From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #492 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, November 15 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 492 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- We're doomed (njc) [FredNow@aol.com] Today in History: November 15 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: Cookbook ["Marian Russell " ] Re: What Nonesuch Records is trying to say.... [FredNow@aol.com] Joni Mitchell, Stevie Nicks, Sheryl Crow, Trisha Yearwood Sing For Walden Woods [Richard Goldman ] Re: thinking of women NJC ["colin" ] Re: We're doomed (njc) ["colin" ] Re: What Nonesuch Records is trying to say.... ["colin" ] RE: What Nonesuch Records is trying to say....NJC [Mags N Brei ] Swingin' Travelogue ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: Joni solo [Mags N Brei ] NJC wagner vs eminem [vince ] re eminem versus vanilla ice NJC ["mike pritchard" ] njc pritchard vs eminem [vince ] Travelogue album edition issue ["Moni Kellermann" ] Re: Travelogue album edition issue ["Bill Dollinger" ] Re: wow, such judgement njc [] Re: the jonifest tapes njc [] Re: the jonifest tapes njc ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: thinking of women NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Joni solo [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Travelogue album edition issue [Jerry Notaro ] Re: njc pritchard vs eminem ["mike pritchard" ] Re: thinking of women NJC ["mike pritchard" ] environmental causes njc ["mack watson-bush" ] 'Give yourself to love?' NJC [Steve Dulson ] Re: thinking of women NJC [colin ] Re: thinking of women NJC [colin ] Re: LA Times Review of Stormy Weather II [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Who's breasts are they anyway? 100% JC [colin ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 03:13:33 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: We're doomed (njc) Army Dismisses Gay Arabic Linguists SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Nine Army linguists, including six trained to speak Arabic, have been dismissed from the military because they are gay. The soldiers' dismissals come at a time when the military is facing a critical shortage of translators and interpreters for the war on terrorism. Seven of the soldiers were discharged after telling superiors they are gay, and the two others got in trouble when they were caught together after curfew, said Steve Ralls, spokesman for the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, a group that defends homosexuals in the military. Six were specializing in Arabic, two were studying Korean and one was studying Mandarin Chinese. All were at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, the military's primary language training center. The government has aggressively recruited Arabic speakers since the Sept. 11 attacks. "We face a drastic shortage of linguists, and the direct impact of Arabic speakers is a particular problem," said Donald R. Hamilton, who documented the need for more linguists in a report to Congress as part of the National Commission on Terrorism. One of the discharged linguists said the military's policy on gays is hurting its cause. "It's not a gay-rights issue. I'm arguing military proficiency issues - they're throwing out good, quality people," said Alastair Gamble, a former Army specialist. Harvey Perritt, spokesman for the Army Training and Doctrine Command at Fort Monroe in Tidewater, Va., confirmed the dismissals occurred between October 2001 and September 2002, but declined to comment further on the cases. He said 516 linguists enrolled in the Arabic course this year at the Monterey institute and 365 graduated. The military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy allows gays to serve provided they keep quiet about their sexual orientation. Gamble and former Pfc. Robert Hicks were discovered in Gamble's room during a surprise inspection in April, Gamble said. After their discharges, Gamble and Hicks applied for other federal jobs where they could use their language skills in the war on terrorism, but neither was hired, Gamble said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 03:15:37 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: November 15 1975: Joni, as part of the Rolling Thunder Revue with Dylan and others, performed twice today at the Convention Center in Niagra Falls, New York - once in the afternoon and again in the evening. - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 03:16:49 -0500 From: "Marian Russell " Subject: Re: Cookbook Thanks are also due to Julie Z. Webb and Beverly who dreamed up the idea. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 03:22:55 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: What Nonesuch Records is trying to say.... >With material that reaches >back to 1970 ... Fact checkers? We don't need no stinkin' fact checkers! >It s a journey that began nearly three >decades ago ... Apparently arithmetically challenged as well. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 00:30:00 -0800 From: Richard Goldman Subject: Joni Mitchell, Stevie Nicks, Sheryl Crow, Trisha Yearwood Sing For Walden Woods >Mitchell, who closed the show with three numbers, including Bob >Dylan's "Sweetheart Like You" and a new, orchestral version of her classic >"Woodstock," that served as a preview of her upcoming Travelogue release. What was the third song? and HOW WAS SHE???!!! >Items auctioned included a trip on a >private jet to Las Vegas to see Celine Dion perform, a guitar autographed >by the night's performers, and another signed by Bruce Springsteen & the E >Street Band. How much did the tip to see Celine go for? and How much did Bruce's guitar go for?! Richard n.p. Pearl Jam on Letterman: "I am mine" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:43:01 +0000 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Thongs to a Seagul Hi everyone, ..my posts are best appreciated when imagining me giggling at my computer....I laugh a lot ! Been reading the deluge of posts and trying to synthesise some thoughts but getting nowhere fast. As ever, Fred's got me thinking. Where would we be without him. Anyhoo, this notion about critics and personal taste has made me reflect upon the idea 'Has Joni realised her intent in putting together 'Travelogue' So my question is not to anyone on the list but to Joni herself 'What were you thinking about woman?' I laughed about one of the other posts about the tight knickered Brits. Would that include the maestro himself Signor Mendoza? In reading the rest of that post I realise a change of heart has taken place...so it is posssible and I want to be one of them. Serious thought time.....