From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #255 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, June 15 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 255 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- [none] [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: joni songs, anyone? ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) [Murphycopy@aol.com] Refuge of the Roads + other Joni videos ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 now njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: joni songs, anyone? [Catherine McKay ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 - Off-Key, On-purpose? [Catherine McKay ] Fw: her friend Jackson Browne ["Sherman" ] Betty Carter NJC [Tyler Hewitt ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 - Off-Key, On-purpose? ["Mark or Travis" > I'd just like to add yes, yes and yes to this. And me, too! When Joni sings, "lay down an impression" and then seques to the flatness or whatever of "and your lonliness," I also have always thought that she was trying to express a certain world-weariness that -- when I think about it now -- would have been impossible to convey if she had "sung" the line in the way people were used to hearing her sing lyrics up to that point in her career. I also think it may be the first time she experimented with that textured part of her voice that has come to be thought of as her cigarette voice . . . Everything comes and goes, marked by lovers and styles of clothes. God, I love this song so much, I think I am going to have to perform it at Jonifest. Can I bring my own pianist? In other news, I am visiting a sick (but getting better) friend in Rhode Island. Another friend took me out tonight to that juke joint Alison likes so much and I discovered something I haven't seen in years . . . Joni on the jukebox! It was The Magdelene Laundries, of all things. From the Chieftans' CD. The joint was hopping, though, it being a Friday night and all, so I couldn't bring myself to play such a tragic bummer of a song, even if it is a masterpiece. Plus, I've never been able to enjoy either of Joni's versions since I heard Les Ross sing the song at Jonifest 2001. ;-) Have a great rest of the weekend. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 00:43:19 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: joni songs, anyone? > Hello, > I had heard thru the grapevine that *We have no secrets* by Carly Simon was about Joni. > > *Some child came you never asked for her to come. > She drank a pint of your rum. > And later when you told me, you said she was a bore... > > Joni a bore? Surely it is about somebody else or Miss Simon is a jealous type...and with good reason. Joni looks blows most peoples out of the water. Just an opinion. > Cat I refuse to believe that Carly had Joni in mind when she wrote that verse. I could be wrong but until Ms. Simon herself says so, I don't believe it. Hmmm....maybe I should write to 'Ask Carly' again.... Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 03:56:15 -0400 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) Mark E in Seattle, "way behind on Joni mail," asks: << Does Colin have a dog named Rufus now? >> Mark, I am totally confused by the whole Colin situation, and I am not behind in my Joni mail. From what I understand, Colin has had a complete sex change operation and is now known as Grace. Then, after the operation, Colin/Grace decided to buy a wiener. That's all I can figure out. Take care, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:20:55 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Refuge of the Roads + other Joni videos Hi y'all, I own the Refuge of the Roads 83 LD (laser disc). It is wonderful except the sound quality which sounds more like a 5th generation tape than a CD. My other LDs sound fine, just this one seems to be a lemon. Does anybody have the same problem with that LD? I notice that Refuge of the Roads is also available used on VHS. Does anybody own it and what's the sound quality like? Shadows & Light: both the DVD and the LD don't have Woodstock. Did I dream or wasn't Woodstock on the VHS? What happened? Grace of My Heart: this movie features Joni as composer/performer. Can anybody recommend it? Under the Covers DVD (2002): Looking at CD Universe under CSN&Y I found this DVD which also mentions Joni as performer. Has anybody seen it? Thanks Laurent PS: Watching that Refuge of the Road last night made me wonder whether the U in SIQUOMB (which she undoubtedly is) could stand for "untouchable" in addition to "undisputed". ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:30:01 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: A letter to the Palestinians from an Agnostic in New Zealand, NJC The following is a letter from an agnostic in New Zealand. IT IS NOT MEANT TO START ANOTHER CONTROVERSY NOR TO CAST BLAME ON EITHER SIDE. On the contrary, I find it interesting in its "down under" approach to finding a peaceful solution. I sent a preview to Azeem several days ago to avoid any controversy but he hasn't commented. Please send it to any Palestinian you know. Laurent > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Special Jerusalem Report - Outstanding Open Letter >Barbara Richmond May 27, 2002 > >A LETTER TO THE PALESTINIANS FROM NEW ZEALAND > >> >An Open Letter to the Palestinians from an Agnostic Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 >18:03:29 -0700 > Speaking Truth to