From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #450 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, October 30 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 450 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni on politics NJC ["kakki" ] Today in History: October 30 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: Subject: eat the rich NJC ["Jerry Schirmer" ] Joni and Joan [Gordon Mackie ] Re: Joni on politics NJC [colin ] Re: Joni on politics NJC ["kakki" ] Dorothy Fields Forever! (njc) ["Paul Castle" ] njc Political differences? Pah! njc (long) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Joni on politics NJC [colin ] Re: Joni on politics NJC ["kakki" ] Re: Joni on politics NJC [colin ] Re: Joni on politics NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] [none] ["William Chavez" ] [none] ["William Chavez" ] Re: Judy - njc [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Joni on politics NJC [colin ] RE: Joni on... ["Heather" ] RE: Joni on politics NJC ["Heather" ] political consumerism, NJC [Emily Gray Tedrowe ] Re: eat the rich NJC ["Brenda" ] Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC ["Brenda" ] Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: The Personal is political [] Re: Subject: eat the rich/politcal contributions NJC ["Brenda" ] Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC ["Brenda" ] Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:28:37 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC Kasey wrote: > I don't believe everything is political, however I will > concede that all actions could have political ramifications. I do get that. > It's all in the eye of the beholder. I don't believe if I buy > jeans that I openly support child labor. Nor do I believe > not buying them will stop child labor. The choice to buy > or not buy for me is price. Sometimes I get so sick of all the "imperialist" rhetoric and steady drip of guilt trips that I sincerely wish everyone would go back to buying only goods made in the U.S. even if it costs 100 times as much. I remember a time when stuff did cost a lot. You couldn't afford to buy a big closet of cheap clothes and get a new TV or stereo every couple of years or every new gadget instantly like we do now. I lived like that once and I would do it again gladly just to stop hearing this **** used as a weapon against us. Raising the price of food gets a bit trickier. People can do without new clothes and gadgets, but they can't live without food. Obviously people with families and lower incomes would be severely hurt by major price increases or price controls on food. Can't get around that one. > I for one had my first job at 11, and it was picking peaches, and apples for ten cents a peck. > I hate peaches to this day. But I liked the small amount of > money I got at the end of the week. I've also worked stocking > shelves at the local stop and shop. I've never been ashamed of > any honest work I've done, and I've never refused honest work > when I needed a pay check. For a while I worked one full time job > and two part time jobs. I have also had an almost identical work experience and know what it is to be poor. > If I support a democrat because I like his views am I a democrat? What if I vote > for a democrat for one thing and a republican for another? I've done that a number of times. Maybe we are just "impure" political sluts, Kasey - haha ;-) > I believe the majority of Americans are smart enough to look beyond patriotism > and see the facts, as they perceive them to be. That's true and something to remember amidst the rhetoric. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 03:14:27 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: October 30 1998: Joni performed in Kanata. More info: http://www.jmdl.com/performances/docs/981030.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/RoadAgainKanata1098.html - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 02:43:30 -0600 From: "Jerry Schirmer" Subject: Re: Subject: eat the rich NJC kakki wrote: > >Yikes - The richest people in America according to the yearly lists >that I >read in Forbes and Vanity Fair are overwhelmingly Democrats. >99% of all >ofthe media and business and entertainment moguls and >artists listed are. >So where do I find the list of the rich >Republicans? Are the far richer >Democrats exempt from blame because of >their political party? Or are they >exempt as long as they give money >to the Democrat party? > >Kakki Business execs democrats? Big business PACs invariably give the lions share of their campaign contributions and support to the Republicans... there are some execptions, particularly in media, but business overall is definitely very pro-republican. A good point is made about more democratic politicans being richer as individuals than republicans, but it has to also be considered that the republicans raise a lot more money than the democrats do, so to get elec ted, democratic politicans often are forced to rely upon their own personal fortunes... Regardless, any political party whose cornerstone economic policy is to cut the tax burden of the upper tax bracket, that rages against the estate tax (only 2% of esttes left behind are eligible for the estate tax) above all other economic policies, and that fights against any and all social spending, no matter how modest the budget for the proposals are... well, that party certainly SEEMS to be catering to the rich... Not to say that your Clinton style Democrats could hardly be labeled as Populist, or pro-middle/low class, but one would have to admit that the Republican party certainly champions the above values more strongly than the Democratic party does... - --Jerry Schirmer "We are on a perilous margin when we begin to look passively at our future selves, and see our own figures led with dull consent into insipid misdoing and shabby achievement" - -George Eliot Middlemarch, Chapter LXXIX _________________________________________________________________ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 01:19:20 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: NJC More birthdays.. happy birthday christina, hope your having fun in Nawlins! ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:24:29 +0000 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Joni and Joan Welcome from foggy Glasgow, Two thoughts: 1. Thanks to Colin for reading my mind and reminding us all that life is political (even if we think we're not) 2. Joni's voice in some of the 'Second Fret' recordings are very 'Joan Baez'. She has admitted in interviews that she sounded a lot like Joan in her early days with lotsa vibratto. I think Joni made an astute political decision to sing differently. I'm off to make a political (and probably politically unsound) cup of coffee (oh yes it is) Gordon PS Laurent...I'll be in touch soon...honest ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:44:45 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC I cannot see any jusifictaion for people thinking they are being attacked or made to feel guilty by the assertion that what we do has political ramfications. I doubt it is possible to live and consume nowadays without handing over money to a situation we would not like. No one suggested one should not buy jeans or zucchini. All that was being pointed out is that everything we do has ramifications. Perhaps some people need to feel attacked or guilty in order to feel alive. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 01:34:58 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC > I cannot see any jusifictaion for people thinking they are being attacked or > made to feel guilty by the assertion that what we do has political ramfications. > I doubt it is possible to live and consume nowadays without handing over money > to a situation we would not like. > No one suggested one should not buy jeans or zucchini. All that was being > pointed out is that everything we do has ramifications. If you had written all this at the beginning, I would have had a completely different undertstanding. However, initially you said "We all live and we all make choices and those choices are political. Choice in what we think, what we buy, what we eat, who we give to, even who we sleep with. It is all politcal." and Debra replied in part "The phrase "the personal is political" has been around a long time. Our every action shows what our political beliefs are." When people use words like "choice," "personal" and "every action shows what our political beliefs are" and then go on to talk about how we buy food and clothing processed or made by people under slavery, isn't is being implied somewhere in there that we have "chosen" by our "personal actions" reflecting our "political beliefs" to support oppression and poverty? If we have personal choice in this, don't most assume that we then have personal responsibility for the ramifications? But now you seem to be absolving most from accountibility for the ramifications because there is not much we can do about it. Maybe my mind is too literal and follows a string of logic that isn't meant to be there? > Perhaps some people need to feel attacked or guilty in order to feel alive. Well I'm glad I don't need to feel guilty anymore - I'm not a rich republican - yay! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:24:21 -0000 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Dorothy Fields Forever! (njc) If you have the ability to stream radio stations (Real Player, etc) there's a long running BBC Radio show called 'Woman's Hour' which is worth keeping an ear on. Recently they have had interviews with Linda Thompson and Lucy Kaplansky - and a while back I was engrossed by an interview with UK actress Angela Richards, who is currently playing unsung US lyricist Dorothy Fields in a current London fringe theatre show at the King's Head in Islington. The interview, recorded back in June, is still archived on the net here http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/03_06_02/thursday/info2.shtml and click 'Listen' Love the live recording of Dorothy Fields herself, singing 'Sunny Side of the Street' I missed the first and second runs of this London show, despite glowing "you must see this" reports from friends, in particular an eighty year old family friend (who danced on Broadway in 'Joyce Grenfell Requests the Pleasure' in the fifties). So I was pleased to see that it has been brought back again by popular demand and recently I took this old family friend to see it again - and her rec was well founded. A cast of 5 - with a pianist and d/bass player - telling and singing the life story of one of the greatest lyricist ever, that surprisingly few people have ever heard of (in the UK, at least). Fantastic performances all round - but especially Angela Richards who is sensational as Dorothy. And, of course I couldn't help but be pleased to hear David Lahm's name mentioned a couple of times in the show. A guy over here has set up a website about Dorothy Fields with details of all her songs - unbelievable that she wrote all these!! see http://www.dorothyfields.co.uk I noticed in the programme that the show will be moving to Off Broadway soon and they are looking for investors. So anyone with a few bucks they'd like to invest in a theatre show, I would highly recommend this one. PaulC my all-time favourite Dorothy Fields song: "The Way You Look Tonight" (performed beatifully in the London show by Robert Meadmore) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 05:59:14 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: njc Political differences? Pah! njc (long) In a message dated 30/10/2002 08:44:52 GMT Standard Time, jerryschirmer@hotmail.com writes: << Not to say that your Clinton style Democrats could hardly be labeled as Populist, or pro-middle/low class, but one would have to admit that the Republican party certainly champions the above values more strongly than the Democratic party