From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #451 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, October 31 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 451 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni on politics NJC ["kakki" ] Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC ["Brenda" ] njc - everything is political . . . everything is political . . . everything is political . . . everything is political . . . [] [none], njc ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] thank you's and N.O. birthday report... [Christoffer Gudi Sommer-Gleerup ] I got plently of nothin' / politics NJC ["Erica Trudelle" ] Blue Tapestry Live CD [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Rachel Z - "Moon At The Window" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: njc - everything is political . . . everything is political . .. everything is political . . . everything is political . . . [] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #450 - NJC Cheese & Crackers [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Judy Collins NJC ["William Chavez" ] Re: Judy Collins NJC [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: Judy Collins ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #450 - NJC Cheese & Crackers ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Judy Collins NJC ["Blair Fraipont" ] Re: Rich Republicans, and Democrats ["kakki" ] Re: made in the USA...globalism NJC ["Brenda" ] Re: sorry ["kakki" ] HappY Birthday - Christina the Bold !!!! (NJC) [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC ["kakki" ] Re: Judy Collins NJC ["William Chavez" ] RE: Rich Republicans, and Democrats (NJC) ["Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC Colin, My remarks did not stem from thinking you were attacking me. I have no problem with anything you've written about the subject. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:12:25 -0800 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC > > What do you mean by this? Frankly, I think the information > > revolution has really only just begun. How many people here owned a > > personal computer 20 years ago - 1982? > > But don't you think we're seeing a very real leveling out in the PC > industry? The majority of us who are going to want to own one do, and > while we may have bought into upgrading every 2 years or so, when the > improvements were so monumental (anybody try to work on a 386 > lately?), now the improvements have become so slight that those sales > are not what they were a couple of years ago. True, many people do not > own a PC, but do they even want to? > PC's are only one part of one stage of the information economy. In fact, to me, PC's are like those early autos that used to get flats at the drop of a hat. I think we have barely realized where we will go from the place that started with PC's. I highly recommend MIT's "Technology Review" for learning more about technology that is here today and what is on the near horizon. > > Why? What is this need based on? > > Well, I can't point you to any articles on the web. ;~) It's nothing > more than a gut feeling that I get driving around this country that > gives the perception that LOTS of areas haven't changed as much as we > would like to think they have. Are you familiar with the "Pluggers" > comic strip? It's sort of based on this concept (and if you look, MANY > of the submittals come from SC). > Oh, yeah, I'm familiar with Pluggers. BTW - my family is from South Carolina - Barnwell, Williston, Aiken. B n.p.: "Water No Get Enemy" from Red, Hot & Riot - -------------------------------------------- "Radio has no future" - Lord Kelvin, 1897 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:19:10 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC that is good to know! kakki wrote: > Colin, > > My remarks did not stem from thinking you were attacking me. I have no > problem with anything you've written about the subject. > > Kakki - -- bw colin TANTRA LHASA APSO (reg 1982) colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:23:58 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: njc - everything is political . . . everything is political . . . everything is political . . . everything is political . . . Ai-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi! Golly, my little blue head is spinning! I had thought that the everything-is-political concept was just a foolish semantics thing, but boy was I wrong. Thanks to Ric for explaining this idea to me. Kudos also to Hell, Yael, Colin and everyone else (MULLER, EVEN!) who has made this the only JMDL political thread I have ever enjoyed and the only one I can remember learning anything from. For the record, I didn't have either the summer squash or the zucchini last night. I had beans . . . now THAT'S political! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:50:51 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: [none], njc Will, they make 'em with motors now...... Lama (recalling that we once had major arguments over overtly short posts!) Will said, >What a way to start off an alnum. I' may have to pull out this LP and crank >up my turntable. >Will Bob said, >>NP: Laura, "You Don't Love Me When I Cry" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:18:11 +0100 From: Christoffer Gudi Sommer-Gleerup Subject: thank you's and N.O. birthday report... Hey eberybody, Sitting at the library the morning after, I have a terribly heavy head, but I'll try and put some kind of report together anyway. First, thank you all so much for the nice birthday wishes...it was great to hear from so many of you - reminds me that I have a lot of friends overhere. Here's a little about what happened on my big day... At 7pm Jack and I arrive at Michael's house in a limo (oh yes, I'm serious!) and I'm greated with four pairs of open arms. Feeling very much at home, I'm furnished with a drink (naturally) after Michael has come back with tequila supplies. Surprisingly, I don't smell any food being made but soon find out that Michael is grilling fish on the terrasse. Wow, what a delicious meal - you all ought to be jealous of the way I'm spoiled here! Arriving at the big surprise that Jack has for me, blowing out all 26 candles of the yummy birthday cake shows that I have no boyfriends...(in Denmark we say that every candle you leave burning is a boyfriend or a girlfriend). At least my wish will come true...yay! The night goes on, we're jamming in the studio, it's great and I'm reassured that these people have become my second family (Michael keeps saying "Who's your daddy"?). Last night was wonderful and so is my stay here. Michael's taking me to Baton Rouge this afternoon which I can't wait to see. We'll soon meet up with different songwriters that might have some songs for me. It's all very exciting and everyday is like a dream for me... Christina ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:05:15 -0500 From: "Erica Trudelle" Subject: I got plently of nothin' / politics NJC The way I see it, in the world of business/politics (cause aren't they just the same thing anyway): Money and greed are faceless and loyal to no one, rich is rich call it a rich democrat, call it a rich republican what ever, they all have big fences around their homes so nothing will get taken, Greed does nasty things. It's CHEAPER to produce goods somewhere other than the USA, it's CHEAPER to have a migrant workers pick your fruit, the bottom line is the all mighty dollar. I do my best to stay educated and conscious of my actions and most of the time I can live with my decisions. The world is getting smaller and tolerance is vital to a peaceful exisitance. I'm getting tired of the "us and them" mentality of business and politics, it archaic, dangerous and quite a road block in creating positive change. I'm just rambling...kind of feels good, I'm going on 3 hours of solid sleep, my daugter has 4 molars coming in at once!!!!!!! peace out, Erica _________________________________________________________________ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:36:13 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: the personal is political etc NJC I wish everyone on the list could write as with as much clarity, intelligence and humanity as Colin does. Thanks for caring and thanks for sharing your thoughts. mike in barcelona. NP Mingus - Mingus Dynasty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:53:37 EST From: Kardinel@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #450 I like her a lot too and I think she is an enduring singer. She is very different than Joni Mitchell in her style but both have a grace and dignity lack ing in so many of the women singers today. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:04:35 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC Ricw1217@aol.com wrote: > > on and on and on. i think that is what colin meant. and debra. (if i > may be so bold.) Yes, Ric, that is what I had in mind. Thanks very much for giving such clear examples. And as Yael mentioned in another message, even if there's not a conscious political motive behind our actions, there are always political consequences. It's hard to see them and especially hard to take responsibility for them when looking at just one person's actions. An one example, it's not one steak dinner that's a problem (although some people would say it is healthwise), but when millions of people are eating beef and don't want to pay much for it, then the result is that cattle in the U.S. are raised as cheaply as possible, which means inefficiently, even though one of the consequences of that is depleting the water table under the Midwest, a resource that can never be replaced. (How can that be explained to people 200 years from now?) It's also hard to see the connection between one's actions and the political consequences since the issues are so complex that it's not always possible to know what horror an action is "supporting". It's no longer just the cheap clothes that are made in sweatshops. When I think of "political" I think of it as the community as a whole and how I relate to it, not just a political party, and my actions (steak for dinner every night?) reflect that. When it comes to voting, my hope is always that the