( not gigling but looking quizzical) ..again its Fred that's go tme thinking....is it possible to express ideas which are objective? I'm off to put on a realy tight pair of pants ( work that one out) Gordon PS Have a good weekend all. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:59:22 -0000 From: "colin" Subject: Re: thinking of women NJC men get a lot of flack too for behaving 'gay'. Watch any tv program and listen to the words men use about other men(and women use to). In fact there is a lot of nme calling which has sexist/mysoginist overtones. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Pritchard" To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 7:16 PM Subject: Re: thinking of women NJC > Azeem wrote: > > >>Interestingly, while you are right that Hammer and Vanilla Ice were not > criticised for being men, Vanilla Ice WAS heavily slated because of his > colour. I don't know what this tells us<< > > Jerry added: > > >>But (Vanilla Ice) he did get criticized for his race.<< > > Whatever it tells you and tells me is open to different interpretations, > and that's cool. What it doesn't do is make it ok to use offensive sexist > (tautology?) language against women and not men just because the guys are > getting the flak over their 'race' (like 'gender', another social > construct). I know Azeem and Jerry are not saying that it IS OK, but it > is curious that their comments are so similar, or at least focus on the > same thing, which could, I repeat could, be read as a justification, if > one was in a pedantic mood. Which I'm not, but while I'm on the subject, > let's not confuse 'race' with 'colour' either. > > mike in barcelona > > NP Pat Metheny  Trio 99-00 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:01:39 -0000 From: "colin" Subject: Re: We're doomed (njc) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 8:13 AM Subject: We're doomed (njc) > Army Dismisses Gay Arabic Linguists > not a surprise.bigots are not renowned fro their intelligence. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:03:16 -0000 From: "colin" Subject: Re: What Nonesuch Records is trying to say.... I recently bought the DVD of NO Secrets. the only visuals are the lyrics and photos as it plays. The sound maybe better but other than that, this is juts a cd. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:04:49 -0800 From: Julius Raymond Subject: Re: NJC vanilla ice vs eminem First things first: thank you for hearing me out, vince, and your thoughtful reply is appreciated. I believe your heart is in the right place and I very much value your friendship. To clarify, I don't "despise" eminem, whom I've never met. For all I know, he's a righteous dude...a fucking saint. I said I abhorred the star-maker propaganda and hype surrounding him, and his music product. I said and still believe that whatever his talent, it is not commensurate with the pervasive attention he's getting. In hip hop vernacular, if you will, I don't hate the playa, I just loath the game that gives him rise to the exclusion of worthy others. I long to hear you explicate some other rap artist's body of work for a change. You'll make my day if you go out on a limb and discuss an disenfranchised black poetess with the same fervor. That bit about Jay-Z you wrote has me feeling you better already.. But be assured that, at the end of the day, I consider it your inalienable prerogative to like whatsoever you feel lead to. I'm just at a loss when I try to understand how you can set the genius bar so low. And I'm exorcised that you would be so cavalier as to ascribe respect from the entire "black community" to this self-pitying kid. Neither you, nor I, have standing to do that. As if such respect is so easily garnered. As if the African American populace is some kind of undiscriminating, homogenous flock of black sheep, eager to be lead to water by a scowling, blue-eyed shepherd boy named after a dime store chocolate that melts in your mouth, not in your hands. As if Eminem is some kind of latter day John Brown. That's what set me off. Don't do that. Please. > I am about to see Wagner's Die Walkure > which features murder, incest, and racism. Is it a great classic of > western music or do we judge it by Eminem standards? Um, what? You've lost me. You're not defending Wagner now, are you? The severely disturbed German 19th century composer, author, virulent racist and anti-Semite, whose operas are rife with thinly veiled racist and anti-Semitic subtexts? Die Walkure is a "great classic of western music" like _Mein Kampf_ is a classic of western literature. I wouldn't be caught dead at a Wagner performance. Jesus Christ, Vince. That shit is concentrated evil. I'll confine my sympathy for the devil to the Rolling Stones tour, thank you. :-) What does Die Walkure have to do with Mathers' music anyway, please? I mean, Eminem couldn't even pronounce "Wagner." With love, if not tenderness, Julius np: Beck, "Lost Cause" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "vince" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:59 PM Subject: Re: NJC vanilla ice vs eminem > Julius, if we all liked the