does... >> I have long believed (and I know there are plenty of other people on this list who agree) that there is VERY little difference between the two main political parties in the USA, from what I understand about them. "Republican" or "Democrat", they are nearly all heading in the same direction, bending over backwards to allow big business to get on with their job of making their directors UNFEASIBLY rich, with the interests of the environment, the poor, in fact the majority of people, of merely peripheral interest. Anyone in any doubt that the last Democrat administrations were simply continuing a lot of the same policies as the Republicans who preceded them in office (and by extension that Dubya et al are merely continuing what Clinton and Gore did) could do worse than cast an eye over Michael Moore's "Stupid White Men", particularly the chapter entitled "Democrats DOA". Whether you are for or against the policies discussed, it seems hard to get away from the conclusion that either party will do more or less the same things, even if they complain about them when they're not in power. Those who complain about this are fobbed off with a pat on the back and a shrugged "That's Realpolitik, baby." There is certainly nothing going on in British politics at the moment to gainsay the notion that the tide is heading in one direction, with the two main political parties virtually indistinguishable. Membership of the single European currency is the only issue I can think of on which there is clear daylight between the parties. I challenge anyone to find one single thing that Jack Straw, for example (formerly Home Secretary, now Foreign Secretary), has said while in office that could not have been said by a Conservative. Ditto Tony Blair. The man is a Conservative, why is he leader of the Labour party?! On the big socio-economic issues, Labour and Conservative are struggling to find much to disagree about when it comes to issues like: - - taxation (they're against it and seek to reduce taxes at every opportunity, a measure which usually benefits the better-off more than the very poor) - - raising the minimum wage - although let it be acknowledged that the Tories wouldn't have introduced it in the first place - (it shouldn't be raised) - - crime (lock 'em up, build more prisons, talk of introducing some kind of analogous system to the vile "3 strikes and you're out") - - education (keep tinkering with the system, introduce ever more tests for children, demonise the teachers, make university students pay tuition fees, do everything to ensure that graduates start their working lives with huge debts) - - privatisation (sell off anything that isn't nailed down, despite the appalling consequences of privatising British Rail - and Labour want to do the same with the London Underground!) - incidentally privatisation ALWAYS leads to a small number of people becoming wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice, often overnight. And you know I could go on... The really depressing thing is that in all of these issues, Labour are now doing things that they promised they would not do, and indeed were railing against when in opposition. Maybe this is stating the bleedin' obvious - expect politicians to carry through with their manifesto commitments?? Don't be daft!! One small ray of light in the UK is that there IS a viable third party, which has been making quiet gains over the last few years. It is not inconceivable that the Liberal Democrats could supplant the Conservatives as the main Opposition party, if the Tories continue to shoot themselves in the foot and choose leaders as charmless and charisma-free as Ian Duncan Smith (how many of our American and Canadian listers have heard of HIM??). Blimey, don't know what came over me there, must be the cancellation of Autumn this year. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:12:06 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC > If you had written all this at the beginning, I would have had a completely > different undertstanding. yes I made the mistake of assuming people had thought about it. > However, initially you said "We all live and we > all make choices and those choices are political. Choice in what we think, > what we buy, > what we eat, who we give to, even who we sleep with. It is all politcal." yes and I stand by that. > > When people use words like "choice," "personal" and "every action shows what > our political beliefs are" i didn't use that phrase. i did not speak of belief but of action. > and then go on to talk about how we buy food and > clothing processed or made by people under slavery, isn't is being implied > somewhere in there that we have "chosen" by our "personal actions" not being implied no, being pointed out. Whetehr we like it or not, our choices have ramifications. > > reflecting our "political beliefs" to support oppression and poverty? never said that. this is where people read into things that are not there and thus feel attacked or guilty which is unproductive. > If we > have personal choice in this, don't most assume that we then have personal > responsibility for the ramifications? Of course we have personal responsibilty for our choices. Even when we don't know what the choices are, our actions still ahev ramifications. Ignorance is not a defence against personal responsibilty. I may do something that has a bad outome. I may not have known about the bad outcome and acted in good faith. The fact I was wrong deos not absolve me from the personal responsibilty. The action was mine and therefore I am resposnible. PR and guilt are not the same thing at all. > But now you seem to be absolving most > from accountibility for the ramifications because there is not much we can > do about it. Not at all. that is not what I said. Just because we are ignorant of something doesn't mean we won't get the result. i.e a young child will get burned by sticking her/his hand in the fire, even tho they may not have known would happen. The law