From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #448 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, October 29 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 448 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in History: October 29 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Mingus Band - NJC ["mike pritchard" ] Re: NJC More birthdays... [Catherine McKay ] NJC An interesting quote [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Joni in Rolling Stone, njc [Jerry Notaro ] Birthdays Galore (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re: Mingus Band - NJC ["Blair Fraipont" ] Re: NJC More birthdays... [Mags N Brei ] Re: NJC An interesting quote ["Paul Castle" ] 1987 Benefit ["J.David Sapp" ] Joni Mitchell aka Songs to a seagull [James Phillips ] Re: Joni would want us to vote! [dsk ] Re: NJC An interesting quote [dsk ] Re: Joni on politics ["kakki" ] Re: NJC An interesting quote ["Cynthia Vickery" ] Re: NJC An interesting quote [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni on politics [dsk ] Re: Mingus Band - NJC [dsk ] Re: Joni on politics ["kakki" ] Re: Joni on politics [colin ] Re: Joni on politics NJC [dsk ] Re: Joni on politics NJC [dsk ] Fw: 1987 Benefit ["Happy The Man" ] Re: HappY Fecking Birthday Dawg!!!! (NJC) [Christoffer Gudi Sommer-Gleeru] Re: HappY Fecking Birthday Dawg!!!! (NJC) [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Joni on politics NJC ["kakki" ] RE: Joni on politics ["Heather" ] Re: Joni on politics NJC ["kakki" ] Does anyone know the song and songwriter? [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: Does anyone know the song and songwriter? [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: Joni on... [vince ] Re: Joni on politics NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Big Yellow Taxi - the group [Christoffer Gudi Sommer-Gleerup ] Re: Joni on politics NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] PazFest, that number again is.... ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: my last comment on joni and lesbians NJC ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Joni on politics NJC [colin ] Re: Joni on politics NJC [Ricw1217@aol.com] Re: Joni on politics NJC [colin ] Re: Joni on politics NJC [Mags N Brei ] Re: Re: Joni on politics NJC [hell ] Re: HappY Fecking Birthday Dawg!!!! (NJC) [Christoffer Gudi Sommer-Gleeru] Re: Joni on politics NJC ["kakki" ] chat time! NJC [Yael Harlap ] Re: Re: Joni on politics NJC [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 03:00:56 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: October 29 1996: The albums "Hits" and "Misses" were released. 1998: Joni performed in Toronto. More info: http://www.jmdl.com/performances/docs/981029.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/RoadAgainToronto1098.html - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:03:54 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Mingus Band - NJC It's International Jazz Festival time here again in Barcelona and I've just got my tickets for Norah Jones and also for the Mingus Big Band concert. Anyone out there heard the Mingus band and have an opinion to share? Dave Holland Big Band here too. Any opinion on that? mike in barcelona NP - Metheny/Holland/Haynes. question and answer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:17:21 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC More birthdays... --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Well, it's still the 28th here, but in Denmark it's > the 29th, so let me be > the first to wish a BIG HAPPY BIRTHDAY to the Danish > songbird who won our > hearts at Jonifest, that "Queen of Femininity"...;~) > > Christina Friis-Nielsen!!! (aka the voice of 'Big > Yellow Taxi') Well, then - let me be the second. Never made it to Jonifest, but then, Joni never made it to Woodstock... Christina, I'm a proud owner of your CD (hi Henning - everything you say about CDBaby seems to be true). All the best for a great year ahead of you. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:55:42 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: NJC An interesting quote Interesting quote from the annals of history.... "Naturally the common people don't want war....... That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." Hermann Goering, 1937. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:26:22 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Joni in Rolling Stone, njc "Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama)" wrote: > Well, yeah. It's hard to feel sorry for someone who's in the Songwriter's > Hall Of Fame, has a star in front of Gruman's Chinese Theater, is in the > Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, is always listed among the most influencial > guitar players (in spite of having a "slow" left hand!) and let's see..... > am I leaving anything out???..... oh, yeah, someone who owns a retreat in > the woods in Canada *AND* a home in freckin' Bel Air. > > Poor Joni. Things must be so HARD for her. Maybe we should hold a > telethon? Naw...... Reminds me of an item I read recently about Matthew Perry coming out of rehab: Let's see. He's young, good looking, rich, and famous. That's what must have driven him to drink.! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:22:07 -0500 From: Yael Harlap Subject: kevin aucoin NJC Kakki clarified: >By the way, Kevin Aucoin is the drummer on Paz's set and also played at Atty >Mays during J-Fest 2001 isn't that weird? from my tori amos fan life, i know there was a famous kevin aucoin who was a stylist/make-up artist to the stars... right? he just died this year... funny, that. when i first read lama's post that named 'kevin aucoin' i thought 'he MUST have that name wrong because that's the guy who did make-up'. but i guess there are multiple kevin aucoins. - -yael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:37:45 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Birthdays Galore (NJC) A VERY Happy Birthday to my latest JMDL good buddy Ms. Christina Friis- Nielsen. We will be in full celebration with the family here this evening. I went out and bought a half gallon of gin for the party and I will be cooking up some of my special vittles for the gang tonight. Then we will have a jam with Jqck and the kids. Christina may you have the best of everything and filled with musical wonders always! Love Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:46:03 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: Mingus Band - NJC I have seen the Mingus Big Band twice. ONce in at the WIlmington DE OPera House and the second time at Fez Under Time Cafe in NYC. ANd both times blew me away. They have such a large repetoire and pick the best Mingus songs to play. The muscianship was tight, colorful, fun, bluesy, firey and alive! The first time, I approached and shook hands with the bass player, who was from Russia and was playing Mingus's bass from the sixties! I was so excited because in my little mind, through time and space, I was shaking hands with Mingus through the Russian. The second time in nyc, Sue Mingus was there, so that was a treat to see her in person (she kept off the stage and only watched the performance). BUt, yes, YEs. See this band, they are t-riffic and if you need any Mingus record buying suggestions, just ask me. Blair The Crystals, "Then He Kissed ME" >Anyone out there heard the Mingus band and have an opinion to share? Dave >Holland Big Band here too. Any opinion on that? >mike in barcelona >NP - Metheny/Holland/Haynes. question and answer _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 06:59:02 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: NJC More birthdays... happy birthday song bird Christina!!! love, magsnbrei SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote:Well, it's still the 28th here, but in Denmark it's the 29th, so let me be the first to wish a BIG HAPPY BIRTHDAY to the Danish songbird who won our hearts at Jonifest, that "Queen of Femininity"...;~) Christina Friis-Nielsen!!! (aka the voice of 'Big Yellow Taxi') Hope the day is all-around wonderful for you Christina! Bob, with sincere apologies to the proper fairies & gnomes who usually do this kind of thing... NP: Laura Nyro, "Gibsom Street" You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:58:51 -0000 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Re: NJC An interesting quote I'll take solace in this one, which I just found at the bottom of Hugh Blumenfeld's Balladtree.com site - "There's nothing that can't be accomplished with a guitar and a cup of coffee." PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:21:37 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: 1987 Benefit Laurent - i've been looking for any recording of this - are you aware of one? peace, david ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 2002 10:11:20 -0800 From: James Phillips Subject: Joni Mitchell aka Songs to a seagull hello.... after this talk about Joni singing in a lower register on her first album, I decided to listen to it earlier. There are some songs in which she does sing higher (I had a king sounds like she is singing or at least playing in the key of E) but on a whole she sounds like she is singing in her "natural" range. take care of yourselves, James Phillips Blue, songs are like tattoos, You know I've been to sea before, Come and anchor me, Or let me sail away.... "Blue" written by Joni Mitchell http://www.geocities.com/thebleachboi/home.html - ------------------------------------------------------------- Sign up for ICQmail at http://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 2002 10:13:47 -0800 From: James Phillips Subject: NJC Linda Ronstadt btw.... was noticing the thread about Linda ronstadt. Her album Get Closer was released in 1982, the follow up to the Mad Love album. Then, after that, was the Nelson Riddle albums. Thought I would clarify that for someone who posted that Get Closer was her first pop album after the albums of stadards she recorded. James in Urbana now playing Joni Mitchell - Woodstock (Shadows and Light version) Blue, songs are like tattoos, You know I've been to sea before, Come and anchor me, Or let me sail away.... "Blue" written by Joni Mitchell http://www.geocities.com/thebleachboi/home.html - ------------------------------------------------------------- Sign up for ICQmail at http://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:20:46 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Joni would want us to vote! vince wrote: > > Joni was always a supporter of the peace and justice movements, some > examples shown above by a most wise poster. I am not claiming Joni a member of > any party, not sure she has ever gotten remotely close to being other than a > fierce independent, I think she would flee for a party label, but Joni has been > one of us for peace and justice issues from the beginning. Yes to that, along with her being consistently against huge corporations, pollution, rigid thinking, falseness, and putting the pursuit of money above all other goals (all expressed in her work and interviews). I can't imagine she'd fall for anything Bush or his co-leaders have to say. In general I see her as a political moderate, drawn more to the Democrats than the Republicans, as most artists are. Is Joni a U.S. citizen? Usually there's some publicity when a celebrity becomes a citizen and I don't remember ever hearing anything about that. So, she may not even be able to vote in the U.S., which doesn't mean she wouldn't (or shouldn't) have strong opinions about what goes on here. Debra Shea NPIMH: Ethiopia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:38:57 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: NJC An interesting quote Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > > [passing along a "how to control" quote by Hermann Goering, 1937]: > > All you have to do is tell them they > are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and > exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." Excellent quote, Bob. How chilling! And, unfortunately, very true. It's certainly worked well on a lot of people in this country. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:04:08 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on politics http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=859 JL: We're back now with our Inner View with Joni Mitchell and what was to me some rather surprising revelations for anyone who began listening to Joni in the 60s and came to identify her with the radical idealism of the times. JM: For one thing, I didn't really identify with that. To me, it wasn't really radical change, the 60s. The costumes were the change. You know, for all physical appearances people had painted geometric designs on their faces and they were wearing jester's costumes, 14th century looking apparel, and they'd grown their hair long. I think the style was the most radical. Nothing really that startling came upon me in the 60s. I don't think I've changed very much in my thinking since I was maybe 10, you know, generally speaking. JL: Oh really? JM: Nothing really radical has changed. Things that I observed on the playground in the third grade were fairly astute visions in the small, later to be applied to high school, later to be applied to committees, later to be applied to politics, you know, later to be applied to the world. (Music up: "Songs to Aging Children Come.") JM: I didn't feel a part of the 60s even though that's the part I'm accredited. Mine was an internal revolution. In the 60s I was going through more what people were going through in the 70s in a certain way. You know what I mean? I was going through more of a personal revolution. I didn't find a lot of the leadership in the 60s particularly inspiring in government or within our own peer group. I always felt that we were rather fleas on an elephant's leg and much more powerless than we would want to trump one another up to believe. So the transition wasn't too radical for me. Phil Ochs, of course, when the war ended, he ended. You know, there were some people that were very caught up in it. I'm not a political person. My interest has always been in the spiritual, and they stand in direct opposition in a certain way. Mine has been a freeing of my own bigotry, you know. You need to be a bigot from time to time in order to have confines on your art. You have to prefer, which immediately makes you a bigot. So for me it's been lack of identification with groups. I mean I have no religious affiliation, I have no national affiliation. I'm a Canadian living in America, but I don't feel any more like a Canadian or an American or -- you see what I mean? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:40:53 -0600 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: NJC An interesting quote Bob sent an <> BOB! wow! is this a political post? that makes 2 in the 2.5 years i've been here!! slow down, bud.... i'm gettin' dizzy! ;o) cindy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:04:17 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: RE: STAS and Joni's vocal range It has often seemed to me that in her early albums Joni used her high register as she would use Shorter's sax in later years. The "to,to,to,to,to,to,to,to,to,tooooo" at the end of Roses Blue always sounded silly until I envisioned her voice a saxophone. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:52:16 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC An interesting quote > It's > certainly worked well on a lot of people in this country. Like Mr. Stills says, "Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep, comes when you're always afraid, step outta line the man comes to take you away", or something like that. I remember being iced the first time I heard that lyric on my sister's 45 of "For What It's Worth". And I can't speak for the country, but here in SC it's pretty nutty. When the sniper was loose, I overheard a co-worker say she was afraid to gas up her car - in GREENVILLE! Bob, back on AOL at work... NP: The Capitols, "Cool Jerk" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:04:36 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Joni on politics I've never seen Joni as a radical, especially never far left, and she's said many things about politics over the years. There was one story about her turning a bowl of oatmeal onto Graham Nash's head, out of anger? frustration? because he wasn't interested in what was happening in his country, which gave me the impression that she feels that some political involvement is important, at least on the personal level. I looked a couple of days ago but couldn't find that story in the archives. And whether Joni calls it "political" or not, many of her songs do express a definite political opinion, not always overtly. It's kind of like her saying she's not a feminist, even though her life shows that she very much is. Joni might like to believe she lives outside the confines of society, but she's very much a part of it. Debra Shea NPIMH: The Arrangement (political opinion expressed in a personal way) kakki wrote: > > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=859 ... > So for me it's been lack of identification > with groups. I mean I have no religious affiliation, I have no national > affiliation. I'm a Canadian living in America, but I don't feel any more > like a Canadian or an American or -- you see what I mean? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:33:35 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Mingus Band - NJC mike pritchard wrote: > > It's International Jazz Festival time here again in Barcelona and I've just > got my tickets for Norah Jones and also for the Mingus Big Band concert. > Anyone out there heard the Mingus band and have an opinion to share? Hi Mike, I've seen the Mingus Big Band at Fez here in NYC. Small packed room and the music was extremely loud. Before going I only knew him from Joni's "Mingus". I didn't come away from the show a Mingus fan, but was impressed, especially with the humor of his music. There were so many unexpected turns I found myself laughing a few times. In general, it all seemed very intellectual, though, so I wasn't emotionally taken in. Since I don't know much about Mingus's music, I don't know whether that "intellectual" quality is one of the characteristics of his music, or whether it was just the way it was played by the band. Along with the jaggedness, there were some beautiful, even emotionally moving, brief passages. So it was an intriguing mix, for that one night anyway. With Sue Mingus in tight control of how the music is played, it's as close to what Mingus wanted as possible; at least she's said that's what she and the band are aiming for. She was there the night I saw them, watching over things, and speaking at one point about some new engagements. It's definitely an experience to have at least once, and more often if you're a fan of his music. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:00:21 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on politics > And whether Joni calls it "political" or not, many of her songs do > express a definite political opinion, not always overtly. Of course. Or ultimately a spiritual point of view that transcends political party platforms. I ahve always been opposed to big corporate monopolies and malfeasance, was a volunteer tutor for Headstart, opposed the Vietnam war, worked on the campaign for coastal preservation, along with being a volunteer for a number of environmental causes, have always been sickened by tele-evangelists and have never stepped on anyone to pursue money. Whatever motivated me to have these points of view never came from any instruction from, or identification with, a particular political party. Joni doesn't seem to agree with pigeon-holing but strives for enlightenment beyond that. This was my favorite quote in the interview - very wise: "Things that I observed on the playground in the third grade were fairly astute visions in the small, later to be applied to high school, later to be applied to committees, later to be applied to politics, you know, later to be applied to the world." Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:09:02 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni on politics > And whether Joni calls it "political" or not, national > > affiliation. I'm a Canadian living in America, but I don't feel any more > > like a Canadian or an American or -- you see what I mean? we are all politcal whether we like it or not. We all live and we all make choices and those choices are political. Choice in what we think, what we buy, what we eat, who we give to, even who we sleep with. It is all politcal. - -- bw colin TANTRA LHASA APSO (reg 1982) colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:37:40 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC kakki wrote: > > > And whether Joni calls it "political" or not, many of her songs do > > express a definite political opinion, not always overtly. > > Of course. Or ultimately a spiritual point of view that transcends > political party platforms. This is an issue that's come up before on this list and I've never understood it, and your comments bring it to mind again, Kakki, although I'm not just addressing you here. Do people really think that identifying with a political party means that a person's brain turns to complete mush? People identify with anything, including an established political party, because *most of* the goals of that group match the goals of the person. There's probably never a time when every single goal of any group exactly matches every single goal of a person in that group. Sometimes, though, only a group can create change so that identifying with a group can be a good thing. Everyone is somewhere along the political spectrum based on their behavior over time, which doesn't mean that the person is rigidly locked into that spot, or that on some issues the person may not choose differently. But to act like there's not a political spectrum, or that people don't tend to behave in consistent ways based on their inner attitude (which then results in their "politics" and a corresponding "label"), just makes it impossible to talk about politics. Labels, if applied rigidly (as in assuming a Democrat or Republican is in "complete agreement with a political party's platform"), can confine, but they can also enable people to have a meaningful discussion. Joni acting as though there are no labels is just some more free-talking foolishness (in my opinion), and is fine, especially if she's giving a monologue as she tends to do, but would make it very difficult to actually discuss such things with her. Sorry if this is coming across as belligerent. I don't mean it to be. I am feeling (and have often felt) frustrated at how the political discussions here so often turn into "I don't believe in labels" comments, as though such labels don't exist. They do. Much better to at least attempt to understand what we mean by them and expand them rather than try to wish them away, at least if decent conversation is the goal. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:41:20 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC colin wrote: > > we are all politcal whether we like it or not. We all live and we all make > choices and those choices are political. Choice in what we think, what we buy, > what we eat, who we give to, even who we sleep with. It is all politcal. Yes, exactly. The phrase "the personal is political" has been around a long time. Our every action shows what our political beliefs are. To think politics is just identifying with an established political party doesn't make sense to me. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:52:23 -0600 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: Fw: 1987 Benefit > > I was there. What the reviewer doesn't say is that Joni did stop more > than > > once because the talk from the audience was literally covering her singing > > at the piano. Joni opened the benefit (gasp!) and everybody had come for > > Willy Nelson and Kris so you can imagine how much attention they paid Joni > > in between 2 frankfurters and beer! Grand fiasco at the piano. You wonder why she would continue to do these. Did she ever say she was going to be more selective about what she did? You had the Amnesty concert where the crowd was loud and almost peltered her with a water bottle and a couple of others come to mind but not he details. Peace, Craig ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:51:41 +0100 From: Christoffer Gudi Sommer-Gleerup Subject: Re: HappY Fecking Birthday Dawg!!!! (NJC) I'll shoot Paz for not telling me about your birthday...I see him every fecking day! Well, happy belated birthday then - hope you had a great one. Can't wait to see sometime this winter!! Love, Christina Quoting kakki : > Happy birthday dear Julius - one of my oldest and bestest friends on the > list (even older than Paz - haha). May you find everything beautiful in the > coming year. > > I'm sorry about your Giants - I was torn a bit seeing Coach Dusty Baker so > down after the loss - he was my favorite Dodger back in the day. Then > again, I always liked Scoscia, too ;-) > > Love, Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:14:22 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: HappY Fecking Birthday Dawg!!!! (NJC) Christina writes: << I'll shoot Paz for not telling me about your birthday... >> Christina! You're sounding more and more like an American every day! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:44:13 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC > This is an issue that's come up before on this list and I've never > understood it, and your comments bring it to mind again, Kakki, although > I'm not just addressing you here. What would you think is the genesis of an individual's actions to want to do something, for lack of a better word, "the common good" (support the environment, decry greed, help the poor, etc.)? Doesn't it first come from some sense within themself? I used the word spiritual broadly and do not mean to imply any particular relgious faith or denomination. I have always supported many causes that some would label as me being "one of us." Then again, my support for individual freedoms and protections may sharply conflict with that "us" group at times. So does that mean I then become "one of them?" > Do people really think that identifying with a political party means > that a person's brain turns to complete mush? I would hope not. But some people at times do appear to parrot political party, no matter which particular political party, talking points unconditionally and uncritically, and therefore, unthinkingly. >People identify with anything, including an established political party, because *most of* > the goals of that group match the goals of the person. And sometimes the goals can be the same with two different parties. >There's probably never a time when every single goal of any group exactly matches every > single goal of a person in that group. Sometimes, though, only a group > can create change so that identifying with a group can be a good thing. Yes. But sometimes a group can become a mob, too. > But to act like there's not a political spectrum, or that > people don't tend to behave in consistent ways based on their inner > attitude (which then results in their "politics" and a corresponding > "label"), just makes it impossible to talk about politics. I don't think anyone acts like there is not a political spectrum. I just think Joni, as a public figure, doesn't want to be pigeonholed politically. She wants people to see her as an individual and not be labeled with what someone else thinks she is or wishes she would be. > Labels, if applied rigidly (as in assuming a Democrat or Republican is in "complete > agreement with a political party's platform"), can confine, but they can > also enable people to have a meaningful discussion. Sometimes. > Joni acting as though there are no labels is just some more free-talking > foolishness (in my opinion), and is fine, especially if she's giving a > monologue as she tends to do, but would make it very difficult to > actually discuss such things with her. I don't interpret her remarks as saying there are no labels. I think she is in a way warning about the simple-mindedness with which labels can be used. I'd bet you a good wager if you spoke to her privately it would be very easy to have a discussion with her. She never holds back what is on her mind. I don't think she would necessarily sit there rigidly locked in a particular position, however. I think she enjoys the give and take of a discussion on any subject. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:46:57 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Joni on politics No wonder Joni makes some of the bonehead comments she does. She's still stuck in early fifties! Heather http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=859 <> JM: <> Nothing really that startling came upon me in the 60s. I don't think I've changed very much in my thinking since I was maybe 10, you know, generally speaking. JL: Oh really? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:07:04 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC I throw in the towel on this one and will just accept I am some kind of alien because I have never understood the idea that everything one does is connected with their political beliefs. I love and support, financially and otherwise, artists whose political beliefs are different than mine and I have slept mostly with Democrats in my life, so go figure. Kakki > colin wrote: > > > > we are all politcal whether we like it or not. We all live and we all make > > choices and those choices are political. Choice in what we think, what we buy, > > what we eat, who we give to, even who we sleep with. It is all politcal. > > Yes, exactly. The phrase "the personal is political" has been around a > long time. Our every action shows what our political beliefs are. To > think politics is just identifying with an established political party > doesn't make sense to me. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:03:38 -0500 From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Does anyone know the song and songwriter? I just found out about this Joni referance.I've never heard the song.the lyric is:"Hearin' Joni Mitchell is as good as smoking grass". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:17:37 -0500 From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: Does anyone know the song and songwriter? sorry it's "feels as good",not "is as good". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:24:35 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Joni on... Heather wrote: > No wonder Joni makes some of the bonehead comments she does. She's still > stuck in early fifties! The ultimate authority on all things is Dave Letterman, if not what he says, what we think he would say. And if we were to get Dave Letterman to comment on Joni, I bet he would say, "Our Joni is quirky." And that is how I understand her and it works for me. And it is just fine. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:42:30 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC Kakki writes: << I have never understood the idea that everything one does is connected with their political beliefs. >> I AGREE TOTALLY, KAKKI! I am deciding right now whether to have summer squash or zucchini with my dinner tonight. How will choosing between one or the other be political? Can anybody tell me? Saying that everything one does is political is as foolish to me as saying that everything one does is selfish -- and just as untrue. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:43:47 +0100 From: Christoffer Gudi Sommer-Gleerup Subject: Re: Big Yellow Taxi - the group > i've been listening to the Big Yellow Taxi CD - its GORGEOUS. My favorite > track is Dawntreader (have we ever analyzed these lyrics? i could use it). Thank you, David, I'm so glad you like it! I sang Dawntreader a couple of times before I got the right feel and I really enjoy singing that song. One of my faves of all. I won't start the analysing process, though. I'm still not hooked up with my computer - am in fact going nuts about it - so I have limited time on here...hopefully that'll soon change. > Black Crow and Sunny Sunday are also superlative. You just picked my two other favorites! I'm lucky to get to sing lots with Michael playing along these days...what a treat! Thanks again for the comment! Christina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:49:31 -0500 From: "PAUL PETERSON" Subject: NJC Political Re: Kasey Simpson's Post October 28 you say the left has lost its moral bearings. Yet you do not indicate your knowledge of the crimes committed by the west against the rest of the world in the years since WW2. Our affluence and freedom is dependent on the poverty and enslavement of much of the rest of the world. No one denies the horrors of the Iraqi regime. The issue is whether invasion, war, destruction and death is our only option. If we could wait out the Soviet empire why can't e wait out Sadam Hussein? Further - why are the hawks so sure that the world after an invasion of Iraq will be safer than the world is now? There are reasonable arguments that such an invasion will only worsen the present situation. There's nothing knee-jerk about the decision to contain Iraq. I believe that those who accept the naive notion that such an invasion will make us safer have lost their moral bearings. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:53:07 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC In a message dated 10/29/2002 6:43:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, Murphycopy@aol.com writes: > I am deciding right now whether to have summer squash or zucchini with my > dinner tonight. How will choosing between one or the other be political? > Can > anybody tell me? > Choosing between two vegetables? That's definitely Republican! LOL! Just kidding all, no flames please... Bob NP: Joni, "Sunny Sunday" on KSCA '94 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:54:17 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: PazFest, that number again is.... To get ordering info on the 2-CD, $30 set, in the USA, send an email to the Ruth Paz Foundation at: michaelpazz@directvinternet.com Will said, >>>> >Pazfest demonstrates that even if Joni had never sang or played any musical >instruments in public, her song writing alone would >have given her genius >status. to which William Chavez said, DITTO!!!!!!!! Will-Eventhough I don't own Pazfest I know what your trying to say. I guess I need to get this CD twofer.>>>> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:04:25 -0500 From: vince Subject: Murph on vegetables NJC SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: Choosing between two vegetables? That's definitely Republican! LOL! Just kidding all, no flames please... > In a message dated 10/29/2002 6:43:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Murphycopy@aol.com writes: > > > I am deciding right now whether to have summer squash or zucchini with my > > dinner tonight. How will choosing between one or the other be political? > > Can > > anybody tell me? > > > > If they are heavily saturated in fried oils before eating, rabid conservative Republican. Eaten with a light cheese topping, moderate conservative Republican. Eaten in a salad, Democrat. Eaten in a meal without meat, liberal Democrat. Eaten raw, Green party, Eating the zucchini without cutting it up at all, just swallowing it, flaming fag Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:06:44 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: my last comment on joni and lesbians NJC Hey bud, Yeah, I agree. I know. I hear ya. As Running Water would say, "I feel ya." As Mister Clinton would say, "I feel your pain." If I had said those things (Joni's more like a man, that way.) as Bobby did it would have been coming from a slightly homophobic position. But my point, (and I'm happy to make it perennially cause it means that you're around, bud) is that Joni and Bobby are the LEAST of your