From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #474 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, November 9 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 474 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Oil/war (njc) (pc) ["Kate Bennett" ] [none] ["William Chavez" ] Birds & the Bees NJC over 21 only! ["William Chavez" ] Re: NJC - What do Bush and Madonna have in common? ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Sound files location and use UPDATE [ewwt@juno.com] Album #21: "Both Sides Now"..... was "A Travelogue" ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(L] Really, Kate, it's time to 'spill' !! njc ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Resposibility of Having Children NJC ["William Chavez" ] Error Report ["William" ] Re: NJC - 8 Mile [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Error Report ["Moni Kellermann" ] Re: JM v M&M [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Madonna, Eminem NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] re 8 mile NJC [vince ] Re: JM v M&M [vince ] NJC No Wonder... [colin ] Re: The art of misreading. NJC [colin ] Fwd: Re: NJC - What do Bush and Madonna have in common? [Franklin Shea Subject: RE: Oil/war (njc) (pc) >Two people on the list who detest Bush and are anti-war were the first ones who told me that we only got 10% from the entire mid-east. I subsequently read up on it and the official sources said it was around 20-25% with 10% of that from Iraq in exchange for humanitarian services.> re the % ...i admit that i don't remember the exact number but i do seem to recall it was pretty high... >>Well, yeah, but both Bushes and Cheney are putting themselves on the line as the number one targets to be taken out and obviously know that the biggest bullseye is on their heads and the heads of their families, right? I don't think they want to risk personal suicide for a legacy.>> actually i was speaking in terms of what motivates wealthy people in general...it is generally not the accumulation of wealth but something more than that... which of course depends on the individual...one would have to know more about the individual to understand what that motivation might be... >We don't have all the magic answers for solving all the rest of the world's problems.> no certainly not...but our govt (both parties btw) foreign policies have been the cause of problems as much as the solutions...is this not true? does anyone believe the us govt has been faultless in this area? >I think you underestimate the ability of Americans to be enlightened and compassionate. It breaks my heart completely and leaves me mostly speechless that you and many others on the list seem to truly believe that anyone with a different idealogy in your own country is less than human and all to blame for any problems not only in the coutnry but in the world. I just can't get over it. I always thought we were all one people in the end, but what I read here tells me that maybe that was never true. I don't know what to do about it other than to hope it changes some day.< i am not sure how the above relates to anything i wrote in my post... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 03:19:27 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: [none] >So a woman who is not receiving welfare is responsibly using contraception >-- which would indicate to me that she either does not want or is not ready >to raise a child -- and gets pregnant more than once and chooses to abort >more than once, and she should elect sterilization? Lori, Obviously there are SOME exceptions but for the most part when contraception is used, and a pregnancy still results, I would dare say that it is usually more do to human error in usage of cotraception than faulty contraception. Yes, this includes responsable individuals as well. Human error resulting in pregnancy includes everybody from those who are trying hard to be responsible all the way down to the blatantly negligent. I do think it is a VERY small percentage of couples that have MORE THAN ONE unwanted pregnancy result despite the fact that they are taking ALL measures to prevent it. You would be surprised on how many men don't know how to use a condom correctly or how many women forget to take a pill. When I was in a steady relationship I made it MY priority and responsability to make sure my girlfriend took her daily medication. Whenever I heard the words "I forgot!" the latex party hat would go back on for at least a week. No risks were taken! I know you probably could not state this for many men but if my girlfriend ever had to get an abortion due to OUR negligence (and I do consider it OUR negligence, not just hers) it would emotionally scar me to the same degree that it would her. Obviously, she would also have the physical aspect of the whole ordeal that I would be spared-what can I say , its rough being a woman! As far as men go, I'm with you there! SNIP! SNIP! Lets face it, with the population the way it is, once a man has fathered a child (responsably of course), vasectomy is a great, relatively non-invasive, low-risk procedure. Especially with the given fact that men are genetically programed to stray, despite what our society tries to dictate upon us. NO(let me repeat it)NOOOOO, I'm not condoning the fact the men should cheat(especially if they are from a civilized society that frouns upon it), but there is a genetic and scientific reason why men have a hard time keeping their "workingwillies" in their pants. Male primates are basically polygamous and female primates are basically monogamous. This is programmed in that part of the central nervous system called the BRAIN(sorry-difficult computer to reprogram). The big "Snip" would keep mistake number one (cheating on female spouse) from producing mistake number 2 (pregnant female neighbor). As for those men who rape and molest women, castration to all of them! Forget the total scrotal ablation(an empty scrotal sac is a great reminder why they got castrated to begin with). To those who rape and molest children, castration and then put them in one of those prisons where the inmates have no tolerance for child molestors. If he gets raped and killed by a 300lbs gay black man with a 13incher it serve him right! With a solution like that, who needs to discuss capital punishment?!?! Capital punishment, I could see half of you out there really blowing a gasket over this topic. "cuchi, cuchi" (I'm a huge Charo fan!!!! I bet you anything Joni loves her too!) Will P.S.