From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #493 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, November 15 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 493 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Travelogue album edition issue ["Moni Kellermann" ] Joni live photos ["Moni Kellermann" ] Re: thinking of women NJC ["mack watson-bush" ] RE: Cookbook ["Maggie McNally" ] the cookbook, STILL! ["Cynthia Vickery" ] Swingin' Travelogue ["Kate Bennett" ] Speaking of presents for Joni ... ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Whose breasts are they anyway? ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Whose breasts are they anyway? [Ken Corral ] Re: whores NJC ["Erica L. Trudelle" ] Re: wow, such judgement njc ["Erica L. Trudelle" ] Re: wow, such judgement njc ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Speaking of presents for Joni ...(NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] Re: whores NJC ["mack watson-bush" ] wagner ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Whose breasts are they anyway? ["RSM" ] Re: Travelogue album edition issue ["Moni Kellermann" ] Re: Whose breasts are they anyway? [dsk ] Re: whores NJC ["Erica L. Trudelle" ] Re: thinking of women NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: wow, such judgement njc ["Erica L. Trudelle" ] Re: whores NJC ["mack watson-bush" ] RE: wow, such judgement njc ["Heather" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:08:48 +0100 From: "Moni Kellermann" Subject: Re: Travelogue album edition issue - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Dollinger" > What Rolling STone interview? The one in the October 2002 issue > are you referring to the W Magazine interview? no. moni ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:11:58 +0100 From: "Moni Kellermann" Subject: Joni live photos here are 3 photos from the concert: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021114/170/2omgq.html http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021114/170/2omgr.html http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021114/170/2omey.html (please assemble the links into one line each) moni ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:24:13 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: thinking of women NJC Colin wrote: > be called a 'girl' is a deep insult. > Stupid and sad. Can remember being called a sissy while a young boy. When I figured out what they were talking about, I made the conscience effort to correct the problem and by high school I had done so, to the point of the name callers knowing that if they had the guts to say it, then they would have the punch to feel as well. These days, much the same thing. Say those things to me at your own risk. As for society in general, they ain't ever gonna get it. And most will not try. Time to stop caring and asking for permission. They can move over and allow us our place or we will take it. It can be easy or hard, depending on what they want. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:19:00 -0500 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: njc pritchard vs eminem ...i can assure you that he wore a white sleeveless cotton top and a white woolen hat with the nike swoosh over what seems to be a black baseball cap. In the photo I can't see his trousers or trainers. " A double hat! Thank you! Now was that a regular length cotton top, or the extra long length? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:27:00 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Travelogue Travelogue is the 96th best selling cd this week on Amazon.com. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:36:34 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: Cookbook I, too, was "somewhat present" at that Jonifest (no cracks from Paz, please) and will attest that the cookbook is one that deserves greater distribution. But I forget why that didn't happen. Did Marian and Jerry and the others for whom it was a labor of love just burn out? Too many lost little gray cells - please refresh my memory. As for Kakki's observation that Joni's comment testifies to the creativity and talent of the people on this list, I feel moved to add that it isn't as if we don't get regular proof of that. On this list, on disc, in person at Fests and informal gatherings - time and time again I am blown away by the intelligence of this community, as well as the humor that many of our members bring to their wry observations of life and love. Add to that the passion, the caring and the positive spirit that so many members bring to living and you have a positively addictive mix. By golly, I'm high as I write this! Maggie McNally NP: Jonifest 2001: Chuck E., Trouble Child > -----Original Message----- > From: kakki [mailto:kakkib@vzavenue.net] > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 12:28 AM > To: Jerry Notaro; AsharaJM@aol.com > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Cookbook > > > Jerry wrote: > > > Yes she did, though we never did get it printed up for mass > distribution. > BUT, I > > do still have it and the cover electronically and will send > it out to > anyone who > > asks. Just don't ask for any more revisions. Those are done! > > I still wish we could do a mass distribution of it. Jerry - > even though I > was somewhat (lol) present at the J-Fest where some multiple special > editions were given by Marian, I never got to see them! I > would love to see > a pic of the cover if you can email it. I've told the story > before so sorry > for the redundancy - but for newer listers - when I saw Joni > at her '99 > painting exhibit in L.A. ALL she wanted to talk about was > that cookbook. > She absolutely loved it. People around us were changing the > subject but she > kept going back to the cookbook and the bios (very clever