same thing, it would be boring. > > I disagree with your assessment of Em's music and his lyrics. > > What else to I listen to? I have listened to it all from the beginning, > as I was living in a very urban section of Kalamazoo when rap hit the > airwaves. I wouldn't term G S-H rap, by the way, although I think he is > the real first rapper. Anyway, currently in my personal heavy rotation > is Ludacris, Xzibit, Jay-Z and Obie Trice and I rather resent the > implication that I only like the rapper who is white. That I do > resent.. > > Chris Rock's joke is funny because of the truth in it. > > Eminem, in my opinion, isn't fronting, but he does flip it all right > back, hence the quote you make from "Without Me." > > Anyone can make a movie about anything, yes. So you use that > generalization to rip a movie you have not seen. And you call me > delusional. > > And obviously I cannot speak for the black community and I do apologize > for sounding like I was, if that is how it came across. While my home > is right now in rural western Michigan, I spend a lot of time in > Detroit, Chicago, and my old neighborhood in Kalamazoo. In my > experience, let me say as a qualifier, in my personal and direct > experience, the African American community here has embraced Em as > real. Perhaps it is because Michigan is his home state and he is known > here well. The wonderful thing about Eminem is that he has brought > audiences together that have been separate for way too many years. When > I saw Em in concert this summer, it was far and away the most mixed > audience I have been in since Sly and the Family Stone and that was in > 1970. It was good to see such a mixed audience again. You may call it > delusional, call me delusional as you did, my friend, but the delusion > is in thinking that music cannot bring people together. > > The people here that I know, my experience of the black community, is > that Em is the man. Again, this may be a Michigan thing. > > The charge that Em is fronting to rip off black music does offend me > because I have following this guy's career for a number of years and I > simply don't see it. Make that charge against Pat Boone, against > Vanilla Ice, against a lot of folks, it would be true. But there is > something different about Eminem, and that is my opinion, based on my > experience, and I am sticking with it. And maybe his legendary (in > Michigan) generosity with those with whom he came up with has an impact > on my opinion. He hasn't gone white. > > Dre is out for making money, sure. Aren't we all. He isn't going to > produce someone with no talent. Dre has not been Svengali to a witless > talentless white boy to front for sales, he took on a very talented > rapper who happens to be white. > > Dre doesn't need a white rapper to make money, if that is his sole > goal. Nelly makes his damned good living off of suburban whites, and > Tag Team and Sir Mixalot have certainly shown there are megabucks to be > made from rap marketed to white kids by black rappers. All rap sales > have been 75% white - Tupac and Biggy knew that too, and a part of the > whole thug thing was to make the rap the exotic and dangerous lure for > white kids. Let's keep it real here. > > Your comment on Alicia Keys - that same point is by Obie Trice on the > 8 Mile soundtrack about Lauryn Hill, "she stopped making music with > beats...". > > It just so happens that Em is one hell of a rapper and he is white. The > surprising thing may have been that it has taken so long for a white rap > star to emerge, given that Blondie was rapping back in the early 80s. > It took so long, I think, because the one who was to break through was > going to be damned, damned good, and Em is. > > And hell, Julius, all American music as we know it comes from black > sources. Name it -rock, jazz, tell em an American music form that > doesn't have African American roots. Can no white person play jazz? > can no white person sing the blues? (Well, maybe not well) Can no > white person sing Johnny B. Goode? At what point does it cease being > race music and become part of the culture for all? When can a white > person rap? Was it the same crime when Joni sang Mingus? How long do > you keep the music limited to one racial group? If music doesn't > broaden us and bring people together then what the fuck good is it? > > The real problem, that neither one of us responded to, was the person > who posted this week that rap wasn't music at all, which is a huge > denial of a music form that arose from the streets. That to me was > racist. That's where your argument may be, not with me, I humbly > suggest. I am offering a validation of rap as real music. > > Hey, when Mary J. Blige sings, I don't think race, I think, raw, pure, > total talent. I get the same feeling from Eminem. And the same was > true for Elvis. Except Elvis left the black community behind. Em has > continued to work with the people he knew in the day, His values are > old school. He has not gone white. He is still hood. > > Whenever someone says, "Have you stopped to think..." I know the insult > is there, you are saying, i don't think. Hell, Julius, I am a 50 year > old gay man who has seasons tickets for the Lyric Opera and spend time > on the streets, I've been to street corner battles, I have lived in the > hood , I am not predisposed to rap, but I heard it all the time from my > neighbors, my clients, my friends, and I got into it. I can never be > black, but I can be very intentional and serious about the music I like > and the music I tout and the genius that I recognize. > > The best bass in the last century was not some European star, it was > Paul Robeson. One can argue Leotyne Price at the top of her field. > Music transcends race. the best rapper is white. > > And in the end, I am sick unto death of the old tired charges against > Em's lyrics. Mike in barcelona has just shown us a whole slew of music > that