doesn't change because we are ignorant of it. We still have personal responsibilty and we still have choices to make. My point being that we cannot possibly cover every single point but that does not absolve us and mean we should just say 'to hell with it all'. we do the best we can do. Beating ourselves up over failures is waste of time. If you KNOW you are buyin something that is prodcued thru cruelty or slavery or whatever, then you are saying it is okay that the slavery/cruelty exists and thus supporting it. If you do NOT know, you cannot be said to be supporting in your belief but the act of buying it is supporting it. Again act and thought are different. A simple example: buying a foreign car instead of a home produced one. What happened here is their are no home prodcued cars anymore. All our car manufacturers are owned by foreign companies. Maybe our cars were crap, that doesn't mean that our buying foreign didn't have it's affect. it closed copmpanies down. Our buying foreign made a point-we didn't want crap, maybe, and we didn't care that our own companies would go bust. Buying a daily newspaper. we have one or two or more papers that push out racist/homophobic/ zenophoic filth. Some of the people that buy these papers say they don't agree with the politcs of the paper but buy it for other reasons. Yet they are still providing money to enable the said paper to continue to publish it's filth. For that they are responsible even if they don't think so or like it! We have the grreatest gift of all-the power of choice. The more we eductate ourselves, the more we understand what those choices are and the better able we are to make imnformed choices. However, we still need to be gentle with ourselves. we cannot always make the right choices and sometimes it is impossible to make the right choice. Personal responsibility is not about balme or shame or guilt, it is out being accepting responsibility. Just because an action or ours does not have the outcome we intended does not do away with PR. I might add that this PR does apply to out thoughts and beliefs. It is our thoughts and beliefs that create our individual world. Our thoughts and beliefs are the cause of much or our suffering. It is not always what is done to us or what happens to us that casues the suffering but what we believe and think about what was done or happened. One person may be seriously ill. Their thought about it is'oh shit, what bad luick' and they deal with it. Another person may react by thinking'why me? what have I done wrong?' and thus suffer more. There is always more than one interpretation of any given event. Someone hasn't returend your call: oh, they don't like me, what have I done wrong(centre of the universe syndrome!). OR Oh, maybe something has happened to them. OR Maybe they missed my call. How we habitually react to things is what makes us. Habits can be changed. If we continually think we are being attacked, or we feel guilty all the time, or feel less than all the time, then we need to change these habits. Change is always possible and this is where PR comes in. The way we think, believe and act all have ramifications. None of us is isolated, we each affect the other. What goes on in my mind not only has ramifications for me but for others too. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 03:49:27 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC Colin, Why do you think people think you attacking them? I'm seriously just trying to understand and follow some of the things you and Debra have written. I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse - the understanding of everything you have written does not come automatically to me. I didn't mean to imply you or Debra were doing what I call "guilt trips." I would argue that the evoking of a sense guilt about something simply means to me a prompting of conscience when one has taken some action that is hurtful in some way, or has not acted on something for which they are responsible. I completely agree people shouldn't have false guilt (thereby being guilt-tripped) over something they really cannot control or do anything to change. The best they can do is to note it and hope that the situation improves in the future. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:45:43 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC kakki wrote: > Colin, > > Why do you think people think you attacking them? you wrote: Well, I understand now more what was meant but it wasn't clear at all to me before. What I wonder is what are we as individuals supposed to do about it? Boycott all food and clothing? Feel unending guilt on a daily basis? I think even if all Republicans, who seemed to be blamed by some people for all the evils in the world, were all killed and turned into Soylent Green for people to eat, and their clothing taken and redistributed, would this solve all the injustice and inequity in the world? (by the way, who did people blame for all the evil in the world before Republicans came into being relatively few years ago in the historical scheme of things?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:58:33 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC In a message dated 10/30/2002 2:28:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, kakkib@vzavenue.net writes: > Sometimes I get so sick of all the "imperialist" rhetoric and steady drip of > guilt trips that I sincerely wish everyone would go back to > buying only > goods made in the U.S. even if it costs 100 times as much. I am enjoying this discussion a lot. Kakki, you are echoing many of the same things I believe on these issues. Referencing your statement above, it is now VERY difficult to buy products made in the USA! I read last week where one of the last (major) shirt manufacturers in the US has had to close its doors. Next time you go clothes shopping - look at the tags. I'll give you a dollar for every "Made In The USA" tag if you give me a quarter for every "Made in Sri Lanka/Singapore