From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #490 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, November 14 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 490 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: thinking of women (NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] RE: thinking of women NJC ["Jerry Notaro" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #489 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #489 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: Stormy Weather - Walden Woods II [FMYFL@aol.com] NJC vanilla ice vs eminem ["Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ] RE: Stormy Weather - Walden Woods II ["Maggie McNally" ] Re: Cookbook ["Lori Fye" ] Article says Joni's calling it quits ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] joni's nod to bob ["Kate Bennett" ] Stormy Weather - Walden Woods II ["Kate Bennett" ] Buy "Shadows and Light" from http://www.amazon.co.uk ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(] My band, Stryngs. CD almost recorded (NJC) ["Chris Marshall" ] wow, such judgement njc ["mack watson-bush" ] RE: Article says Joni's calling it quits ["Chris Marshall" ] Re: Article says Joni's calling it quits [Susan Guzzi ] What Nonesuch Records is trying to say.... ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:19:28 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: thinking of women (NJC) Yael wrote: > and i just want to suggest that there are better ways to critique > britney/madonna/christina a - both their music and their marketing - > than labeling them as "sluts" and "whores" and "bimbos". Interesting that you should bring this up, Yael. Just Tuesday night I attended a Janis Ian performance, and Janis was remarking on Britney. She was saying that she had no problem with Britney's youth, et cetera, and the punchline was Janice muttering nearly quietly, "Slut." Of course the audience cracked up. Considering Janis and all that she stands for, she might find it interesting to read your opinions (with which I agree, btw). Her email address is janis@janisian.com, if you would like to write to her. Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:26:07 -0500 From: "Jerry Notaro" Subject: RE: thinking of women NJC -----Original Message----- From: Mike Pritchard [mailto:ink08@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 2:16 PM To: joni@smoe.org Cc: AzeemAK@aol.com; yael@alumni.brown.edu; notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu Subject: Re: thinking of women NJC but while I'm on the subject, let's not confuse 'race' with 'colour' either. mike in barcelona [Jerry Notaro] Not confusing it at all. He was criticized for being Caucasian, which according to Webster's Third New International Dictionary means he is " a member of the white race." Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:34:11 -0500 From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #489 > Sweetheart Like You - Bob Dylan Judy Collins did this one on her Judy Sings Dylan CD. Really excellent. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:40:36 -0500 From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #489 > But he did say Joni was far and away the most into what she was > doing. He said he felt more from her singing than all the > others combined. > Whew! How was the quality of her voice? Still hanging in there? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:17:29 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Stormy Weather - Walden Woods II Thanks so much Kakki and Rick for the great review of the Stormy Weather concert!!! It sounds like Joni did another great job. I was so close to going since I was in Las Vegas at the time, but it just wasn't in the cards. Does anyone know if this was recorded for some promo like when AT&T sponsored it in '98? I still LOVE that years benefit, but it sounds like this one was equally great. So Phyllis, now that you're back on the list and had the VIP seats at the concert, I'm looking forward to your review. Oh, and a Happy Happy Birthday to Coyote Rick Hobbs who turns 68 today (not the 13th Kate). You still look pretty good for such an old man Rick :~) Jimmy, who's glad to be home again. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:28:32 -0500 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: NJC vanilla ice vs eminem Odd little side debate that has shown up... Vanilla Ice was a marketing scheme, like having Pat Boone cover Little Richard songs, in an attempt to make rap salable to white suburban kids. There was no talent there, nothing real, and when it turned out that Vanilla Ice's whole biography was a lie and that he was a rich kid, he was gone. Vanilla Ice was just a babble, a solo boy band, a solo N'Sync or Backstreet Boy. White suburban kids bought rap heavily anyway. Eminem arose from the very gritty urban streets of Detroit and reached where he has because of his talent. He is respected by the African American community because he is real, because he has worked his way up the ladder because of his talent. And this is where rap music transcends the color barrier. And that is why Chris Rock has commented that the apocalypse is upon us because the world's best golfer (Tiger Woods) is black and the world's best rapper (Em) is white. Em has a great following in the African American community because he has street cred. It helped of course that Dr Dre was Em's producer and this was another verification of Em's "street cred", street credibility, that he was real and not a white kid slumming. Having Dr. Dre's approval is the ultimate stamp of what is real. And of course Em being Em, he makes ample reference to these facts in his song "White America." "and kids flipped when they knew I was produced by Dre.... Look at these eyes, baby, blue, baby just like yourself, if they were brown, Shady lose, Shady sits on the shelf... if I were black, i wouldn't have sold half, I didn't have to graduate from Lincoln High School to know that..." In 8 Mile, the Jimmy Rabbit Smith chartacter is mocked for being white and told he