and > funny) that we > sent along with it. The best part of all was an interview > published a few > months later where she mentioned the cookbook from her > "internet people" > most glowingly ;-) She really loved it - a testament to the > creativity and > talent of the people here. > > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:00:18 -0600 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: the cookbook, STILL! in case i didn't make myself clear..... (which clearly i didn't!!).... i'm willing to print, bind and distribute a hard copy of the cookbook (complete with snazzy laminated covers to be manufactured by resident assistant techno-wizard lori fye) to whoever is interested. all you need to do is just send me an email with your address and all that stuff, and i'll get the thing out to you asap. you don't even have to guess a joni song. cindy (if you just want the electronic version, i've got that, too, of course.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:23:48 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Swingin' Travelogue "It seems to me that the difference between a boring and a non-boring music delivery has to do with where the beat is in relation to the rest. And isn't that also the definition of swing/groove? I can't express clearly concepts I don't master, but in essence this would mean that without a heartbeat music is "dead"." laruent, i see what you are saying...far as i know swing describes jazz & groove describes a bunch of other genres...anyway my original point was that the reviewer was disappointed that joni's songs did not swing which i thought was silly because i would not expect that of a full orchestra arrangement... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:28:50 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Speaking of presents for Joni ... Joni will turn 60 next November. Quite a milestone, or maybe it should be referred to as a gemstone. In anniversary terms, it's the "diamond" year. I realize it's a bit early, and with all the discussion about T'log this may get lost in the shuffle, but ... Perhaps we might start tossing around ideas NOW as to what kind of special gift and/or celebration we can put together for November 7, 2003? Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:45:47 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Whose breasts are they anyway? Gee, It's nice to see a subject I can get my hands on, after all the politics... :) Lamadama wrote: >I know boobs when I see 'em and there are two! Did we ever resolve whether >it's a model or uhmmm... the artist herself? Actually, we have discussed this - some dedicated archive surfer might be able to find the posts. My contention is that the person on the cover of DJRD is...er...somewhat more endowed than our Siquomb. I base this on the red evening gown she was wearing, braless, at the '74 Universal Ampitheatre concert. I can dig out my photos (I was seated stage left) if you like. (Also pleased to see Ken C. back!) - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:48:07 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Whose breasts are they anyway? > I base this on the red evening gown she was wearing, > braless, at the '74 Universal Ampitheatre concert. I can dig > out my photos (I was seated stage left) if you like. Yes, please!!!! : ) Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:49:27 -0500 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: Speaking of presents for Joni ... Perhaps we might start tossing around ideas NOW as to what kind of special gift and/or celebration we can put together for November 7, 2003? An anger management course with a note that when you are in the Rock and Roll of Fame, make the #10 (top 5?) of every list that counts, have received Grammys and ASCAP awards, TNT tributes, jazz tributes, and have such adoring fans as us, that you are not UNDER appreciated. Most artists would die for that type of recognition. Vince, ducking from the flack that will cvome my way ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:56:33 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Travelogue format Hi List -- There's been a question about the format of Travelogue, so I asked Nonesuch. Here's the good news: Dear David, Yes indeed, Travelogue is an enhanced CD, containing a gallery of Joni's artwork. Thanks for writing & best regards, Sam Lambert Nonesuch Records Best, David http://www.davidmarine.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:11:22 -0800 From: Ken Corral Subject: Re: Whose breasts are they anyway? Steve Dulson wrote: > > (Also pleased to see Ken C. back!) > -- > ######################################################## Ah Steve, thank you --- I see you're still as gracious as ever. ======================== Ken Corral http://www.kencorral.com ======================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:07:22 -0500 From: "Erica L. Trudelle" Subject: Re: whores NJC Yes, I am sure all over the world that "sex workers" dress in all different ways...So because of that fact she doesn't look like a whore? Christina Agularia knows what she's doing, she's making alot of $$$, if dressing up like a penguin and tap dancing brought home the bacon, she'd be doing that. I'm just saying she is doing everything short of wearing only dental floss to SELL herself. Now if this is just a discussion about defining "whore" it's pointless, I know there are whores that probably wear 3 piece suits. Is her image more important than the music? If we went back in time 30 years with no MTV around would this girl ever make it? I'm just frustrated with the fact that musical talent is taking a back seat to T and A like it never has before. Have youu seen her latest video? Sorry I'm rambling now....... Hey she's a genie in a bottle, you gotta rub her the right way. Erica Oh and I've always thought