From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #504 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, November 20 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 504 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Travelogue WOW ["kakki" ] Today in History: November 20 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: Travelogue WOW [CoyoteRick@aol.com] Travelogue [David Marine ] Re: Me [Eric W Taylor ] the bravo special [cul heath ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #503 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #503 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" ["mike pritchard" ] Re: Latest shocking news from New Orleans!! NJC [Christoffer Gudi Sommer-] another Mitchell show [cul heath ] Re: Travelogue WOW [Deb Messling ] Joni photo [Deb Messling ] NJC Re: the bravo special [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] NJC Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] NJC Re: Travelogue [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: wh*res, atheists and bare trees...njc [Jerry Notaro ] Re: NJC wagner vs eminem [Michael Paz ] Re: JM Painting - Osama and Nude Blond Girlo [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Pazfest [Michael Paz ] Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" ["Cynthia Vickery" ] Re: Latest shocking news from New Orleans!! NJC [Michael Paz ] wh*res, atheists and bare trees...NJC [ReckersL@ebrd.com] (NJC) Shades of Jaco ... ["Lori Fye" ] T'log [Steve Polifka ] Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" ["J.David Sapp" ] Re: A Fest in the west???njc ["Erica L. Trudelle" ] Re: wh*res, atheists and bare trees...njc ["Erica L. Trudelle" ] Re: Is Joni a poet? [David Sadowski ] Re: Is Joni a poet? [Little Bird ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:18:28 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Travelogue WOW Jimmy wrote: > I'm hoping that someone ah hum (KAKKI), can identify one of the portraits on the cd. I'm > pretty sure the girl is Kilauren, but who is the man with her? Donald Freed? > I know it's not the guy she was with in Toronto. It's not Donald, but I do think it is one of her boyfriends - ex or present. I couldn't stand it anymore and went over to Tower to night to get a copy in advance of waiting for the one from Amazon! I ripped open the package right there in the store and was/am just blown away beyond words. It was like looking at a favorite little magic book from childhood. I think this is one of the greatest creations she has ever achieved. Huge. I see at least three Grammy nominations. Unbelievable. Thinking back on my little chat with her a year ago September I am even more awed and chilled. There she was talking about these paintings she had done starting 9/11 from photos she had taken with a disposable camera off the TV. I had no concept that those paintings could have been this awesome. How she could have executed these in just a few days. I guess each will interpret her 9/11 paintings in their own way, but my overwhelming feeling is that they are a dear gift of love to America - a brave gift of recognition and empathy. She did talk that day of people who sometimes wave the flag emptily - she also exclaimed resolutely "I may be a Canadian but I am an American, too, you know!!" I loved seeing her Jacarandas in Bel Air painting which I've bootlegged and sent to some of you. And was surprised to see the counterpart to her painting in the deer park in Japan - now this time the other painting that day of Wayne Shorter's wife Ana who was lost in the TWA 800 tragedy. The most gorgeous painting of all I thought was of her grandson Marlin. It was also great to see the two children playing in the pond/waterfall. She said in one interview that the scene was a picnic she had up in B.C. and that they are the children of her manager. I'm also curious about the two egg th eme that runs throughout several of the paintings. Maybe a good interview question for her next time, Rolling Stone. Also, the Indian man and woman. I'm sure we will hear the answers eventually. What an astounding work in every way. It is overwhelming. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:08:03 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: November 20 1966: Chuck and Joni perform at the Second Fret in Philadelphia. 1975: Joni performed with the Rolling Thunder Revue at the Harvard Square Theater in Cambridge, Mass., singing 'Edith and The Kingpin' and 'Don't Interrupt The Sorrow'. 1976: Joni, with John Sebastian, Country Joe McDonald and Fred Neil, took part in "California Celebrates The Whales Day" at the Memorial Auditorium in Sacramento, California. - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:17:04 EST From: CoyoteRick@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue WOW WOW is right!! Right now at Casa Alegre sits 35 copies of Travelouge -- and I can't get to them as I am imprisoned here in the San Diego cul-de-sac city until Thursday evening!! Brad called me tonight and asked if he could just open one of them. Argh..but of course, I agreed. He called back saying, "Rick, you have to hear this!!" I am not a happy camper at the Hilton. The other copies are being given to each one of my staff members at our Casa Alegere Holiday Party on December 6. Fresh meat. No regrets (just patience) Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood California ...only fools are afraid to be burned by fire... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:29:06 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Travelogue Hi List -- It's late and I'm tired and have so much to say about Travelogue...but will just make a few observations. I've been listening to it for about a month, and the songs are just beginning to unfold for me. While I was immediately drawn to a few tracks like "The Dawntreader" and "Be Cool", I had reservations about some of the material, especially on the first disc. Also, while I thought that the Hejira songs were nice, they seemed to me to lack the spark of the original recordings. Well, they do...but they posses a richness and scope and pathos that I am only beginning to appreciate. Refuge of The Roads...transcendent!!!!!!! The artwork, which is gorgeous, has really opened my eyes to the intensely personal nature of the whole presentation (I hesitate to call it a CD because I do believe that the artwork is an integral part of the whole). She is really offering an overview not just of her work, but of her life. The dedication to her parents, the thoughtful political content, the spectacularly ambitious and beautiful music and the exceptional paintings are all of a piece, and for me, they speak not only to her unparalleled artistry, but also to her deeply loving and expansive heart. Thank you, Joni. Best, David p.s. Bob, the "asian gentleman" in the painting is Chogyam Trungpa, the "man of spirit" from Refuge of the Roads. He was an influential Tibetan Buddhist teacher and artist, and founder of the Naropa Institute. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:32:47 -0500 From: Eric W Taylor Subject: Re: Me Little Bird wrote: << I should introduce myself. My name is Andrew Ritchie and I hail from Ottawa, Canada. Just joined.... I've been a fan of Joni's since 1991's Night Ride Home. I'm 25 years old but have collected each and every Joni Mitchell album since I was first charmed in the early part of the last decade by Joni's music. It's Joni's way with lyrical composition and speech rhythm that most attract me to her work. I think she is vastly underestimated as a vocalist, despite her vocal troubles of late. I'm the only one in my peer group who seems to fully "get" Joni's work, which is a bit sad and sometimes lonely. No one really understands what I understand about her work or sees what I see, regarding its wisdom, it's beauty and its truth. But now I'm here and have a multitude of people (in Exxon blue?) to share my thoughts and news with. Looking forward to more discussion with the release of Travelogue! Cheers everyone >> ME THREE!!! I fell in love with Joni in 1974 when I first heard Blue in high school. She has remained the only artist who still utterly captivates me some 30 years later. Today I purchased Travelogue. Never have I anticipated an album's release more. & never before have I been so moved by a first listen!......! Last weekend I installed 12 gauge Monster Cable just to fully enhance my first hearing of Travelogue. Otis & Marlena has long been in my top ten. HOW APPROPRIATE! Amelia has always been in my top five. Both left me speechless. But You Dream Flat Tires BLEW ME AWAY!!! I started balling (crying U pervs!) when I first heard Love. Slouching Toward Bethlehem (my personal all-time fave Joni tune) exceeded every expectation, turning me into a pile of total mush! Sire of Sorrow, Judgment of the Moon & Stars, the Roses........ I am truly breathless! ;~* Part 2 2 be or not to be? May I just add that anyone who thinks that Joni has LOST HER VOICE is a cunt whore~~~~~~~ Sorry Madonna? Oops, `ET NP: Travelogue` (Very possibly Joni's finest work 2 date) ? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:35:11 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: the bravo special Waaah! As mentioned by others the special on Joni listed on bravo.ca until today("Both Sides Now and Then") was substituted for the '98 CBC special "Painting With Words". I raced through pouring rain from traffic blocked bridge to blocked bridge to get home to tape it for us all and even in a last ditch attempt ended up dropping off Adrian (my roomie) to take the skytrain home so he'd be there in time to tape it...which he did. I wrote bravo the following email to find out what happened; - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, As an ardent admirer of Ms Mitchell, I am both miffed and curious why the program listed on Monday Nov 18 for Joni Mitchell was listed like this: "Joni Mitchell: Both Sides Now And Then November 19 @ 9pm ET / 6pm PT In this exclusive documentary, the renowned Canadian singer-songwriter tells her story; in-depth interviews are interwoven with her words and music. The film explores the impact of lonely Prairie winters and childhood illness, an unplanned pregnancy, and a disastrous early marriage on Mitchell's evolution as a writer, vocalist and musician. Both Sides Now And Then features commentary from the prominent artists who know her personally, such as Neil Young and Bob Dylan, as well as the contemporary musicians she has influenced, like Prince, Tori Amos and Sarah McLachlan." But what actually aired at that time slot on Tues Nov 19 was not that program at all but rather a different Mitchell show I had seen on CBC back in 1998. The listing on Tues had been changed to reflect the program which actually aired and read thus: "Joni Mitchell: Painting With Words And Music November 19 @ 9pm ET / 6pm PT The renowned Canadian singer-songwriter performs for an intimate audience in Los Angeles. Not only does she share her musical art, but her visual art as well - Mitchell designed the luxurious set herself and decorated it with her own paintings, creating a coffeehouse-like atmosphere. Against this distinctive backdrop, Mitchell plays material spanning her entire career; celebrity friends such as Rosanna Arquette, k.d. lang and Graham Nash gather to hear favourites like "Big Yellow Taxi," "Woodstock," "Hejira" and "Trouble Man." A very special performance from a legendary talent. " And worse ...under the listings section the title for the"Painting With Words" show is given the content details of the "Both Sides Now and Then" show. Hello? What the heck is going on? I could have been killed speeding home thru the rain to see this new show...grrrrrrr...and now I am going to have sacrifice two more cute little kittens on the Joni altar tonight...see what you people make me do? :) cul heath vancouver - ---------------------------------------- Sorry about that jmdl-ers. I will let you know about if they plan to air the Both Sides Now and Then in the near future. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:37:04 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #503 And the packaging is simply divine Shure beetz the hattbockz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:39:47 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #503 "all the bosses in that industry have been so nice since I knocked it, everything's been smoothed over maybe that's all she wanted, Joni is kind of child-like in how she she gets hurt and then makes up... Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:53:18 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" >>And man, that painting of Kilauren and ? is so good it looks like a photograph! Don't you have this the wrong way around, Bob? The point, IMHO, is that a really great photo should approach the beauty of a painting. This is preferable to having someone trying to paint something which could pass for a photograph. Or am I talking through my asp? I know the hyperrealist school tries this and it's sometimes interesting. Unfortunately, we are so used to photographs that we (some of us) tend to see them (in both 'senses') as the real reality, rather than just one image of it, among many other possibilities. It's like the guy who films himself having sex and then can't wait to get home and watch the video. mike (who knows irony when he smells it, sorry Bob) in bcn NP - Pat Metheny - Electric Counterpoint ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:49:08 +0100 From: Christoffer Gudi Sommer-Gleerup Subject: Re: Latest shocking news from New Orleans!! NJC Citat Maggie McNally : > Actually, she referred to us as "old peoples" - Alex and I have come to > use that phrase on a regular basis. Mostly as in, "well, of course we're > tired, we're old peoples." We especially loved the peoples as plural > part. No, it DID say "old hippies", Susan. Although, I shouldn't ruin the fun for you guys... ;-P I'll write my 0.2 on T'log tomorrow. Tonight has been another fun night out with Jack Neilson celebrating the shipping-off of his debut-cd! I'm SO happy for him and, I warn you, the result is creating severe goosebumps! And I finally got a Danish Carlsberg after a month of withdrawal... Goodnight old (and young) peoples! Christina ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 02:33:38 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: another Mitchell show Here's another show featuring Mitchell...this one one CMT to air sometime next April: TNT Plans Joni Mitchell Tribute Wed, Mar 22, 2000 06:07 AM PDT [TABLE NOT SHOWN] LOS ANGELES (Zap2it.com) - TNT cable net is planning to film a tribute concert to Joni Mitchell at the Hammerstein Ballroom. According to Variety, the concert will not only feature Mitchell--Shawn Colvin, Elton John, Wynonna Judd, Chaka Khan, Diana Krall, k.d. lang, Richard Thompson and Cassandra Wilson are scheduled to perform as well. Launched in 1998 with "Burt Bacharach: One Amazing Night," the TNT Masters Series showcases artists whose work have helped shape pop culture. Most recently, thee cable net featured "One Love: The Bob Marley All-Star Tribute." Ashley Judd will host the Mitchell tribute, which is set to air in April. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:16:23 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Travelogue WOW I'm guessing the Indian-looking man is Chogyam Trungpa?? And my take on the naked lady-Osama picture was different from what Joni described herself, so go figure! My first impression was that Joni was depicting fundamentalism and sexual exploitation as opposite faces of the same degradation. And the phrase "made redundant" -- in British English, that means "laid off," am I right? Like most of you, I am awestruck by this packaging. What a wonderful job. I do have a question. Are there "liner notes" per se? The Post review talked of liner notes that asked people to consider these songs slowly - I can't find any such notes. Musically - GORGEOUS. I love these arrangements. I've only heard it once through, and not all songs with proper attention yet (it's a busy week). The standouts for me are Flat Tires, Dawntreader, spooky Slouching Toward Bethlehem, Sire of Sorrow. I don't find the arrangements ponderous or overblown at all. I think Joni's doing the very best she can with her voice, although the technical limitations are more apparent than ever in some songs - maybe because I'm compelled to remember her early vocal strength and flexibility as I'm listening to these new versions of her songs. At 11:18 PM 11/19/02 -0800, you wrote: > Also, the Indian man and woman. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/02 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:47:24 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Joni photo Small photo of Joni at SOCAN awards available at the following site. Scroll to the bottom: http://www.newswire.ca/releases/November2002/18/c2877.html - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/02 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:52:58 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: the bravo special In a message dated 11/20/2002 3:35:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, culheath@telus.net writes: > I could have been killed speeding home thru the rain to see > this new > show...grrrrrrr... Well, I'm sure I speak for about 800+ folks when I say that I'm glad you didn't! Cul, it was just a false alarm, but a BIG THANKS anyway for your efforts. Your heart is in a good place. Bob NP: James Brown, "Licking Stick-Licking Stick" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:01:05 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" In a message dated Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:53:18 +0100, ink08@hotmail.com writes: > Don't you have this the wrong way around, Bob? The point, IMHO, is that a really great photo should approach the beauty > of a painting. I suppose I shouldn't have made the comparison as they are two distinct art forms. I just found this painting so specific & accurate as opposed to her other work which tends to be a little more abstract. The bottom line is I think it's a 'purdy pitcher'. :~) And speaking of photogs, our own Alice S. in Asheville has had an exhibit of her fine photography at Warren Wilson college. There's a closing reception this Friday, and I'm excited about seeing Alice & her work. Way to go Alice! Bob NP: James Brown, "Sex Machine" (James should do his own Travelogue...this one would sound spectacular with a 70-piece orchestra! ;~D) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:01:26 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Travelogue In a message dated 11/20/2002 3:29:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, davidmarine@mindspring.com writes: > p.s. Bob, the "asian gentleman" in the painting is Chogyam Trungpa, the "man > of spirit" from Refuge of the Roads. Thanks David...you mean he was the guy who drank & womanized? Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:12:33 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: wh*res, atheists and bare trees...njc mack watson-bush wrote: > Erica wrote: > > Christina Agularia rolling around half naked with 10 sweaty guys lurking > on, > > the modern day equivalent to Marylin being carried by tuxedoed men singing > > "Diamonds are a girls best friend. > > Well, in actuality, of couse they are not equivalent. But in the way that > people viewed them and their actions might just be. Remember Marilyn wore > tight dresses, sometimes went braless, and don't forget the scandal over > those naked pics of hers. And twenty years earlier a very innocent Mary Martin scandalized Broadway when she sang My Heart Belongs to Daddy. It's all relative. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:26:43 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Bufflao News Review My aunt from my hometown never fails to send me clippings of Joni. I sang two Joni songs at her wedding! No time to type the entire thing, but I will give you some of it, then send it all to Les: Headline: First Lady Joni Mitchell, goddess among songwriters, once again leads the way Subheading: To experience Joni Mitchell's gorgeous voice - so much like the languid, liquid trumpet phrasings of midperiod Mile Davis - wrapping itself around her early anthem Woodstock is to realize how far we have fallen. This is so strong, so musical, so profound, that it reveals in relief the shallowness of what now passes for pop music. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:10:40 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: NJC wagner vs eminem And believe me Vince you haven't lived till you hear Julius sing woo woo in you ear from 2000 miles away. Paz on 11/15/02 12:38 PM, JRMCo1@aol.com at JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > > I saw the Rolling Stones last week, too, at San Francisco's PacBell Park. > Home of the almost-world-champion San Francisco Giants. In fact, I actually > called Paz in New orleans on my cell phone during their performance of > "Sympathy..." so I could share the moment with him and sing "woo woo, woo > woo!" in his ear at the appropriate juncture. I was jazzed to hear that one > live. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:12:38 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: JM Painting - Osama and Nude Blond Girlo Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > > > These bloodless brides of Jesus > If they had just once glimpsed their groom > Then they'd know and they'd drop the stones > Concealed behind their rosaries If she had only written just this one verse in her entire career I would have still been in awe of her talent. Jerry NP: Jim McMurtry - something playing on WMNF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 06:16:46 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: RE: the Canadian mentality honorary canadian patrick leader wrote: <<>> gush gush gush all this talk about Canada now has lifted my spirits so much!!! As far as the complex is concerned yes we do have a lot of fun with that aspect of our canadianesse. we just like to make fun of ourselves to cover it all up anyway. the reality is, we just want you to THINK that we think we are inferior. (yikes, send in the grammar police !) <<>> Roberto is a sweetheart, a true mensch in every sense of the word. I was having Oh Canada withdrawal at Fest and he gave me the shirt right off his back ! <<> right on patrick re: working that insecurity trait. (which we do have but dont like to admit to it in a serious manner, thus the hiding behind humour). absolutely. and you know, it's hard to pinpoint what it is that is different about canada and being canadian...and then there's my newfound twist of being a canadian in the US of eh. alas, the difference is there. i get such a kick out of all the impressions Ive heard down here about Canada and what it is to be Canadian from another perspective.Ive given up saying Im from a specific city.. and just go along, now claiming the entire country "Canada" as my home. I will be presenting my "how to use a cheese slicer in ten easy lessons" seminar coupled with teaching the metric system this weekend. one more thing i need to mention from Andrew's post: ><nation that looks in the mirror and asks other nations, "Do we >look fat in this?">>> prime example right there. Bravo Andrew oh kindred kanadian spirit. Mags, quite enjoying her captivity ;-PP You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:41:57 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Pazfest David I am so happy you got it and are enjoying it. You must have T'Log by now. I picked mine