the Powerless: An Open Letter To The >People Commonly Called "Palestinians". > >Greetings to any Palestinian who may be reading this. My name is David >White. I am a citizen of New Zealand, a small, Western, nominally >Christian country in the South Pacific Ocean. I am not Jewish, or >Christian, I guess I'm vaguely agnostic. > >Writing this letter is a good way for me to discuss the horrible mess in >the Middle East, spell out as many relevant points as possible concerning >the state of the Palestinian people, and to see what can be made of them I >don't speak Arabic, so I can only communicate with English-speaking >Palestinians. There aren't many here in NZ, though, and I haven't yet met >any. I don't know how many will ever see these words, but, here's hoping >someone does. > >I have a post-graduate university education, and I suppose I could be >called an intellectual. Unfortunately, many such people have supported >abhorrent ideologies such as Nazism, and continue to support Communism, so >I refuse to describe myself in this way. I don't want to considered as >just another "trendy leftie" academic, as we would say in NZ. So, unlike >many university-educated types, I am anti-totalitarian, pro-peace up to a >point,pro-democracy, pro-capitalism (except the capitalists running >Enron), and skeptical about the "cult of victimhood." I'm quite safe here >in New Zealand, and no-one I know has been killed by a Palestinian. > >My perspective of Palestinians is something like this - you're Arabs (of >course), mostly Muslim, but with a Christian minority. Many of you live >outside Gaza/West Bank, mostly in Jordan and other Muslim countries, with >some groups living in Western countries as well. You feel that you have >been wronged by Israel and are fighting to destroy them. > >As for my perspective on Israel, I see them like this. They are a mainly >Jewish, small, free-market democracy with a large Arab minority surrounded >by hostile Arab dictatorships. They have an ancestral claim to Israel, >their state was created as a refuge from persecution, they have a right to >exist, and, having survived a holocaust in Europe, they should not have to >sit still and wait for another one in the Middle East. > >A Down Under Overview. Over the last few months, the conflict in the >disputed territories of Gaza and the West Bank has turned into a war >between the Palestinian people and Israel. (I will not apologise for using >the term "disputed", as I believe it reflects a rather complicated >situation more accurately than "occupied"). > >Your interpretation, as far as I can tell, seems to be something like >this: You have no state of your own, and you are fighting a war against >those you call "Zionist oppressors" and "colonial imperialists", in order >to create a Palestinian state. Accusations of massacre and human rights >violations by the Israeli Army are being tossed around like confetti. Your >leader, Yasser Arafat, vows to "martyr" himself rather than "surrender", >and that bungling and incompetent organization, the United Nations (again, >no apologies for venting personal opinions), is trying to do what it is >constitutionally incapable of doing, i.e. "saving future generations from >the scourge of war". > >The Israelis see things differently, of course. For them, it's a simple >battle for survival. They offered you a state, and you attacked them >instead. They have occupied Palestinian towns, have fought it out with >various armed groups, and desperate attempts are being made by the US, >other Arab countries and the UN to break the so-called "cycle of >violence". As a result, the Palestinian situation at the moment generally, >can be explained by putting it into New Zealand idiom. > >Put bluntly, the Palestinian people are buggered. Munted. Stuffed. Rooted. >(American equivalent=screwed. British equivalent: done over). It's like >this: Yasser Arafat turned down the Israeli offer of a Palestinian >homeland in Gaza and the West Bank. You want, or Arafat claims that you >want, a Palestine "from the river to the sea;" in other words, "all or >nothing". > >There is one insuperable obstacle to this- Israel. No matter how eloquent >your arguments or numerous your martyrs, no matter how many European >diplomats are angered by, or UN resolutions are passed against, Israel, >the Israelis are not going to pack up and leave. The only way you will get >the Palestinian state you want is to destroy Israel. > >This is what you have been trying to do since 1948, and the current >"intifada" launched in 2000 is your latest effort. However, the Israelis >are not standing there and letting you kill them. They are fighting back, >and if they have to choose between their own survival and yours, guess >which choice they'll make. > >A Vast Wringing Of Hands, A Great Fluttering Of Diplomats. That has been >the overall response to the disaster you have created for yourselves. You, >the Palestinian Arabs, are obviously hoping for some kind of international >intervention to save you. As we in New Zealand would say, "Get Real!". > >The European Union and the UN have demonstrated on numerous occasions in >the past their incompetence and total incapacity to take any sort of firm >action without American leadership. Ask your Muslim brothers of >Bosnia-Herzegovina, about how effective the EU and the UN were in >protecting them without American intervention. In spite of the impression >that American diplomatic efforts have created, the US will not