From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #509 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, November 22 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 509 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #505 - painting detail ["kakki" ] Re: norah jones njc [Susan Guzzi ] you losers [vince ] Re: made re dun dant ["kakki" ] TLOG Cost and Nicotine ["Russell Bowden" ] Mitchell, Dulson and Klein or why can't we go on as 3 (oops wrong list) [] Re: Mitchell, Dulson and Klein or why can't we go on as 3 (oops wrong list) ["kakki" ] speculation.....well, who's to know ["mia ortlieb" ] NJC Conspiracy-nut theorists only! [Franklin Shea Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #505 - painting detail The painting is from an actual photograph which I saw on a 9/11 memorial site and someone also told me it was on the cover of one of the TV Guides. Don't know if Joni got it from there or from the photos she took herself that day from the TV. It is spooky how the image is not "enhanced" but really did contain those faces in the smoke and flames. Kakki Brian wrote: > Here's what I see there -- a "devil" face in the smoke to the side of the tower and a horrified man's face in the smoke above the tower (don't have it in front of me right now, but I believe that was it). While I personally don't believe in the existence of the Big S (could it be Satan?), I have to admit the "devil face"-like image that showed in the smoke on that horrible day was compelling -- many of you probably saw it in a photo that appeared in newspapers a few days later. I'm assuming Joni modeled that part of the painting on that photo. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 02:21:20 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? On. Nov. 20, "curious in connecticut," also known as Relayer 211, wrote (in part): " ... objectively, could she [Joni] be called a poet? What exactly is the difference between poerty and song lyrics, anyway?" ... and several people chimed in, the thrust of some of the remarks being mainly that song lyrics are written for that purpose, and poems written to be poems, and sometimes they are interchangeable, and sometimes not. I thought something was missing here. In high school, or before, I learned that some, but not all, poetry has form, but all poetry has content which distinguishes it from prose. Formwise, the most familiar form of poetry has rhyme and meter, and some poetry has more elaborate schemes dealing with numbers of verses and stanzas, internal rhymes and repeated words, phrases or lines, from limericks to sonnets to triolets. But there is also blank verse, which has meter and not rhyme, and free verse, which has neither rhyme nor meter, but still, it has the essential content that distinguishes poetry from prose? The defining mark of poetry, contentwise, as I was taught, is imagery. What is said may paint a picture or establish a mood; these are types of imagery, but do not exhaust the possibilities. Devices such as simile, metaphor, metonymy and synecdoche may be employed. Much commercial music has song lyrics with rhyme and meter, the form of some sorts of poetry, but has no significant imagery, being as pedestrian as ordinary prose, and thus, fails to qualify as poetry. I think we can all agree that Joni's lyrics have imagery galore, as well as, often, layered meanings, and thus, fulfills this content requirement for poetry. We can all think of other songwriters whose lyrics also qualify in this sense. On Nov. 21, John Irving mentioned that poetry is characterized by condensation, the stripping away of the superfluous while retaining the essential, and used the simile of reduced stock in cooking. I haven't thought of that, and it is probably correct, and he may be right, therefore, that on that count, Joni's song lyrics don't qualify as "real" poetry. Someone else on the list mentioned Patti Smith as a songwriter who also writes poetry separately from song lyrics. Others that come to mind are Rod McKuen -- anybody heard about him lately? -- and Joan Baez. On the Joan List, to which I also subscribe, Joan is quoted as saying that she doesn't want to write songs anymore, but wants to continue to write poetry as well as recording and performing live. Of course, the obvious is: Someone else -- some composer -- could set those poems to music. Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:24:42 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: norah jones njc Hi Colin, So glad you're enjoying this one Colin. I love Norah Jones and this album rarely leaves my CD player - well except for T'log this week! I love the lazy melancholy of this one. Actually I heard all about her right here on the list. Then my best friend played it for me and I had to have it! As mentioned here before, she is the daughter of Ravi Shankar (sp). Although from what I understand they did not have a relationship to speak of. She is also very beautiful - not that I noticed! I can't wait to here more from her or .... does anyone know for sure is this her debut? Peace, Susan - --- colin wrote: > just bought a cd by a young woman called norah jones called come awya > with me. not heard of her before. the album is rather pretty. she has a > good voice. > bw > colin Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:46:40 -0500 From: vince Subject: you losers Come on all you fags out there, you all missed Will saying "they paved paradise and put up a parking lot"??????? I thought there would be 18 posts on that right now. and I don't even like the show and I caught it... Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:06:51 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: made re dun dant Jimmy, I also remembered Ashara's report (Part 3) to the list from Toronto (at http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni/v2001.n328 ) relating what Joni said at the tribute about the paintings: "On the question of how have your paintings changed since September 11th? Joni says, 'There were two wars in my life on September 11th. I broke up with my boyfriend. He complained that I repeat myself too much, and I do repeat myself too much. Especially now because I'm writing my book, so I'm writing a lot of my yarns in the oral tradition.' She said she took a lot of pictures with a paper camera on September 11th, and she saw a lot of figures in the smoke. She started painting what she called "repetism" doing 5 double images. She said by painting, it helped her to become emotionally detached." Now me: When Joni was talking about repeating herself, she said her mother also did that. I laughed and told her that my mother and I also repeat ourselves frequently. Like what's the big deal with this guy? ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:57:10 -0800 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: TLOG Cost and Nicotine Gang, I paid $31.99 at Amoeba Records on Haight St. in San Francisco. I hope Joni stops smoking. Love, Russ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:14:38 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Mitchell, Dulson and Klein or why can't we go on as 3 (oops wrong list) steve commented >>It is significant, of course, that this is LESS THAN A MONTH after Michele and I got married. I always figured Joni's handlers gave her the news that I was no longer available, and she said "Damn! I really wanted that guy. Guess I might as well marry Klein..."<< steve, word on the street is that it was those seabird pants of yours that you insisted on showing her that caused her to cross you off her list of eligible bachelors... :~} ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:33:13 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Mitchell, Dulson and Klein or why can't we go on as 3 (oops wrong list) Kate wrote: > steve, word on the street is that it was those seabird pants of yours that > you insisted on showing her that caused her to cross you off her list of > eligible bachelors... :~} Awww...Joni's big mistake LOL ;-) Kakki, hoping Joni would find someone as nice as Mr. Dulson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:44:05 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: RE: waiting... The other day, I showed the TRAVELOGUE artwork to a visitor to the office. He said, "Nice. Would you burn a copy for me?" I roared with laughter and he walked away, all dejected. It turns out he was serious. I just couldn't believe he was so impressed with the visuals and his first thought was to steal the music. (?) Wacky. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:45:09 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: speculation.....well, who's to know Deb wrote: <> Being familiar with Joni's creative sense of humour, is it possible she is making a stab at the music industry with these golden eggs, using them as a statement by saying "TOSS THIS!" ? Also, might the women in the Bin Laden painting have anything to do with the great sex these killers are promised to have in their afterlife as their just rewards for mass murder? Joni was right on the mark about "SEX KILLS"! I have not yet seen or heard T'log as I have requested the album from Santa for Xmas. But I don't think I can hold out! ARGH! Mia _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:04:55 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: speculation.....well, who's to know > Being familiar with Joni's creative sense of humour, is it possible she is > making a stab at the music industry with these golden eggs, using them as a > statement by saying "TOSS THIS!" ? I don't have Travelogue yet, so I haven't seen the paintings but I've been thinking about this one. Maybe what she's saying is that, in this case, she's offering two golden eggs, one from each of her oeuvres - music and painting. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:06:06 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: RE: Okay I have to ask! How do we buy the paintings! Sorry. I signed a non-disclosure agreement. Lama Not! > -----Original Message----- > The sale of her original artwork for the cover of The Hissing Of > Summer Lawns went for something like $50,000 U.S. at auction a > few years ago, did it not? > -Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:15:15 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC The 'gay thread' again? Gees. Can we get back to boobs again please? :) Dulson? Are you there? Choose your poison: Natural or artificial? Lama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:17:06 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: norah jones njc In a message dated 11/21/2002 9:25:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, groovchacha@yahoo.com writes: > Although from what I understand they did not have a relationship > to speak of. This is not true, and she herself refutes the rumor in the latest RS mag. > > She is also very beautiful - not that I noticed! Well, *I* did! :~) > > I can't wait to here more from her or .... does anyone know for sure is > this her debut? According to the All-Music Guide, she put out a 6-track release in 2001 on Blue Note called "First Sessions". Come Away With Me is one of my faves of 2002. When I don't know what I want to hear, this one always sounds good. Bob NP: Joni, Morning Morgantown ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:25:31 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Good news/Bad news/Worse News, njc I just looked at the prices of tickets for Ms. Tori Amos. The good news is tickets are available. The bad news is I'm only allowed to purchase up to 5 of them. The worst news is that Ms. Amos is commanding $150 each for the remaining tickets. Gees, I wonder why a wonderful artist like Tori hasn't sold out her concert? Oh.... never mind. That's what I just *said* to ticketron: "Never mind." Lama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:51:45 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: California Guitar Trio rocks Asheville (njc) I took advantage of my free tickets to any show at the Grey Eagle and went to see the California Guitar Trio tonight. It was hands down an incredible, completely absorbing show. If Travelogue has beautiful, gorgeous orchestral sounds, these guys are the equivalent on the guitar. They are just brilliant. They are all former students of Robert Fripp (School for Crafty Guitarists) and from all over the world- Japan, Belgium, and Utah. This was their first trip to Asheville and there was a small yet very appreciative crowd. Among other things...they played the entire 4th movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony, YES Heart of the Sunrise, Rawhide, the entire Bohemian Rhapsody note for note, Forbidden Colors (from Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence) and many very cool original pieces. With their three guitars (Martins) they sounded fuller than many bands do. They end this tour tomorrow night in Atlanta at the Red Light Cafe though they will begin a Borders tour that will take them to Nashville, Cincinnati, Chicago among other places so keep an eye out for them. One of the most engrossing shows I have ever seen. Just walked out completely amazed and blown away. Victor, anticipating a fun filled weekend ahead with a "mini-joni fest" gathering tomorrow NP: David Sylvian - Secrets of the Beehive - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:58:37 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: California Guitar Trio rocks Asheville (njc) Victor We caught these guys at NAMM a couple years ago and they were insane. I love their Queen cover. I really enjoyed seeing them. Who is the recording coming?? Hope alll is well Paz on 11/21/02 11:51 PM, Victor Johnson at waytoblu@mindspring.com wrote: > I took advantage of my free tickets to any show at the Grey Eagle and went > to see the California Guitar Trio tonight. It was hands down an > incredible, completely absorbing show. If Travelogue has beautiful, > gorgeous orchestral sounds, these guys are the equivalent on the guitar. > They are just brilliant. They are all former students of Robert Fripp > (School for Crafty Guitarists) and from all over the world- Japan, Belgium, > and Utah. This was their first trip to Asheville and there was a small yet > very appreciative crowd. > > Among other things...they played the entire 4th movement of Beethoven's 9th > Symphony, YES Heart of the Sunrise, Rawhide, the entire Bohemian Rhapsody > note for note, Forbidden Colors (from Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence) and > many very cool original pieces. With their three guitars (Martins) they > sounded fuller than many bands do. They end this tour tomorrow night in > Atlanta at the Red Light Cafe though they will begin a Borders tour that > will take them to Nashville, Cincinnati, Chicago among other places so keep > an eye out for them. One of the most engrossing shows I have ever seen. > Just walked out completely amazed and blown away. > > Victor, anticipating a fun filled weekend ahead with a "mini-joni fest" > gathering tomorrow > > NP: David Sylvian - Secrets of the Beehive ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:00:37 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Fwd: you losers/Now with TLOG content Return-path: From: KJHSF@aol.com Full-name: KJHSF Message-ID: <4b.26c6a8b3.2b0f13c9@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:59:53 EST Subject: Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content To: revrvl@chartermi.