etc." tag. When I worked at the kayak factory back in 2000, we bought 95% of our product from US suppliers. I was constantly pressured to transition to buying the same products from Pacific Rim suppliers in order to get a lower unit cost. This was one of the reasons I quit. The business had ZERO concern for supporting a domestic manufacturer and was ONLY concerned about the bottom line. Which is not to point the finger at business; we as consumers do the same thing every day. I am deeply saddened to read about United Air Lines heavy losses, as they were the only airline that did not make major cuts after 9/11. They committed to their employees that there would be no layoffs. And the flying public applauded but didn't support that attitude - they shopped for their best fare available. I concede that these are all really tricky issues without easy answers...it may be that our economy won't truly begin a turnaround until we have another 'Industrial Revolution' and gear back up to manufacturing real products again, which will HAVE to be SUPPORTED by consumers. Bob NP: AC/DC, "Night Of The Long Knives" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:46:02 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: [none] >I like Judy Collins. I loved the "Judith " album but I have to say "In >My >Life", "Wildflowers" and "Who Knows Where the Time Goes" are >wonderful >albums. Those three albums that you mentioned are probably her best albums. I like them better than "Judith" eventhough Judith WAY out-sold them. _________________________________________________________________ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:58:04 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: [none] >Bob >NP: Laura, "You Don't Love Me When I Cry" What a way to start off an alnum. I' may have to pull out this LP and cranck up my turntable. Will _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:58:07 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Judy - njc William Chavez wrote: > >I like Judy Collins. I loved the "Judith " album but I have to say "In >My > >Life", "Wildflowers" and "Who Knows Where the Time Goes" are >wonderful > >albums. > > Those three albums that you mentioned are probably her best albums. I like > them better than "Judith" eventhough Judith WAY out-sold them. Her Living album has always been in my top ten. Jerry (big Judy Collins fan) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:03:33 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC > I am enjoying this discussion a lot. Kakki, you are echoing many of the same things I believe on these issues. Referencing your statement above, it is now VERY difficult to buy products made in the USA! I read last week where one of the last (major) shirt manufacturers in the US has had to close its doors. Next time you go clothes shopping - look at the tags. I'll give you a dollar for every "Made In The USA" tag if you give me a quarter for every "Made in Sri Lanka/Singapore etc." tag. > It is exactly the same here. it is very diifuclt to sell good quality home produced goods. This is because we voted with our pocket. And now we seem to have little choice. At one time tho, when home produce was readily available and almost exclusively so, we chose to buy cheaper imports so that now that is all we can buy. We have been conditioned to want what we want and want it now at little cost. An example: woool garments are not now popular. Because of cheap acrylics and easy wash. Thus our woolen mills have all but disappeared. the acrylic stuff deos not do much to keep one warm. It doesn't wear well and is replaced quickly and cheaply.(here it is cold. one woollen sweater is enough to keep me warm when out. If i wear a sweatrshirt, I have to wear other things, like a coat, to get the same effect. We have sacrificed qaulity for quantity and cheapness. Shoe manufacturers have closed down too for the same reasons. DYSON was a company I liked. Invented by an Englishman who said his aim was to keep it British and keep British people employed. Then he became very successful.....and moved prodcution to Malaysia. so much for his ethics. Have the prices of a Dyson come down? no! So who is going to benefit? ummm...er.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:13:40 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Joni on... good for you, vince. - -----Original Message----- From: vince [mailto:revrvl@chartermi.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 6:25 PM To: Heather Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Joni on... Heather wrote: > No wonder Joni makes some of the bonehead comments she does. She's still > stuck in early fifties! The ultimate authority on all things is Dave Letterman, if not what he says, what we think he would say. And if we were to get Dave Letterman to comment on Joni, I bet he would say, "Our Joni is quirky." And that is how I understand her and it works for me. And it is just fine. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:20:05 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Joni on politics NJC and we can turn this entire thread right back ... some get the gravy and some get the gristle some get the marrow bone and some get nothing though there's plenty to share heather (and the threads they go round and round and the painted listers go up and down) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Ricw1217@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 10:32 PM To: kakkib@vzavenue.net; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC In a message dated 10/29/02 9:23:27 PM, kakkib@vzavenue.net writes: > I think even if all Republicans, who seemed to be blamed by some people for > all the evils in the world, were all killed and turned into Soylent Green > for people to eat, and their clothing taken and redistributed, would this > solve all the injustice and inequity in the world? > well, it would be a start! pass the salt, please...but you can keep the clothes... :) now