From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #507 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, November 21 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 507 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in History: November 21 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: 2 Joni Disappointments NJC ["hell" ] Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC [colin ] Re: NJC: Michael Jackson [colin ] Re: 2 Joni Disappointments NJC [colin ] Joni to stop recording. [Chorando6@aol.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #351 [SAVtheWAVE@aol.com] The two eggs [Deb Messling ] guardian article - more than a rehash [Deb Messling ] Re: Chicago Jazz Composers Collective 1st Anniversary (njc) [Susan Guzzi ] Re: Travelogue - cost? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC [Steve Polifka ] RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: Joni to stop recording. [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] London list members, please help! NJC ["Deb Messling" ] RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC [LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk] RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC ["Heather" ] RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC [Steve Polifka ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #351 [Zachary Scot Johnson ] Re: waiting... ["Victor Johnson" ] RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC ["Heather" ] RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC [LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk] Travelogue Brainwashed [w evans ] RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC ["Heather" ] Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC [colin ] 2 Joni Disappointments NJC ["kerry" ] Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC [colin ] RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC (now Queer As Folk) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC ["Lori Fye" ] RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC [LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk] paintings ["Mark Connely" ] travelogue - london evening standard [LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk] Okay I have to ask! How do we buy the paintings! ["Happy The Man" Subject: Re: 2 Joni Disappointments NJC Debra wrote: > Those prices really are high! And what a long wait! Is that always the > case? or is this time delay unusual? I don't know about Australia, but the delay is definitely not unusual. It always take a while for things to get here - whether it be books, music or movies. > Have you thought to have people here in the U.S. buy a copy and mail it > to you? I don't know what the postage would be, but it would definitely > get to you sooner than 3-4 weeks and the total cost may be less than > what you'll pay there. > > Anyone know where the lowest-cost T'logs are selling? And be willing to > send them along to the antipodeans on the list? (If Hell and Gerald are > interested, that is.) I'm OK, I have a "friend" in the US who's sending me a copy! And I think I've got the repayment under control ;o) ..... Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:49:12 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC Thank you for the early morning smile! Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: >Colin writes: > ><< It was mentioned that there had been complaints that Will was 'not gay >enough'. >> > >When people give me that line of crap I just swat 'em with my pocketbook. > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:54:55 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC: Michael Jackson >He's going to have a very bad ending, I can feel it. >Something horrendous will happen to him. > >Just had to comment on how horrifying and sad > Somehting already is happening to his nose, it was shown the other day at some award ceremony. It appeared to be crumbling. What he did with his son was dangerous and stupid. He himself seems like a very sad person. His skin is now white and his facial features are now caucasian. Rather than ridicule and scorn,I would think therapy would be much better for him. Something has gone seriuosly wrong within him. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:57:01 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: 2 Joni Disappointments NJC when i lived in Oz, i foundbooks and music media were very expenisive. and thta was back in the 70's. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 05:17:26 EST From: Chorando6@aol.com Subject: Joni to stop recording. Dear all, anyone in the uk buy the Guardian today? G2 page 13 Joni mitchell Why I'm giving up singing! The article is based on an article in an American magazine called 'W' december issue. If anyone has more info and news or can get closer to the truth please reply to the list. As for the Guardian article the header is ' I'm quitting this corrupt cesspool ' . MMn makes you wonder (pursed lips, furrowed brow slitty eyes while rubbing chin). X Clive. (The article maybe available to read at the website: guardian.co.uk) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 06:10:47 EST From: SAVtheWAVE@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #351 In a message dated 11/21/02 3:00:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Hi Joe, > > Nice to see you back again. > > I've looked at the placement of the paintings a few times now and have my > own conclusions about them. They make perfect and beautiful sense to me, > but maybe it is best for each individual to see them in their own meaning so > I hesitate from giving my own interpretation. That's what makes her so > amazing - the interpretations can be endless because she is so universal in > her art. > NIce to be out our lurkdom here, and I couldn't resist with Travelogue out. I have to agree, we all come to any art with our own interpretations, as a result of the history we