contains violent images. I am about to see Wagner's Die Walkure > which features murder, incest, and racism. Is it a great classic of > western music or do we judge it by Eminem standards? Em would win that > - look to all of the words on all the album before you pick and pull out > of context. Yeah, Stan is a violent lunatic who desperately needs help > and kills his girlfriend - and Stan is not the hero, in Em's own voice > he warns that the guy needs help, that he needs to control to anger, > that he has to stop acting out - > > Today in my office was a young woman beaten by her boyfriend, badly, > this woman a member of the wedding party of Gage's mother, and I know > that the violence against Robin was done by some Stan-like idiot, the > whole scene probably sounded like the track Kim - and I wish I could > grab that fucker and make him listen to Eminem who tells the world that > people who commit violence against women are losers, that it hs to stop, > that it is sickness, it must stop. > > Oh, but those anti-violence lyrics, Em's real words on that subject are > never broadcast because then Lynne Chenny and Tipper Gore and Joe > Lieberman and all the watchdogs of our morals from the Christian right > wouldn't be able to pillory Eminem - who is a target because he is > white, they haven't the guts to take on Ludacris and risk charges of > racism so they go after the white guy - and demonize by pulling out a > line here, a line there, out of context. You have bought into the > American Family Association Christian right Lynne Cheney fund raising > cries of alarm about bad, bad Eminem. > > Em opened his last tour with clips of all the congressional hearing > where he was denounced over and over and over for the same tired old > things. (The New Yorker suggests their real opposition to Em is in his > bridging racial barriers in a way that is not Bush like.) The irony is, > everyone worked up over Em, and maybe they should have been a bit more > worried about Al Queda... but that doesn't get nice coverage on the > evening news until after September 11th. Attacking Em did. > > In the end, Julius, you may despise Em for any reason. I can't really > get into jazz or country. We all have our things where it doesn't work > for us. And we haven't always had the deepest and lengthiest of > conversations, but we have always been cool together. I do resent the > implication of my having a preference for Em because he is white - hell, > I have seen Xzibit and Ludacris and Executioner and Bionic Jive too, > this past summer, and seen my share of my black rappers, who I like a > lot, and I saw the Rolling Stones who made their fortune mining black > music. But the Stones have done it with an all white band. Em > continues to work with his homies. Let's get real as you say, Despise > Em for whatever reason you want. And if your obviously far more real > experience in your community brings you into contact with people who > feel differently than my contacts, maybe again, it is a Michigan thing, > or just that I am hanging with people with whom I share common opinions, > as you are. > > But I stand by my opinion that the man is a genius, a master, a person > who transcends in his word play and in his music. And I respect him > because he always credits those with whom he has developed his craft, > In his own world, he has street cred. At least that is so. For the > rest, again, if we all liked the same things, how fucking dull the world > would be, and the ability to exchange the frankest of opinions in this > forum is a testimony to the strength of this community and as you > disagree with me, so I disagree with you, but i trust we remain embraced > in friendship for the things we hold in common and our common love of > life. I bear you no ill will Julius for taking me to task, I have > responded, and as they say, Peace Out! > > Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 04:27:51 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: RE: What Nonesuch Records is trying to say....NJC "Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama)" wrote: I thought that citation might provoke you to post. The dictionary defined "pentinent" as 'Feeling or expressing remorse' and this reminded me of the "I made my baby say good-bye" blues that you share with our favorite grandmother. I think you might have used the word 'remorse'. Or maybe it was sorrow. Anyway, it sounds like 'regret' rather than the word 'confessional' that people usually come up with for songwriters. Provoked, yep. Indeed it did provoke me (to post). Just didnt know what you were getting at. According to my Oxford, remorse:1.bitter regret for wrong committed. now that's a loaded definition if I ever saw one. And just to clarify Lama, Im not bitter. And yes, just as she wrote: sometimes there'll be sorrow. (that's a given). Mags You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:43:12 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Joni solo Of course I would also love a Joni solo record...and what's more, so would the biz and so would the general public! When I think back to the hype given to "comebacks" like Bonnie Raitt, Carlos Santana, Eric Clapton, etc, I think our Joni would be given much the same treatment, unless there's too much resentment over all the nastiness she's been spilling lately. Really & truly, if she DOES quit she's admitting that the industry is right - that there's no vitality or marketability in women of her age & stage...how much sweeter to come back with something kickass and prove them totally WRONG. Joni, call Ani stat! Nebraska remains one of my favorite Springsteen records...and it CERTAINLY wasn't because he gave the biz what it wanted. Have a great weekend all - I'm bound for the SC coast. Bob NP: Patti Witten, "Walk A Mile" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:01:35 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: LA