From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #494 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, November 16 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 494 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: whores NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Subject: My band, Stryngs. CD almost recorded (NJC) [Gertus@aol.com] RE: wagner njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] MuchMusic Poll [James Leahy ] Re: whores NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: whores NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] joni files ["janine sherman" ] Re: wow, such judgement njc ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Whose breasts are they anyway? [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: thinking of women NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: wagner njc [vince ] destroyers of the habitat njc [vince ] Re: Who's breasts are they anyway? 100% JC ["Mark or Travis" ] Harry Potter redux, the njc review [vince ] Re: wagner njc [vince ] hey Julius NJC [vince ] Re: Travelogue album edition issue [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: wow, such judgement njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Joni live photos ["Bree Mcdonough" ] 2nd version Harry Potter redux, the njc review [vince ] Re: Cookbook ["kakki" ] Re: LA Times Review of Stormy Weather II (njc) ["Mark or Travis" ] Chinese Cafe [KJHSF@aol.com] john sickNJC [colin ] RE: What Nonesuch Records is trying to say....NJC ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lam] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:32:02 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: whores NJC Dear Tipper, you Puritan, you! ; ) > No one here knows me anyway so no one can appreciate how funny that > is. I guess next time I see a video with a half naked woman singing > about being rubbed while watched by 10 sweaty men, I'll sit back, > smile and think to myself, what classy woman,what a positive message, > whatever it takes to make a living, you go girl, good for you, and > hope my young daughter wants to grow up and be just like her. Of course you shouldn't think and hope that, Erica. I specifically separated the issue of the influence of popular singers (and other celebrities) on young kids for that reason. It does trouble me that kids, especially young girls, want to emulate the way certain *stars* dress and move. Does anyone here watch Dr. Phil? Mary likes it, so we tape it daily. A few days ago he did a piece on young girls (13 and 11) who want to dress "sexy" but who are too young to understand the possible consequences. However, I maintain that's different from ADULT women - entertainers or otherwise - deciding to dress in skimpy clothes and automatically being perceived as "loose." It's simply unfair, especially when a similar label is not applied to men - and particularly not to straight men. > I realize this has been going on since the beginning of time....I > guess I'm just wondering if there is ever a point when it becomes too > over the top? Is it all about $$$, does that justify all entertainers > to portray ANY image? Is there ever a case for an "artist" to be > held responsible for the repercusions? I am not preaching these ideas > just throwing them out there into space to see what kind of judgement > I'll receive. One of the biggest problems with a capitalist system, imo, is that EVERYTHING is about $$$. The pursuit of more money seems to be justification for just about anything that a person or business can get away with. Until we change that attitude, nothing will be considered "over the top" and no one will rein themselves in. Meanwhile, as far as holding artists accountable ... well, now you're treading into First Amendment waters. For me, it all comes back to personal (and parental) responsibility. Lori, about to switch to the Libertarian party ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:38:54 EST From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: Subject: My band, Stryngs. CD almost recorded (NJC) Chris wrote - >I'm extremely happy to report that this last Monday and Tuesday were spent profitably in a top flight London recording studio, recording 11 tracks for a forthcoming album, which we suspect will be titled "The Thrill Of Maintaining Momentum". Hey Chris, This is very exciting news. I'm so looking forward to hearing the results of your sessions. Everyone take note- there may not be Joni covers but there will be lots of brilliant original material and talent! I was lucky enough to hear the band and some of the material in Cambridge earlier this year and Chris is right - you guys will love it! Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:24:00 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: wagner njc vince, i respect you and your views but, well, sue me. i have never been able to read the nazi propaganda in the ring cycle. i have read a million different things, but i have never found the nazi stuff. i've found the nazi thing in tannhauser, i've found it in lohengrin, i've even found it in master singers, but never in the ring. the nazis listened to a lot of beethoven, especially the ninth. shall we ban beethoven too? wallyK, np: brunnhilde's immolation scene by dame gwyneth jones. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:59:32 -0500 From: James Leahy Subject: MuchMusic Poll MuchMusic's website had a poll with the following question: "Do you think Joni Mitchell has gone too far by quitting music and saying the business is a cesspool?" The results were: Yes 41% No 59% Not a scientific poll question.You could interpret these results by saying that 59% of respondents felt that Joni has not gone too far by quitting the music biz. Here in Canada, there are conflicting reports about the release date for Travelogue. Some say the 19th; others say the 26th. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:29:42 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: whores NJC > > hope my young daughter wants to grow up and be just like her. I understand your concern beings you have a daughter (young)...how lucky is she to have you as a mother!? (add to that you dig Joni...my gosh!) >Does anyone here watch Dr. Phil? Yes...I'm trying with his help.. to get in touch with my authentic self. Philism's : Your "personal best" will never be better than the one your personal truth dictates for you. "Obviously, nobody slipped you a stupid pill, and you aren't some moron who should be in an institution?" I would address the above to the mother who allowed her twelve year old daughter to get a navel piercing. This mother (I use this word loosely..even sat there holding her daughter's hand. How brave of her!! We grow up fast enough..I think it is a crime!! Bree >Lori, >about to switch to the Libertarian party I heard a lot of Dems are searching..... Bree >~ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:13:36 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: whores NJC Lori writes: << it's okay for a guy to run around with his shirt open just enough to show the top of his hairy chest, or in a pair of pants that clearly shows the outline of his dick >> Sorry if my wardrobe offends you, Lori. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:16:11 -0500 From: "janine sherman" Subject: joni files Moni- Could you post those Joni files again? Many thanks, Janine NP: Chinese Cafe daily T'log Nonesuch release ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:25:22 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: wow, such judgement njc > Some little kid came along and picked them all. > > Heather No, no! It's young girls have picked them all! (When will they ever learn?!) Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:25:50 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Whose breasts are they anyway? Debra writes: << Oh, I see. Sometimes a mickey mouse is just a (disguised for copyright reasons) mickey mouse. >> I think Joni stole this whole putting-Mickey-Mouse-into-art idea from Claes Oldenburg, circa 1974. But Claes never really had to worry about stinkin' copyright reasons. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:29:33 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: thinking of women NJC --- colin wrote: > I always get a kick out of > people's faecal expressions when > they realise that John is my partner. Faecal expressions!!! Holy shite, Colin - you kill me! ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:44:54 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: wagner njc Wally Kairuz wrote: > vince, > i respect you and your views but, well, sue me. Years of friendship and I get that comment? > the nazis listened to a lot of beethoven, especially the ninth. shall we ban > beethoven too? I have placed this out of order. That is a bullshit comment and you know it. > i have never been able to > read the nazi propaganda in the ring cycle. i have read a million different > things, but i have never found the nazi stuff. i've found the nazi thing in > tannhauser, i've found it in lohengrin, i've even found it in master > singers, but never in the ring. Tell me the Ring in one sentence: a bunch of mis-shapen, mis-formed sub-humans attempt to deny everything meaningful to the Aryans. Wagner took German mythology and molded it into an exquisitely beautiful expression of the virulent anti-Semitism that was rampant in his day - which immediately preceded Hitler's day. Wagner was a prolific writer with a very pronounced philosophy and everything he did was an attempt to purify and remake German culture into what he felt he should be. He reached his goal in the years after his death, 1933-1945. The Ring was the zenith of Wagner's work and he poured his philosophy into it: a bunch of mis-shapen, mis-formed sub-humans attempt to deny everything meaningful to the Aryans. (Always was curious to me though the amount of bestiality and incest that went along with that pure Aryan shit.) Dame Gwyneth Jones sang a wonderful Br|nnhilde. Br|nnhilde is an abomination of hatred and racial contempt. For my money, James Morris is Wotan (although I like him in Billy Budd too), and I always preferred Hildegard Behrens as Br|nnhilde and Siegfried Jerusalem is one hell of a Loge (only role I have ever liked him in). Did anyone sing Gutrune as well as Cheryl Studer ? Probably not. (You can tell what production of the Ring is the most memorable for me...) I can even tell you my best James Levine joke: Levine has said he loves Wagner so much, he could conduct it forever, and if he slows his tempo down any more, he will have achieved his goal. Damn beautiful tone poems in the Ring, yes, and some of the vilest hatred as well. The Ring stands as the triumph of the very late high culture of the 19th century and it expressed perfectly what was to immediately follow: two world wars and Holocaust. Wagner forces us to confront everything we wish to deny, that what is most beautiful to us may be most hateful to others - not hateful in their opinions, but that what we love may be the direct cause of evil to others and an expression of our evil that we have cloaked in beauty to disguise it from others, and most especially, disguise it from ourselves. Deny, or struggle with it, or sue me because I am not suing you. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:48:46 -0500 From: vince Subject: destroyers of the habitat njc > > Some little kid came along and picked them all. > > > > Heather Mark or Travis wrote: > No, no! It's young girls have picked them all! > > (When will they ever learn?!) > > Young girls have picked them, every one. Big argument: best version: Peter, Paul & Mary, Kingston Trio, Pete Seeger, or perhaps another? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:04:24 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Who's breasts are they anyway? 