From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #475 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, November 9 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 475 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) [Jenny Goodspeed ] having children NJC ["kasey simpson" ] Re: NJC The Election ["PAUL PETERSON" ] re: out original visual concept-sjc ["mia ortlieb" ] RE: The art of misreading. NJC ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: Fw: The art of misreading. NJC [colin ] Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc [TerryM2222@aol.com] Re: njc 8 Mile [TerryM2222@aol.com] Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc [vince ] Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc [colin ] Resposibility of Having Children NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Really, Kate, it's time to 'spill' !! njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Resposibility of Having Children NJC [colin ] Re: Corned Beef Re-hash [FredNow@aol.com] Re: njc 8 Mile ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) ["kakki" ] RE: Travelogue question (again) now njc ["Heather" ] Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) [anne@sandstrom.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 08:39:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) The U.S. has been focusing on this region for decades because of oil. This is why we originally became involved and why we stay involved. We are not dependent on Iraq for oil, but if it's reserves were fully tapped and exported it would have a tremendous influence on world oil prices - which now are greatly influenced by Saudi Arabia and OPEC - and the stability of our relationship with S.A. was called into question after 9/11. This is only one scenario - my point is that U.S. Energy policy goes beyond whether or not we are currently dependent on Iraqi oil. But there is no question that the U.S. has a great stake in the stability of the Middle East. The theory that the Bushes and Cheney, et al could personally benefit financially from was in Iraq just doesn't add up to me.> I agree - though Cheney personally benefitted from the Gulf War - Bush and Cheney are not looking to personally strike it rich by launching an unprecedented attack. But it is impossible to not acknowledge the former and present ties they have to the energy industry. And Cheneys commission on energy policy recommended that the United States "conduct an immediate policy review toward Iraq" that includes "military ... assessments." When he invaded Kuwait, the U.S. did not decide on its own to go and turn him back - the U.S. was asked by the UN and many countries to step in. Now today, we have the UN Security Council in unanimous agreement on the latest resolution to demand that he allow full inspection of his weapons.> Was the U.S. asked to step in when Saddam invaded Kuwait? I remember that differently. I remember us spear-heading the cobbling together of a coalition and doing lots of wheeling and dealing for votes - with Russia in particular. But I'm relying on memory here. True the U.N. passed a resolution unanimously, but the language was changed to so the U.S. and Britain did not secure the automatic authority to attack if Saddam does not cooperate with weapons inspectors. Syria is saying they approved it precisely because of this. We are not privy to the deals, financial and aid-wise that were made to secure votes. I'm not saying this 100% why the resolution was passed - I'm just saying you have to remember the types of maneuvering and negotiations that are part of such a vote. Jenny U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 08:51:00 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) A couple more thoughts: I think the humanitarian argument for initiating a war doesn't fly because it is selective. If we were driven by this, then we would intervene far more often in the world than we do. And frankly, when it was to our perceived benefit to support Saddam against Iran, we took them off the list of countries who supported terrorists and began helping to build them economically and militarily. And the argument that a regime change is necessary for the safety of Americans...I'm still waiting for someone to explain how launching an attack will make us safer? Has our intervention and involvement in the middle east *ever* made us safer? CIA director George Tenet has said an attack may provoke Saddam to use biological and chemical weapons and convince him to begin in earnest to support terrorist attacks against americans. Jenny U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 11:52:13 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: having children NJC I wanted to wade in here on the having children issue. First I do feel that men need to take more responsibility for birth control. However, I do understand the point Will is trying to make. Here in this small town I live in a woman was convicted of trying to suffocate here child. She was sentenced to three years. The father was given custody, he was running for a seat on the school board. He succeeded in killing the 18 month old child. He was sentenced to three years. On the other side, a young woman was arrested for trafficking cocaine, she was sentenced to 25-75 years on each count. The one disappointment I do have in our society is the (lack) of value we place on children, and elderly. We have to have licenses to drive a car, to build, to have a boat, yet any moron can have a child. I understand the anger one can feel over the abuse of a child, physical, mental, or sexual. There was one man in the Dayton, Ohio area that took his four year old by the legs and swung him around like a baseball bat and hit his head into a wall, why? Because the kid put his finger into a pumpkin pie. Although money, and station are by no means a guideline for having children, I do agree that people (men