From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #482 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, November 11 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 482 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Miss Bland ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Speaking about bizarre links...njc [colin ] Trip down memory lane, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] justin timberlake njc [colin ] NY Post Gossip Column, NJC ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: NY Post Gossip Column, NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Speaking about bizarre links... [dsk ] Re: Miss Bland [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Miss Bland [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #481 [paul mccloud ] Judy Collins NJC [dsk ] "all the guilty people..." [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: NY Post Gossip Column, NJC [ewwt@juno.com] PazFest Info (NJC) [Michaelpaz@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #481 - Joni, Jane & Jesus [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Joni, Jane & Jesus [hell ] Joni segment on PBS [KJHSF@aol.com] Your funeral, my trial NJC ["Mike Pritchard" ] Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) ["Mike Pritchard" ] Re: NY Post Gossip Column, NJC ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Joni, "an original" [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: NY Post Gossip Column, NJC ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: NY Post Gossip Column on Joni's birthday!! [ewwt@juno.com] Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) [colin ] Re: Tire Skids and Teeth Marks ["Humble tiger" ] Re: Joni segment on PBS ["Humble tiger" ] Re: Joni segment on PBS [Deb Messling ] Re: Tire Skids and Teeth Marks njc ["mack watson-bush" ] dating service njc ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: dating service njc ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Celebrating Joni's birthday [Michael Paz ] Re: Travelogue ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Speaking about bizarre links... ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Miss Bland gordon >Is is negative to be critical? Is it positive to be uncritical? Joni doenst hold back, why should we? (not that we need her permsission). Or am I being too Western in my thought?< actually, i think you are being quite zen in your thought...;~} ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:16:58 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Speaking about bizarre links...njc Lori Fye wrote: > > Just stumbled upon this one, titled: > > > > Joni Mitchell: A STORMY LOVE AFFAIR WITH CHRIST > > > > A bit of a stretch of a review of BSN, believe it or not. > > Holy smokes. In fact I think I'LL take up smoking right now. I need > SOMEthing to calm me down after reading THAT! I think MM already had a smoke-loads-when he wrote that. do you think it is was really him who wrote it or Debbie? > > > Lori > > ~ - -- bw colin TANTRA LHASA APSO (reg 1982) colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:21:11 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Trip down memory lane, njc Forgot to mention I just ordered Antonio Forcione following Azeem's recommendation before the summer. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:27:55 +0000 From: colin Subject: justin timberlake njc I have no idea who Justin is biut found this on the same link Bob M sent and thought it was funny: TEEN heartthrob Justin Timberlake isn't sure how he feels about his huge gay following. Asked about his legions of non-hetero fans in a telephone interview with gay culture rag HX, the pop star stammered, "Um . . . honestly I've never really, uh, I've never really . . . something that I've thought a lot about . . . Something that I will say, you know, about the whole community is . . . that I appreciate is that . . . and the people that I've met that are, I mean, it's so nondiscriminating where music goes that it's . . . it's all . . ." Pausing for breath, the man who took Britney Spears' virginity then burbled on, "I don't know, for some reason I find it in this community more than one another is that . . . you know, um . . . honestly, I don't know. I think, uh . . . I never really thought about it. I hope that, uh, all types of different people, they like it, I mean, 'cause uh . . . it's kinda somewhere in the middle of . . . of . . . of the styles that are going on right now . . . I don't want to come off sounding pretentious." No danger there. ge ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:32:27 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: NY Post Gossip Column, NJC > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 03:43:43 -0500 > From: ewwt@juno.com > Subject: Re: NY Post Gossip Column on Joni's birthday!! > I finally began to like Madonna after seeing Evita and hearing > Ray Of Light. > But when I saw that Larry King interview with Madonna a few weeks > ago I wanted to vomit! > The boy-toy-turned-guru had the NERVE to lecture Jews and > Christians that they have it all wrong and that SHE has found "the truth" > which predates Judaism. Sorry Madonna but the Kabballa doesn't predate > Moses or even Jesus. > Larry King just smiled unbelievably and I don't blame him for not > pursuing the topic further No comment on Madonna (I'm not a fan) nor on Joni's comments about her (haven't read them). I just would like to say that the Kabbala that is being referred to here is a sect IMHO, based in NYC with branches in L.A., Paris, etc. I know because my sister has been a member for the past 12 years or so, and when she went to NYC last september for the jewish new year, Madonna was an attendee. That being said, one should not confuse this sect, which is in no way recognized by orthodox Jews, and the Kaballah. The over-simplification of the kaballah concepts by this sect is typical of members making such dumb statements on Larry King or elsewhere. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:57:41 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: NY Post Gossip Column, NJC Who wrote this? Rob?? > I finally began to like Madonna after seeing Evita and hearing > Ray Of Light. I liked Madonna immediately upon the release of her very first album -- was that 1983? -- and I still like her. Would love to see her in concert. However, I'm amazed that you would begin to like her AFTER Evita, which is the one movie in all of my memory which absolutely put me to sleep! As for Ray of Light ... I own it but it's not on my list of faves. Just my opinions. Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:27:24 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Speaking about bizarre links... SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > A bit of a stretch of a review of BSN, believe it or not. (Good old Christians, they can even see Christ in a plate of spaghetti if they try hard enough...) And the right-wing Christians always see Marxists, too, and always as something very very scary. That's strange to me since, on today's political spectrum, Christ is more of a Marxist than a right-wing, individual-above-all capitalist, but right-wing Christians can't seem to grasp that. The more right-wing the writer, the sooner Marxists are mentioned, and a Marxist in a right-winger's view is anyone with even slightly liberal opinions so there are LOTS OF THEM... ooooh those big bad scary Marxists are gonna overrun us all! Save me Jesus from the Marxist hordes worshipping the Dylan! LOL! As though there's not enough real stuff in the world to worry about! "She seems a reluctant Holy Ghost combating the rigors of the Trinity." High praise indeed since the Holy Ghost is one form of God according to Christians. His statement doesn't make much sense, but it does show that the "reviewer" likes Joni so much he considers her a Goddess. Is this guy on the joni list? And this cracked me up: "It's clear that the only male left who could interest Mitchell is Jesus of Nazareth." Well, obviously a Goddess needs a God in order to be satisfied. Mere-man Don from Canada never had a chance. I wonder if this article is in Myrtle's collection. Debra Shea NP: Bruce Cockburn's "Someone I Used to Love" from Dart to the Heart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:28:43 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Miss Bland Gordon Mackie writes: >I thnk it was Fred who said that Joni might hear things that I don't >in Mendoza's orchestrations.Sure, no doubt... and he asked why Joni >would work with him again...I dunno...people end up working with >people for all sorts of reasons...even more than once. All other reasons aside, given Joni's consistently passionate involvement in music, do you think she would hire Mendoza (twice) to shepherd such a vital, monumental task if she wasn't completely thrilled and delighted with his work? Of course not. So doesn't this make you stop and think and reconsider what it is about Mendoza's work that she admires? At worst, your opinion won't change; at best, it will ... and you'll be thrilled and delighted, too. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:00:13 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: Miss Bland In a message dated 11/11/2002 6:27:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, gordon.mackie@strath.ac.uk writes: > To those who privated the personal insults, sobeit. I'll live. It bothers me that listers would insult you or any other lister for simply offering your opinions or your critique. It seems to me that many of our threads could be construed as criticisms of Joni. When the set-list for Travelogue was announced, didn't we gladly start a discussion about which songs we felt she should have included? Is that not a criticism of her work? If I feel that the arrangement on Amelia is plodding and doesn't serve the song, or have the idea that it would have been really inspired to arrange the song differently, maybe with some vocalizing from the Bulgarian Women's Choir, isn't this the place where I come to share these ideas? Isn't that the fun of the discussion? Or are we only allowed to share our glowing reviews? I don't recall that any of the negative criticism included someone saying they hated Travelogue so much that they'd never listen to Joni again. So what's the big deal? I've been underwhelmed by some of the Travelogue stuff and alternately thrilled by some of it, too! And my personal favorite threads have been when listers share great ideas about how things could be done differently, especially the discussions about who we'd like to hear cover different Joni tunes! So, I'm gonna encourage everyone to post their opinions, positive or negative. I love checking my mail each day and reading all the differing opinions about Travelogue and all things Joni! ken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 13:08:02 -0800 (PST) From: paul mccloud Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #481 "Joni is 100% correct in her assessment of Madonna, the music industry and David Letterman, and I'm just glad that someone of Joni's calibre has the guts to say it like it " madonna has always made me sick,,. i like laura nyro U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:12:06 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Judy Collins NJC After all the positive remarks about early Judy Collins, I'm now listening to my recently purchased copy of her "Fifth Album". Her voice is lower than I expected, and so easy sounding, the songs just seem to flow out effortlessly. I love that, and love the lower voice, and the clear folkie, intimate sound of the entire cd. Much thanks to the recent Judy boosters on the list. All that gushing finally got me to give Judy another try. What wonderful music... Debra Shea P.S "Tomorrow is a Long Time". This is such a beautiful song I've added it to my favorites list. I know this song already. Was it a hit for Judy? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:22:37 -0500 From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: "all the guilty people..." "All the guily people,he said,they've all seen the stain on their daily bread,on their christian name I've cleared my self I sacraficed my blues And you can complete me And I complete you" -Court and Spark I've been thinking about these lyrics.any ideas about what they mean? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:36:43 -0500 From: ewwt@juno.com Subject: Re: NY Post Gossip Column, NJC Lori wrote: << I liked Madonna immediately upon the release of her very first album - -- was that 1983? -- and I still like her. Would love to see her in concert. However, I'm amazed that you would begin to like her AFTER Evita, which is the one movie in all of my memory which absolutely put me to sleep! >> Hi Lori, My problem with Madonna has always been that she sells her music with sex, exploiting Christian symbolism to create controversy. Strip away the virgin/whore sensationalism and no one would be interested in Madonna's thin little voice. A perfect example of this was her debut of Shanti/Ashtangi video (from Ray of Light) in India, causing a riot among Hindus who were outraged by her portrayal of their goddess Shanti. Madonna did this just to create a controversy to sell CDs! For Evita she finally took voice lessons and it shows. But why don't I believe that Madonna actually wrote any of those songs on Ray of Light? Eric NP: Ray of Light, "Candy Perfume Girl" (I love it!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:37:28 EST From: Michaelpaz@aol.com Subject: PazFest Info (NJC) Hey Everybody! The fabulous John Rose has been featuring the PazFest Cd on his program on Monday's on http://uicradio.ws/index.html. I turned it on today and the first thing I heard was Beth Patterson doing Ladies of The Canyon and then Jack Neilson doing Blue Boy. It was so cool to hear somebody talking about the project and playing the tunes on the radio. And oh my gawd as I type here he is playing Susan Cowsill now. Please tune into his show on Mondays and be sure to request your faves from PazFest and Joni and whatever you like. His show is on mondays from 12pm-4pm. I have really enjoyed listening to the show. Also in regards to the PazFest CD's I am now able to take Visa/Master Card for your purchase. The deal is still $25 per CD + $5 shipping and handling in the USA (no extra charge for using the credit card in the US) $6.50 shipping and handling to the UK and Europe. I am also still offering the buy four and get one free deal (there is a $5 credit card charge on that quantity + shipping and handling). Do your Christmas shopping early and give the gift of great music and help some poor kids in Latin America at the same time +++++ it's tax deductible. Thanks everybody for your support!! Love Paz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:37:49 -0500 From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #481 - Joni, Jane & Jesus This is the best part.... God blesses Jane Fonda. Her father's Americanism held sway. Henry Fonda's ghost, with the help of Christ, brought Jane home. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:01:38 -0800 (PST) From: hell Subject: Joni, Jane & Jesus Bryan wrote: > This is the best part.... > > God blesses Jane Fonda. Her father's Americanism held sway. Henry > Fonda's ghost, with the help of Christ, brought Jane home. I don't know, I kind of like: "The CD begins with the bliss of her original success in the Sixties. Apparently, whatever entity ran the universe blessed her with talent, brilliance, beauty and a ruthless business sense. However, since Marxist "Revolutionaries" such as Joan Baez, Bob Dylan and John Lennon dominated that period, Mitchell was swept into a vortex that was entirely godless, thankless, self-pitying, self-entitled and in fact, almost psychotic." Thank god she managed to crawl away from that vortex of psychosis! This is almost funnier that the mental image of Bob Murphy in gold lame! (Almost.....)! Hell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:12:11 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Joni segment on PBS Did anyone else catch the amazing Henry Diltz program on PBS last Friday? He showed brilliant super 8 footage of Joni dancing at a so-cal rocker's party at someone's home in the early 70's with friends and fellow rockers. He had amazing things to say about how beautiful Joni was to photograph--the certain spark about her that is magical when caught on film. It also struck me that there was, in the vintage footage, an element of weariness about Joni-like she was dancing and enjoying herself but then would look around and see that everyone was drunk and high in a way that would bore her. It occurred to me that she really must have felt frustrated as she outgrew her peers, choosing to focus on her art and passion and leave the drunken revelry behind. I think this may be where she really took off artistically and left everyone else in the dust. That footage made it clear that she was the incredibly exceptional genius amongst a group of talented people. You can just see it--it's almost like she appears in color while the crowd remains in black and white. Diltz also talked about the Laurel Canyon photos, and how the Steppenwolf album cover of the time was shot in a burned down house next to Joni's. He also remembered having to take a cab out of Las Vegas with Joni to take pictures of her in the desert, and that she had to pay the cab fare of almost seventy bucks cuz he had no money on him! I hope we can get this segment on one of the tape trees because it was amazing! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:23:26 +0000 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: Your funeral, my trial NJC Hi everyone, Just to let you all know that the paper I wrote for the conference on men killing women in songs was delivered on Oct 4th and went down pretty well. Thanks again for all your suggestions about possible songs to include in the paper. Some of them I included and, for reasons of time, some had to be omitted. I also dealt only with songs that I had at home and therefore this eliminated many of the others. Anyone who is interested in reading a copy of the paper may do so by clicking on the link below. Its slightly less than 5,000 words. Thanks again to all. http://www.ink08.com/material/yourfuneral.htm mike in barcelona NP Coltrane. My Favorite Things. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:39:24 +0000 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) Kakki wrote: >>Look at our efforts and alliances with men like King Hussein of Jordan, Anwar Sadat of Egypt and even Saddam himself way back in the late 70s - early 80s before he turned mad.<< Might Saddams turning mad be in some small way related (chronologically) to his becoming an enemy of the USA? Or did his madness (is he mad or is he evil, and are these things the same?) become apparent when he became anti-American? And might Noriegas illegal activities in Panama be in some small way related (chronologically) to his becoming an enemy of the USA? In a nutshell my questions are: Is what Saddam is doing now in any significant way different to what he was doing before he went mad, or rather, before he started to be referred to as mad? And was Noriega engaged in perfectly legal activities before he suddenly became a criminal, or rather before he started to be referred to as a criminal? I think the answer to these questions is clearly NO. Lets be honest and refer to these (and many other) people as friends of the USA or enemies of the USA, rather than imputing madness and criminality to them. All this is not to say, of course, that Saddam is not mad, or that Noriega is not a criminal, just to say that whatever their mental health and moral principles, the major changes have been in the definition of their behaviour rather than the behaviour itself. mike in barcelona NP Coltrane. A Love Supreme - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:49:33 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: NY Post Gossip Column, NJC Eric wrote:w with sex, exploiting Christian symbolism to create controversy. > Strip away the virgin/whore sensationalism and no one would be > interested in Madonna's thin little voice. First of all, I like her voice. No Judy Garland but then again, I wasn't looking for Judy Garland or Joni Mitchell when I heard Madonna for the first time. I also didn't have MTV and wasn't watching her virgin/whore act as was put forth here. I liked her music, I liked her voice and I still do. Madonna did this just > to create a controversy to sell CDs! Maybe so, maybe not. Guess only she really knows the answer to that. As for what she has done or not done, I simply don't care. I am not interested in what musicians are doing in their lives except for giving me music that I enjoy, which she has and maybe will continue to do. Not anymore interested in that than I am in electing a president that is 'like a priest.' I like Bill Clinton too. So it goes. mack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:05:12 -0500 From: "PAUL PETERSON" Subject: Re: WalterPhil's post "So Sad" thanks for telling some hard to accept truths about 'our' Joni. I felt the way you write when the Both Sides Now CD first came out, esp after Taming the Tiger which seemed so not up to her usual standard. But I really got into Both Sides Now eventually and the concerts were transcendant, esp Hejira, and Judgement, and Case of You and Both Sides. I'm feeling the way you write about the links to the new CD. I wonder if I will convert to loving them after a few more listenings. Right now tho, it sure sounds like, as someone wrote, Joni-lite. As to her cranky pronouncements, I have always accepted them as another expression of Joni's melancholy world view. I think we all love her music as much for its sadness and the comfort of the words of a kindred spirit always doomed to imperfection. Someone who could write "I guess I never really loved" is going to find a lot to hate about the world we live in. But then I do too. Maybe it's not Madonna, but I could certainly come up with a list. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:20:56 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Joni, "an original" You mean I don't have to be at the kid's table for Thanksgiving?! ; ) I want to hear what you all think, mainly because I literally have been thinking about this on and off for weeks and can't seem to come to any kind of conclusion. To me, Hejira sounds like the ground-breaker. But, because I was born 11 months after STAS was released, I'll never know what it was like to hear her for the first time (thanks Kate for saying what it was like). I'm still wondering who laid the ground for her musical work. Dylan opened up the door on lyrics, perhaps Baez and Nyro influenced her vocally - but those chord progressions, where did they come from? The Beatles? Chopin? Or was it as she has said a product of her tunings. Anyone else fascinated with how music evolves? Okay, Jim, tag you're it! Jenny "Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama)" wrote:Goodspeed, let's leave it at what? You didn't SAY anything! What do YOU think? Why did you raise all of these questions for ME to answer? :) C'mon. You've got a fine head on your shoulders! Give it up, girl! You're old enough to sit with the grownups. Speak! Speak! Lama Jenny said, >> So - this all has me thinking - when is an artist ground breaking - when an artist truly comes up with something new or combines influences in a way that has never been done before? Specifically - when do you think Joni broke some ground? And what was her contribution - lyrical...musical. For pop/rock music history buffs - or heck for people who were actually cognizant at the time - how do you see Joni in the context of popular music? How about in music in general? Did she truly become an original right of the bat with STAS - or was that more a logical, albeit creative outflow of what was happening around and before her? I have a zillion other thoughts/questions, but let's leave it at that....>>>> U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:21:50 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: NY Post Gossip Column, NJC ET: > Madonna did this just > > to create a controversy to sell CDs! > Mack: > Maybe so, maybe not. Guess only she really knows the answer to that. > > As for what she has done or not done, I simply don't care. I am not > interested in what musicians are doing in their lives except for giving me > music that I enjoy, which she has and maybe will continue to do. Me: You're exactly right. The important thing is the music itself, and if she's creating music you love and/or enjoy then that's all that matters. There has always been controversy which can play some part in the marketing of music and I think there always will be. I actually bought my first Led Zeppelin album because I went to a Christian seminar on rock music and I was curious to see if there was really a backwards message on Stairway to Heaven. Music in many cases is a reflection of a culture or subculture. There was controversy before Madonna came along and there is still controversy. Just look at the Catholic Church. I'm just saying, Madonna wasn't the first person to fuse sex/pop culture with religion and she probably won't be the last. I can only applaud her for her success in marketing herself. Whether or not her music is good enough to back up her marketing is a personal decision. Victor NP: Joni - Refuge of the Roads - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:24:46 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Joni, "an original" Kate Bennett wrote:i was listening to joni from the moment of her first release...& from the first note of her first song on her first album she was unique...her intelligence & her very visual lyrics, her use of alternative chords (tuned to the sound of the day!) & not going with any method of formulaic songwriting...she painted pictures with her words like no other...> Ah Kate, I'm jealous! Thanks for the info on Sting...I had only ever heard her quote on how Sting is her and JT's child, and I can hear James in some of his work, but I could not hear Joni. But, from the horse's mouth, as it were! Congrats on the great success of the Joni birthday show! You're an inspiration. Jenny U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:55:43 -0500 From: ewwt@juno.com Subject: Re: NY Post Gossip Column on Joni's birthday!! << I love Joni for her guts! But why name names? She can't rant and rail without making it personal? >> Hi Bree, Perhaps Joni thinks Madonna epitomizes what's wrong with the music industry today. Or perhaps Joni is following Madonna's example, promoting her new CD with negative controversy. ;~D Eric ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:40:03 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) > Might Saddams turning mad be in some small way related > (chronologically) to his becoming an enemy of the USA? Or did his > madness (is he mad or is he evil, and are these things the same?) become > apparent when he became anti-American? > Doc on tv the other night about Hussein. he has always been the same, long before he got into power he was assinating people ect. The Americans supported him then. They have only demonised him now because it suits them to. Like they supported him then because it suited them.(same for UK). Mad and evil, especially mad, are stupid words to use to describe anyone. The definatoion of mad depends on your culture and who is defining the word. And as for evil, I am okay with labelling acts as evil but not people. There is always a difference between the act and the actor. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:54:38 -0500 From: "Humble tiger" Subject: Re: Tire Skids and Teeth Marks I was a '70's child and I can relate to alot of these memories......I don't think we had an answering machine until the '90's :) Erica <<>> Forgive me if it's outta place here. WtS _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:16:17 -0500 From: "Humble tiger" Subject: Re: Joni segment on PBS Ken, I saw this wonderful special a couple of months ago and LOVED it!! I just happened to turn it on and was surprised to see the Joni part of the show. I especially loved the story of Joni footing the cab fare on their trip to the desert outside of Vegas! Erica Did anyone else catch the amazing Henry Diltz program on PBS last Friday? He showed brilliant super 8 footage of Joni dancing at a so-cal rocker's party at someone's home in the early 70's with friends and fellow rockers. He had amazing things to say about how beautiful Joni was to photograph--the certain spark about her that is magical when caught on film. It also struck me that there was, in the vintage footage, an element of weariness about Joni-like she was dancing and enjoying herself but then would look around and see that everyone was drunk and