take sides >against Israel, and will eventually abandon its futile attempts at >evenhandedness. If they do join forces militarily with Israel in their war >against terrorism, your fighters will be snuffed out like candle flames. > >As for your "beloved Arab brothers" in the Middle East, they make a great >deal of noise about your "liberation struggle", and have sent money and >arms, but have not sent a single tank to save you. Their diplomatic >proposals are ones that could have been offered at any time, and are aimed >at benefiting them, not Palestinians.The Egyptians themselves will not >declare war on Israel unless they receive $100 billion to cover their costs. > >Do you really believe that the rest of your Arab Muslim brothers think you >are worth that much? Do you really believe they will put your interests >ahead of their own? Although your friends and Arabs in Europe are passing >sanctions and burning synagogues in your support, not a single EU warship >has sailed to your aid, and not a single NATO aircraft has dropped a >single bomb on your "Zionist oppressors". > >I have noted that large numbers of people, including university educated >intellectuals support the Palestinian cause. Don't be misled by this. No >matter how many western intellectuals, news media and international >organisations may support the Palestinian struggle, none of this matters >because America stands by Israel. > >The Unbearable Burden of Life How did you get into such a mess? As you >yourselves would say and have indeed said on many occasions, it isn't your >fault. It's always the "Great Satan" America, and it's "Lesser Satan", >Israel, that you blame for all your woes. Everything that you do, such as >your "martyrdom operations", are described as the products of your "rage" >at being "dispossessed of your land", and of your "helplessness" in the >face of "Zionist" might. > >There are only 300 million Arabs against over 5 million Jews! How unfair! >How unjust, that so many can do so little against so few! > >A number of Western commentators have put Arab failures down to numerous >cultural factors, not the least being Islam. Your religious beliefs in >martyrdom and jihad, coupled with a total inability to accept any blame >for your own predicament, have combined to do you great and lasting damage. > >Look closely at why Western countries such as Israel have succeeded, and >Muslim countries have not. Western countries are free-market democracies. >Muslim countries (other than Turkey) aren't. Surely that should tell you >something. > >Why I Stand. As I said, I do not, and I will not, support the Palestinian >cause. Why >not? I have a number of reasons, and here they are: > >1. You have made it clear beyond any shadow of doubt that you intend to >destroy Israel and kill or drive out its Jewish population. This is >genocide, pure and simple. You justify this by saying that Israel has >committed many crimes against your people, and that you seek "justice". I >say this in response- NOTHING WHATSOEVER is an acceptable justification >for genocide. Loss of land, humiliation at being militarily >defeated others have suffered these and moved on to create new nations >and opportunities for themselves. > >Examples abound- the Germans thrown out of East Prussia in Europe, 1945, >the Nationalist Chinese who fled to Taiwan in 1949, to name but two. >Germans and Taiwanese have coped with military defeat and the loss of >land. They haven't warred with their neighbours, nor have they launched >terrorist attacks upon them. Both countries have more wealth than any Arab >nation. Why can't Palestinians cope? Are Germans and Chinese better able >to deal with adversity than Arabs? > >2. You have accused the Israelis of "genocide" against you. Here's a >question for you: Israel has atomic bombs and powerful military forces. If >they really, truly wanted you all dead, they could easily do it. Why >haven't they? If the Israelis went all-out, you would be, as we say in New >Zealand, "dog tucker". Why did they spend so much time negotiating with >your leaders? Because Israel wants peace and secure borders. You refuse to >give them even those. You plan genocide and accuse Israel of the same >crime. Prove it! > >3. The use of terrorism. Killing people for being Jewish is >despicable.Terrorist attacks on innocent civilians are also despicable. >(At this point, I'd like to pause and get a question of nomenclature >cleared up, regarding those Palestinians who kill themselves and others >with explosives strapped to their bodies. You call them "martyrs". Western >media sources and academics debate the precise term to use in describing >them. Others, including the Israelis, call them terrorists. > >I have a better, more appropriate term. I prefer to use the word >"kamikazes". The original kamikazes appeared in 1944, in the war in the >Pacific. They were Japanese Navy and Army pilots, organised into "Special >Attack Units" with orders to crash their planes into American warships, in >the hope of destroying them - "one plane, one ship". Their initial impact >was similar to that of the Al-Quaeda attacks on New York and the >Pentagon-shock and horror. (I noted that many Palestinians appeared on >Western TV celebrating the September attacks). Note: The American >response, in both cases was not the one hoped for. > >Once the shock had worn off, the US set out to destroy the kamikazes, and >terrible destruction was rained down on Japan, ending only with 2 atomic >bombs. You know what is happening right now in Afghanistan to the >Al-Quaeda group). > >4. Using children as suicide bombers. Anyone who teaches children to kill >themselves in suicide attacks is not worth supporting under any >circumstances. For you to do this to your children is an abomination. A >commentator on a Web magazine said that if the Palestinians laid down >their arms, they would get peace and land. If the Israelis laid down their >arms, they would be killed. You know that is true, even if most of Europe >doesn't. Your cause is evil, because it seeks destruction at any price. >Genocide is not justice. Sacrificing your own children for the sake of >your leader's personal ambitions is wicked. > >That's why I cannot support you. That's why I stand with Israel. > >Palestinian Past or Future? > >The Second World War in Europe ended with Hitler's suicide. He was >replaced by Admiral Doenitz who quickly made peace with the Allies. >Japan's leader, Emperor Hirohito, decided on surrender rather than see his >nation destroyed. > >If Arafat chooses surrender, though, will the rest of the Palestinians go >along with it? If he dies, will the war end? If the answer to both of >these questions is No, then the Palestinian people are doomed. Do you >really prefer death as a people? Do you fully comprehend what you are >doing? If you are indeed aware that the path you have embarked on leads to >destruction, and if you have freely chosen to walk in that direction, then >as a people you are truly beyond hope. > >Are Palestinians really going to be a "Kamikaze Nation"? Are you really >going to give Israel no other option except your destruction? If they must >choose, then as Israeli historian Martin Van Creveld said, "better a >terrible end than terror without end". > >Do not think that kamikaze tactics can get you what you want. The Israelis >can tell you all about Masada, if you ask them. Remember what happened to >the Japanese at places like Okinawa and Iwo Jima. Palestinians deserve >better than the current mess you are in now - but before you can be given >anything, you must offer a sincere peace, you must stop teaching your >children to hate, you must stop believing that "victimhood" justifies >everything and - above all other things - GIVE UP ISRAEL! Accept that you >will never go there again except perhaps as workers or tourists. Accept >that Jews are human beings. Accept the verdict of 1948 and learn to live >with it. > >Invest in banks, not bombs. Build computer chips, not Kalashnikovs. Teach >science & math, not hate. Look to the future, not the past. Stop blaming >Americans and Jews for all your problems, and take responsibility for your >own actions. Read those parts in the Quran about living with the "peoples >of the Book". > >Golda Meir, the former Israeli Prime minister, is quoted as "saying" there >will be peace in the Middle East only when the Arabs love their children >more than they hate Israel ". Every time I see pictures of Palestinian >children waving guns and wearing dummy explosives, then I can only say she >is right. The alternative to peace is not victory but death. > >Think about it- before it's too late. > > From an Infidel to Those Who Submit, and are living in the Holy Land - > May God grant you steadfastness in the face of things that cannot be > changed, the capacity to cope with those that can be changed, and the > wisdom and the ability to tell the difference. > >David White Auckland, New Zealand ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:43:01 EDT From: Jennymac48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #173 "....Joni flat, blah blah blah..." I remember one piece of info where Joni was recording or something and people were scurrying around trying to fix equipment and she finally said "what's up?" and some techie explained there was a problem with the system and Joni said "Oh, that's probably just me singing off-key (or she said flat, I don't remember which)" Remember this, anyone else? Love JennyMac ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 06:43:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Nnamani Ugu Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 Great Fans of Joni Mitchell take time off and listen to the music of King Sunny Ade of Nigeria. It has all the rythms that could make a difference. The former President Bill Clinton and his Assistants danced to no end to the melodeous music during his last visit to Nigeria. He is one african musician everybody has come to love JMDL Digest wrote: JMDL Digest Friday, June 14 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 253 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: - -------- Re: Joni as inspiration ["Raffaele Malanga" ] Re: Joni as inspiration [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Carolina In My Mind (James Taylor) [OzWoman321@aol.com] Craig Armstrong [Gordon Mackie ] Re: Flat Joni [Jennymac48@aol.com] The pancake place [Gordon Mackie ] NJC Re: (family) jewels NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: NJC Re: (family) jewels NJC ["Victor Johnson" Re: Flat Joni [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: literature in joni - a ball you can run with! [Brian Gross Re: The pancake place [Lori in MD ] Re: The pancake place ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: literature in joni - a ball you can run with! [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: literature in joni - a ball you can run