Jim Morrison was a man whore, I love the Doors but I still think that..... From: Yael Harlap Reply-To: Yael Harlap To: joni@smoe.org Subject: whores NJC Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:00:20 -0500 Erica wrote: >Christina Agularia LOOKS like a whore, no one can deny it, of couse >she isn't a whore, but she has to know what type of visual image she's >sending with the videos and photo shoots. They aren't tastefully done, >she's >obviously selling her sexuality. i'm sure sex workers look all sorts of different ways, depending on their cultural background and their clientele. i'm too tired to say anything else about that right now. but i'm sure someone else will. :) - -yael _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:15:07 -0500 From: "Erica L. Trudelle" Subject: Re: wow, such judgement njc Mack wrote: When initially came here figured this was a land of grownup flower children. All this talk of sluts, whores, and bimbos has me thinking what kind of judgement is this? What do flower children become when they grow-up? George W. as been called worse names here......it's all about us & them isn't it? Erica _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:23:36 EST From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Travelogue album edition issue >>I've seen three separate editions online. One plain 2 cd, one with special booklet, and one with enhanced cd.<< Jerry Crawling out of lurkdom for now---I think they're all one and the same, Jerry. Just got my advance copy today, and the package is spectacular! The domestic, US version has a complete, cardboard outer-case, with a 'hardbound' book (er, travelogue) inside, which holds the disc's and features a 28 page, glossy booklet of quotes, credits and mostly paintings (including a rather scornful looking one of George Dubya, btw). Then, there's a additional booklet entirely of lyrics. Disc 1 also has 'enhanced' cd-rom features, including a virtual gallery of Joni's own paintings that you're gonna love... XXXOOO, Billy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:33:22 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Travelogue album edition issue Thanks, Billy. I got the advance version which has not booklet or enhanced cd. I went to one of my favorite sites for preordering and the 3 copies available had 3 separate descriptions, thus my misunderstanding. Glad to hear they are all "deluxe!" Jerry Wtking59@cs.com wrote: > >>I've seen three separate editions online. One plain 2 cd, one with special > booklet, and one with enhanced cd.<< > > Jerry > > Crawling out of lurkdom for now---I think they're all one and the same, Jerry. > > Just got my advance copy today, and the package is spectacular! > The domestic, US version has a complete, cardboard outer-case, with a > 'hardbound' book (er, travelogue) inside, which holds the disc's and features > a 28 page, glossy booklet of quotes, credits and mostly paintings (including > a rather scornful looking one of George Dubya, btw). > Then, there's a additional booklet entirely of lyrics. > > Disc 1 also has 'enhanced' cd-rom features, including a virtual gallery of > Joni's own paintings that you're gonna love... > > XXXOOO, > Billy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:37:19 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Speaking of presents for Joni ...(NJC) Lori writes: > Perhaps we might start tossing around ideas NOW as to what kind of > special gift and/or celebration we can put together for November 7, > 2003? > We could ask her if she was on a desert island, what 5 jmdlers she'd like to take with her :~) ........... Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:44:58 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Whose breasts are they anyway? Steve Dulson wrote: > > Actually, we have discussed this - some dedicated archive surfer > might be able to find the posts. My contention is that the person > on the cover of DJRD is...er...somewhat more endowed than our > Siquomb. That was my first thought, too, based on the swimming pool picture and the ones of her in the desert. And, to veer even more toward the indelicate... our Siquomb is a natural blonde, yes? and the figure on the dress isn't. I vaguely recognize the figure from some painting, but can't pinpoint or find which one. It's never struck me as sexy even though it is nude. Joni's liveliness in that photo is much more appealing to me. And thanks to Bree (I think) for pointing out that the way the figure is holding her arms is similar to the way Joni has been photographed. Interesting. I still don't think the nude figure is Joni, but there may have been some unconscious copying going on in the photos. Maybe it's a painting Joni really loves. Now that I'm looking closely at the cover, what's with all those big-eared cartoon images? Doves I can understand, a nude "art" figure makes sense, too, but mickey mouse??? Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:55:02 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: wow, such judgement njc Erica wrote: > What do flower children become when they grow-up? Good question. > George W. as been called worse names here......it's all about us & them > isn't it? Suppose that depends on who is doing the thinking? mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:55:07 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: whores NJC Erica wrote: > Christina Agularia LOOKS like a whore, no one can deny it, of couse > she isn't a whore, but she has to know what type of visual image she's > sending with the videos and photo shoots. They aren't tastefully done, > she's obviously selling her sexuality. Yael replied: > i'm sure sex workers look all sorts of different ways, depending on > their cultural background and their clientele. Erica then responded: > Yes, I am sure all over the world that "sex