a good thing)! : ) Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:53:54 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: joni as a poet In a message dated 11/22/02 3:45:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, JRMCo1@aol.com writes: > My little desk dictionary defines "poet" as "a creative artist of great > sensitivity." Fits Joni to a "T" methinks.(But now I'm wondering how the > expression "to a T" originated. Anyone? Class? Jimmy? Jenny? Bueller? :-) > > I think "to a T" comes from a draftsman's T-Square (an exact instrument). So do I get another bottle of Veuve Clicquot, Julius :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:55:18 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Will & Grace - njc Little Bird wrote: I'm gay and find it sort of offensive to watch two straight men act like gay men. Sean Hayes, straight.??!! Puh-lease. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:55:29 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: origin of "to a T" (njc) > My little desk dictionary defines "poet" as "a creative artist of great sensitivity." Fits Joni to a "T" methinks.(But now I'm wondering how the expression "to a T" originated. Anyone? Class? Jimmy? Jenny? Bueller? :-) TO A T  "We use this expression very commonly in the sense of minute exactness, perfection; as, the coat fits to a T; the meat was done to a T. It is easy to dismiss the origin of the expression as, I am sorry to say, some of our leading dictionaries do, by attributing it to the draftsmans T-square, which is supposed to be an exact instrument, but the evidence indicates that the expression was in common English use before the T-square got its name. To a T dates back to the seventeenth century in literary use and was undoubtedly common in everyday speech long before any writer dared to or thought to use it in print. But it is likely that the name of the instrument, T-square, would have been in print shortly after its invention, yet the first mention is in the eighteenth century. The sense of the expression corresponds, however, with the older one, to a tittle, which appeared almost a century earlier, and meant to a dot, as in jot or tittle. Beaumont used it in 1607, and it is probably that colloquial use long preceded his employment of the phrase" From "2107 Curious Word Origins, Sayings & Expressions from White Elephants to a Song and Dance" by Charles Earle Funk (Galahad Books, New York, 1993). - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:59:30 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni as a poet - njc Julius asks: << (But now I'm wondering how the expression "to a T" originated. Anyone? >> I think it had something to do with Bette Midler. Seriously though, I bet it has something to do with a T-square. In fact, according to a recent Daily Buzzword from Merriam-Webster, "The word "normal" comes from "norma," a Latin word for a tool used" in carpentry! I'll leave you with this latest sign that I must get a life. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:02:47 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Will & Grace - njc We may never know... In any case, I find him annoying. From Gay.com When it comes to his sexuality, Hayes doesn't really want the public to know. "I don't wanna say I'm straight or I'm gay," he told Hollywood Online in 1998, "I want to keep everything open so as no one can form any opinions about me, because this world that we live in isn't all that forgiving." Jerry Notaro wrote:Little Bird wrote: I'm gay and find it sort of offensive to watch two straight men act like gay men. Sean Hayes, straight.??!! Puh-lease. Jerry Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:03:30 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Will & Grace - njc Jerry writes: << Sean Hayes, straight.??!! Puh-lease. >> If so, he deserves the Nobel prize for acting! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:07:17 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) > >Victor wrote: Yes, but haven't you written the same two posts >about a dozen times??? Franklin> Are you asking, implying, insulting or just assaulting? Hmmmmmm, let me see. We've covered Conspiracies (for those who cared/dared to participate/read); Three "filler-free" CDs in a row, for those who cared to participate/read) The LOOMING war (for those who cared to participate/read), Love and it's adversaries: hatred, fear, indifference (for those who cared to participate/read); Various independent movie auteurs (for those who cared to participate/read). I could go on. Need I? I generally have joined into a particular discussion - as opposed to starting one. Sometimes it seems my comments do inadvertently take on their own life... seemingly stimulating at least some posters on this site to further, presumably enjoyable commentary and shared insight into other topics. Wow, what do you know? An organic, living thread site in action!! So, THAT'S the way it works??? Neat! But back to your snide remark: specifically which "same two posts" (you've already misrepresented your premise quite handily -see above for enlightenment) are you referring to? Are we getting a little "paranoid" again Victor - is it that "stress" thing again - or are you just feeling like taking a little "pot shot" to appease whatever demons you're currently wrestling with? I'm serious - which? Do me a favor - if that's within your capacity - leave me be. Your scarcasm is self-belittling and I don't care to read/participate in the personal car crashes. Perhaps you'd "feel" better just ignoring my comments - you know; change the channel? >Franklin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:06:15 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni as a poet - njc In a message dated 11/22/2002 3:59:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, Murphycopy writes: > I'll leave you with this latest sign that I must get a life. Yes, you have officially jumped the shark with this post! :~) Bob NP: Peter Case, "Echo Wars" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:06:51 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Will & Grace - njc In a message dated 11/22/2002 4:02:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, littlebird3333@yahoo.com writes: > "I don't wanna say I'm straight or I'm gay," Which would mean that he's gay as a straight guy would never say that. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #512 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)