too) should not have children if they are not financially, or emotionally ready for them. Having said that, I just to say I would not be here if my parents had waited for financial reasons. I was born in to poverty at it's worst. We ate milk gravy and white bread. My father would tear covers off match books to put in his shoes to patch the holes. They never went on welfare. My dad started out a box boy, he retired a V.P. same company. The morals, the ethics they showed us live in each one of us. My dads favorite saying to us was, "Don't tell me, show me." That was for anything. Don't say you love me, show me. Don't say you're sorry, show me. I'm sorry I have rambled on so long, but children are a gift. Abortion is an unopened gift, abuse is an abortion. Kasey Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:03:57 -0500 From: "PAUL PETERSON" Subject: Re: NJC The Election This commentary might be of interest to those others on the list who are appalled and frightened by the prospect of a Republican monopoly: Bill Moyers' commentary last night on NOW (9-10 PM on PBS channel 13) Way back in the 1950's when I first tasted politics and journalism, Republicans briefly controlled the White House and Congress. With the exception of Joseph McCarthy and his vicious ilk, they were a reasonable lot, presided over by that giant war hero, Dwight Eisenhower, who was conservative by temperament and moderate in the use of power. That brand of Republican is gone. And for the first time in the memory of anyone alive, the entire federal government < the Congress, the Executive, the Judiciary < is united behind a right-wing agenda for which George W. Bush believes he now has a mandate. That mandate includes the power of the state to force pregnant women to give up control over their own lives. It includes using the taxing power to transfer wealth from working people to the rich. It includes giving corporations a free hand to eviscerate the environment and control the regulatory agencies meant to hold them accountable. And it includes secrecy on a scale you cannot imagine. Above all, it means judges with a political agenda appointed for life. If you liked the Supreme Court that put George W. Bush in the White House, you will swoon over what's coming. And if you like God in government, get ready for the Rapture. These folks don't even mind you referring to the GOP as the party of God. Why else would the new House Majority Leader say that the Almighty is using him to promote 'a Biblical worldview' in American politics? So it is a heady time in Washington < a heady time for piety, profits, and military power, all joined at the hip by ideology and money. Don't forget the money. It came pouring into this election, to both parties, from corporate America and others who expect the payback. Republicans outraised democrats by $184 million dollars. And came up with the big prize < monopoly control of the American government, and the power of the state to turn their ideology into the law of the land. Quite a bargain at any price. That's it for this week. For NOW, I'm Bill Moyers. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 11:36:30 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: re: out original visual concept-sjc Blair wrote: << I was wondering if anyone out there at one point or another in their life heard a record on the radio or at someone's house loved it and eventually bought it. But before you had purchased it, you had no idea what the singer looked like>> I really had no idea who Joni Mitchell was or what she looked like until a classic rock station came to town in the mid 80's and started playing her. I immediately bought every album I could get my hands on! Before that, she was just a credit to me on my CSNY album. I had no mental picture of what she looked like. However, there is one performer that sticks out in my mind at the moment. (At the risk of embarassing myself), I remember hearing Eric Carmen of the Raspberries on the AM radio when I was probably in the 2nd or 3rd grade. After hearing his voice, I fell in (puppy)love with this man. I pictured him as being incredibly sexy and good-looking. I have no idea why. Even to this day, I do not know what the man looks like nor have I purchased any albums either. (sounds a little dated in my head now). Mia _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:50:22 -0600 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Fw: The art of misreading. NJC (as an aside, the rapist in your prison scenario is much more likely to white and str8 tho perhaps not with a 13" dick.) Now see Colin, I'm upset. There you go slamming white men. I've heard (but not been privy to) that white males can be just as big a dick as blacks. I think it's unfair that blacks are considered bigger dicks. I just don't know how these rumors get started. KaseyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:56:50 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: The art of misreading. NJC Will says: A good portion of you guys just fly > of the handle with angry responses that have nothing to do with anything > that I specifically said. Your trying to look for sexism and Nazism... And just an observation here, but it seems that you are doing the very thing yourself you accuse "a good portion of you guys" of doing. You are reading their posts and feeding into them your own feelings of anger and directing them towards yourself personally when if you read these posts again you will find they are completely focused on the issue being debated. I don't think people wake up in the morning and say, "I think I'll go try to find some sexism today and maybe if I have enough time, go look for some Nazism." A general statement like, "I think a large part of the population should be neutered," is going to get a lot of different responses and IMO, can easily be interpreted as sexist. Try to look at it from the reader's perspective