up yesterday at Tower with Christina and Jack. The artwork is so beautiful and the whole package is just stunning. All I can say is that she has done it again and as far as I am concerned her latest golden eggs are diamonds to me. Paz on 11/16/02 2:11 PM, J.David Sapp at davidsapp@peoplepc.com wrote: > I'm running behind the time but I finally got the Pazfest discs. What a treat > - thanks to Michael and all. This is a MUST HAVE. > T'log is almost here - I haven't heard a bit yet. Cannot wait. > peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:35:36 -0600 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" Bob inquired: <> ohhhh yeah. caught that one as soon as i turned the page. as she says: <> brilliant. and for the first time, her paintings are glittering for me. cindy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:53:54 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Me Hi Andrew and welcome! One thing is for sure is that we all understand you here and appreciate your comments. Best Paz in New Orleans on 11/18/02 8:14 PM, Little Bird at littlebird3333@yahoo.com wrote: > Hi all - > > I should introduce myself. My name is Andrew Ritchie > and I hail from Ottawa, Canada. Just joined. > > I've done a bit of transcribing for Jim Johanson and > JoniMitchell.com, and I'm known as his "Canadian > Connection" since I always seem to be the first one > from north of the border to inform him of the goings > on with Joni's Canadian cognoscenti. > > I've been a fan of Joni's since 1991's Night Ride > Home. I'm 25 years old but have collected each and > every Joni Mitchell album since I was first charmed in > the early part of the last decade by Joni's music. > > It's Joni's way with lyrical composition and speech > rhythm that most attract me to her work. I think she > is vastly underestimated as a vocalist, despite her > vocal troubles of late. I'm the only one in my peer > group who seems to fully "get" Joni's work, which is a > bit sad and sometimes lonely. No one really > understands what I understand about her work or sees > what I see, regarding its wisdom, it's beauty and its > truth. But now I'm here and have a multitude of people > (in Exxon blue?) to share my thoughts and news with. > > Looking forward to more discussion with the release of > Travelogue! > > Cheers everyone - > > Andrew > > Favourite album: DJRD > Favourite song: Hejira > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:57:14 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Latest shocking news from New Orleans!! NJC Maybe because she is getting old herself and right before my eyes. Why when I met her she was a mere 25 years old and had a b-day a couple weeks ago and is an ancient 26. Where does the time go? Paz on 11/18/02 9:45 PM, Susan Guzzi at groovchacha@yahoo.com wrote: > Yes Michael I did notice, but what I noticed more ... was how she dropped the > word "old" from in > front of hippie friends to "new." Unlike at fest Christina, when you referred > to us as a bunch of > old hippies! I liked you up till then Christina. ;-P > JK! > > Peace, > Susan > > NP: Joni/ In France They Kiss On Main Street ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:00:58 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Joni NOT Quitting Yeah you right!!!!! Paz on 11/19/02 7:38 AM, James Leahy at jamesl@ca.inter.net wrote: > Today's Toronto Star story on Joni's SOCAN award reveals she is not > planning to quit the music biz after all: > > http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article > _Type1&c=Article&cid=1035774582299&call_pageid=968867495754&col=969483191630 > > Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:08:09 -0000 From: ReckersL@ebrd.com Subject: wh*res, atheists and bare trees...NJC Mack, many thanks for your reply to my previous post. In fact I really did not feel comfortable after I'd pressed the "send" button. First of all, of course, I'd forgotten to put NJC in the title - that really made me feel bad! Then I knew I had generalised, been too brief (although the text was too long, but I tried to say too much!) and could only expect a lot of people reacting with "she's out of her mind!", and I was quite relieved to see only your considerate reply this morning! Maybe it's good that we're all so focused on Travelogue that I did not get too much scrutiny! (My copy is ordered and until it arrives I have obviously time for other thoughts!) So I'll try to give you some more replies, but as I keep saying, my time is too restricted to be able to post regularly, and that means I should not start such debates because I can't carry them to the end. Anyway, here goes. Mack writes: "Lieve wrote: > what do kids perceive as "normal" when they're fed this stuff all day? - Of course there is that question again. Just what is "normal" and who is defining it? [ ...] I, too, have struggled with what I find acceptable or objectionable, in regards to my neices and nephews. My nephew came home from school one day, while living for a time with me, and announced "my friends think you are too strict." I was put aback by that comment and realized that, though liberal in some areas, I was extremely rigid in others (the children I deemed proper for him to play with, what movies I would let him view, etc.). I, too, have been shocked and disgusted by the crotch grabbing entertainers but worry that if we, as a society, start putting parameters and controls over what others may say and do then we are just as guilty as the Puritans of stifling freedom. Just what is our ultimate goal? Maybe it is just me, sensitive to those issues, since not so very long ago, and perhaps again in the future, homosexuals were not allowed out of their cages without special circumstance. But who draws the lines, who makes the rules? And where do they stop? Do they stop?" Mack, I do agree with most of what you say. With "normal" I don't mean "conformist" or anything like that, heaven