should join Vanilla Ice. But Rabbit responds with embarcing his poor urban upbringing ("I am trailer trash") and that he is from the streets, and that his oppoinent, Papa Doc, is really a rich (although) black kid from Cranbrook (a la di da high school for the suburban upper crust) and that even Papa Doc's parents were happily married. The audience instantly goes over to Em's Rabbit character because he is the one with street cred (something Vanilla Ice never had ever). Sounds like a movie, to be sure, but it is based on reality. There is a division between East Coast rap and West Coast rap, gansta and thug rap vs hip hop rap, and right now a lot of the rap groups that have hit in big are rapping about cars and jewels and mansions. Eminem is allied with neither coast and keeps his rap, as they say, real. Which is why rappers like Xzibit, Dre, Naz, Obie Trice, and others are more than happy to work with white boy Em, because he is real. I find myself amazed at how much I know about rap. By the way, one of the really neat things about 8 Mile is how whites and blacks interact. In the rap world, it is a whole differenmt way than in society as a whole. As far as race relations goes, rappers have it all over the rest of us. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:35:26 -0500 From: "Erica L. Trudelle" Subject: re: thinking of women and Joni Right ON!!! I couldn't have said it better myself!!!!!! Sex will always have it's place with rock music but what is too much, when does it become too much, Christina Agularia LOOKS like a whore, no one can deny it, of couse she isn't a whore, but she has to know what type of visual image she's sending with the videos and photo shoots. They aren't tastefully done, she's obviously selling her sexuality. I don't put Madonna in this same catagory, although she's the master at using her sexuality to make $$$$$$$$$. >>>As a woman and as someone guilty of using "whore" and "bimbo" to describe britney and christina I can say that I respect your decision to not do so. Your post was intelligent and conscientous but I call it like I see it. Of course these words in our vernacular are disparaging towards women but what is worse is that our society continues to acknowlegdge a woman's physical beauty above all else. Do you think that these two girls would make any money for themselves or for their lables if they didn't dress and writhe all over the place like they do? If christna and britney had any kind of intellect and cared about what their images may be projecting than maybe they wouldn't pose on the cover of rolling stone with nothing on or make music videos full of sexual innuendoes and soft-core pornography. There are many women today who make quality music without these tactics, they may be less known, but at least they respect themselves and their art. They wouldn't be called bimbos or whores because they are not and they make sure they don't come across that way. I don't respect either of these girls, their music is crap, and their images are screwing up the collective conscience of many teen age girls who think they need to act this way or look this way because it is fed to them 24 hours a day in magazines, on the TV and in the news. It is no surprise that Joni wants out of this business either, although I feel she could record and produce and distribute her own music without losing her core audience she may just be disgusted with the whole industry. I certainly am. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:55:24 -0600 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: Cookbook not to beat a dead horse, but jerry sent me the files for the cookbook. if anyone wants a copy, just let me know. cindy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:13:34 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: Stormy Weather - Walden Woods II > Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:04:05 -0800 > From: "kakki" > Subject: Stormy Weather - Walden Woods II > > Just got back from the Stormy Weather benefit...for the finale JONI doing "Woodstock", "What's A Sweetheart > Like You Doing > in a Dump Like This?" (not kidding - is this a Waits or > Newman song?? Interesting choice of song, and not surprising that you would wonder whether it was Waits...Dylan seemed to have taken a page out of TW's book when he created that gem of a song. and > then a big surprise "Chinese Cafe". Oh how special this must have been! Thanks for the report for those (many) of us would couldn't be there. Maggie McNally [don't faint that I've actually posted] NP: Monk - Body and Soul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:35:41 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The sound of me fainting...NJC In a message dated 11/14/2002 4:29:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, mm@celebrityseries.org writes: > Well, aren't you the one who so famously sang "talk to me" > that night so > long ago in the Catskills? I am. And aren't YOU the one with the famous BROTHER! LOL! Bob NP: Luka Bloom, "Sunny Sailor Boy" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:26:55 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Who's breasts are they anyway? 100% JC Joni recently made a sarcastic remark about getting a choreographer and going bare-breasted to uhh... inflate her sales. Wait a minute. Isn't she barebreasted on the cover of "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter"? For those without the LP jacket, on the cover there are at least 2 Jonis. The first one is "Art Nouveau", the African-American guy wearing a white vest a jacket. The second is the artist herself wearing a long, black dress. At the waistline is a white bird. Below the waistline, there's a red balloon-animal. Beside the red balloon is a photo of a female figure with her right elbow over her head and her left hand on her hip. I know boobs when I see 'em and there are two! Did we ever resolve whether it's a model or uhmmm... the artist herself? It may be small on a CD "coverlet" but there's nothing ambiguous about it on the LP jacket. Lama PS, Is Art doing magic? I think he's pulling doves out of something. Is that what everyone else sees too or is it some kind of ink-blot test? np: "The Hissing Of Summer Lawns" on primo Japanese vinyl. I've died and gone to heaven. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:49:01 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Cookbook Looking through the recipes in the Cookbook, kindly forwarded by Jerry ... One of the best parts is seeing the names and reading the bios of so many long-time and long-ago JMDLers! And, though I never met him, here are sweet (well, savory since his recipes are such) memories of Kenny Grant! Amazing and beautiful, this. No wonder Joni enjoys it so. Thanks again, everyone who worked so hard to put this together -- especially Marian and Jerry! Lori ~ http://lrfye.lunarpages.com ~ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:51:26 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Cookbook Okay, thanks to Jerry's continued efforts I finally got to see the cover ... thanks also to Don Rowe and Marilyn Urbanski! Awesome. Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:56:25 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Article says Joni's calling it quits I think Bennett's on to something. What if Joni did a barebones project. Just one instrument and voice. No production. Just one project that's just demo-like simplicity. Would you buy it? Lama Kate Bennett of www.katebennett.com said, in part: >>>> ...remember when you recorded with just a vocal & guitar/piano? & blew us all away...c'mon...you still have a lot to say...>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:37:36 -0800 From: "RSM" Subject: Re: Who's breasts are they anyway? 100% JC There are breast and then there are breasts, doncha think? I frankly do not remember people buying DJRD or FTR because there is some hot chick nekked on the/in the album cover. Some nudity is designed to titillate and some is not. Kinda like Hefner pointing to Reubens and saying: "I am doing the same thing that he did!" It does not take much insight to see that JM is an artist saying something using the human form and Brittany and Ricky Martin are shaking their bon bons to cause a baser reaction. Not to say that I don't enjoy the latter, just that I can see a difference. That's my story and I am sticking to it. Ron - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama)" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 2:26 PM Subject: Who's breasts are they anyway? 100% JC > Joni recently made a sarcastic remark about getting a choreographer and > going bare-breasted to uhh... inflate her sales. > > Wait a minute. Isn't she barebreasted on the cover of "Don Juan's Reckless > Daughter"? > > For those without the LP jacket, on the cover there are at least 2 Jonis. > The first one is "Art Nouveau", the African-American guy wearing a white > vest a jacket. The second is the artist herself wearing a long, black > dress. At the waistline is a white bird. Below the waistline, there's a > red balloon-animal. Beside the red balloon is a photo of a female figure > with her right elbow over her head and her left hand on her hip. > > I know boobs when I see 'em and there are two! Did we ever resolve whether > it's a model or uhmmm... the artist herself? It may be small on a CD > "coverlet" but there's nothing ambiguous about it on the LP jacket. > > Lama > > PS, Is Art doing magic? I think he's pulling doves out of something. Is > that what everyone else sees too or is it some kind of ink-blot test? > > > np: "The Hissing Of Summer Lawns" on primo Japanese vinyl. I've died and > gone to heaven. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:07:16 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: joni's nod to bob very interesting song choice (of all songs in the world to choose from) i agree! nice nod to bob by joni & it could be she relates to it in many ways...given her experience & disdain for the biz it fits...also very interesting choice considering how the last verse relates to the present state of the world... "They say that patriotism is the last refuge To which a scoundrel clings. Steal a little and they throw you in jail, Steal a lot and they make you king. There's only one step down from here, baby, It's called the land of permanent bliss. What's a sweetheart like you doin' in a dump like this?" ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:07:15 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Stormy Weather - Walden Woods II thanks kakki & rick for the concert reports...i cannot believe that you had to wait 2 hours past the 8pm starting time! i'd have been quite upset if i'd come from sb & had to wait that long! some bad planning & imo pretty insensitive management... but it sounds like it was a great show...yay for stevie doing so well & for joni getting such loving & supportive audience feedback!!!! & personally, how cool to hear that she did woodstock as a finale!!!!!!! i feel so....um....validated! lol.... ps...i have not listened to a lick of the t'log (love that abbrev too) songs online...sounds like it was not a very good idea for the record company to do that when the audio quality of the record, from all reports, is so good & in this case absoultely critical to the recording... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:57:40 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Buy "Shadows and Light" from http://www.amazon.co.uk Buy this book from the UK: http://www.amazon.co.uk "Shadows and Light: The Definitive Biography" from Virgin Books Ltd., London 2001 I hear it's in a second printing. Can someone hook a brother up with a book deal? Lama ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 00:53:36 -0000 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: My band, Stryngs. CD almost recorded (NJC) Hey all, Long time no post, been busy lurking in the background though. Some of you who were at Jonifest 2002 know that I'm in a band back here in the UK. It consists of myself (bass), Martin Giles (accomplished guitarist and all round musician, also UK JMDL) and an exquisitely talented lyricist, Sarah Stringer. Many of the UK JMDL folk, and a few of the US ones have already experienced Sarah's lyrics and wonderful voice. I'm extremely happy to report that this last Monday and Tuesday were spent profitably in a top flight London recording studio, recording 11 tracks for a forthcoming album, which we suspect will be titled "The Thrill Of Maintaining Momentum". There are some final finishing touches to come: guitar overdubs, some drums, harmonies, and so on, but the bulk of the material is recorded (digitally too: this'll be a DDD CD I think). I have to say that my first time in the studio was at the same time very satisfying and incredibly stressful! Day one was a 12 hour stint, day 2 coming in at 6 hours, but I'd never have guessed at how draining the whole thing would be. That said, it's so damn exciting to see this stuff heading for a properly recorded, mixed and mastered CD. Just the raw mix in the studio sounds amazing, so the CD itself should be soemthing else. I can't wait. For those that are interested, there's a website coming soon at www.stryngs.com (pronounced "Strings", but someone else already has that.) In the next few days, I'll get a mailing list sign up sorted out on the site. I'll stop short of self-aggrandisement, but I'll say this: I think you'll all quite like it :) Cheers, - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:03:57 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: My band, Stryngs. CD almost recorded (NJC) In a message dated 11/14/2002 7:53:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris@secure-si.co.uk writes: > I'll stop short of self-aggrandisement, but I'll say > this: I think you'll all quite like it :) > Why stop there, big man? :~) Thanks for the update Chris, and congratulations on the project nearing the end of the gestation project...keep us posted as you know there are many slutty types out here who have to have it all! I guess the "NJC" means "No Joni Covers"? :~( Bob NP: Joni, "You're So Square" Wantaugh NY 7/24/83 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:07:04 -0500 From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC vanilla ice vs eminem For the life of me I can't understand your reverence for marshall mathers, Vince. I've listened to as much as I can stomach of him, but I find very little entertaining, insightful or redeeeming about his act. I'm a life-long member of the black community and *I'm* not down with this guy, nor are most of my black friends. In fact, I abhor his brand of misogynistic, homophobic vapidity. Your generalization about what the black community "respects" is a grievous oversimplification, in my opinion. And it's not that I don't like rap...give me De La Soul, Gil Scott Heron, KRS-One, Mos Def, Kweli, Black Thought, Aceyalone, Mystikal or even Common...all infinitely more gifted than Mathers. What other rap artists are you spinning? Is the white rapper the only one you can identify with? Are you suggesting that this guy somehow embodies the genre? I think not. > And that is why Chris Rock has commented that the apocalypse is upon us because the world's best golfer (Tiger > > Woods) is black and the world's best rapper(Em) is white. Them's just jokes, Vince! Undoubtedly Mathers is the most commercially successful rap-doer at present, but let's not confuse cd sales figures with artistic gifted-ness. That would be like comparing Kenny G to Coltrane, if you'll excuse a jazz allusion. Even Mathers has said in one of his songs that "I am the worse thing since Elvis Presley/To do black music so selfishly/and use it to get myself wealthy." The man is fronting - simply appropriating a black music form, self-indulgently adding a psychotic spin and regurgitating his white-washed versions to the masses. A travesty as old as original African-American art forms themselves. > By the way, one of the really neat things about 8 Mile is how whites and blacks interact. In the rap world, it >is a whole differenmt way than in society as a whole. As far as race relations goes, rappers have it all over >the rest of us. You know what? I could make a movie wherein the lamb lies down with the lion, the eagle flies with the dove and the ebony keys perform in a harmonizing, arm-in-arm chorus line with the ivory ones, but that doesn't make it gospel. Your contention that rap music is some kind of bastion of racial tolerance is nothing short of delusional. Movies are manipulation. >It helped of course that Dr Dre was Em's producer and this was another verification of Em's "street cred", street >credibility, that he was real and not a white kid slumming. Having Dr. Dre's approval is the ultimate stamp of what is real. And of course Em being Em, he makes ample referenceto these facts in his song "White America." Have you stopped to think that Dr. Dre might be about the money rather than credibility? That he might see it as poetic justice that he's making a fortune off Mathers just as Clive Davis is making a mint off Alicia Keys and white "producers" have from made fortunes off the artistry of black musicians for centuries? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that whites buy rap in much larger proportions than blacks and that a white rap act would reap huge sales in the white community. Let's keep it real here. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 01:37:26 -0000 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: My band, Stryngs. CD almost recorded (NJC) Yesserie Bob, I'm afraid NJC does indeed mean "No Joni Covers". However, with the songwriting skills on board (award-winning poet) we should do OK without :-) - --Chris > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On > Behalf Of SCJoniGuy@aol.com > Sent: 15 November 2002 01:04 > To: chris@secure-si.co.uk; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: My band, Stryngs. CD almost recorded (NJC) > > > In a message dated 11/14/2002 7:53:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, > chris@secure-si.co.uk writes: > > > I'll stop short of self-aggrandisement, but I'll say > > this: I think you'll all quite like it :) > > > > Why stop there, big man? :~) Thanks for the update Chris, and > congratulations > on the project nearing the end of the gestation > project...keep us posted as > you know there are many slutty types out here who have to > have it all! > > I guess the "NJC" means "No Joni Covers"? :~( > > Bob > > NP: Joni, "You're So Square" Wantaugh NY 7/24/83 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:16:29 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: DED njc One can crawl inside her mind here and stay forever. The emotions and thoughts that her words evoke can only serve to make the lucky listener better, stronger, and wiser. mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:25:44 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: wow, such judgement njc When initially came here figured this was a land of grownup flower children. All this talk of sluts, whores, and bimbos has me thinking what kind of judgement is this? Guess by some standards Janis would be considered a whore. I remember hearing similar words to describe her way back when. I, for one, don't care who is doing whom and how often they do it. None of my business. Though guilty of judgement myself in far too many matters; have to strive to not be so. Years ago in that small city of Amarillo we would sit closely to the ladies of the night at a local Denny's, after a night of carousing. Rather liked them. 'there's a lot to be said for the working girl.'-missy Purported self serving stars, in whatever venue, will get no rancor from me. Like Janis said "get it while you can." mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:19:42 -0000 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: Article says Joni's calling it quits Lama asked:- > I think Bennett's on to something. What if Joni did a > barebones project. Just one instrument and voice. No > production. Just one project that's just demo-like > simplicity. Would you buy it? I'd be there like a shot. I'd even allow her two instruments and a touch of *subtle* percussion. ...as long as she didn't use either:- (a) a goddam VG-8. I'd prefer a real acoustic guitar. (b) Larry Klein (ducks, runs for cover) - --Chris If your name's M. Paz, ignore point (a). If your name's L. Klein, ignore point (b). Point (a) optional. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:50:30 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: the jonifest tapes njc and what songbird gives us the ever so lovely 'give yourself to love?' is this an original tune by she or something borrowed? irregardless, she owns it now, in my mind. mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:44:51 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Article says Joni's calling it quits One of my favorite sayings is "Less is More." Absolutely I would buy it! Isn't this the way most of us Joni "lifers" discovered her: STAS, Clouds, LOTC - and of course Blue! As much as we loved the gradual integration of jazz and instrumentation and production - well until DED at least ;-P - one voice - one instrumet is where SHE can be heard best. Also marketing wise this could be a way to get a lot of attention and sales and recognition. In fact if Joni did walk away in this dramatic fashion and went off and took to the refuge of the roads or went to Amsterdam or Rome or took a walk a park a bridge a tree a river - well you get the picture ... perhaps she could get inspired to write some new material about the twighlight of her career or life. Then secretly hide away in a studio and record everything her way and play with it and tweak it and ... Voila! The come back kid with plenty of fanfare and press - OH Joni let me handle this for you! It will be the biggest marketing scheme since New Coke! You may say I'm a dreamer ... Peace, Susan NP: Rickie Lee/ Girl At the Volcano/Rainbow Sleeves (what was once lost is found!) - --- "Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama)" wrote: > I think Bennett's on to something. What if Joni did a barebones project. > Just one instrument and voice. No production. Just one project that's just > demo-like simplicity. Would you buy it? > > Lama > > Kate Bennett of www.katebennett.com > said, in part: > >>>> > ...remember when you recorded with just a vocal & > guitar/piano? & blew us all away...c'mon...you still have a lot to > say...>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:59:52 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: NJC vanilla ice vs eminem Julius, if we all liked the same thing, it would be boring. I disagree with your assessment of Em's music and his lyrics. What else to I listen to? I have listened to it all from the beginning, as I was living in a very urban section of Kalamazoo when rap hit the airwaves. I wouldn't term G S-H rap, by the way, although I think he is the real first rapper. Anyway, currently in my personal heavy rotation is Ludacris, Xzibit, Jay-Z and Obie Trice and I rather resent the implication that I only like the rapper who is white. That I do resent.. Chris Rock's joke is funny because of the truth in it. Eminem, in my opinion, isn't fronting, but he does flip it all right back, hence the quote you make from "Without Me." Anyone can make a movie about anything, yes. So you use that generalization to rip a movie you have not seen. And you call me delusional. And obviously I cannot speak for the black community and I do apologize for sounding like I was, if that is how it came across. While my home is right now in rural western Michigan, I spend a lot of time in Detroit, Chicago, and my old neighborhood in Kalamazoo. In my experience, let me say as a qualifier, in my personal and direct experience, the African American community here has embraced Em as real. Perhaps it is because Michigan is his home state and he is known here well. The wonderful thing about Eminem is that he has brought audiences together that have been separate for way too many years. When I saw Em in concert this summer, it was far and away the most mixed audience I have been in since Sly and the Family Stone and that was in 1970. It was