-People, please stop unnecessarily attacking me(Steely Dan, Abortion...), I'm a sensitive 90's man-I mean no harm-really! As Jewel would say (in a girlish voice)-"Please be careful with me, I'm sensitive and I'd like to stay that way" _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 03:40:10 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: Birds & the Bees NJC over 21 only! Sorry, I forgot to put NJC on my last submission. I hope this doesn't mean I'm gonna get dozens of hate mail!!!! I'm sorry really I'm! I also forgot to spell check! I guess I don't know how to spell the word responsible(responsable). Oh, just figured out the problem, the "a" is right beside the "i" on the keyboard (at least on my keyboard it is-Hee, Hee:-) _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 00:46:30 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Madonna, Eminem Hi List -- Borderline is a lovely song. In fact, It's my favorite Madonna song. However, it was written by Reggie Lucas, not Madonna. In fairness, she did play the cowbell on that album. It's a well-known "secret" in the industry that Madonna may not have a significant hand in some of the songs that are credited to her (was that diplomatic enough?). Lucas IS credited with Borderline, from her premier lp. Vince, did I miss something? Is this list anti-Eminem? The Eminem Show is the best lp of the year! Best, David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 00:50:08 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: NJC - What do Bush and Madonna have in common? Yes, I'm afraid Oliver > Stone in his brilliant work "JFK" hit the nail on the head. The > assassination of Kennedy (spoiled, reckless, self-indulging fool that > he was) marked a watershed regarding the political landscape of this > nation. We slid, or were rather adeptly guided, into a unique, subtly > instigated plutocracy, run by the shadow fascist, despotic, > Industrialist Billionaire's club. I have been watching the mini-series 'I Claudius' with my friend Melanie on dvd for the last two Saturdays. I think we've gotten about halfway through the series. The series was adapted from a series of novels that were based in historical fact. One of the main characters in this story about the Caesars of Ancient Rome is the wife of the Emperor Octavian, a Machiavellian lady by the name of Livia. Livia's goal is to make her son Tiberius the successor to Octavian as Emperor. In order to accomplish this she has poisoned her previous husband and at the place in the story we are up to now, she has also poisoned one of her sons, two of Octavian's grandsons and finally Octavian himself. She also succeeds in alienating Octavian from his daughter Julia, prompting him to banish her from Rome and blackmailed her own grand-daughter into betraying another member of the family. I wondered, while watching all of this, if Christianity had had much success in making people more respectful of the value of human life. Then I recalled another movie called 'Queen Margot' adapted from a Dumas novel but also based in historical fact. Catherine de Medici is one of the main characters in this movie and she is another manipulator who employs poison or whatever means she needs to keep her hold on the reins of power. Ultimately she & her sons set in motion the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in which Catholic soldiers ran amok through the streets of Paris and slaughtered hundreds of Protestants. I've been thinking about these stories from the pages of history in relation to some of the threads about oil and power and wealth that have been going on lately on the list. I have to wonder sometimes if what Franklin wrote in his post about the leaders of this country and the powers behind them is true. Humans have committed countless atrocities on other humans throughout history for the sake of power and wealth. Why should it be any different now? Are we really any more civilized than the Romans were? Don't we still have ruling classes? And why would they be any less cavalier about the welfare of us 'little people' (remember Leona Helmsley?) than the Medici's or the Julians were? I don't know. I certainly felt that Reagan was a puppet. I've begun to think that Clinton probably was too. And I have no reason to doubt that the same is true about either one of the Bushes. I don't mean to fan the political flames but to be quite honest, I haven't known who to really trust in the political arena for a long time. And I do believe there are people in this country and this world, for that matter, who have way more than they could ever know what to do with and who only seem to want more... Mark E. in Seattle Deep in the night While madmen sit up building bombs And making laws and bars They're gonna slam free choice behind us ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 01:00:56 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Best of the Year NJC I said: Vince, did I miss something? Is this list anti-Eminem? The Eminem Show is the best lp of the year! I meant to say the best pop lp that has already been released this year. David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 04:01:57 -0500 From: ewwt@juno.com Subject: Re: Sound files location and use UPDATE Moni Kellermann kellerfrau@gmx.de wrote: << For those of you who didn't have the time to grab the previews so far, here are the complete file paths: http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/amelie.swf http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/borderline.swf