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain In a message dated 11/21/2002 9:47:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > Come on all you fags out there, > > you all missed Will saying "they paved paradise and put up a parking > lot" So, do I have to turn in my membership card? I just don't like Will and Grace. Neither of the title characters strike me as being very warm or funny, and the funny guy seems to idolize Cher, and not Joni. Besides, I'm usually shopping for gerbils on Thursday night cuz the weekend's coming up... On a more serious note, has anyone noticed that the vocal on the TLOG version of The Last Time I Saw Richard is mixed differently than the other tunes. Joni's voice is much hotter in the mix on that one track for some reason. The vocals sound as if they are out in front of the orchestra, which works really well. Dawntreader sounds more and more like Debussy (La Mer). Is Joni a Debussy fan? And Slouching is pure Stravinsky, and I know she digs him! KEN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 0:4:56 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: California Guitar Trio rocks Asheville (njc) > Victor > We caught these guys at NAMM a couple years ago and they were insane. I love > their Queen cover. I really enjoyed seeing them. Who is the recording > coming?? Hope alll is well > Yeah....it was almost surreal watching them play Queen...really a completely different take on a song I've heard just way too many times...they make it seem so beautiful... Recording is at a standstill at the moment due to other bookings and some other minor complications but what has been laid down so far is just fecking amazing...I'm really anxious to get back on it--patience, patience...it will still be there when you get back... Victor David Sylvian "Let the Happiness In" - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:52:36 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: NJC - Woody, Altman, Sayles Franklin stated> Didn't get "Nashville" quite the way so many did; it seemed to "cluttered" for me. >Joseph>I echoed the same sentiments, however, I thought Lily Tomlin >was the stand-out. Has she ever won an Oscar in the past? She is so >underrated. I >heard that she had this SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF INTELLIGENT LIFE filmed but I >don't know where to look for this. THE PLAYER is really Hollywood at its >gutter-worst and I love the way Altman skewered just about anyone. I >thought the ensemble cast in THE PLAYER is as ideal and as the cast in THE >HOUSE OF THE SPIRITS is as disappointing (all were miscast in my opinion >except Glenn Close who was nearly incandescent as Ferula). Franklin> I'm unfamiliar with the "Search For Signs", but vaguely recall hearing the name from somewhere?? If you learn more, kindly share. As to the rest - agreed. >Joseph>And don't get me started in GOSFORD PARK. I thought it was >brilliant and although some people say that nominating GP is >recognition enough, I think >its even better than my favorite IN THE BEDROOM. The camera angles, pans, >the superb born-to-play-their parts cast were as inch-perfect as the >people who inhabited that world in the not-too-distant past. I thought >Ryan Philippe is a disaster waiting to happen but I was pleasantly >surprised he pulled it off (peripherally related: Reese Witherspoon's >performance in THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING EARNEST was lovely and her accent >was not to be faulted but I have this wish that I want to see someone else >play her role -- an English woman along the likes of Kate Beckinsale). Franklin> Calling all "period" film buffs: GO SEE/RENT "GOSFORD PARK", two or three times if necessary (you won't be alone) - ah, nuance and it's subtle,baffling, alluring attractions! I'll have to check out "In the Bedroom" if only because of the personal status you assign it. Also, have yet to see "The Importance of Being Earnest", though several friends whose taste and talents I respect highly have also recommended it as a "must see". It's now on the list of TTD (things to do). > > Franklin> Judy Davis! What a gal! I'm not familiar with her >> "lambasting Sir David Lean" but it sounds intriguing. Any web >> transcripts you could direct (no pun intended) me to on that? > >Joseph>There are plenty of things that she said on the web that put >her directors in a bad light. She hated Gillian Armstrong's approach >in handling MY BRILLIANT CAREER (although that film made the world >aware of Judy Davis >brilliant acting career). She said also that Sir David Lean is highly >nervous of her because she questions a lot of things in the set. For a >relative newcomer, Judy Davis came too strong and always bristling with >intelligence. People say her best performance is in this Australian film >HIGH TIDE which, if I am not mistaken was also directed by Gillian >Armstrong. Her great performances ranged from a combative wife of Kevin >Spacey in THE REF to BARTON FINK's muse and as a woman who died and who >keeps on surfacing in David Cronenberg's THE NAKED LUNCH. Franklin> I like feisty ladies. (BTY keep slingin' the truth out there about the current music industry debacle and it's genesis, Joni. You have absolutely earned that right, and speak for tens of thousands of us who wish we had the platform to openly ridicule, fume and scream about all the worthless CRAP being "created" today! At least you can be that voice for us: quite eloquently, bluntly and truthfully, I might add (wink). The ENTIRE, or so it seems from the radio, industry needs FUMIGATING!!!) BTD (back to discussion) There's a couple you've recommended here I'll have to add to the "list". As to further commentary about Ms. Davis, I could either get rather loquacious (I can hear JDLM prayers being uttered and answered right now - hey it worked! lol) Or just leave it for another day/post/topic and say that I bet she'd be one hell of a fun/challenging dinner date! >Joseph>As for Woody Allen's reticence as indication for his >approval, British director Mike Leigh wanted the actors to improvise >on their parts. He >would let them play their parts as real people, and you can see it in >SECRETS AND LIES and even obscure ones like LIFE IS SWEET, FOUR DAYS IN >JULY and NAKED Franklin> Michael Leigh... now there's an entire discussion in itself also. Definitely, one of a kind, broke the mold director. Fascinating stuff. The only Director on earth to film entire movies without a SCRIPT. He "forced" the actors to "become" the characters, and thus, do what the characters would do, hopingt to end up where the thin, open storyline would logically end." Talk about daring bravado. Obviously, the great, as well as unknown, actors and actresses must love the guy. Who else would put such trust in "cattle" - LOL. (that's a joke, gang. Cattle: commonly used derogatory term for actors by producers, directors (behind their back) and film company Presidents. What I thought was one of the most unusual moves in Hollywood history (one which turned out to be BRILLIANT by the way) was when some apparently extremely intuitive, intelligent and daring Hollywood producer (I know that all sounds oxymoronic as hell) elected, fought, whatever, to get Leigh to direct "Donnie Brasco". Here is the ultimate "character-study" director being chosen to helm one of the most riveting, best-selling, true stories in Mob/law-enforcement lore/history! And he ends up pulling the "characters" out of the cowboy cop (Depp), and the "normal" Joe hitman (Pacino). What a movie! Even the real Donnie Brasco stated that it essentially captured it ALL accurately! You rarely hear that.. Easily one of my top twenty of all time. I find it so funny (?) amusing, that right along side - literally shoulder to shoulder with the best Mob movies (movies period even, for guys anyway...lol) ever - "Godfather" 1&2, "Good Fellas", "Casino" - stands "Donnie Brasco". Coppola, Scorcese, and Leigh - now that is ODD to the point of being funny. BTY - a grossly underrated, yet sheer classic look into the Mobster psyche is the little known "The Friends of Eddie Doyle" starring Robert Mitchem (1973?) - really gritty, captivating, intriguing look into the "to snitch or not to snitch" dilemma of an aging prison-bound, loser, fringe-mob hoodlum. >Franklin said>Altman and Sayles are both "painters". In fact, for the > > "Matewan", Sayles and his DP - multiple Oscar winner, Haskel >> Wexler, went through several Art Museums and books detailing >> paintings by the various masters and story-boarded "Matewan" FRAME BY >> FRAME as a series of portraits and paintings - it shows! BTY - >> EVERYONE on that film worked for union scale. It cost three million to >> make, yet easily compares cinematically to another classic done around >> that time - "Dances With Wolves" easily - which cost, I >> believe 23 million. > >Joseph>I didn't even know that Robert Altman is a painter, yet one can discern >the picture-perfect framing of his scenes... well, not the postcard-pretty >ones, but the balance he achieves, the symmetry and the lack of parallax >errors. I like the haunting and meditative pace of MATEWAN. Its almost >like a homage to a mountain, very placid and Zen-like. Franklin> Totally agree on all descriptive points. BTY, I wasn't implying that Altman was a Painter, I don't know if he paints as a hobby or otherwise??? I put it in "" to emphasize that his best MOVIE PICTURES are all IMO choreographed, much like Sayles, as frame by frame "paintings". I don't know if either of them ever picks up a brush... (BTW - Sayles wrote an informative, fascinating book on the entire project of the making of Matewan - complete with script called "Thinking in Pictures" - Love that title!) >Joseph>As to LONE STAR, don't you think Frances McDormand was a tad >awful in that film? I like this woman but her excesses make one >forget she was the same >actress in FARGO and MISSISSIPPI BURNING. Franklin> Come to think of it yes.. I also thought Mary MacCormand(sp?) was a bit, shall we say, overreaching in "Dances With Wolves", but with Costner's predictable,typecast, laconic persona - IT WORKED...lol I also must give honorable mention to Sayles for actually making Kris Kristofferson actually ACT, and very well, I might add. I've never really been able to "accept" Kristofferson as a legitimate actor. He has always struck me as one or two dimensional. But "Lone Star" was a different story - he was CONVINCING... Just goes to show the real talent, gift of a great director - to get great performances. That is why some of the most popular actors, who are lauded as being "great" have spotty filmmatic experiences - the real creative force, standing between a horrible, mediocre (arguably worse than horrible) and outstanding performance is the Director... Too few "consumers" realize that: but then why would/should they? They