good to see such a mixed audience again. You may call it delusional, call me delusional as you did, my friend, but the delusion is in thinking that music cannot bring people together. The people here that I know, my experience of the black community, is that Em is the man. Again, this may be a Michigan thing. The charge that Em is fronting to rip off black music does offend me because I have following this guy's career for a number of years and I simply don't see it. Make that charge against Pat Boone, against Vanilla Ice, against a lot of folks, it would be true. But there is something different about Eminem, and that is my opinion, based on my experience, and I am sticking with it. And maybe his legendary (in Michigan) generosity with those with whom he came up with has an impact on my opinion. He hasn't gone white. Dre is out for making money, sure. Aren't we all. He isn't going to produce someone with no talent. Dre has not been Svengali to a witless talentless white boy to front for sales, he took on a very talented rapper who happens to be white. Dre doesn't need a white rapper to make money, if that is his sole goal. Nelly makes his damned good living off of suburban whites, and Tag Team and Sir Mixalot have certainly shown there are megabucks to be made from rap marketed to white kids by black rappers. All rap sales have been 75% white - Tupac and Biggy knew that too, and a part of the whole thug thing was to make the rap the exotic and dangerous lure for white kids. Let's keep it real here. Your comment on Alicia Keys - that same point is by Obie Trice on the 8 Mile soundtrack about Lauryn Hill, "she stopped making music with beats...". It just so happens that Em is one hell of a rapper and he is white. The surprising thing may have been that it has taken so long for a white rap star to emerge, given that Blondie was rapping back in the early 80s. It took so long, I think, because the one who was to break through was going to be damned, damned good, and Em is. And hell, Julius, all American music as we know it comes from black sources. Name it -rock, jazz, tell em an American music form that doesn't have African American roots. Can no white person play jazz? can no white person sing the blues? (Well, maybe not well) Can no white person sing Johnny B. Goode? At what point does it cease being race music and become part of the culture for all? When can a white person rap? Was it the same crime when Joni sang Mingus? How long do you keep the music limited to one racial group? If music doesn't broaden us and bring people together then what the fuck good is it? The real problem, that neither one of us responded to, was the person who posted this week that rap wasn't music at all, which is a huge denial of a music form that arose from the streets. That to me was racist. That's where your argument may be, not with me, I humbly suggest. I am offering a validation of rap as real music. Hey, when Mary J. Blige sings, I don't think race, I think, raw, pure, total talent. I get the same feeling from Eminem. And the same was true for Elvis. Except Elvis left the black community behind. Em has continued to work with the people he knew in the day, His values are old school. He has not gone white. He is still hood. Whenever someone says, "Have you stopped to think..." I know the insult is there, you are saying, i don't think. Hell, Julius, I am a 50 year old gay man who has seasons tickets for the Lyric Opera and spend time on the streets, I've been to street corner battles, I have lived in the hood , I am not predisposed to rap, but I heard it all the time from my neighbors, my clients, my friends, and I got into it. I can never be black, but I can be very intentional and serious about the music I like and the music I tout and the genius that I recognize. The best bass in the last century was not some European star, it was Paul Robeson. One can argue Leotyne Price at the top of her field. Music transcends race. the best rapper is white. And in the end, I am sick unto death of the old tired charges against Em's lyrics. Mike in barcelona has just shown us a whole slew of music that contains violent images. I am about to see Wagner's Die Walkure which features murder, incest, and racism. Is it a great classic of western music or do we judge it by Eminem standards? Em would win that - - look to all of the words on all the album before you pick and pull out of context. Yeah, Stan is a violent lunatic who desperately needs help and kills his girlfriend - and Stan is not the hero, in Em's own voice he warns that the guy needs help, that he needs to control to anger, that he has to stop acting out - Today in my office was a young woman beaten by her boyfriend, badly, this woman a member of the wedding party of Gage's mother, and I know that the violence against Robin was done by some Stan-like idiot, the whole scene probably sounded like the track Kim - and I wish I could grab that fucker and make him listen to Eminem who tells the world that people who commit violence against women are losers, that it hs to stop, that it is sickness, it must stop. Oh, but those anti-violence lyrics, Em's real words on that subject are never broadcast because then Lynne Chenny and Tipper Gore and Joe Lieberman and all the watchdogs of our morals from the Christian right wouldn't be able to pillory Eminem - who is a target because he is white, they haven't the guts to take on Ludacris and risk charges of racism so they go after the white guy - and demonize by pulling out a line here, a line there, out of context. You have bought into the American Family Association Christian right Lynne Cheney fund raising cries of alarm about bad, bad Eminem. Em opened his last tour with clips of all the congressional hearing where he was denounced over and over and over for the same tired old things. (The New Yorker suggests their real opposition to Em is in his bridging racial barriers in a way that is not Bush like.) The irony is, everyone worked up over Em, and maybe they should have been a bit more worried about Al Queda... but that doesn't get nice coverage