http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/cherokee.swf http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/chinesecafe.swf http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/circlegame.swf http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/dawntreader.swf http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/hejira.swf http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/lasttime.swf http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/love.swf http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/otisandmarlena.swf http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/refugeofroads.swf http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/slouchingtowards.swf http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/woodstock.swf http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/youdream.swf >> THANK YOU MONI!!!!! I just resubscribed to the JMDL last night after a few years, yearning for news about the Nov 19 release of Travelogue, and was stunned to get this great gift in my first digest. I've been digesting these songs all day and night! I have never looked forward to an album's release more than this one and am in complete SIQUOMB heaven thanks to your extremely thoughtful post! Slouching Toward Bethlehem has been my favorite Joni tune since 1991 (especially her Day In The Garden rendition) but OHMYGOD/DESS this Travelogue version far surpasses even my wildest expectations!!! Otis And Marlena has long been among my top ten and certainly shines on this new CD. I'm also incredibly impresses with You Dream Flat Tires and Hejira. But I can't wait to hear Coyote!!! Travelogue is Joni's answer to a boxed set and she has just proved to me once again that she is by far the most talented artist of our era. I love that she is highlighting her incredibly interpretive voice once again, as if to blow smoke in the face of critics who still wish that she were a soprano. Thanks again, moni!!!!! ET ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 04:29:09 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Album #21: "Both Sides Now"..... was "A Travelogue" Wow, this is kinda how I felt about the studio versions on Album #21, "Both Sides Now". I was more than surprised when I saw her in an evening gown singing those same tunes in front of an orchestra, though and that's what I want to explore tonight. I had only a recently (10/26/98- thanks Simon!) seen her opening for Dylan in a hockey arena. In 98 Joni stopped to lecture some "rude assholes" (and worse) for mocking her from the 7th row. As I recall, she wore a Parker Fly electric guitar the whole time except for near the end when she slid off the guitar, lit a cigarette (in a No Smoking arena), and sang "Trouble Man". On the other hand, the tour following "Both Sides Now" in '00 was just other worldly. The theater aspect of the BSN tour "cast" her in a different role entirely. Joni, in front of an orchestra, is the grand dame of Bel Air. The very setting makes the audience reflect on where they've been and what Joni's music (and stories) meant all those years ago. To me in '00, I kept shaking my head, thinking, "This is like a dream-show. This is like Joni-in-heaven somehow." It was like a coming-out-of-retirement show. It was like seeing Dave Brubeck at 70 doing "Blue Rondo ala Turk" with an orchestra. It was almost maudlin because it makes you sentimental and weepy. Lama Vince said, >>>And as a seasons ticket holder to the opera and great lover of classical music, I am not impressed by what sounds to me more typical overblown orchestrations. Kind of like the Hollywood Sgrings playing Beatles songs, except in this album we have Joni singing.>>> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 04:34:50 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Really, Kate, it's time to 'spill' !! njc Congratulations on your Joni Tribute show. May I change the subject for a second? I've enjoyed "Over The Moon" for a long, long time now and I've been meaning to ask you a brushes-with-greatness question. What's it like to hear your friend Kenny do "House At Pooh Corner" in a song circle? Inspiring? Touching? What? Lama ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 04:41:08 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #473 - 8 mile NJC If I told you that Em makes a strong stand against violence against women, a strong stand against homophobia, would you believe me? I promise I will believe you, but can you be specific? And do you believe that Mr. Em is really making those statements, or just acting? > Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 10:04:07 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: > When I was in a steady relationship > I made it MY priority and responsability to make sure my girlfriend took her > daily medication. no matter how you desire to control, it is her responsibilty alone regarding what goes into her body. > Whenever I heard the words "I forgot!" the latex party hat > would go back on for at least a week. > imo the latex party hat should always be on regardless. But that would be inconvenient for you, yes? far better to have your partner take the risks with her body. How galant of you. > > > > > As for those men who rape and molest women, castration to all of them! oh yes, that will put a stop to it. It is just about sex after all..... > > > To those who rape and molest children, castration and then put them in one > of those prisons where the inmates have no tolerance for child molestors. And children would suffer more because they will report even less than they do already if they thought their abuser would be killed. they feel enough guilt and hsamew without this burden being put on them. > If > he gets raped and killed by a 300lbs gay black man with a 13incher it serve > him right! why do gay and black and fat figure so highly in your horrid factor? you agian: With a solution like that, who needs to discuss capital punishment?!?! Capital punishment, I could see half of you out there really blowing a gasket over this topic. me: Why blow a gasket? the world is full of people with this opinion that brings their own humanity down to the level of these perps. I am as appalled by the sentiment you have expressed as I am by the behaviour of the people you hate to the point of allowing your own humanity to be diminished. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 05:51:38 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: Resposibility of Having Children NJC holy shite...this is cold & cruel...what about parents who have kids & the funds to raise them but do so irresponsibly (abuse, neglect, or just plain rotten values)? You are absolutely right!!! They should not have children either. Just because you have money should not give you the privilege to have children. There are many financially secure individuals that have no concept of raising children and so those children grow up to be irresponsible, neglectful and down right rotten. These children grow up to be a psychological burden on our society. Likewise, there are many poor individuals who have impeccable morality and ethics, but if they are on welfare, then they have no reason to be having children that become a financial burden on our society. Bottom line, if you can't financially support children then you should not have them. If you can't raise children to be moral and ethical individuals then you have no right to have them either. We can talk about exception until the cows come home and some of those exceptions are VERY valid and others are a crock of crap. In general, children should be a burden to no one but their parents. There is no such thing as a perfect parent and don't ask me to come up with the guidelines or definitions of a good parent. In my opinion, if your going to have kids, you better be better than average, because often times just average doesn't cut it. If you can't raise them and support them without the help of any one else, don't have them. Having children is not a necessity, it is a privileged luxury. Sure there are exceptions but you can't overburden our society with too many of those either. Sorry Kate, there is nothing "cold or cruel" about that (and the word "holy" has nothing to do with it either). My grandmother(having been upper-middle class in her country) came to this country and became part of the lower class non-English speaking population. She arrived here with 3 children and extremely grateful that this country took her and her children in. She learned English as best she could and got herself a job as a factory worker. Never once did she burden this country by asking it for food stamps, welfare checks, or any other assistance, etc... She was given an opportunity and made the best of it. She wasn't a perfect mother but she was way above average! Recently, I sat and listened to a conversation between two friends of mine. One of them an American by way of acquired citizenship(living in this country for 20 years after political asylum), the other a native born American from many generation past. Both of them had financial difficulties and the usual maxed-out multiple credit card syndrome. The native born stated "Why don't you just apply for bankruptcy? That's what I did!" The the non-native born replied "I could never do that to this country, its given me too much for me to pass on my financial responsibility to some one else". I wish more native born and non-native born US citizen had such a healthy outlook on responsibility towards our country instead of overburdening it. I can't tell you if this lady would make a great parent, but she's got some of the ingredients I'd be looking for. Will _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 06:52:10 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: The art of misreading. NJC as for the rest of this mail, I pretty much agree with Kate and Lori. I would have been much more blunt about my reaction. They(K & L) are more restrained. The horors of Nazi Germany didn't succeed in educating us all it seems. You know a lot of people are probably skimming through the list at a very rapid rate and are commenting on things that they think they read that were never really written. C'mon my comment has nothing to do with Nazi Germany or any other of that stuff you guys are implying. My statement is only about responsibility. Responsibility to children, to the society we share our children with. Where did you get Nazi from? This list is supposed to be read by people who pay real close attention to content! How could you ever get past a Joni song with out carefully reading for content. A good portion of you guys just fly of the handle with angry responses that have nothing to do with anything that I specifically said. Your trying to look for sexism and Nazism were it doesn't even exist. Some of it is soooo far off I can't even say you guys are reading between the lines. There is no wolf in lambs clothing here and you definitely don't need to play this record backwards for hidden meanings. Just read and comment on what is specifically stated, that is all. My entire view on a subject can't possibly be completely explained in a few paragraphs and just because I fail to touch on a certain aspect of a particular subject does not infer that I am discounting or disregarding it. Nazi??? Hello! I'm gonna stick to just the music 'cause you guy are out of control! Good grief!! Will _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:18:36 -0000 From: "William" Subject: Error Report Thanks Moni for posting the file paths. I did have some trouble with them, in more ways than one. I thought I'd try them in order but I had already heard the first one Amelia so I moved on. Borderline up next but each time I opened the file I had one of those Microsoft Error Report boxes. So I skipped to Cherokee Louise - I could hardly wait. An absolute NRH fave of mine and as for the Just Ice version with the so-eloquent preamble, so-o-o-o spine tingley. Getting to the point, Cherokee Louise was hiding behind another Error Report box though I could hear her this time. I couldn't bear to finish listening to http://feature.atlrec.com/buzztone/joni_mitchell/cherokee.swf I moved on and on and each time an Error Report box came up on screen and no songs. 