From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #370 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, September 16 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 370 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Kissinger (was, Letterman), NJC ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] Re: Letterman and Clinton NJC [dsk ] Re: over the line imho NJC [colin ] Shameless plug: Heads Up New Yorkers, Thursday 9/26 [NJC] [Richard Goldma] Re: over the line imho NJC [vince ] Re: fay and DJRD [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Letterman tape dsk NJC [dsk ] The Boss njc ["Mark or Travis" ] Stones in Chicago njc [vince ] Re: Just a JMDL question, please help NJC ["Lori in MD" ] Re: U.S. Politics [was Re: Letterman] njc [dsk ] De-railed? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: U.S. Politics [was Re: Letterman] njc ["Lori in MD" ] Letterman tape dsk NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: De-railed? ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: De-railed? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Art NJC [John Low ] RE: Yep, I'm bringing it up AGAIN :) DITS ["Heather" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:52:34 -0500 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: RE: Kissinger (was, Letterman), NJC Kakki wrote: "I don't know much about the Wash. Times. I know this was a slanted article and did not mean it to prove that the NY Times was wrong but to show that several newspapers called them on it. At the end of my post last night I included the full text of the NY Times' corrrection. Did you read it?" Yes, if it's the one I'm thinking of: I did read it, with great interest, and indeed, cited what I took to be the gist of it at the end of my post. What the correction told me was that the first NYT piece didn't get it all right, but it didn't get it all wrong, either. You also wrote: "My original point was not that Kissinger may dissent with Bush's policy but rather to refute the statements I have seen on the list and elsewhere that Kissinger "opposes a war on Iraq." " The on-list statements you refer to did appear to overgeneralize. Thanks for setting the record straight. Yet my point is still that Kissinger does, in fact, appear to oppose the *kind* of war that the Bush administration appears determined to prosecute, and does not agree with at least of of the adminstration's crucial goals,'"regime change," in doing so. More of interest to me is that nobody can dispute Brent Scowcroft's opposition to war, in a piece in his own words recently published in the NYT--or that Secretary of State Colin Powell has implied or expressed reservations at crucial junctures in the past month. The fact is that at several key Republican in this adminstration, and several from the G.W.H. Bush administration with key leadership roles in the Persion Gulf conflict, oppose any war with Iraq at all at this time. . . or at least, the type of war the President wishes to engage in. I expect the Democrats to express reservations. I take reservations expressed by these Republicans, especially those who literally know the battlefield, very, very seriously. Take care, Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:55:04 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: Letterman and Clinton NJC > dsk wrote: > I think we're going to eventually find out that Bush is one of the dirtiest presidents we've ever had I think it's very telling that as a nation, the citizens of the U.S. can name more high level executives in this administration than in any previous one I can recall. Their visibility indicates to me a president that's a figurehead at best. I'll be kind and say I believe President Bush is not intelligent and not articulate. Where is the courage and wisdom we so desperately need? lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 13:08:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Meaning of Yom Kipour, NJC - --- Laurent Olszer wrote: > After the Jewish new year, 10 days before Yom Kipour, begins a period > of > introspection and soul searching. The culmination of this 10 day Sins against fellow human beings can only be forgiven by the > wronged > party. > > So I hereby ask forgiveness to anybody I have offended in the past > year. > Laurent, wishing you a happy, healthy, peaceful and prosperous new year. know you are in our thoughts and prayers. While I understand that you have asked for forgiveness, I cannot imagine what you would need forgiveness for or from whom. thanks for your eloquent post. we enjoy reading your words, always. shalom Mags and Brian ===== You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:14:01 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Letterman and Clinton NJC kakki wrote: > > As for my snide remark, I think one or two should be allowed here every now > and then to balance out the constantly ongoing flows of ones against Bush, > no? Nothing personal. Sure, snide remarks are allowed about anything. I prefer being more direct, obnoxiously so perhaps, but have probably gotten some sidewise zingers in myself at some point. I didn't take your comment personally, other than as your personal opinion, and just wanted to give what I considered a more accurate view since I'd seen the whole show. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 23:37:51 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: over the line imho NJC > However, there have been numerous > witnesses, people in law enforcement and others who have said for years that > the connection to middle east terrorists have been covered up, shelved or > ignored in the investigation of OKC. FBI whistleblowers have also come > forward in the past few months in this regard. If this is true, yes it is > despicable that it was covered up. > Lets see, the US governemnt blamed white Americans for the OK bombing rather than non white middle eastern people who they knew did it. Not only that, they executed a white American boy for this crime. For once, I am stumped for words......but I am going to check outside right now to see if I am still on earth. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:44:15 -0700 From: Richard Goldman Subject: Shameless plug: Heads Up New Yorkers, Thursday 9/26 [NJC] I am writing to personally invite you to a CD Release Concert for San Francisco-based recording artist Garrin Benfield. Emerging from the Bay Area with a solid base of enthusiastic fans, Garrin is expanding his audience by launching a nationwide tour. As a kick off to this musical journey, dubbed Nowhere Everywhere 2002, Don Hills Nightclub in New York City will host a concert to celebrate the release of Garrin's new record, Nowhere Is Brighter. Thursday, September 26, 2002 Don Hills 511 Greenwich St, New York, NY 8:00 pm Garrin's live performances are defined by his masterful guitar work and emotionally compelling vocals. Hardly your typical singer/sonwriter, Garrin leads his band into swelling, improvised crescendos and excursions into unknown musical territory. The band will feature Rob Arthur (from Joan Osborne and Kate Pierson's band) on keyboards, Steve Conte (from the Paul Simon, Maceo Parker, Billy Squier, Phoebe Snow bands) on electric guitar, Tony Shanahan (from Patti Smith's and Ray Davies's bands) on bass, Rich Pagano (from Robbie Robertson's The Band, and also Patti Smith's, Ray Davies' and Freddy Johnston bands) on drums, and Claudia Mussen singing background vocals. It would be an honor to have you attend our event at no cost. If you need any assistance or would like to find out more information about Garrin, or sample his music, please visit http://www.garrin.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:16:00 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: over the line imho NJC kakki wrote: > I did hear either Bill or Hillary Clinton make the remarks about > "people who listen to right-wing radio. Hillary spoke of "a vast right-wing conspiracy" behind impeachment. And when Clinton tried to deal with bin Laden, he was accused by many of "Wag the Dog" stuff. Maybe if notorious adulterers like Gingrich, Henry Hyde, etc., had supported the president in the fight against terrorism rather than obsessing about the president's sex life, maybe if Republicans in Congress had paid attention to business, maybe, just maybe our nation would have dealt with things and certain other things would not have happened. It would seem that when a president fought terrorism and that president was Clinton, that national unity was beyond Republicans. This country owes a lot to the fact that Democrats are a great deal more patriotic than Republicans. And I agree that when this nation had very pressing business, a vast right-wing conspiracy was working overtime to divert our nation's attention away from real issues as they dealt with their hatred of the President. At the time of Oklahoma City, 4-17-95, there was a lot of hate radio on the air, from the time that Allen Berg was killed in Denver, there was a lot of concern about what was being whipped up by the hate radio. Bill Clinton did speak of his concerns with hate radio, with the hate encouraged by people who were shooting for ratings numbers and ad sales rather than being responsible for the content of their programming -- and what the results of the enhancement of hate would be. And McVeigh was an avid listener of hate radio. I do not personally recall President Clinton identifying hate radio with the right-wing, but if he did, he'd be right - not that all right wingers are haters, my own dear father is not, but almost all of the hate radio was right wing. Again, not all right-wingers are haters, but almost all hate radio, hell, all hate radio that I have heard, is right wing. But then what do I know, living in a place where the Michigan Militia is very strong, the Michigan Militia being a place that gave support and succor to McVeigh. The far left wing press is filled with conspiracy lunatics. I am not impressed with saying a source is the far left-wing press, And the left was no friend of Bill's. > If this is true, yes it is despicable that it was covered up. > But originally you posted: 'that the Oklahoma City bombing was connected to Hamas and Iraq and not to "people who listen to right wing radio" as Clinton so despicably bullshitted us.' I am sorry, but you can't first post AS and then change it to IF. You accused Clinton of something very heinous. Now you want to change it to an "if." You work in a law office just as I do and you know the importance of those little words. Colin's take was brilliant: 'Lets see, the US government blamed white Americans for the OK bombing rather than non white middle eastern people who they knew did it. Not only that, they executed a white American boy for this crime..' Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:25:34 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: fay and DJRD Yes, I think Debra and the others ("Brenda ?") are on target re fay. The Random House unabridged (what a dictionary !) shows fay - (third definition) - slang - ofay (by shortening) ofay - slang (disparaging and offensive) a white person. (the popular notion that the word is a Pig Latin deformation of 'foe' is very dubious) Anyway, I did not give 'fay' a moment's thought for the first 25 years, since I had quit on Hejira (it was too complex and not intimate enough for me in my youth). When I finally grew up enough to get her 'later' music, I of course assumed it was some West Coast slang for 'famous' :~) Sybil, I repeat my painful confession for your benefit. Having quit on her with Hejira (I did not like Hissing, either), I later bought WTRF and DED, but did not like them either. Then, circa 1999, I bought TI and oops - I liked it. I then listened to NRH,and loved it, too. Then, I rediscovered Hejira - and finally 'got it'. Next came HOSL, and finally, I revisited DED and WTRF. Then, knowing that I probably was not yet ready for Mingus, I skipped to DJRD, with some reservations. It took a while for me to get DJRD, but not that long. DJRD is not a terrible album - au contraire - it is a great album by a great artist. The only things that stop it from being a masterpiece, IMO, are the 10th World (as Bob M already said), and perhaps Otis and Marlena, which is a bit ordinary by JM's standards. And, in my case, I have a problem with Jericho - which others think is a great song (I think it may subtly and unwittingly reveal why she seems to have had trouble sustaining long term relationships - but even if I am right, I must admire the openness and honesty of the art in that song). Cotton Avenue is perhaps her best opener ever, and the sequence of the final 4 songs (Dreamland, DJRD, Off Night Backstreet and Silky Veils of Ardor) is one of the strongest finishes to an album I have ever heard. Throw in the ambitious Paprika Plains, and Talk to Me (Woman of Heart and Mind on cocaine), and - again to quote that know-it-all Mueller - WOW. (This is not intended as an insult - I once spoke to the long time editor of Golf Illustrated about certain personalities, and when we got to Jack Nicklaus, he said - "well, he's pretty much a know-it-all - but, then again, he pretty much knows it all). ;-) Anyway, I suggest from personal experience that it may prove humbling if not humiliating to confuse one's inability to 'get' one of JM's records with the record's inferiority. Stick with it, Sybil. Bob S PS - I Love your stories about your turning your son onto JM via Duritz - thank you so much for sharing them. I have hopes for my own daughter, who professes disdain, but is showing signs of coming around a bit - perhaps in part because one of her friends reacted favorably to JM when my 'obsession' came up in conversation. Also, I was at a wedding recently - a Springsteen song was played by the best man, and the reading from the scriptures was 'Love" from Corinthians - and the table of 25 year old Bruce fans next to ours asked if I was a big Bruce fan, since I am from NJ and a guitar player. I told them 'not really', that I had limited time for music listening and that I barely had time for my obsession. They asked who, and when I replied , one of the young ladies looked at me with apparent admiriation and said "Go, Bob", while the others volunteered that JM was indeed worthy. So, there is hope among the youth of today, IMO. Sybil wrote: 'I'm going WAY out on a limb here - DJRD is the LAST Joni Mitchell album I purchased. Like you, I loved Joni's early work and her girlish voice. I noticed the subtle changes, and I was with her until DJRD. I must say I agree with the critic from Q magazine - it's an awful album from a great artist. And it caused me to stop listening. I'll be retiring to an undisclosed location now to enjoy martinis with Mr. Cheney. Sybil' > I have every Joni CD from Blue through Hejira.I don't want to listen to >Joni's later music(80's through now)because though I love her high,pretty >voice,I don't like her deeper voice.What does everyone think of DJRD?Does >it compare well to her earlier music? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:49:12 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Letterman tape dsk NJC vince wrote: > > Letterman has been very hard on Clinton through the years. It was my feeling > that Dave was surprised about how much he was impressed by Clinton. And that was > one of the most impressive presidential or former presidential interviews that I > have ever seen. Me too. And even with all the serious topics covered, it did include some light moments. > I'd love a tape of that show, I'd be happy to send you a copy, Vince. Send me your address privately and I'll let you know when it's on its way. > and if anyone has one of the 9-18-01 show with Dan > rather, as well. Letterman has refused to approve sale of the 9-18-01 show > because he says that no one should profit off of that, But that was a historic > show. I'd love to see that show myself. I didn't even think to watch it last September, much less tape it, so I've only seen snippets myself. They're quite moving, and I'd like to see it all too sometime. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:48:35 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: The Boss njc the table of 25 year old Bruce fans next to > ours asked if I was a big Bruce fan, since I am from NJ and a guitar player. > I told them 'not really', that I had limited time for music listening and > that I barely had time for my obsession. I listened to 'The Rising' the other night, the first and only Bruce Springstein I have owned. I have to say that I was very moved by this record. I will listen to it some more and who knows, I may become a fan. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:01:26 -0400 From: vince Subject: Stones in Chicago njc I posted this once but it was buried in another thread, and I also apologize for the time being wrong on some of my posts. The Stones, in Chicago, at Comiskey Park, home of the White Sox, the Stones were great beyond words. An incredible stage and set, and it was just the ultimate professionals being so happy and so in to their music and what they were doing, when they could have mailed it in - there were on, in the moment, who knew Keith could smile???? and I am not even a Stones fan really, I just went because they are living legends of rock history, but what an incredible, fantastic, show. They way we figured, Paint It Black, Beast of Burden, Not Fade Away, and Time is on my Side were the only songs they didn't do - given their hits, that leaves a lot of other great songs, and if the Stones are coming your way go see them! Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 17:33:51 -0700 From: "Lori in MD" Subject: Re: Just a JMDL question, please help NJC > When I send a discussion topic out into cyberspace > often people respond quite quickly, sometimes within > minutes...how is this possible? Hi Erica! You may have already had your question answered, but I thought I'd chime in anyway (I'm always looking for a reason to post a link, you know)! Many of us receive our JMDL mail via "individual messages" as opposed to digest form, which is what you're receiving. You can change this easily by sending an email to , with the following in the body of the email: unsubscribe joni-digest subscribe joni It may take a few minutes for everything to catch up, and you'll receive the usual confirmation request, to which you'll need to respond to activate your new subscription. More info here: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni.info You can, of course, always go back and read previous digests (in case you miss something), at http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Hope that helps! Lori in MD ~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:01:08 -0700 From: "Lori in MD" Subject: Re: U.S. Politics [was Re: Letterman] njc > In contrast to Clinton, I think we're going to eventually > find out that Bush is one of the dirtiest presidents we've > ever had, if the country survives long enough. Debra, I have to disagree with part of your statement. I think we're going to eventually find out that Bush is one of the DUMBEST presidents we've ever had. It's Cheney who is running the show, and we're going to eventually find out just how dirty HE is, if the country survives long enough. Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:21:57 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: Meaning of Yom Kipour, NJC Mags wrote: > Laurent, wishing you a happy, healthy, peaceful and prosperous new > year. know you are in our thoughts and prayers. While I understand that > you have asked for forgiveness, I cannot imagine what you would need > forgiveness for or from whom. > > thanks for your eloquent post. we enjoy reading your words, always. I couldn't possibly say it better than Mags, Laurent. I second this. Happy New Year to you. Mack > > shalom > > Mags and Brian > > > > > > ===== > You open my heart, you do. > Yes you do. > - JM > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > http://autos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:16:30 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #367 Mark E wrote "And I still think that the idea that Mingus or Klein or anybody else de-railed Joni's career is pure bunk. Mingus gave her the opportunity of a life time. Klein maybe wanted to have more control or influence than he did but I can't believe that Joni gave control of her music to anybody else at that point of her career. That's my *opinion* anyway." Mark, I agree with that. I do not know if you were replying to Bob M's comment about my musings. If not, never mind. If so, I would like to clarify. I feel that with DJRD, Joni was on a roll, a creative one featuring her concepts. When the Mingus request came, she had a decision - to continue on her own tack (which was sailing strong), or to shift tacks to have a chance to sail with a legend. I do not question her decision - either on its merits, or in the context of the immediacy of it - this decision could not be put off to another year. And I respect one of the other views, that this 'experiment' (HOLS thru DJRD) had run its course anyway - although Joni had thertofore proven that she could keep going higher and higher, seemingly against all credulity. However, I doubt that her next musical adventure, had it been left to her own devices, would have been in the 'Mingus" direction - a rather different musical genre, and a collaboration. I wonder what direction she would have chosen on her own. In any event, surely noone else de-railed her. Bob S. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:16:35 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Just a JMDL question, please help NJC **When I send a discussion topic out into cyberspace often people respond quite quickly, sometimes within minutes...how is this possible?** Erica, Lori gave you the details on how to convert to "the list" from "the digest". For what it's worth, if you're really wanting to hunker down and get into the discussions, it's the only way to go. It SEEMS overwhelming at first, especially now that things are picking up. I actually find it EASIER to handle individual messages as opposed to trying to handle a digest that takes a while to read and, well, digest. Deleting for me is easier than scrolling, plus, you get the messages instantly instead of waiting a day or so. Give it a try, and you can always return to digest-land should you choose to do so. Bob NP: Dave Van Ronk, "Both Sides Now", dedicated to my pal Jimmy! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:16:15 -0700 From: "Lori in MD" Subject: Re: Letterman and Clinton NJC > As for my snide remark, I think one or two should be allowed > here every now and then to balance out the constantly ongoing > flows of ones against Bush, no? Nothing personal. Kakki, you know I love you, but the above cracked me up. Here we are on a list that began with admiration for and discussion about a woman who wrote these words (which were, btw, beautifully sung by Alison and Kay at Jonifest this year): And so once again Oh, America my friend And so once again You are fighting us all And when we ask you why You raise your sticks and cry and we fall Oh, my friend How did you come To trade the fiddle for the drum You think we're going to say nice things about Bush and his ilk, all clearly hawks who want nothing more than to (paraphrasing Fred Simon) waive our big American dick around the Middle East? (Is it a coincidence that Bush and Cheney are oil boys? I think not.) The only sane person in the bunch *seems* to be Colin Powell. I don't know the true numbers (time for another poll?), but I think it's safe to say that more of us on the JMDL consider ourselves liberals than not. So yeah, we're going to bash Bush and his boys. Still, what we have to say, and how we say it, doesn't even come close to the blatant, seething, disrespectful hatred of the Right toward Clinton. And that was long before blow jobs and the meaning of "is." Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:32:07 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: U.S. Politics [was Re: Letterman] njc Lori in MD wrote: > > > In contrast to Clinton, I think we're going to eventually > > find out that Bush is one of the dirtiest presidents we've > > ever had, if the country survives long enough. > > Debra, I have to disagree with part of your statement. > > I think we're going to eventually find out that Bush is one of the > DUMBEST presidents we've ever had. OH NO, we're going to find out he's even dumber than he seems so far??!!! Uh oh... > It's Cheney who is running the show, and we're going to eventually find > out just how dirty HE is, if the country survives long enough. I keep forgetting about him. He's so robotic he gives me the creeps and I can't watch him for very long, which is probably a mistake since he's the brains behind the operation. He'll never be blamed, though, for whatever happens. I have a feeling he's cagey enough to look out for himself and leave Bush hanging out there on his own if things don't go well. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:36:37 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: De-railed? **In any event, surely noone else de-railed her.** And this was not a word that I used either. And I'm certainly in agreement that Mingus presented her with a once in a lifetime shot, too good to pass up. She admits as much, even knowing it would kill her commercially, which it did. She wasn't de-railed, but she went in a different direction than she would have gone had the opportunity not presented itself... WTRF was an attempt to re-enter the commercial market...great record, I loved it from day one and still do, but when you advertise Lionel Ritchie's involvement with the project (don't I remember stickers on WTRF with his name mentioned?) and Ritchie has the best-selling LP in the nation (Dancing On The Ceiling), it's a great leap of the imagination to think that was mere coincidence. And for the record, I like Ritchie's vocal on YDFT, always have. Joni could have done the vocals on her own, as she in fact did on the WTRF tour in '83. Oh, and throw a duet on there with JT, but not to try and court back her old fans! ;~) Anyway, I don't mean to beat a dead horse re: Klein. He's a talented musician, producer, and all. But did he make suggestions to Joni regarding her musical projects? Of course! That's not speculation, when you listen to interviews you hear them both discussing it. She even admits in a 90's interview that she doesn't consider DED as HER project. (BIG NOTE: this is not meant to diss the 80's projects, merely to suggest that because she was in love she made some artistic compromises to please her partner. ) Does anyone here think that her 80's projects would have been the same had Klein NOT been involved? Bob NP: Marie LaForet, "Both Sides Now" (French) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:37:46 -0700 From: "Lori in MD" Subject: Re: U.S. Politics [was Re: Letterman] njc Debra, on Cheney: > He's so robotic he gives me the creeps Yup. I most often refer to him as "evil incarnate." Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:59:53 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: e: Letterman njc pandora here... mike wrote "I don't know, but I think people should demand, expect and get more 'integrity' from a President than he showed in this case." call me cynical but i don't expect lots of integrity by the time someone reaches the political top...having spent more years than i care to remember in local fundraising, i have seen what it does...politics is fundraising & successful fundraising means loosing something of yourself...an idealistic person (ghandi a great example of that) does not survive long in that world... mike wrote "Intellectually speaking there is no comparison, but let's not (anyone) confuse intellect with honesty or integrity. I think if we look around at the world leaders we see a pathetic ragbag of populists and worse. " mike i agree with everything you said...i am not sure the leaders we need these days are the ones that go into, much less make it to the top of the political heap (how do you make it to the top? money...where does the money come from? etc) ...i have never confused intellect with integrity but since there appears to be a great lack of integrity in politics (forgive me the generality) , i look at intellect & some level of understanding about how other cultures think, prosper or not... we live in a multicultural world...to deny that (& all that it means) is ignorant & jingoistic... mike wrote "There is one way, and only one way, that Bush can reduce terrorism in the world. By refraining from committing terrorist acts himself." absolutely...it seems so simple yet why is it so hard for us to understand? randy wrote "Plus, it's really good for the armament makers." yes, war has historically been very good for these businesses... sharon said "Aggression under a myriad of ideologies..religion, ethnic cleansing...does nothing more than call for counter attack. It is all so sad. How do we stop? By not playing 'catch' back and forth. The one who puts down his or her mitt is really the winner. " true & that is what clinton said & that is what got me starting this whole thread of worms... vince said "I saw Clinton on Letterman and almost cried, given what we got now, and all the good of Clinton despite his flaws, and what we would have had in Gore - you know Al also understands the issues, and would have talked fluently and coherently about the world situation today." yes, it is the understanding of issues (or not) which i feel is so different between the dems & reps... vince wrote "I am surprised that no one had picked up on Letterman's comment to Clinton, toward the end of the show, to the effect of, and I am paraphrasing, "and I think you are still our president." Anyone remember exactly remember what Dave said?" i thought that statement was the most startling statement of the whole evening but i wanted to see what others thought...the way i remember it, he said "you are still are our president", in an awestruck kind of way...very weird i thought..& a bit uncomfortable for clinton, imo kakki wrote"Regarding Iraq, I'm going to wait until all the evidence is presented before I make up my mind." true...i hope we get to hear all the evidence...i thought clinton touched on this very well...iraq is definately a threat but we need world support to move on this...& we better be careful in how we go about it less we set off something very very dangerous...(my interpretation) kakki wrote "Trying to understand the terrorists and appease them has never worked." you are right, it has NEVER been about appeasement... however, not to understand the underpinings of terrorism is to act out of ignorance... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:31:30 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Letterman tape dsk NJC wos, me too i'd love a copy! this was a remarkable interview...debra, let me know if this is possible..thanks! >>Debra, thank you for having the tape (I'd love a copy...) and for the transcribing of the exchange! My interpretation of Letterman's remark was the same as yours.<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:21:09 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: De-railed? She even admits in a 90's > interview that she doesn't consider DED as HER project. I always figured she was referring to Dolby's involvement here, not Klein's. I remember her saying that Dolby was supposed to be a consultant on DED and that she constantly had to fight to keep him from taking it over. She also mentioned something about Geffen giving her a producer for DED (I believe she was referring to Mike Shipley) and saying that she had never had one before (except for David Crosby on STAS) and didn't need one. Did Klein make suggestions? Undoubtedly. But I still think Joni stayed in control of the direction her 80s work took. And Klein was still in the picture with NRH & TI and most of us (not all) agree, I think, that those are great records. It's easy to blame someone other than Joni for records you may not care for. But although I do believe the woman is a genius, she is human and her tastes are not always going to coincide with mine. It doesn't have to because of Klein or anyone else. I just can't believe that she would let anyone influence her to the point of lowering the quality of her music. Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:58:59 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: De-railed? **I always figured she was referring to Dolby's involvement here, not Klein's. ** I think she was referring to them both. But you could be right. ** > Did Klein make suggestions? Undoubtedly. But I still think Joni stayed > in control of the direction her 80s work took.** Well, you can remain in the driver's seat and still listen to a navigator! ;~) > ** It's easy to blame someone other than Joni for records you may not care > for. ** The only one I don't care for is CMIARS...I tried to state that this was not my point, blaming somebody else for Joni's work. My point was that her direction seeme to be more heavily influenced than we tend to think. And we can agree to disagree on that I hope, cuz you know I have a deep respect for your opinion and thoughts on the subject. (At least I HOPE you know that!) ;~) Bob NP: Fred Simon, "Michael From Mountains" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:28:26 -0700 (PDT) From: John Low Subject: Art NJC If any art loving jmdlers live in New York I'd like to recommend an exhibition of the work of a fine Australian artist, Kerry Johns, who hails from my neck of the woods. It is on throughout September at the Ezair Gallery, Madison Avenue. You can read more about Kerry and her work at the gallery's website: http://www.ezairgallery.com/ I don't think you will be disappointed! Regards, John Yahoo! News - Today's headlines ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 23:38:18 -0400 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Yep, I'm bringing it up AGAIN :) DITS gee ... i thought it was "w.c. handy, i'm rich and i feng shui" (just feeling silly) heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Jim Leonard Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 3:06 PM To: Joni List Subject: Re: Yep, I'm bringing it up AGAIN :) DITS I'm way behind on my digests. (There are four long ones waiting to be read.) But, in case no one else has mentioned this, I've always heard the line as "W.C. Handy, I'm rich and I'm famed." In the context of the larger lyric, it makes far more sense to me that Joni would write/sing this than write/sing "fey." Published lyrics, whether printed on album covers or in books, are notoriously untrustworthy. I've come to believe the artists don't supply the transcriptions themselves. Best, Boston Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:53:45 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Letterman and Clinton NJC Lori wrote: > I don't know the true numbers (time for another poll?), but I think > it's safe to say that more of us on the JMDL consider ourselves > liberals than not. So yeah, we're going to bash Bush and his boys. Lori, I am going to speak very frankly about my experience and the experience of many others on this list. Any dissenting opinion from the liberals who always post about politics has been actively discouraged through offlist pressure to shut up by some of the same people who actively and constantly put their opinions on the list, demonization, disrespect and deliberate mischaracterizations on list, and offlist posts asking how could we ever say we love Joni Mitchell music or any music if we are conservative (the nastiest cut of all, IMO). How liberal, caring, reasonable and adult are these kinds of actions? I have had numerous people on this list who are liberals write to me privately and question this treatment of anyone who dissents with the "party line" here. If you want his to be a private club with only leftists allowed then someone should officially come right out and decree it as so, so that those here who may not always agree can bow out or go start their own Joni list. But maybe then it would not be so satisfying to some people. I don't get any of this at all. All I can think is that some people's politics or ideology comes first over everything. I ultimately don't think the political discussions belong here. They serve a "me, too" or provocative purpose for some, but are very divisive and distracting to others. I never start them myself, but get to the point where I feel compelled to respond. Very few, however, seem to want a two-sided exchange. I know I am a fool to engage in them in this atmosphere, but keep thinking one of these days there might be a reasonable debate (sometimes there is, but more often it is shouted down or drowned out). Another fools dream of mine - perhaps we can add another designation of PC for political content so those who don't want to read those posts can opt out of them. I'd just as soon not read them here because there are other forums for such discussion. I have learned a lot about differing opinions here. Some make me want to scream, cry or turn my stomach, some bring me to another understanding of how people think. I always learn something, either way. Obviously if someone does not like or trust Clinton, it doesn't mean they are a "hater" or member of the "vast right wing conspiracy" because we have seen just as many people from the left here say they don't like or trust Clinton, either. There are many on the right who don't like or trust Bush, either. Can we have reasonable and respectful debates here or is the consensus that any dissenting opinion to a liberal should be shut up? Because that is truly how some people here want it. What would Joni want, do you think? Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #370 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)