From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #477 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, November 10 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 477 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- No news on Ticketron.com ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Evian takes us down the memory trail [colin ] Re: Oil/war/UN resolution (njc) (pc) [colin ] JMDL, ye olde daze, njc ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Oil/war/UN resolution (njc) (pc) ["kakki" ] P. Gabriel interview on BBC2 Oct. 16th 2002 - Joni mention ["Australian ] Re: No news on Ticketron.com ["joe farrell" ] Travelogue comments from Owen [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Travelogue question (again) [Deb Messling ] Re: DED njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] [none] ["William Chavez" ] remembering (again) now njc [vince ] Re: No Subject - njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Evian's trip down memory lane NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Fw: Fw: Fw: The art of misreading. NJC ["kasey simpson" ] Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) [Jenny Goodspeed ] RE: ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: RE: njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Oil/war/UN resolution (njc) (pc) [colin ] Re: Fw: Oil/war (njc) (pc) [colin ] Re: Fw: Fw: Fw: The art of misreading. NJC [colin ] Re: Evian's trip down memory lane NJC [Mags N Brei ] Re: Evian's trip down memory lane NJC [vince ] Re: Joni, "an original" [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Evian's trip down memory lane NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Evian's trip down memory lane NJC [vince ] Re: Evian's trip down memory lane NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] RE: Joni, "an original ["Victor Johnson" ] Travelogue release / Pearl Jam (sjc) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: thank you fans! [Jerry Notaro ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 03:34:24 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: No news on Ticketron.com www.ticketron.com which is the corporate monster that has a stranglehold on ticket brokering in the USA (not America, okay?) doesn't have any dates for "Joni Mitchell". Lama My old friend Joe Farrell asked, >>>I notice that on the Nonesuch website they say that Joni is considering doing some selected dates to support the release of Travelogue. Anyone out there know any more about this?>>> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:10:04 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Evian takes us down the memory trail vince wrote: > Rob Procyk & Tracy Tolley wrote: > > > Ok, so Jimmy jogged the memory -- let's make a list to see who can > > remember what: > > 10.) Who remembers... lol, now I can't think of her name -- she was a > > big Ferron fan... jog my memory. > Sherrie Good? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:17:33 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Oil/war/UN resolution (njc) (pc) kakki wrote: > Colin asked: > > > There is a case against Hussein, yes. But why should he listen when he > sees the > > double standards? When he sees others ignoring the UN? > > Maybe it's more that he has ignored the resolutions for years and the UN and > its members have basically let him get away with it repeatedly. like Israel? Like the US? This whole thing does not make much sense which is why I think people think there is somthing else behind this. Don't forget that the USA put Saddam where he is. They supplied him with weapons. I cannot see why we have the right to disarm anyone or demand they ahev a different leader. How would we feel if China decide to throw it's weight arund and demand we get or of Bush/Blair and our bombs? And what about North Korea? Oh we leave them alone becuase the consequences could be horrendous. Trouble is we think that the consequences of bombing Iraq will not be great. We will find out too late just how severe the consequences are. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 04:32:44 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: JMDL, ye olde daze, njc Susan, L.A. Chaloner. She was in and out of jmdl many times and she's was brilliant with a tagline. She always repeated the theme of her post with a perfect metaphor, quoted directly from a song. Susan referred to herself as 'an aviator' but that was a ruse. In reality, she was one of Colin's many pseudo-names. :) Just kidding. Maybe Susan was one of Evian's many pseudo-names?? Say, she used 'sympatico.ca' as her isp too, Evian! What's going on? Hoping to channel for the wonderful aviator, I remain Lama "and the beat goes on" Evian dared us to recall: >>>>10.) Who remembers... lol, now I can't think of her name -- she was a big Ferron fan... jog my memory.>>> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:42:10 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Oil/war/UN resolution (njc) (pc) colin wrote: > like Israel? The UN is after Israel all the time. Problem is that Israel keeps getting attacked, too, so there's no easy solution. >Like the US? Please direct me to information where the US has defied UN resolutions against it. > This whole thing does not make much sense which is why I think people think > there is somthing else behind this. I tend to think people think there is something behind this because of the Bush/Cheney oil connections. If it were any other US president, I'd bet money there would be a different take on it. Why is Blair so convinced that something has to be done? Please don't tell me that Blair is Bushes poodle. In any other world Blair and Bush would not be natural political allies. In fact, it has been Blair's repeated dire warnings that have convinced me much more than anything said by people in U.S. government. >Don't forget that the USA put Saddam where he is. They supplied him with weapons. We