workers" dress in all > different ways...So because of that fact she doesn't look like a > whore? "High class" hookers and escorts "dress up" to their clients' expectations, especially so they can be seen in public with a john and not attract unwanted attention. And cultural background has a great deal to do with the way women dress, regardless of their line of work. However, it seems that it's predominantly Americans who complain that a woman "looks" or "dresses" like a whore. Which is so typical, given our Puritan roots that never ever seem to diminish. I have a friend, a woman from Caracas, Venezuela who is in the U.S. to attain her MBA, who consistently dresses in a manner that probably 98% of Americans consider as too provacative. She wears tight clothing most days, and on casual Friday she sometimes exposes some midrift skin - horrors! She's 33, drop-dead gorgeous, and eats like she has a tapeworm but works out every day to maintain a VERY nice body. At her former place of work, men occasionally asked to be transferred away from her department (Accounting) because they found her too distracting to work around. However, this woman is SO beautiful and SO intelligent and SO witty that I would find her distracting to work around if she were wearing a burlap sack and blown-out sneakers. She and I have talked about the way she dresses, about the American idea of what's appropriate to wear at work and elsewhere, and she refuses to change her style. For one thing, she says, she has already "toned it down" compared to what other women in Caracas wear. For another, she says she's comfortable in her clothing, and that's important to her. I think she's right, and I think American standards are ridiculously uptight. Americans run around slapping the label "whore" on any woman who makes them FEEL "uncomfortable" (read: arouses them, especially when they're not prepared to be aroused), when what's probably going on most of the time is that they WISH she were a whore. The American double standard for women vs. men is so obvious and annoying. Women had better "dress down" so they aren't perceived to be sluts, yet it's okay for a guy to run around with his shirt open just enough to show the top of his hairy chest, or in a pair of pants that clearly shows the outline of his dick. Those things can also be perceived as sexy and distracting - or not. And that's the point of my post: it's all in the eye of the beholder. To those who are uncomfortable with the way other adults dress (as opposed to teenagers - and yes I realize that Britney, Christina, Ricky and others influence the way teens, especially young teens, want to dress, but that's a different discussion), I say: Get over it, and let people dress as they want and be themselves, without all this judgment. Lori ~ Christina > Agularia knows what she's doing, she's making alot of $$$, if dressing up > like a penguin and tap dancing brought home the bacon, she'd be doing that. > I'm just saying she is doing everything short of wearing only dental floss > to SELL herself. Now if this is just a discussion about defining "whore" > it's pointless, I know there are whores that probably wear 3 piece suits. Is > her image more important than the music? If we went back in time 30 years > with no MTV around would this girl ever make it? I'm just frustrated with > the fact that musical talent is taking a back seat to T and A like it never > has before. Have youu seen her latest video? Sorry I'm rambling now....... > > Hey she's a genie in a bottle, you gotta rub her the right way. > > Erica > Oh and I've always thought Jim Morrison was a man whore, I love the Doors > but I still think that..... > > > > > > > From: Yael Harlap > Reply-To: Yael Harlap > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: whores NJC > Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:00:20 -0500 > > Erica wrote: > >Christina Agularia LOOKS like a whore, no one can deny it, of couse > >she isn't a whore, but she has to know what type of visual image she's > >sending with the videos and photo shoots. They aren't tastefully done, > >she's > >obviously selling her sexuality. > > i'm sure sex workers look all sorts of different ways, depending on their > cultural background and their clientele. > > i'm too tired to say anything else about that right now. > but i'm sure someone else will. :) > > -yael > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > ~ http://lrfye.lunarpages.com ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:56:15 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Speaking of presents for Joni ...(NJC) > We could ask her if she was on a desert island, what 5 jmdlers she'd > like to take with her :~) ........... Me, myself, I ... and two others?? Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:57:55 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: whores NJC All that, and I misspelled "provocative." Sheesh. : ) Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:07:53 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: whores NJC Erica wrote: .So because of that fact she doesn't look like a whore? Haven't paid much attention to her but don't think she looks like a whore (if there is a way that whores look), anymore than the countless number of men and women that litter the beaches and swimming pools each summer. Christina > Agularia knows what she's doing, she's making alot of $$$, if dressing up > like a penguin and tap dancing brought home the bacon, she'd be doing that. I say good for her. If she is smart to enough to find her fortune now, more power to her. > I'm just saying she is doing everything short of wearing only dental floss > to SELL herself. That is nothing new. Has been going on since time began, in different ways by different people. Now if this is just a discussion about defining "whore" > it's pointless, Could be, as could be a discussion about whether or not certain entertainers sell out, are true to their art, do it just for the sake of art or themselves, etc. Is > her image more important than the music? Totally subjective to whomever is judging. If we went back in time 30 years > with no MTV around would this girl ever make it? Who knows. Plenty of women, and men, that are more or less similar to her that did. I'm just frustrated with > the fact that musical talent is taking a back seat to T and A like it never > has before. If that is true and I don't know that it is, it would be pretty disheartening. Great thing about free choice, we can ignore those we want to and buy the music that we like. Hey she's a genie in a bottle, you gotta rub her the right way. Beautiful Erica. lol. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:01:27 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: wagner i just read the posts now and then, so i don't know exactly who said what to whom, so this goes to the list in general. to dis wagner because hitler liked his music is like ... well the analogies are so abundant that i won't even write one. i leave it to your enlightened heads. to dis wagner's music because wagner was a horrible man is like ... again, complete the analogy yourselves. i very emphatically believe that only a very intellectually challenged person can pass the kind of judgment i have read on this list about wagner's music on the basis of politics. folks, if you don't like opera, if it bores you, if you hate classically trained voices, if you're only contact with opera has been the occasional boheme or don giovanni, please refrain from making fools of yourselves. i can go with, ?? i saw die walkure and i was bored to death?? or any comment on your PERSONAL experience. you hated every minute? fine. i get it. but it bothers me when you make unwarranted generalizations and judge what you have no background or significant exposure to judge. it offends me as a relatively intelligent member of this list. sometimes many of you sound like those people who stopped LIKING woody allen movies after he married his step-daughter. wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:07:05 -0800 From: "RSM" Subject: Re: Whose breasts are they anyway? A resend of an earlier email that I suspect was magically deleted by my computer: Found this on a Google cached page from a jmdl page: "In the song, Don Juan is really the art of the tongue, it's rapping - coffee house poet talk," says Joni who dressed up as a black guy for the LP's cover and sleeve. That's her too, underneath the Indian garb. The shooting sessions were upbeat, with Joni trying on different dresses and dancing around while Norman Seeff clicked away. When he asked for another change of clothes, he hardly recognized the black character that strutted from the dressing room five minutes later. "At that point, I realized I really enjoy character acting," she says. Working again with the Camera Lucida (Lucy) machine, Joni arranged the photos agreed upon from the sessions: she blew up the shot of her as the black guy and put it in the foreground; she liked the spirit of the shot with the top hat because it symbolized what she felt was the 'magic' on the album; and she included the shot of a kid who'd been in a session for a previous album. "He was shy and had never danced before, that's why he's looking at his feet," she says. But to her, the elements were not "homogenized" enough to be the final cover shot. When she noticed a postcard of a nude with a Mickey Mouse hat and balloons on a bulletin board she felt it was "the element that was like the cherry on the pudding that makes the whole thing come together." She worked it onto the dress, partly obscuring the pubic area and figure of Mickey Mouse (for legal reasons), I added the birds, and then had an airbrusher smooth over the edges of all the photos. She then selected the background colors from the options presented by Glen Christensen, who, she says, has a "wonderful knowledge of inks." http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=don+juan%27s+reckless+cove r+art Ron - ----- Original Message ----- From: "dsk" To: "Steve Dulson" ; Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 11:44 AM Subject: Re: Whose breasts are they anyway? > Steve Dulson wrote: > > > > Actually, we have discussed this - some dedicated archive surfer > > might be able to find the posts. My contention is that the person > > on the cover of DJRD is...er...somewhat more endowed than our > > Siquomb. > > That was my first thought, too, based on the swimming pool picture and > the ones of her in the desert. And, to veer even more toward the > indelicate... our Siquomb is a natural blonde, yes? and the figure on > the dress isn't. > > I vaguely recognize the figure from some painting, but can't pinpoint or > find which one. It's never struck me as sexy even though it is nude. > Joni's liveliness in that photo is much more appealing to me. > > And thanks to Bree (I think) for pointing out that the way the figure is > holding her arms is similar to the way Joni has been photographed. > Interesting. I still don't think the nude figure is Joni, but there may > have been some unconscious copying going on in the photos. Maybe it's a > painting Joni really loves. > > Now that I'm looking closely at the cover, what's with all those > big-eared cartoon images? Doves I can understand, a nude "art" figure > makes sense, too, but mickey mouse??? > > Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:26:07 +0100 From: "Moni Kellermann" Subject: Re: Travelogue album edition issue I guess that the description of the German promoter was correct, i.e. a box containing 2 booklets and 2 CD's. He seems not to have noticed that one of the CD's is enhanced. Thanx for the info, Billy! :)) Although the German