100% JC > At a time when many beautiful young women were selling their images on > their covers (sorry, Colin, Carly in that nightie on the cover was a > sell out) it is important to remember that a few, like Joni, Laura, > Janis, Judy, and Joan never did. In fact, the cover of Joan on Farewell > Angelina makes here look much less attractive than the beauty she still > remains today. > I think Jerry makes a very good point here and I think it's a big part of why Joni has such a low opinion of Madonna as an artist. Joni has worked in the music business for more than 30 years, turning out work of a quality and depth that few people have even begun to approach. She has done this with dignity, grace and class. So now she sees Madonna, a person whose talent is maybe a notch or two above mediocre, resorting to every outrageous antic of self-promotion in the book and dragging down the standard that Joni worked so hard to set and maintain. On top of that, Madonna has the nerve to proclaim Joni as one of her influences. I'm no prude. I admit to having enjoyed watching Ricky Martin on tv shaking his bon-bon or whatever the hell he calls it from time to time. I own just about everything that Carly Simon has recorded but I know that she didn't appear bra-less on 'No Secrets' with her nipples on high-beam or kneeling on the floor in those black boots and black lace teddy on 'Playin' Possum' because she thought it was an artistic statement. She was using her natural attributes as an extremely sensual-looking woman to sell her albums. But there's a difference. Carly has talent in spades. Maybe not the same kind of talent that Joni has but in terms of pop singing and songwriting, Carly's in the upper echelon, imo. And Janis, bless her, was the all time Earth Mama. She was sexy, earthy, visceral and exploding with the gigantic soul and talent that consumed her from the inside out. I can hardly separate Janis's talent from her image. She wore the times, her soul and her heart on her sleeve and everywhere else on her exterior, for that matter. But Madonna? Others have said it, but I will say it again that without her shrewdness about self-promotion, her dancing ability, her bitchin' bod and the people she gets to produce and play on her records, nobody would bother with her. Her voice is ok but nothing remarkable. I guess she's co-written some of her songs but, again, they are ok as pop ditties but nothing great. So I have to agree with Joni. Madonna has taken talent (at least exceptional talent) out of the equation and become a cultural icon mostly by making herself sound good and shoving T and A in our faces. It's like she's turned live music into a Las Vegas showgirl act. Why wouldn't this make Joni, a true artist who has worked for so long to maintain a standard of integrity and excellence with dignity and class, pissed off about it? Madonna cites Joni as an influence when in fact by lowering the standards that Joni has worked so hard to set, she is really pissing all over those standards. Mark E in Seattle on the soap box tonight. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 01:05:07 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: wagner njc oh well. this is what happens when two opera buffs (do i dare to use the Q word?) discuss opera. i didn't mean to be flippant with my beethoven comment. love as always, wally ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:09:16 -0500 From: vince Subject: Harry Potter redux, the njc review Of course Gage and I saw it on opening day - what the hell else is a grandfather for? The popcorn scale: I finished all of my and some of his, so I was suitably engrossed but yet somewhat bored or the movie is a tad long - usually I can make a bucket last a long time. He ate some of his popcorn but not much - he was very engrossed. The Reeses Pieces scale: he never even got into his bag of candy, so he was very engrossed. It picks up a lot of themes from the first movie and advances them along nicely, but left out some of my favorite stuff from the first movie. The plot was not as well summarized from the 2nd book as it was in the first. This plot kind of needs reading skills at times. And it is scarier than the first movie. Harry hit puberty somewhere during the course of the filming of the movie. If they shot these things in continuity, we would have known when. Ron Weasly and Hermonine (spelling) are almost there. The Kenneth Branaugh character was a waste and Richard Harris, Alan Rickman, and Maggie Smith had little to do in this movie. But the three kids carried off the movie nicely. The flying car thing lost a lot of context from page to screen. I think Peter O'Toole would make a great Dumbledore in the next film. Bottom line: kids in the theater were laughing. They loved it. Gage: little popcorn and no Reeses pieces, so he was very enthralled, he loved it. me: all my popcorn eaten and some of his, i was a tad bored. I won't see this one a second time as easily as we have seen other films more than once. But we will go again, that i know - he already knows my favorite 8 Mile track, insisted we play it over and over in the car, and that is the way to a poppa's heart. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:13:39 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: wagner njc Wally Kairuz wrote: > oh well. this is what happens when two opera buffs (do i dare to use the Q > word?) discuss opera. can't use the Q word because when I go, I am very GQ, almost unrecognizable - not the usual me. I love getting all studly and buff like that! > > i didn't mean to be flippant with my beethoven comment. thanks... > > love as always, and love back at you!! do you actually have Dame Gwyneth Jones on record/cd/8 track/cassette? I am impressed. I had it all on videotape but traded it for Elizabeth R, the bbc series. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:15:44 -0500 From: vince Subject: hey Julius NJC my replies to you have been bouncing back, so this private email is a public post about a private email that should have been a public post: Did I send my last response to you JUST to you or ALSO to the list? I kind of wanted it to go to the JMDL too but I think I forgot to do it - - so you can post it for me or send it back and I will post it -- you make me think, and Michael Yarbrough pointed out where he thought you had something to say to inform my ill formed opinions, and I had thought that before he said it, so now we all three agree. That is good, or it is scary. Thanks for your very kind reply that I replied to and probably failed to post to the list... If I did post to the list as well as to you this afternoon, send it back to me anyway because I lost it. But i really wanted it on the list... Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:17:50 EST From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Travelogue album edition issue >>Billy: how big are the images of the paintings displayed on the CD in terms of resolution? Are they full-screen? moni<< Hi Moni. Well, the CD 'gallery' is presented in a 'scrolling' format (rather than individual slides), and not really full-screen--partly because the prints are framed, much like the cover portrait. Still, it's very crisp and classy looking, and you have control options of scrolling left OR right - --and even holding a still frame--either with or without audio. And I should probably have made it clear earlier that this wonderful package is indeed included in all standard, US domestic versions of "Travelogue" (thankfully...), and is not a special edition in any way, shape or form. YESSSS ;-) XXXOOO, Billy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:18:34 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: wow, such judgement njc << Erica wrote: > What do flower children become when they grow-up? >> Wilted? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:48:02 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Joni live photos Thanks for posting these! My favorite is the third photograph. She looks stunning.....fresh and beautiful!! (this now adorns my desktop) (lovely dress..great colors) Bree >here are 3 photos from the concert: > >http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021114/170/2omgq.html > >http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021114/170/2omgr.html > >http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021114/170/2omey.html > >(please assemble the links into one line each) > > >moni _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:55:11 -0500 From: vince Subject: 2nd version Harry Potter redux, the njc review By the way, a movie is contained on a number of reels and the projectionist knows when to start the next projector when he/she sees a black or red spot in the upper right hand corner of the screen - first there is one spot, count to 10, the second spot, and hit the button on the next projector. The spots also generally signal a total sound and scene change, which is fun to spot in advance. And since a director has to end a scene on the second spot in a sequence, only 10 seconds to finish a scene after the first spot, because of the reel change, you can catch a bit of the pace and directors art by following the spots. Either a person can see those spots or they can't. They are designed to be unobtrusive but I can't miss them. Tried to show them to some people and they never saw them, thought I was making it up. I taught Gage how to spot the spots during Harry Potter tonight, and damn he caught on! He actually caught two before I did! More proof that he is my grandchild and will grow up to be as an obsessed fool with trivial knowledge as I am. But what the hell, it is fun him and I high fiving whenever we see the spots and having others in the audience wonder what in the world we are doing... Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:24:47 -0600 From: Rob Procyk & Tracy Tolley Subject: one more for memory lane njc Hi Again Gang, Ok, although I always live in the past and spend my life saying "Remember when...?", I really don't mean to do it here. However, I just had to say that I just opened my AOL IM which I rarely do, and was looking at my buddy list, which is full of these people I can't remember (this Tammy37Phoenix or whatever must be about 43 by now, whoever she is), but I just had to laugh when I saw "RMuRocks" in there -- took me a while to remember who the hell that was! Ahhh Bobby, you crazy ole bugger you! Oh, and I also have "Strummed" in there, which I remember was someone who was on the list at one time, but other than that, I can't remember anything else. Ok, that's memory lane for this evening -- I still have a week of digests to catch up on -- I meant to keep up, but my sick toddler has had other ideas! Love y'all, Evian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:27:19 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: LA Times Review of Stormy Weather II (njc) Jimmy wrote > AND good to see you back Ken. Talk about old timers :~) Yay Ken! It has been a looong time! Great to see you back. By the way, kids, Ken and Dulson have the honor of being in the first three or four, I believe, subscribers to the list back in the last century! We are talking the book of Genesis, here ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:32:41 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni live photos Moni, Thanks so much for the photo links! Kakki > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021114/170/2omgq.html > > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021114/170/2omgr.html > > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021114/170/2omey.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:37:14 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Cookbook Hi Maggie, > As for Kakki's observation that Joni's comment testifies to the > creativity and talent of the people on this list, I feel moved to add > that it isn't as if we don't get regular proof of that. We do, but it was a chance for Joni to see it, too. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:20:57 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: LA Times Review of Stormy Weather II (njc) > > AND good to see you back Ken. Talk about old timers :~) > > Yay Ken! It has been a looong time! Great to see you back. > > By the way, kids, Ken and Dulson have the honor of being in the first three > or four, I believe, subscribers to the list back in the last century! We > are talking the book of Genesis, here ;-) > > Kakki > And the 3 of you along with Phyliss Ward, Lori Fye, Clark, Paz and a few others were the first JMDL people I met. That LA crowd are great people! Ken, I still remember fondly our drive to Long Beach that night. Nice to see you back. Mark E in Seattle PS: Anyone ever hear anything from Leslie Mixon? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 00:29:57 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: njc a patient attitude >Jeff quotes Franklin> Hey Jeff, kudos for your investigative savvy. >Even I DIDN'T know I was listed on that "special thanks" section. >(LOL) > >My pleasure, Franklin. From the moment you stepped into this discussion >list, I sensed a change in the air. A bit like old One Eye in White Fang; >muzzle up, tail stiffened, not satisfied, and striving to understand the >message born upon that air. >Franklin> The self-induced, paranoid, threatened variety perhaps? >Sigh - I guess every "open" discussion reveals those who >uncontrollably suffer the "muzzle up, tail stiffened, not satisfied >and striving to understand the message born upon that air" syndrome: >members who voluntarily "police" it, cavaliarly brandishing their >badge at the naieve, the unwary, the innocent. As you apparently >inhabit that self-appointed, self-sanctified position, all I can say >is - "are we having fun yet?" Then again, upon more solemn >contemplation regarding your above statement - it could indicate a >serious sexual problem??? Don't worry - I have absolutely NO >interest in your medical records (BTY, did you manage to locate mine >along the way?) > >Franklin> Upon further inquiry (I e-mailed the contact button at > >http://www.reconcilerecords.com) I discovered my hitherto unbeknownst >>"honor", buried in the back and immediately sent an inquiry (via their >>"contact" button as to WHY?) > >Jeff>Great. I too have been trying to learn more about Reconcile >Records but I just can't seem to locate them. Oh well, must be me. >Franklin> My mistake there, Jeff (but then again, with your >extraordinary intuitive investigative gifts, you must have surely >deduced that as a mistake on my part. After all, the name Reconcile >Records is also prominently displayed on the site. Once again, >kudos, that's the job of all self-appointed vigilanttes: to overlook >the obvious in search of accidental, meaningless mistakes, in order >to "trump up" charges against anyone you personally deem "unwelcome" >on "your" turf. How predictable. I meant http:www.lacowboy.com >which I and others I know obviously "consider" the Reconcile Records >site. That's what their e-mail replies to me state. You're right on >top of everything again - except, OF COURSE, the music in question. >hmmmmmmmm, are you sure that you're in at this party for the MUSIC, >or are you perpetually "on duty" (for only God knows what)? Lighten >up, even "street-beaters" have to "party" sometimes. Otherwise the >pressure just gets to be too much, as your "threads" so blatently >indicate. A lot of burn-out in that industry, as I recall viewing >on some late night documentary dealing with such. >And from "Sue Stark" (label manager): >>"Due to the fact that we would have never had contact with him, or acquired >>this lovely site if it hadn't been for your sharing spirit, we added your >>name as an afterthought at the bottom of the "special thanks". Thought he >>would have told you... Sorry for the surprise and if you do not want it >>there, we will have it removed. You and those like you prove that this is > >a small world, and often smaller proves better." > >Jeff>Isn't that the truth, Franklin? Franklin> Are you asking,implying, or stating??? If it perchance be the latter, who am I to disagree with an "authority" figure as impervious to the thoughts and feelings of others as yourself? Why bore you with any of MY questions? Then again, if they concern YOU, it might keep the door open to your favorite topic - yourself. > >Now my question to you would be - as a savvy Internet "map" traveler, >>obviously intrigued enough to thoroughly investigate the "official" L.A. >>Cowboy site, did you hopefully fulfill your (presumably) initial intention >>and visit long enough to savor his unusual,(brilliant really) "quotes" >>page? Did you read any of his magnificent poetry, listen to his unique >>world-class music? > >Jeff>Damn, you are certainly no chump. 'Presumably' sure says it >perfectly. How did you know I had so little interest in la cowboy? >Nope, it was you, >Franklin. So much to say and so many selfless plugs of an 'obscure' artist, >I just had to get to know you better. Franklin> Just an educated guess. Your last e-mail didn't strike me as having any particular air of one who seeks to adventure too far from their own pre-conceptions of new, different people, particularly anyone potentially engaging. In other words, your "acceptance" quotient obviously isn't quite as large as your unbridled ego It was just a small step to apply that to all things unfamiliar to you - new art, no doubt,in particular. As for your last line above: It actually has me bursting into song "Getting to know you, getting to know all about you. Getting to show you, getting to show that I care". Hey! Congratulations... you've actually steered me BACK to the initial topic in question: MUSIC... remember? Oh,oh. Sorry, I forgot - as I'm getting to know "you" that's not a topic you're particularly interested in. (a TIP: keep your eyes open. There are plenty of other's giving "many selfless plugs" for "obscure" artists (presumably meritorious in the opinions of those proffered). You'll find other souls to assault here all day long!! You'll have a field day, if you just keep your "one-eyed, muzzle upped, tail stiffened dissatisfaction" going... something tells me that will be NO problem, if you catch my drift.) > >Just understandably curious - as you made absolutely NO remarks - positive, >>negative or otherwise regarding my artistic recommendations. Perhaps you >>were so excited and enamored to find my name buried at the back of the site >>under that of my acquaintance, Brooke, who built it, that you totally >>forgot the reason for the visit. If that be the case, I recommend you >>reevaluate your initial intentions and re-proceed upon the quest with a >>renewed vigor to investigate the artist in question, as assumedly your >>investigation of me is now concluded. I do believe that WAS your initial >>intention - to explore the artistry of L.A. Cowboy - wasn't it? > >No. It wasn't.But what a loser I would be if I didn't learn >something along the fetid way. I sludged through that wellspring of >wit and lo and behold found a few so telling I am compelled to share: > >"Lies, >by definition >are manipulation, >my