know. We were wrong to do it. > I cannot see why we have the right to disarm anyone or demand they ahev a > different leader. I see that point, too. But the other side of it is that other countries who have weapons of mass destruction are not using them daily on their own people, nor posing a direct threat to other countries with them >How would we feel if China decide to throw it's weight arund and demand we get or of Bush/Blair and our bombs? They wouldn't because then they would have to give up their weapons. > And what about North Korea? Oh we leave them alone becuase the consequences > could be horrendous. No, they have been being called on their actions, too. Question as to why we don't approach them in the same way as Iraq. Answer because it is a different region and a different situation which is being worked on in a different way at this point. > Trouble is we think that the consequences of bombing Iraq will not be great. We > will find out too late just how severe the consequences are. I don't think people are not afraid of the consequences of bombing Iraq. I think most everyone is scared s***less. The million dollar question is what happens if we don't try to stop him soon. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:02:15 +0800 From: "Australian Seashells" Subject: P. Gabriel interview on BBC2 Oct. 16th 2002 - Joni mention Just got back from a month's travelling by boat (no e-mail) and not sure whether this has already found it's way to the list or not - but I thought it's an interesting snippet of info in regard to the recent discussion on Joni's view of the music business. She's so right! Upon my return I found this tape sent to me from the U.K. with an interview that was broadcast on BBC 2 on October 16th 2002 with Richard Allinson interviewing Peter Gabriel about his new album 'UP', record labels and 'Thomas The Tank Engine', among other things. PG & Richard discuss the fact that the approach of record labels and media to rock music, in particular to the age of the musicians, hasn't changed in over 30 years ( i. e. the news-worthiness of The Stones or Paul McCartney being over 40, then over 50 (gasp!), etc..). Here's a transcript of the relevant bit: PG: >>>> "The mythology about 'Rock' is that it is this sort of testosterone filled late adolescence music. Which is certainly part of it's origin - but it's become another form of music, for better or for worse. You don't dump writers, film directors, painters when they hit 50, 60, whatever. If they've got something to say, let them say it. But record labels? Now I remember one conversation with a record label boss in America, talking about Joni Mitchell - and he said: " Well, she's a woman and she's over 50 - and that these were two reasons why they shouldn't spend money on her". Both very stupid in my mind, because there's a great artist there who's still doing great work.">>>> And also: >>>>" Some artists definitely do their best work while they're young but don't eliminate everyone due to age - but rather use your ears and intelligence">> _______________________________________ Peter still uses his ears apparently. Cheers, Simone ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:20:31 -0000 From: "joe farrell" Subject: Re: No news on Ticketron.com Thanks for the info Jim, though it isn't good news...yet. We live in hope. Regards, Joe. NP: Rachel Z Big Yellow Taxi. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama) To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:34 AM Subject: No news on Ticketron.com > www.ticketron.com which is the corporate monster that has a stranglehold on > ticket brokering in the USA (not America, okay?) doesn't have any dates for > "Joni Mitchell". > > > Lama > > > My old friend Joe Farrell asked, > >>>I notice that on the Nonesuch website they say that Joni is considering > doing some selected dates to support the release of Travelogue. Anyone out > there know any more about this?>>> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:30:00 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Travelogue comments from Owen Here's a message about T that was sent to me to forward...Apparently Owen can read mail but can't send from the Outlook Express he's using. Anyway, here's his message: >I've had great difficulty posting anything to JMDL recently (not the lists >fault, its my email), but I really hope this gets through. I just wanted to >say that I think 'Travelogue' deserves a lot of respect, even if it isn't >to your taste. So much effort has gone into this music, from Joni's >original creation of the songs to the way every memeber of the orchestra >plays and the way it is recorded and engineered. I know enough about >recording and creating to know that this is a massive, massive achievement. This is the sound of the highest of human endeavour. And it is a sad, sad thing to hear when nearly all else you see reminds you how rotten we've become. I know that many people won't really dig this music. A friend of mine who's a socialist can't stand any music with an orchestra near it because she associates it with elitism. Another couple of friends would hear echoes of the emotional manipulation present in the scores of mainstream Hollywood films. But for those who are simply dismissing it as a "re-hash", and bland, please at least respect the fact that possibly hundreds of people have given their absolute best in what you hear. Not for money, or for fame, but just for it to be heard. If it isn't to your taste, that's cool, but I don't think I can bear to hear something so special (whichever way you look at it) being panned, when the rest of humanity is busy chasing itself down the drain. "Freely I slave away for something better" O ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:38:25 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: RE: Travelogue question (again) I remember MINE - I sent an email intended for my nephew, Jon, to the Joni list. Fortunately it was just puzzlingly irrelevant rather than truly embarrassing. At 10:48 PM 11/9/02 -0600, you wrote: >1.) Who can think of at least 3 times when a private email accidently >got posted to the list (still saying Hail Marys here for that one, let >me tell ya!) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 10/24/02 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:43:08 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: DED njc In a message dated 11/9/2002 10:20:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, courtandspark@earthlink.net writes: > To be short and to the > point, I love it. > Some great stuff on DED to be sure, Mack...would love to hear more once you get a chance to digest it a little. Bob NP: Steve Klink, "Night Ride Home" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:43:13 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: [none] Kate I understand that you would have a more intricate take on this whole welfare and irresponsible parenting issue because of your line of work. I wonder if you, as someone who works with people in need of welfare, realize when certain individuals are using the system. Here in Miami(probably the fraud capital of the world), I can tell you that there are many wed and unwed mothers that claim their husband or boyfriend(the father of the children) has left them when they in fact are still very much together. Some of them really play it up by living separately for awhile but others continue to blatantly live together. How do we stop this? How do we stop the families that have been on welfare for generations to stop having children. I never suggested that we, as a nation or government, should force them to get sterilized, I proposed that they get it done out of their own free will and as consideration to those that are having to dish out a lot of money every year to help support them and their children. Some people have suggested "Why don't you report those people that are abusing welfare through their children?" Well I've always thought that the children would end up losing if this would happen. I also understand that now, more than ever, we are seeing a lot of previously stable families become unstable due to job loss. Let me add that there are a lot of people that would not be having such a difficult time with job losses if they did not overextend themselves while they had a job. A lot(not all) of Americans are very big on overextending themselves with expensive toys instead of saving their money for an emergency. Anyways, these are not the people that I was talking about because until recently (before they lost their jobs) they were part of the population that contributed to welfare by just being part of the work force. My aim is to those that plan to make a living off of living on welfare. Some families have been doing this for generations. I assume your cold and cruel comment was specifically towards castrating sex offenders and murderers(or maybe I'm not quite sure what that was in reference to since I think it was a general oneliner type of reply). Some may say that the death penalty is cold and cruel. Others would say that living in a small jail cell is cold and cruel(even though a lot of prisoners live with more comfort than people on welfare-I think that is really crazy). I think that the only thing people would be somewhat okay with is if someone were standing there with a shot gun ready to kill someone as they were committing the crime. We all know that this rarely happens and the sad fact is that after the crime there is always someone somewhere ready to defend these offender and making sure no one is ever cold and cruel to them. Most of these offenders are repeat offenders and thrive on the act of being cold and cruel while they sit there and watch there handy work. I, for one, think that from that point onward nobody should be anything but cold to them. Maybe not cruel but definitely cold. One last thing, castration as a surgical procedure is not a cruel act. Many men with severe prostate problems have to get this procedure done. This would not get performed ala Fidel Castro in a cuban camp(I know an older gentleman,ex-cuban political prisoner, who was castrated by beating in a cuban camp-THAT IS CRUEL!). This is a difficult thing for me to say when I take my spiritual beliefs into consideration but I would be lying if I told you I felt differently. As to this thread, I'm tired already. It is very difficult to get people to see a point clearly through a medium such as this one. That is pretty obvious when you read all the conflicting interpretations to the Joni Mitchell Rolling Stone interview. That went on for days. While some people wrote me stating that most people will misunderstand what you are trying to say so just let it go and don't even bother responding, I found many to be receptive to what I was saying once I explained the thought behind it. Others knew what I meant from the get go by not trying to assume information that was not given. Still, this was a most exhausting experience and before having anybody else insinuate that I'm anti-women, anti -gay or a Nazi, I will keep my comments strictly to music. For those of you who asked for clarification before deciding whether to jump on me or not...I thank you! Will _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:57:01 -0500 From: vince Subject: remembering (again) now njc : > Evian asked: > > 10.) Who remembers... lol, now I can't think of her name -- she was a > > big Ferron fan... jog my memory. Mark E. (on his way perhaps to being Mark E. Mark) replied: > Susan Chaloner! There was a character if ever there was one. > > Anyone remember La Vierge de Huile? (how could you forget him?) > > You're one of my favorites, Evian. How is fatherhood these days? Great to > see you posting every now & then. Susan Chalomer and La Vierge de Huile bring back such memories! Any one have contact with these former JMDLers? And as for Evian, Mark E. speaks for everyone. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:58:50 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: No Subject - njc Will writes: << While some people wrote me stating that most people will misunderstand what you are trying to say so just let it go and don't even bother responding, I found many to be receptive to what I was saying once I explained the thought behind it. >> This is a very forgiving group. Just say you were doing research for a movie role. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:09:31 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Evian's trip down memory lane NJC In a message dated 11/9/2002 11:59:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, evian@sk.sympatico.ca writes: > 10.) Who remembers... lol, now I can't think of her name -- she was a > big Ferron fan... jog my memory. That Susan LA was a weird chick...I remember the website she linked you to at the bottom of her posts - some kind of "leather & lace" lesbian hooker escort service or something... > 9.) Who remembers Bob BEFORE he has "Joni" in his email address? Did > the Joni email start when he sold kayaks? I found it incredibly easier to create a new name on AOL for my Joni mail rather than trying to sift through my main account for it. I created that mail long before I went to work at Perception (which only lasted a year anyway) > 8.) Where oh where has our Jason Maloney gone....? Or Jason Long for that matter...any Jasons out there these days? What is the most popular JMDL name? I would bet there are more Steves than anything. > 7.) Who remembers our frantic search for the AT&T Don Henley benefit cd > thing with Joni? Sure...and now you can get one off of E-bay any day of the week. Typically for about $10 or so. > 6.) Who remembers my incessant ramblings about the genius of Stevie > Nicks and Courntey Love (God, those must have been "Scan and delete" > days for y'all). Evian, you've written some of the funniest stuff I've read on the list...your bit about the cat in the dryer brought tears to my eyes. > 5.) Who remembers the Sweet Bird thread? (I still have no frigging > idea what the hell any of that meant -- waaaay above me) Hey, that's right when I joined in...talk about being intimidated! I figured I'd never be able to communicate to the group, and certainly not at that level. Then that thread died down, and Julie Z started one about "do you flush the toilet while you're still peeing" and I knew I'd fit right in. > 4.) Who remembers the switch to Smoe? Me - AND I remember the introduction of NJC & "Joni-only". > 3.) Who remembers buying either M'shell Ndegocello... or whatever, > Lauryn Hill, or Lucinda Williams because of the raves on the list? Bought the Me'Shell...matter of fact listened to it this weekend. A soul-baring soulful masterpiece of a record. Probably in my top 10. Lauryn Hill was a gift from Brei, which worked out well as I found it derivative, pretentious, and dull. Lucinda's "Car Wheels" I bought based on the RS review, and it too is a masterwork, again probably makes my Top 10. I was probably one of the folks who pushed it in this forum. > 2.) Who remembers the cookbook idea? There was more than one copy...several folks have them, not just Joni. I know Ashara got one at the '99 fest. Bob, who also wonders about Catgirl these days NP: Otis & Marlena from T (reminds me of Costello's orchestration on The Juliet Letters) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:08:26 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Fw: Fw: Fw: The art of misreading. NJC yes well lesbians don't have much taste...ever notice the way they dress? LOL! Yes I notice it a lot! As a matter of fact I own a copy of the "The Lesbians' How to Dress Hand Book". But leather chaps make my but look big! KaseyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:13:38 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Evian's trip down memory lane NJC Bob asks: << What is the most popular JMDL name? >> That would be Bob, Bob. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:17:39 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Fw: Oil/war (njc) (pc) Kakki, Go to the CNN, or Fox News web sites. Both have articles on this. Kasey With all this said, I would still like more details released to the public as to why Saddam is an imminent threat. Donald Rumsfeld and Condoleeza Rice both gave interviews on TV back in September stating unequivocally that there is hard evidence linking Iraq and Saddam with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. I am surprised that more people did not notice this but a lot gets lost in the news coverage. I'd like to hear more about the direct evidence to help myself and others understand the threat better. Although, it's not much of a stretch for me for me to think they are involved with each other. I think we are between a rock and a hard place. All we can do is hope that Saddam agrees with the UN resolution and agrees to the start complying again with the UN rules in his country. KakkiGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 05:24:15 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) kakki wrote The U.S. to get away from its dependency has for years now been importing from South America, Mexico and Canada and I think even some regions in Asia.> Currently we importing 24% of our oil from the Middle East - a lower proportion since the 70's, but up a third in recent years. Production in Mexico and Canada is expected to peak in the next decade. kakki wrote The oil guys are especially eyeing oil production in Russia next now that we are not Cold War adversaries any more. Which begs my question - with so many other sources and opportunities why would the U.S., as opposed to the primary customers such as Europe and Asia, want to tangle with a volatile situation and madman if it were only for oil?