Times review, Stormy Weather POP MUSIC REVIEW Talent burns away 'Stormy Weather' The singer-songwriter tradition takes center stage as women stars lead a benefit. By Randy Lewis, Times Staff Writer Stars aplenty shone from the Wiltern stage Wednesday at the second "Stormy Weather" concert, a fund-raiser for Don Henley's Walden Woods Project. Yet despite many stellar performances among short sets by Joni Mitchell, Stevie Nicks, Reba McEntire, Trisha Yearwood, Sheryl Crow, Norah Jones, Paula Cole, Deborah Cox, Susan Tedeschi and Michelle Branch, the star of the evening wasn't a single one of them. The true headliner was the singer-songwriter tradition itself. The 10 women, each given time for a couple of songs with a 60-piece orchestra, championed that tradition, from newcomer Branch's opening notes to Mitchell's captivating closing set more than two hours later. In addition to samples of their own songs, most of the participants saluted at least one of their favorite songwriters. Mitchell easily handled Bob Dylan's Mitchell-esque "Sweetheart Like You," Jones glided through the Band's "It Makes No Difference" and Crow deftly rendered Steve Earle's heartbreaking "Goodbye." Cole inhabited Tom Waits and Kathleen Brennan's "House Where Nobody Lives," while Yearwood aced Harold Arlen and Ira Gershwin's "The Man That Got Away." There were moments, however, when some of the relative newcomers didn't seem quite at home alone in front of an orchestra. The blues-based Tedeschi, for instance, did an admirable job as a torch singer, both on the standard "These Foolish Things" and in an appropriately moody reading of Mitchell's melancholy holiday song "River." Still, you ached for someone to hand her a guitar so she could really cut loose. Likewise, jazz-blues sensation Jones, while exhibiting the evocative vocal phrasing that has made her one of the year's brightest arrivals, appeared especially ill at ease without her piano in front of her. That may have been as much a function of experience as sheer comfort level. As the show progressed to the veterans, the poise and confidence level rose. McEntire gave a reminder of what a marvelous straight country singer she was before she became a mistress of all media, with her treatment of the Ray Price hit "I Won't Mention It Again." Even Nicks stepped convincingly out of character, delving deeply into the blues of Etta James' "Sunday Kind of Love." Mitchell capped the evening as spiritual godmother to the women who had preceded her onstage with a stunning update of "Woodstock" that recast its original wide-eyed optimism into a haunting fable that mourned the loss of youthful idealism. If she truly intends to retire from music, as she's been quoted as saying recently, she made it clear that when she does, she's not about to go gentle into that good night. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 10/24/02 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:11:24 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Swingin' Travelogue > > is an orchestra supposed to swing? (rhetorical question) > > > > I personally tend to suscribe to Duke Ellington's famous theory: "It don't > mean a thing if it ain't got that swing". > > sure but isn't that for a jazz band? > Hi Kate, I have a feeling that swingin' applies to a lot more music styles, not just jazz. Perhaps the professional musicians in this list could help since my music theory knowledge is very limited. It seems to me that the difference between a boring and a non-boring music delivery has to do with where the beat is in relation to the rest. And isn't that also the definition of swing/groove? I can't express clearly concepts I don't master, but in essence this would mean that without a heartbeat music is "dead". Help! Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 05:17:05 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Joni solo southern man Bob wrote: <> me too me too! My dream of dreams for Joni doing a solo gig would be the Twee Meter Sessies Studio in Amsterdam. Uncle John can tell us more about that...anything Ive heard from that amazing space is incredible. npimh: sarah mclachlan and venice, not at the same time, but in the same venue as per above. mmmm sweet. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:29:00 -0500 From: vince Subject: NJC wagner vs eminem Julius Raymond wrote: > That bit about Jay-Z you wrote has me feeling you better already.. Still working on Jay-Z's oeuvre... and trying to figure out exactly who Ludacris' "Move Bitch, get out the way" is directed to, and why. > and I said: > > > > I am about to see Wagner's Die Walkure > > which features murder, incest, and racism. Is it a great classic of > > western music or do we judge it by Eminem standards? to which Julius responded: > Um, what? You've lost me. I am waiting for Lynne Cheney and Tipper Gore to unite in having congressional hearings on how Wagner is everything you have said below, and thus his music should be banned, or at the least, warnings must be printed on each album. The old joke about 2LiveCrew is always appropriate: had they said in Italian, they'd be acclaimed as genius on every classical musical station in the country. > You're not defending Wagner now, are you? The > severely disturbed German 19th century composer, author, virulent racist > and anti-Semite, whose operas are rife with thinly veiled racist and > anti-Semitic subtexts? Die Walkure is a "great classic of western music" > like _Mein Kampf_ is a classic of western literature. I am not disagreeing at all, and I am going to see Walkure. It was only in 1997 that I finally went to see Wagner for the first time (someone else bought the ticket) precisely because what you say is correct, if understated, he was literally a father of Nazi culture. But eventually I thought the opera was going to be done anyway whether I went or not and I am always the one who argues that we should experience