From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #409 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, October 6 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 409 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Gage's mother got married - njc [vince ] Re: Fw: All Hands on Deck: Iraq Vote Imminent - 800 number to theCapitol (NJC!) [vince ] Re: All Hands on Deck. Iraq vote Imminent - 800 number to the Capitol (NJC!) [Susan Guzzi ] RE: Fw: Fw: All Hands on Deck. Iraq vote Imminent - 800 number totheCapitol (NJC!) ["Victor Johnson" ] Fw: njc personal attacks ["kasey simpson" ] Victor/njc ["kasey simpson" ] njc personal attacks [vince ] Re: a new Joni page (for me) [Mags N Brei ] Re: Gage's mother got married - njc [vince ] RE: Fw: All Hands on Deck. Iraq vote Imminent - 800 number to theCapitol (NJC!) [Mags N Brei Subject: Gage's mother got married - njc I am sending this to my friends on the Joni Mitchell Discussion List and a few other friends - I can't keep writing this over and over again, I can only do it once, and anyone in the JMDL who thinks I write boring drivel, delete now and read no further. I have just returned from dancing on the stage at a local bar to Linkin Park's "In the End" and now you know that really is not like me... well, dancing is, and singing along in the crowd is, but not me singing the song while dancing on stage... It would take me 6 months of daily sessions with a therapist to unpack every emotion that I felt today/tonight watching Amy, Gage's mom, marry Mike and then celebrating at the reception and then following the party to the local night spot (and it really was the first time in 22 years of living in Greenville that I have ever been to this bar, or any Greenville bar, after midnight - well, after 10 pm, actually, and only the 2nd time in a local bar after 8 pm). Amy was the most beautiful bride - really - she is very elegant and wore the most classically stunningly simple and beautiful wedding gown - and Gage in his tux, can't describe, he looked like he was born to wear a tuxedo... and he and I together, I didn't wear my tux but I wore my next best set of formal evening wear and we looked so very good together! And Gage gave me the ultimate compliment of being my best buddy, by my side, from the moment I arrived at the church until he left the reception to spend the night with one of his other grandparents. And I was *not* feeling that it was too bad it was not my son marrying Amy, hell, Jeremy fucked that over a long time ago by being such an asshole to Amy and Gage. I love Amy dearly and I was near tears so many times today because she was so radiantly happy to be marrying Mike - and I really adore Mike, he was been so good to Amy, so good to both my grandsons, Gage and Brady, and on top of that, he had the class to select Neil Young's "Harvest Moon" as the wedding couple's song - what more can you want? I love Mike - even though he is a Michigan State fan - -:) He has even left Gage be a Michigan fan for my sake, not working on him when I'm not around! All I have wanted for years is to see Amy happy, to see Gage have a daddy, to see Amy and Gage and Brady with someone who is so good to them - - if anything has stayed my hand from making any decisions about what I do next, it has been my desire to let nothing interfere with this day, to let this day be as glorious and wonderful as it was. And you know what - I couldn't even get through the reception line, I was so choked up with joy - Amy looked at me and said, "don't cry" because she knew how happy I was because she was so happy - I lost my sons a long time ago but I have had this beautiful daughter and my beautiful grandsons and now my beautiful new son - but this is a small town, and my entire past was at the wedding reception, except of course my ex-wife and my sons and my former partner, but more than enough people commented on them to more than make up for their absence, and for all the shit that happened when my marriage dissolved, the mistreatment that I suffered from the church, I had enough people there commenting about that, and about every aspect of my life, what a wonderful grandfather I am even though I am a (fill in the blank) and how I was a part of the family even though I am a (fill in the blank) and I danced with Gage's cousin Aubrey several times (she's 9) and as usual I was the local Pied Piper since all the kids love me - kids and dogs love me, if nothing else existed in the world my life would be perfect - but then I take time with each of the kids, talking to them, teaching them dance moves, having Pokemon card packets in my pocket, and this new card craze, can't spell it, but I had the cards... and I danced with all the various female relatives who populate the extended family of divorced and remarried and redivorced and re re married people - it gets way complex, I sat at the wedding with Gage's half-brother Brady's paternal grandmother and her boyfriend, and sat at the reception with Amy's father and his third wife, as well as Amy's mother's sister, chatted with Amy's mother's second husband and Amy's father's second (but not current) wife - and all I head over and over was it was just too bad that I am a (fill in the blank) because if I wasn't a (fill in the blank) I would be the perfect husband for name-your-family-member or that of course the church wouldn't have treated me so badly if I hadn't been a (fill in the blank) and while some people cared then that I was a (fill in the blank) they don't care now that I am a (fill in the blank) - and it was such a shame what my ex-wife did and how she kept my sons from me because I am a (fill in the blank) and how my ex-wife and son opposed my having anything to do with Gage because I am a (fill in the blank) but what a wonderful grandfather and family member I have been even though I am a (fill in the blank) and why do I have to be a (fill in the blank) because then we could all be so happy... I'm such a fun guy, such a good grandparent, such a great dancer even though I am a (fill in the blank) - -- and by the way, where is Pete, how is Pete, do i still work for Pete, my life is forever linked with Pete... and I was a really good minister even though I am a (fill in the blank) and the best preacher anyone ever heard, and the church shouldn't have done to me what it did because I am a (fill in the blank)... ... and the reception's penultimate dance was me on the dance floor with Amy, her cousin, her half sister, and a close friend, and me, singing and dancing to We Are Family, the ultimate dance was me crying while Mike and Amy danced to Harvest Moon again, and then I was prevailed upon to travel to the local bar and continue the wedding celebration - why not, and what does it say about me in small town life when I walk into the bar at midnight, the dj sees me, and instantly plays Eminem's "Without Me" for me - I guess we all know an awful lot about each other in this little town - danced on the floor for a while with who knows who, don't know if anyone was dancing with anyone, we were all just dancing together - some guy, kind of a young Kevin Spacey look a like, one of the groom's men whom I did not know, kind of made a point of dancing by me and looked at me a few times - curiosity or interest I do not know, and since he said nothing, I didn't, I had no intention of saying the wrong thing to some guy, so I went into the booth to thank the dj for the Eminem, and he asked if I wanted Linkin Park (the dj knows me well - this is a small town) and I went out on the floor and decided to do Linkin Park's "In the End" on stage with several members of Amy's family and it was a stunning rendition of the song - We rapped and sang the words like we *were* Linkin Park and got some salutes because, frankly, some of the kids didn't think someone of my advanced years would know not only all the words to the song but the appropriate dance steps and arm movements. And then I stayed on stage and we did several other songs (knowing rap paid off) and then one of Amy's cousins says, "Why do you have to be a (fill in the blank), why can't you be straight, I want you for my step father." Why can't I be. Why am I what I am. Why can't I be what people want. Why is there always something there to remind me (sing it, Rita Pavone...) Everything that changed in my life when I got in touch too late with my honest self and realized I am a (fill in the blank). I try to live my life with as little reference as possible to being a (fill in the blank) and I get no relief - it wears on the soul. It wears on the spirit. It wears on my emotions. I live without Pete, the person I love because the things that we could fix between us, he won't take part in fixing, because of his personal pathology that has him doing something else while he loves me - he loves me, he just wants to do other things and "live without love" because he crumbles under the pressure of being a responsible partner so while I may be a (fill in the blank), I actually do nothing that a (fill in the blank) does, I guess I am a (fill in the blank) in actuality but not in action, and certainly, with love, and I might as well have a fucking scarlet letter branded on my forehead that says no mater what I do, no matter how much time goes by, no matter how I live, I cannot escape even for a few hours and just dwell in happiness for those who I love - what is the point of this? now that I have seen Gage's mother get married, now I know that my grandson, both my grandsons, have a daddy whom they love, who loves them, everything is in good hands. Gage's mother got married. The emotions I feel are so complex. Where do I go from here. Like Robert Redford's character in The Candidate, "what do I next?" Especially when I know there is nothing else I want that will ever come way, so there is nothing else ... in the end... the dj played that song for me for a reason - I sang it on stage (on stage! me!) for a reason... It starts with one thing (One thing) I don't know why It doesn't even matter how hard you try Keep that in mind I designed this rhyme To explain in due time All I know (All I know) Time is a valuable thing Watch it fly by as the pendulum swings Watch it count down to the end of the day The clock ticks life away It's so unreal (It's so unreal) Didn't look out below Watch the time go right out the window Trying to hold on, but didn't even know Wasted it all just to watch you go (Watch you go) I kept everything inside and even though I tried It all fell apart What it meant to me will eventually Be a memory of a time when (I tried so hard) I tried so hard And got so far But in the end It doesn't even matter I had to fall To lose it all But in the end It doesn't even matter One thing, I don't know why It doesn't even matter how hard you try Keep that in mind I designed this rhyme, to remind myself how I tried so hard (I tried so hard) In spite of the way you were mocking me Acting like I was part of your property Remembering all the times you fought with me I'm surprised it got so far (It got so far) Things aren't the way they were before You wouldn't even recognize me anymore Not that you knew me back then But it all comes back to me In the end (In the end) You kept everything inside and even though I tried It all fell apart What it meant to me will eventually Be a memory of a time when I (tried so hard) I tried so hard And got so far But in the end It doesn't even matter I had to fall To lose it all But in the end It doesn't even matter I've put my trust in you Pushed as far as I can go For all this There's only one thing you should know I've put my trust in you Pushed as far as I can go For all this There's only one thing you should