don't stand around and contemplate such issues. Ah,,,the general public! Where would capitalism, commerce, disposable "art" (read: commercial radio and TV) be without them??!! lol >Robert said> (just kiddin' Joseph lol) Thanks, Franklin for a >wonderful and informative post. By the way, who is this Robert who >you are quoting? He seems to be quoting what I said. LOL!! Franklin responding to Joseph and JDMLers> (CORRECTION: the brilliant "Robert" with whom I dialogued in the aforementioned post was, in fact, Joseph. Either I idiotically, subconsciously, assigned him the name Robert early into the post and inadvertently gave him "Robert Altman status" due to creative and intellectual commonalities between the two, or he purposefully requested that I assign him a pseudonym due to his meek and unassuming nature, not wanting to attract undue attention to his obvious native intelligence...you decide. KABOINK, WINK, SMILE P.S. I always thoroughly enjoy your insightful, thoughtful correspondence Joseph. Thanks! Frankin NP Chris Whitley "Living With the Law" 1987. Certified 100% "filler-free". A stunning poetical, musical achievement by one of the FINEST Dobro-slidin' guitar players to ever "salvage" that magical Edsel...INCREDIBLE! (very special thanks to producer, Malcolm Burn - this CD alone shows your native genius, even though Whitley, "green" in the studio this first time out, has never ceased to whine about the way the tone of the CD turned out. I note that having taken the helm on later efforts, Whitley totally lost that "signature" sound which would have done much further cemented his place in the pantheon of great writer/guitarists - TIP: Give Malcolm a call NOW Chris. Humbly apologize and cross your fingers...lol. I do appreciate the long-standing whining though, because without it, I would have never known how totally brilliant a producer Burn is capable of being! I like others, would have probably credited that extraordinary soundscape to Whitley.. ah, producing - you either shoulder the blame or quietly, hopefully lucratively, appreciate the success, often with nothing more than resigned understanding, as the "artist" assumes credit for the "art".) > >Joseph in Manila >np: Wynton Marsalis "Soul Gestures in Southern Blue" Vol. 2 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:17:33 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: NJC Conspiracy-nut theorists only! >Hey friends, TOR (totally optional reading). A film producer >friend, highly intelligent, generally skeptical, non-believer in >CT's (conspiracy theories) sent me this today, stating he puts >"nothing past this Bush government." Of course, I found it "mildly" >intriguing...lol Underlining in article is my friend's... > Franklin NP: L.A. Cowboy CD "Paganville": song - "The Third Man"... "Whatever happened to the third man, the one whose picture was all over the press? And why obliterate a major crime scene thirty days later, it's anybody's guess. It seems to me that bomb on girder number three...whoops, we've got ourselves one hell of a mess." > > > > >Print This Story > >E-mail This Story > > All Along the Watchtower > By William Rivers Pitt > t r u t h o u t | Opinion > > Thursday, 20 June, 2002 > > Stanley Hilton, a San Francisco attorney and former aide to Senator >Bob Dole, filed a $7 billion lawsuit in U.S. District Court on June >3rd. The class-action suit names ten defendants, among whom are >George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld and >Norman Mineta. > > Hilton's suit charges Bush and his administration with allowing the >September 11th attacks to take place so as to reap political >benefits from the catastrophe. Hilton alleges that Osama bin Laden >is being used as a scapegoat by an administration that ignored >pressing warnings of the attack and refused to round up suspected >terrorists beforehand. Hilton alleges the ultimate motivation behind >these acts was achieved when the Taliban were replaced by American >military forces with a regime friendly to America and its oil >interests in the region. > > Hilton's plaintiffs in this case are the families of 14 victims of >9/11, numbering 400 people nationwide. These are the same families >that rallied in Washington recently to advocate for an independent >investigation into the attacks. The current 9/11 hearings are being >conducted by Congress behind closed doors, a situation these >families find unacceptable. > > Mr. Hilton, by filing his lawsuit, has joined the ranks of an >ever-increasing body of Americans who subscribe to what they call >the LIHOP Theory. LIHOP stands for Let It Happen On Purpose. The >LIHOP Theory puts forward the accusation that Bush and his people >allowed the September 11th attacks to take place, despite the fact >that they had been repeatedly warned of an impending strike. > > The LIHOP Theory is straightforward: In the months before 9/11, >American intelligence agencies received ominous warnings from the >intelligence services of nations like Israel, Russia, Egypt and >Germany. These warnings were pointed - an attack involving hijacked >aircraft and prominent American landmarks was imminent, our security >forces were told. Bush himself was briefed of these warnings weeks >before they happened. Instead of responding