release date is listed as Nov. 25, I hope I will get my copy next week, I am really keen to see more of the paintings! Billy: how big are the images of the paintings displayed on the CD in terms of resolution? Are they full-screen? moni ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:38:40 -0500 From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC wagner vs eminem You're a good sport, Vince. I appreciate discussing these things with you. So cathartic for me. In retrospect, I went off on a bit of a rant in my two posts on eminem yesterday, I think. I feel like a bit of an ogre today for not being more diplomatic. Please forgive me if my tone was harsh. Oh, and sorry about the delusional thing, too. Didn't mean it. I got carried away. vince wrote: > Still working on Jay-Z's oeuvre... and trying to figure out exactly who > Ludacris' "Move Bitch, get out the way" is directed to, and why. > > > Clip? Clip?! Hey, no fair! That 'As if' stuff I wrote was my favorite part of the whole rant! You could've honored that with a response, dawg. I thought that "melts in your mouth, not in your hands thing" was pretty doggone clever. Eminem's no John Brown, get it? Reminiscent of our Civil War/slavery tete a tete a couple years ago...remember? No? Nevermind. :-) > I am waiting for Lynne Cheney and Tipper Gore to unite in having congressional > hearings on how Wagner is everything you have said below, and thus his music > should be banned, or at the least, warnings must be printed on each album. The > old joke about 2LiveCrew is always appropriate: had they said in Italian, > they'd be acclaimed as genius on every classical musical station in the > country. Politics in Opera would be an interesting discussion, I think. I'm not suggesting that any bells be unrung with regard to Wagner's compositions. I personally wouldn't be able to sit through it being performed though. I'd be thinking about the Holocaust the whole time. What was the title of that book about Wagner I read a while back..._The Dark Side of Genius_, I think. Chilling read. > It was only in 1997 > that I finally went to see Wagner for the first time (someone else bought the > ticket) precisely because what you say is correct, if understated, he was > literally a father of Nazi culture. But eventually I thought the opera was > going to be done anyway whether I went or not and I am always the one who > argues that we should experience everything, maybe especially when we know what > it is about, and so I saw Flying Dutchman. I understand. I could see maybe listening to some Wagner for anthropological purposes myself some day, maybe. On second thought, nah. To hell with him. I said: > > I'll confine my sympathy for the devil to the Rolling > > Stones tour, thank you. :-) > Vince said: > The Stones tour was fine and Jagger sang Sympathy in fine voice. Now me again: I saw the Rolling Stones last week, too, at San Francisco's PacBell Park. Home of the almost-world-champion San Francisco Giants. In fact, I actually called Paz in New orleans on my cell phone during their performance of "Sympathy..." so I could share the moment with him and sing "woo woo, woo woo!" in his ear at the appropriate juncture. I was jazzed to hear that one live. I kidded: > > I mean, Eminem couldn't even pronounce "Wagner." Vince replyed: > I suspect he could! :-) There is some great musicianship > underlying his beats, but there I go getting started again.... > You go right ahead, Vince. I have nothing but respect for you and your views, even when we differ. Love and wonderful weekends to you all, Julius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:54:15 -0500 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: wagner njc Wally, seasons ticket holder to the opera person that I am, I don't think i am intellectually challenged. Wagner was a racist and a proto-Nazi and his librettos, especially the Ring cycle, reflect that fully. It is not happenstance or coincidence that Hitler loved Wagner, nor that Beyruth became the Nazi annual Woodstock, nor that Wagner's family (widow, off-spring) were active Nazis. Nazi ideology did not get invented with Hitler, it was floating around for a long time before that, and Wagner was an anti-semite, a racist, and fully believed that nonAryans were inferior human beings and worse. And that is the problem. His music itself is genius. His ideology which permeates his librettos is offensive and proto-Nazi. The Ring Cycle speaks for itself as an expression fo everything that the Nazis later expressed in a different form. So this is a tab bit more than Woody Allen and Mia's daughter. I am solving my quandry by going to Die Walkure for the music knowing the context of the libretto. To admire Wagner's musical genius we must not forget the seminal role that utter hatred played in his librettos, his idelogy, and what he was all about, for he was more than just his operas. His whole devotion to "volk" and everything that went with that was a fully realized ideology of proto-Nazi-ism. And I have seen a hell of a lot more than just a Boheme and Giovanni, although those are not bad places to start for the novice. I am looking forward in February to seeing Palenthrope (spelling?) by Handel, whose operas I am currently discovering. I fell in love with his stuff when I saw Xerxes - I don't know when I have ever been so gripped by a plot! Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:14:01 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Whose breasts are they anyway? RSM wrote: > > When she noticed a postcard of a nude with a Mickey Mouse hat... Oh, I see. Sometimes a mickey mouse is just a (disguised for copyright reasons) mickey mouse. Thanks for finding that info from the jmdl.com treasure house. I always like learning about Joni's creative process (or at least the conscious part of it) and hadn't read about the DJRD cover before. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:09:48 -0500 From: "Erica L. Trudelle" Subject: Re: whores NJC ok...I think I am coming across wrong here....Lori's practically calling me a Puritan or Tipper Gore!!! No one here knows me anyway so no one can appreciate how funny that is. I guess next time I see a video with a half naked woman singing about being rubbed while watched by 10 sweaty men, I'll sit back, smile and think to myself, what classy woman,what a positive message, whatever it takes to make a living, you go girl, good for you, and hope my young daughter wants to grow up and be just like her. I realize this has been going on since the beginning of time....I guess I'm just wondering if there is ever a point when it becomes too over the top? Is it all about $$$, does that justify all entertainers to portray ANY image? Is there ever a case for an "artist" to be held responsible for the repercusions? I am not preaching these ideas just throwing them out there into space to see what kind of judgement I'll receive. peace out, Erica From: "mack watson-bush" Reply-To: "mack watson-bush" To: "JMDL" Subject: Re: whores NJC Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:07:53 -0600 Erica wrote: .So because of that fact she doesn't look like a whore? Haven't paid much attention to her but don't think she looks like a whore (if there is a way that whores look), anymore than the countless number of men and women that litter the beaches and swimming pools each summer. Christina > Agularia knows what she's doing, she's making alot of $$$, if dressing up > like a penguin and tap dancing brought home the bacon, she'd be doing that. I say good for her. If she is smart to enough to find her fortune now, more power to her. > I'm just saying she is doing everything short of wearing only dental floss > to SELL herself. That is nothing new. Has been going on since time began, in different ways by different people. Now if this is just a discussion about defining "whore" > it's pointless, Could be, as could be a discussion about whether or not certain entertainers sell out, are true to their art, do it just for the sake of art or themselves, etc. Is > her image more important than the music? Totally subjective to whomever is judging. If we went back in time 30 years > with no MTV around would this girl ever make it? Who knows. Plenty of women, and men, that are more or less similar to her that did. I'm just frustrated with > the fact that musical talent is taking a back seat to T and A like it never > has before. If that is true and I don't know that it is, it would be pretty disheartening. Great thing about free choice, we can ignore those we want to and buy the music that we like. Hey she's a genie in a bottle, you gotta rub her the right way. Beautiful Erica. lol. mack _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:13:15 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: thinking of women NJC I wrote: << Interestingly, while you are right that Hammer and Vanilla Ice were not criticised for being men, Vanilla Ice WAS heavily slated because of his colour. I don't know what this tells us<< Jerry added: >>But (Vanilla Ice) he did get criticized for his race.<< And Mike replied: << Whatever it tells you and tells me is open to different interpretations, and that's cool. What it doesn't do is make it ok to use offensive sexist (tautology?) language against women and not men just because the guys are getting the flak over their 'race' (like 'gender', another social construct). I know Azeem and Jerry are not saying that it IS OK, but it is curious that their comments are so similar, or at least focus on the same thing, which could, I repeat could, be read as a justification, if one was in a pedantic mood. Which I'm not, but while I'm on the subject, let's not confuse 'race' with 'colour' either. >> I'm coming back to this a little after the fact: go away for a day and find 186 emails in my inbox. Anyway, I want to make it clear that I was IN NO WAY suggesting that it's OK to use sexist or misogynist language about anyone. You were reading more into my comment than was there, Mike. Azeem in London NP: Sarah Polley singing the title song from the soundtrack album to The Sweet Hereafter - wonderful stuff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:15:12 -0500 From: "Erica L. Trudelle" Subject: Re: wow, such judgement njc Erica wrote: > What do flower children become when they grow-up? Mack wrote: >Good question. Being a member of this page has helped me come closer to the true answer to that question. Where have all the flowers gone........????? ERica _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:25:08 -0800 From: "jeff t." Subject: Re: njc a note of gratitude? >Franklin> Hey Jeff, kudos for your investigative savvy. Even I DIDN'T know >I was listed on that "special thanks" section. (LOL) My pleasure, Franklin. From the moment you stepped into this discussion list, I sensed a change in the air. A bit like old One Eye in White Fang; muzzle up, tail stiffened, not satisfied, and striving to understand the message born upon that air. >Upon further inquiry (I e-mailed the contact button at >http://www.reconcilerecords.com) I discovered my hitherto unbeknownst >"honor", buried in the back and immediately sent an inquiry (via their >"contact" button as to WHY?) Great. I too have been trying to learn more about Reconcile Records but I just can't seem to locate them. Oh well, must be me. And from "Sue Stark" (label manager): >"Due to the fact that we would have never had contact with him, or acquired >this lovely site if it hadn't been for your sharing spirit, we added your >name as an afterthought at the bottom of the "special thanks". Thought he >would have told you... Sorry for the surprise and if you do not want it >there, we will have it removed. You and those like you prove that this is >a small world, and often smaller proves better." Isn't that the truth, Franklin? >Now my question to you would be - as a savvy Internet "map" traveler, >obviously intrigued enough to thoroughly investigate the "official" L.A. >Cowboy site, did you hopefully fulfill your (presumably) initial intention >and visit long enough to savor his unusual,(brilliant really) "quotes" >page? Did you read any of his magnificent poetry, listen to his unique >world-class music? Damn, you are certainly no chump. 