all as individuals have, are so diverse. I also may have rushed into interpreting some of the paintings, as I discounted the fact that Joni is a Master of pointing out the duality of so much, but that's okay with me, as I have always enjoyed finding more and more in Joni's Art. I guess that is the timeless beauty of her Art as one can continue to revisit ( even some 30 years later) and find new meaning. I also like the thought that she is offering the Eggs to us in that painting. What we see in the Eggs is up to each and evey one of us for the reason that I stated above. Thanks for your response. Back to lurkdom. Joe )in Rhode Island ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 07:01:45 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: The two eggs As I was listening to Tlog for the second time yesterday, the linespopped out "They toss around your latest golden egg / speculation - well who's to know..." etc. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/02 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 07:15:10 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: guardian article - more than a rehash Folks at the Guardian actually did their own reporting, talking to Karen O'Brien, among others, about Joni's comments. The article is at http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,844130,00.html and full text appears below. I found the comment about back catalogs and aging artists chilling indeed. 'I'm quitting this corrupt cesspool' Why Joni Mitchell has had it with the music business Dave Simpson Thursday November 21, 2002 The Guardian Joni Mitchell has often been called "the greatest ever female singer-songwriter", although she has been known to object to the use of the word "female". Many of her hits, including Big Yellow Taxi and Woodstock, are legendary; her albums, such as The Hissing of Summer Lawns, classics. After 35 years in the business, the original woman with a guitar is one of few artists on a par with Bob Dylan. She has inspired Madonna, Prince, and virtually every female singer-songwriter. Which makes it all the more surprising that she has decided to walk away. Talking in the December issue of America's W magazine, Mitchell insists that her new album, Travelogue, will be her last. Calling the music industry a "corrupt cesspool", the Canadian rages that: "I'm quitting because the business made itself so repugnant to me. Record companies are not looking for talent. They're looking for a look and a willingness to cooperate." The singer Kathryn Williams, one of several generations inspired by Mitchell, is distraught: "She made me want to be a singer-songwriter. When she turns around and says she's had enough, it's so disheartening for everyone else." Mitchell's raging against the machine is nothing new. As Karen O'Brien, author of Stars and Light, a biography of the singer, explains, Mitchell has threatened to quit before. This time, however, there's a difference. Following the W article, Mitchell stopped doing interviews. "That's a worrying sign," says the biographer. "Her songs are her babies and she always promotes them. So she could actually mean it." The singer's ire seems to have been provoked by a spat with her last label, Reprise. According to sources close to the singer, the company was reluctant to release Travelogue. Irked, Mitchell took it to Nonesuch, an artist-friendly label which, ironically, is backed by Warner, the conglomerate that owns Reprise. The company won't comment on the situation, but the row seems to have been the final straw in a three-decade-long battle between the music business and one of its greatest talents. Emerging from the hippy/folk scene in the 1960s, Mitchell was initially offered what she called "slave labour deals". However, as the value of her songwriting ability dawned on executives, her manager Elliot Roberts negotiated a landmark contract with Reprise (she has recorded for other labels in between). Though unknown at the time, Mitchell was given total artistic control. "She got the same deal with Asylum and Geffen," says O'Brien. "She's never even had a producer foisted on her - she always went into the studio without a producer. She's always had a lot more autonomy than any other artist." Despite this autonomy, Mitchell has long felt not just uncomfortable with the industry, but with her position within it. "For Joni it was always about creative control," says O'Brien. "But at some point it will always come down to the bottom line. Even when she was on David Geffen's label, money fractured their friendship. At some point some MD is going to say, 'When did we actually make some money out of Joni Mitchell? Oh, I remember, 1974.' I despise that attitude, but that's how they work." Mitchell has become expensive to have around. For Travelogue, she re-recorded old songs with the London Symphony Orchestra, Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock. Although they are friends of Mitchell's and may have given her a preferential rate, none of this would have come cheap. Furthermore, Mitchell's sales have never matched her influence and critical standing. Early in her career, she decided that pop hits were ephemeral, and set out to explore other avenues, as with her 1979 jazz album, Mingus. And it won't have delighted Reprise that Travelogue includes none of her hits. But just how much value does a label put on the creativity and credibility of a 20th-century giant like Mitchell? Until recently, the big labels wanted to keep artists such as Leonard Cohen, Van Morrison and Bob Dylan because, while they might not enjoy the sales of the latest pop phenomenon, having them around was good for respectability and clout. But times are changing. Execs have realised that if they have the back catalogue, they don't need the ageing artist. Warner's recent dropping of Rod Stewart was just as significant as EMI's reported #80m deal for Robbie Williams. In one of her last new songs, Lead