vigorously to these >warnings, the Bush administration and its security apparatus did >nothing. > > LIHOP is, of course, the purest breed of conspiracy theory, >involving high-ranking members of government from both parties, as >well as the CIA, FBI and NSA. Like all good conspiracy theories, >LIHOP is surrounded by disturbing facts and bits of evidence that >are difficult to ignore. > > The warnings from all those foreign intelligence services, after >all, are quite real. Egypt, Germany, Russia and the Israelis were >vociferous in their concerns. The German intelligence service BND >told US and Israeli intelligence that Middle East terrorists were >"planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack >important symbols of American and Israeli culture." The BND's >information came through Echelon, the American-controlled network of >120 satellites that monitors all worldwide electronic communications. > > Egypt voiced similar warnings that same month regarding aircraft >attacks. Delivered just before the G-8 summit in Genoa, Egypt's >alert carried such weight that anti-aircraft batteries were placed >around Columbus Airport in Italy. The Russians warned the US that >same summer of 25 pilots who had been trained for suicide missions, >and Putin himself delivered the warning "in the strongest possible >terms" to the US government. The Israeli intelligence service Mossad >delivered a warning to both the FBI and the CIA detailing "a major >assault on the United States" against "a large-scale target" that >was "very vulnerable." > > The Washington Post has reported that the NSA intercepted two >messages on September 10, 2001, warning that something was going to >happen the next day. "Tomorrow is zero hour," was one of the >messages. The NSA's charter is to intercept, translate and pass on >to FBI and CIA operatives important electronic signals from all >across the globe. The Echelon satellite network which provided the >German BND with their 9/11 information last June is part of that >system. > > According to the NSA, the September 10th data was not translated >until September 12th, but it stands to reason that they were privy >to the same electronic data the other foreign services were using as >the basis for their warnings. One US intelligence source claims the >data provided "no actionable intelligence," a fair claim given the >vagueness of the messages and the volume of material NSA must deal >with. Yet in combination with the strident foreign intelligence >warnings, the words intercepted by our large electronic ears on >September 10th add to the growing questions. > > Then, there are the threads. A FEMA official told Dan Rather that >the disaster agency had been at the World Trade Center on September >10th. Why? Governor Jeb Bush of Florida signed executive order >#01-261 on September 7th, putting his state's National Guard on >heightened alert status, essentially placing Florida under martial >law for no demonstrable reason. Why? Attorney General John Ashcroft >stopped flying on commercial aircraft in the weeks before 9/11, >something he had commonly done since his entry into the >administration. Why? > > At the core of the LIHOP Theory lies motivation - what possible >purpose could be served by the Bush administration allowing a >terrorist attack to take place on American soil? It is flatly >inconceivable to most Americans that Bush and his people could >demonstrate such callous disregard for American lives, and >accusations that they allowed an attack to happen reek of the worst >kind of poisonous partisan politics. > > LIHOP Theory, however, is not so easily dismissed. Two French >intelligence analysts, Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie, >have published an extensively-researched book entitled "Osama bin >Laden: The Forbidden Truth." In it, they allege that the Bush >administration put energy policy before national security concerns. >According to Brisard and Dasquie, a foundering pipeline project >aimed at exploiting natural gas reserves along the Caspian Sea in >Turkmenistan was revived by the Bush administration when it arrived >in Washington in January of 2001. > > The pipeline project, which sought to bring oil and natural gas >from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to a warm water port, had been >the brainchild of American petroleum giant Unocal for much of the >1990s. After the destruction of two American embassies in Africa in >1998 by Osama bin Laden, the Clinton administration forbade any >American companies from doing business with the Taliban, which had >been sheltering bin Laden in Afghanistan. Unocal's pipeline project >was frozen. > > After the Bush administration came to power, Brisard and Dasquie >allege that reinvigorating the pipeline project became a >high-priority matter of policy. Assistant Secretary of State >Christina Rocca was dispatched to Pakistan to discuss the pipeline >with Taliban officials in August of 2001. Rocca, a career officer >with the CIA, had been deeply involved in Agency activities within >Afghanistan. According to documents Brisard and Dasquie claim to >hold, the main subject of their discussion was oil. A Pakistani >foreign minister was also present at the meeting, and witnessed the >exchange. > > How does this