know I tried so hard And got so far But in the end It doesn't even matter I had to fall To lose it all But in the end It doesn't even matter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 03:51:50 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: Fw: All Hands on Deck: Iraq Vote Imminent - 800 number to theCapitol (NJC!) "You had a weekend of love and peace. I've had a lifetime of freedom in a country that has had to fight many wars. Why not get a group of JM listers and fly to Iraq? Play Sadam JM, and tell him you want peace. Then if he listens, and you come back alive, then call Washington and tell them how easy it is." This is very unfair. Why doesn't everyone who supports Bush and war do the right thing - don't expect to send other people to fight wars you support - you enlist, you go wage war, you go do it, don't sit at home and say send others, and no damn excuses - you want war, you fight it yourself. No excuses. Quit sending others. Talk is cheap. You want it, you do it yourself,. If you won't do it yourself, then don't sit at home all cozy and send others in your place. Go and kill and be prepared to be killed. Do it your name, not in mine. And do it yourself. And when the thousand reasons are listed that you can't do it yourself, knowing that you sit at home, listening to Joni Mitchell and expect other people to kill and be killed while you sit in all the comforts of home and listen to Joni Mitchell. That there are those of us who think there are other ways, better ways, to respond to real situations in the world, we don't deserve the ridicule and the unfair cheap shots that we got in the paragraph that I quoted. Vince, father of a Marine, a Marine who may be an asshole to his former girlfriend and child, but still is my son, the son that people who have no intention of putting their lives on the line for their beliefs, they want my son to kill and be killed while they sit at home - you want sacrifice, sacrifice yourself, not my son. I believe there are other ways that do not involve a war that would kill the sons and daughters of many people on all sides. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 09:09:32 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Gage's mother got married - njc I was deeply moved by your post. I understand that injustice you spoke of. One day those people will undertsand it too and feel shame. bwcolin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 01:55:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: All Hands on Deck. Iraq vote Imminent - 800 number to the Capitol (NJC!) Breathe. Take a breath Susan, I keep telling myself ... Okay I can not keep my mouth shut on this! How could such an innocuous post as Claud's and Brenda's bring such ire and sarcasm and get you to draw your sword so quickly here?! Kasey, just a suggestion, choose your battles more wisely. And that's pretty much the same thing we or I am saying about the Bush administration's plans for Iraq. This is nothing more than a vendetta for his father's failures. All here are welcome to state or convey their opinions, but Kasey, - Brenda for one was defending you and others who may not be opposed to the war. And Claudia simply gave an alternative, in that the public can be a part of the process - KASEY THAT IS Democracy! Hope you ARE enjoying it! While I am no fan of Saddam Hussein, or his regime, I also can not bare to see the massacre of the innocents taking place either. If you remember we had that here on 9/11 ... and it really wasn't very fair to all the victims, their families and Americans in general. The successes of Afghanistan were based widely on a coalition of many countries. We have almost no support for this particular scenario. Although that is not always necessary. There has been a severe crippling of the monies and refuge for terrorism's purpose. But that battle is far from over, I would agree. But I find it hard to justify war in this particular case. YES we fought wars that needed to be fought, such as Revolutionary, Civil, WWI & WWII. BUt Granada, Viet Nam and Iraq here and now? Come on! And you know the thing that paricularly pisses me off here is your mocking of us, because we used our beautiful experience at Jonifest as an example. There was no antagonism or spite in either Claudia's or Brendas posts. But because we expressd some peace, love and understanding - which by the way you could use a good dose of, you fire it like a weapon right back at us. How cruel and cold. None of us were throwing any flames - oh make no mistake I am now! Yes Brenda you are very pragmatic and I always appreciate what you have to say, your knowledge stuns me. And Claudia my friend, your heart is soo big and you are a most beautiful human being. I thank both of you again for your touch and imprint in this community. To the rest of the list I am sorry for not being able to keep it shut! But lately, becasue we (liberals) are in the majority here (JMDL), we take an ass kicking. Seems I remember when we were the minority (political arena)in the 80's and early 90's we took one as well. We may not use violence to fight, but damn it we will fight for our side as well. We can not be intimidated into silence - and clearly I am not. PEACE Susan Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 04:59:33 -0400 From: ljirvin@adelphia.net Subject: Today's Library Links: October 6 On October 6 the following item was published: 1998: "Joni Mitchell captures perfection with latest" - Hamilton Spectator (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/981006hs.cfm - -------- Can you type? http://www.jmdl.com/typing/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 08:22:46 -0500 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Fw: All Hands on Deck. Iraq vote Imminent - 800 number to the Capitol (NJC!) Susan, Take a deeper breath. It was easy to