Balloon, Mitchell describes meeting a corporate executive and opens with the words: "Kiss my arse!" She then talks specifically about running away from the music biz and the "whiny white kids on the radio", and "formula music, girly guile genuine junk food for juveniles". More recently, she had a widely reported pop at Madonna: "She has knocked the importance of talent out of the arena," sniped Mitchell. "She's made a lot of money and become the biggest star in the world by hiring the right people." "Joni's been quite unforgiving," admits O'Brien. "But then again, she'll rail against these 'women in rock' features and then appear in the next one in Rolling Stone. So there is that ambivalence." Similarly, while Mitchell berates Madonna and others' use of sexual imagery, she once appeared on the inner sleeve of The Hissing of Summer Lawns in a bikini. Her justification: "But I swim every day." "She's a very strong person and very sensitive," says Rob Dickins, her former chairman at Warner. "That's a great combination and a terrible one. There is an argument that she's done such a fine body of work, why should she put herself through a system geared to 15-year-olds? But if you have the creativity within you, it's very hard to stop it." It is possible that Mitchell's pronouncement is a Machiavellian way of drawing attention to Travelogue, but this seems unlikely. Dickins is particularly surprised at the timing: "Nonesuch is not a corporate label, and I would think that her experience there might be pleasurable enough for her to continue." In a recent interview in Rolling Stone, Mitchell was quoted as saying: "I'll be glad if the industry goes down the crapper." It's just possible that this final act of artistic defiance is her way of getting one hand on the flush. Whatever, the words of her biggest ever single suddenly seem resonant: "Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone? They paved paradise and put up a parking lot." 7 Travelogue is released on Monday by Nonesuch. Shadows and Light: Joni Mitchell, The Definitive Biography, by Karen O'Brien, is published by Virgin, price #7.99. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/02 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 04:32:48 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Chicago Jazz Composers Collective 1st Anniversary (njc) Oh My Sweet Stud Mufffin, You know my body better than me! Of course thats our special night. Sorry Fred, it looks like I'll be Jazzing it up elesewhere. See you soon Papa! Peace, Susan - --- Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > Fred writes: > > << If you, or any other jonilistas make it, please say hello. Hope to see > y'all. >> > > SUSAN ! ! ! > > If that's the same night you'll be ovulating your golden Guzzi eggs, remember > -- we have a date! > > XO, > > --Bob, Viagra-free and ready! Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:32:49 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue - cost? In a message dated 11/21/2002 12:48:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, littlebird3333@yahoo.com writes: > How much is the album in the U.S., guys? Andrew, it was 'full-priced' at $28.99 at Circuit City, not too shabby considering that you get: 1. A lengthy lyrics/liner notes book 2. The main "book" which opens up & houses the cd's on both inside covers, with lots of paintings and selected appropriate text in between 3. All this fits in to a larger fiberboard case that fits on the shelf with the other Joni's. NOW, if I can just find somebody locally who puts it on sale for less than that, I can get 110% of the difference refunded by Circuit City. Not that I deem that necessary. All in all, I have to say the T is a pretty good value. Bob NP: Buckingham-Nicks, "Sorcerer" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 06:41:29 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC There as many different gay people as there are any other sort of person and in fact most gay people are not even visible to the naked eye! Why do people insist on insisting that other people conform?(It was a gay person who complained about Will not being gay enough. How stupid is that? I agree 100% Colin. That was a lame statement. I have also heard more specific criticism that we don't get to see Will in long term relationships like we do Grace. Is this because he is gay? Or is it just part of his character? The show pushes and crosses over so many boundaries as it is, I don't see why they would be hesitant to show him in an affectionate relationship, but I'm not sure... Jenny who thinks W&G is the best show on TV Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:51:29 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC Oh, Will is plenty gay enough. He just needs to start dating... lol. Steve At 09:49 AM 11/21/02 +0000, you wrote: >Thank you for the early morning smile! > >Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > >>Colin writes: >> >><< It was mentioned that there had been complaints that Will was 'not gay >>enough'. >> >> >>When people give me that line of crap I just swat 'em with my pocketbook. >> >> --Bob > > Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:56:32 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC that's a good question(s), jenny. here's another one ... has a television program ever shown a long passionate kiss between two men? i have seen one between two women (i'm recalling an episode from er). my guess is that it has to do with heterosexual male dominance in our society... maybe i should say 'united states' society. heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Jenny Goodspeed Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:41 AM To: colin@tantra-apso.com; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC I agree 100% Colin. That was a lame statement. I have also heard more specific criticism that we don't get to see Will in long term relationships like we do Grace. Is this