From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #428 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, October 16 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 428 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper ["kakki" ] Re: Joni on the music biz (sjc) ["Brenda" ] Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper ["Brenda" Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper My randon reactions to the article - The first thing is that I had a good belly laugh at the Joni quotes! Then I thought a lot of other things. The royalties dispute with Geffen - we had a thread here long ago where I recall that Geffen sued her for her mechanical (?) royalties to try to re-coup her advance. I think it was Fred Simon and maybe some others who said that such royalties are off-limits legally and it was therefore dirty for Geffen to try to go after them (and he lost the legal fight, too.) On the other hand, do record companies fool around with the royalties owed to artists? A number of artists over the years claim they do. Is it deliberate, or is is just bad or sloppy (and sometimes arrogant) accounting practices? Mostly the latter. Some artists also may see their songs or albums for sale in foreign countries and think to themselves "the record company never paid me for those!" not realizing that they are often "pirated" product, over which the record company has little or no control, especially in those countries where "pirating" is legal. Is Joni crotchety? Yeah! But it reminds me of what I've always heard about growing older. People cut to the chase, get more real and don't give a damn so much anymore with telling it like they think it is, regardless of whether it is correct or not. Does Joni need to get out more? Yes, I have thought so for awhile, now. Maybe she should join in on the list - LOL Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:45:45 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: was Joni on the music biz...now pop music history (njc) Sorry for the me, too post but you are right, right on Murphy! Kakki > My guess is that Joni says these things, but that she's really not all that > much like the way she comes across in interviews like this. (The people on > this list who have written about meeting her always have wonderful stories to > tell.) It's just that that is the way the media want Joni to be -- the bitter > boomer former folkie. > > Let's face it, that is the way the media will continue to position and > portray Joni until "Travelogue" is a hit. Then she will once again go through > the whole star maker thing she's been through before and has written about so > eloquently. But this time she will be older and wiser -- and ready -- and she > will have won the adoration of millions of more people throughout the world. > And maybe this time, with all her new-found respect . . . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 00:05:42 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Reuters message boards reactions It seems to me that - even on this list - there have been a few adverse reactions to the news release that seem to take what is reported as a correct reflection of what JM had to say, and to treat it as having been in context. To that I would reply that I try very hard not to jump to such conclusions - even when my gut reaction is emotional one way or the other. I take almost all such stories with a grain of salt - in my observations, they are rarely of high standards of fidelity. For example, I doubt that Joni has "written off" Sting, Morissette and Crow (whatever it means to "write them off"). Still, such an assertion can get a rise out of the reader. I will cut JM some slack on this one, until I see or hear the whole thing in context (I will at least read the RS interview - it was linked here, RS is a rag, I wouldn't have read it otherwise..... ;-) Bob S ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 00:06:17 -0400 From: coyoterick@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz Hi Emily: I just wrote privately to my buddy Clark how disappointed and embarrassed I am with JM for the statements she made about the music biz. Thanks, Brenda, for the article comparison. It didn't change my feelings much, but I am glad the RS article was more flattering. I wonder, however, if it makes much difference to JM. She doesn't seem to care. When I think of JM sitting in her Bel Air mansion spewing such insulting comments about the hand that has fed her, I get real agitated. When I think of my musician pals and others relentlessly/devotedly pursuing careers in various fields of entertainment to limited financial avail, I am appalled by the ingratitude JM shows for the business that bought her that mansion and her shopping sprees at agnes b. My friends (entertainment seeking and others) would kill for 1/10 of the success JM has enjoyed. This is an industry that HAS embraced her work. Let's face it -- her longevity has not been based on her record sales, but her enduring, remarkable talent. Which is why we are here. As I rearrange my asbestos suit, I want to be clear I am not defending the music biz. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion one way or the other. What I am saying is one should always recognize their blessings. Especially when they are as rich as those bestowed upon our JM. Show some gratitude, my friend. With huge regrets, Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:59:45 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Bali (njc) >>There were a lot of Al Qaeda sightings in my own country and some people who are not in the country where I am may dismiss it right away, but the psychological terror is with us in the Asian region, even if we go on our lives every day.