From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #374 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, September 17 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 374 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: over the line imho NJC ["kakki" ] njc Bush bashing and snide remarks - SJC [vince ] RE: peace day njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: letterman and clinton - njc ["Kate Bennett" ] rehersal njc [vince ] Re: Bush bashing and snide remarks - NJC ["Lori in MD" ] Re: bombing Michigan NJC ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Sir Paul McCartney, njc ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Letterman and Clinton NJC ["Lori in MD" ] Re: Letterman and Clinton NJC ["kakki" ] Re: Letterman and Clinton NJC ["kakki" ] Re: bombing Michigan NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: bombing Michigan NJC ["kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:31:54 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: over the line imho NJC Lori wrote: > Kakki, you need to get out more! ; ) No thank you!! I did come across a few in Arizona in college and ran yelping all the way back to the coast! ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 23:43:57 -0400 From: vince Subject: njc Bush bashing and snide remarks - SJC I will move this to NJC where it belongs despite the Joni quotes. Bob, I am uncomfortable with your put-down of Fiddle and the Drum, and I think saying that what Lori said was "snide, obviously exaggerated and non credible comment in the context of what is a very important topic that deserves more sincere and respectful treatment." is most unfair to Lori, who was not snide, not exaggerated, and very credible. I think, IMHO, you are very unfair to Joni when you say she is "not widely regarded to this day as an expert on national or international affairs" I think of Joni as being very well informed on current events. She was the one who wrote Ethiopia, Tax Free, Tea Leaf Prophecy (care to quote those lyrics?), Beat of Black Wings, Sex Kills.... I think Joni is one of the most astute observers around. > You snipe so steady > You snub so snide > So ripe and ready > To diminish and deride! > You're so quick to condescend > My opinionated friend > All you deface all you defend > Is just a borderline > Just a borderline > Another borderline > Just a borderline The Borderline quote: to whom does that apply? You are using it, it seems to me, in a one-way fashion, as if this is a rebuke of Lori. But the lyrics, as all that Joni writes, cuts a wider swatch than we think. It doesn't apply to "others" - it applies to all of us. It applies to Kakki's comments on her visceral detesting of Clinton and her accusations regarding Clinton 'despicably bullshitting us' on the OK bombings. It certainly applies to your entire post to Lori. And it applies to everything, everything that I have said, and Lori has said, and everyone, everyone else who has posted. It stands as a reminder to us all to reflect very carefully before we post. And in the light I conclude that Kakki, Lori, myself, and others have not consciously, intentionally transgressed what Joni speaks of in this lyric. Everyone has attempted to post from their heart. I do not know you well, so I am unsure of your motivation, but I will credit as well that this in the end does not apply to you as it does not apply to the rest of us. > \I don't know the true numbers (time for another poll?), but I think > > it's safe to say that more of us on the JMDL consider ourselves > > liberals than not. So yeah, we're going to bash Bush and his boys. > > Count me in as right of center, please - and I dislike the arrogant > demagogues like Hannity and Grant and Limbaugh. Are you implying that the > entitlement to bash derives from strength in numbers ? Is that courageous ? That is not what I took Lori to mean, at all. > Still, what we have to say, and how we say it, doesn't even come close > > to the blatant, seething, disrespectful hatred of the Right toward > > Clinton. And that was long before blow jobs and the meaning of "is." > > Lori, I am afraid I disagree. And I disagree with you. I feel that it, whatever has been said of late, doesn't even come close to the blatant, seething, disrespectful hatred of the Right toward Clinton long before the Monica thing.. > I found your comments above to be well within > the same category, especially when you attribute the other badness to > approximately half the country (you did not say 'far right', after all, just > 'Right'. I sincerely challenge that half the country is "right". Or "left" The self identification of most Americans would be squarely in the middle, neither right nor left. I seem to recall that the "right" is 33% of the 40%+ or - of Americans who identify as Republicans, and the left would be maybe 15% of the 40% + or - of Americans who identify as Democrats. > Considering Borderline, do you think Joni would approve of the tone of some of > the remarks posted recently ? Given the whole of Joni's lyrics? I think again that Borderline would cut against you as well as Lori, it would cut against all of us. So your question is at once unfair and at once, who knows? Joni doesn't post as some else pointed out, and we wish she would - but you cannot presume to speak for Joni, nor can I, nor anyone. Joni has made a life out of speaking for herself when she chooses. I think it is unfair to try and slam Lori with a Joni quote, trying to lay a guilt trip on her like that. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:09:18 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: peace day njc bobethel, honey, so happy to hear this & congrats on the gig..you will kill them...oops i mean they will love you! ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:09:21 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: letterman and clinton - njc paz is your brain on rugs?..hehehe chatjoke... >>>The carpet crawlers heed their callers: "We've got to get in to get out We've got to get in to get out We've got to get in to get out" But I digress! ;-) Paz<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 00:07:28 -0400 From: vince Subject: rehersal njc Everything we are doing is shadow boxing. On the Letterman show, Clinton firmly, I thought, took a stand against a war with Iraq. That is in part why two people who never ran against each other, Clinton and Bush, are being debated here so strenuously. We are rehearsing for what is to come. Not such a bad thing, for a war with Iraq is of great global significance. I hope everyone realizes that as decisions get made, in the UN, in the Congress, by the administration, as war looms larger and larger, that passions will run deep and freely. There is no way that this community is not going to grapple with something as huge as war with Iraq. And we should, we are family, and for many, this is a very safe place and perhaps only place to express their thoughts, or, for many, think out loud and search out their thoughts. When Kosovo happened, there was much discussion in here of course, much aided by those who are not US citizens, much aided by the global perspective. And the lines were not drawn among the usual suspects. There was a lot of heart wrenching soul searching and honest explorations for answers. And as always in the JMDL, there will be heat, light, passion, wisdom, insights, a variety of perspectives, probably a few less than pleasant posts. Some people will delete every post unread. Some will read every post and respond to most. Over all a very solid exchange amongst people who have a common bond and a common affection for each other. As with every major issue that this community has discussed, we will all come out better informed than we were prior. We will hang together and make it through the difficult days, regardless of what stance we have, because we are hanging on to each other, in love, in caring. We will get through all things together; we always have, we always well. This is one hell of a community here. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:07:17 -0700 From: "Lori in MD" Subject: Re: Bush bashing and snide remarks - NJC Bob S. wrote: > To this, I would reply that Fiddle and the Drum > was young work by a politically naive young artist, > expressing herself quite artistically, as usual, > during the politically divisive Vietnam war. I'll have to disagree with that, Bob. Given what appear to be Joni's sentiments -- which haven't seemed to change much over the last 30+ years -- she could have written "The Fiddle And The Drum" yesterday. > As far as I know, Joni is not widely regarded to > this day as an expert on national or international > affairs, so I do not really see how this song > (I never did really get the "once again" part of the > song) is of any relevance to this topic. Since when does one need to be an expert about these things? It's not acceptable or valid to FEEL strongly about them, and put those feelings into words (borrowed or original)? If Bush, et al, have their way, we are going to war with Iraq. So I think the song is indeed relevant. Why do you think it was sung at this year's Jonifest? As for getting "once again," if you are opposed to war, you are opposed to war (and its siblings, armed conflict and "police action"), be it in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kosovo, Panama, Grenada, Vietnam, Korea, Japan, Germany ... shall I go on? If you take that into consideration, "once again" is pretty easy to figure out. Not everyone thought U.S. involvement in World Wars I and II was a good idea. I personally have mixed feelings about armed conflict, and I spent more than 10 years in the U.S. Air Force. However, I do not support the Administration's push to invade Iraq. I support Bush to the extent that he's my president, but I don't agree with the way he thinks. I did not vote for him nor would I in the future. > Why are you smirking at your friend? > Is this to be the night when > All well-wishing ends? > All credibility revoked? > Thin skin thick jokes! > Can we blame it on the smoke, > This borderline? Point taken, and I apologize to you, Kakki, if I seemed to be smirking. > You snipe so steady > You snub so snide > So ripe and ready > To diminish and deride! > You're so quick to condescend > My opinionated friend > All you deface all you defend > Is just a borderline > Just a borderline > Another borderline > Just a borderline Bob, you're right on with these lyrics, and I appreciate you posting them. I have always been too quick to throw my not-fully-educated opinions into the fray. But right or not, I live by my gut instinct. So far in these 44 years, it has served me well. Everything is marked by borderlines. As someone who places a lot of credence in Taoism, I believe quite a lot of life is illusion. Although I can't help but say it: I really don't know life at all. ; ) > Are you implying that the entitlement to bash > derives from strength in numbers ? I didn't intend to imply any sort of entitlement. I simply wished to point out that, as a liberal-heavy list, most of us are not in agreement with many (if not most) of the current Administration's policies. Because this is an easy place to "air out" one's frustration, grievances, etc., it's natural to see more Bush bashing than support for him. > Is that courageous ? Maybe not. Hadn't thought about it. I'll consider it, though. Thank you for asking the question. > Lori, I am afraid I disagree. I found your comments > above to be well within the same category, especially > when you attribute the other badness to approximately > half the country (you did not say 'far right', after > all, just 'Right'. Fair enough, Bob. Another point for me to consider. Although yes, I did say "Right." And I meant to say that. My experience during Clinton's years (and after, continuing even today), is that otherwise calm and kind people (who happen to be right of center) were SEETHING with HATRED over Clinton. I never could see expending so much negative energy about it. I mean, I don't HATE Bush or the rest of his crew. I am fearful of Cheney. But hate? No. > Considering Borderline, do you think Joni would > approve of the tone of some of the remarks posted > recently ? I think Joni would be appalled that I, or any of us, would be concerned with her approval. In kindness and with respect, Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:11:54 -0700 From: "Lori in MD" Subject: Re: njc Bush bashing and snide remarks - SJC > Joni has made a life out of speaking for herself > when she chooses. Well put, Vince. > I think it is unfair to try and slam Lori with a > Joni quote, trying to lay a guilt trip on her like > that. Didn't work anyway. : ) Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 23:21:22 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: letterman and clinton - njc Kakki wrote: > Yes, partly, and many others who have simply left. Astute as always Kakki, as well as well informed. Thanks for the posts. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 00:23:14 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: bombing Michigan NJC I thought it was the blue-eyed people. Or was it the short people? There's one in the spotlight; he don't look right to me. Have HIM up against the wall! And that one looks jewish/and that one's a coon/who let all this riff-raff into the room/and here's one smoking a joint/and another with spots/if I had my way I'd have ALL of you shot! [after psych experiment on school kids & Randy Newman & Roger Waters, in that order] Lama Lori said, > Dammit Vince, don't you know by now that it's always the brown people > of this world who cause all the problems??? Vince said, >> In the terrorism of late 1919 through the early >> 1920s, it was "Italian looking men" who were the >> constant suspects, they were all terrorists, after >> all. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 00:36:38 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: bombing Michigan NJC Sample lyric: 1st verse: Bush's can * my *. Cheney's wife and mom can * me, taking turns. I want to * myself while Dubya *, *, and *. Refrain: Yo, *. * this. Yo, *. * this. No-ow! Yo, *. * this. Yo, *. * this. No-ow! 2nd verse: Ford's mom can ** my **. Nixon's daughters can all * me, taking turns. I want to * myself while Carter *, *, and *. Refrain: Yo, *. * this. Yo, *. * this. No-ow! Yo, *. * this. Yo, *. * this. No-ow! etc. Sometimes having Eminem represent America to the rest of the world *, *, and most of all, *. Badly. Lama Vince said, >>>Eminem has a few, shall we say, unkind things to say about the Cheneys and the Bush administration on his latest album and in the just completed tour - I wonder if the bombers are taxiing on the run way now, except Eminem isn't brown, but he hangs with all the African Americans, so that makes him honorary at least! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 00:39:30 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Sir Paul McCartney, njc Matlin- I *pledge* $10. Lama ps, Why do you lurk so, dear? Terry said, >>>>I have two floor tix to Paul's concert that I'm selling, face value, which is (gulp) $250 each. Email if interested ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:41:09 -0700 From: "Lori in MD" Subject: Re: Letterman and Clinton NJC > What has made me so troubled at this point is what > I perceive to be the ongoing America bashing on the > list. I think it is extremely cruel and dark. I haven't seen anything akin to America bashing, but then I've undoubtedly missed some posts. However, the U.S. should not be exempt from a bit of bashing every now and again. Sometimes it causes us to examine what we're doing; other times we simply deserve it. Kakki, every feeling human being on this planet was devastated to some extent by 9/11. That doesn't excuse risking everything IN THE WORLD to go stomp Saddam's ass, under the guise of "fighting terrorism." Other countries live with terrible acts perpetrated against their citizens on a daily basis. Why do we, as Americans, seem to continue to insist that it should have never happened to us? I don't know how we should react, but blowing everything and everybody to smithereens is not the answer. As I just mentioned, I spent more than 10 years in the Air Force. I was personally acquainted with a lot of not particularly intelligent people who are unfortunately in charge of various aspects of our military. Believe me when I tell you that at least half of them really do not know what they're doing. And now they're all running around under the vast umbrella of "righteous patriotism." Give me a break. (And take that HUGE flag off of your car already!) "On and on insanities On and on Short sighted greed abounds" Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:49:57 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Letterman and Clinton NJC Lori, > I haven't seen anything akin to America bashing, but then I've > undoubtedly missed some posts. However, the U.S. should not be exempt > from a bit of bashing every now and again. Sometimes it causes us to > examine what we're doing; other times we simply deserve it. There has been plenty and I refuse to peronally further tolerate reading anyone who implies that the U.S. deserved 9/11 or that any American who shows their feelings for it by flying a flag is a moronic idiot. > Kakki, every feeling human being on this planet was devastated to some > extent by 9/11. That doesn't excuse risking everything IN THE WORLD to > go stomp Saddam's ass, under the guise of "fighting terrorism." My remarks have nothing to do with a debate about war. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:55:53 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Letterman and Clinton NJC Since my original post to Lori did not show up on the list, I am sending the abbreviated gist of it: Lori wrote: >> > Yes to the former, and no to the latter. My point was that since this > > list is liberal-heavy, and Bush and his ilk are anything but, you're > > going to read more complaints about this administration than supportive > > comments. That shouldn't be surprising. But dissenting opinions > > should be tolerated, and even encouraged! I replied: Here's my personal bottom line (which I will deal with in my own way) - what our country has been through in the past year has been devastating to me and many others. What bothers me is not so much the Bush bashing in itself because I don't think any politician should ever be held up to be the Second Coming. I think we should always be a bit skeptical and questioning of those who are representing us. (The only person who I *ever* have given a free pass to is Joni! ;-) What has made me so troubled at this point is what I perceive to be the ongoing America bashing on the list. I think it is extremely cruel and dark. Some of it carries over to the Bush-bashing. I just don't want to read it anymore. I can't sit here anymore and ignore it and say it's OK and reasonable and fun and interesting and whatever. I just can't. I will deal with it in my own way. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:44:03 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: bombing Michigan NJC Catherine McKay wrote: > --- vince wrote: > > I have heard some credible arguments on Amy > > Goodman's > > > Democracy Now (left wing radio at it's finest) > > that witnesses > > > including a pizza delivery guy saw McVeigh in a > > hotel room with > > > some middle-eastern looking men. So maybe he > > didn't act alone. > > > We should probably just bomb everything to be on > > the safe side. > > > > Or at least bomb hotels? Hotels where pizzas are > > delivered? > > > > As Pete Seger said, when will they ever learn... > > > > "middle eastern looking men." In the terrorism of > > late 1919 through the early > > 1920s, it was "Italian looking men" who were the > > constant suspects, they were all > > terrorists, after all. Thus Sacco and Vanzetti got > > executed and thousands of > > Italians were deported. What is happening today is > > nothing new. > > Vince, I'm glad you brought this up, because I was > going to respond the first time the issue of the pizza > delivery guy came up, but didn't get around to it. If > a person can be thought of as "guilty" just because > they *look* middle-Eastern/Italian/whatever, then God > help us all. Shortly after Sept 11/01, when people > were spotting white powder everywhere (I've told you > about my own experience with this last October, on a > day when it seems lots of people in Toronto made > similar discoveries), I had some of my staff coming to > me worried about the "middle-Eastern"-looking courier > guy we had, or the delivery guy with the turban, or > whatever. It just so happens that a number of the > couriers we use are freelancers who work for this one > company and they drive their own cars and they don't > wear uniforms and, yeah, some of them are > "Arab-looking" or "Middle-Eastern-looking", or maybe > even "Italian-looking" or they've got dark skin and > beards and gee, some of them wear turbans. And all of > a sudden they're all potential terrorists? And the > pizza-delivery guy, who would most likely be ignored > in normal times, becomes this apparently credible > witness all of a sudden, Wait. We're not talking about demonizing all "Arab-looking" people. We're talking about people who were seen with Timothy McVeigh shortly before the bombing. Hopefully you read the articles Kakki posted. There were several people who saw this. If nothing else, it bears looking into, but for some reason, the authorities seem to be ignoring it or covering it up. Timothy McVeigh said he acted alone. They didn't waste any time executing him. Makes you wonder. We can't be so PC that even identifying someone's appearance is considered racism. The subject of racial profiling is an entirely different one. The feds have arrested, detained, and mistreated alot of people of middle eastern descent since Sept. 11, and continue to cover it up, for which there is no excuse. RR > because people are looking > for something to hang their fear on. How frightening. > > ===== > Catherine > Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 23:06:19 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: bombing Michigan NJC Randy wrote: > Wait. We're not talking about demonizing all "Arab-looking" > people. We're talking about people who were seen with > Timothy McVeigh shortly before the bombing. Hopefully you > read the articles Kakki posted. There were several people who > saw this. If nothing else, it bears looking into, but for some > reason, the authorities seem to be ignoring it or covering it up. Thank you for at least reading the articles. I am surprised that others here have not heard of this and think I am promoting some hairbrained or worse, racist, propaganda. I heard about it on mainstream news on TV and then in the mainstream LA Times. After they cited the LA Weekly I went back to check out the original articles. Around the same time the FBI whistleblowers came forth - which I also saw on TV and read about in the LA Times. Shortly thereafter, (sometime in August, I think) a bipartisan committee in Congress said they would do further investigation. Anne mentioned she had learned of the McNichol's ties to Ramzi Yousef, who was convicted for masterming the WTC '93 bombing. This is also discussed in the articles. A pretty big tie. The shopkeepers I go to almost everyday and my auto mechanic are Arab muslims. The first time I saw them all after 9/11 I choked up crying, thinking what prejudice they might have to deal with. They have been very strong and brave, showing kindness always and no bitterness. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #374 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)