forbid. I suppose I mean "Is that what my kids think life/ sex/music etc is all about, or that there isn't more to it", when almost ALL the acts they see, the lyrics they hear etc, are going in the same direction? A lot of my world view, as a kid, was formed by novels, some of which I had to smuggle under my coat from the library because they were "contrary to catholic morality" and from that I learnt that the world is complex and diverse and that feelings are complex and diverse. I did read about people treating love and sex like a commodity, but I also read about great, wild emotions, longing, passion, doubt, absence, choice, dilemmas, self control and a number of other conflicting situations. The dross poured over kids these days is so one-dimensional that it scares me (and most of them don't get to books any more!). Yes, in the 50s people were shocked over Elvis, and the thing is, it was probably good that they were shocked because things were too safe and cosy, he was not the "norm" (i.e. not EVERY male singer had to shake his hips so that kids would think that music could not exist without shaking hips, that in fact the shaking was the way to judge any music). If I saw just one crotch grabber now, I would just have a laugh with my boys and that would that. But now this is the NORM, and there's something wrong with a female singer if she does not have her boobs on display. I think we should not be afraid to still have "norms" in terms of ethics, morals. Being honest, caring, reliable, to only do to others as we would want to be done to us. Maybe the way we express that will be overtaken by history but that is no excuse for not setting any norms. For instance, I teach my children a degree of politeness: to say hello and thank you, to appreciate the efforts others make even if maybe they don't like the gift, the food etc. Not to be formal, but to show that you care. I always made them imagine "how child so-and-so would feel about a certain situation" before they judge or jump to conclusions. But I also tried to teach them to be strong within themselves, not to follow prejudices (like when my then 6-year-old boy chose a lunchbox that was deemed "girlish" by the kids in his class and he came home crying because he was called a wimp - boy did that infuriate me! I contacted the school and asked them to work just as much against sexism as they had been doing, successfully, against racism). I made great efforts to tell my kids not to be too upset when their own likes and dislikes are not shared, ridiculed by others - but that's tough on little kids! So where do I draw the line? Where I feel that those basic values of honesty, caring, respect etc are being lost and replaced with dross that only appeals to the lowest common denominator, to conformism, superficiality, gossip, cruelty, to an attitude that replaces the wonder of human relations to "yeah whatever" and "let's grab it 'cause we've got an itch". I wrote in my previous post: "Yes, in the sixties a singer with a cute face may have sold more than someone less attractive and that was exploited too, and from there on we had more and more suggestive moves and pouting lips and the works" and Mack replied: "Didn't our parents say much the same things that are being said today, about the music and societal changes of the 60's? Maybe we all should just take it all off and take away some of the excitement and the intrigue." And to my text: "...my own desire to live and let live and be tolerant, I see it as my duty to react against this cheap slutty trend." Mack replied: "I don't see the trend. Dancehall girls way back when. Marilyn in the 50's. Janis in the 60's. Maybe when forced to look at things differently, when it involves our own young and our own motives, we are not quite as evolved or as free as we once ascribed to be." Mack, I've already replied to most of that above. No, I don't think my standards have shifted. I love Janis too. But I would not set her way of having relationships as the shining example to follow - I don't think she would either, if she was still around! I remember in 1970 or so, a boy mentioning the Gainsbourg/Birkin's "Je t'aime moi non plus". I was only a young teenager myself, with only books knowledge in that department, but when he said (as an apology) "Yes I like that number, but only for the music of course, not for the panting", I thought that was so hypocritical that I replied (and shocked him) by saying: "Well I only like the panting" because to be honest, I thought the music was crap and even then I thought it was a cheap trick to try and sell it on the back of "something sexy" - while on the other hand I did find those sounds quite educating! :-) The point being, it's not that I was prudish about sex, but I did resent very strongly that it was used to sell music, especially music that could not stand on its own. Next point, Mack quotes me [talking about society's message that] "the only "correct" love relationship is one on one. If someone feels (or expresses) love for more than one person, and it is considered more than friendship (which I think is an artificial distinction anyway) then they are judged as having "cheated" and the other party is made to feel betrayed and hurt and jealous." Mack replies: "A profound thought that deserves more attention, but, one that could be classified as rather abnormal in this culture and could be seen by others as more or less the same downing down of our morals and our society. How can we decry sexual displays on one hand and on the other put forth the notion that one on one relationships are somehow not correct? Who makes the rules? I surely don't have the answers any more than the next person, just my thoughts." And my reply now (hopefully short!): exactly, I said in my introduction that on the surface this opinion could be seen as contradictory to the previous one! I hope you can see through it, though! One of my moral yardsticks has