post as I did. Yes Brenda did defend the "minority" voice, and would defend my rights. I still ask HOW? I came on this list only a few weeks ago and have read many post about Bush. You said some wars we had to fight including WWI, and WWII. Tell me how long we waited before getting into those wars? How far did it get? To say this is retaliatory for his father is a childish and uninformed statement. Yes, I do enjoy democracy, of course I'm also very aware of the price that has been paid, and may need to be paid. I'm so very glad you had such a wonderful experience at the fest, and I'm glad you live in a country that affords you freedoms to do that. I have chosen my battles. It is not easy to send your relatives into battles. To see the worry, and fear in your sisters eyes as her only son goes. But I have read the news articles, I have watched the reports, and if we go to war, and if my family must fight this war, it is because it must be fought, and talks, and love and JM cannot change it. Take a deeper breath of this free air Susan, and remember it is sarcastic patriots like me, and my family that fought wars to bring it to you. Kasey Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 08:32:32 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Jonifest 2002 CD Tree - njc **How sad to see such bile and venom on a nice list like this. ** You're right Bob...and I've had a change of heart. I'm now extending my 'grovel' offer to the Irish as well. ;~) Bob NP: Pearl Weisberg, "Night In The City" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 08:45:19 -0500 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Fw: Fw: All Hands on Deck: Iraq Vote Imminent - 800 number to theCapitol (NJC! This is very unfair. So was 9/11 Go and kill and be prepared to be killed. Do it your name, not in mine. And do it yourself. If I were to go it would be for ALL Americans. And make no mistake about it if ask I would go, and yes freedom, and peace, and love are worth dieing for. That there are those of us who think there are other ways, better ways, to respond to real situations in the world, we don't deserve the ridicule and the unfair cheap shots that we got in the paragraph that I quoted. What other way was suggested Vince? What was said was to spread what you had a the fest to the rest of the world. I said go ahead and try it. Then call Washington and tell them how easy it was. Tell me your solution oh wise and all knowing Vince. You call Bush and tell him how to resolve this. - you want sacrifice, sacrifice yourself, not my son. How narrow minded can you be. This is about all of us. Your son, your fest, your rights. Our country, our freedoms, our rights. I have a nephew also in the Marines, and a niece in the navy, and my fear and pride are high levels. There are many other fathers, and mothers with kids in the service, that aren't assholes to their partners or kids, so I'm real sorry Bush can't put this on hold for your son. Maybe once he is discharged you will support Bush, after all then this whole thing won't be about you any more. Kasey Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 9:1:14 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: Fw: All Hands on Deck. Iraq vote Imminent - 800 number to theCapitol (NJC!) But I have read the news articles, I have watched > the reports, and if we go to war, and if my family must fight this war, it is > because it must be fought, and talks, and love and JM cannot change it. > Take a deeper breath of this free air Susan, and remember it is sarcastic > patriots like me, and my family that fought wars to bring it to you. > I believe that talking, love, and music(JM included) can change things. I was at the NE jonifest and it definately changed me in many ways. I attended a festival a week later that changed me even more, a festival where a friend of mine died from a heartattack while I was playing on stage. I felt the energy that is created when 80 people gather together or when several hundred all gather together, thinking feeling the same vibe sharing love and music. It is real, very real and is nothing to knock. I feel that energy everyday. I have been through hell but have never stopped believing in dreams and love and the power of music. If enough people believe the same thing then they will make a difference. Air has been here for thousands and millions of years and does not belong to anyone. Victor in Asheville - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:04:05 -0500 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Fw: Fw: All Hands on Deck: Iraq Vote Imminent - 800 number to the Capitol (NJC! Brenda, First and foremost, I did not mean to address you personally. Please forgive me if I have in any way offended you. I used your word "fiercely" to make a point. It was/is hard to support war. But once I made that choice, based on reports I had read or heard it seems, at least on this list, that it is easy for me and I must love war. Unfounded half truths have been reported here, case in point Vince's' tirade on the Dashel speech, so when this 800 number was given, I simply wanted to respond with the other side. I have since received several post blasting my wording. You post is the only one to contain reason. So please accept my sincere apology if I have hurt or angered you in any way. Now as for this post, thank you for additional information. I will read it and I do agree with every thing you've said here. You are an intelligent, well informed person. I have based my choice on the information I have read, which is to say new information, true information could change my mind. Again, I thank you for both your post, and am sorry for any antagonism sent your way. Kasey On 5 Oct 2002 at 21:01, kasey simpson wrote: > And just how would you "fiercely" defend that right? I do support > Bush on this. That choice is not some