for a moment. If you're going to make a statement like that then realize that you may need to clarify yourself and also if you think about it, you're really opening up a huge can of worms that is so broad that it is going to touch on all sorts of issues that may or may not be what you specifically had in mind. Noone can read your mind...remember for the most part all these posts come from people who have never even met each other. > Just read and comment on what is specifically stated, that is all. That is all that anyone did as far as I can tell. Try doing that yourself and you will see that noone is actually angry at you. Victor WP: Velvet Underground Candy Says - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 13:24:43 -0500 From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: The Great Madonna Debate (njc) I agree for the most part with Joni.I'm not especially fond of madonna,or her music,(though I think she made a few fairly good songs.)However,Why did Joni have to critisize Madonna publicly?I don't the purpose of her comments.It seems gratuitous to me... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 19:02:49 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: having children NJC > I > understand > the anger one can feel over the abuse of a child, physical, mental, or > sexual. > > but children are a gift. I couldn't agree more. the abuse of children is sanctioned by society. Always has been. We have had a women's movement, a men's movement, a gay movement, a black movement and countless others ,but no children's movement. People are usally aware when a child is being abused. Neighbours, teachers, meds, church, rellies, someone always knows. They don't want to get invloved, or refuse to believe it, or can't deal with it, or... any number of excuses. Some abuse is even sanctioned in law and by religions. The insidious thing about child abuse is that it goes on to the next genration. 'the sins of the father (and mother) are visited upon the children'. Whilst it is not true that all abusees end up being abusers, it is true that abusers were abusees. these things we so detest do not happen in isolation. We are all responsible. It is we, the public, who do nothing.(of course some of us do not ignore and do what we can). There are nowhere nere enough people willing to stand up and say NO you will NOT do that to that CHILD. Ther easons are many;many people were abused when children and have not come to terms with it, have buried it, have bureid it so deep they cannot see abuse. They still feel it was their fault so they cannot see the wrong in it. 'i was beaten as achild and it didn't do me any harm' is a very common thing to hear. the irony being that if nothing else, the harmm it did them is to make them think it was ok and didn't harm them! Also, even tho it defies logic, people tend to bring their children up they way they were brought up, abuse included. It is very very difficult for people to change their attitudes for in so doing they have to criticise and see that their parents were wrong. A hugely difficult thing to do. Society honours parents, 'honour thy father and thy mother', and people who diss their parents, for whatever reason, are ostracized. When confronted with'my father punche me regulalry' my mother kicked me' my father knocked me unconcious' my father raped me' my moahter molested me' people will still say 'but they loved you really'!!!! You shouldn't hate your parents, you should respect them. Shut up, it isn'yt right to diss your parents like that. However, I feel this a different issue to that of thinking people ought to be neutered. who is so perfect to decide who should live or die and who should breed or not? I quite agree about some people not having children. I see them all around me. But it isn't my decision, i don't have that knowledge or that control, Thank God! As for abortion, i don't like, would rather it didn't happen BUT the ONLY person who has a say in it is the pregant woman. It is her decision and hers only. I do not have the right to judge her nor tell her what she may or may not do. Yes there are abortions that appear to be for frivilous reasons. There also rapes that result in pregnancies. No, we cannot force a woman to carry a child she doesn't want to carry. - -- bw colin TANTRA LHASA APSO (reg 1982) colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 19:04:14 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Fw: The art of misreading. NJC > Now see Colin, I'm upset. There you go slamming white men. > I've heard (but not been privy to) that white males can be just as > big a dick as blacks. I think it's unfair that blacks are considered bigger > dicks. I just don't know how these rumors get started. LOL! You are of course quite right! I think it unlikely that you will find a 13" on either race and if you do, then what the hell would you do with it anyway? > > KaseyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 14:31:34 EST From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc Gosh, I feel so old! Terry > >Someone pleeeeeease??? > >Marcel? IVPaul? Nuriel/Ada? Marsha Doyle????? Someone???? > > > > > LOLOL, oh Jimmy, this is the first digest I've looked at in ages, and I > see this -- hehehehehe, ah, memories..... misty water-colored > memories.... > > Don't go a' changin', > Evian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 14:45:05 EST From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Re: njc 8 Mile Hiya Vince, Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't our pal Em get thrown in jail for beating up the guy who looked at his wife? And didn't he also make news just shortly before he made it big, for saying crappy things about gays? Or am I thinking of a different rapper (in regards to question #2)? Terry, another Deeetroit n a message dated 11/9/2002 1:43:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > If I told you that Em makes a > strong stand against violence against women, a strong stand against > homophobia, would you believe me? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 14:48:54 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc It is a wonderful day when we get to see Evian and Terry's names in the inbox! Whatever happened to Nuriel - you are missed, too! Vince TerryM2222@aol.com wrote: > Gosh, I feel so old! > Terry > > > >Someone pleeeeeease??? > > >Marcel? IVPaul? Nuriel/Ada? Marsha Doyle????? Someone???? > > > > > > > > LOLOL, oh Jimmy, this is the first digest I've looked at in ages, and I > > see this -- hehehehehe, ah, memories..... misty water-colored > > memories.... > > > > Don't go a' changin', > > Evian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 11:56:48 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc Oh please don't, Terry. Because if you feel old than that means I must feel that way too! Mark E in Seattle > Gosh, I feel so old! > Terry > > > >Someone pleeeeeease??? > > >Marcel? IVPaul? Nuriel/Ada? Marsha Doyle????? Someone???? > > > > > > > > LOLOL, oh Jimmy, this is the first digest I've looked at in ages, and I > > see this -- hehehehehe, ah, memories..... misty water-colored > > memories.... > > > > Don't go a' changin', > > Evian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 14:57:56 EST From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc Hell, aren't we considered the elders? The wise? : ) Terry > Oh please don't, Terry. Because if you feel old than that means I must feel > that way too! > > Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 11:58:21 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc vince wrote: It is a wonderful day when we get to see Evian and Terry's names in the inbox! Whatever happened to Nuriel - you are missed, too! I've been meaning to say the same thing...I encourage the silent voices to come forward and talk to us!!! Wonderful to see Terry post so much..perhaps we need another...list of favs or something like that to entice more of the lurkers?? Mags, looking forward to that np: Ashara, Winter Lady, from the Fest CDs (2002). :-))))) You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:00:54 EST From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Re: Colin's post NJC Colin, Couldn't agree with you more. Between this sentence and the fat gay guy in jail, well...maybe it's time to take another leave of absence from this list. Geez o PETE! And from the same person, yet? > imo the latex party hat should always be on regardless. But that would be > inconvenient for you, yes? far better to have your partner take the risks > with > her body. How galant of you. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:01:30 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #474 - Cowbells, Madonna, Influence ....Madonna. In fairness, she did play the cowbell on that album Well, that settles the Joni-Madonna argument right there, doesn't, it (sarcasm). You decide which way. Borderline is one of Madonna's weaker songs anyway. The more recent stuff (Ray of Light particularly) is much better. As for the influence comparison, clearly Joni is more influential on music and Madonna is more influential on popular culture. The two can't really be compared. I hate to say it, but Joni is only ragging on Madonna because Joni envious of Madonna's commercial success. True, Madonna is only modestly talented but I hardly think she's a totally manufactured phenomenon (ambitious and calculated, yes). Now if we want to talk about a singer who is 99% a creation of her own hype machine, I have three words for you to consider: "Superstar Faith Hill." Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:17:45 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #474 - voice >I started losing interest in listening to >Dylan about a decade ago due to his voice deterioration and I >think I'm close to jacking in Joni - well not quite Well, from what I hear so far, Joni is in better voice on T'log than other recent work, certainly better than BSN. Of course the voice isn't what is was, but I'm enjoying the vast majority of this new stuff (her vocals on YDFT and Borderline are particularly good). As for orchestration, I hear more subtlety on this album than on BSN and I don't find it "overblown" in general. I am however having trouble digesting the seemingly awkward arrangement of Hejira, but will need to hear it on a real stereo rather than my old computer. The arrangement on Chinese Cafe sounds pretty cheesy, and that is the biggest miss I've heard so far. Sorry to deconstruct it (I know some of you can't stand that), but I have such a > strong connection and response to Joni's work that I have to share it > somewhere. > > Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 12:27:00 -0800 From: "jeff t." Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #474 - voice >The arrangement on Chinese Cafe sounds pretty cheesy, and >that is the biggest miss I've heard so far. > > Bryan Dear Sir: This is not correct. Sincerely, Jeff _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:49:19 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc Here's one for you. How many remember Meriwether Jones? Mark E in Seattle. > Hell, aren't we considered the elders? The wise? : ) > > Terry > > > Oh please don't, Terry. Because if you feel old than that means I must feel > > that way too! > > > > Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 16:02:59 EST From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc Woa, I DO! Terry, raising hand > Here's one for you. How many remember Meriwether Jones? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 21:12:35 -0000 From: "William" Subject: A Wizard Wheez Vince, <<>> No need to duck just yet. I have been listening to the music files on and off all day and like yourself I'm trying real hard. So far I have managed to half-heartedly 'get' Dawntreader and Love, to a point, but even at that I'm still swithering on the latter. As you say, the album ... differently. Maybe I was just a little shocked at her asthmatic singing at first and I must confess as the day's listenings have gone on, ... am I getting used to her wheez? Still, the strings are seeming ever more pointless and silly. WtS ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:16:10 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc Mark or Travis wrote: > Here's one for you. How many remember Meriwether Jones? ME! Mainly because he has such a wonderful name. i told him so too but maybe he didn't see it as compliment! > > > Mark E in Seattle. > > > Hell, aren't we considered the elders? The wise? : ) > > > > Terry > > > > > Oh please don't, Terry. Because if you feel old than that means I must > feel > > > that way too! > > > > > > Mark E in Seattle - -- bw colin TANTRA LHASA APSO (reg 1982) colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:15:59 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Resposibility of Having Children NJC will > Bottom line, if you can't financially support children then you should not have them....If you can't raise them and support them without the help of any one else, don't have them....Sure there are exceptions but you can't overburden our society with too many of those either.< this is not meant as a personal attack...i take issue with many of your statements...some of which are quite controversial...so what did you expect? we don't live in a world where one's financial future can be predicted...we don't live in a world where both partners always take equal responsiblity in the emotional, financial, physical, spirtitual raising of a child...it is not always easy to predict how someone will fare as a parent...i have been completely suprised by how some who i felt would not be a such great parent, turned out to be superb & likewise the reverse... we live in a world where a spouse or partner can easily leave the entire responsibility of child raising to the other person...woman are in the vast majority of those who are left with this responsibility but sometimes it is men who are left... for years my work has given me the great honor of working with single parents who are struggling to make better lives for themselves & their children (& btw, are very successful doing so) & i see how the small amount of public assistance they receive for a limited time (not enough to live very easily on) is a stepping stone to a second chance in life for themselves & for their children...i see this issue on a personal level, in thousands & thousands of lives...& from what i have experienced..public assistance (welfare) is often a wonderful investment...in addition, there is also a large population of working poor families which is a whole other, very real issue. many people have misconceptions of the welfare system & those who are helped by it...in addition the overall amount of funds that go towards these programs are much smaller than those that go to assisting corporate 'welfare'... (i am sorry that i don't have the numbers readily available on this anymore) ... if anyone is concerned with "overburdening society", this would be a great place to start... >In general, children should be a burden to no one but their parents.< i prefer to use the word responsibiliy, i doubt most parents, no matter how hard their struggle, would ever call their children a burden...i actually prefer to use the word to describe raising children as a 'gift' >In my opinion, if your going to have kids, you better be better than average, because often times just average doesn't cut it.< so is there some little test one can take for this, or perhaps one can just assess one's ability to be 'better than average'? (insert sarcasm) >Sorry Kate, there is nothing "cold or cruel" about that (and the word "holy" has nothing to do with it either).< if you go back to my post you will see that the above statement refered to the snipping solution...perhaps you were not reading closely enough? (more sarcasm) ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:15:58 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: njc well, as i'm sure you are aware that these are pretty hot topics you have brought up & that some will disagree...hope you do not confuse that with personal attack... anyway, this kind of solution you propose still falls into the cold & cruel category in my view...since our judicial system is far from perfect & there are some who have been accused, even convicted of rape or child molestation who have been or may be innocent... workingwilly wrote >As for those men who rape and molest women, castration to all of them!People, please stop unnecessarily attacking me(Steely Dan, Abortion...), I'm a sensitive 90's man-I mean no harm-really!< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:16:01 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Really, Kate, it's time to 'spill' !! njc lama wrote >>Congratulations on your Joni Tribute show. May I change the subject for a second? I've enjoyed "Over The Moon" for a long, long time now and I've been meaning to ask you a brushes-with-greatness question. What's it like to hear your friend Kenny do "House At Pooh Corner" in a song circle? Inspiring? Touching? What?<< hi lama, trying to get me off those political disscussions are you?! lol thanks...i don't remember if kenny played that song in our song circle but i've heard him play the song up close & personal many times...& i've always loved that song...we once talked about how he came to write it & he loved when i said that it reminded me of my favorite chapter in the book by aa milne...when christopher robin was leaving the 100 acre wood...that sparked him & he told me how he wrote it sitting on his bed as a high school student, thinking about leaving home & going off into the big wide world...that blew me away, realizing that he was just a kid when he wrote that song...btw, once i was in idaho skiing with my son & kenny's two oldest boys who are all friends...