always been: "Is it true? Is it honest?" Selling music through vulgar sex is not honest. Telling people there is only one good way to love is not honest either. (And this gets quite close to the same point that I am sure you have made many times about gay relationships. This too is a form of love that had/has to assert itself against the one stereotype.) This does not mean that I think "one on one" relationships are wrong, not at all! I just think that we should see the difference between what is convenient for society (as for bringing up children, which of course I agree is very important) and what can be, in certain circumstances, alternative ways of relating to people we truly love. Our current culture does not allow much tolerance for that, and as a consequence some people may feel stress, hurt or betrayal where otherwise they might be able to find other forms of happiness. Mack, last night I really regretted having started on this topic, because I cannot and will not discuss my own situation on e-mail, and therefore I feel I cannot properly debate the point if people took me to task, so I apologise in advance. But if we meet person-to-person, I'll be very happy to continue the conversation! Lieve. _____________________________________________________________ This message may contain privileged information. If you have received this message by mistake, please keep it confidential and return it to the sender. Although we have taken steps to minimise the risk of transmitting software viruses, the EBRD accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by computer viruses and would advise you to carry out your own virus checks. The contents of this e-mail do not necessarily represent the views of the EBRD. ______________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:27:43 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: (NJC) Shades of Jaco ... Saw Vicente Amigo (http://www.vicente-amigo.com/) last night at the Barns of Wolftrap, from 3rd row center. He's a BRILLIANT flamenco guitarist from Csrdoba, Spain. Contributing to the evening was a wonderful ensemble of backup players, most notably the electric bass player, Antonio Ramos. SERIOUS shades of Jaco Pastorius!! So wonderful to see and hear someone who can really play the bass. I would love to see this man play with Joni. More on Antonio Ramos (en espaqol, since he's also from Spain): http://www.hvcimport.com/curriculums/maca_curri_2.htm Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:33:17 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: T'log So, I finally got to hear T'log... very mixed reactions on the first listen. Sometimes I felt it was a Big Band/Jazz rehash of her songs, but as the arrangement's progressed, the feel was more comfortable. Tears ran during Amelia. Just Like This Train was like visiting an old friend. The Hejira pieces were very nice. I was surprised at Flat Tires- I actually liked it! The song that hung with me after the first run was the Dawntreader- haunting, darkly beautiful and evocative... It's going to take many more listenings to fully appreciate this chapter in the life of one Ms. Joni Mitchell... Steve Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:10:13 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" Bob said -Who is the asian gentleman in the one painting? His name is Chogyam Trungpa, a Tibetan lama and the inspiration for Refuge. She tells the story in the 4/92 Interview mag. interview and mentions him before singing Borderline in some live performances. Do you have any of those? :~) peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:35:28 -0600 From: Subject: talking to americans > From: Little Bird > Subject: Canada: work it baby! > I know what you mean about Canadians "working" the inferioity complex and > making it funny. Inferiority complex? If we do have one, it shouldn't last long after seeing even one of Rick Mercer's "Talking to Americans" specials -- there's one this Friday at 8. I've marked it on my calendar because it is such a bellylaugh. As I sit there cackling and shrieking over the wool he pulls over his American interviewees' eyes, I always wonder if Americans would find the show half as funny as we do. >I met one American who thought we didn't have > black people in our country and another who didn't know where Canada was on a > map... > I feel my national inferiority flaring up again... See, you *especially* need to watch Talking to Americans this weekend. That'll fix you right up. Kate du Nord ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:46:54 -0500 From: "Erica L. Trudelle" Subject: Re: A Fest in the west???njc we are hhopefully moving to Arcata, our 2nd choice is Ukiah. We are crossing our fingers that everything works out as planned. Where is Laytonville? Randy wrote: I know they have gathered in SF, in small numbers. Where are you moving to? I'm halfway between SF and Oregon (Laytonville). RR _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:57:06 EST From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Travelogue - a UK view There's a decent review of Travelogue in today's Daily Telegraph by Rupert Christiansen, who admits to having been listening passionately to Joni for over 30 years and to being sad that this may well be her last album. I especially like the final paragraphs:- "Joni's influence has been profound. I'm not thinking just of her obvious impact on pop-song writers such as Elvis Costello, Beth Orton or P J Harvey, but on the wider musical world too. The best of our young composers, Mark Anthony Turnage, has explored Joni's post-Mingus oeuvre and appreciates its virtues far more than I do; and America's two greatest divas, Renee Fleming and Lorraine Hunt Lieberson, have both told me that she was the inspiration of their youth. As I sit in the recital hall and opera house, I often find myself wishing that more aspiring classical singers could come out of their boxes and learn from the freedom, colour and expressivity of Joni Mitchell's artistry." This guy knows a thing or two! Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:05:50 +0000 From: colin Subject: Thanks from John NJC John is still somewhat sick. He has not gone back to work. I think he didn't realise how sick he was. We went out today but had to return fairly quickly. Anyway, he has asked me to thank all those who sent good wishes his way. He still thinks it's weird that people all over the world know about him and care enough to send him good wishes(about 30 messages so far). He does ask me almost every day 'what happened on the list today?' He knows many people by name and of course has met a handful of you. He thinks we are weird and that Joni is too! bw and thanks colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:09:41 -0500 From: "Erica L. Trudelle" Subject: Re: wh*res, atheists and bare trees...njc I guess what I mean by "hitting a wall" isn't the point when Tipper will step in and "check the checkers" and no one can turn on MTV to see some good T and A when the mood hits them , I guess I am wondering if there will come a point for the people when sex won't sell as much, is that even possible?? How much smaller can a bathing suit get, how much shorter can skirts be? Are we destined just to become a culture of nudists? Will people ever see enough skin to a point when it just becomes old hat and people drift toward something else?? And I am definitely happy to live in a country where if Christina Agularia wants to roll around like a muskrat in heat she has all the freedom in the world to do so. I guess it comes down to conscious parenting, and once again I am rambliing on an on. thanks for listening one more time, ERica mack watson-bush wrote: > Erica wrote: > > Christina Agularia rolling around half naked with 10 sweaty guys lurking > on, > > the modern day equivalent to Marylin being carried by tuxedoed men singing > > "Diamonds are a girls best friend. > > Well, in actuality, of couse they are not equivalent. But in the way that > people viewed them and their actions might just be. Remember Marilyn wore > tight dresses, sometimes went braless, and don't forget the scandal over > those naked pics of hers. And twenty years earlier a very innocent Mary Martin scandalized Broadway when she sang My Heart Belongs to Daddy. It's all relative. Jerry _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:13:32 -0500 From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Is Joni a poet? I know Joni would consider herself a poet,but objectivly could she be called a poet?What exactly is the difference betweena poetry and song lyrics,anyway? thanks, "clueless in connecticut" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:20:42 -0600 From: "Sybil Skelton" Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? > I know Joni would consider herself a poet,but objectivly could she >be >called a poet?What exactly is the difference betweena poetry and >song >lyrics,anyway? > > thanks, > "clueless in connecticut" Dear Clueless, According to my 10th grade English teacher, there is no difference. In an effort to interest bored 15 year olds in poetry, our teacher brought in song lyrics for us to study as poetry - Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Phil Ochs are some I remember. And we went straight from that to T.S. Eliot. Her approach worked. Sybil _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:22:27 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? The only real difference I see is one of function. The two can overlap (some things can be both song lyrics and poetry), some work better as one or the other. Song lyrics just have to play to your ear and your mind's eye, and can even be buried underneath the rest of the music... poetry has to play to your eye and your mind's ear, and the cheese stands alone. No music to hide it under... Some song lyrics are great lyrics but lousy poetry, and vice versa... the main guy in Lambchop (Kurt Wagner) is notorious for writing song lyrics that look really terrible on the printed page. Relayer211@aol.com wrote: > I know Joni would consider herself a poet,but objectivly could she be called a poet?What exactly is the difference betweena poetry and song lyrics,anyway? > > thanks, > "clueless in connecticut" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:33:18 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? I think she could be called a poet. If you have read the book containing all of Joni's lyrics, called "The Complete Poems and Lyrics," you can see that many of her songs work marvelously as written pieces. Take "Paprika Plains" for instance. The entire middle section of the song, which doesn't appear on the album as sung lyrics, is incredible. I think, as a rule, you can say that most of her songs are poetic, but not necessarily poems, in and of themselves. Not all of them work as poems, however. Generally, there is no difference between lyrics and poems, except that lyrics are traditionally sung and poems are either read silently or spoken. Would the words of a poem become lyrics if they are sung? I'm not sure. There was an album tribute to Shakespeare recently with songs by Rufus Wainright that changed Sonnet 39 into a song. Do lyrics become poems when they are written on a page? Again, I don't really know. "The Complete Poems and Lyrics" seems to indicate that they can. You'd probably have to consult a book of poetry rules for the answer, and there are many rules to the various different kinds of poetry, from iambic pentameter to odes, villanelles to limericks, haiku, sonnets and rhyming couplets. - -Andrew Relayer211@aol.com wrote:I know Joni would consider herself a poet,but objectivly could she be called a poet?What exactly is the difference betweena poetry and song lyrics,anyway? thanks, "clueless in connecticut" Yahoo! 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