need to kick a-- rather a > resignation that some people can not be "talked" with. You had a > weekend of love and peace. I've had a lifetime of freedom in a > country that has had to fight many wars. Why not get a group of JM > listers and fly to Iraq? Play Sadam JM, and tell him you want peace. > Then if he listens, and you come back alive, then call Washington and > tell them how easy it is. I would prefer peace, I would prefer love, > but history has shown us that is not always possible. I will place the > call, and let them know I support Bush, > Kasey > I'm feeling some antagonism in your response and I'm not sure why.....You quoted me so I take it your comment was addressed to me. I'm glad that you will place your call. That's why I wrote my email to begin with, to encourage anyone on the list who supports the war. It is democracy in action. I can fiercely defend the right without fighting. By being a citizen who participates in democratic and political processes and who speaks for a diversity of views and fully supports the expression of those views with the conviction of my belief in democracy, I feel that I am fiercely defending that right. By doing what I can in my work to lobby for media diversity, I'm defending that right. It's not fierce by its action; it's fierce by its conviction. I believe in democracy. I agree that some people cannot be talked with. I am not anti-war. However this war is NOT a defense of democracy. It is about domination. If you doubt that, read the "Defense Planning for Guidance" documents produced by the Office of the Secretary of Defense in 1992 (Cheney) and 2002 (Rumsfeld - basically Cheney by proxy) and the "Defense Strategy for the 1990's" also written by Cheney. I also recommend reading Rumsfeld's "Transforming the Military" published in the May/June issue of Foreign Affairs. This war is not another front in the war on terrorism; it is the culmination of a plan many years old. And as some Senate members asked this week during their remarks on the resolution, how are we going to pay for this war? In his radio address, President Bush pledged US support for rebuilding Iraq after a conflict. Nevermind the fact that he ran on a platform of not engaging in nation building - something that I know my fellow Republicans in my district considered important, how are we going to pay for this rebuilding after Saddam is gone? What will this mean for our relationships with our allies? Will we lose the support of countries (like Egypt) which have been critical in the war on terrorism? Are we giving nations with which we have tenuous relations at best (like China) or with which we've had hostile relations in the near past (like Russia) an issue on which to unite against us? Will most of the free world think that we are the bully on the block who needs to be stopped? Our President is taking a position that is not only in opposition to the UN security council (and permanent members China, Russia and France) but also undermines the UN generally. As I hear from my friends in Washington, even the multilateralists in the Bush administration think that this is unwise. What do you mean "a weekend of love and peace?" If you're talking about the fest, I didn't go, so I'm not sure what that has to do with what I wrote or the war on Iraq. This is not simply an issue of war or peace and I don't see how it can be reduced to those terms. Especially when the balance and security of a volatile region of the world (and the lives of millions of people who live there) are at stake. Our national security is dependent upon global security. Will a war in Iraq destabilize the region and thereby lead to reduced global security? Until the answer to that question is no, I'm against it - not because I'm a peacenik, but because I'm a pragmatist. Brenda n.p.: Dexter Gordon - "Darn That Dream" - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 9:12:39 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: Fw: Fw: All Hands on Deck: Iraq Vote Imminent - 800 number to theCapitol (NJC! > What other way was suggested Vince? What was said was to spread what > you had a the fest to the rest of the world. I said go ahead and try it. > Then > call Washington and tell them how easy it was. Tell me your solution oh wise > and all knowing Vince. You call Bush and tell him how to resolve this. First of all Vince did not make it to the NE Fest but I hope he will in the future. And second, I am spreading what we had at this fest to the rest of the world. I begin working on it tomorrow. Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:13:13 -0500 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Fw: Fw: All Hands on Deck. Iraq vote Imminent - 800 number to theCapitol (NJC!) Victor, The power of love is tremendous. It has even been documented as healing. I do not mean to cheapen what you felt. But, you must understand that it was a group of like minded people. The consecration of energy focused on the same goal. That is not the case in war. I wish love could stop wars. I wish what you had/have would spread to all four corners of the world. But it has not, and will not. That is when wars take place. I have repeated several times here that it was not an easy choice for me to make, that doesn't seem to mater. I respect what you feel, I just feel differently. Kasey But I have read the news articles, I have watched > the reports, and if we go to war, and if my family must fight this war, it is > because it must be fought, and talks, and love and JM cannot change it. > Take a deeper breath of this free air Susan, and remember it is sarcastic > patriots like me, and my family that fought wars to bring it to you. > I believe that talking, love, and music(JM included) can change things. I was at the NE jonifest and it definately changed me in many ways. I attended a festival a week later that