dear." Now where did I see that 'my dear' before ...? >Franklin: Hmmmm, a letter from your mother? A Walt Disney movie? >(Mary Poppins comes to mind). Some polite soul who uses common >English? Written on your bathroom mirror? Anyone responding to your >agitated, self-important spirit in a polite, charitable fashion? >You've got me there. I use that common, endearing salutation myself >sometimes. It could hardly be construed as "plagurism". But then >again, to a voluntary "security guard"??? What is your point, my >dear? Oh, I almost forgot, you're fishing without a liscense using >cheap bait. >"The seventh-day Sabbath of the scriptures is the appointed >foundation of all Divine worship." Thanks. I was never able to >quite clear this wicket. >Franklin> Am I supposed to act surprised? Although the comment in >question is hardly ground-breaking, it is stated rather eloquently, >don't you think? Do you think? I don't know - read Genesis 1 >(providing the Bible doesn't offend you.) Ask any Jew (providing >they also don't offend you). BTY, which wicket was it that you >hadn't previously been able to clear, "the seventh-day Sabbath" or >"Divine worship". You really attempt to be less abstract with your >insults - hardly commendable for such an "expert". >"The modern so-called gift of 'speaking in tongues', >is merely a self-stimulating form of spiritual masturbation." >Overlook the redundancy, this one bears repeating. Franklin> Which you have,in your own marvelous manner, again redunded. Perhaps you've finally found your expertise - at least it appears so. BTY, I'll bet you could add to that list, referring to "self-stimulating forms of spiritual masturbation" I mean. Just an "educated" guess, mind you. > >"My songs are >miniature quote books." Indeed. Franklin> So you DID find a treasure-trove of great, singly-significant lines (as Joni and a few other artists are so well known for) amidst those poetic lyrics!! Finally gaining some ground here. Whew...one of the very reasons I recommended L.A. Cowboy to my Joni-enjoying clan in the first place!! Hmmm, maybe I've been unfairly jumping to conclusions regarding your cognitive capabilities after all. Apologies in order??? Hmmmmmm, I'll have to think about that one. > >"A fake is generally devoid >of arrogance...like it or not." I have my doubts. Franklin> Oh don't take it so personally Jeff. But then again (???), doubts are often symptoms one would be self-deceiving to avoid. Perhaps that's why so many avoid them - would you care to weigh in with your own "expert" opinion on this one further? If it means anything to you, regardless of one "quote" (the best are often still just opinions, after all), I still consider you arrogant. There, does that make you feel any better? You've taught me something!! While I understand the above "quote" in conception, there are obviously "exceptions to every rule", whoever said that. You've proven an age-old, overlooked axiom, all by yourself. Congratulations in order! But wait, I've accidently jumped the gun _ (not yours,BTY). Upon further reflection, I think I agree totally with that statement. Your attempts at being arrogant ARE failing "like it or not". So solly. >"He who does not >enjoy his own company >is usually right." Ziggy? Franklin> Missed that one. Is that a friend or just a personal nickname? >"If I didnt waste my time >thinking, Id spend my time talking" Or writing. >Franklin> Not a bad additional caveat, in your case. I find it >fascinating when people add to other's qoutes, comments. Kind of >like making your own words up to a well-love song, personalizing it. >I'll hand that to you, you do appear to enjoy writing... but then >again so do many on this list. (PERSONAL TIP, once uttered by a >well-known editor to a fledgling wannabe: -" don't waste my time >with anymore mere self-gratifying words. Remember, to some of the >public, content actually counts.") >"Modern ecumenicism - the setting aside of doctrinal differences >in the name of "christian" unity -is, in essence,a form of spiritual >homosexuality: like attracting like. YIKES! (or is it YUCK ?!)" > >Yeah, that man to man stuff is pretty wicked, huh? Now where did I see that >'yikes' before...? Franklin> Man to man, if you say so... you're the expert on all things... remember? Let me see; about that commonly used term (at least in Minnesota) - yikes: Where and in how many ways could you have possibly heard/read it in your short life: from Yosemite Sam? Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora? Pat Conroy in his Village Voice interview? Anyone having suffered through your unexpected, uninvited, unappreciated, self-appointed "scrutiny"? Perhaps even Joni channeling her thoughts while reading your unprovoked (let's not forget unprovocative either) assaults on this list? >"Hey I'm just a broke 'rascal' but most chicks dig it anyway...What >can I say?" What CAN you say? Franklin> What do you want ME to say? Your "projections" (psychological term) are getting a bit personal here but what the hell, most busy-bodies do, so I'll "humor" you - just this once, mind you! I'm afraid that although I personally, as an artistic civilian, might not have experienced the "chick magnet" charisma that many a poet and singer/songwriter enjoy, I've had my share of love and affection from those I find appealing. I can understand the much larger phenomenon surrounding any celebrity, and even the occasionaltrue artist, including L.A. Cowboy; if I were to want to spend (waste) my time sitting around pondering it that is. But if that's your thing? I prefer to dwell on different subjects, like music that moves my soul. I can say that at least I'm by no means broke - although, once again, my bank account is also off limits. Alas, you no doubt have already verified that somehow, you tail-stiffened, muzzle up ol' snoop dog you - so I'll just accept your bizarre sarcasm as ANOTHER personal "dig". (Tip: I sense if you addressed me in person, you'd be far more polite. In fact I'd virtually guarantee it. Hint: stuttering counts as politeness when meeting certain individuals. Now that would be entertaining to witness.) >"The epitome of an oxymoron: >"rap music"" Perfect. Let me forward this to a couple of