From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #511 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, November 22 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 511 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in History: November 22 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Travelogue ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: norah jones njc ["mike pritchard" ] Re: slut crone osama NJC ["mike pritchard" ] Re: Fwd: you losers/Now with TLOG content [vince ] Debussy [David Marine ] NJC Re: Old hippies, T'log and latest... [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] confetti [Dave Cuneo ] Re: My Joni Travelogue [Jerry Notaro ] Ouch review from the Guardian [Deb Messling ] Another ouch review, Straits Times [Deb Messling ] Re: Joni on Will and Grace ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Another ouch review, Straits Times ["Bill Dollinger" ] Latest shocking news from New Orleans!! NJC ["Maggie McNally" ] small NJC [colin ] Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content [colin ] Re: you losers/Now NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content (njc) ["Lori Fye" ] Re: you losers/Now NJC ["Bill Dollinger" ] Re: you losers/Now NJC [Jerry Notaro ] RE: you losers/Now NJC [LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk] Re: you losers/Now NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] RE: you losers/Now NJC [LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk] Re: you losers/Now NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Jumping The Shark NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] 1st French point of view about Tlog ["laurent Fonquerne" ] Re: norah jones njc [Susan Guzzi ] Re: you losers/Now NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: 1st French point of view about Tlog [Murphycopy@aol.com] RE: Jumping The Shark NJC [LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk] RE: you losers/Now NJC [Jenny Goodspeed ] (NJC) Jumping the Shark [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Jumping The Shark NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: you losers/Now NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Jumping The Shark NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC ["Maggie McNally" ] Re:NJC jumping the shark [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? [Franklin Shea ] Re: Re:NJC jumping the shark [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content ["Reuben Bell" Subject: Travelogue well....wow.... i went to borders today & got my copy ($29.99) & it was the last one.... i have not yet had the chance to listen to all of it so i can't comment on my favorites but i love the way the songs move from one to the next like a long composition....it really is a entire composition, each song a different movement or variation....its not just an album of songs....& i love her voice....it is like like rich silk velvet, or a deep golden & red sunset in autumn....i love the woodwinds especially....& the quality of her voice has much of the same quality as (i think it is) wayne shorter's soprano sax...i love the artwork on the enhanced cd, especially the long painting of birch trees & a meadow swirling with gold in the middle....i signed up for her email wondering what that will bring....i think i need to listen to this cd the way jimmy did....with a glass of fine wine in a hot tub under the evening stars....perhaps tomorrow night.... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:13:22 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: norah jones njc I saw Norah J in concert a couple of weeks ago and I would agree that she is beautiful and has a wonderful voice. I love the CD too but was disappointed with the show in general. The band were mostly competent although the drummer was plodding and unhelpful. The best moment was Norah alone doing a Horace Silver number. The songs, almost all of the ones from the CD, were played almost exactly like the recorded version with little or no development or variation, i.e. 3 or 4 minutes each song. It sounded exactly like the cd but with the band present. This was the major disappointment for me. In contrast, the same week I saw the Mingus Big Band and they were amazing. mike in bcn np prefab sprout ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:25:43 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: slut crone osama NJC >> And what's up with the slut riding Osama?<< I haven't seen the cover or the artwork and so cannot comment on the 'crone' or the 'slut'. People have justified their use of 'slut' 'whore' 'bimbo' etc by explicit references to the ways people like cristine (my spellcheck just offered 'cretin' for my mistaken spelling of her name; does it know something I don't?) aguilera etc sell their records by 'selling' their body/sexuality. That is to say, justified on the basis of how the videos look. My question now is: what is the basis for using 'slut' in the above reference to Osama? mike in bcn np prefab sprout - life of surprises ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:12:26 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Fwd: you losers/Now with TLOG content Ken, I agree with your opinion of Will and Grace and my wording was harsh, atrocious and I apologize, just all the posts about how wonderful Will and Grace were, posted earlier in the day were on my mind and I phrased things badly and I feel badly about that, Sorry, very sorry. Vince > > In a message dated 11/21/2002 9:47:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, > revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > > > Come on all you fags out there, > > > > you all missed Will saying "they paved paradise and put up a parking > > lot" > Ken responded > > So, do I have to turn in my membership card? I just don't like Will and > Grace. Neither of the title characters strike me as being very warm or > funny, and the funny guy seems to idolize Cher, and not Joni. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 03:57:45 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Debussy Hey Ken -- At Joni's BSN concert in LA, Debussy's "Nuages" preceeded her first song. David on 11/21/02 9:00 PM, KJHSF@aol.com at KJHSF@aol.com wrote: Dawntreader sounds more and more like Debussy (La Mer). Is Joni a Debussy fan? And Slouching is pure Stravinsky, and I know she digs him! KEN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:07:22 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Old hippies, T'log and latest... In a message dated 11/22/2002 1:53:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, christi@dsr.kvl.dk writes: > I've also talked to an Swedish singer/songwriter, Theresa > Anderson, > who will pass some songs on to me. And I'm sure you'll do WONDERFUL things with them, Christina! As a covers trivia note, Theresa has also done a cover of "Carey". Thanks for the update - keep 'em coming, and keep Paz out of trouble, if that is even possible! ;~) Bob NP: Burning Spear, "Man In The Hills" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:19:23 -0500 From: Dave Cuneo Subject: confetti Ciao joniphiles, Joni says: " Calling the music industry a "corrupt cesspool", the Canadian rages that: "I'm quitting because the business made itself so repugnant to me. Record companies are not looking for talent. They're looking for a look and a willingness to cooperate." Joni, they have been doing that for 50+ years. Don't you remember "... they seem so much confetti on my tv set"? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:16:49 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: My Joni Travelogue Andrew, Your post about your journey to Joni was one of the finest I've read on Joni in a long while. I especially enjoyed your observations about how we most found her, and that you were drawn to her despite that :-) Glad to have you aboard, Mate. Jerry np: Rosemary Clooney - Have I Stayed Too Long at the Fair ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:47:09 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Ouch review from the Guardian Read at http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/reviews/story/0,11712,844488,00.html Full text below: Betty Clarke Friday November 22, 2002 The Guardian If the health warning isn't enough to put you off cigarettes, the nicotine-ravaged vocals of the once angelic, now gasping Joni Mitchell should. Mitchell's voice is a husky shadow of its former feather-light glory, mirroring how her joyful, playful attitude has dwindled to bitter dissatisfaction. Having announced that this is her final album, Mitchell has reappraised her work with a huge orchestral makeover. She has already explored such classical territory on 2000's Both Sides Now, and here she slides easily among the brass and crashing cymbals of the 70-piece orchestra. Songs from her jazz-fusion era adapt well: the venomous For the Roses is now more scathing and the brooding drama of Just Like This Train has become an attack. Sex Kills, from 1994's Turbulent Indigo, proves her skills as social commentator remain sharp amid the screeching strings. But the blustering instrumentation kills her fragile poetry and the earth-bound vocals negate any magic, rendering this double album a leaden memorial to a shining talent. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/02 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:49:51 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Another ouch review, Straits Times hey, don't shoot the messenger. http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/life/story/0,4386,156242,00.html Full text: A long and tiring journey Frustrated with the music industry, Joni Mitchell says she's retiring. But her fans deserve far better than Travelogue By Chris Ho LAST week, veteran singer-songwriter Joni Mitchell announced that her new album, Travelogue, would be her last because she feels disillusioned by the music business today. While none can deny that MTV has created an imaging-beast in the marketing of popular music, Mitchell's calling the business as a 'cesspool' sounds like over-reaction. TRAVELLIN' WOMAN: On Travelogue, Joni Mitchell sounds like she has bad jet lag. She hit out at industry executives for 'looking for a look and a willingness to cooperate'. The music business, being what it is today, has indeed relegated many former major-label artistes to indie status: Rickie Lee Jones, John Prine and Warren Zevon, for instance, have long resigned themselves to that fact. 'I've never had a willingness to cooperate,' she said. In that case, she should be glad she is still signed to a major label, especially after Both Sides Now, her last album of standards (and two originals) performed with the London Symphony Orchestra, that was a futile affirmation of her artistic maturity. There was, however, one standout track on it - her update of her own A Case Of You which prompted one to ask why she had not instead recorded an entire album of her own compositions with the LSO. Well, that warranted notion is now the new two-CD, 22-song package named Travelogue. But sad to say, it sounds almost as tedious and pointless as Both Sides Now's inept setting. It certainly will not win her new fans, either. Mitchell is, first and foremost, a distinguished singer-songwriter with a brilliant flair for rhythmic intricacies. Her greatest strength as a song-stylist lies in her idiosyncratic and self-styled folk-rock-jazz leanings. In the past, her music was remarkable in the way she expanded on the folk premise of lyrical rock 'n' roll to embrace jazz and World-beat influences, not to mention her talent for writing in an emotive and poignant language of romantic love. On Travelogue, she sounds like she is singing Vince Mendoza instead - Mendoza being the arranger and conductor of the