political party I choose to vote for will extend to the community (the country, the world, the future) the values I consider important. But it never works so neatly. The compromises of politics and the majority rule on every issue take over and the results are never as clear as the ideals are. It's still better I think to start from those ideals and go from there... There are so many messages I'd like to respond to, but just don't have the time today. One last thing... guilt? I don't know that anyone's aiming to produce that. Awareness, though, is something to aim for I think. What one does with that... well, there's a thousand possibilities for that one. That's where politics is very personal. Gotta go, (and I'm hoping this rushed message makes sense), oops, really gotta go, Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:30:12 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Blue Tapestry Live CD Looks like the UK Joni/Carole tribute band "Blue Tapestry" has recorded a cd taken from their live shows: http://www.bluetapestry.co.uk/ I'll be picking up a copy, and will report back when I spin it. If any of you Brits have it yet, speak up! Looks like their doing some cool covers! Bob NP: Ryan Adams, "Lovesick Blues" 11/15/01 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:19:23 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Rachel Z - "Moon At The Window" Holy Cow! The Joni tributes are falling out of the sky faster than you can say "Murphy is a cover-lover!" :~) Just released this month is a CD by Rachel Z, a Manhattan jazz pianist, titled "Moon At The Window". True to its title, it's a full tribute to Joni! Here's the lineup for THIS one: 1. Big Yellow Taxi (Mitchell) - 4:25 2. Carey (Mitchell) - 5:47 3. Ladies Man (Mitchell) - 5:06 4. Chinese Cafe (Mitchell) - 7:23 5. Free Man in Paris (Mitchell) - 5:30 6. From Both Sides Now (Mitchell) - 5:10 7. Moon at the Window (Mitchell) - 6:39 8. Help Me (Mitchell) - 4:10 9. River (Mitchell) - 4:53 10. Circle Game (Mitchell) - 5:15 11. All I Want (Mitchell) - 5:11 12. Lakota (Klein/Mitchell) - 10:04 WOW! A ten-minute jazz version of Lakota - how cool is that? Well, I'm going to find out as soon as CD Universe delivers my copy! I suppose Reprise will be issuing "A Case of Joni" any day now! ;~) Bob NP: Ryan Adams, "My Winding Wheel" 11.15.01 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:42:53 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: njc - everything is political . . . everything is political . .. everything is political . . . everything is political . . . > I had beans . . . now THAT'S political! well that depends on where your air freshener was made and by whom.... bw colin TANTRA LHASA APSO (reg 1982) colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:00:47 -0500 From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #450 - NJC Cheese & Crackers > Any takers for "The Fifth Album"? or the "Recollections" compilation of > the early troubadour material? That's how I like her the > best.However cheesy "Hard Times For Lovers" has a place in my heart HTFL was kinda cheesy (but included the fantastic "I Remember Sky," right?), but Judy did some fine work during that period (late 70s-early 80s). I think Running for My Life was a beautiful album and is unfortunately not available on CD. I think, however, that Judys' best post-60s work is the largely ignored Judy Sings Dylan: Just Like a Woman, from 1993. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:52:55 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC In a message dated 30/10/2002 15:38:51 GMT Standard Time, Brenda writes: << I know there are people who would vehemently disagree with me, but I think "Made In The USA" is a relic for a time that has long past. We Americans greatly benefit from the global economy that is largely our making. We shouldn't have a problem with buying goods that were made somewhere else because by doing so, we are playing our role in this system we've created (by proxy through our government, the companies we support when we buy their stock, etc.). >> Americans (and Brits for that matter) may be benefiting from globalisation of this type (eg cheaper clothes); however, you/we are also losing out big time: when company CEOs decide to relocate to Malaysia or Thailand (in order that the company can make even bigger profits so the bosses can afford a bigger house in the Hamptons/Totteridge and Whetstone), factories close down; a large percentage of a town's employment can be tied up (directly or indirectly) in one big employer - it's like pulling the plug on a community. For a while it looked as if the newer sectors would take up some of the slack: if the widget factory closes down, retrain, get IT literate, or work in a call centre maybe (not great work, but can be reasonably well paid, not too demanding physically, better than nothing). Sadly, this is a forlorn hope, as even these types of jobs are being farmed out to the third world (for UK, it tends to be India), where workers get paid far less than they would have to here, cutting the companies' costs in a big way. As someone else (Colin I think) has already pointed