(they were all around the ages of 8-10)...we drove by a little house on the way to the slopes that had a sign out front that said 'house at pooh corner'...i made them all pile out of the car & stand in front of the sign so i could take their picture...lol... kenny has often played me & anyone who happens to be around, some of his songs-in-progress (just like anyone who writes songs, he loves sharing his ideas as they come to him with his friends & family) i remember that happening with one of his more recent songs called (from the record leap of faith), that is called 'conviction of the heart'...i remember giving him some feedback on that one too...lol...(a word change...i forget now what it was...imagine the nerve!)... i also remember several other of the songs from that album when they were works in progress that he would share as they were being written...i also remember when he came up with the title for the song 'leap of faith'...we'd all seen that movie (i forget which one, but one of the raiders of the lost ark sequels) & there was that line in the movie that sparked him... most notable for me was when he invited me over to work on fine tuning my song wolfsong...he's a friend & i've know him for a long time & hung out with him lots...but this was one of those wow! moments (i'm sitting here writing a song with kenny loggins the hit songwriter)...pretty cool! ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 16:20:30 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: njc 8 Mile TerryM2222@aol.com wrote: > Hiya Vince, > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't our pal Em get thrown in jail for beating > up the guy who looked at his wife? And didn't he also make news just shortly > before he made it big, for saying crappy things about gays? Marshall Mathers was convicted on an assault charge against a guy named Guerra who was involved with Marshall Mather's wife, and was, in MM's opinion, making out with her in public. He is on probation. The conviction was handled in Oakland County, no friend of controversial rappers, and the lack of jail time was considered by defense attorneys who handled the case to be because it really was a minor case, and only brought about because of MM's star status. The probation officer and the court felt that it was a one time thing and that MM was not a violent person nor a threat to anyone. He also has another probation, both cases same time, for I believe a misdemeanor (if I remember right). He has never been incarcerated. Funny you ask, since I have the court records in my office but I am at home now, one of the benefits of working in the legal field in Michigan. In the custody issue in his divorce from Kim Mathers, MM was awarded custody of his daughter. That was a very interesting insight into who he is, because the courts don't usually favor the fathers, especially controversial rapper fathers who are violent. By all accounts, including an intensive Friend of the Court investigation, Marshall Mathers is an outstanding father devoted to his daughter. Interestingly, the other Detroit white rapper, Kid Rock, also has the reputation of being a great father, and also has custody of his child. Would I prefer my musical heroes to have no criminal convictions? Of course. But if I insisted on that, that would eliminate an awful lot of musicians out there. Knowing how the Oakland courts treated his conviction, as well as the custody decision, gives me a lot of context to place these things. If there were any real issues here, Oakland would have hammered him with jail, not probation, and he would not have his daughter. He got in trouble because he had a fight with a guy in a bar parking lot over his wife. Not my preferred behavior, but again, if I eliminated every guy who has ever gotten into a fight with a another guy over a woman... So that is why I think this was a minor thing and he was only charged because Marshall Mathers is Eminem, not because it was any great act of violence. As far as the anti-gay remarks, that is matter of interpretation. Some feel that his lyrics have been homophobic. I thought so once. I do not anymore. When list member Michael Yarbrough challenged us all on that, I checked it out more deeply. Michael and I have discussed this a bit off list. There are wordplays that Eminem does on everything and everyone. There is context. And simply put, I don't think he is homophobic at all. I did a lot of research on the issue, and it was a major reversal of position on my part. In some old, old threads from long ago you will find me saying the opposite. Then I researched it because of Michael's challenge. Even in the most controversial of his lyrics, he raised the question of why two men cannot marry and and did not approve of them not being allowed to. And in the context of everything that he has said, I am very comfortable with Eminem's lyrics on gays. And I think the Elton John/Eminem joint appearance on the Grammies was a statement by both men on this being a non issue. Terry, I am usually very sensitive to even the hint of gay bigotry, and I don't find it in Eminem. The fact the the movie does in a sense go way of its way to denounce homophobia is a statement in itself, not just something in the script in one scene. The movie later makes a second point of the friendship that the character Jimmy Rabbit Smith has with his gay co worker, very positive, and the movie ends with his character returning to be with his gay coworker, and not be with his other friends who want to score with women. Make of that what one will. I probably should get hired as one of his publicists. I think about these things having a 7 year old grandson who is an Eminem fan, and he didn't hear his music from me originally Gage is a kid who lives in his world and the