LSO behind her. Taken out of her innate freewheeling context to go classical (it might work as a point of digression, or as novelty in doses), Mitchell's songs are apt to suffer in an ill-fitting skin. The sweeping dramatics of the 70-piece orchestra tend to overwhelm her free-folk/rock-fusion instincts, turning many of her fine compositions into meandering tales of obtuse anachronism. One example of this is Judgement Of The Moon & Stars (Ludwig's Tune). The tribute to Beethoven must have seemedlike an ideal choice for a classical treatment. The reason why the song worked so well first time around on For The Roses has all to do with Mitchell's free-spirited audacity as a (rock) outsider to re-write classical in her own terms. The song's Beat-informed lyrical-style with its strong protest message and the awkward classical arrangement (in the original) gave it precisely the kind of maverick spirit to work as a personal tribute. In contrast, the new version on Travelogue is glib and flat. The tracks that work on Travelogue are the ones that offer the least orchestral fuss but more rhythmic/jazz inflexions to allow the singer to shine with a husky, worldly candour: Trouble Child, Be Cool, Sex Kills, most of disc two and the album's opener Otis & Marlena which highlights her prophetic vision made 25 years ago that 'Muslims hold up Washington'. It is not easy to sit through most of disc one to get to the good stuff, unless one is a diehard fan. Most pop fans get hungry for nostalgia, especially when an artiste has had a long and illustrious career. Travelogue will no doubt attract fans as a stately new revisit of the 59-year-old singer's past. Ridiculous to say, it also sounds like some infliction of the artiste's disgust of the industry upon her fans, a dread weighed out by more than two hours of near-tedium. It would make a dismal swan song for an extraordinary artiste who should not forget that her fans deserve more of her - be it on a major or an indie label. Hopefully, she will hold her head up high to face the music and dance in a scene which, to borrow a Tom Wolfe title, may well be a bonfire of the vanities. But that is no reason to throw in the towel. As Mitchell herself once wrote in Shades Of Scarlet Conquering: 'Out of the fire and still smouldering a woman must have everything.' Travelogue will be in stores on Nov 28. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/02 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:20:01 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Joni on Will and Grace Congratulations, Mary Grace. You have taught well. You have passed the torch, as every caring parent should. Lama - --- MGVal@aol.com wrote: > Before I had a chance to respond, both my kids > looked up and yelled: "Joni > Mitchell. Mom!" > > And here I thought that the only thing they paid > attention to was the sound > of my wallet opening on allowance day........... > > MG > (I don't think there's a category for the lurking > level to which I've > sunk......) Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:54:56 -0500 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: Re: Another ouch review, Straits Times What a ho! This one was mean just for the sake of being mean. it was so over the top that I feel sorry for the guy. Bill >A long and tiring journey >Frustrated with the music industry, Joni Mitchell says she's retiring. But >her fans deserve far better than Travelogue >By Chris Ho ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:53:00 EST From: Kardinel@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #509 My boyfriend is constantly telling me I repeat myself. I hate it when he says it. In fact, one day I send him home fast for saying it. I don't know why but it enrages me when he says it. I told him it was because I was 50. I laughed when I read this on the mail because it's a big issue with us. I better not say anymore because I will be repeating myself!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:59:49 -0500 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content Joni is a Debussy fan and I believe she has mentioned him in reference to the early work. My membership card is turned in as well. I can't take W&G, I find the characters and their self interest annoying. Selfishness worked for me on Seinfeld because they never tried to sweeten it up, there were no "very special Seinfeld" episodes. Bill - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:00 AM Subject: Fwd: you losers/Now with TLOG content Return-path: From: KJHSF@aol.com Full-name: KJHSF Message-ID: <4b.26c6a8b3.2b0f13c9@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:59:53 EST Subject: Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content To: revrvl@chartermi.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain In a message dated 11/21/2002 9:47:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > Come on all you fags out there, > > you all missed Will saying "they paved paradise and put up a parking > lot" So, do I have to turn in my membership card? I just don't like Will and Grace. Neither of the title characters strike me as being very warm or funny, and the funny guy seems to idolize Cher, and not Joni. Besides, I'm usually shopping for gerbils on Thursday night cuz the weekend's coming up... On a more serious note, has anyone noticed that the vocal on the TLOG version of The Last Time I Saw Richard is mixed differently than the other tunes. Joni's voice is much hotter in the mix on that one track for some reason. The vocals sound as if they are out in front of the orchestra, which works really well. Dawntreader sounds more and more like Debussy (La Mer). Is Joni a Debussy fan? And Slouching is pure Stravinsky, and I know she digs him! KEN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:08:47 -0600 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: Regarding Artwork from Joni Management - ----- Original Message ----- From: Darrell Gilmour To: Happy The Man Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:48 PM Subject: Re: Miss Mitchell Artwork Dear Craig; Ms. Mitchell does not sell any of her artwork. I'll keep you name on file should this policy change you will be contacted. Regards, Darrell Gilmour ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:22:05 -0500 From: "Jerry Notaro" Subject: RE: NJC - Woody, Altman, Sayles Love this movie thread. Like most non Joni discussions on this list, it is on a higher plane than on those lists which were designed for it. Nashville is always on my top ten list. It has lost none of its original power and I still think it is a truly American film masterpiece. I thought Gosford Park was his best movie since Nashville. Nashville trivia: Bette Midler was the original choice for the role of Albuquerque, played by Barbara Harris. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:28:33 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - Woody, Altman, Sayles/Punch Drunk Love > Nashville trivia: Bette Midler was the > original choice for the role of Albuquerque, played by > Barbara Harris. Murphy was just getting ready to guess Bette Midler! ;~) Speaking of movies, I saw "Punch Drunk Love" last night (the latest from Paul Thomas Anderson) and really thought it was great, although it's the kind of flick you wanna talk about afterwards, and as I went by myself I was just wondering if anybody here had seen it & had any thoughts on it. Bob NP: Gregg Cagno, "Thank You Tune" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:35:24 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content Does this mean I *get* a membership card since I love W&G? ;) I find the characters and their self interest annoying. Selfishness worked for > me on Seinfeld because they never > tried to sweeten it up, there were > no "very special Seinfeld" episodes. I at first found the characters' self-interest annoying , but I watched because the writing was so stellar. Now I'm rooting for the characters as well (good thing because this season the writing has taken a bit of a backseat to some "very special moments".) Funny, I never got into Seinfeld (try as I might) because I felt nothing for the characters. Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:41:15 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC - Woody, Altman, Sayles John and i must be ailing. we saw Gosford Park. really lookied forward to it as it seemd right up our street. we didn;t even finish it. boooooring. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:41:42 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: Latest shocking news from New Orleans!! NJC Alex and I have our own Mondegreen! LOL!! [sorry for the delay, but I'm slogging through >200 emails that I have accumulated in the last several days. Love reading all the reactions to Travelogue.] > -----Original Message----- > From: Christoffer Gudi Sommer-Gleerup [mailto:christi@dsr.kvl.dk] > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 4:49 AM > To: Maggie McNally > Cc: JMDL (E-mail) > Subject: Re: Latest shocking news from New Orleans!! NJC > > > Citat Maggie McNally : > > > Actually, she referred to us as "old peoples" - Alex and I > have come to > > use that phrase on a regular basis. Mostly as in, "well, of > course we're > > tired, we're old peoples." We especially loved the peoples > as plural > > part. > > No, it DID say "old hippies", Susan. Although, I shouldn't > ruin the fun for you > guys... ;-P ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:49:09 +0000 From: colin Subject: joni cncert on W&G will and grace also went to a joni cncert in the show. or rather I tink they missed it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:52:23 +0000 From: colin Subject: small NJC has anyone noticed how small letters are becoming? We were in Blockbusters today and I was interested in a movie so i turned it over to rreadwhat it was about-and couldn't. tiny white letters on pale background. guess the designer didn't look at the finished article! they do this in films quite a bit-use ibadlyt contrasting titles so one cannot read them. Mind you even when they can be read, they go by so quickly one feels it was pointless bothering wit hthe credits. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:56:58 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content >Funny, I never got into Seinfeld (try as I might) >because I felt nothing for the characters. > me too. couldn't stomach Seinfeld and afiled to see why it was funny. I enjoy w&g but my fave is Frasier. Very well written and so well done. Very gay too. the brothers are like a gay couple of a certain prententious class! > >Jenny >Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:38:58 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: you losers/Now NJC > I enjoy w&g but my fave is Frasier. Very well written and so well > done. Very gay too. the brothers are like a gay couple of a certain > prententious class! Oh absolutely, Colin. Every once in awhile when I catch the show, I find myself saying aloud, "Niles, will you just come out already??!!" Frasier, too. Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:57:11 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content (njc) Jenny asked: > Does this mean I *get* a membership card since I love > W&G? ;) Of course, Jenny! You want to be an honorary lesbian? ; ) Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:00:10 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content (njc) > Of course, Jenny! You want to be an honorary > lesbian? ; ) > > Lori Absolutely!...uh, by the way, when can I expect my toaster oven? ;) Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:09:02 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: you losers/Now NJC In a message dated 11/22/2002 11:39:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, lrfye@lrfye.lunarpages.com writes: > > I enjoy w&g but my fave is Frasier. Very well written and so well > > done. Very gay too. the brothers are like a gay couple of a certain > > prententious class! > > Oh absolutely, Colin. Every once in awhile when I catch the show, I > find myself saying aloud, "Niles, will you just come out already??!!" > > Frasier, too. > What many people don't know is that the actor who plays Bulldog (Dan Butler) is openly gay. I don't watch Frasier anymore. I think they jumped the shark when Niles and Daphne got together. Happy Friday Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:15:35 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: you losers/Now NJC > What many people don't know is that the actor who plays Bulldog > (Dan Butler) is openly gay. Obviously I don't watch "Frasier" often enough ... WHO is Bulldog, Jimmy?? Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:28:23 -0500 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: Re: you losers/Now NJC I agree about jumping the shark, and that was when I stopped watching. These days I don't watch much, mostly tho, the Simpsons, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Firefly, and West Wing. Bill - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:09 PM Subject: Re: you losers/Now NJC In a message dated 11/22/2002 11:39:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, lrfye@lrfye.lunarpages.com writes: > > I enjoy w&g but my fave is Frasier. Very well written and so well > > done. Very gay too. the brothers are like a gay couple of a certain > > prententious class! > > Oh absolutely, Colin. Every once in awhile when I catch the show, I > find myself saying aloud, "Niles, will you just come out already??!!" > > Frasier, too. > What many people don't know is that the actor who plays Bulldog (Dan Butler) is openly gay. I don't watch Frasier anymore. I think they jumped the shark when Niles and Daphne got together. Happy Friday Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:25:54 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: you losers/Now NJC Lori Fye wrote: > > What many people don't know is that the actor who plays Bulldog > > (Dan Butler) is openly gay. > > Obviously I don't watch "Frasier" often enough ... WHO is Bulldog, > Jimmy?? The hyper hetero Sportscaster on the radio station. Not on very often any more. I saw Dan's one man show in Tampa last year and it was excellent. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:34:35 -0000 From: LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk Subject: RE: you losers/Now NJC Jimmy > I think they jumped the shark when Niles and Daphne got together. Ok, message from mother Ingland, what does 'jumping the shark' mean? ....And make it good.. Les (londin) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:41:51 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: you losers/Now NJC Regarding Jimmy's use of a new phrase, Les Ross asks: << what does 'jumping the shark' mean? >> Could this mean that Jimmy has finally stopped 'choking the chicken'? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:43:37 -0000 From: LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk Subject: RE: you losers/Now NJC people have a right to know....... >>>Regarding Jimmy's use of a new phrase, Les Ross asks: >>>><< what does 'jumping the shark' mean? >> >>>>>>Could this mean that Jimmy has finally stopped 'choking the chicken'? >>>>>>>>> --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:44:38 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: you losers/Now NJC > Could this mean that Jimmy has finally stopped 'choking the chicken'? He was choking the chicken? All this time I thought he was spanking the monkey. What a zoo. Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:45:30 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Jumping The Shark NJC In a message dated 11/22/2002 12:34:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk writes: > Ok, message from mother Ingland, what does 'jumping the > shark' mean? It signifies when something stopped being good and started downhill. The point of reference is the show "Happy Days", which had an episode where the characters were water skiing and one of them (Potsie? Fonzie?) jumped over a shark while skiing. It was so stupid that it was universally agreed that it was the point of demarcation for deciding that the show was no longer worthwhile. For more info: http://www.jumptheshark.com/ Bob NP: Clark Carlton, "Shine" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:46:02 +0100 From: "laurent Fonquerne" Subject: 1st French point of view about Tlog Hi all, Here it is, the first article about Travelogue in France. A very very good article from Nick Kent in "Libiration". I hope you all can read french ;-) I really want to be on next tuesday, so I could buy it. By the way, I wrote something about that record in my Blog last week. I talked about "the rumours" and the waiting of that record... Finally, I am the 1st french guy who talked about Tlog in a public media ! http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=68811# my blog : http://innervoice.blogspot.com/ Laurent Fonquerne. NP : Ultra Nate (Twisted) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:49:11 -0500 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: jumpin the shark njc It's the moment when a television series resorts to some measure to revive the show. The phrase comes from Happy Days, when Fonzie did a motorcycle jump over a shark. Other notables are the second Darrin on Bewitched, Laverne and Shirley move to California, cousin Oliver on the Brady Bunch, Jeannie and Major Nelson get married, etc... Bill - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:34 PM Subject: RE: you losers/Now NJC Jimmy > I think they jumped the shark when Niles and Daphne got together. Ok, message from mother Ingland, what does 'jumping the shark' mean? ....And