'Twas only then I thought how befitting. The writing's on the screen, so to speak. As I said to LesR earlier yesterday, I started losing interest in listening to Dylan about a decade ago due to his voice deterioration and I think I'm close to jacking in Joni - well not quite. Here was me thinking I was a die-hard too. Someone mentioned expectations. There's the rub. WtS ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 07:42:06 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - 8 Mile Vince wrote: > If I told you that the > message of the movie, loud and clear, is to work hard, work harder, for > what you want to accomplish in life, would you believe me? No, I guess > no one will, except maybe Bob Muller and Jerry. So you guys, go see > it! Everyone else, well, you are missing one hell of a good film. > > vince > > Er, Vince ? Calm down. Relax a bit. Listen to Travelogue. He may not be for me, but I am con'vinced' (in no small measure because of what you have posted over the past year) that M&M is a genuine talent. As for the rest of us not believing you, you are no doubt wrong (by how much, I can only estimate, but since I believe you, you are at least a little bit wrong). When you conclude "No, I guess no one will, except maybe Bob Muller and Jerry", are the rest of us to infer that you are insecure, and believe that only Bob and Jerry are accepting of you, or that your feeling is that the rest of us do not have sufficient openness, vision and capacity to join that select group ? ;-) PS - I am only ribbing you in a friendly way, Vince PPS - I will see the film PPPS - For everyone else, if you don't trust Vince, the film has been very well reviewed so far ;-) PPPPS - NO WAY I'm gonna be able to talk my wife into it (she doesn't trust Vince or anyone else where 'rap' is concerned) :-) Bob S ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:51:34 +0100 From: "Moni Kellermann" Subject: Re: Error Report - ----- Original Message ----- From: "William" To: "JMDL" Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 1:18 PM Subject: Error Report > each time I opened the file I had one of > those Microsoft Error Report boxes Tell Bill Gates about it ;) Probably some mistake with Active X, Flash Plugin, your Internet Explorer (or other browser) etc. If you download the files and play them one by one, there should be no problem at all. As I mentioned earlier, the swf files are basically mp3 files which can be extracted. If you are too lazy to mess with the files, check http://siquomb.tripod.com/ if you can find something of interest there. :)) Of course, I don't have any idea how the files got there :)) moni ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 08:22:27 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: JM v M&M Vince wrote: > I was thinking about how Detroit and the connections > between Joni and Eminem, one who developed her talent in Detroit and one > who > developed his talent in Detroit and what the difference is between the > music > that I heard today, Joni's and Em's, Vince, You listened to STAS or Blue or Hejira or DJRD today ? Or Travelogue ? If the latter, I would venture the difference is 25 or 30 or 35 years. > > and I got to be thinking that Joni needs to spend a little more time in > Detroit. I think she is too used to her clean white linens and needs to > spend > a little more time scrambling down in the street - I think Joni has been there, done that, and does not need to get mugged. :-) Maybe there are other places less dangerous that would help her get her creative juices flowing again. Or maybe all she needs is a little more time to get them going. > > and that others will differ with me, that is way cool because the value of > this > community is the 800+ insights, not any one person's opinion. > > There you go - even if 797+ of them disagree with you ;-) Bob S Hoping I am still around to listen to M&M's new recording when he's 59 :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 08:40:27 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Madonna, Eminem NJC In a message dated 11/9/2002 3:46:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, davidmarine@mindspring.com writes: > Borderline is a lovely song. In fact, It's my favorite Madonna song. > I have to admit that while I'm no Madonna fan, I do think that "Dare to Tell" & "Get Into the Groove" are great songs too...and I'm sure she didn't write them, but she brought them to the marketplace. Franklin, I loved your piece on Madonna - brilliant. Bob NP: Joni, "Circle Game" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 09:00:50 -0500 From: vince Subject: re 8 mile NJC BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: > I wrote: If I told you that Em makes a strong stand against violence against > women, a > strong stand against homophobia, would you believe me? > > BRYAN8847@aol.com responded: I promise I will believe you, but can you be > specific? And do you believe that Mr. Em is really making those statements, > or just acting? > There are those of us who don't think that Em ever advocated homophobia or violence against women. Oh, I know if you pull a lyric here and there and take things out of context or at face value that it may seem so, and that has been done with great extent against Eminem. You can do that with, oh, say, Verdi, Mozart... I think you have always had Em describing life as it is and when the whole albums have been listened to, it has always been clear who Em is saying that the losers are. Then again, I also believe the Bret Perry Ellis was using his artistic abilities to describe life as he saw it as opposed to advocated violence in American Psycho. I also believe the Oliver Stone was describing, not advocating, violence in our society in Natural Born Killers. I don't think the original Willy the Shake was advocating murdering