problems. Yeah, they have a whisker of sexism and a whisker of homophobia, respectively. So what? I mean, Bobby smoked fricken' JOINTS with Allen Ginsberg if legend is correct. He's not out to destroy bisexuals. Joni has tons of bi and gay friends. She pulled Valentino into her PWWaM video. (While I don't know his orientation, and it's none of my business, he could sort of stand-in for a gay man. Ya know?) She's not the enemy. I've said far more judgemental things than they have, yet you (Yael) still speak to me. Is it enough to identify it or are you seeking a remedy of some kind? Lama Yael said, >>------------------------------ Subject: my last comment on joni and lesbians NJC on some level, so what? we all have been taught oppressive beliefs. i still believe it is good to point it out. if i had been chatting to joni at that point, i would have said, "oh, y'know, i think it is so unfortunate how people in our society get hung up over being labeled 'gay' or 'lesbian', like its a bad thing." and joni being who she is would probably have agreed (and realized that her statement came from the place in her that has internalized societal homophobia. and that would be cool. since she isn't here reading, WE are having the conversation, and i at least am thinking about my own internalized homophobia and other -isms and maybe some other people are too, and that's cool. has anyone read this far? ok, off the soap box for a few minutes, yael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 01:00:41 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC We may not be aware why something is a political act, but that doesn't mean it isn't one. Buy a pair of jeans and you could be supporting slavery. Buy food that originated in a country with a dictarship, and you are supporting that regime. Even tho the intention wasn't there, loving and having sex with a person of a different race or the same gender is a politcal act, having friends of different races is also. It isn't a weird concept at all, it seems obvious to me. an act is not the same as a thought. you may think that child slavery or dictatorships are anathema to you, but if you buy their goods, you act opposite to the way you think. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:10:17 EST From: Ricw1217@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC hello bob - was that a serious inquiry? regarding how your choice in vegetables couldn't possibly be political? i'm going to assume it was, just for argument sake. i believe the question involved zucchini and summer squash? let's see, just off the top of my head, if those vegetables are picked by migrant workers, whose poverty is a necessary evil in order to keep those crops coming in to load the shelves of your local stop and shop, because what spoiled american is going to want to wander the countryside, sleeping in the backs of trucks or the outbuildings in some barnyard for a few pennies...and what about those shelves, loaded by some minimum waged, illegal alien whose impovershment is also ABSOLUTELY necessary to maintaining the lifestyle that is represented by those ALL THAT FOOD!! (don't you ever walk down a grocery store aisle and marvel at all the choice? don't you think 80 or 90 percent of the rest of the world's population would be STUNNED by just one of our grocery stores?) because, again, what self respecting, sensible white bread american would want work at stop and shop, stocking the vegetable bins??? because to pay those people a living wage might cause the price of those squash and those zucchini to rise, and before you know it, some republican candidate would run on the "save our squash" ticket... or, another scenario, perhaps those squash and those zucchini were grown on a farm that has been in the same family for 100 years, who are being squeezed out by some farming franchise conglomerate whose tax breaks and shelters, make it possible for them to grow 10 times as much for 1/2 the price per bushel, driving the family farmer into selling off his land and auctioning off his equipment to pay the banks who loaned him the money he needed to buy the seeds... on and on and on. i think that is what colin meant. and debra. (if i may be so bold.) and i agree with them absolutely. everything is political. everything. even your delicious sounding meal... ric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 01:30:35 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC > i think that is what colin meant. it is. > and debra. (if i > may be so bold.) and i agree with them absolutely. > > everything is political. everything. even your delicious sounding meal... > > ric - -- bw colin TANTRA LHASA APSO (reg 1982) colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:54:23 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC Ric said: > i think that is what colin meant. and Colin replied: it is. more Ric: > and debra. (if i > may be so bold.) and i agree with them absolutely. > > everything is political. everything. even your delicious sounding meal... > and now me: Point well made. I agree one hundred percent. Too bogged down to cite examples, however, everyone's doing a fine job articulating so I will lay down my "me too" and leave it at that. btw, i understand why Joni will not say she is a feminist. After all, what feminism means to her may be completely different than what it means to me or you ... and the thing is, living into one's beliefs may be enough. Maybe she doesnt want to be placed into somebody else's notion of what feminism *is* or *is not*. Maybe she's just tired of defending every little utterance . (cant say that I blame her there, I dont know how she stands up to all the dissection). Who knows. Only Joni does. And there you have it. Indeed interesting to speculate all the same. are we getting antsy for Travelogue? are our hearts collectively sinking with the state of things globally? Just a thought...the list feels different these days. or maybe it's just me. Mags. nr and loving it : sam shepard's new book of short stories, great dream of heaven. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:02:43 -0800 (PST) From: hell Subject: Re: Re: Joni on politics NJC Ric wrote: > everything is political. everything. even your delicious > sounding meal... I disagree here, I'm afraid. I would alter your statement to say "everything CAN BE political", but not "IS political". It depends entirely on the motives of the person involved. If Bob is choosing between zucchini and summer squash on the basis of where it was picked, and whether the workers picking the vegetables have been taken advantage of etc., etc. then yes, the choice is political. But if he's choosing simply on the basis of flavour, ie. he prefers zucchini to squash, and ignores those other factors, then that choice has no political motive whatsoever. It's simply a matter of taste. I was at the supermarket last night, and was debating whether to buy strawberries or rockmelon. I chose strawberries, simply because they were cheaper. You might argue that they were cheaper because the workers used to pick them were underpaid, or whatever - and someone else might reject them on that basis - but that had absolutely no bearing on MY decision. It makes no difference that all those factors exist if the person making the choice gives them no significance. I "think" that's what Bob meant - correct me if I'm wrong! Hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 03:19:26 +0100 From: Christoffer Gudi Sommer-Gleerup Subject: Re: HappY Fecking Birthday Dawg!!!! (NJC) > I wrote: > > << I'll shoot Paz for not telling me about your birthday... >> > Then Bob Murphy responded: > Christina! You're sounding more and more like an American every day! I come back: Well, maybe us "danishes" are actually true killer machines...think about that Bob! > Christina > P.S. A report will come up tonight unless the tequila hits too hard... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:42:27 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on politics NJC Mags wrote: > Point well made. I agree one hundred percent. Too bogged down to cite examples, however, everyone's doing a >fine job articulating so I will lay down my "me too" and leave it at that. Well, I understand now more what was meant but it wasn't clear at all to me before. What I wonder is what are we as individuals supposed to do about it? Boycott all food and clothing? Feel unending guilt on a daily basis? I think even if all Republicans, who seemed to be blamed by some people for all the evils in the world, were all killed and turned into Soylent Green for people to eat, and their clothing taken and redistributed, would this solve all the injustice and inequity in the world? (by the way, who did people blame for all the evil in the world before Republicans came into being relatively few years ago in the historical scheme of things?) Here's another side of worker exploitation - the migrants who pick the harvest here in California (where a large amount of the produce for the U.S. is grown) are breaking down our border every day to get in. Their government is offering them nothing. Many studies show that most of the wages they make here are sent back home to Mexico or Guatamala or other countries and in fact, contribute substantially to their economy at home. Most all of them are making at least minimum wage by law, just the same as myself and many others have done when they started out working. I personally know three people, one a former boss, one a former boyfriend, and one a best friend. whose parents came from Mexico to work the farms here. They only worked in the farms a few years and very quickly went on to build their own successful, independent businesses. Their children all became professionals and very successful in one generation. Because of their minority status, all were given fully paid scholarships to top universities. In California, there are numerous social welfare programs to help them. They get free medical care, assisted housing, food stamps, preferential housing and business grants and loans and many other benefits to help them. In the meantime, people like me, just the dumb "white bread bourgeous" goes to work every day and lawfully pays my taxes that help people such as the migrant families without protesting and demonstrating. I won't feel guilt from people who are far better off then me financially trying to lay it on me. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:09:19 -0500 From: Yael Harlap Subject: chat time! NJC hey kidz- i don't know if you-all have been chatting but i haven't chatted with anyone for AGES. i'm procrastinating packing for my LA trip tomorrow, and waiting for my orangey nail polish to dry... come meet me in da chat room if you feel inclined! i'll linger in there until my nails are totally dry. :-) - -yael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:20:38 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Re: Joni on politics NJC > Ric wrote: > > everything is political. everything. even your > delicious > > sounding meal... --- hell replied: > I disagree here, I'm afraid. I would alter your > statement to say > "everything CAN BE political", but not "IS > political". Jeez, I wish I had said that - brief and to the point (as always, Hell) and it's just what I was thinking. If we had to worry about politics over everything we did, we'd all be afraid to move and we'd die of starvation. I have boycotted certain products at certain times for various reasons, but I'm not always convinced it's the best way of handling a situation. You have to weigh the potential good of the boycott against the potential loss to the people you're hoping to support. What we consider crappy working conditions and wages might be considered good in some places. It doesn't make exploiting others right, but I think we who live in free countries where we have the luxury of considering this kind of thing make assumptions that the rest of the world operates the same way - or should operate the same way. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #448 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)