pipeline relate to September 11th? According to >Brisard and Dasquie, the main obstacle to the completion of the >pipeline was the fact that it had to pass through Taliban-controlled >Afghanistan. The project would receive no international support >unless the Afghan government somehow became legitimized. In >bargaining for the pipeline, the Bush administration demanded that >the Taliban reinstate deposed King Mohammad Zahir Shah as ruler of >Afghanistan, and demanded that the Taliban hand over Osama bin Laden >for arrest. In return, the Taliban would reap untold billions in >profit from the pipeline. According to Brisard and Dasquie, part of >the Bush administration's bargaining tactics involved threats of war >if these conditions for the legitimization of Afghanistan were not >met. > > The BBC of London reported on September 18th, 2001 of the existence >of war plans on Bush's desk aimed at Afghanistan. Niaz Naik, a >former Pakistani Foreign Secretary, stated that the war plans were >slated for October of 2001. Conditions set by the Bush >administration to avoid war involved the Taliban's handing over of >bin Laden and the acceptance of King Zahir Shah. Naik went so far as >to doubt that America would hold off on war even if these conditions >were met. > > The result, according to the French analysts, was total disaster. >The Bush administration fundamentally misunderstood the Taliban >regime - to bring back the King and hand bin Laden over to the West >would have been tantamount to suicide for the Taliban. Instead of >acquiescing to the hard-sell tactics of the Bush administration, the >Taliban unleashed their pet attack dog, Osama, upon America. They >were going to lose everything, and chose to attack first in the hope >that all-out war would break out in Central Asia and rally other >Muslim nations to their cause. > > Motive suddenly becomes far more clear. The Bush administration >very much wanted the Unocal pipeline to go through, and put intense >pressure on the Taliban to see it happen. As this was happening, >American intelligence services were flooded with warnings of an >impending attack upon American targets by bin Laden and Al Qaida. >The decision was made - let the attack come, and in the ensuing >outrage American forces can carve out the guts of the Taliban >government like a ripe gourd, replacing them with a 'legitimate' >regime more receptive to the pipeline plan. > > Did the Bush administration have an inkling of the massive death >and destruction that would come on September 11th? Those who espouse >the LIHOP Theory disagree on this point. Some believe that FEMAs >presence at Ground Zero on the day before the attack, coupled with >specific language within the international intelligence warnings >pertaining to aircraft and high-profile targets, are prima facie >evidence of specific prior knowledge. Others believe that the Bush >administration only knew vaguely that an attack would come, but not >where or when. They did not foresee the level of destruction, and >were caught flat-footed when those planes appeared along the New >York skyline. > > In the end, LIHOP Theory can encompass either view. Whether they >had specific knowledge beforehand, or merely decided to let some >attack happen somewhere, the final results were the same. The >Taliban were routed and replaced by an interim government headed by >a man named Harmid Karzai. Karzai was recently elected President of >Afghanistan in his own right, legitimizing the Afghanistan >government. Soon after this, Karzai announced the impending >construction of a pipeline that would exploit Turkmenistan's natural >gas reserves He named Unocal as the lead company for the project. >Before becoming President, Karzai was an advisor to Unocal. > > For LIHOP Theorists, the evidence is clear. The Bush administration >got the pipeline it wanted. Along the way, they used the horrors of >9/11 to place themselves above reproach. In the patriotic fervor >that resulted from the attacks, both the press and the Democratic >opposition were bracketed by the administration-espoused idea that >any questions or criticism were tantamount to treason. > > The passage of the PATRIOT Anti-Terror Act has given the US >government sweeping abilities to snuff dissent by defining it as >terrorism, thanks to the loosely-defined wording of the bill. Bush >enjoyed stratospheric approval ratings that persist to this day, and >American citizens were given new enemies to hate. The Defense >Department, and the weapons contractors who cater to them, received >billions from the federal budget to do with as they pleased in order >to address the objects of that hate. > > Even the most hardened political observer must admit the dismal >truth - September 11th was the greatest thing ever to happen to the >Bush administration. Attorney Stanley Hilton has brought LIHOP >Theory into the federal court system with his class-action suit, and >with the families of 9/11 victims he represents. It will be >interesting to see what transpires when these two facts collide in >an American courtroom. Given the current climate, it does not seem >likely that much will come of it. After all, these conspiracy >theorists are just a bunch of nuts. > > Right? 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