changed me even more, a festival where a friend of mine died from a heartattack while I was playing on stage. I felt the energy that is created when 80 people gather together or when several hundred all gather together, thinking feeling the same vibe sharing love and music. It is real, very real and is nothing to knock. I feel that energy everyday. I have been through hell but have never stopped believing in dreams and love and the power of music. If enough people believe the same thing then they will make a difference. Air has been here for thousands and millions of years and does not belong to anyone. Victor in Asheville - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnsonGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 09:21:48 -0400 From: vince Subject: njc personal attacks kasey simpson wrote: > Maybe once he is > discharged > you will support Bush, after all then this whole thing won't be about you > any more. > You know nothing about the people whom you flip off with your sarcasm. Your little one liners to Brenda, Susan, me, whoever, are oh so clever. You are making a very serious charge of hypocrisy to me, as you have made it to others, including your little cheap shot that "you* and *your family* brought freedom to the rest of us, when you wrote to Susan that "sarcastic patriots like me, and my family that fought wars to bring it [free air] to you." I suspect you have NO CLUE as to who in this forum has been in the military, who has not, and who has done what, but you give us the classic cheap, cheap shot about what *you* have done. And frankly, the issue of response to terrorism, including war, deserves more than clever bon mots of sarcasm. This is not a game. This is life and death. And there are members of this forum - not myself by the way - you spent September 11th choking in the dust of the collapsed towers. This is very real to all of us because of those connections. And you presume without knowledge of whom you are speaking to, to suggest that my politics are affected my self-interest. Well, there are a lot of people on these boards who know me and whether they agree with me on any certain thing or not,. they can evaluate your accusation for what it is worth. You have been a member here a very short time. That is fine; we were all new once, and the JMDL is strengthened, blessed, and grows with new people. But for someone so new, I find the commentary on other JMDLers to be, well, unusual. You have political positions you wish to advance, by all means, do so, a lot of us, me including, comment on political matters. But you might wish to avoid the personal attacks and cheap shots on people whom you do not know - or even on people you do - and stick to the issues without the personal comments. This is not a forum for the personal attack, for the lumping of people into stereotypical categories and making attacks. Within any given subject, we have a broad, broad range of opinions that are as diverse as a prism and reflect as many points along the spectrum as possible. I have learned much from the differing perspectives and insights of others. People here are real, varied, and diverse, and it has been respect for one another, love for another, that has allowed us to go through the most difficult of issues with free-ranging discussions. Vince NPIMH: the last verse of "Woodstock" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 9:26:59 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: Fw: Fw: All Hands on Deck. Iraq vote Imminent - 800 number totheCapitol (NJC!) But, you must > understand that it was a group of like minded people. The consecration > of energy focused on the same goal. That is not the case in war. I wish > love could stop wars. I wish what you had/have would spread to all > four corners of the world. But it has not, and will not. Well, I believe that love will change the world. It is never too late. That is when > wars take place. I have repeated several times here that it was not an > easy choice for me to make, that doesn't seem to mater. I respect > what you feel, I just feel differently. > Kasey I haven't seen any thing written that said you couldn't make your own choice. There seems to be a fundamental disagreement so just let it be and don't make it so personal. Just accept that not everyone feels the same way, but don't knock their beliefs. Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 09:30:02 -0400 From: vince Subject: a new Joni page (for me) "By the time we got to Woodstock we were half a million strong And everywhere there was song and celebration And I dreamed I saw the bombers riding shotgun in the sky And they were turning into butterflies above our nation..." - - Woodstock - Joni Mitchell 1969 - Looking for the lyrics quote, I came upon http://www.geocities.com/musica_holm/joni.html I wish I read Spanish better! Some fascinating commentary (as far as I can read) and great pictures, great other stuff, some of which I hadn't seen before! Anyone have any knowledge of this site, or can contact the owner of the site and make some contact? Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:28:45 -0500 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Fw: njc personal attacks Vince, You started the cheap shots. If you expect me to lie down and take it you are sadly mistaken. As I wrote to Brenda, I was not attacking her, simply giving the other side. As for Susan, I responded as she had. I am probably as uninformed about people here as you are about me. I would have preferred an open intelligent debate on facts. However your narrow minded views make that impossible. So I will respond to you as you have me, one line sarcasms. Kasey kasey simpson wrote: > Maybe once he is > discharged > you will support Bush, after all then this whole thing won't be about you > any more. > You know nothing about the people whom you flip off with your sarcasm. Your little one liners to Brenda, Susan, me, whoever, are oh so clever. You are making a very serious charge of hypocrisy to me, as you have made it to others, including your little cheap shot that "you* and *your family* brought freedom to the rest of us, when you wrote to Susan that "sarcastic patriots like me, and my family that fought wars to bring it [free air] to you." I suspect you have NO CLUE as to who in this forum has been in the military, who has not, and who has done what, but you give us the classic cheap, cheap shot about what *you* have done. And frankly, the issue of response to terrorism, including war, deserves more than clever bon mots of sarcasm. This is not a game. This is life and death. And there are members of this forum - not myself by the way - you spent September 11th choking in the dust of the collapsed towers. This is very real to all of us because of those connections. And you presume without knowledge of whom you are speaking to, to suggest that my politics are affected my self-interest. Well, there are a lot of people on these boards who know me and whether they agree with me on any certain thing or not,. they can evaluate your accusation for what it is worth. You have been a member here a very short time. That is fine; we were all new once, and the JMDL is strengthened, blessed, and grows with new people. But for someone so new, I find the commentary on other JMDLers to be, well, unusual. You have political positions you wish to advance, by all means, do so, a lot of us, me including, comment on political matters. But you might wish to avoid the personal attacks and cheap shots on people whom you do not know - or even on people you do - and stick to the issues without the personal comments. This is not a forum for the personal attack, for the lumping of people into stereotypical categories and making attacks. Within any given subject, we have a broad, broad range of opinions that are as diverse as a prism and reflect as many points along the spectrum as possible. I have learned much from the differing perspectives and insights of others. People here are real, varied, and diverse, and it has been respect for one another, love for another, that has allowed us to go through the most difficult of issues with free-ranging discussions. Vince NPIMH: the last verse of "Woodstock"Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:31:11 -0500 From: "kasey simpson" Subject: Victor/njc Victor, Thank you. I'm trying not to make it personal. Kasey But, you must > understand that it was a group of like minded people. The consecration > of energy focused on the same goal. That is not the case in war. I wish > love could stop wars. I wish what you had/have would spread to all > four corners of the world. But it has not, and will not. Well, I believe that love will change the world. It is never too late. That is when > wars take place. I have repeated several times here that it was not an > easy choice for me to make, that doesn't seem to mater. I respect > what you feel, I just feel differently. > Kasey I haven't seen any thing written that said you couldn't make your own choice. There seems to be a fundamental disagreement so just let it be and don't make it so personal. Just accept that not everyone feels the same way, but don't knock their beliefs. Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnsonGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 09:33:49 -0400 From: vince Subject: njc personal attacks kasey simpson wrote: > Maybe once he is > discharged > you will support Bush, after all then this whole thing won't be about you > any more. > You know nothing about the people whom you flip off with your sarcasm. Your little one liners to Brenda, Susan, me, whoever, are oh so clever. You are making a very serious charge of hypocrisy to me, as you have made it to others, including your little cheap shot that "you* and *your family* brought freedom to the rest of us, when you wrote to Susan that "sarcastic patriots like me, and my family that fought wars to bring it [free air] to you." I suspect you have NO CLUE as to who in this forum has been in the military, who has not, and who has done what, but you give us the classic cheap, cheap shot about what *you* have done. And frankly, the issue of response to terrorism, including war, deserves more than clever bon mots of sarcasm. This is not a game. This is life and death. And there are members of this forum - not myself by the way - you spent September 11th choking in the dust of the collapsed towers. This is very real to all of us because of those connections. And you presume without knowledge of whom you are speaking to, to suggest that my politics are affected my self-interest. Well, there are a lot of people on these boards who know me and whether they agree with me on any certain thing or not,. they can evaluate your accusation for what it is worth. You have been a member here a very short time. That is fine; we were all new once, and the JMDL is strengthened, blessed, and grows with new people. But for someone so new, I find the commentary on other JMDLers to be, well, unusual. You have political positions you wish to advance, by all means, do so, a lot of us, me including, comment on political matters. But you might wish to avoid the personal attacks and cheap shots on people whom you do not know - or even on people you do - and stick to the issues without the personal comments. This is not a forum for the personal attack, for the lumping of people into stereotypical categories and making attacks. Within any given subject, we have a broad, broad range of opinions that are as diverse as a prism and reflect as many points along the spectrum as possible. I have learned much from the differing perspectives and insights of others. People here are real, varied, and