because he is gay? Or is it just part of his character? The show pushes and crosses over so many boundaries as it is, I don't see why they would be hesitant to show him in an affectionate relationship, but I'm not sure... Jenny ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 07:01:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC Heather, I can't think of a male/male kiss on network TV. Hell, I've seen Karen and Grace share at least 3 long passionate kisses in the past couple years! Poor Will. Two women kissing is supposedly "hot"...but two men kissing, that's another story. But, I remember when Ellen came out on her show and they were reluctant to show her kissing anyone at first. I am even more in awe of what I see on W&G when I think back to the days when "Ellen" was controversial - - her show was the freaking Brady Bunch in comparison and it was canned. Jenny - --- Heather wrote: > that's a good question(s), jenny. here's another > one ... has a television > program ever shown a long passionate kiss between > two men? i have seen one > between two women (i'm recalling an episode from > er). my guess is that it > has to do with heterosexual male dominance in our > society... maybe i should > say 'united states' society. > > heather > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com > [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Jenny > Goodspeed > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:41 AM > To: colin@tantra-apso.com; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC > > > I agree 100% Colin. That was a lame statement. I > have > also heard more specific criticism that we don't get > to see Will in long term relationships like we do > Grace. Is this because he is gay? Or is it just > part > of his character? The show pushes and crosses over > so > many boundaries as it is, I don't see why they would > be hesitant to show him in an affectionate > relationship, but I'm not sure... > > Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:02:07 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Joni to stop recording. Chorando6@aol.com wrote: > Dear all, > > anyone in the uk buy the Guardian today? G2 page 13 Joni mitchell Why I'm > giving up singing! The article is based on an article in an American magazine > called 'W' december issue. If anyone has more info and news or can get closer > to the truth please reply to the list. As for the Guardian article the header > is ' I'm quitting this corrupt cesspool ' . She changed her mind already. Cynical Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:02:33 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC In a message dated 11/21/2002 9:55:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, chiaroscuro@snet.net writes: > ... has a television > program ever shown a long passionate kiss between two men? "Queer As Folk" does, Heather, but that's on showtime so I guess that doesn't count. Oh there was that one episode of "I Love Lucy", where Fred put a roofie in Ricky's drink and they went at it for hours..........oh nevermind :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:07:24 -0500 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: London list members, please help! NJC Hi folks, I'm trying to track down an American-style diner that was moved from New Jersey, USA to London in the early 80s, and purchased by Maxwell's Restaurants. In New Jersey, it was called the Gateway Diner, although I don't know if they retained the name in London. It looks like a classic American diner, which means it kind of looks like a railway car. Does this ring a bell? I'm trying to help someone who had their first date in the diner in New Jersey, and they want to travel for London and celebrate their 50th anniversary at the same diner. Isn't that romantic? Thanks for any help any of the UK JMDLers can give! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:14:06 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC LOL!!! Oh that Fred! I KNEW there was more to him than meets the eye! I guess I should clarify myself a bit. I don't get to watch television too much nor do I have any of the premium channels. I hear that "Queer As Folk" is good but haven't been able to see it. It's on DVD, I think. You see, as a grandmother, I am usually in my rocking chair knitting blankets (knit one ... pearl two or was that knit one ... drink two?) ... anyways, the blankets turn out to be potholders. Heather -----Original Message----- From: FMYFL@aol.com [mailto:FMYFL@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 10:03 AM To: chiaroscuro@snet.net; jrgoodspeed@yahoo.com; colin@tantra-apso.com; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC In a message dated 11/21/2002 9:55:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, chiaroscuro@snet.net writes: ... has a television program ever shown a long passionate kiss between two men? "Queer As Folk" does, Heather, but that's on showtime so I guess that doesn't count. Oh there was that one episode of "I Love Lucy", where Fred put a roofie in Ricky's drink and they went at it for hours..........oh nevermind :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:14:32 -0000 From: LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC >The show pushes and crosses over so >many boundaries as it is, I don't see why they would >be hesitant to show him in an affectionate >relationship, but I'm not sure... >Jenny I'm not sure that's the point or premise of this show. I think the 'character' of Will is single and 'wanting'. I also feel that the show in its present form has achieved enough (if socio-politcal matters really were at the core its conception and I dont believe they were.) This show was put together to be funny and make money. Anything in the way of opening the broader audience's ability to cope with the premise is a fortunate by-product. (am i being too cynical here?) For more to be done to present gay as 'unremarkable' will need