out, the consumers don't see any benefit from this, and the inhabitants of this notional town *certainly* don't. The workers in India may well benefit in the short term, but there's zilch job security, as the bosses will up sticks at a moment's notice if they find somewhere they can set up the help desks and call centres even more cheaply. One other thing: "Made In America" may be a legend that's fading, but it still has a strong symbolic clout. Certainly one of the mega clothing manufactureres thought it was important enough to hatch an extraordinary scam to mislead people into thinking that their products were indeed made in the USA. I don't remember the details, but it was reported in the Observer here, and I think Naomi Klein also mentions it in No Logo. It went something like this: The company (let's call them Nidigap) bought an island somewhere in the Pacific Ocean, built a factory on it and imported loads of drone workers from the Far East to do the usual intensive/sweatshop thang. To all intents and purposes, the factory may as well have been on the outskirts of Manila. But Nidigap were able to put "Made in the USA" on the labels because they had bought the island, and, like, they're American, so, well, that's alright then. I apologise for being so hazy on the specifics, but the bare bones of this are true, even though it looks like something you'd read about in The Onion. There are plenty of people who believe globalisation is good for everyone. I don't buy it (so to speak). Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:54:39 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: Judy Collins NJC >Any takers for "The Fifth Album"? or the "Recollections" compilation of >the early troubadour material? That's how I like her the best.However >cheesy "Hard Times For Lovers" has a place in my heart.- I think the fifth album by Judy and the Judy Collins concert(her forth album) are incredible. I also love "Maids of Constant Sorrow" , "Golden Apples of the Sun" and "#3". Who needs "Recollections" if you're a big Judy fan and you have everything form the "fifth album" and prior. It is a very nice little greatest hits package though. I know all these early songs by heart. great songs to sing while working in the yard. Small story: Soon after Judy's son committed suicide she performed the most emotional concert tour I have ever been to(I have seen over 200 different people in concert from classical, jazz, folk, rock,etc...).I have seen many performers from the singer/songwriter era (which tend to aim a lot for the emotional buttons within people through their music). Nothing has ever compared!!!She performed so many sad song and hopeful song, and most of her own composition. 2 Mitchell song, 2 Cohen's songs(Song for Bernadette-WOW) etc.. She did away with a lot of the stuff she typically sings that I don't think she does a good job with anyways(City of New Orleans, Desperado). These are good songs but other people do them better. Anyways, just before the encore I went up and gave her some flowers and asked her to sing "Winter Sky" (a Billy Ed Wheeler song she did in the early 60's). She came back out and told the audience that I had asked her to do a song that she loved but had forgotten about for many years. I guess she just felt the song was appropriate for her current emotional state and so she sang it acapella and then went right into Amazing Grace. The people in this concert where very teary eyed and some people were just on the verge of sobbing. I had never seen anything like it. I ran into Judy several years later at a book signing and waited last to speak with her. I asked her about that night and she remembered being asked to sing the song and said "you were the guy who brought me the flowers?!?"(I hadn't even mentioned the flowers). She stated she really felt something cooking inside of her that night . It all came out. The big purge! I'm a softy but I don't let on to that, and my eyes were pretty watery. My friend and eye discuss this concert all the time. I went with the lady who had introduced me to Judy a couple of decades earlier. It made it so much more significant. Will _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:13:17 -0500 From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: Judy Collins NJC In a message dated 10/30/2002 6:54:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, willchavez@hotmail.com writes: > Small story: > Soon after Judy's son committed suicide she performed the most emotional > concert tour I have ever been to(I have seen over 200 different people in > concert from classical, jazz, folk, rock,etc...).I have seen many performers > from the singer/songwriter era (which tend to aim a lot for the emotional > buttons within people through their music). > Nothing has ever compared!!!She performed so many sad song and hopeful song, > and most of her own composition. 