JMDLers. Franklin> We agree, wow! I understood that one myself. I'm certain you know JUST who to forward it to. (Why can I envision you just rubbing your sweaty palms together in unabashed glee, you poor, bored...whatever) Let me guess, anyone who you can attempt to recruit to ride along on your attempted "reign" of relentlessly self-satisfying, bloody, back-alley social "abortions". >"There is nothing quite so pathetic as a failed attempt at creativity." >You sly dog you! This is exactly what I need for the third grade class >tomorrow. They were struggling today with colors in a sky and I was lazily >content with 'loser'. Franklin> Me sly..? I'm afraid neither of us can claim that description - though God knows, you try. And as for your implication that I agree with that particular quote (although I think I can capture the attempted conveyance - as I'm quite sure Joni would, judging from her recent public weigh-ins concerning "artists" of questionable talent - you go lady!)...BUT WAIT... what else am I reading here? OMG - I'm holding court with a third grader??? JM's admirers certainly DO span the spectrum of age that defies time and defines timelessness... BTY, my regard for your vocabulary has just escalated - - although it troubles me that someone so young would have such a bitter, insensitive, jaded and impertinent spirit. Do your parents know that you're on the Internet conducting yourself in such a brash manner? I'll assume not, as they would hopefully immediately, conscientiously curtail such activity. Then again, I don't know your familial circumstances: product of divorce? Orphan? One thing I do know is that the "apple doesn't fall to far from the tree" (I'm not sure who to attribute that too - is that acceptable? I did include quotes ;)). I can only hope that your influences in the future prove more positive. Otherwise I'm afraid you will have to remain "lazily content with 'loser'". I wouldn't take that above quote to personally kiddo. I interpreted it as referring to the sometimes abysmal results attributed to "adults". But then again, that was just my initial interpretation. As far as your current, ambivalent self-image: That's ok, I tend to accept people where they are - as if that isn't already obvious to everyone following my patience in dealing with your unfortunately pitiable pathology(s?) >"I'm just another artist, with inordinate feelings >to go along with my inordinate obsessions for creating creations." > >Jeff Sublime. Franklin> I'm not sure we necessarily agree there. But then again, as I read the introduction to that "quote" page, it stated something like, "quotes, quips, meanderings generally attributed to the Cowboy." You'll forgive the paraphrase - oh wait, I forgot the kind of spirit I'm dealing with - of course you won't. So what! >"I hate to sound pretentious: but wait.......... >I AM pretentious." Humbly pretentious. Franklin> I can understand that "quip". An artist of his obvious abilities. I don't think that attitude is uncommon among artists/writers/poets (Oscar Wilde comes to mind). But back to your own small (very small, I might add) contribution: Now there's an oxymoron (humbly pretentious) if I ever heard one, and since you give no attribution, credit is certainly due to you, so let's not be modest here!! Makes sense to me. I, for one, won't question the authenticity of your fledgling attempts at originality. WOW, just think of it!! Now, YOU can start your own "guotes" page. I know it's only one quote, but hey - one little step at a time. One that in time will certainly (in your eyes at least, and that's all that matters to you - provide some, no doubt, extraordinary personal value). What perplexes me, is that among an obvious large and varied mixture and stream of thoughts and sayings (the "quotes" page in question) that you would "cherry pick" some of the less meaningful meanderings to dwell on while I personally found so many beautiful insights into art, life, love, creativity there that I, and certainly you might actually benefit from. Oh, wait... what am I saying??? It DOES make sense, total sense. If you shared anything profound or meaningful from anybody who someone else recommended, that might take the "light" off YOU). FORGIVE me my momentary slip of cognizance. (TIP: ask mommy and daddy what "forgiveness" is, then forgive them. I assure you, you need to - finally. It will change your attitude, bitterness, self-centeredness (well, that's a pretty TALL order. Let's just say it would certainly constitute a B-I-G start). > >Of course if you continue to be perplexed, paralyzed by your inadvertently >>"remarkable" discovery, you could always e-mail Reconcile Records (although >>they might find such an inquiry rather bizarre - who knows, they've been >>quite charitable in answering MY occasional correspondence/questions.) >>Otherwise, I'll gently point you back to the issue at hand: seeking to >>personally verify a fellow JMDL's opinions regarding the prosodic treasures >>I've discovered and so considerately (I hope), enthusiastically shared, >>possibly benefiting from exposure to an artist that you too might find >>extraordinary. I do believe that this is why we are all inevitably here: to >>share our love and joy of tasteful,inspiring music. That said, I truly >>hope you get back on the original trail. The artistic investigation - >>remember? Go for it Sherlock!! > >Thanks Franklin. Your genuine benevolence is a ray of light in these >conspiratorial days. If only I weren't overloaded with coffee mugs... Franklin> Although I'm somewhat taken aback, I truly appreciate your recognition of "genuine benevolence", it's rather surprising that you can identify such attributes, actually. Overloaded with coffee mugs, eh? Are you sure it's only coffee you're puttin' there??? Hey, wait just a minute!! Kids aren't supposed to be drinking coffee anyway. Didn't anyone ever tell you it stunts your growth? (rhetorical question) Perhaps you should attempt to make some friends. I know, that's a tough one. Just start by sharing your toys, listening to other's thoughts and feelings, and not becoming jealous, envious or angry when they don't seem to be giving you all the attention, or levy occasional enthusiastic suggestions, the