'Presumably' sure says it perfectly. How did you know I had so little interest in la cowboy? Nope, it was you, Franklin. So much to say and so many selfless plugs of an 'obscure' artist, I just had to get to know you better. >Just understandably curious - as you made absolutely NO remarks - positive, >negative or otherwise regarding my artistic recommendations. Perhaps you >were so excited and enamored to find my name buried at the back of the site >under that of my acquaintance, Brooke, who built it, that you totally >forgot the reason for the visit. If that be the case, I recommend you >reevaluate your initial intentions and re-proceed upon the quest with a >renewed vigor to investigate the artist in question, as assumedly your >investigation of me is now concluded. I do believe that WAS your initial >intention - to explore the artistry of L.A. Cowboy - wasn't it? No. It wasn't. But what a loser I would be if I didn't learn something along the fetid way. I sludged through that wellspring of wit and lo and behold found a few so telling I am compelled to share: "Lies, by definition are manipulation, my dear." Now where did I see that 'my dear' before ...? "The seventh-day Sabbath of the scriptures is the appointed foundation of all Divine worship." Thanks. I was never able to quite clear this wicket. "The modern so-called gift of 'speaking in tongues', is merely a self-stimulating form of spiritual masturbation." Overlook the redundancy, this one bears repeating. "My songs are miniature quote books." Indeed. "A fake is generally devoid of arrogance... like it or not." I have my doubts. "He who does not enjoy his own company is usually right." Ziggy? "If I didnt waste my time thinking, Id spend my time talking" Or writing. "Modern ecumenicism - the setting aside doctrinal differences in the name of "christian" unity - is, in essence, a form of spiritual homosexuality: like attracting like. YIKES! (or is it YUCK ?!)" Yeah, that man to man stuff is pretty wicked, huh? Now where did I see that 'yikes' before...? "Hey I'm just a broke 'rascal' but most chicks dig it anyway... What can I say?" What CAN you say? "The epitome of an oxymoron: "rap music"" Perfect. Let me forward this to a couple of JMDLers. "There is nothing quite so pathetic as a failed attempt at creativity." You sly dog you! This is exactly what I need for the third grade class tomorrow. They were struggling today with colors in a sky and I was lazily content with 'loser'. "I'm just another artist, with inordinate feelings to go along with my inordinate obsessions for creating creations." Sublime. "I hate to sound pretentious: but wait.......... I AM pretentious." Humbly pretentious. >Of course if you continue to be perplexed, paralyzed by your inadvertently >"remarkable" discovery, you could always e-mail Reconcile Records (although >they might find such an inquiry rather bizarre - who knows, they've been >quite charitable in answering MY occasional correspondence/questions.) >Otherwise, I'll gently point you back to the issue at hand: seeking to >personally verify a fellow JMDL's opinions regarding the prosodic treasures >I've discovered and so considerately (I hope), enthusiastically shared, >possibly benefiting from exposure to an artist that you too might find >extraordinary. I do believe that this is why we are all inevitably here: to >share our love and joy of tasteful,inspiring music. That said, I truly >hope you get back on the original trail. The artistic investigation - >remember? Go for it Sherlock!! Thanks Franklin. Your genuine benevolence is a ray of light in these conspiratorial days. If only I weren't overloaded with coffee mugs... >P.S. Although I'm not all that "special", I am rather reserved: That >being the case, I hope you will understand my hesitancy in releasing my >social security number, credit reports, police record (no felonies, mostly >speeding tickets etc.) or rulings regarding my divorce proceedings >(nothing to scandalous - just a bit too sad and personal), particularly as >I don't necessarily deduce their relevancy regarding this probatively >resolved situation. (wink, smirk, smile) And I wouldn't rap your gavel just yet... Jeff _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:33:25 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: whores NJC Erica wrote: I am not preaching these ideas just throwing them out there > into space to see what kind of judgement I'll receive. Well, Erica, you seem to me to be a woman with strong convictions and some pretty good ideas and, though I don't agree with some of them, I can see your points which have merit. Hopefully, I can learn something from them. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:33:37 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: wow, such judgement njc Some little kid came along and picked them all. Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Erica L. Trudelle Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 5:15 PM To: joni@smoe.org Cc: courtandspark@earthlink.net Subject: Re: wow, such judgement njc Being a member of this page has helped me come closer to the true answer to that question. Where have all the flowers gone........????? ERica _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #493 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)