From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #256 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, June 16 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 256 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: joni songs, anyone? ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 - Off-Key, On-purpose? ["Mark or Travis" ] RE: down to you-njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Bowie and the future ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Off-Key, On-purpose? NJC ["Mike Pritchard" ] Re: Bowie and the future (njc) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Off key, on purpose? [] Bravo Show NJC [Lindsay Moon ] NJC Neil Young help needed [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Refuge of the Roads + other Joni videos [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Bowie and the future (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Bowie and the future NJC (long) [dsk ] Re: Bowie and the future NJC (short) [dsk ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:46:42 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: joni songs, anyone? > Why would Carly refer to Joni as "some child" though? > Wouldn't Carly and Joni be about the same age? Unless > she meant it metaphorically as in "flower child"? > Somehow it sounds as if it could be about a younger > woman, a brief flirtation that's over now. > > If it is about Joni, it seems pretty petty to me. > The incident Carly describes in 'No Secrets' always sounded like a somewhat tawdry one night stand to me. That's the main reason why I never thought it was about Joni. I would imagine that James Taylor had sexual encounters with more than one woman before he married Carly or even before he met Joni. To say that this one single incident that may not even be about James in the first place (it seems likely since Carly and James were newly married when 'No Secrets' was released but still it's pure speculation on anyone but Carly's part) refers specifically to Joni seems like a pretty long stretch to me. And I really don't think Carly is that petty to begin with. 2 and half cents from Mark E in Seattle > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:53:42 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 - Off-Key, On-purpose? > (I love that "I've got the blues inside and outside my > head" bit - the singing so matches what she's saying.) > It seems to me that she's speaking the word 'outside' rather than singing it on that line. That's a technique that Joni uses occasionally, particularly in live performance. Rickie Lee Jones does this a lot as well. Listen to any of her recordings of 'We Belong Together.' She slips in & out between singing & speaking in several places on that song. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:33:49 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 - Off-Key, On-purpose? In a message dated 15/06/02 18:54:08 GMT Daylight Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: << It seems to me that she's speaking the word 'outside' rather than singing it on that line. That's a technique that Joni uses occasionally, particularly in live performance. Rickie Lee Jones does this a lot as well. Listen to any of her recordings of 'We Belong Together.' She slips in & out between singing & speaking in several places on that song. >> Not for the first time, we have to look to German to supply the "mot juste" for this style - Spraechgesang, as I'm sure plenty of you will know. The technique is very effective in the right context, and of course is a godsend to people who couldn't hit a note with an elephant gun at 6 paces. Azeem in London NP: [to the tune of Amazing Grace] Three-Nil, Three-Nil, Three-Nil, Three-Nil... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:53:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Denny Giovanetti Subject: Re: Betty Carter NJC - --- Tyler Hewitt wrote: >I love Betty Carter. >Got to see her live once a couple of years before she >died. An amazing performer, wonderful voice. Not the >easiest music, it takes a few listens to 'get it'. A strong (and early) influence on Cassandra Wilson. About 4-5 years ago, perhaps in downbeat, either CW or a reviewer related a conversation, the upshot of it having BC say something like, "You've got to stop immitating me." I hadn't made the connection, and, going back and forth between the two shows a lot of similarities in style and technique. The thing I've always thought about Betty Carter is, having such a horn-like approach (sort of an Eric Dolphy, post-bop angular approach that opens up at the end of a phrase), there's less of a regard for the actual lyric, while focusing more on the impact of each note. And she could scat faster than just about anyone, zero-to-60 hands down! Denny NP: Jim Hall & Ron Carter, "Autumn Leaves" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 13:20:49 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: down to you-njc those herman hesse books...i learned so much...thanks for the reminder about them mark! i think i'm going to have to re read demian, & a few of the others... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 13:20:54 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Bowie and the future >>Anyone else have any musings about the musical future? And especially of how artists will fare?