make it good.. Les (londin) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:48:48 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: norah jones njc Hello Colin, Ravi Shankar was a sitar player & friend of George Harrison. He often toured and recorded with George. Yes there was a pretty nice picture of her in RS as well recently. No I haven't had it framed = yet! And thanks Colin - hope she turns out to be a good one long term. I remember a singer back in the very late 80's maybe 90, Tanita Tikarim, who had a great debut album and then I never heard from her again. Has anyone else?! Peace, Susan - --- colin wrote: > > > > > > As mentioned here before, she is the > >daughter of Ravi Shankar (sp). > > > who he/she? > > > > > > >She is also very beautiful - not that I noticed! > > > yes she looks to be on th cd cover. > > lazy meloncholy is a good phrase to describe the album. Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:47:18 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: you losers/Now NJC Lori writes: << He was choking the chicken? All this time I thought he was spanking the monkey. What a zoo. >> I'll say! You should see his trouser snake! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:49:54 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: 1st French point of view about Tlog Laurent writes: << I wrote something about that record in my Blog last week. >> A Tlog blog!? That's great! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:50:08 -0000 From: LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk Subject: RE: Jumping The Shark NJC ...and there's even a URL..... ...i'm humbled..........illuminated and most grateful >>>>>>>It signifies when something stopped being good and started downhill. >>>>>>>The point of reference is the show "Happy Days", which had an episode where the characters were >>>>>>>water skiing and one of them (Potsie? Fonzie?) jumped over a shark while skiing. It was so stupid >>>>>>>that it was universally agreed that it was the point of demarcation for deciding that the show was no >>>>>>>longer worthwhile. >>>>>>>For more info: >>>>>>>http://www.jumptheshark.com/ Les (signing off for the weekend. have a good one everyone) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:50:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: RE: you losers/Now NJC Les, I don't know about any of the other zoo references (wink wink, nudge nudge), but From www.jumpingtheshark.com: " It's a moment. A defining moment when you know that your favorite television program has reached its peak. That instant that you know from now on...it's all downhill. Some call it the climax. We call it jumping the shark" The term refers to the Happy Days episode when Fonzie jumps the shark pen on water skis. Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:51:08 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: (NJC) Jumping the Shark In a message dated 11/22/2002 12:34:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk writes: > Ok, message from mother Ingland, what does 'jumping the shark' mean? > > ....And make it good.. > > Les (londin) > Hi Les, This will give you a good idea of what "jumping the shark" means. "The recent hot expression "jump the shark" has become synonymous for the moment at which something, mainly a television program, goes into decline. Jon Hein coined the phrase based on an episode of "Happy Days" in which the Fonz, one of TV's coolest characters, water-skis over a tank filled with sharks (while clad in his trademark leather jacket). This bright idea, ostensibly used to draw more viewers, represented a downward spiral for "Happy Days," regardless of whatever wonderful values the show might have had before or after." Hope that helps Les! (it usually applies to tv shows, but also musicians) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:57:42 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Jumping The Shark NJC Bob wrote, of "Happy Days": > it was the point of demarcation for deciding that the show was no > longer worthwhile. That show was worthwhile? When? I must have missed something. Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:59:25 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: you losers/Now NJC Smurf writes, of Jimmy: > You should see his trouser snake! Yet another reason to look forward to JoniFest!!! : ) Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:11:55 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Jumping The Shark NJC In a message dated 11/22/2002 12:57:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, lrfye@lrfye.lunarpages.com writes: > That show was worthwhile? When? I must have missed > something. No surprise, Lori...you tend to miss a lot! ;~) It was never my favorite show, but the first season did have its moments best as I recall. Matter of fact, there was one episode where Richie Cunningham (Ron Howard) went to a drinking party where the game was to drink a dixie cup of beer every 60 seconds. Well, that episode proved to be the basis for what became in my circle of friends the "Happy Days" game, usually guaranteed to get everyone pretty sloshed in about 15 minutes! Bob NP: Clark Carlton, "Love Song to Whomever" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:13:23 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC Even though I was just cussing about the number of emails I'm getting now that I'm off digest, it occurred to me to ask - What do you think of the gay character (whose name I have forgotten, of course, since I'm old), on Six Feet Under and the job that the actor who plays him does? > -----Original Message----- > From: patrick leader [mailto:pleader@nyc.rr.