family in Hamlet or your rivals in MacBeth or turning your father out to die in Lear. What Em has always done is describe life as it is. If one stays with his lyrics long enough, you see that he flips it back on the perpetrator of violence. Stan in the song of the same name was always portrayed as someone who desperately needs help and needs to start living in the real world, perhaps with counseling. Everyone focused on the lines that Stan has in that song and ignored what Em speaks in his own voice in reply. But then too, I don't think the painting The Rape of the Sabine Women advocates rape, nor do I think Guernica advocates war. The very depiction can be the protest and that has been very true of Eminem. I have been privy to some of the court filings on Michigan cases regarding Marshall Mathers and the one of the most conservative courts in our state awarded Marshall Mathers physical custody of his daughter. The reality to Em and his music is far more than the surface that has been used to trash him. And it has always been clear in all of his music that he adores his daughter. Oh well, don't need to rehash all that. The first proponent of Em on these boards was Michael Yarbrough, and then me, and both of us are gay and rather non violent and support feminism. Elton John stood with Joni and Em in recent past - might be his way of saying something. And I agree with Bobsart that I have been (more than) a little defensive here. Brian, I'll let you see the movie to see for yourself. The movie is based richly on Em's life and world. (Mom does come out as much better than she is in real life.) After I saw 8 Mile, I went to a local night spot and was in the dj booth for a while and a lot of folks were dropping in quoting lines from the movie. One of them was a woman who teaches 12 graders and she was pumping me for information about the movie because she wasn't able to see it Friday but she knew all her students already had! She knows Em's work quite well, as she said, "when all my students know something, I learn about it." Her big question: would it be ok to take her 10 year old nephew to. Now either she is the world's worst teacher and aunt, or she has seen behind the hype. And when I told her of the scene where Em's character makes a very major stand against bashing gays - and the word is he wanted that scene in the movie to address that issue - I was impressed that this teacher, not having seen the movie but knowing Em's work, was able to guess exactly what he said in that scene, and was pretty close to guessing how he did it. So for some of us at least, these things are very true to his music, and to him. very defensively, I guess, Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 09:11:02 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: JM v M&M > Vince wrote: > > > and I got to be thinking that Joni needs to spend a little more time in > > Detroit. I think she is too used to her clean white linens and needs to > > spend a little more time scrambling down in the street - Bobsart replied: > I think Joni has been there, done that, and does not need to get mugged. :-) > Maybe there are other places less dangerous that would help her get her > creative juices flowing again. Now there you go bashing Detroit! Being down on the street in Detroit does not equal danger or mugging! I think I am done with this issue since I am really failing to express what I am trying to say and I am very concerned that I am, as you have aptly pointed out, been defensive on all this. The inability to express a worthwhile idea is mine, and I claim my failure here, it is all mine, and I am going to shut up. Not because of anything you say, Bob, to be sure, but because I am feeling like Pauline Kael advocating a movie that she adored (and she could go on and on, although with far, far greater skills than I) while also feeling like the Grinch because I am underwhelmed by Travelogue I have heard thus far, and I need to, as they say, peace out. > Vince wrote: > > and that others will differ with me, that is way cool because the value of > > this community is the 800+ insights, not any one person's opinion. > > > Bob responds: > There you go - even if 797+ of them disagree with you ;-) > It would really scare me, and cause me to reconsider everything that I believe, if 797+ agreed with me! Vince "Ya gotta live it to feel it, If you didn't you wouldn't get it, We'll see what the big deal is, Why it wasn't, it still is." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 14:18:39 +0000 From: colin Subject: NJC No Wonder... ....we have such a problem with terrorism when you look at foreign policy by western countries. Just this last week domestic and international laws and the Geneve convention were disregarded when 5 people, unconvicted of anything, were executed in Yemen. It is no wonder we are hated and we can bluster and whine as much as we like about unfair it is all, how innocent we are and how unjustified these wicked people are in hating us. All the whining in the world won't make us right. - -- bw colin TANTRA LHASA APSO (reg 1982) colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 14:44:59 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: The art of misreading. NJC > You know a lot of people are probably skimming through the list at a very > rapid rate and are commenting on things that they think they read that were > never really written. I am sorry William for misreading what you wrote: Still, I agree that all pets should be altered, as should a large portion of our human population. Could you tell me how I should have read this? I feel terrible that I read words that were not there. I am sure you can understand how I, having misread this sentence, likened the thought to that of Nazi Germany(and other fascists etc). They too felt large portions of the population were worth less than the rest and should be neutered. They even killed off 6million 'worthless people'. And I can see now that you meant a 300lb gay black man with a 13" dick was supposed to be nice. Once again, please accept my apologies for misuderstanding. I could have read it as a well built str8 white man but I just didn't understand the code. (as an aside, the rapist in your prison scenario is much more likely to white and str8 tho perhaps not with a 13" dick.) I am sure you can see how easy it is for us to misread stuff, or even to read stuff that wasn't written. I wonder if there is a translation software available for this situation....? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:07:38 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Fwd: Re: NJC - What do Bush and Madonna have in common? >Yes, I'm afraid Oliver >> Stone in his brilliant work "JFK" hit the nail on the head. The >> assassination of Kennedy (spoiled, reckless, self-indulging fool that >> he was) marked a watershed regarding the political landscape of this >> nation. We slid, or were rather adeptly guided, into a unique, subtly >> instigated plutocracy, run by the shadow fascist, despotic, >> Industrialist Billionaire's club Mark commented regarding this observation of mine: >"I have been watching the mini-series 'I Claudius' with my friend Melanie on >dvd for the last two Saturdays. I think we've gotten about halfway through >the series. The series was adapted from a series of novels that were based >in historical fact. One of the main characters in this story about the >Caesars of Ancient Rome is the wife of the Emperor Octavian, a Machiavellian >lady by the name of Livia. Livia's goal is to make her son Tiberius the >successor to Octavian as Emperor." Great series... Human nature is a constant. All that people need to be evil is permission. Which begs the question about Osama. Who gave him permission? There are dozens of exposes (from legitimate sources) about the "Bush" connection to the bin Ladens. It is a deep, dark affair. Bush would be tried for treason, or at the very least "run out of Dodge" if people knew one tenth of how far his services in behalf of that family go. Does anyone know who was a major funder of G.Dub's first folly-laden (no pun intended) oil venture? If you guessed it, you're right (as opposed to "right" - lol). Ol' man Bush has been a lackey for the bin Laden interests from before the gulf war. BTW, this goes far deeper (once again - pun intended) than oil drilling rights. Once we no longer had the Vietnamese villagers to terrorize with our military gadgets and capabilities, we found ourselves with an arsenal of weaponry just sitting around collecting dust. The CIA was being "scrutinized" and the national anti-war sentiments would run high for almost two decades. The U.S.of A. generally has a 10-15 year curve on military hardware development. The Senate/House military appropriations were drying up. Hence, no multi-hundred billion dollar budgets to develop more outlandishly vicious "weapons of mass destruction". Along comes Bush 41 to the rescue. Do you realize that he (at the behest of his "handlers" pulled off the greatest military charade, the biggest single economic coup, in history - the gulf war? It was brilliant, quite frankly. Under the auspices of "toppling" Saddam we dumped 60 BILLION dollars worth of OBSOLETE military hardware on a barren desert - and got the Japanese, Saudi's, and Kuiatees, to pay for it to boot. All without "solving" the "problem" - Saddam. Hell, he'd actually been our faithful lackey for decades. WE funded his military machine - for oil of course. We watched as he attempted to dispatch those "terrible" Iranian fanatical Mullahs, with bio-weapons and waves of ignorant slave soldiers sent like lemmings to their deaths, for us! No, the issue of the gulf war was the "military industrial complex", (the most profitable cartel of enterprises in the history of mankind, with energy resource cartel and the pharmaceutical cartel bringing up the rear) and making sure it was solidly refinanced (six hundred dollar hammer, anyone?) Did you know that there is not a single retired General since 1986 who isn't worth at least $10,000,000!! They are rewarded for all of their patsy schmoozing with the cartel with lucrative positions, board of directorships galore, etc,.etc. Speaking of war and "international industrial cartels" (yes, these are international in nature - ever heard of the word Globalists?), when Dresden was bombed into sheer rubble (tiny pieces) the only complex left standing in the entire city was the TWENTY SQUARE research/manufacturing pharmaceutical complex of the infamous I.G.Farben company. Guess who owned(s) massive blocks of stocks in that. It is still the largest maker of "poison" pill concoctions on earth. Not one building of that complex was even damaged!! > >Mark states; "I wondered, while watching all of this, if >Christianity had had much success in making people more respectful >of the value of human life. Mark, it is FALSE Christianity that has wreaked havoc on humanity. True, apostolic Christianity has changed countless lives, one at a time, without coercion, force or duplicity. Yet so many worldlings say "I think I'll divorce God and the truth. Just give me the name and it's benefits. The U.S. is bathing in a "Christ-flavored paganism. A great writer once commented "All false religion ends in violence." Ellen White. And that includes false Christianity. By the way, her classic history of the Euro-centric rise of western domination in the name of Christ and "progress" "The Great Controversy" is one of the most fascinating, compelling books ever written. Good luck finding a copy. It was written in 1888 and reads as if it were written yesterday. They are around. She covers the "Catholic" plot and it's consequences - The debauched, vicious French Revolution, in stirring detail. The country's leaders renounced the existence of God, became Atheists and paraded a statue of the goddess of "knowledge" through the streets. By the way, they slaughtered tens of thousands of Protestants. Gibbon(the famed historian) stated that the "blood ran like water down the gutters of the streets". > >Mark stated "I've been thinking about