another format. les (london and who doesn't much care for long smoochy kisses on TV whomever is in the clinch unless of course it's.......ok, enough) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:22:55 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC Ack! I forgot about Ellen's show! I DID watch that show because I think Ellen is funny. And I saw the episode you are referring to. Not only the issue of "two women kissing is supposedly "hot"...but two men kissing, that's another story" but do you think it has to do with an innateness to the sex? Generally speaking, most women enjoy kissing and men steer clear of kissing. Does that generalization still hold true? Heather - -----Original Message----- From: Jenny Goodspeed [mailto:jrgoodspeed@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 10:02 AM To: chiaroscuro@snet.net; colin@tantra-apso.com; joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC Heather, I can't think of a male/male kiss on network TV. Hell, I've seen Karen and Grace share at least 3 long passionate kisses in the past couple years! Poor Will. Two women kissing is supposedly "hot"...but two men kissing, that's another story. But, I remember when Ellen came out on her show and they were reluctant to show her kissing anyone at first. I am even more in awe of what I see on W&G when I think back to the days when "Ellen" was controversial - - her show was the freaking Brady Bunch in comparison and it was canned. Jenny - --- Heather wrote: > that's a good question(s), jenny. here's another > one ... has a television > program ever shown a long passionate kiss between > two men? i have seen one > between two women (i'm recalling an episode from > er). my guess is that it > has to do with heterosexual male dominance in our > society... maybe i should > say 'united states' society. > > heather > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com > [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Jenny > Goodspeed > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:41 AM > To: colin@tantra-apso.com; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC > > > I agree 100% Colin. That was a lame statement. I > have > also heard more specific criticism that we don't get > to see Will in long term relationships like we do > Grace. Is this because he is gay? Or is it just > part > of his character? The show pushes and crosses over > so > many boundaries as it is, I don't see why they would > be hesitant to show him in an affectionate > relationship, but I'm not sure... > > Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:19:37 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC I wish the world would just get over it. I hate the double standard of guys like, going crazy when 2 girls start kissing, but the minute a gay man appears...and I am NOT going to get into how many married/ straight men lead double lives or have (gay)lovers on the side. I think everyone is inherently bi-sexual. It just depends on where on the continuum you choose to be. Some are totally straight, others totally gay. Some are bisexual. Then there are those who are varied degrees of the above. The hardest part is being in a relationship with someone and not feeling comfortable enough to express yourself. My boyfriend has complained that he has a hard time keeping his hands off of me in public- like holding hands or just touching my shoulder- something that 'straights' don't give a second thought too. And I think that whole thing carries over into Will and Grace. We saw the start of him dating someone, but no real intimacy- and I don't need to see 30 second lip-lock to get the message to me. (Grace gets all the romance, and Will is neglected!) So until the rest of the world is somewhat comfortable with it, I doubt TV will be... Steve Just my $.02 At 09:56 AM 11/21/02 -0500, you wrote: >that's a good question(s), jenny. here's another one ... has a television >program ever shown a long passionate kiss between two men? i have seen one >between two women (i'm recalling an episode from er). my guess is that it >has to do with heterosexual male dominance in our society... maybe i should >say 'united states' society. > >heather > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Jenny >Goodspeed >Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:41 AM >To: colin@tantra-apso.com; joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC > > >I agree 100% Colin. That was a lame statement. I have >also heard more specific criticism that we don't get >to see Will in long term relationships like we do >Grace. Is this because he is gay? Or is it just part >of his character? The show pushes and crosses over so >many boundaries as it is, I don't see why they would >be hesitant to show him in an affectionate >relationship, but I'm not sure... > >Jenny > > Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 07:31:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: The Master is Back! The biggest "takeaway" point I get so far from "TRAVELOGUE" is that the Master is back. She's not throwing up mis-shapen, skewed letters in place of artwork (as she did for 'hits'.) Her creativity is very much intact. The fact that she hasn't recorded new songs doesn't matter. The painting is freakin' burgeoning. It lives. And that, is the best news in several years. Buzzing for days, Lama P.S. Listening to "TRAVELOGUE" at full volume at close range on the big stereo, it sounds a little like we are in the balcony, about 4 rows back. Joni's very close to the listener, at the lip of the balcony and the orchestra is much further away, below on stage. There's a close/far tension going on that I'm learning to love. Now that I've "found" that metaphor, that image to understand it, I really like it. Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 07:32:55 -0800 (PST) From: Zachary Scot Johnson Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #351 Hi everyone, I have to come out of "lurkdom" to say that you guys are making it really hard to have to wait to get this CD! :) I mean that in a good way, of course. I'm a poor college student, so I have to wait to get this one and I knew it was going to be hard, but reading the good reviews and the comments on the packaging and everything else. I think it may just kill me. :) Anyways, glad to hear everyone's enjoying it and pleased beyond belief that Joni has retracted her statement that she was going to stop recording and loved the idea that she might write again. I also personally loved the "We can't all be bitches and hoes" comment. I've been trying to imagine her saying that since I read it. Too funny. Zach Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:40:08 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC Good explanation, Steve ... thanks. You wrote: "I think everyone is inherently bi-sexual. It just depends on where on the continuum you choose to be. Some are totally straight, others totally gay. Some are bisexual. Then there are those who are varied degrees of the above." I have always thought this. I remember saying this to someone about 20 years ago and I got the strangest looks! Being a science major at the time, it only made sense to me based on the human body's chemical make-up. My guess is that certain people cannot "get over it" because they do not understand (or accept) fully the workings of nature. Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Steve Polifka Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 10:20 AM To: Heather Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC I wish the world would just get over it. I hate the double standard of guys like, going crazy when 2 girls start kissing, but the minute a gay man appears...and I am NOT going to get into how many married/ straight men lead double lives or have (gay)lovers on the side. I think everyone is inherently bi-sexual. It just depends on where on the continuum you choose to be. Some are totally straight, others totally gay. Some are bisexual. Then there are those who are varied degrees of the above. The hardest part is being in a relationship with someone and not feeling comfortable enough to express yourself. My boyfriend has complained that he has a hard time keeping his hands off of me in public- like holding hands or just touching my shoulder- something that 'straights' don't give a second thought too. And I think that whole thing carries over into Will and Grace. We saw the start of him dating someone, but no real intimacy- and I don't need to see 30 second lip-lock to get the message to me. (Grace gets all the romance, and Will is neglected!) So until the rest of the world is somewhat comfortable with it, I doubt TV will be... Steve Just my $.02 Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:43:59 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: waiting... > I have to come out of "lurkdom" to say that you guys > are making it really hard to have to wait to get this > CD! :) I mean that in a good way, of course. I'm a > poor college student, so I have to wait to get this > one and I knew it was going to be hard, but reading > the good reviews and the comments on the packaging and > everything else. I think it may just kill me. :) Maybe we could form a support group for People Who Have to Wait to Purchase Travelogue. :~) Victor, a starving artist - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:49:33 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC Hi Les- Maybe W&G writters /producers had to take a 'backdoor' approach and maybe depend on the 'by-product'. If they came to the network and said "we want to do a show about the lives of two gay men ..." it might not have taken off. However, they promote humor and making money, then the network listens. Sad as it may be, it's the 'American' way. Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 10:15 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC I'm not sure that's the point or premise of this show. I think the 'character' of Will is single and 'wanting'. I also feel that the show in its present form has achieved enough (if socio-politcal matters really were at the core its conception and I dont believe they were.) This show was put together to be funny and make money. Anything in the way of opening the broader audience's ability to cope with the premise is a fortunate by-product. (am i being too cynical here?) For more to be done to present gay as 'unremarkable' will need another format. les (london and who doesn't much care for long smoochy kisses on TV whomever is in the clinch unless of course it's.......ok, enough) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:54:06 -0000 From: LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC hi heather this made me burst out laughing...i'm kinda in that mood today...and now my face is burning with embarassment with the juvenility of my reaction. "Maybe W&G writters /producers had to take a 'backdoor' approach " i'd be suprised if Smurphy doesn't say something about this sorry, i'm being silly. hope you're well les - -----Original Message----- From: Heather [mailto:chiaroscuro@snet.net] Sent: 21 November 2002 15:50 To: LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk; joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC Hi Les- Maybe W&G writters /producers had to take a 'backdoor' approach and maybe depend on the 'by-product'. If they came to the network and said "we want to do a show about the lives of two gay men ..." it might not have taken off. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:07:36 -0500 (EST) From: w evans Subject: Travelogue Brainwashed What an incredible few days it has been listening to the two biggest releases of the year for me. Joni has given us a package that is itself a great work of art, and while it sounds like a summing-up I hope it isn't. Equally amazing for me is this other album that came out tuesday called Brainwashed, which any of us here who admire Joni's sense that the world is troubled and needs to be transcended should appreciate--- this is the most important collection of new songs, relevant messages for this world, by George Harrison, who is dead because of cigarettes. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:12:39 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC i hope i did not offend anyone! if i did, i most sincerely apologize. i read what i wrote and was going to change it but decided not to. i can never resist word play. hell, who knows what goes on behind closed doors! i'm sure the 'acting couch' still gets a workout ;-) heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 10:54 AM To: chiaroscuro@snet.net; joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC hi heather this made me burst out laughing...i'm kinda in that mood today...and now my face is burning with embarassment with the juvenility of my reaction. "Maybe W&G writters /producers had to take a 'backdoor' approach " i'd be suprised if Smurphy doesn't say something about this sorry, i'm being silly. hope you're well les - -----Original Message----- From: Heather [mailto:chiaroscuro@snet.net] Sent: 21 November 2002 15:50 To: LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk; joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC Hi Les- Maybe W&G writters /producers had to take a 'backdoor' approach and maybe depend on the 'by-product'. If they came to the network and said "we want to do a show about the lives of two gay men ..." it might not have taken off. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:19:01 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC Heather wrote: > LOL!!! Oh that Fred! I KNEW there was more to him than meets the eye! > > I guess I should clarify myself a bit. I don't get to watch > television too much nor do I have any of the premium channels. I hear > that "Queer As Folk" is good but haven't been able to see it. It's on > DVD, I think. You see, as a grandmother, I am usually in my rocking > chair knitting blankets (knit one ... pearl two or was that knit one > ... drink two?) ... anyways, the blankets turn out to be potholders. > > Heather > yes it is excellent. much better than the uK one imo. Sharon Gless is wondeful in it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:25:35 -0600 From: "kerry" Subject: 2 Joni Disappointments NJC Debra writes: << And be willing to send them along to the antipodeans on the list? >> >>I will not send anything to people without feet. >> --Bob Bob, how cruel and prejudiced can you be? I will be sending Joni's CD to at least one footless person on our list and I encourage others to do so, too. Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:23:53 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC oh I don't think they are ready to show gay people as normal people yet. Nor in long term reationships. They prefer that people carry on thinking that gay men in particular, change partners as often as the weather changes. Even QAF, which i think is evry good, shows a gay 'lifestyle' that is foreign to John and myself. (they don't just show kissing on this show either but the whole hog.interestingly, although 'american' it ishot in Toronto. wonder why) Jenny Goodspeed wrote: > >There as many different gay people as there are any >other sort of person and in fact most gay people are >not even visible to the naked eye! Why do people >insist on insisting that other people conform?(It was >a >gay person who complained about Will not being gay >enough. How stupid is that? > >I agree 100% Colin. That was a lame statement. I have >also heard more specific criticism that we don't get >to see Will in long term relationships like we do >Grace. Is this because he is gay? Or is it just part >of his character? The show pushes and crosses over so >many boundaries as it is, I don't see why they would >be hesitant to show him in an affectionate >relationship, but I'm not sure... > >Jenny >who thinks W&G is the best show on TV >Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:15:22 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC This show was put together to be funny and make money. Anything in the way of opening the broader audience's ability to cope with the premise is a fortunate by-product. (am i being too cynical here?) I agree Les. I don't think that's cynical. I think that's part of the reaston the show is a success. I think people couldn't swallow "Ellen" when she came out is because the show was bordering on preachy (which I didn't mind). And it seems our discussion this morning may be moot: From T.V. Guide: "... Will & Grace executive producer Jhoni Marchinko insists to TV Guide Online that at the end of the season, lovelorn singleton Will Truman (Eric McCormack) will finally hear those three magic words: You've got male. What's more, as hard-up as Will is, Marchinko is determined to find him more than a boyfriend; she wants to introduce him to a truly significant other. To that end, she says that she and her cohorts are on a manhunt for "a good, interesting actor" Go Will! Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:31:16 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC (now Queer As Folk) In a message dated 11/21/2002 11:25:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, colin@tantra-apso.com writes: > Even QAF, which i think is evry good, shows a gay 'lifestyle' that is > foreign to John and myself. > (they don't just show kissing on this show either but the whole > hog.interestingly, although 'american' it ishot in Toronto. wonder why) > Colin, I'm just guessing at the reason that it's filmed in Toronto and not the U.S., and to boot (for those not familiar with the show), the show takes place in Pittsburgh. Go figure!!! Anyway, I think it might have been more cost effective to film the show in Toronto. I know "corporate America" was all upset about the show, and it was difficult to get sponsors. Also Toronto is such a tolerant city IMO, and has a very large gay population. btw, Last year Coyote Rick and I walked into the "Babylon" which is a gay bar where many of the scenes from QAF take place. Trust me, it's not the same bar. We were surprised to see a very quiet small bar when we walked inside. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:32:14 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Will-not gay enough? NJC I continue to be surprised that we haven't heard complaints from the right wing about "Will & Grace" -- if nothing else, KAREN's behavior and personality are wild enough to cause them to go off. I'm glad to learn that Will is going to have a lover soon, and I wonder if that will change the acceptance level of the program. (Which is a fabulous show, imo.) Speaking of gays and lesbians portrayed on American television, did anyone catch "Crossing Jordan" last Monday night? The lover of a "conservative" lesbian psychiatrist/talk show host was murdered, and of course Jordan was involved in solving the case. The secondary story was the attraction between Jordan and the doctor, who was portrayed as professional, attractive, and neither too femme nor too butch. The story was rather nicely done ... unfortunately, Jordan had to admit she's not gay ... : ( Lori, a big fan of Jill Hennessey ~ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:34:16 -0000 From: LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk Subject: RE: Will-not gay enough? NJC Jenny > I think people couldn't swallow "Ellen" when she came out is because the show was bordering on preachy (which I didn't mind). I agree. With Ellen, i had the strong impression that from both within and outwith the production team, this show became somewhat enslaved to an agenda. considering the paucity of opportunities for gay issues to find any kind of media forum, this perhaps was understandable if unfortunate (that word again) for ellen the show and the professional performer. although she seems to be doing a sterling job of recovering. Jenny > "... Will & Grace executive producer Jhoni Marchinko insists that Will Trumanwill finally hear those three magic words: You've got male. she wants to introduce him to a truly significant other. To that end, she says that she and her cohorts are on a manhunt for "a good, interesting actor" Oh well, that'll make it over here in a decade or so! As long as they keep Will in a tail spin (!?) and forever off kilter then this will work. Otherwise it'll decend to 'soap'. (listen to me, i'm in the wrong business.) :-P les (winding up for the day, in grimly rain washed london. 5pm and it's been dark for an hour already - i hate winter) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:50:32 -0800 From: "Mark Connely" Subject: paintings Hi, new to the list here, looongtime joniphile. Just got Travelogue (at Borders, on sale, $28.99) "God Must Be A Boogieman".... YEEEOOOOW! All great stuff. I am intrigued by the paintings in the center of the booklet. The Bush painting... what's happening there? Is that a burning stick above his head? There is a bible story of god talking to satan about Joshua, asking satan: Is he not like a burning stick pulled from the fire?" And who is the sly old crone? And what's up with the slut riding Osama? Tell me, please. - -mc Persons who find themselves disenchanted with the whole system of situational obligations in society may seek out those places where reverie is likely to be tolerated. - --Erving Goffman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:52:20 -0000 From: LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk Subject: travelogue - london evening standard The London Evening Standard has nominated Travelogue as CD of the week and given it a good review. Les (London and getting ready to munch on his words when his copy gets here sometime....next week, perhaps) Joni Mitchell Travelogue London Evening Standard - John Aizlewood - 21.11.2002 For all her critical kudos and her perennially dropable name, Joni Mitchell's sales have never eclipsed her influence. The 2CD Travelogue is an attempt to present Mitchell's back catalogue in a new light. Alongside a 70 piece orchestra and backing band including jazz stalwarts Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter, she has re-recorded a 22 song selection of her back catalogue, from 1968's The Dawntreader to a trio culled from 1992's Turbulent Indigo album. If Mitchell is hoping to introduce her work to a new audience, she will probably disappointed, for it remains too intricate, even by the standards of her acolytes Beth Orton and Fiona Apple. More crucially when Chinese Cafe seques into Unchained Melody, the difference in accessibility is startling. However, these songs, with their myriad musical and lyrical subtexts, are ideal for this format and, 70 pieces or not, thisis one restrained orchestra. Her voice glides over Slouching Towards Bethlehem and the acerbic Sex Kills, whilst an ominous funereal trudge through Woodstock gives her best known song a whole new death rattle-dimension. Of course, the exercise might be seen as merely a way of wringing a few more sales from songs which have never reached the wider world, but the introductory swell to Judgement of the Moon and Stars (Ludwig's Song) suggests in fact that Joni Mitchell has found her natural home, albeit a holiday one. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:09:40 -0600 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: Okay I have to ask! How do we buy the paintings! I am looking at the art and seeing it hanging in my house. I sent a email to Joni's management but I have been off the list for a while and was wondering what you got to do to get info on her paintings and if she is selling them. Anyone know! Peace, Craig NP: Donny Osmond - "Don't Dream It's Over" ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #507 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)