on the evening news until after September 11th. Attacking Em did. In the end, Julius, you may despise Em for any reason. I can't really get into jazz or country. We all have our things where it doesn't work for us. And we haven't always had the deepest and lengthiest of conversations, but we have always been cool together. I do resent the implication of my having a preference for Em because he is white - hell, I have seen Xzibit and Ludacris and Executioner and Bionic Jive too, this past summer, and seen my share of my black rappers, who I like a lot, and I saw the Rolling Stones who made their fortune mining black music. But the Stones have done it with an all white band. Em continues to work with his homies. Let's get real as you say, Despise Em for whatever reason you want. And if your obviously far more real experience in your community brings you into contact with people who feel differently than my contacts, maybe again, it is a Michigan thing, or just that I am hanging with people with whom I share common opinions, as you are. But I stand by my opinion that the man is a genius, a master, a person who transcends in his word play and in his music. And I respect him because he always credits those with whom he has developed his craft, In his own world, he has street cred. At least that is so. For the rest, again, if we all liked the same things, how fucking dull the world would be, and the ability to exchange the frankest of opinions in this forum is a testimony to the strength of this community and as you disagree with me, so I disagree with you, but i trust we remain embraced in friendship for the things we hold in common and our common love of life. I bear you no ill will Julius for taking me to task, I have responded, and as they say, Peace Out! Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:00:30 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: What Nonesuch Records is trying to say.... Is it just me? I can't read the text on the Nonesuch site! I saved the TRAVELOGUE page, reverse engineered it in Front Page, and cleaned it up. It's mostly stuff we already know but at least now it's easy to read. Amazingly, if there's a hard-cover booklet or pictures on the CDs, the site does NOT mention them. I just put ALBUM TITLES and FILM TITLES in caps and stripped out the tags. Who loves you guys? Lama >>>>>> With the dazzling aplomb of an idea whose time has come, TRAVELOGUE , the long-awaited new Joni Mitchell double CD release on Nonesuch Records, re-imagines twenty-two essential selections from the trove of this legendary artists expansive repertoire. Set in gorgeous soundscapes courtesy of a 70-member London-based Orchestra, a twenty-voice choir and a select cast of special musical guests, this resplendent offering features Joni Mitchell in some of the most resonant and revealing performances of her career. Its an enterprise that underscores several already well-established facts from an entirely new, and aesthetically audacious, perspective. First and foremost: the songs of Joni Mitchell endure. With material that reaches back to 1970, including such classics as The Circle Game and Woodstock (from Ladies Of The Canyon) through such mid-90s milestones as Sex Kills and Borderline (from TURBULENT INDIGO), and a full spectrum of artfully chosen tracks in between, TRAVELOGUE is a superb tutorial on songwriting that survives and thrives in any number of musical contexts. TRAVELOGUE also proves conclusively that Joni Mitchell has entered into a new and richly nuanced phase of a career already marked by constant creative evolution. This latest metamorphosis began to take shape with 2000s BOTH SIDES NOW , a torch singing homage that also matched a full orchestra to her evocative and richly textured vocals in a tour de force that proved nothing less than a revelation to both her newly-minted and long established fans. Finally, the triumph of TRAVELOGUE conclusively consolidates Joni Mitchell s reputation as an artist for the ages. One of the most powerful singers and songwriters of the modern era, she has fashioned a body of work which has influenced going on three generations of aspiring musicians and songwriters. Yet, from the abundant evidence of TRAVELOGUE , it remains an indisputable fact that there is no more gifted an interpreter of the music of Joni Mitchell than Joni Mitchell. Aiding in this ambitious recasting of a repertoire highlighting both hidden treasures and certified hits is a phalanx of A-list collaborators beginning with co-producer Larry Klein. Another indispensable collaborator is arranger and conductor Vince Mendoza, whose work on TRAVELOGUE elevates his longstanding creative partnership with Joni to a whole new level. The same could well be said for such stalwarts as drummer Brian Blades, keyboardist Herbie Hancock and saxman Wayne Shorter. Its an impressive creative complement rounded out by the likes of Billy Preston on the mighty Hammond B-3, bassists Larry Klein and Chuck Berghofer; Plas Johnson on tenor sax, Kenny Wheeler, flugelhorn, and percussionist Paulinho DaCosta. This powerhouse ensemble anchors the magisterial splendor of the orchestra in an inspired selection of some the artists most exquisite melodies, creating a richly textured musical tapestry against which her lyrics find lush and lustrous new meaning. TRAVELOGUE is, in short, a tour de force by an artist working at the very height of her expressive powers. One of the great pleasures of TRAVELOGUE is, in fact, the way in which it refashions our perceptions of many of the milestones that brought Joni Mitchell to these very heights. The tune stack of the double disc is, in itself, a TRAVELOGUE of sorts, tracing a musical journey to the sweeping vistas of this present destination. Its a journey that began nearly three decades ago, with such landmark releases as SONG TO A SEAGULL , LADIES OF THE CANYON , BLUE , FOR THE ROSES and COURT AND SPARK . Key tracks from those albums, including the above mentioned Woodstock and The Circle Game, as well as The Dawntreader, For The Roses, Judgment Of The Moon And Stars (Ludwigs