with! [Murphycopy@aol.com] Humourous thought for the day njc [Brian Gross down to you-njc ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Flat Joni [jan gyn ] Judy Collins(NJC) [Relayer211@aol.com] Judy Collins(NJC) [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: The pancake place [Randy Remote ] Re: Judy Collins(NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] gender ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: Bending notes, off pitch, etc. [WARREN901@aol.com] Re: Bending notes, off pitch, etc. [Lori in MD ] Re: Bending notes, off pitch, etc. [Randy Remote ] Re: Bending notes, off pitch, etc. [Lori in MD ] Re: Bending notes, off pitch, etc. [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Bending notes, off pitch, etc. [Denny Giovanetti joni songs, anyone? [Murphycopy@aol.com] Sad news for Weather Channel addicts (njc) [RobSher50@aol.com] Shadows and Light on DVD [PPeterson4@aol.com] Re: Shadows and Light on DVD NJC [dsk ] - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:36:00 +0000 From: "Raffaele Malanga" Subject: Re: Joni as inspiration >From: RoseMJoy@aol.com >To: r_malanga@hotmail.com >Subject: Re: Joni as inspiration >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:30:33 EDT > >Thanks Raffaele! Speaking of Joni influence, I remember that webpage you >designed. Is it still accessible and if so, could you post the link to it >again? I'm sure other some of the new listers would love to see it. > >rose Hello Rose yes, the website is still online at http://www.malanga.co.uk/selfportrait There's also another one that I put together a few years ago, and it's about Joni's painting exhibition in London. The link is http://www.malanga.co.uk/diary Raf _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:38:54 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni as inspiration In a message dated 6/13/02 4:36:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, r_malanga@hotmail.com writes: > Hello Rose > yes, the website is still online at > > http://www.malanga.co.uk/selfportrait > > There's also another one that I put together a few years ago, and it's > about > Joni's painting exhibition in London. The link is > > http://www.malanga.co.uk/diary > > Raf > Thanks for posting the links again Raffaele. I had it bookmarked a while back, but lost the link when I upgraded my version of AOL. I love your self portrait, it's so kewl. Thanks again for sharing it with us. rose - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:00:58 EDT From: OzWoman321@aol.com Subject: Carolina In My Mind (James Taylor) Hello, All - Victor writes: > This is an interesting thread. Since I've been here in Asheville, I've > written seven songs now(the muse is being very kind) and I wouldn't think > this is so unusual but each time I've started to write something, I've been > inspired by completely different artists, creating a strange hybrid of > their style and my own. I mean, I've been inspired by different people for > years...Rush, Grateful Dead, Jethro Tull, Ella Fitzgerald, REM, etc...but > its never been so rampidly different over the course of two months. India > Arie, James Taylor, Elton John, Neil Young, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix, and > just today Tom Waits. And it feels as you describe above, weaving into a > completely new work that is unique. > > I'm begininning to believe more and more that Asheville is a very unusual > place, a spiritual hub where unusual things can happen. There is a > bookstore downtown(a very cool one Allison!) where I am able to go and > actually lose awareness of everything surrounding me, while people are > still milling about and getting coffee or reading books or whatever. The > real world almost begins to seem secondary to the spiritual world that is > constantly weaving and thriving. > > Kind of spooky and exciting at the same time... From what I've been hearing over the last few years, it sounds like Asheville is some kind of folk music "Mecca" - if you build it, they will come! I always joke that there has to be something in the water - how else to explain the talents of Christine Kane, Billy Jonas, David LaMotte, Chris Rosser and David Wilcox all in the same place?... :-) Susan http://www.heartsdesireconcerts.com "Well, I love the way the world is your garden And you plant your seeds and you let them grow And you take things out of the ground just like You take what comes, but you never know..." ~ Dar Williams - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:10:51 +0100 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Craig Armstrong Raf You may be interested to know that I used to work with Craig Armstrong and one of my work colleagues was until 2 months ago, literally his next door neighbour. Craig also did work on the Luhrman 'Romeo and Juliet' and his album The Space Between Us is a very interesting listen. He still lives in Glasgow but has bought fancier digs in a beter part of town with the Moulin Rouge proceeds (so I'm told). One track form the above named album was used by the French car company Renault as a backdrop to a tv ad with Claudia Schiffer. Im so excited (how sad) that one of the few famous people I know got a mention here! Back to lurk mode for me ! Gordon - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:26:59 EDT From: Jennymac48@aol.com Subject: Re: Flat Joni Mary P. wrote > But has anyone else thought that Joni was just plain FLAT on the last, > drawn-out "awaaaaaayyyy" from the