> I'm far from an expert, but from what I've read, non-OPEC oil production is expected to decline sometime in the next decade - production from new reserves may just be replacing oil from declining reserves. I know that Iraq has big reserves and that if the western customers had better access the prices would go down (not neccessarily good for the oil companies, though).> Not necessarily bad for oil companies either, prices bottoming out would be bad, but - increased production leading to lower prices could lead to increased consumption, lower transportation costs. And then there's that gleaming possibility of diminishing the influence OPEC has on the global market. And of course another reason for U.S. involvement has been to help protect the countries of Israel and Kuwait and help be some kind of mediator in peace negotiations in the entire region gong back to Nixon. Yes, I agree with you here - particularly with regards to protecting Israel. This of course has influenced U.S. policy of the decades and though I believe oil is a primary reason for our involvement in the Middle East, it is not the only one. Indeed. Like I've always said - if it were up to me we'd leave the entire region on it's own. But part of me also thinks that if we did that and the whole region disintergrated into war, genocide and chaos, I don't know how good I'd feel about myself for turning the other way, either. Kind of like post-colonial Africa... > But it is impossible to not acknowledge the former and present ties they have to the energy industry. Of course, but saying because they were involved in the energy industry that they are only confronting Iraq because of the oil is kind of like saying JFK only confrtonted Cuba and launched the Bay of Pigs invasion because his family wanted to get its monopoly on Havana rums and casinos back.> Sorry, I didn't make it clear - I don't believe their only confronting Iraq because of their personal ties in the energy industry. Many countries are concerned about Saddam's bio, chemical and nuclear weapons. Someone from Canada just sent me the UK's report on Saddam's weapons and how he has used them on his own people - it is long and I haven't had the chance to read it but he tells me it is absolutely chilling.> Yes, it's awful, I agree, but there was a time when we chose to look the other way, when it was to our perceived benefit. And there are many who believe that Saddam does not pose an immediate threat to the western world, that he is less capable of such than he was before the Gulf War. Jenny U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:27:43 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) This has to be the most exciting thread since the death/estate taxes one. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:36:20 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) In a message dated 11/10/2002 8:28:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, Murphycopy@aol.com writes: > This has to be the most exciting thread since the death/estate taxes one. > "Your notches liberation doll" anyone? :~) Bob NP: Joni, "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:40:33 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) Muller writes: << "Your notches liberation doll" anyone? :~) >> Click click . . . BLAM!!! -- B o b ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 05:56:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) kakki wrote:It's a matter of numbers and resources - more people and countries, including the U.S,. are in direct immediate danger from Saddam at this time. If he can be stopped, it is ultimately a humanitarian "win" and may possibly make other despots around the world think twice I'm not sure how that has been determined. Direct immediate danger? I don't think so. More like potentional future danger to those we've considered our allies (Israel, Saudi Arabia) - not necessarily more people in danger, but more people who are important to us. kakki That was back when Iran was attacking U.S. citizens and avowing itself as an enemy of the U.S.. Not to say it wasn't completely boneheaded to have been so quick to support Saddam. I think the reasoning at the time was to let both of them focus on each other rather than other countries. I've seen this question and heard it answered that the U.S. was also an ally of Stalin in WWII but then that all changed very quickly after that war as we all know. Yes, I agree. My point is our humanitarian concerns shift according to what is perceived as in our best interest at the time. kakki I'm still waiting for someone to explain how not trying to stop him will make us safer. If we don't do anything and are attacked in the U.S. with anthrax and smallpox and dirty nukes, which they probably already have in place here, then what do we say? What suggestions do you have to stop the threat? I don't mean that facetiously but it seems no one has any better ideas. I think the Bush administration has succeded in blurring the distinction between Al Qaeda and Saddam. I *wish* they focused as much attention on how they are planning to dismantle Al Qaeda in this country and in others as they do on taking out Saddam. Whether Bush is blamed either way doesn't concern me. Alternatives - I haven't seen any offered except for beginning inspections again. Some people believe these are foolish, others believe they are quite effective. Because someone is against unilateral action - an unprecedented first-strike attack -based on evidence that is either weak, or they are not able to share or confirm - it does not mean he/she wants nothing at all to be done. kakki Yes, for years we've stopped a lot of terrorist groups in the mid-east from attacking us more than they would have if we had just let them go unchecked. However, a lot of our interventions and how they stopped us from harm will never be detailed on TV or universally disseminated. I know this for a fact, and I know that many people in the U.S. who have worked in the government or military also know this for a fact, but are constrained from giving out the details to the public. I'd like to give my own personal knowledge of such instances but I think classified security clearances are in effect forever.