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:50 PM > To: Jenny Goodspeed; chiaroscuro@snet.net; colin@tantra-apso.com; > joni@smoe.org > Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC > > > >Heather, I can't think of a male/male kiss on network > >TV. > > sorry if someone has already posted this, but there's 60 more > messages to > slog through and i'd rather write. > > will and jack had a long kiss, on tv within a tv show, in one > episode based > on a true incident. probably the first male-male kiss on > television was > when two non-actor guys outside at time square did a big > smooch on one of > the live network morning shows. i don't remember the > details, but in the > episode al roker is interviewing tourists and will plants a > huge and pretty > long kiss on jack. not gay enough!? > > will's dialog and delivery are really true to a certain part > of the gay > world, and (i think) a certain part of every gay man. > someone else writes > it, but eric mccormack gets it, and for that i worship him. > plenty of other > straight men play gay so badly, for example more than half > the casts of both > versions of 'queer as folk', (i've only seen half of one > episode of the > american version, but it fit point i'm making) and the 'tales > of the city' > series actors. > > tonight's actually a big night in will-and-grace-world, with grace > supposedly getting married. 90 minutes of w&g! i'm so not a > tv person, but > i'll be watching the whole time. love love the show... > > patrick > > np - bill evans trio at montreau, june 15, 1968 - some day my > prince will > come ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:16:53 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re:NJC jumping the shark Dirty minded Bob and Lori wrote: > > Could this mean that Jimmy has finally stopped 'choking the chicken'? > > He was choking the chicken? All this time I thought he was spanking > the monkey. > Okay, it's Friday so I forgive you both, and besides I prefer to call what you're referring to as: wrist aerobics, waxing my surfboard, slappin pappy, hitchhike to heaven, or go on a date with Handrea and Palmela :~) unsigned ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:23:27 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? Bob S wrote, concerning a documentary on James Taylor> One comment of interest from JT was to the effect of "I guess there may be some truth to the idea that I have written the same 12 songs 150 times - but, that's pretty much true of all of us". Franklin> James is exaggerating a wee bit here. He's actually written the same four (OK, maybe six) songs 150 times. The problem is that only the ORIGINAL four to six of them were worthy of recognition - and the attempts at self-emulation were dismal failures, even, at times unwittingly brutal parodies - for all but the most "blinded by the smiling star whose a "good guy", with a very nice voice (certainly no slouch on the guitar either). But the guy has contributed more "filler" to the garbage dump of mediocrity, than mob-run "waste disposal" companies have illegally disposed of "red bag" medical waste to regular dump sites. I mean, he's got what, four, five songs that even "radio"(speaking of when it was much more heterogeneous and actually wasn't controlled by five "freaks" blackmailing tens of millions from corrupt major label promotions departments, run by rats filled with fear - ready to sacrifice music for their jobs) ever did play? I think at least half of those "hits" were covers. It just goes to ABSOLUTELY PROVE that that ONE OR TWO great songs, a million dollar a year (one MUST tour though) doth make. In Jame's defense; I saw an interview with him on one of the TV magazines where they gave him the prefunctory rhetorical question: You've been accused of never venturing far from your original sound, exploring other musical avenues of expression". He just sort of smilingly, smuggly said something like: "I know where my bread and butter is, I still can knock down a mil or two a year touring and I have a core audience that will pay 50-75 dollars to hear me sing "Fire and Rain" and "How Sweet It Is" (a Motown Cover BTW). Hey, writing A hit song can be alot like winning the lottery - over and over. Particularly with a winning personality. The core audience even sings along to the unintentional "parody" filler - is that intentional, or unintentional? lol Bob S> Oh really ? Perhaps it would be better for JT to have said ''that's true of pretty much all of us". (Maybe he did :~), but that's not what I thought I heard - gimme an instant replay, please !) Franklin> He did inadvertently speak for "pretty much all of us". But once again, the exaggeration applies to all of them - 3 or 4, not 12 originals. At least he did qualify his statement by saying "pretty much all of us". That is what makes the great, inspired songwriters so unique; such a national/international treasure: there are so few of them.... I'm talking ongoing originality, form vs. content, as well as music/melody meets words/thoughts here: Burt Bacharach/Hal David - 3/4 "filler-free. Lennon/McCartney, 4/5 "filler-free" (note, it took TWO of them!) EARLY Jagger/Richards; 2/3 "filler free"; Steve Earle- pretty much 1/2 "filler free"; John Haitt; maybe 1/3 -1/2 "filler-free", Bob Welsh of "Fleetwood Mac" fame - hell of a songwriter (AND extraordinary guitar player) at least 1/2-2/3 "filler-free". Steve Stills/Neil Young - I'd say 2/3 across career; L.A. Cowboy - arguably as close to 100% "filler-free" as per above definition, throughout career as anyone has ever gotten. BTY, if you can get 1/2 "filler-free" designation in a career, that's an extraordinary feat, easily capable of landing one in the "Songwriter's Hall of Fame". Females; Carly Simon, near 1/2 non-filler; Carol King, about the same as Carly. (I'm talking over the span of a career, and I'm limiting this to fast-writing, off-the-top of my head spontaneity, so kindly add to this very abbreviated list rather than criticize, wail or howl about missing persons...any/all disagreements, reassessments also welcome. When it comes right down to it - there are so many tens of thousands