everything, maybe especially when we know what it is about, and so I saw Flying Dutchman. If Walkure hadn't have been included in the ticket package I got I wouldn't be going and I expect to gather material first hand for the next time I get into an argument with someone who says that Wagner is *not* what you say, and I say, he is. And to be fair, there are people who love Wagner totally for the music, who miss all the other stuff, they just don't hear it not because they block it but because they simply do not hear anything but the music. And then there is James Levine of the Met who champions Wagner purely on a musical basis. Still haven't figured that one out. > I wouldn't be caught > dead at a Wagner performance. Jesus Christ, Vince. That shit is > concentrated evil. I'll confine my sympathy for the devil to the Rolling > Stones tour, thank you. :-) The Stones tour was fine and Jagger sang Sympathy in fine voice. > I mean, Eminem couldn't even pronounce "Wagner." I suspect he could! :-) There is some great musicianship underlying his beats, but there I go getting started again.... > > > With love, if not tenderness, right back at you! Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:56:01 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: re eminem versus vanilla ice NJC I don't know anything about 'Xzibit, Dre, Naz, Obie, Trice, De La Soul, KRS-One, Mos Def, Kweli, Black Thought, Aceyalone, Mystikal or even Common'. I HAVE heard of Gil Scott-Heron, mostly because his grandfather played in goal for Glasgow Celtic. I like his stuff, although I can't remember the name of the album, the one with 'the revolution will not be televised', re-rons, Johannesburg, the bottle etc. Nevertheless I am enjoying the thread very much because it's really wonderful to read the duelling titans, Vince and Julius, using the English language as it should be used, with wonderful clarity, rhetoric, evidence, argument and lucidity. Not interested in the music but I hope this thread goes on and on. Seconds out, round two... mike in bcn NPIMH - Gil S-H 'the revolution will not be televised, the revolution will be LIVE' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:12:15 -0500 From: vince Subject: njc pritchard vs eminem And you live in Barcelona where I understand Eminem won at least 3 MTV-Europe awards last night and performed a new mix of "Cleaning out My Closet" and "Lose Yourself" and from you, no first hand report? The LA JMDLers showed us all how to cover an appearance, and because of your lack of reporting, I have no idea whether Em wore his hood, his cap, or his do-rag! Vince I have "revolution/televised" in a greatest hits cd album of G S-H and somewhere have it on the original album on vinyl but will have to dig it out to know what the album was called. Did his grandfather really play soccer or are you just tricking us? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:43:58 +0100 From: "Moni Kellermann" Subject: Travelogue album edition issue Hi there, I spoke to the guy in charge of promoting the album here in Germany on the phone today. He told me that he has no information of any "special edition" of Travelogue. His info is that the album consists of 2 CDs in a box with 2 booklets, one of the booklets containing paintings. He doesn't know of any CD-ROM. He also said it's unlikely that there would be such an extra version published later as it would be targeted at those folks who buy the album first, so if there were any special edition it would have to come out first, not later. He also mentioned that JM is said to feel "misquoted" in the Rolling Stone interview which may now result to her doing fewer or even no other interviews. In my humble opinion JM should do more interviews, not less. If she can get more stories from different point of views then the whole media would not have to keep on recycling the "misquoted" contents of the RS interview. moni ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:48:01 -0500 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: Re: Travelogue album edition issue What Rolling STone interview? are you referring to the W Magazine interview? thanks, Bill - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moni Kellermann" To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 9:43 AM Subject: Travelogue album edition issue Hi there, I spoke to the guy in charge of promoting the album here in Germany on the phone today. He told me that he has no information of any "special edition" of Travelogue. His info is that the album consists of 2 CDs in a box with 2 booklets, one of the booklets containing paintings. He doesn't know of any CD-ROM. He also said it's unlikely that there would be such an extra version published later as it would be targeted at those folks who buy the album first, so if there were any special edition it would have to come out first, not later. He also mentioned that JM is said to feel "misquoted" in the Rolling Stone interview which may now result to her doing fewer or even no other interviews. In my humble opinion JM should do more interviews, not less. If she can get more stories from different point of views then the whole media would not have to keep on recycling the "misquoted" contents of the RS interview. moni ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:50:16 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Who's breasts are they anyway? 