> Well, I can't comment on what I know nothing about, but these attacks that we've stopped - would they have even existed were it not for our involvement and presence in the Middle East? If we topple Saddam's regime and install an American administration of Iraq for a year (or more?) as has been most recently offered as a post-war plan by the adminstration, I can only see the number of terrorist attacks here and abroad go up. kakki With all this said, I would still like more details released to the public as to why Saddam is an imminent threat. Donald Rumsfeld and Condoleeza Rice both gave interviews on TV back in September stating unequivocally that there is hard evidence linking Iraq and Saddam with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. I am surprised that more people did not notice this but a lot gets lost in the news coverage. I think they noticed it - it's that it didn't go any further than this. They seem to abandon that line of persuasion. I'd like to hear more about the direct evidence to help myself and others understand the threat better. Although, it's not much of a stretch for me for me to think they are involved with each other. I think we are between a rock and a hard place. All we can do is hope that Saddam agrees with the UN resolution and agrees to the start complying again with the UN rules in his country. Amen to that - and thank goodness for Colin Powell who got us to this point. But we are preparing for war - and I fear it is has already been decided. Kakki, thanks very much for your knowledgeable and thoughful views on the matter. Jenny U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 9:2:5 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: > As to this thread, I'm tired already. It is very difficult to get people to > see a point clearly through a medium such as this one. That is pretty > obvious when you read all the conflicting interpretations to the Joni > Mitchell Rolling Stone interview. hmmm....and I thought the whole point of a debate was to have CONFLICTING opinions. If everybody had the same exact opinion on things well, it would be pretty boring, wouldn't it. It is the nature of words to have conflicting interpretations. >That went on for days. Hence, the term thread. > Others knew what I meant from the get go by not trying to assume information > that was not given. Still, this was a most exhausting experience and before > having anybody else insinuate that I'm anti-women, anti -gay or a Nazi, I > will keep my comments strictly to music. That's a cop out. Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:08:04 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: njc Victrola writes: << If everybody had the same exact opinion on things well, it would be pretty boring, wouldn't it. >> I agree. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:09:34 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Oil/war/UN resolution (njc) (pc) > I see that point, too. But the other side of it is that other countries who > have weapons of mass destruction are not using them daily on their own > people, rubbish. that is not what is happening. > nor posing a direct threat to other countries with them No the USA and UK are a direct threat to all of us. remeber Japan? Cluster bombs in Kosavo? Napalm? Invasions like Grenada? There are none so blind as those that refuse to see. The situation we are in with the terrorists is a driect result of our own treatment of the middle east and our own double standards. We support Terrorists when we feel like it. Don't ever forget all those IRA bombs here and in NI. Paid for with USA money. The UK has blood on it's hands too from it's own interfering. The fact that citizens of this country and your own rewfuse to acknowledge the ahrm we have done, does not mean that harm was not done. We are now reaping what we sowed. This is not the same thing at all as agreeing with the terrorists but one would be an idiot to just paint them as mad people with no legitimate grievances. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:24:54 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Fw: Oil/war (njc) (pc) War does not determine who is right but who is left. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:25:08 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Fw: The art of misreading. NJC kasey simpson wrote: > yes well lesbians don't have much taste...ever notice the way they dress? > > LOL! Yes I notice it a lot! As a matter of fact I own a copy > of the "The Lesbians' How to Dress Hand Book". But leather > chaps make my but look big! oh I thought lesbians liked big butts? (I saw a guy at club once, many years ago, in chaps and a jock strap! Right pratt he looked) > > KaseyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com - -- bw colin TANTRA LHASA APSO (reg 1982) colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:26:11 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Fw: The art of misreading. NJC Colin writes: << (I saw a guy at club once, many years ago, in chaps and a jock strap! Right pratt he looked) >> Was it Muller? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:31:32 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Fw: The art of misreading. NJC Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > Colin writes: > > << (I saw a guy at club once, many years ago, in chaps and a jock strap! Right > pratt he looked) >> > > Was it Muller? I don't know. Has he a tan line and dimples? > > > --Bob - -- bw colin TANTRA LHASA APSO (reg 1982) colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 06:35:02 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Joni, "an original" Okay, since I've been taking part in a political discussion, SOME people find less than titillating - I have been moved to bring up a subject I've been mulling over for a few weeks now... I am sometimes rankled by Joni's references (not undeserved) to herself as an original and her criticism of the lack of originality in the music industry today. She has influenced countless musicians across many genres - but sometimes I feel she is critical of artists who create music in which her influence is obvious - sometimes I think she credits her influence on an artist more than I would (Sting for e.g.). So - this all has me thinking - when is an artist ground breaking - when an artist truly comes up with something new or combines influences in a way that has never been done before? Specifically - when do you think Joni broke some ground? And what was her contribution - lyrical...musical. For pop/rock music history buffs - or heck for people who were actually cognizant at the time - how do you see Joni in the context of popular music? How about in music in general? Did she truly become an original right of the bat with STAS - or was that more a logical, albeit creative outflow of what was happening around and before her? I have a zillion other thoughts/questions, but let's leave it at that.... Jenny Oh dear, now that I'm reading this over Bob M. - I'm not sure it's all that more interesting than oil/war! : ) U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 06:35:49 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Evian's trip down memory lane NJC Sparked by this very entertaining thread about missing jmdlers in action...coming from the kitchen of magsnbrei : brei asks: where is Julie Z? has Marianna graduated from college? and mags wonders: when i joined the jmdl early april, i enjoyed reading Clark's april fool's post about meeting Joni which had lots of us going! Clark where are you? i remember Chili posting a lot in those days. and finally, one of the voices i miss seeing on the list is none other than honeyboi himself, brian gross. ;~) Mags ne: chocolate chip waffles yummmmmmmmmmmm SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 11/9/2002 11:59:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, evian@sk.sympatico.ca writes: > 10.) Who remembers... lol, now I can't think of her name -- she was a > big Ferron fan... jog my memory. That Susan LA was a weird chick...I remember the website she linked you to at the bottom of her posts - some kind of "leather & lace" lesbian hooker escort service or something... > 9.) Who remembers Bob BEFORE he has "Joni" in his email address? Did > the Joni email start when he sold kayaks? I found it incredibly easier to create a new name on AOL for my Joni mail rather than trying to sift through my main account for it. I created that mail long before I went to work at Perception (which only lasted a year anyway) > 8.) Where oh where has our Jason Maloney gone....? Or Jason Long for that matter...any Jasons out there these days? What is the most popular JMDL name? I would bet there are more Steves than anything. > 7.) Who remembers our frantic search for the AT&T Don Henley benefit cd > thing with Joni? Sure...and now you can get one off of E-bay any day of the week. Typically for about $10 or so. > 6.) Who remembers my incessant ramblings about the genius of Stevie > Nicks and Courntey Love (God, those must have been "Scan and delete" > days for y'all). Evian, you've written some of the funniest stuff I've read on the list...your bit about the cat in the dryer brought tears to my eyes. > 5.) Who remembers the Sweet Bird thread? (I still have no frigging > idea what the hell any of that meant -- waaaay above me) Hey, that's right when I joined in...talk about being intimidated! I figured I'd never be able to communicate to the group, and certainly not at that level. Then that thread died down, and Julie Z started one about "do you flush the toilet while you're still peeing" and I knew I'd fit right in. > 4.) Who remembers the switch to Smoe? Me - AND I remember the introduction of NJC & "Joni-only". > 3.) Who remembers buying either M'shell Ndegocello... or whatever, > Lauryn Hill, or Lucinda Williams because of the raves on the list? Bought the Me'Shell...matter of fact listened to it this weekend. A soul-baring soulful masterpiece of a record. Probably in my top 10. Lauryn Hill was a gift from Brei, which worked out well as I found it derivative, pretentious, and dull. Lucinda's "Car Wheels" I bought based on the RS review, and it too is a masterwork, again probably makes my Top 10. I was probably one of the folks who pushed it in this forum. > 2.) Who remembers the cookbook idea? There was more than one copy...several folks have them, not just Joni. I know Ashara got one at the '99 fest. Bob, who also wonders about Catgirl these days NP: Otis & Marlena from T (reminds me of Costello's orchestration on The Juliet Letters) You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:41:40 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Evian's trip down memory lane NJC > In a message dated 11/9/2002 11:59:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > evian@sk.sympatico.ca writes: > > > 10.) Who remembers... lol, now I can't think of her name -- she was a > > big Ferron fan... jog my memory. SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > That Susan LA was a weird chick...I remember the website she linked you to at > the bottom of her posts - some kind of "leather & lace" lesbian hooker escort > service or something... > I had forgotten that - the links to the escort service - gees the current JMDL membership seems tame now! That was a well designed "leather & lace" lesbian hooker escort service website, too. Interesting the Bob Muller is the first and or only one to remember the hooker links... Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:48:37 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni, "an original" Jenny writes: << Oh dear, now that I'm reading this over Bob M. - I'm not sure it's all that more interesting than oil/war! : ) >> But, Jenny, it is! It IS! << when is an artist ground breaking - when an artist truly comes up with something new or combines influences in a way that has never been done before? >> I think this happened when Joni heard the Dylan song that made her realize that lyrics could be about anything. (I forget what song it was, but someone will know.) This lead to her "confessional" period, which was terrific, and then she was off and running . . . out-writing and out-composing everyone, in my opinion, for many years. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:54:41 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Evian's trip down memory lane NJC The Reverend Vince writes: << Interesting the Bob Muller is the first and or only one to remember the hooker links... >> And how odd is it that he's probably in church right now and you're not! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:59:07 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Evian's trip down memory lane NJC > The Reverend Vince wrote: > > << Interesting the Bob Muller is the first and or only one to remember the > hooker > links... >> and SmartAssBobMurphycopy@aol.com zinged: > > > And how odd is it that he's probably in church right now and you're not! > > Now that I cannot find the links, I am on my way... (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:03:01 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Evian's trip down memory lane NJC The Rev. Vince writes: << Now that I cannot find the links, I am on my way... >> << http://www.mullerhookers.com >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:7:51 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: Joni, "an original For pop/rock music history buffs - or heck for people who were actually cognizant at the time - how do you see Joni in the context of popular music? How about in music in general? Did she truly become an original right of the bat with STAS - or was that more a logical, albeit creative outflow of what was happening around and before her? Both. She was truly original right off the bat and was taking in everything that was happening around and before her which helped shape her creative outflow. I think it was definately a combination and that both elements are important. What would be interesting, is if the Joni now, who is 59, could meet the 25 year old Joni. I wonder what kind of a conversation they would have. As much as Joni talks about influencing other people, she herself was undoubtedly influenced by other musicians around her. I've often wondered if she is a Nick Drake fan as they both debuted albums at roughly the same time, though across the ocean from each other. Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:14:26 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Travelogue release / Pearl Jam (sjc) I know there's been some discussion as to who the targeted audience is for Travelogue, or if there even is one, if its marketable, etc.... I thought this was an interesting article on Pearl Jam and the approach they're taking. From today's NY Times: Pearl Jam Turns Pop Fame on Its Head: Less Is More By HUGO LINDGREN EDDIE VEDDER of Pearl Jam, with his basso profundo voice and mile-deep furrows in his brow, was, for a time, the mascot of grunge-era MTV. Then he decided he couldn't take it any longer. Mr. Vedder says the turning point came several years ago when he was in Australia. He had gone to a fair, and, as was his custom, he practically hid in his own clothes: collar turned up, hat pulled low. Minding his own business, he felt a tap on his shoulder; he wheeled around expecting to have to tell a fan to please leave him alone. Instead he saw a friend, a well-known professional surfer. "He was just there with his family, walking around like an ordinary person," Mr. Vedder recalled recently. "I thought right then: That's what I want. That's what I got to get back to." So how do you find a middle ground between fame and reclusiveness? "You stop going on television," Mr. Vedder said. "You get your life back." He and his band mates got their lives back, but at a steep cost - at least if measured in record sales. Every studio album they have made, with one exception, has sold less than the one before it. Their debut release, "Ten," from 1991, sold nearly 10 million copies; their 2000 release, "Binaural," sold 750,000. If Pearl Jam was a stock, you would have dumped it by now. "We decided that our audience needed some serious weeding out," Mr. Vedder said. Pearl Jam's latest album, "Riot Act" (Epic), which is due out on Tuesday, reflects the band's campaign to defuse its popularity. The record sounds as if it were made to slip quietly into the marketplace, connect with the faithful and leave everyone else alone. There is no catchy single, and not even the slightest echo of anything else happening in pop music now. - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:22:36 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Evian's trip down memory lane NJC > << http://www.mullerhookers.com >> Is this any relation to the JMDL hooker service or is this a private enterprise? Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:42:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jesika Nisly Subject: thank you fans! Thank you very much to all who responded to my cry for help! I think this Joni Mitchell paper will turn out good afterall! whew! Jesika U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:56:30 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: thank you fans! Jesika Nisly wrote: > Thank you very much to all who responded to my cry for > help! I think this Joni Mitchell paper will turn out > good afterall! whew! Maybe, but as a former English teacher I think it would be better for you to turn out well. Jerry :-) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #477 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)