2 Mitchell song, 2 Cohen's songs(Song for > Bernadette-WOW) etc.. She did away with a lot of the stuff she typically > sings that I don't think she does a good job with anyways(City of New > Orleans, Desperado). These are good songs but other people do them better. > Anyways, just before the encore I went up and gave her some flowers and > asked her to sing "Winter Sky" (a Billy Ed Wheeler song she did in the early > 60's). She came back out and told the audience that I had asked her to do a > song that she loved but had forgotten about for many years. > I guess she just felt the song was appropriate for her current emotional > state and so she sang it acapella and then went right into Amazing Grace. > The people in this concert where very teary eyed and some people were just > on the verge of sobbing. I had never seen anything like it. I ran into Judy > several years later at a book signing and waited last to speak with her. I > asked her about that night and she remembered being asked to sing the song > and said "you were the guy who brought me the flowers?!?"(I hadn't even > mentioned the flowers). She stated she really felt something cooking inside > of her that night . It all came out. The big purge! I'm a softy but I don't > let on to that, and my eyes were pretty watery. My friend and eye discuss > this concert all the time. I went with the lady who had introduced me to > Judy a couple of decades earlier. It made it so much more significant. > Will > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > _____ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 I've heard so many things about Judy being vicious,and nasty,It's nice to hear that Judy has a warm,human side to her... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:35:49 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: Judy Collins Christopher wrote: > Any takers for "The Fifth Album"? or the "Recollections" compilation of > the early troubadour material? That's how I like her the best. A little bit too on the folksy side for me to be that enamored with either but enjoy them from time to time. However > cheesy "Hard Times For Lovers" has a place in my heart. What is your definition of cheesy? Surely not the same as mine as I find this album beautiful and by far my favorite by Judy thus far, although I only have 6 to date. Mack. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:41:42 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #450 - NJC Cheese & Crackers Bryan wrote: (but included the fantastic "I Remember Sky," right?) indeed. what a tune. Judy has the ability to evoke emotion that few can match. 'I Remember Sky" is one of those tunes as is 'Secret Gardens' on the equally poignant album 'True Stories." Mack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:46:19 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: njc - everything is political . . . everything is political . . . everything is political . . . everything is political . . . --- Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > Ai-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi! > > Golly, my little blue head is spinning! > > I had thought that the everything-is-political > concept was just a foolish > semantics thing, but boy was I wrong. > See what happens when you start talking about vegetables? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:46:21 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: njc - everything is political . . . everything is political . . . everything is political . . . everything is political . . . Murphy wrote: > For the record, I didn't have either the summer squash or the zucchini last > night. I had beans . . . now THAT'S political! I never understood the concept before (or heard of it before the list), either, but I am glad to have hear peoples' perspectives. Of course, discussions like these always spur my curiousity and research bent, lol, so today I looked into the situation with migrant workers in the U.S. Although it is a job that the average American would not want to do, the situation is not as entirely exploitive as it may have been 30-50 years ago. The Federal government oversees migrant labor generally to ensure compliance with the laws and to work toward equity in wages and conditions among the states. The workers in California and some other western states make anywhere from $6.75 - $9.00 an hour while back east the range is a bit lower but starts at the Federal minimum wage of $5.15 an hour. The Feds and states also offer medical and housing assistance, plus job training for other more skilled work. So enjoy your American grown zucchini and squash a little ;-) Kakki NP: Joni - Love ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:48:12 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: eat the rich NJC Thanks Brenda! > The median income of members of the Republican party is a little over $36,000. > > That certainly isn't rich. As a median that is a bit low, in fact! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:52:01 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: Judy Collins NJC Will, What an amazing story. I am not that big of a fan of hers and I now want to go out and get some of her material. I suppose a concert experience like that only happens once or twice a lifetime. And to top that, she remembered you at the book signing and her comment prove it wasn't just any ordinary night for her! Thanks for sharing. Blair NP:The Fall of the WOrld's Own Optimist, AimeeMann I had never seen anything like it. I ran into Judy > > several years later at a book signing and waited last to speak with her. >I > > asked her about that night and she remembered being asked to sing the >song > > and said "you were the guy who brought me the flowers?!?"