now, let's play nice! ric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:04:18 -0500 From: Emily Gray Tedrowe Subject: political consumerism, NJC hi all. i've been thinking about this topic all morning, because it's one that i've come to be more and more invested in. i think after i went to graduate school, and learned to train myself to be a critical thinker about culture (as well as about literature, my field of study), i started examining my own choices as a consumer. (of television, for example--i stopped mindlessly letting waves of advertising wash over me and began thinking about the rhetoric involved in various ad campaigns--what's implied or assumed, for example, when a wal-mart ad shows a beamingly happy staff, hugging their boss, and telling us very earnestly about the happy environment of working at wal-mart.) when it comes to buying food or clothing, or other products, our thinking is even more necessary, i believe--because choosing which vegetable to eat or which shirt to wear are both reflections of what we literally support, with our money--whether we know it or not. i was really disgusted by the fact that i could be (and had been) so unthinking when it came to choosing which product to buy--i had let the sheer overwhelming choices available in our society kid me into thinking it doesn't matter which soda i drink or what kind of beef i cook. that the differences are those of style or aesthetics alone. i think that all this choice we have as consumers here (i'm talking about the US, because that's what i know about) comes with a price--i guess i've learned that i have to be responsible for the consequences of the things i buy with my money or my time. if i buy something, i am making a decision (whether it is an informed one or not) about the people behind that product. under what conditions was it manufactured? what are the worker/employer relations like? what kinds of politics or religion do the company's top execs support or underwrite? a lot of times, of course--i slip up, or i'm too tired or annoyed to think about it. it's so much easier not to! but then i think, those migrant workers picking the grapes for 1.80 an hour, with no benefits--they are separated from me (the consumer) by so much--by distance, by culture, by language (possibly), by factories and companies and people in suits who organize, transfer, and market these same grapes to get to my supermarket. when i pretend that they don't exist, the migrant workers of my hypothetical and off-the-top-of-my-head example--only because they can't speak directly to me--then i perpetuate exactly what a large corporation interested only in profit, wants. and i hate that feeling. i'm rambling here--because i find this such a powerful topic and one that's become more important to me, over the past five years or so. sorry for the soapbox-ish tone...i enjoyed the chance to put into words some thinking that i've had in more vague form, for some time. best, emily ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:13:21 -0800 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: eat the rich NJC On 29 Oct 2002 at 23:44, Yael Harlap wrote: > Kakki wrote: > >(by the way, who did > >people blame for all the evil in the world before Republicans came > >into being relatively few years ago in the historical scheme of > >things?) > > the rich! > and the republicans weren't always 'the rich' but they certainly are > now. > I'm resisting the urge to jump to deeply in the political stuff because I just signed a couple of new clients, BUT - The median income of members of the Republican party is a little over $36,000. That certainly isn't rich. However, statistics seem to bear out that if you are at the higher end of the middle class, you will likely vote Republican, while those earning less than $15,000 a year vote Democratic. Then again if you look at the 2000 presidential election by county, you'll find that the rural poor overwhelmingly voted for Bush. So in the big scheme of things for average citizens, actual income probably has less bearing on political affiliation than say, religion. Brenda n.p.: NPR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:37:56 -0800 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC > In a message dated 10/30/2002 2:28:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, > kakkib@vzavenue.net writes: > > > Sometimes I get so sick of all the "imperialist" rhetoric and steady > > drip of guilt trips that I sincerely wish everyone would go back to > > buying only goods made in the U.S. even if it costs 100 times as > > much. > On 30 Oct 2002 at 7:58, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > I am enjoying this discussion a lot. Kakki, you are echoing many of > the same things I believe on these issues. Referencing your statement > above, it is now VERY difficult to buy products made in the USA! I > read last week where one of the last (major) shirt manufacturers in > the US has had to close its doors. Next time you go clothes shopping - > look at the tags. I'll give you a dollar for every "Made In The USA" > tag if you give me a quarter for every "Made in Sri Lanka/Singapore > etc." tag. > I concede that these are all really tricky issues without easy > answers...it may be that our economy won't truly begin a turnaround > until we have another 'Industrial Revolution' and gear back up to > manufacturing real products again, which will HAVE to be SUPPORTED by > consumers. > Aren't we already in another revolution - the information economy? Isn't intellectual property the leading export of the U.S.? I know there are people who would vehemently disagree with me, but I think "Made In The USA" is a relic for a time that has long past. We Americans greatly benefit from the global economy that is largely our making. We shouldn't have a problem with buying goods that were made somewhere else because by doing so, we are playing our role in this system we've created (by proxy through our government, the companies we support when we buy their stock, etc.). I don't think that nationalism is entirely bad or wrong, however, it seems there are nationalistic things that we cling to that prevent us from seeing ourselves as a part of the rest of the world and taking our place alongside other global citizens. I think our security (and safety) depends on it. Brenda - -------------------------------------------- "Radio has no future" - Lord Kelvin, 1897 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 9:45:47 -0600 From: Subject: Rich Republicans, and Democrats Kakki wrote: "Yikes - The richest people in America according to the yearly lists that I read in Forbes and Vanity Fair are overwhelmingly Democrats. 