of accomplished musicians in America alone - yet just a literal "handful" of great songwriters... that is why they are treasures. Bob S>Of her 200 or so songs, I would venture to say that there are well over 100 complete originals that have no redundancies or parallels in JM's work. Certainly, in some cases the musical structure is similar - especially in her earlier work. And in a lyrical context, there is a revisiting of themes (although usually with a fresh take). And on nearly all of her post-70's CD's there is a consistent texture to her music within a given CD - (this was less true of her earlier works) - though the texture changed significantly from CD to CD - think WTRF, then DED, then CMIAR, then NRH, then TI, then TTT. Franklin> Agreed on above statements. She is well into the 3/4 career "filler-free". There were a few clinkers here and there - but WHAT a BODY of WORK. Don't get me wrong - taste-defining contributions all along, everywhere. As to the original thoughts in this post, Joni can be feisty, and get even come out swinging, get intellectually nasty and still fill sheds, auditoriums etc. James HAS to approach the marketing from a little different perspective - "sweet". And let's face it, from the Arbitron tour grosses and rankings - SWEET STILL WORKS... the ol' honey and flies type thing...I guess if a picture is worth a thousand words, one or two viable "hit" songs are worth millions or dollars. Wow - what a world, That is "if you've got personality -charm- personality -walk- personality, -talk- personality..." Is anyone out there singing along with me???? Franklin NP Savoy Brown - "Raw Sienna" a truly overlooked band, guitar god. Chris Youlden's BEAUTIFUL voice with Kim Simmond's elegant, smouldering, authoritative guitar - he single-handedly made the original Flying V, famous (and currently worth 80-120.000 for an unfucked-with original) just sliding and soloing so tastefully that it makes me understand why the electric guitar, when skillfully rendered is perhaps the only instrument more beautiful than a violin. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:20:30 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Re:NJC jumping the shark Jimmy writes: << I prefer to call what you're referring to as: wrist aerobics, waxing my surfboard, slappin pappy, hitchhike to heaven, or go on a date with Handrea and Palmela :~) >> You're way too refined for me. Jimmy. I usually refer to it as agitating the purple-headed custard chucker! Happy weekend, everybody! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:31:38 -0500 From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content I guess we'll let you in as an honorary member. But you have to learn the song and secret handshake. I actually like W & G...its witty. I find it enjoyable mind candy. Reuben >>> Jenny Goodspeed 11/22/02 10:35AM >>> Does this mean I *get* a membership card since I love W&G? ;) I find the characters and their self interest annoying. Selfishness worked for > me on Seinfeld because they never > tried to sweeten it up, there were > no "very special Seinfeld" episodes. I at first found the characters' self-interest annoying , but I watched because the writing was so stellar. Now I'm rooting for the characters as well (good thing because this season the writing has taken a bit of a backseat to some "very special moments".) Funny, I never got into Seinfeld (try as I might) because I felt nothing for the characters. Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:48:52 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? (njc) The problem is that > only the ORIGINAL four to six of them were worthy of recognition - > and the attempts at self-emulation were dismal failures, even, at > times unwittingly brutal parodies - for all but the most "blinded by > the smiling star whose a "good guy", with a very nice voice > (certainly no slouch on the guitar either). But the guy has > contributed more "filler" to the garbage dump of mediocrity, than > mob-run "waste disposal" companies have illegally disposed of "red > bag" medical waste to regular dump sites. Yes, but haven't you written the same two posts about a dozen times??? Victor, ducking for cover NP: Beck "Lost Cause" - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:56:43 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: NJC Our current "media" culture's tolerance levels Lieve wrote: Our current culture does not allow much tolerance for that, and as a consequence some people may feel stress, hurt or betrayal where otherwise they might be able to find other forms of happiness. Franklin> Just speaking in terms of "our current culture" and its tolerance levels; it seems to me that "media-wise" at least, it will tolerate almost anything: smut, war-mongering, right-wing nuts, left-wing nuts, shallow, sexual innuendo-laden sit-coms; violence, more violence, more and more and more violence. Did I mention sheer smut masquerading as "risque". Our current media-driven culture (both radio and TV) is an open garbage pit (very deep, yet "shallow" pit - wink) of reeking, rotting lies and trash. BTY, it was revealing how the Michael (wacko Jacko, Frankenstein's reality) Jackson's photos of bizarre child-abuse (that seems to be redundant - at least whenever placing the name Michael Jackson and child in the same sentence) totally overrode Bush's absolute, "it's a comin'" 24/7 open "war" preparations? You couldn't turn to a channel that wasn't playing that video all through the day... Are we all ready for the next televised smut to overtake the airwaves for a prolonged period? Just think of it - we're all going to have the option to watch Iraq destroyed, live, before our very eyes! The ratings are going to go through the roof - much the same way those "smart" bombs apparently do... Franklin ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #511 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)