these stories from the pages >of history in relation to some of the threads about oil and power >and wealth that have been going on lately on the list. I have to >wonder sometimes if what Franklin wrote in his post about the >leaders of this country and the powers behind them is true. Humans >have committed countless atrocities on other humans throughout >history for the sake of power and wealth." ... and self-serving political ideologies. >Mark asks: "Why should it be any different >now?" It isn't. >Mark: "Are we really any more civilized than the Romans were? Don't we still >have ruling classes? And why would they be any less cavalier about the >welfare of us 'little people' (remember Leona Helmsley?) than the Medici's >or the Julians were?" The U.S. is "modern Rome", masquerading as a "Christian" nation. "Love thy neighbor as thyself". "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." "If a man strikes you, turn the other cheek". Yeah, right > Mark - "think that Clinton probably was too. And I have no reason to doubt that the same is true about either one of the Bushes." Every President since Johnson has been a total "lackey frontman" for the international fascist Billionaire's club. All of them - political patsies. Who ordered Clinton to level the Murrah Building 30 DAYS after the Oklahoma bombings? (one of the President's main powers is as sole federal landlord on all federal government properties). Who made that call to him, demanding it be done IMMEDIATELY!! The regional FBI chief told the Prez that it would take at least a week to do. Clinton emphatically demanded that it be done THAT DAY (the day of the oval office order) and it was! The biggest crime scene in the history of the U.S. and it is demolished within thirty days. "Oh, it's just a terrible reminder of a horrible event we have to get behind us." Yeah, right. Even the infamous Bundy condo (O.J./Nicole) was an active crime scene for eighteen months - EIGHTEEN MONTHS!!! What evidence were the feds hiding? I direct you to the classic, political L.A. Cowboy song, "The Third Man" for some answers (found on his latest, unreleased CD, "Paganville" (already a pure classic, in my book - I got an advance, autographed pre-release!!! - boast, boast - A TREASURE). It can be reviewed at www.mp3.com/lacowboy. Just hit the buy now button, and it gives lo-fi ability to review every track without buying the CD. >Mark: "I don't mean to fan the >political flames but to be quite honest, I haven't known who to really trust >in the political arena for a long time." Only an ignorant fool would trust our "government" (historically citizens never have anyway). Fan away. Someone sure the hell has to. >Mark "And I do believe there are people >in this country and this world, for that matter, who have way more than they could ever know what to do with and who only seem to want more..." 1/2 percent of the population in this country controls 90+ PERCENT of the wealth, resources. But I digress. Back to what really matters - music. As for Steely Dan, they made an industry out of "obscure" lyricism and extraordinary musicianship. Ask Joni, their session players were/are some of the most accomplished players in the history of contemporary music. Just their guitarists, Jeff "skunk" Baxter(of Dubie Brother heritage) WOW! Unbelievable, the lead work of that guy generally leaves me speechless (imagine that!) And not forget Larry Carlton - divinely inspired taste incarnate!! These are just two. The horn players - only the creme of the scene. The anal-retentive productions (slaved over for months and months - possibly partially due to extensive drug imbibing - but hey, it worked anyway)! FAMOUS ground-breaking production techniques and caliber, raised the musical production bar in many ways. BTW - Robbin Ford is a world-class string bender in the above caliber. Kudos to Joni for so single-handedly launching his career into the national guitar "god" arena, and his subsequent marvelous legacy of world-class guitar albums. NP "The Prayin' Tree" (on Paganville) L.A. Cowboy. No wonder I'm so politically peeved and ornery, at the moment. It is about subjugation in the name of "cultural religion" throughout time. Woke up to "Blue", still my all time sentimental favorite of Joni's, and easily one of the top ten CDs of all contemporary music time, so at least I had a beautiful, peaceful awakening. Unlike this other "awakening". CS (can't stand). Hip hop (all), Rap music (an oxymoron if ever there was one), slinky, shallow, "girl" acts, with no brains and no clothes. Young male "troubadours" who take three, generally out-of-tune "filler" chords, a couple of idiotic hook lines (generally meant soley to make teenage girls get a little wet), totally idea-free lyrical "filler" sandwiched in between, and ram it down mindless throats as they do the "morning/evening drive - until they find themselves humming (or even, my God, singing the contentless, repulsively repetitive "hook" lines over and over .YIKES! Shame on the corrupt, disgusting, frankly despicable major music label industry and it's myriad of lesser label "imprint" misfits, and it's most compromised monkeys - their retarded, payola-pocketing lackeys - the radio stations and their corporate conglomerates. I can hear the cash registers taking the parent's money from the teenies even now - ka-ching. But the well is drying up, and they've dug they're own shallow, mucky grave. Hope they all end up broke and working at the same type of business they're so accustomed to - fast (nutritionless) food joints, only for the body INSTEAD of the soul and mind. No wonder this country is in so much deep s...t! luvs, Franklin "Ritual, tradition and pageantry have never set a sinner free. When the truth is suppressed than an artist must cry. You can steal a soul with a smile and a lie." ("The Brilliant Failure", long version. Hidden track at the end of outstanding CD by same name by L.A. Cowboy) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #474 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)