(I hadn't even > > mentioned the flowers). She stated she really felt something cooking >inside > > of her that night . It all came out. The big purge! I'm a softy but I >don't > > let on to that, and my eyes were pretty watery. My friend and eye >discuss > > this concert all the time. I went with the lady who had introduced me to > > Judy a couple of decades earlier. It made it so much more significant. > > Will > > _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:00:30 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Rich Republicans, and Democrats Hi Mary, > Well, for starters, I'd get the list of the CEO's, Board of Directors, and top executive staff of the Fortune 500--and >then go down from there. Can anyone who reads the Wall Street Journal regularly (I have, and do) and listened to >Friday night's "Wall Street Week in Review," with the WSJ's editorial board, really believe that the top--and >richest-- business leaders in this country are *Democrats*?? I sure don't. You can download the Forbes 400 at their web site. My point is that the list of the very richest, mega billionaires, not country club millionaires, has been comprised of mostly Democrats for a number of years now. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Summer Redstone and so on. I just think the myth that all or most of the rich are Republicans went out of date (or should have) many decades ago. I have a sense that the perception may differ based on geography. Certainly the mega billionaires and millionaires out here in the west are mostly Dems. Virtually all of the media, film, music and high tech big business moguls out here in the west are Dems. Maybe in the mid-west and the east it is different. I don't know about the Wal-Mart family's political affiliation, for example. Nonetheless, these are the people that have been at the top of the money list for a number of years now. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:10:00 -0800 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: made in the USA...globalism NJC On 30 Oct 2002 at 18:52, AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > > Americans (and Brits for that matter) may be benefiting from > globalisation of this type (eg cheaper clothes); however, you/we are > also losing out big time: when company CEOs decide to relocate to > Malaysia or Thailand (in order that the company can make even bigger > profits so the bosses can afford a bigger house in the > Hamptons/Totteridge and Whetstone), There are also a lot of stock holders who benefit when that happens - not just the CEO's. In the U.S. almost 50% of American households hold some kind of equities. (I still find it funny that very few people here cared about CEO behavior or compensation when the market was soaring.) > > > One other thing: "Made In America" may be a legend that's fading, but > it still has a strong symbolic clout. Certainly one of the mega > clothing manufactureres thought it was important enough to hatch an > extraordinary scam to mislead people into thinking that their products > were indeed made in the USA. I don't remember the details, but it was > reported in the Observer here, and I think Naomi Klein also mentions > it in No Logo. It went something like this: > > The company (let's call them Nidigap) bought an island somewhere in > the Pacific Ocean, built a factory on it and imported loads of drone > workers from the Far East to do the usual intensive/sweatshop thang. > To all intents and purposes, the factory may as well have been on the > outskirts of Manila. But Nidigap were able to put "Made in the USA" > on the labels because they had bought the island, and, like, they're > American, so, well, that's alright then. > > I apologise for being so hazy on the specifics, but the bare bones of > this are true, even though it looks like something you'd read about in > The Onion. Are you talking about the Saipan thing with Tommy Hilfiger and the Gap? Stanley, Honda and Rand are among many others that have falsely made the "Made in USA" claim. http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/9901/musasweep6.htm I'm not saying that the label has no value; I just don't think it should carry as much weight in this new world we live in. According to the FCC, you can only make that claim if "all or virtually all" of the product was indeed made in the U.S.A. When you consider the imported goods that are used in products that are made here, it rules out quite a lot (including components of the U.S. military defense system). So in pursuit of "made in the U.S.A.," do we turn our backs on our import partners and return to isolationism? According to news sources referenced by the FCC, Americans became more sensitive to "made in USA" claims and were more interested in buying American- made