high in a way that would bore her. It occurred to me that she really must have felt frustrated as she outgrew her peers, choosing to focus on her art and passion and leave the drunken revelry behind. I think this may be where she really took off artistically and left everyone else in the dust. That footage made it clear that she was the incredibly exceptional genius amongst a group of talented people. You can just see it--it's almost like she appears in color while the crowd remains in black and white. Diltz also talked about the Laurel Canyon photos, and how the Steppenwolf album cover of the time was shot in a burned down house next to Joni's. He also remembered having to take a cab out of Las Vegas with Joni to take pictures of her in the desert, and that she had to pay the cab fare of almost seventy bucks cuz he had no money on him! I hope we can get this segment on one of the tape trees because it was amazing! Ken _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:19:09 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Joni segment on PBS What was the name of this program? At 05:12 PM 11/11/02 -0500, you wrote: >Did anyone else catch the amazing Henry Diltz program on PBS last Friday? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 10/24/02 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:31:56 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: Tire Skids and Teeth Marks njc Humble tiger wrote: .....I don't > think we had an answering machine until the '90's :) We had a party line for much of my adolescence. It was quite fun to listen in sometimes although not if mama caught me. .. > As children, we would ride in cars with no seat belts or air > bags. Riding in the back of a pickup truck on a warm day was > always a special treat. And even allowed to stand up behind the cab and go down the highway without repercussions. The wind in our faces, it felt so fine. We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles Wasn't that grand? > We drank water from the garden hose and not from a bottle. And we even relieved ourselves in the field when no one was around. Write about horrors. > We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as > we were back when the streetlights came on. My mama would command us to get out of the house after breakfast and not return until it was time for lunch. After lunch, until supper. lol Remember accidents? The good ole days. We did not have Playstations, Nintendo 64, X Boxes, video games > at all,99 channels on cable, video tape movies, surround sound, > personal cellular phones, Personal Computers, internet chat rooms > ... we had friends. We only picked up 2 stations and they were cloudy. That is when my mom would allow us to turn the set on, which wasn't often. The last of six, my older siblings would often exclude me. I invented all sorts of games to amuse myself and with very little to work with. Johnson grass could be manipulated to make a great tribe of Indians, complete with headresses. The corncobs and the silk atop their heads could do the same. Different antbeds with different kinds of ants could also make for some great indian wars. . The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke a > law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law, imagine > that! And with the schoolteachers when we were paddled at school. It was a sure bet that if I got it at school, the one that I got when I arrived home was worse. Much. And on Halloween, we were just let out of the car to run amok and gather as much candy as possible, without any fear at all. No one ever went with us. Those were the days. > Forgive me if it's outta place here. > WtS I enjoyed it immensely but better remember to put njc on it or face the wrath of the joni onlies and the netiquette people. ' mack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:34:10 -0500 From: "Humble tiger" Subject: Re: NY Post Gossip Column on Joni's birthday!! - njc I guess for me mastering maarketing doesn't give you musical talent but it sure does sell alot of albums. Taste in music is obviously subjective so what I am going to say is just that my subjevtive view. To me it seems artists such as Bob Dylan, Joni, Neil Young, Tom Waits.....etc.... almost can't help but create MUSIC, jot down lyrics on tatered napkins and dream about chords to play in the morning. For some reason or another these seem to be the artists that rock me the most. Madonna rocks alot of people, they love her music and will defend her just as much as I would Joni. It just seems Madonna's focus is mainly on her physical image and marketing ability not a passion for music. I have listened to Madonna alot, I personally can't take more than a couple songs, it leaves me empty, the perfected talent show doesn't do it for me as much as it does for others. I remember once joni said something like, "When art and business mix everything get's f-ed up" ...call me an idealist but I have agree. Erica >What did Joni say about Madonna? http://www.nypost.com/seven/11072002/gossip/pagesix.htm _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:48:15 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: mags njc mags, i had not been to the homepage in a long while. I went there and saw your photo. You are absolutely precious. I didn't have your private email address but I am an open book and, therefore, I don't mind writing this to all. I hope you don't mind receiving it but not good at controlling my thoughts or impulses. lol. mack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:51:43 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: dating service njc darn, no one fit my seach criteria. drats. lol mack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:55:57 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: dating service njc and i put no preference on the toilet roll question. mack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:49:57 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Celebrating Joni's birthday Kakki Thanks for the report it sounds like it was just fab. Spoke briefly with Yael today who had a great time there. Wish I could have been there. And Kate thanks for posting the setlist just to rub it in (an old tactic of mine). I am also a big sucker for kids charities. Love Paz on 11/8/02 2:26 AM, kakki at kakkib@vzavenue.net wrote: > Just got home a bit ago from Kate Bennett's 2nd annual tribute to Joni at > Soho in Santa Barbara and fundraiser for music programs in the local > schools. It was really fantastic and Kate and Jeff did a superb job. We > had our first hard pouring rain here in it seems like years and so it was a > challenge getting there and I missed the first hour (which included Yael and > Jim Messina!! argh). Probably before tonight Kate was the almost the only > one who knew Messina produced Joni's first demo. (Not Crosby!). I met up > with Coyote Rick and Yael and Messina had just left their table. He did not > perform but told the story of producing the demo and working with her. Many > of the top Santa Barbara singer-songwriters performed and, of course, Kate > even got Jeff Pevar there, too! The place was absolutely jam-packed but it > was good to see such a turn-out on a stormy night. > > The songs spanned all of Joni's