Tune), Trouble Child, Just Like This Train and The Last Time I Saw Richard, provide a familiar point of departure even as they are recast in TRAVELOGUE's thrilling new musical milieu. From 1976s pioneering stylistic departure, HEJIRA, comes the song of the same name and the standout cuts Amelia and Refuge Of The Roads. DON JUAN'S RECKLESS DAUGHTER (77) yields Otis And Marlena and from the exuberant jazz fusions of 1979s MINGUS , God Must Be A Boogie Man. Culled from Jonis seminal 1982 album WILD THINGS RUN FAST are a quartet of memorable selections, You Dream Flat Tires, Love, Be Cool and Chinese Cafi /Unchained Melody, while more recent material includes Slouching Toward Bethlehem (based on a poem by W.B. Yeats) and Cherokee Louise from 1991s NIGHT RIDE HOME , and three tracks from 92s epochal TURBULENT INDIGO : The Sire Of Sorrows (Jobs Sad Song from The Old Testament), Sex Kills and Borderline. Its a repertoire of almost encyclopedic range, yet among the many accomplishments of TRAVELOGUE is the way in which it elicits new meaning and fresh connections from this wealth of music. It is not simply the glorious orchestral accompaniment that unites these songs into a single, breathtaking listening experience, but a vocal performance that stands as one of Jonis most potent and persuasive. ********************************** The album was recorded earlier this year at Sir George Martins Air Studios in London. Acclaimed filmmakers Allison Anders (GAS, FOOD, LODGING; GRACE OF MY HEART- for which Joni composed the song Man From Mars; Things Behind the Sun) and Alistair Donald (WINGSPAN) were invited to document these historic sessions and the post-production in Los Angeles. The resulting hour-long documentary, tentatively titled CIRCLE GAME: THE MAKING OF JONI MITCHELL'S TRAVELOGUE , offers an intimate look at Jonis creative process and includes exclusive interview footage with her and some of the other legendary artists participating in the project. It also documents some of the unexpected challenges of making the album such as a studio fire that nearly destroyed the master tapes. The film has been submitted to the Sundance Film Festival for possible screening in early 2003. Also planned for Spring 2003 is the definitive biography on Joni Mitchell from PBSs acclaimed American Masters series. For the first time, Joni Mitchell has agreed to participate in a full-scale film of her life and work. The 90-minute film, AMERICAN MASTERS JONI MITCHELL: PENITENT OF THE SPIRIT (w/t) is a co-production of Thirteen/WNET New York and Eagle Vision, and will air nationally on PBS in May 2003. Directed by series creator and Executive Producer Susan Lacy and produced by Ms. Lacy and Stephanie Bennett, the film contains rare archival performance footage from Mitchells earliest appearances in 1966, historic audio recordings of never released material, home movies, her acting debut, a comprehensive photo archive, and interviews with the musician covering the span of her career - with candid conversations conducted expressly for her latest album. Confirmed interviews include David Crosby, Graham Nash, David Geffen, Larry Klein, Cameron Crowe, and Mitchells daughter Kilauren, her parents, Judy Collins, Stephen Holden, Eliot Roberts, Tom Rush and Herbie Hancock. On TRAVELOGUE Joni Mitchell and company have redefined the very act of musical interpretation, creating a whole new way to listen to songs that have become part of the fabric of our lives. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:02:59 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Article says Joni's calling it quits Bring it on Bob and hurry the eggs are going fast! Hey wait - I'm very susceptible to twins ... then what'll we do? Peace, Mama Guz NP Rickie Lee/Walk Away Rene - --- Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > Please, Susan. Have my baby. We'll name her or him Ethel! > > XO, > > --Bob Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:06:52 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: RE: Article says Joni's calling it quits "But [you're] not the only one." Exactly. She's *done* the big statement. Just as Springsteen followed one of the biggest and bestest bands in the rock world with NEBRASKA, a tiny record is what's called for next. Lama unhesitatingly giving career advice to a genius Coming soon to an auction site near you: White Label promo copy of "DJRD", from the store today! Not new though. > From: Susan Guzzi [mailto:groovchacha@yahoo.com] > One of my favorite sayings is "Less is More." > You may say I'm a dreamer ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:08:13 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: wow, such judgement njc mack watson-bush wrote: > When initially came here figured this was a land of grownup flower children. > All this talk of sluts, whores, and bimbos has me thinking what kind of > judgement is this? Guess by some standards Janis would be considered a whore. > I remember hearing similar words to describe her way back when. I, for one, > don't care who is doing whom and how often they do it. Mack, we don't agree much but we do on Janis and right on to what you have said. She was put down for all of that and more and that was just a way to ignore her genius and her amazing talent. As Joni was discredited. As Madonna gets discredited. Not that I am equating the three - but surely it is sexist to keep making these charges against women. If a woman is comfortable with her body and sexuality, she is a slut. A guy does it, and he is hunk, a star. Jim Morrison whipped it out on stage. Jimi Hendrix made love to his guitar (and seeing film clips of it, he did). Almost all male musicians play their guitars as if they were penile extensions. Stones have a zipper to unzip on the fly of the pants on their album. But Janis is a slut. Joni is a slut. Madonna is a slut the guys, they are just cool. Hypocrisy. Thanks mack for raising the greatest of all, Janis, into the conversation. Vince ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #490 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)