99% of all of the media and business and entertainment moguls and artists listed are. So where do I find the list of the rich Republicans? Are the far richer Democrats exempt from blame because of their political party? Or are they exempt as long as they give money to the Democrat party?" HUH??? Well, for starters, I'd get the list of the CEO's, Board of Directors, and top executive staff of the Fortune 500--and then go down from there. Can anyone who reads the Wall Street Journal regularly (I have, and do) and listened to Friday night's "Wall Street Week in Review," with the WSJ's editorial board, really believe that the top--and richest-- business leaders in this country are *Democrats*?? I sure don't. And I'd like to see that list you referenced. It's possible that those on the very top in the arts and some businesses are Democrats, but my guess is that they're outliers--not representative of the norm. I'd like to see, again, the top 500. . . 1000. . . 10,000. Then it would be possible to make an informed judgement. While we're at it, it would be interesting to get a percentage of the number of *poor* Democrats and Republicans. Then again, that might not be representative, because the poorest of the poor may tend to throw their hands up in despair and dismay, and abstain from the whole sorry mess. It's a tired old saw, but it's one with a fair amount of truth to it. "Conservatives" are often those with something to conserve. Mary P. P.S. And what's with the name of that slighly more liberal political party in the U.S.: those who are members call it the "Democratic" party, and those who aren't call it the "Democrat" party?? What's THAT about? Just something I've noticed. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:51:47 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC > I know there are people who would vehemently disagree with me, but I think "Made > In The USA" is a relic for a time that has long past. We Americans greatly benefit > from the global economy that is largely our making. We shouldn't have a problem > with buying goods that were made somewhere else because by doing so, we are > playing our role in this system we've created (by proxy > through our government, the > companies we support when we buy their stock, etc.). All of this is VERY true, Brenda...as I said they are VERY complex issues. Unfortunately it is very easy to forget that there is still rural and agrarian sectors of our economy that continue to be decimated by the decrease of manufacturing and farming in this country. Not every citizen (in fact, only a small minority) can be a contributor to 'intellectual properties'. Also, we're probably past the top of the bell curve in terms of the "information revolution", and will eventually need to return to the production of more tangible goods. Greenville was once the "textile capital" of The USA. Obviously, that's no longer the case, although there remain fragments of the industry here. Luckily, new industry (like the BMW plant I've mantioned in the past) is a HUGE reason that our unemployment is low and the region is "sprawling" with an influx of people. Many blue-collar communities have not been as lucky. Now get back to those clients! ;~) Bob NP: AC/DC, "Given The Dog A Bone" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:08:57 -0600 From: Subject: RE: The Personal is political Hell wrote, and Yael responded: "Hell said: >It depends entirely on the motives of the person involved. If Bob is >choosing between zucchini and summer squash on the basis of where it was >picked, and whether the workers picking the vegetables have been taken >advantage of etc., etc. then yes, the choice is political. But if he's >choosing simply on the basis of flavour, ie. he prefers zucchini to squash, >and ignores those other factors, then that choice has no political motive >whatsoever. It's simply a matter of taste. It may not have a political MOTIVE but it does have political implications and CONSEQUENCES. so even though it is a very personal act, it has broader ramifications. if anyone chooses to think that their actions have no implications, that simple and basic choices are only their own personal and individual choices, they are making a choice right there, as far as i am concerned, to *ignore* the ramifications of their actions." Me now: I agree with what I remember to be Hell's first line, that the personal CAN be political, but also agree with Yael that it very often is. Namely, a decision not become informed about whether there are political implications in choosing one vegetable over another IS a political decision, as is the deicision to focus on taste to the exclusion of political implications. IMHO. I remember, as a graduate student in English literature, a battle royale in the Academy over the use of "political" analyses in interpreting literature. Those on the "no politics" side held that the Text Almighty was a sort of artifact in and of itself, and should be studied, as much as possible, free of considering such "extraneous" matters as the social conditions under which it was written, or the subtle (or not so subtle) biases of the author. Those in the other camp believed that to hold that a Text was somehow separate from political concerns or analyses was simply to deny reality: saying this was so did not make it so. Such an unquestioning separation in the mind of the reader might even have the effect of continuing to prop up the dominant power structures that may have influenced the work. Can you guess which camp I was in? As with all things, there is a happy medium here. The enjoyment of good literature IS an aesthetic experience, removed, on at least some levels, from any social or political concerns. And to ignore those concerns is, in my opinion, not to fully appreciate the work. I know no one here before me was saying anything about the study and interpretation of English literature. But some of this discussion has taken me back to those days, and those battles. Perhaps the more things change, the more they stay the same. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:10:54 -0800 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Subject: eat the rich/politcal contributions NJC On 30 Oct 2002 at 2:43, Jerry Schirmer wrote: > Business execs democrats? Big business PACs invariably give the lions > share of their campaign contributions and support to the > Republicans... there are some execptions, particularly in media, but > business overall is definitely very pro-republican. A good point is > made about more democratic politicans being richer as individuals than > republicans, but it has to also be considered that the republicans > raise a lot more money than the democrats do, so to get elec ted, > democratic politicans often are forced to rely upon their own personal > fortunes... > I highly recommend checking out Opensecrets to get the real scoop on who is giving what to whom. http://www.opensecrets.org/ Big business is buying both parties. Brenda - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:39:40 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: Big Yellow Taxi - the group Christina you absolutely nailed it - it is quite beautiful. As to Black Crow, I am not a musician but I hear a different rhythm or something from Joni's version - maybe someone could explain. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:29:53 -0800 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC It's so rare to see you engaged in a discussion about anything even remotely political...so....I can't resist! On 30 Oct 2002 at 10:51, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > All of this is VERY true, Brenda...as I said they are VERY complex > issues. Unfortunately it is very easy to forget that there is still > rural and agrarian sectors of our economy that continue to be > decimated by the decrease of manufacturing and farming in this > country. It's certainly not easy for me to forget. My own family was "family farm" but that ended for us years ago. And I grew up in Cleveland in the 70's and '80's. I saw firsthand the blighted landscape of cold, closed steel mills. I know what that decimation is like. Not every citizen (in fact, only a small minority) can be a > contributor to 'intellectual properties'. Says who? Intellectual property is a huge part of our economy and plays a role in most of our employers - public and private. There may be a smaller group who will OWN intellectual property but that doesn't mean a larger group can't create it or work in the field. Also, we're probably past > the top of the bell curve in terms of the "information revolution", What do you mean by this? Frankly, I think the information revolution has really only just begun. How many people here owned a personal computer 20 years ago - 1982? > and will eventually need to return to the production of more tangible > goods. > Why? What is this need based on? Brenda - -------------------------------------------- "Radio has no future" - Lord Kelvin, 1897 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:32:49 -0500 From: "Christopher Treacy" Subject: Judy Collins Any takers for "The Fifth Album"? or the "Recollections" compilation of the early troubadour material? That's how I like her the best.However cheesy "Hard Times For Lovers" has a place in my heart.-Chris NP: Silence (eeeech! Gotta get rid of that!) --- Christopher Treacy--- ctreacy1889@earthlink.net--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:41:02 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on politics...made in the USA...globalism NJC > It's so rare to see you engaged in a discussion about anything even remotely > political...so....I can't resist! LOL! Well, as you can tell I barely know what I'm talking about, so typically I prefer not to put my ignorance on display. > Says who? Intellectual property is a huge part of our economy and plays a role in > most of our employers - public and private. Well, perhaps this is just my misunderstanding of the term. > What do you mean by this? Frankly, I think the information revolution has really only > just begun. How many people here owned a personal computer 20 years ago - > 1982? But don't you think we're seeing a very real leveling out in the PC industry? The majority of us who are going to want to own one do, and while we may have bought into upgrading every 2 years or so, when the improvements were so monumental (anybody try to work on a 386 lately?), now the improvements have become so slight that those sales are not what they were a couple of years ago. True, many people do not own a PC, but do they even want to? > > and will eventually need to return to the production of > more tangible > > goods. > > > > Why? What is this need based on? Well, I can't point you to any articles on the web. ;~) It's nothing more than a gut feeling that I get driving around this country that gives the perception that LOTS of areas haven't changed as much as we would like to think they have. Are you familiar with the "Pluggers" comic strip? It's sort of based on this concept (and if you look, MANY of the submittals come from SC). Bob NP: Ryan Adams, "Damn, Sam (I Love A Woman That Rains)" ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #450 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)