periods and each were introduced with a > reading by Kate. Some standouts for me were Anita Bayley singing > "Electricity" and "For the Roses" absolutely beautifully and perfectly note > for note like the original, Karen Thurber, who reminded me so much of Marian > in her brilliant precision and perfection on "Good Bye Pork Pie Hat," and > then OMG Marcella and George Quirin with friends doing a "Centerpiece" that > was part Tuck & Patti, part Manhattan Transfer and part early Annie Ross. > OMG. I'd noticed George earlier sitting in on dulcimer on "All I Want" and > I thought to myself "he's (our) Victor!" When he later played acoustic > guitar (try to imagine this for that song) on "Centerpiece" better than > Tuck, I again thought "Victor." When I raved to him after the show, he was > so humble and said he'd just learned it today, I knew it he was truly our > local "Victor"! ;-) He and his wife Marcella have a CD called "Clarity" on > sale at Borders. Highly recommend checking them out. > > The performances tonight were taped and I hope there will be a forthcoming > CD. Next year I hope more of the jmdlers can make it. Major kudos to Kate > for an outstanding night! > > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:51:17 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: calling Ryan Adams fans, NJC Laurent I love Anders and have worked with him many times. I do not have the new one yet, but look forward to hearing it. Paz on 11/11/02 10:26 AM, Laurent Olszer at olszer@xlsecurity.com wrote: > For you Ryan Adams fans, I have a strong feeling you will love Anders Osborne > 2002 release: Break The Chain (at shanachie.com). > The title track alone is one of those "songs you really must love". > > Laurent > > NP: Los Lobos: Kiko ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:05:22 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Travelogue Just wanted to add my .02 on the new cd. I cannot wait to get the real thing in my hands. My deep thanks to my benefactor (you know who and WHAT you are!!!!) for filling me in with a copy. I will be standing in line on the 19th to get the real thing. Joni can do no wrong in mine eyes. What can I say?? I think she knows exactly what she is doing and believe she is the most amazing artist of our time. Some of the stand out trax for me are Refuge of The Roads-OMG the harp just kills me. Slouching and Sire-Songs like I liked before when they were first released but they have grown on me and they have grown up in these versions. Judgement and For the Roses-I just loved this album and these versions shed a whole new lite on their brilliance. I love all the songs but these are my faves so far. These are the ones that really do it for me from the first few listens. My feeling about the whole orch projects are that she is looking back on her work and making them grown up versions of the stellar pieces. I love listening to alternate versions of peoples work (either live or new studio versions) There is nothing like the original versions, but it is so special to be able to hear different takes on the artists version. The Hissing Demos was one of the most amazing times I have ever spent cause they were the infant versions of the songs that later changed in to what I am So familiar with now. One thing that I have found about HER music is that I don't always like every song right away, which is a good thing cause then I have the future to look forward to, when the songs finally do HIT me. As far as her rants. Gawd she always just kills me with her comments to the press, esp. about the industry. As far as I am concerned she told no lies here and I agree with her on so many levels. It also gives me hope that maybe Les and Jim will be the head to the new Joni Label that will do things the right way that she deserves so much. BTW I am available to assist with production and promotion (and I can leave my pitch corrector in the box). Best Paz (so sleepy now) P.S. I got George Harrison's new one in the mail a few days ago and it is really good. It also will be released on the 19th and I highly recommend it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:34:28 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: Travelogue Wow. You've come a loooong way from where you were after seeing the BSN tour in LA. I recall that "hoping they work the bugs out of the arrangements" and "I'm not sure if all of the dissonance I was hearing was intended" were the paraphrased memories. Lama Kakki said, >>>>>>>>>>I've heard it a few times now in its entirety. If you are someone who has listened to Joni since STAS and been in love with all or part of her music since then you will absolutely fall in love with Travelogue. It's hard for me to even describe the way it affects me. For a long time Joni fan it will be like experiencing an exquisite and magical reincarnation of all those first listens long ago. The orchestration IMO is a huge part of its magic. Brilliant and original. Kakki>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:34:34 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: Speaking about bizarre links... Wow! It's so good to have Joni True Intent revealed to me, at last. Seriously though, I have two bits of advice. Bit #1: About that link- don't bother. It doesn't live up to Muller's normal standards: no hooker content. Bit #2: All right-thinking Joni fans that we are the only ones who could possibly "get" her true intent, right? Uhhhhh, no? Lama ps, wait a minute. Joni also uses the phrase "holy wine" in "A Case Of You"........ > > http://users.motion.net/debbie58/joni02.htm > > Quote: > > "The great turning point of the CD is A CASE OF YOU. With Christian > symbolism dripping all over the lyric, Mitchell becomes a kind of latter-day > Mary Magdalene, from whom she receives wise advice: "Go to Him! Be with Him! > But be prepared to bleed!" " ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:52:01 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: njc Rebuttal on personal berating Franklin,I have read your post with interest and amusement. You speak of "shadow governments", "billionaire boys club", and "puppets". Funny, when I was a kid, I never liked puppet shows. Just goes to show how we are molded by our childhoods. You've listed sites (which I have gone to) to back up your theories. However, I find no substance to your dark hypotheses. A) They are not MY hypotheses. B) Perhaps you didn't want to find substance to them. That might alter, restrict or otherwise distress your apparently rigid yet comforting personal world-view. Try this site on for size http://www.infowars.com That oughta REALLY blow your safety-craving spirit - all several hundred articles. You seem to confuse conspiracies with fairy tales, and that's just what THEY want you to do. Exactly, precisely how it works. Yet a conspiracy is simply that - a conspiracy "to join in a secret agreement to accomplish an unlawful or wrongful act 2) a mischievous plot, generally conceived for political, personal or financial gain in a such a manner as to skillfully elude discovery. They are merely an opinion on world events. That's your opinion. I'll give you credit for wordy (however empty) manifestos, but if I were to believe what you say I'd have to make a huge