<< this is terrible, please stay safe joseph... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:58:59 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz (sjc) On 16 Oct 2002 at 0:06, coyoterick@aol.com wrote: > Hi Emily: > > I just wrote privately to my buddy Clark how disappointed and > embarrassed I am with JM for the statements she made about the music > biz. > > Thanks, Brenda, for the article comparison. It didn't change my > feelings much, but I am glad the RS article was more flattering. I > wonder, however, if it makes much difference to JM. She doesn't seem > to care. > I agree Rick...it doesn't change my feelings about her complaints either. However, it is good to know she wasn't still harping about the Geffen stuff and to see the granddaughter comment in context. > As I rearrange my asbestos suit, I want to be clear I am not defending > the music biz. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion one > way or the other. What I am saying is one should always recognize > their blessings. Especially when they are as rich as those bestowed > upon our JM. > I think there are certain things for which the music industry should be defended and even commended. Because the music industry is not just major labels and stolen royalties. It's also indies, pirate radio, fanzines, raves, public access video shows and fan sites. It's No Depression and Urb Magazine; WBGO and WOXY (97X in Cincy); Ubiquity, Luaka Bop and Roadrunner; and Black Lily at the Five Spot in Philly, Peabody's Down Under and the Bridge School Benefit. And it's the people who work in it. Very few of them (including those at the major labels) get the fat cat salaries that are always pointed to and complained about. Most people who work in it, do it because they love music. Brenda n.p.: Coldplay - "Amsterdam" - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:37:44 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper On 15 Oct 2002 at 20:44, kakki wrote: > > On the other hand, do record companies fool around with the royalties > owed to artists? A number of artists over the years claim they do. > Is it deliberate, or is is just bad or sloppy (and sometimes arrogant) > accounting practices? Mostly the latter. Some artists also may see > their songs or albums for sale in foreign countries and think to > themselves "the record company never paid me for those!" not realizing > that they are often "pirated" product, over which the record company > has little or no control, especially in those countries where > "pirating" is legal. > There are things for which I will defend record companies but this is not one of them. Yes, there is some bad and sloppy accounting, however at a lot of companies, there is a systematic and deliberate effort to apply more things to the artist as recoupable than what should be charged to them. The higher that recoupable balance, the more records they have to sell to be paid royalties. Some of the things I've seen artists charged for are nothing short of outrageous. Appliances, spa visits, electronics. NBA center court tickets. There are also lots of records sold which are classified as "free goods," meaning the copy is supposed to be given away to retailers for promotion, however the label gets paid (even though it is supposed to be "free") and hides it from the artist. For accounting purposes, free goods are treated as non-royalty accruing copies even though retailers sell them. This practice is so widespread that there is a boilerplate contract clause to cover it up. In most contracts, artist cannots audit manufacturing. So they cannot find out how many CD's were produced and weigh that against what is reported to have been sold. I saw firsthand the practices which were nothing short of deception. I saw it at major labels, an imprint of a major and at indies. It happens at a lot (if not a majority) of the companies. And the small group of people responsible for the execution of these practices hold the prevailing belief that if the artists can't afford an audit they'll never know what has been improperly charged to them or what their true sales figures are. Brenda n.p.: Air - "All I Need" - -------------------------------------------- "Radio has no future" - Lord Kelvin, 1897 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:50:45 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper Glad you stepped in, Brenda. I believe you and agree with you and don't want to defend such practices. But haven't a a lot of these practices were being weeded out in the past 10-15 years due to litigation and investigations and crackdowns by law enforcement and regulatory agencies? Or maybe I am being too naive or hopeful and some companies are perhaps putting up a front that they are going to "reform" and then go right back to their old ways again? Also, often the bottom line is that it is almost impossible to dredge up all the old records (which are often long destroyed) or prohibitvely expensive to find and review them all, so a true accounting is in many cases not possible, especially for artists who want to review their accounts from 3o-40 years ago. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:01:48 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper Ack - sorry for my typos - long day and strong antibiotics ;-) Had another thought wondering if the record companies may have to change the way they keep their records to some extent (and maybe some have already) because what I've seen in the past is that it is very difficult to do an audit for an individual artist, especially one who has been with a company for a long time. Audits are often made more difficult when the company has gone through a number of ownership changes over the years and records are lost or purged or hard to find because of the constant change in database, filing, recording, storage systems, etc. Some speculate that the record companies like having such "logistical difficulties" on their side in royalty disputes. My bottom line - I think a number of artists have been ripped off or perhaps misled to some degree or another. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:27:29 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper (njc) On 15 Oct 2002 at 22:50, kakki wrote: > Glad you stepped in, Brenda. I believe you and agree with you and > don't want to defend such practices. But haven't a a lot of these > practices were being weeded out in the past 10-15 years due to > litigation and investigations and crackdowns by law enforcement and > regulatory agencies? Or maybe I am being too naive or hopeful and > some companies are perhaps putting up a front that they are going to > "reform" and then go right back to their old ways again? Also, often > the bottom line is that it is almost impossible to dredge up all the > old records (which are often long destroyed) or prohibitvely expensive > to find and review them all, so a true accounting is in many cases not > possible, especially for artists who want to review their accounts > from 3o-40 years ago. > > Kakki None of the practices I'm referring to have been weeded out. Not even close. I've been in the business for just about 15 years and I have seen no change whatsoever in these types of things or the attitude toward doing it. Again it's not most of the people who work at labels - it's the few who have access to what hits the books and how. It's disgusting and it detracts from the hard work that many company employees give passionately and genuinely in support of music. As far as financial records go, if the companies opened the books on manufacturing, all kind of snakes would crawl out. And those records have been digitally recorded for some time now. And those that aren't digital are in warehouse files. Witch cases from 30-40 years ago, I would say the best those artists could hope for is to show proof that records were sold where it was claimed they weren't. (For instance, they could check for royalities paid to producers or publishers.) A number of companies have in the past released records in territories where they either did not have rights or where they told the artists there would be no release. Proving that there was a release of some kind could lead to a financial settlement. It is very expensive and if there is a discrepency found above a certain percentage, the label has to bear that cost. So they fight tooth and nail (or settle) to avoid audits because they know in most cases, they're going to surpass that percentage. Brenda n.p.: - -------------------------------------------- "Radio has no future" - Lord Kelvin, 1897 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:21:58 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper (njc) Brenda wrote: > None of the practices I'm referring to have been weeded out. Not even close. I've > been in the business for just about 15 years and I have seen no change whatsoever > in these types of things or the attitude toward doing it. That is freaking amazing. I really thought some changes had occurred over time. >Again it's not most of the people who work at labels - it's the few who have access to what hits the books and > how. It's disgusting and it detracts from the hard work that many company > employees give passionately and genuinely in support of music. Yep, it sure does. I spent six months on-site at a label once and saw a bit of the cold, hard and somewhat ruthless business element juxtaposed against the people who you knew were there because they just truly loved music and wanted to promote and support the artists. Have to hand it to you and others like you for surviving through it, Brenda! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:37:55 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper (njc) On 15 Oct 2002 at 23:01, kakki wrote: > Ack - sorry for my typos - long day and strong antibiotics ;-) > > Had another thought wondering if the record companies may have to > change the way they keep their records to some extent (and maybe some > have already) because what I've seen in the past is that it is very > difficult to do an audit for an individual artist, especially one who > has been with a company for a long time. Audits are often made more > difficult when the company has gone through a number of ownership > changes over the years and records are lost or purged or hard to find > because of the constant change in database, filing, recording, storage > systems, etc. Some speculate that the record companies like having > such "logistical difficulties" on their side in royalty disputes. My > bottom line - I think a number of artists have been ripped off or > perhaps misled to some degree or another. > I think any artist contemplating an audit has to take action immediately after a successful release and before the dust clears - like the Dixie Chicks did (a huge part of their fight was Sony's lack of disclosure on manufacturing, foreign distribution and record club sales). Coming back a few years later is hard, although I recall Janet Jackson doing it successfully. Brenda - -------------------------------------------- "Radio has no future" - Lord Kelvin, 1897 ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #428 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)