goods. http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/alerts/usabalrt.htm My own personal thinking actually went in the opposite direction, away from insularity. > > There are plenty of people who believe globalisation is good for > everyone. I don't buy it (so to speak). > Industrialization wasn't good for everyone. Nor was the agrarian age. I don't believe globalisation is either. I just think we have to face the fact that we are in it and I don't see how we can turn back. Brenda n.p.: Buffy on FX (Did I just write that?! We all have to have our guilty pleasures. ) - -------------------------------------------- "Radio has no future" - Lord Kelvin, 1897 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:08:47 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: sorry Sorry Joni-onlies - I didn't realize my post was not marked njc. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:32:55 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: HappY Birthday - Christina the Bold !!!! (NJC) Christina writes: << Well, maybe us "danishes" are actually true killer machines...think about that Bob! >> Think about it? Think about it? Ha! How could anyone with a last name like mine ever forget the Danish and Norwegian Vikings and how they raped and pillaged poor Ireland -- my sweet aboriginal motherland! -- in a hundred-plus-year reign of horrific blue-eyed blondness beginning around the end of 795 AD! Because of this I probably have some of your wretched Scandinavian blood running through my veins, which is probably the reason I can't sit in the sun for more than a half-hour at a time! Think about it? I shall never forget! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:38:14 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC Brenda and Bob, You know and I know my remarks wishing we could all bring it back to the U.S. comes from a total dream world and sometimes sense of exasperation about the geo-politico-globalo rhectoric. In reality, I know that it has been a new world for a long time now. I also believe that there are also benefits in expanding the trade and production globally. Certainly we are not the only country who has done so. But then as I thought about it today, I kind of liked Bob's feelings that we would bring a little back to the U.S. Why not? We have the ingenuity maybe to figure out how to do it on some scale. So the personal/political thread made me also wonder where the clothes I buy are made. Surprisingly, (although I never checked while buying) they are mostly from the U.S. or countries in western europe. (Maybe because I buy designer label at 80% off? ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:53:56 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Rachel Z - "Moon At The Window" - njc The Covers King writes: << The Joni tributes are falling out of the sky faster than you can say "Murphy is a cover-lover!" >> Truth be told, Bob, I don't really care for Joni Mitchell's music. Like many JMDLers, I'm just here for the Dating Service and the lively political debates! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:14:54 -0800 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC On 30 Oct 2002 at 18:38, kakki wrote: > Brenda and Bob, > > You know and I know my remarks wishing we could all bring it back to > the U.S. comes from a total dream world and sometimes sense of > exasperation about the geo-politico-globalo rhectoric. In reality, I > know that it has been a new world for a long time now. I also believe > that there are also benefits in expanding the trade and production > globally. Certainly we are not the only country who has done so. But > then as I thought about it today, I kind of liked Bob's feelings that > we would bring a little back to the U.S. Why not? We have the > ingenuity maybe to figure out how to do it on some scale. > I understand what you meant. The reality is that we live with bits of each age. I buy most of my produce at farmer's markets (six out of seven days there's one taking place within five miles of my home) with money I made building web sites and I get there in my Japanese car that was built in Canada. (Or my '75 RD 200, which is certainly more fun! : ) B ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:27:39 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: Re: Judy Collins NJC I've heard of the nasty side you speak of. It almost seems you have to be somewhat of a bitch if you are going to be taken seriously as a woman. I've learned to just disregard this in women like Judy, Joan Baez, Jennifer Warnes and Linda Ronstadt. Those women that tend to be interpretive singers may be a little worse because they don't carry the extra weight or clout of being seen as a composer even though most of these women write as well. Most of these women hide their "soft white under belly" because they have suffered every single time they have exposed it. It's amazing that they can even let their guard down long enough to make more emotional music then men. This is one reason why I appreciate women singers even more than men. As Janis would say "Just like a turtle, hiding underneath its horny shell." Will >I've heard so many