leap. Thank you. I've always subscribed to the principle that ALL meaningful manifestos must be wordy and empty! Perhaps the remote possibility of recognizing that we are not in ANY danger, imminent or otherwise from Saddam Insane and his 223 1950's vintage (classics, I'm sure - probably collectable if auctioned on e-bay) Soviet tanks, his infamous shotgun (that really scares the hell outa ya, doesn't it?) And his Fedora - complete with GPS satellite system to target your home - is a HUGE leap for some. The idea that G.DUB has the I.Q. of a sparrow and the morals of a mouse is probably a huge leap too. Let's all rally around the flagpole and hurry up and rid the world of this Mad Mastermind and his pita-pounding patsies before he annihilates us all. All we need to do is increase the war budget to say, oh - 3-500 billion dollars (never mind whose pockets that's inevitably going into), toss roughly 200,000 young men and women over there and while we're at it, we might as well confiscate his biggest threat: those deadly oil fields that have the capability of toppling entire economies with a single turn of the spigot. Now mind you, lest there be any misunderstanding, the oil well appropriations are strictly incidental to the "real" issues at stake. In fact, THEY'RE already hard at work trying to figure out how to dole out the proceeds from the petrol collectively into every red-blooded American's pockets. Just think! We're all gonna be RICH!! Hell, the entire human race can see that this is the only sane thing to do to protect all of "humanity". And they realize that the American public should at least receive communal rights to those oily wells - out of sheer gratitude for OUR courage and resolve, standing up to that extraordinary, world-threatening POWERHOUSE - Iraq. What a brilliant idea on G.Dub's part. Sheer genius. Must have thought about it while reading People Magazine in the John.(On second thought, there's probably a "red phone" in there. I would have to believe that all persons in government are corrupt.That no one elected to public office ran because they wanted to make a difference. Well if you "would have to believe that all persons in government are corrupt" then I can't argue with you. Such absolutes are a real impediment to contemplating alternative possibilities, especially rational ones. (Just try reasoning with Osama, or G.Dub for that matter - good luck.) As you are aware we are a government of checks, and balances, so all the House, Senate, Executive, and Judicial branches are corrupt. Now we're getting somewhere. I am aware of that, although I must confess - I'm somewhat surprised that you are!! Now I farther must believe that voting means nothing, that this billionaires boys club has rendered voting impotent. To a degree. They have put an interesting twist on it: "Do you want Candidate A, or Candidate A. Take your pick". (by the way, I believe you meant "further". Big stretch for me to make. All I can say to that is that stretching is very good for the body (as well as the brain) and, in any event, is highly recommended before and after any vigorous exercise (mental or otherwise). Now you say that only those that know the 'truth' can rise above this. Quotes "" around truth yours not mine, which indicates that you are the one who is attempting to qualify what "truth" is - to you at least. You would be correct in assuming that from the standpoint of personal belief - I find that the truth is in Christ - He IS the truth (hey, what can I say? I read the Bible a couple times and it makes more sense to me than some of the idiotic nonsense posited by other "prophets" through the ages, even if some of the restrictions have been known to grate on my carnal spirit - surprise, surprise. Oh, well - one fascinating thing about human nature is that most people intrinsically know when their behavior is destructive, degrading, harmful to their spirit and others. Another fascinating thing is how often they cringe, cry foul, seethe and scream when confronted with it, through spiritual, social or personal revelation. The "truth" really does hurt some times - don't it though. Ah, humanity... such a silly, selfish bunch. But my dear, back to qualifying (yours); I have conducted most of my conversation regarding a different kind of "truth". Let's call it facts, just to avoid confusion. For instance, here's a fact: Kennedy was assassinated ONE day after he signed a bill withdrawing all U.S. forces out of Vietnam. Lyndon (hi, I'm a corrupt, politically whoring, good ol' boy from Texas. Where did you say you put those sacks of hundred dollar bills partner? - behavior that even his hand-picked biographer freely acknowledges) Johnson's FIRST act as the new REGIME leader was to rescind and reverse that bill with Generals standing beside him gleefully rubbing their hands together - HIS VERY FIRST ACT. OK, so maybe it WAS coincidence. A coincidence that culminated in a ten year quagmire costing our heroic (we were there to HELP those poor,ignorant Vietnamese from deciding what type of government they wanted to live under - boy would that have been a world-threatening disaster. We sure showed our courage and care) efforts to the tune of 55,000 dead American sons and over a trillion dollars in "military hardware" support. Much of that ended up in the "enemies" hands when we hi-tailed it outa there. Hmmmm....wonder where that trillion went anyway, you know - which bank accounts. I guess the price of napalm is just WAY beyond my scope of comprehension. Who makes that wonder weed burner anyway? Just think what that patent's worth!!!! And maybe that Zapruder film showing the FRONT of Kennedy's head blown off does prove that modern physics is a charade, and that he WAS shot from behind by an essentially obsolete bolt-action rifle with no scope that couldn't possibly have fired four shots in 3.4 seconds, particularly when the "marksman" was witnessed drinking a Pepsi two floors down at the moment (of course Oswald may well have had a twin - something the "government may have thought too sensitive to reveal to a grieving and horrified public at the time.) BTW - A world-class expert rifleman did test fire the same model rifle and was able to (very inaccurately, I might add from a comparable) get off four shots in 9.8 seconds or so - so maybe, just maybe it was a once in a lifetime fluke. Imagine, Oswald as James Bond, or something like that. Capable of doing the impossible under the most pressing (read: ridiculous) circumstances. Then again, just think of it! We'll all get to see the "sealed" (for the protection of the American public, of course) documents that tell, as Paul Harvey would say, "the rest of the story" in 2030. Yep, that is the date that is mandated to unseal them. Wonder why none of the past eight President's have demanded this preposterous declaration be overturned. Do you think ANY of them have REQUESTED a little peak (oh please, please, I won't tell anybody). So never fear, we'll all know - those of us who aren't dead by then - finally, who really initiated the COUP. Of course they'll all be dead by then too. How convenient. But hey, we wouldn't want to ruin their otherwise stellar careers, or embarrass their families now, would we? Then there's Watergate...how about the Oklahoma bombing. An "air-impaction" bomb (think of it as shaking up a can of coca cola and then opening it in your startled friend's face. An air-impaction bomb does just that - utilize the impact of compressed air. Can it do damage? Of course. It could easily blow out windows in a large building, even kill a passing bystander or two (given enough nitrous oxide, which is the common chemical of choice apparently - you know - fertilizer). Can it snap in half (at their apex, in the basement of the building no less) two out of three state-of-the art, multi-ton, tornado-proof girders? Never in a trillion years. But wait, I forgot: the laws of physics are irrelevant here - if our "leaders" say it's so, it's so damn it! But then again, we'll never REALLY know and that's OK (no pun intended). It must be, or President Bill (oral isn't sex) Clinton wouldn't have given an inalterable executive order to have the entire "eyesore" of a blown-up building brought down just thirty days after the disaster.