diverse, and it has been respect for one another, love for another, that has allowed us to go through the most difficult of issues with free-ranging discussions. Vince NPIMH: the last verse of "Woodstock" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 06:49:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: a new Joni page (for me) - --- vince wrote: > > > Looking for the lyrics quote, I came upon > http://www.geocities.com/musica_holm/joni.html > > > > Anyone have any knowledge of this site, or can contact the owner of > the > site and make some contact? > Perhaps Mike in Barcelona can help with the translation . Mags np: XPN ===== You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 09:52:27 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: Gage's mother got married - njc colin wrote: > I was deeply moved by your post. I understand that injustice you spoke of. > One day those people will undertsand it too and feel shame. > You know, Colin, some of it was un-necessary (to me) bringing up of the past, but maybe for them it was necessary because they are still working through all that happened in those days -- that is why my feelings on it all were so profoundly mixed - as well, the comment that "I wish you were straight because I wish you would marry my mother, you could make her happy, she needs someone like you, and I wish you were my step-father, why can't you be straight" is the most complimentary thing that that person could possibly offer me - mixed, mixed feelings - but a sense of being deeply accepted while at the same moment being made to feel so very,, very different - thanks for your words, Colin! Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 07:06:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: RE: Fw: All Hands on Deck. Iraq vote Imminent - 800 number to theCapitol (NJC!) - --- Victor Johnson wrote: > > Victor, our sweet minstrel of peace and love wrote: > I believe that talking, love, and music(JM included) can change > things. I > was at the NE jonifest and it definately changed me in many ways. I > attended a festival a week later that changed me even more, a > festival > where a friend of mine died from a heartattack while I was playing on > stage. I felt the energy that is created when 80 people gather > together or > when several hundred all gather together, thinking feeling the same > vibe > sharing love and music. It is real, very real and is nothing to > knock. > > I feel that energy everyday. I have been through hell but have never > stopped believing in dreams and love and the power of music. If > enough > people believe the same thing then they will make a difference. Air > has > been here for thousands and millions of years and does not belong to > anyone. > and I am moved to respond with: I agree with your passionate response Victor, and am with you. I also need to thank you Claudia for providing the phone number which gives some of us a chance to do 'something' instead of sitting back and feeling helplessly hopeless, with things out of our hands for the most part. And thanks for creating a stepping stone where discussion and dreams of the possibility of peace rather than a war on Iraq can begin to come to the surface. I may not be up on all the politics of the situation, I am definitely a dreamer, and maybe I dont have any or all of the answers. I do know that there are alternatives and they do exist in this world today. It takes a village. I was there at our village, the NE Joni Fest and it was and remains living, loving proof of the power of music, love, friendship. How else can you possibly explain the draw, the year round longing to be together again, even for the few cherished fragments of conversation, hugs, deepening friendships. As Victor said, a place of Life altering, soul altering changes. A community of loving, caring people. Peace can begin in such spaces. I believe that. Ive felt it. Ive felt the international connections made that cannot be broken. The Fest was a surreal and yet very real weekend consisting of 80 people travelling from literally all over the world, (how many countries Uncle John :-)... anyway...peace is possible. our community demonstrates that reality each time we meet. Mags, living, breathing, believing in peace. > > > > > > --- Victor Johnson > --- waytoblu@mindspring.com > "Roses wait for the springtime, > They sleep beneath the ground. > They hear March winds a callin' > For the sun to come around."vlj > > Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ===== You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 07:32:44 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: Fw: All Hands on Deck: Iraq Vote Imminent - 800 number to the Brenda, Your response said much of what I wanted to. And, I have to agree that I read some antagonism into your post, Kasey, whether you meant it or not. I'd be interested to hear from those who support a war against Iraq. I have a few specific questions: - - What specifically is the rationale for the U.S. making the first strike? - - What is the overriding reason for war now? (Why war? Why now?) (The weapons didn't appear last week. They've been there for years.) - - If you feel there is danger of Saddam Hussein using weapons of mass destruction, do you think the danger is less likely under a different regime? I personally find the push for war ludicrous. The fact that so many are willing to listen to a president who reduces foreign policy to personal vendetta says something about where we are right now. Yes, the U.S. and the world were terribly wronged on September 11. But I hope we are a nation of laws, and those laws preclude action such as that which is being proposed in Washington. I hope for peace and eventual understanding. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #409 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)