<< There is a recently (in the last few years) formed group called the Future of Music Coalition. They have a yearly conference in Wash DC (I think). I haven't been to one yet, but have a friend who is part of it. I think its a great time to be an independent artist, though it takes a lot of work. On the other hand there is so much corporate consolidation going on, such as clear channel radio buying up radio stations around the country and also performance venues. A 2000 report by the RIAA (http://www.riaa.com/MD-Cons-5-00-MCT.cfm) stated "Of note was the 45 and over segment, which more than doubled its share of the market since 1990, rounding out the decade with a 23.8% share of the market. This past decade clearly revealed the significance that the baby boom generation places on music in their lives." There was a recent quote similar to this in Rolling Stone & I saw a news program last week that that mentioned the same thing. As an artist, I chose not to put my stuff up on mp3 mainly because I did not like their business practices towards artists (another story). I will continue to record in the CD format...at least in my lifetime & for my audience, think there will still be a market for CDs. I know, if I like an artist, I want the CD with the words, photos, etc. ... not just the music. My first instinct, in reading Bowie's comments was remembering how some said that computers would replace humans...well we know how quite the opposited happened, computers created a whole new industry... I do agree that people will always want togo to live shows. That is the origin of music, before it ever turned into something about a business...people getting together to sing & play together... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:16:11 +0000 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: Re: Off-Key, On-purpose? NJC >>When does it stop being bending a note, and start being off-key or flat? << What was it Alan Alda said (about humour) in "Crimes and Misdemeanours" : "if you bend it, it's funny. If you break it, it's not funny". "or perhaps it was "if it bends, it's funny; if it breaks, it's not funny." mike in barcelona, who's off-key, flat and tone deaf, but able to appreciate genius when I hear it, whatever form it takes and however much it breaks the rules. NP PMG  Still Life (talking)  Thanks Fred for the tip, one part of the 'brazilian trilogy bought, only two to go - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:30:01 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Bowie and the future (njc) In a message dated 15/06/02 21:10:17 GMT Daylight Time, kate@katebennett.com writes: << I do agree that people will always want togo to live shows. That is the origin of music, before it ever turned into something about a business...people getting together to sing & play together... >> This reminds me that Richard Thompson has said several times that playing live is how he makes his living; he barely makes a bean from records/CDs. As long as humans continue to have a soul, people will want to go to hear, see and experience live music. Azeem in London NP: St Germain - Tourist ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:26:27 -0500 From: Subject: Off key, on purpose? Catherine wrote: "I've got a question for the professional musicians or audiophiles, or people who know these kinds of things. When does it stop being bending a note, and start being off-key or flat? I'm confused, because, to me, Joni is never flat." Catherine, for me, that's the $64,000,000 question. I think Joni *has,* in fact, "bent" or altered a note on purpose so that it was technically flat, and to good effect. An excellent example of that has already been mentioned in this thread: the line about laying down an impression of your loneliness in "Down to You." *That,* I think, *was* intentional, and done to good effect (didn't last too long; wasn't uncomfortably dissonant; let us in on the "joke," if we were listening carefully). However, the last "away" in "Peoples' Parties" has always struck me, and probably always will strike me, as simply and inalterably FLAT. If that note is indeed in the main melody line, as I think it is, it's flat. If the it's in one of several harmony lines she is singing against the melody line, it's flat. Whatever innovations with harmony she she may or may not be undertaking in the song are irrelevant, to my mind. Flat is flat--and this note is *flat.* Am I getting a little peevish here, or what??! ;-) The note in "Peoples' Parties" has always surprised me, precisely because, as I would be the first to point out, Joni's sense of pitch is usually so good. As is, may I say with the proper amount of modesty, my own. The note in "Down to You," I can understand. It fits with the song and the mood, without seeming to be a mistake. But this one, if it's intentional, I simply don't get. Mary P., Getting crotchety in her old age. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:14:12 -0700 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: Bravo Show NJC Kate wrote: I think I commented a few months back about this show and my opinion about the interviewer ... unfortunately, I was not as, uh, kind towards him. I too was so excited about the premise of the show and tuned in to the first one with Lou Reed. I'm not even much of a fan of his, but am interested in his history, the music of the times, etc. The interviewer drove me nuts with what I considered to be totally annoying questions. Something along the lines of (I'm making this part up), "you wrote a song with the word "salamander" in it. Do you know which one it was?" What is this? 20 questions? For Christmas sake, the man was a hard drug user for 20 odd years and you expect him to have pinpoint accuracy about things like that. I just thought it was a silly exercise. (It reminded me of Barbara Walters' ridiculous interview question along the lines of "if you could come back as a tree, what kind of tree would it be and why?" Poor Katherine Hepburn had to answer that!) And I think the guy is kind of pushy. Phrasing questions such as "play Such and Such for us." (I expected him to say "right now!" or something) Could ya say, "We'd love to hear such and such. Would you please play it?" I dunno, he's lacking in grace in my opinion. I think the show has hope though, just needs a new host. Is Cameron Crowe busy with movies? He could tape a few of those shows a day like they do game shows ... ; ) Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:59:34 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC Neil Young help needed I am willing to pay someone to help me on this because I have nothing to trade... a lot of you have a lot of music from all kinds of things, always amazes me what this community has tucked away here and there. I need on a cd any and all versions available of Neil Young and Pearl Jam singing Rocking in the Free World, any and all Neil and Pearl Jam stuff together, and Neil's versions of Harvest Moon not available on commercial cd. My grandson Gage is my son's son. My son has been a very absetee father (a story far too long for this space). Gage needed a real father, a dad in his home. Gage's mother is engaged to a young man, Mike, who has turned out to be the person that Gage chooses to call Dad. Mike and Gage's mother will be married in October, meanwhile they have living together for about a year, and I have watched Mike become in every sense a real father to my grandson, and there is a very loving bond between Gage and Mike. Gage and I have talked about how happy he is to have a Dad like everyone else, and Mike is a wonderful dad to my grandson. It turns out Mike loves Neil Young and is having Harvest Moon played as "the slow song" for the bridal couple at the wedding reception iu October. Meanwhile, Mike heard somewhere on tv a broadcast of a concert where Pearl Jam and Neil sang Rocking in the Free World together, and he can't find it anywhere. It would mean a great deal to me to gift Mike with that music, for all he has come to mean to my Gage. Someone in the JMDL is bound to have this somewhere, as well as the other stuff that I listed above, that I would happily pay for if someone could burn a cd for me to give to Mike (and maybe a copy for me...). It is an unusual world where I have bonded with the young man who is serving as dad to my son's child, but Mike loves my grandson, is there for my grandson, my grandson loves Mike, and this makes Mike a very special member of my family and he's a Neil Young fan to boot so how cool is that? Anyone who can help, I would deeply appreciate it. I want Mike to know how much he means to me for being the dad that my grandson has long needed, especially since my own son abdicated that role. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 00:39:24 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Refuge of the Roads + other Joni videos **I notice that Refuge of the Roads is also available used on VHS. Does anybody own it and what's the sound quality like?** Well, I'm no audiophile, but I own an original VHS copy and I thought it sounded fine, even on my cheap little TV/VCR combo. > > **Grace of My Heart: this movie features Joni as composer/performer. Can > anybody recommend it?** Haven't heard the whole thing, Laurent, so I can't comment. Joni's contribution is "Man From Mars", an earlier recording than the one that made it onto TTT, and far better. Joni played piano and sang and the CD was released, then recalled and Joni's vocal was replaced by Kristen Vigard. Still very pretty with her singing it. The Joni version CD is pretty easily found on E-Bay. > > **Under the Covers DVD (2002): Looking at CD Universe under CSN&Y I found > this > DVD which also mentions Joni as performer. Has anybody seen it?** > Yes, this is the promotional DVD that accompanies Henry Diltz' exhibit and features music from the artists whose photographs he took. I haven't seen the actual presentation of the DVD, I'm sure what you're going to get is a montage of the Diltz photos of Joni accompanied by a track from one of Joni's records, Blue is what I would guess. Bob, back in Greenville & staying up WAY past his beddy-bye time... NP: Weezer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 22:09:52 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Bowie and the future (njc) Azeem wrote "This reminds me that Richard Thompson has said several times that playing live is how he makes his living; he barely makes a bean from records/CDs. As long as humans continue to have a soul, people will want to go to hear, see and experience live music." hopefully he made some money from his song dimming of the day that bonnie raitt recorded & which was recently in the sound track to divine secrets of the ya ya sisterhood...at this point in his life with his amazing talent & reputation, he is so very deserving of this! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 01:36:03 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Bowie and the future NJC (long) Kate Bennett wrote: > > I think its a great time to be an independent artist, though it takes a lot > of work. On the other hand there is so much corporate consolidation going > on, such as clear channel radio buying up radio stations around the country > and also performance venues. Yes, but I think they'll do themselves in eventually because no one will pay any attention to their products, so, like a chain store that expands too much, too quickly, they'll collapse. Or be so cumbersome the indies can do an end run around them. > A 2000 report by the RIAA (http://www.riaa.com/MD-Cons-5-00-MCT.cfm) stated > "Of note was the 45 and over segment, which more than doubled its share of > the market since 1990, rounding out the decade with a 23.8% share of the > market. This past decade clearly revealed the significance that the baby > boom generation places on music in their lives." Almost a quarter of the market?! That's great, since baby boomers are used to paying for music in object form. From what I've heard even people who now download "free" music will buy it if they want the complete package, including artwork, and if it's a decent price. It's hard, though, to figure out what that "decent price" is. Today I was again in the store that's closing and was very happy buying cds at much less than the usual $20. Lots of people were very happy doing that. The store was packed. I would have bought more cds all along, especially music I didn't know anything about, if the usual price was around $11. I think the record companies have a lot to do with people wanting music either as downloads or copies. And now that they've added something to some cds (starting with Celine Dion's latest one) that will actually destroy a hard drive if a person makes a copy, the companies are going to make consumers even angrier and even less inclined to pay for their products. I'd be so pissed off if a cd ruined my hard drive it would be a very long time before I'd buy any cd again. > As an artist, I chose not to put my stuff up on mp3 mainly because I did not > like their business practices towards artists (another story). But if someone else does, what happens? Isn't it then available for everyone? My understanding is that Napster doesn't exist anymore, but that there are similar ways to get music. > I will continue to record in the CD format...at least in my lifetime & for > my audience, think there will still be a market for CDs. Or at least until there's something better for you. It may be that rather than produce the cds yourself, you can do the master recording and people will pay to download it directly from you and burn their own copy, and print out the artwork, which will probably be more like self-contained envelope designs rather than jewel box inserts. As to getting paid, there might be something to be learned from freelance programmers who develop shareware that anyone can download. They must have some tricks to make sure they get paid. I realized after I sent my previous message about the future of the music business that it probably came across as rather depressing, especially for anyone in the business who would be feeling the most anxiety about the unknown changes coming. I didn't mean for it to be such a negative message but, Joni's voice comes flittering in here, I've got some blues inside and outside my head these days, so it's hard to write anything without that coming across. Plus, it's easy to talk about what won't exist any more eventually (and I don't see how the current distribution system can last much longer) but hard (well, impossible really) to know what will replace whatever's being lost and see how it will benefit us. In the meantime I'll buy cds forever if I can. I didn't mind leaving albums behind but love these little silver discs. Debra Shea NP: David Bowie on A&E's Live by Request. It's the fourth time I've seen him this week, without even trying. He's publicizing not only his new cd but his website too. He really is a master at self-promotion, and very charming too. And I'm even enjoying the music. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 01:38:48 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Bowie and the future NJC (short) Kate Bennett wrote: > > My first instinct, in reading Bowie's comments was remembering how some said > that computers would replace humans...well we know how quite the opposited > happened, computers created a whole new industry... One thought I had was remembering how people said that books would no longer exist because they would be read on computers. Every bookstore I go into now is packed with people looking (don't know how much buying is being done), so there's obviously still interest in owning books to hold and carry around and read wherever. Of course, reading is a visual experience so very different from hearing music, but rather than replacing books, staring at computer screens may actually result in people appreciating books more than they did before. > I do agree that people will always want togo to live shows. That is the > origin of music, before it ever turned into something about a > business...people getting together to sing & play together... Yes, that's magical. Even in sophisticated venues I can imagine being in the outdoors with others around a campfire and being captured and bound together by sound waves. It's a pleasantly primitive, connected to humankind, feeling. Debra Shea ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #256 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?