(Wonder who called him demanding that one?) Oh, well - it doesn't really matter now does it? Apparently, our trusted, wisdom-laden leaders felt that a legitimate investigation was totally unnecessary - and hey, who am I to disagree with THEM. I keep forgetting that they have OUR common security, protection, well-being, happiness as their main concern in ALL things. Oh, I just get warm, fuzzy goose bumps just thinking about it (I feel so totally safe right now - thank you Washington.) I could go on and on with my "theories", but then again, I really couldn't. Because everything I've just discussed is facts (oh, those ratty, trouble-makin' little facts). The truth, according to you would be The Christ. What you are doing is intellectually dishonest here Kasey. I'm sorry, but it is. You're allowing your emotions to dictate your arguments to dismiss my very legitimate concerns regarding events that HAVE happened, and seeking, as a conscientious human being to discern, discover, uncover, demand answers regarding the cover-ups concerning those events. I stated, as an afterthought at the end of those concerns, my personal convictions regarding what can ultimately be done in the face of the monumental "stone walls" erected to hide, bury,those facts and the junkyard of misinformation force-fed to a (for the most part) self-satisfied, lazy,lackadaisical public. My inevitable answer to all of these treacherous events and the fact that there is a MAJOR concerted, orchestrated cover-up going on which may never be unravelled, happens to be one of spiritual dimension, and thus (duh) conviction. That each of us must attempt to get through this with whatever PERSONAL spiritual integrity we can obtain and maintain. My path does happen to be Christ (not the Christ-flavored, Babylonian brand "practiced" so "faithfully" by the above-mentioned general public, but a personal, life-altering decision. You purposefully misconstrue all of the pertinent information preceeding that final commentary into one big - "oh, I must know your "truth" in order to understand and rise above this" type attitude - painting me and, by inference, my legitimate concerns as those some narrow-minded, deluded bigot. You are combining my representation of facts, and interest in resolving undisclosed issues revolving around them with my own personal beliefs in an attempt to discount the former in one fell (and failed, I might add) swoop. This approach has a term (other than argumentative fraud) called "logical fallacy". Since your somewhat sinister approach leads me to question your familiarity with the basic elements of logic, and it's time-tested rules for uncovering fallacious reasoning, I will describe what you are attempting to (subconsciously or otherwise) accomplish in layman's terms: It's called "poisoning the well". Those more familiar with the concepts of logic at this digest will know exactly what I am alluding to here. Well that just about closes the door on any Jew, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Homosexual, and any other group that views the truth a bit different. I don't view personal spirituality in terms of groups. Your "groups" are simply vehicles for those who find comfort in "numbers". Salvation by majority consensus. "If we all agree, it must be right - hey we're all headed to heaven, or reincarnation or whatever. Why? Simply because we all agree with each other" (comforting,these "group" situations, aren't they? But then that's exactly their appeal). And those tolerant, or "accepting" and "kind" enough in other "groups" say, "well, their beliefs are totally different than our concepts, but it's probably right also, or so many wouldn't get together and agree, so it MUST be yet another viable alternative." How sweet. How tolerant. The trouble is, that a lot of these "groups" AREN'T all that tolerant - or hadn't you noticed?) Either way it's all a little too unappealing for me. But then again, I'm not necessarily the perfect candidate for unquestioning follower status. I am a firm believer in God. Oh, really? Which Ones? However God is what I call the creator, some call him/her other names, like Mohammad, Krishna, or Buddha. I too believe Christ to be a messiah. Messiah meaning teacher. I had no idea there were so many creators!!! No wonder the world is such a mess. Maybe they should get together (they must all still be alive, as they are "God(s) what I call the creator" as you put it, and by definition the term God implies eternal) and come up with one big blueprint that is consistent. As you are interested in philosophy you know that Socrates also willingly died for what he believed, I'm sure you've heard of the hemlock society. Do I discern some sort of ominous suggestion here? lol So though I find your writings interesting, I find it is only an opinion, not based in fact but interpretation. Poisoning the well again Kasey, naughty, naughty. My main writings involve horrific events that are factual and attempting to ascertain the facts regarding the. My personal beliefs are what you would be referring to as "interpretation". Two different donkeys dear. (BTW - you finally admit that you find "wordy and empty manifestoes" interesting, at least mine!) AHA, gotcha! No seriously, I'm honored. , you are giving factual information to someone who is arguing opinion, and theory. It won't work, but great effort. Please Kasey, while I respect Kakki's apparently unflappable "belief" (note my preferred choice of words) in the propaganda that this is one great big open, honest land of liberty, defending, the poor, downtrodden, ignorant and misled legions here and everywhere else abroad through every means necessary (force of course being preferable if at all possible, as it's by far the most profitable) I must attempt to dissuade you from further encouraging her wishful thinking. I generally prefer the concept of thoughtful thinking preceding the wishful variety. But then again - that's just another one of my "opinions". I don't know you, but can honestly say I accept, enjoy (and would no doubt like, should we ever meet) you both. Any charitable reciprocation is strictly optional. Franklin ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #482 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)