lack of grasp which triggers those 'lazily' horrible feelings of inadequacy. > >P.S. Although I'm not all that "special", I am rather reserved: That > >being the case, I hope you will understand my hesitancy in releasing my >>social security number, credit reports, police record (no felonies, mostly >>speeding tickets etc.) or rulings regarding my divorce proceedings > >(nothing to scandalous - just a bit too sad and personal), particularly as >>I don't necessarily deduce their relevancy regarding this probatively >>resolved situation. (wink, smirk, smile) > >And I wouldn't rap your gavel just yet... Franklin> Well considering your latest self-stimulating attempt at Internet grandstanding (at the expense of another of course - the cheapest variety) I just might risk it. "RAP! RAP! RAP! Let's have some order in this court. And counsel - kindly refrain from any further disruptions. You're not only doing your client (yourself in this particular, peculiar case) but this courtroom a great disservice. I must insist that you refrain from any further distractions". Remember Jeff? MUSIC, the one topic you've steadfastly avoided during your entire charade thus far (not that I mind a good charade occasionally, but I personally find poorly conceived, trite and mean-spirited ones to be embarrassingly (in your case) wearying, boring, monotonous and, frankly blaaze). Best you get off to bed. School tomorrow you know... but wait - it's the weekend... oh shit! Franklin NP Mary Poppins Soundtrack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 01:37:05 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Chinese Cafe Well, I hadn't loved the initial Travelogue selections at the Nonesuch site, but damn!!! Maybe it's the November dreariness or this lingering, stubborn depression I've been grappling with, but Chinese Cafe caused me to weep. Joni's voice is so appropriate, and just jammed with emotion and melancholy. It's just unbelievable how each phrase is packed with emotion. "where does the time go" "I bore her, but I could not raise her" Wonder what it was like for Joni to sing that lyric knowing that now everyone knows the story? It's a great song for her to revisit at this stage since she was 40 or so when she wrote it, right? The phrasing seems right on this one cuz the lyrics have a more succinct structure--she can pack a punch with every phrase! What kind of bugged me about, say Amelia, was that her short punch-packed phrasings would come five or six times before the lyrical line's message was over. Compare "Nothing lasts for long" (a complete concept) to "it's so hard to obey his sad request of me to kindly stay away." Her phrasing on Amelia, IMHO, was so emotive with every three or four words that it started to feel a little forced to me. But, with Chinese Cafe, it is golden! I really enjoyed Hejira the other day, too-the percussion was perfect. Have any other listers who weren't thrilled at first come to change their minds? I'm curious. Can't wait till Tuesday Ken ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 06:50:17 +0000 From: colin Subject: john sickNJC I 've had a nasty fright this morning at about 4am. John woke me up and asked me to call a dr. In the 21 years we have been together he has never asked for a dr (and the only time we have been was to the hospital after the Haagen Daz incident.). He said he couldn't breathe and the left of his chest hurt. Now when i picked him up from the station earlier this evening, i knew he looked ill. he has just come back from Delhi. I kept as cool as cucumber but was shitting myself inside when i called the dr. It turns out he has a chest infection and has been given antibios and an inhaler. I am scared and hope this is all it is. He went to India at very short notice and has been working non stop since his return. The thought of John being ill terrifies me. He never has been and I couldn't see him suffer. We have our Danish friend here and in an hour we are supposed to be going to Harvey's first show. Obviously, I am not going so Marianne will take Harvey on her own. She took him outside without me and he showed for her so maybe he will at the show. Funny how things work out. So send your best thoughts out for John please. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 01:58:58 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: RE: What Nonesuch Records is trying to say....NJC If my dictionary had said what yours said, I would NOT have associated it with you or any of my friends. I didn't know what the word meant so I looked it up. Based on the web site, the birth-mother's regret angle was my association. My definition came from an online, free dictionary and yours came from the scholary Oxford family. Naturally, I'll defer to the Oxford definition and withdraw from the hurtful and un-intended connotation it conjurs. Hurting wasn't my intent. I've reformed. :) Lama From: Mags N Brei [mailto:magsnbrei@yahoo.com] > Provoked, yep. Indeed it did provoke me (to post). Just didnt know what you were getting at. According to my Oxford, remorse:1.bitter regret for wrong committed. now that's a loaded definition if I ever saw one. And just to clarify Lama, Im not bitter. And yes, just as she wrote: sometimes there'll be sorrow. (that's a given). > "Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama)" wrote: >> I have to admit I looked up the word "pentinent". Isn't "PENITENT OF THE SPIRIT" the phrase that she prefers to the phrase "confessional poet"? "Pentinent" isn't in my 39 year-old, thumb-indexed, "Webster's Seventh New Collegaitae Dictionary". Maybe I should spring for the Eighth edition? :) Alarmingly, www.dictionary.com had "Feeling or expressing remorse for one's misdeeds or sins." Is my dusty but treasured dictionary ready for the dustbin? I think NOT! It sounds like Joni's chanelling for Mags Holden-Gross with this title. But of course, we aren't looking forward to buying "Swan Song" or "A Travelogue" on Novemeber 19th so Joni's proven to be somewhat malleable on titles in the past. I think "(w/t)" might mean "working title". Can I get an expert opinion on that? ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #494 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)