things about Judy being vicious,and nasty,It's nice >to >hear that Judy has a warm,human side to her... _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:42:27 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: Re: Judy Collins NJC I think that whole tour was a real purging experience for her because not only did her son commit suicide but he was on of those sons that you continuously had to be on top of, trying to keep him well directed. The fact that I gave her flowers and asked her to sing a song she hadn't sung in twenty years is what probably will keep that night in her mind for awhile. I know it will be in mind forever. I asked her to sing it because I loved it, I think she decided to sing it because it was pertinent. She made it sound pertinent. The song ends with "And I feel like something is being born, tells my soul not to mourn.", That book singing she had a couple of years later was a book that largely dealt with her sons death. Not only did she do a remarkable job of discussing the important sections of the book and her pain but she would pause throughout the whole thing to sing snippets of songs that were pertinent to the pain. This woman is not afraid to open her mouth and sing with out even someone humming in the background. Her voice alone fills in all the spaces. She is nearly sixty!! Will >From: "Blair Fraipont" >To: Relayer211@aol.com, willchavez@hotmail.com, joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Judy Collins NJC >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:52:01 -0500 > > Will, >What an amazing story. I am not that big of a fan of hers and I now want to >go out and get some of her material. I suppose a concert experience like >that only happens once or twice a lifetime. And to top that, she remembered >you at the book signing and her comment prove it wasn't just any ordinary >night for her! > Thanks for sharing. > Blair >NP:The Fall of the WOrld's Own Optimist, AimeeMann > > > > >I had never seen anything like it. I ran into Judy >> > several years later at a book signing and waited last to speak with >>her. I >> > asked her about that night and she remembered being asked to sing the >>song >> > and said "you were the guy who brought me the flowers?!?"(I hadn't even >> > mentioned the flowers). She stated she really felt something cooking >>inside >> > of her that night . It all came out. The big purge! I'm a softy but I >>don't >> > let on to that, and my eyes were pretty watery. My friend and eye >>discuss >> > this concert all the time. I went with the lady who had introduced me >>to >> > Judy a couple of decades earlier. It made it so much more significant. >> > Will >> > > _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:08:19 -0600 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: RE: Rich Republicans, and Democrats (NJC) Kakki wrote: "You can download the Forbes 400 at their web site. My point is that the list of the very richest, mega billionaires, not country club millionaires, has been comprised of mostly Democrats for a number of years now. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Summer Redstone and so on. I just think the myth that all or most of the rich are Republicans went out of date (or should have) many decades ago. I have a sense that the perception may differ based on geography. Certainly the mega billionaires and millionaires out here in the west are mostly Dems. Virtually all of the media, film, music and high tech big business moguls out here in the west are Dems. Maybe in the mid-west and the east it is different." Perhaps geography does have something to do with perception. I certainly see exponentially more wealthy Republicans than Democrats where I live in the Midwest. Nevertheless, my point remains the same. I'm less interested in the Forbes 400 than the Fortune 500; in the Democrat "super-billionaires" in the L.A.-based entertainment industry than the far greater number of Republican "country club millionaires" scattered throughout the nation. And if we looked at the compensation packages, benefits, "golden handcuff" packages, etc., of CEOs and other top executives, I don't doubt that quite a few Republican super-billionaires, or at least, extremely rich millionaires, would tumble out. I realize that not all Republicans are wealthy. Several in my family wouldn't make the cut if that were the criterion. As Brenda astutely pointed out, businesses today attempt to curry political favor with both parties: look at the well-documented dealings of Enron, before it fell flat on its face as a result of its misdeeds. And there are certainly reasons other than financial ones for allignment with the Republican Party, as religious conservatives, some libertarians, and others will attest to. But overall, the Republicans have been, and are still, the party of business and of wealth. One need look no farther than its platform and favorite issues to see this, again and again and again. Mary P. P.S. Sorry for forgetting the NJC tag earlier. That was originally my mistake, not Kakki's. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #451 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)