100% JC At a time when many beautiful young women were selling their images on their covers (sorry, Colin, Carly in that nightie on the cover was a sell out) it is important to remember that a few, like Joni, Laura, Janis, Judy, and Joan never did. In fact, the cover of Joan on Farewell Angelina makes here look much less attractive than the beauty she still remains today. Jerry NP: Laura Nyro - Let It Be Me ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:53:16 -0600 From: Subject: Reba, njc > From: CoyoteRick@aol.com > Subject: Re: Stormy Weather - Walden Woods II > I was taken with Reba's performance as well. Never a fan, her stage presence > and voice surprised me. If anyone has recommendations for a Reba LP that is > just a little bit country, let me know. Let me know, too. I am not a big country music fan, though some of it is great stuff, because I find a lot of the songs and singers sound too alike. Once I said to my sister, who sang in a country dance band, that I wasn't impressed by Reba -- that 'anyone' could do what she does (ha! since my days with a musical theatre group I know that it only 'looks' easy; singing and performing well are not easy at all). Then one morning I heard her on the radio belting out a blues tune that knocked my socks off -- whoa! that's Reba? I gasped -- and I've seen Ms. Macintyre in a new light ever since. If anyone happens to know what album contains some bluesy stuff, please let me know and I'll finally go out and buy one of Reba's. Kate du Nord ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:54:49 -0500 From: Subject: Re: wow, such judgement njc Years ago in that small city of > Amarillo we would sit closely to > the ladies of the night at a local Denny's, > after a night of carousing. > Rather liked them. Funny you should mention that. I wrote a song once after going to a Denny's in Atlanta at about one in the morning, about a mysterious girl I saw sitting at a table all by herself. She may have been a lady of the night but I'm thinking she probably wasn't as she seemed to have this angelic glow about her...thus the song "Accidental Angel." (which will be on forthcoming cd) You're right though...life is for living and learning. Victor in Decatur ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:56:06 -0500 From: Subject: Re: the jonifest tapes njc > and what songbird gives us the ever so > lovely 'give yourself to love?' is > this an original tune by she or something > borrowed? Kate Campbell... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:08:03 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: the jonifest tapes njc Thanks Victor. Don't remember reading her name before. Is that her tune? mack > Kate Campbell... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:08:23 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Fw: Reba, njc If anyone happens to know what album contains some bluesy stuff, please let me know and I'll finally go out and buy one of Reba's. Kate du Nord I like Reba, but with her I buy the greatest his CDs. She has three of them out. The first is country, the other two she gets away from her country roots. If you like blues though, you should here Patsy Cline. For a country star she did a lot of blues songs. I like country artist, but you are right many sound the same. But it's the old money game, if it works copy it:) KaseyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:23:52 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: thinking of women NJC Have you noticed that when a lesbian shows up..she is always fem or even super fem...not that I mind.....but the opposite extreme of fem is rarely portrayed? YES...I often find the lingo crude and rude... >men get a lot of flack too for behaving 'gay'. Watch any tv program and >listen to the words men use about other men(and women use to). >In fact there is a lot of nme calling which has sexist/mysoginist >overtones. > > NP Pat Metheny  Trio 99-00..love Pat...bree > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:27:56 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni solo Muller writes: << When I think back to the hype given to "comebacks" like Bonnie Raitt, Carlos Santana, Eric Clapton, etc, I think our Joni would be given much the same treatment >> NORMA DESMOND: "'Comeback'! I hate that word. It's a 'return'." --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:27:36 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Travelogue album edition issue Moni Kellermann wrote: > Hi there, > > I spoke to the guy in charge of promoting the album here in Germany on the > phone today. > He told me that he has no information of any "special edition" of > Travelogue. > His info is that the album consists of 2 CDs in a box with 2 booklets, one > of the booklets containing paintings. He doesn't know of any CD-ROM. He also > said it's unlikely that there would be such an extra version published later > as it would be targeted at those folks who buy the album first, so if there > were any special edition it would have to come out first, not later. I've seen three separate editions online. One plain 2 cd, one with special booklet, and one with enhanced cd. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:00:12 -0800 From: Ken Corral Subject: LA Times Review of Stormy Weather II Here is a link to the LA Times review of Stormy Weather II. Online edition has a photo of Nora Jones. Print Edition has a picture of Joni and Deborah Cox http://www.calendarlive.com/music/cl-et-lewis15nov15.story ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:30:54 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: njc pritchard vs eminem Indeed I do live here but didn't attend, though I did see Norah Jones and the Mingus Big Band here over the last 10 days (so-so and excellent respectively). I don't have mtv but i can assure you that he wore a white sleeveless cotton top and a white woolen hat with the nike swoosh over what seems to be a black baseball cap. In the photo I can't see his trousers or trainers. Linguistic note: 'rapper' in Catalan is written 'raper'. Strange, eh? mike - ----- Original Message ----- From: "vince" To: "mike pritchard" Cc: ; "list" Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 3:12 PM Subject: njc pritchard vs eminem > And you live in Barcelona where I understand Eminem won at least 3 > MTV-Europe awards last night and performed a new mix of "Cleaning out My > Closet" and "Lose Yourself" and from you, no first hand report? > > The LA JMDLers showed us all how to cover an appearance, and because of > your lack of reporting, I have no idea whether Em wore his hood, his > cap, or his do-rag! > > Vince > > > I have "revolution/televised" in a greatest hits cd album of G S-H and > somewhere have it on the original album on vinyl but will have to dig it > out to know what the album was called. Did his grandfather really play > soccer or are you just tricking us? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:41:16 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: thinking of women NJC Colin wrote >>men get a lot of flack too for behaving 'gay'. Watch any tv program and listen to the words men use about other men(and women use to). In fact there is a lot of nme calling which has sexist/mysoginist overtones.<< Yes, I agree. I think too that gay men are treated as (dis)honorary women in these cases. Do any of you(se) out there remember the part in Glengarry Glen Ross where Pacino rips into Spacey for losing him a client? Although Pacino uses the 'C' word (has four letters and rhymes with 'front', except in Australia) the strongest insult Pacino can throw at Spacey is, if I remember correctly, the final word. "You 'girl'". mike in bcn - music city. NP Courtney Pine. The Vision's Tale. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:50:01 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: environmental causes njc Very nice that Don is doing what he is but would rather he spend that time and influence at home as Texas is quickly becoming a large cesspool. Rainforests disappearing in S. America and trees going down here in Texas in record numbers. Soon, nothing will be left but air pollution and fields trampled down by cattle. The tip of the iceberg. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:47:58 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: thinking of women NJC mike pritchard wrote: Colin wrote In fact there is a lot of nme calling which has sexist/mysoginist overtones.<< and then Mike wrote: Yes, I agree. I think too that gay men are treated as (dis)honorary women in these cases. Do any of you(se) out there remember the part in Glengarry Glen Ross where Pacino rips into Spacey for losing him a client? Although Pacino uses the 'C' word (has four letters and rhymes with 'front', except in Australia) the strongest insult Pacino can throw at Spacey is, if I remember correctly, the final word. "You 'girl'". and now Miss Mags.... Yea, the old slinging of girlie girl arrows is alive and well as we speak...and while growing up as the somewhat athletic person that i am...it was all to common to be told that I "threw like a girl". I know we/ve covered this topic before and that said, it never can be raised too many times imho...awareness is like that and it's far too easy to become...comfortably numb. Insults come in the strangest ways sometimes. Using various names of female anatomy are yet another way of slamming boys to men as well. Go figure. Mags np: Vicki Genfan, Outside the Box, brilliant guitarist, vocalist... thank you Claudia ! NP Courtney Pine. The Vision's Tale. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:50:47 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: 'Give yourself to love?' NJC mack watson-bush wrote: >and what songbird gives us the ever so lovely 'give yourself to love?' is >this an original tune by she or something borrowed? Surely the song by the late and much-lamented Kate Wolf. She was truly California gold. - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:56:58 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: thinking of women NJC Bree Mcdonough wrote: > Have you noticed that when a lesbian shows up..she is always fem or even > super fem...not that I mind.....but the opposite extreme of fem is rarely > portrayed? YES...I often find the lingo crude and rude.. Generally speaking, yes. Which of course so untrue in life. we all know lesbians wear dungerees and have very short hair, smoke and pit and have tatoos. And gay men are all limp wristed hairdressers or drag queens. Being more serious, I always get a kick out of people's faecal expressions when they realise that John is my partner. It totally throws them. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:01:14 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: thinking of women NJC > the strongest insult Pacino can throw at Spacey is, if I remember > correctly, the final word. "You 'girl'". In our soceties, feminine traits are ostracised severely in male children, so to be called a 'girl' is a deep insult. Stupid and sad. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:06:22 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: LA Times Review of Stormy Weather II In a message dated 11/15/2002 10:55:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, spyboy@earthlink.net writes: > http://www.calendarlive.com/music/cl-et-lewis15nov15.story > Thanks for the link Ken. I wish the online edition showed a photo of Joni, but at least Kakki gave a little fashion review. AND good to see you back Ken. Talk about old timers :~) We got a post from both you and Phyllis in one day. Glad you LA JMDLers are back among the living. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:07:03 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Who's breasts are they anyway? 100% JC Jerry Notaro wrote: > At a time when many beautiful young women were selling their images on > their covers (sorry, Colin, Carly in that nightie on the cover was a > sell out) Carly did sexy covers from the beginning. The sexiest being Anticipation ,No Secrets,Playing Possum, Bogs In The Trees. The most stunning photograph wise were head shots on her first G.Hits album and on Hello Big Man. She is very photogenic. bw colin ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #492 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)