music is everywhere. I have no worries, in part, because we talk about it and what all the music means. I was really impressed with the major spread that the Detroit Free Press gave the movie yesterday. The Kalamazoo Gazette overdid itself in praise of the movie. The movie has the feel of real Detroit (and I did live there for 1.5 years). Many of the locations are near to where Joni first played in Detroit, in the new city area, around Wayne State. In some ways that is the same territory - struggling young artists striving to improve their art. Terry, always good to see you post! Pleas be more present with us! And Brian, this was in part for you in response to your off list post, to answer what you said more fully. I am not trying to bore anyone. I present my case with as much fervor with people who do not get what Joni is all about, and her greatness, too. Of course Joni is great after a lifetime of work still ongoing. Em is half of age and still in the first part of a journey that I think will be equally noteworthy, and has already had some major accomplishments. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:24:59 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Resposibility of Having Children NJC I cannot support myself, never have been able to. been on welfare(disability) since 18 years of age. Perhaps I should be put down..... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:32:39 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: njc 8 Mile The fact the the movie does in a sense go way of its way to > denounce homophobia is a statement in itself, not just something in the script > in one scene. The movie later makes a second point of the friendship that the > character Jimmy Rabbit Smith has with his gay co worker, very positive, and the > movie ends with his character returning to be with his gay coworker, and not be > with his other friends who want to score with women. Make of that what one > will. > > I probably should get hired as one of his publicists. From what you've said about the content of this movie it sounds to me like he doesn't need another publicist. His PR is being handled just fine. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 16:47:11 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Corned Beef Re-hash Gordon Mackie writes: >IMHO Mendozza is a musical furnisher not a great orchestrator. I couldn't disagree more. But that's neither here nor there. What is here and there is this: if Mendoza is lame, why would Joni choose to work with him, not once but twice? Is there something wrong with her musical judgment? Or is it possible that she hears something you may be missing? - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:48:10 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: njc 8 Mile > From what you've said about the content of this movie it sounds to me like > he doesn't need another publicist. His PR is being handled just fine. > By the way, I just read the Seattle Times review and they gave it 3 and a half stars with good reviews for Em, Kim Basinger and the movie as a whole. M E i S ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 17:21:47 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc Mark writes: << Here's one for you. How many remember Meriwether Jones? >> Or (sigh) Wally K? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:11:04 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) Jenny wrote: > The U.S. has been focusing on this region for decades because of oil. This is why we originally became involved >and why we stay involved. That may be why we were originally involved (U.S. involvement goes back to WWII because S.A. was a source of oil for the allies) but it is still Europe and Asia and *their* oil companies that have the most at stake in keeping the region stabilized. The U.S. to get away from its dependency has for years now been importing from South America, Mexico and Canada and I think even some regions in Asia. The oil guys are especially eyeing oil production in Russia next now that we are not Cold War adversaries any more. Which begs my question - with so many other sources and opportunities why would the U.S., as opposed to the primary customers such as Europe and Asia, want to tangle with a volatile situation and madman if it were only for oil? I know that Iraq has big reserves and that if the western customers had better access the prices would go down (not neccessarily good for the oil companies, though). If it is all about money and oil, the prudent oil guys (in order to save money) would just concentrate on making deals with friendlier, more stable countries, no? And of course another reason for U.S. involvement has been to help protect the countries of Israel and Kuwait and help be some kind of mediator in peace negotiations in the entire region gong back to Nixon. >We are not dependent on Iraq for oil, but if it's reserves were fully tapped and exported it would have a >tremendous influence on world oil prices - which now are greatly influenced by Saudi Arabia and OPEC - and the >stability of our relationship with S.A. was called into question after 9/11. Indeed. Like I've always said - if it were up to me we'd leave the entire region on it's own. But part of me also thinks that if we did that and the whole region disintergrated into war, genocide and chaos, I don't know how good I'd feel about myself for turning the other way, either. > But it is impossible to not acknowledge the former and present ties they have to the energy industry. Of course, but saying because they were involved in the energy industry that they are only confronting Iraq because of the oil is kind of like saying JFK only confrtonted Cuba and launched the Bay of Pigs invasion because his family wanted to get its monopoly on Havana rums and casinos back. > And Cheneys commission on energy policy recommended that the United States "conduct an immediate policy >review toward Iraq" that includes "military ... assessments." But Cheney's not the only one concerned. Many countries are concerned about Saddam's bio, chemical and nuclear weapons. Someone from Canada just sent me the UK's report on Saddam's weapons and how he has used them on his own people - it is long and I haven't had the chance to read it but he tells me it is absolutely chilling. > Was the U.S. asked to step in when Saddam invaded Kuwait? I remember that differently. I remember us spear->heading the cobbling together of a coalition and doing lots of wheeling and dealing for votes - with Russia in >particular. But I'm relying on memory here. The U.S. headed up the coalition but was definitely asked by S.A., Kuwait, the UN and many other countries to step in because those other countries did not have the military capability to stop Saddam. S.A. feared he was coming directly for them. > True the U.N. passed a resolution unanimously, but the language was changed to so the U.S. and Britain did not >secure the automatic authority to attack if Saddam does not cooperate with weapons inspectors. Syria is saying >they approved it precisely because of this. We are not privy to the deals, financial and aid-wise that were made to >secure votes. I'm not saying this 100% why the resolution was passed - I'm just saying you have to remember the >types of maneuvering and negotiations that are part of such a vote. Someone sent me the entire resolution which I also have not yet read. I'll have to take a look at it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 18:27:15 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Travelogue question (again) now njc i do! i do! heather the elder - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Mark or Travis Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 3:49 PM To: TerryM2222@aol.com; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Travelogue question (again) now njc Here's one for you. How many remember Meriwether Jones? Mark E in Seattle. > Hell, aren't we considered the elders? The wise? : ) > > Terry > > > Oh please don't, Terry. Because if you feel old than that means I must feel > > that way too! > > > > Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 15:27:24 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) > But my question is why does the U.S. need to focus on the region with regard to oil when we reduced our dependancy on middle east oil by about 75% years ago I'm hoping someone else will be able to answer this more concretely than I can at the moment. Part of my opinon on this stems from the lack of attention we pay to other regions that have little or nothing to offer our economy. I guess the question is "why pay so much attention to certain dictators and certain human rights violators, to the exclusion of others." The answer has to involve some sort of self interest. Is there anything the area around the Persian Gulf offers that other regions (like parts of Africa, for example, or even the Balkans) don't. The answer is oil. Perhaps this sounds convaluted. We court China, in spite of an abysmal human rights record. Why? The promise of trade with millions of Chinese. The U.S. government is acting in the interest of its people and corporations. As it should. BUT we're part of the U.N., which can be a source of conflicted interests. President Bush appears to be putting the interests of U.S. corporations (and even multi-national corporations with some interested U.S. shareholders) first. > But I can't see anything noble at all in what OBL has spawned. Oh, I agree with you entirely. I'm just trying to explain the rationale some of the fanatical and even some middle-of-the-road Muslims might use to explain his appeal. The logic is twisted, but I think I see where it comes from. > OBL offers them the excitement of warrior-hood as a release for their anger and coats it > with a religious pretense so that they feel somehow they are being called to a higher > purpose. It's pure demonic psychology devised by a sociopath. I agree entirely. I hope you don't think I consider OBL anything but the most demented of criminals. > How can the U.S. in any way deal with such a stew? Do we have the qualified > psychologists and diplomats to effectively turn this around? Good questions. If I knew the answers... > You say the Bushes should have given the moderate moslems a seat at the table but I > recall back to Nixon and Kissinger efforts on the part of the U.S. to do just that. Sadly, I think we've changed alliances as it's suited our needs instead of looking at the bigger and longer range picture. We even back the Taliban at one point because we were so anti-Soviet. If President Bush really means it when he says he wants to wage war against terrorism, then he's got to stick to principles that are very difficult. We even have to inform our allies when we think they engage in acts of terrorism. And, yes, that includes Israel. Demolishing the home of the family when one member is a suspected terrorist is in itself an act of terror. It's not just (meaning fair) punishment and smacks of revenge, not justice. > For Al Gore to say Bush squandered a lot of goodwill in just a year just leaves me going "huh?" Well, the world was mourning for us, grieving with us. There was a moment when we could have said, "Enough." We could have called a summit of all the Arab nations and Israel. "Please, help us solve this problem." We could have used the opportunity to begin to forge alliances. And we could have done so even though we took military action in Afghanistan. Mind you, I don't believe we could have implicitly trusted anyone involved, but we could have taken that first small step towards inclusion and understanding. We didn't. And now most of the world hates us. It was an opportunity missed. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #475 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)