chorus of "Peoples' Parties?" > > I always thought it sounded so flat because the piano intro of the next > song that piggyback's onto said flat awaaaayyyyy is in a different tune. - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:23:45 +0100 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: The pancake place Dear All S'much as I love her, Joni often sings off key and can be, as the saying goes 'as flat as a pancake'...it doesn't bother me that much though. The obvious one is in Down to You when she sings 'and your lonliness'...and it trails off as if she's fallen asleep. But hey..who's perfect.... Gordon - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:55:40 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: (family) jewels NJC < > LOL! I know what you mean...BUT it works both ways. On the way down to the beach, he turned me on to Boxcar Racer, the new Rush, and Incubus. I liked them all except the Rush. Geddy Lee's voice is like fingernails on a blackboard to me. But I found if I just focus on Peart's expert drumming, I can make it through. Bob - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:2:28 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: NJC Re: (family) jewels NJC I liked > them all except the Rush. Geddy Lee's voice is like fingernails on a > blackboard to me. But I found if I just focus on Peart's expert drumming, I > can make it through. > Geddy Lee was my mentor all the way through highschool and into college. I remember trying all the time to sing like him, really high, until..oddly enough...I discovered Joni Mitchell and she kind of took over as my angel of inspiration. I'm not so keen on the new album. I've noticed on the last couple they've done, the songs don't really stick in my head like they used to. And this new record is so dense and so busy I find it hard to figure out where the melody is. And I can see how the younger generation would find it appealing though. Victor - - --- Victor Johnson - - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:03:15 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Flat Joni In a message dated 6/13/2002 9:27:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jennymac48@aol.com writes: > <> > song that piggyback's onto said flat awaaaayyyyy is in a different tune.>> > > This is my take on it as well, that she's transitioning to "Same Situation" and using that "blue note" as a bridge. It's never sounded off to my ear, matter of fact Court & Spark is one of the few records I know that features perfect sonics throughout. Bob - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:16:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: literature in joni - a ball you can run with! He of pointed little head (I wonder which head was being referred to?) said to my Movin Marvelous Mags: "That's great, Mags! I will be glad to help you in any way. I think this would be a wonderful and very worthwhile addition to the site. You'll learn a lot while doing it, and probably meet lots of nice Jersey librarians along the way!" Besides Deb Messling (who actually works in PA, but lives in NJ), are there any other nice Jersey librarians here on the JMDL? Back to work here, Brei (wondering if A.G. Bell and his buddy Watson were as lucky as Magsnbrei) ===== After twenty-three years you'd think I could find A way to let you know somehow That I want to see your smiling face Forty-five years from now. - --Stan Rogers Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:17:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: The pancake place > The obvious one is in Down to You when she sings 'and your > lonliness'...and it trails off as if she's fallen asleep. I think that was intentional. Doesn't it leave you feeling lonely? Lori ~ Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:53:25 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: The pancake place I always found it to be intentional too Lori. It does leave me lonely and perfectly conveys that emotion, as well as desperation, hopelessness, and the black, dark, swirling pit there. More of the pure genius of Joni Mitchell. mack > > The obvious one is in Down to You when she sings 'and your > > lonliness'...and it trails off as if she's fallen asleep. > > I think that was intentional. Doesn't it leave you feeling lonely? > > Lori > > ~ > Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:50:24 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: literature in joni - a ball you can run with! Brian writes: << He of pointed little head (I wonder which head was being referred to?) >> The blue one! - --Bob (AKA "Smurf") - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:51:34 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: literature in joni - a ball you can run with! Oops. Forgot to change the tag on that last one. Sorry, Joni-only people! - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:20:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Humourous thought for the day njc If you must choose between two evils, choose the one you've never tried before. Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:32:17 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: down to you-njc My vacation has been good in some ways and not so in others. It has been somewhat anticlimactic as I search for things to do, at least things that I want to do that fit into the image one gives themselves as they wait in anticipation of those coming days. Akin to the Saturday Night Swindle it is. This time off has been lovely yet lonely, exciting yet fruitless, and unadorned by the companionship THAT I SEEK while I purposely avoid those that offer themselves to me. I went down to the pickup station and, again, lived the lines that Joni sings about in that particular tune. I found myself in an area that some would deem unsavory and, in truth, it is so. Dangerous, dark, and full of individuals looking for their own way. Avoiding the places full of cardboard cutouts (pretty gay men in tight clothing, poppers, one-upmanship, stereotypical homosexuals with emptiness where genuine emotion and thought should be), I searched for and found the den of drug dealing, prostitution, and the homeless. Why? Can't explain it though have surmised it is the inner me looking for the thrills that are so absent in this life that I live. Find so many of my thoughts and actions traveling along inside my head and during my life in tune and in unison with what Joni has sang to me. Not necessarily following her blindly but she has the ability to know and to put down the intricacies inside of our heads and our souls, before they even happen. Maybe the commonality of us all yet I don't think so since so many just do not get it. It is not easy to admit to oneself that they want to go to the dark side of their inner being. Not as eloquent as our dear friend but the raw part of this being wants to be just that, throwing away goodie pretention but is constrained by religious dogma, well-smellt baskets, and the infernal, eternal right thing to do. "a park, a bridge, a tree, a river." Been there, done that, countless and eternally have done that. Stuck to this place and this life by familial obligation, fear, and uncertainty; as the years pass, the wrinkles grow, and my spirit slowly dies away. Got to find the way out of this bottle that I am in, somehow. The end result of it all is that it is down to you and down to me. mack - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:06:34 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Flat Joni > Mary P. wrote > > But has anyone else thought that Joni was just plain FLAT on the last, > > drawn-out "awaaaaaayyyy" from the chorus of "Peoples' Parties?" > > I always thought it sounded so flat because the piano intro of the next > > song that piggyback's onto said flat awaaaayyyyy is in a different tune. Whaddya want, Pamela Anderson? Androgeny rules... - - -jan - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:47:07 -0400 From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Judy Collins(NJC) I used to be a big fan of Judy Collins,and I thought her voice was so pretty.but her voice doesn't sound as beautiful as it used to,to me.I wonder if it has to do with how I see her now as a person.I used to read her message board on her website,and her behavior towards her fans was disgraceful,especially in the last few months of the message board,before it was shut down.I lost a great deal of respect for her.I wonder if that's a reason her voice no longer sounds so good to me. - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:47:01 -0400 From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Judy Collins(NJC) I used to be a big fan of Judy Collins,and I thought her voice was so pretty.but her voice doesn't sound as beautiful as it used to,to me.I wonder if it has to do with how I see her now as a person.I used to read her message board on her website,and her behavior towards her fans was disgraceful,especially in the last few months of the message board,before it was shut down.I lost a great deal of respect for her.I wonder if that's a reason her voice no longer sounds so good to me. - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:02:15 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: The pancake place Whaa?? Often?? Not to my ears. Gordon Mackie wrote: > Dear All > > S'much as I love her, Joni often sings off key and can be, as the > saying goes 'as flat as a pancake'...it doesn't bother me that much > though. The obvious one is in Down to You when she sings 'and your > lonliness'...and it trails off as if she's fallen asleep. But > hey..who's perfect.... > > Gordon - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:44:22 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Judy Collins(NJC) Relayer211@aol.com wrote: > I used to be a big fan of Judy Collins,and I thought her voice was so pretty.but her voice doesn't sound as beautiful as it used to,to me.I wonder if it has to do with how I see her now as a person.I used to read her message board on her website,and her behavior towards her fans was disgraceful,especially in the last few months of the message board,before it was shut down.I lost a great deal of respect for her.I wonder if that's a reason her voice no longer sounds so good to me. I have never found that to be true throughout the 30 plus years I have been attending her concerts and communicating with her as a fan. I have always received personal responses from her, both written and by email, and when I sent my copy of her books to her to be signed they were always sent back to me with personal inscription. A JMDL list member wrote to her after the TNT special and she took the time to immediately respond to him and the list. There was a time back when she had nodes on her throat and had surgery to remove them. There was a period of about 3 years before she got her voice full strength. Having heard her live three times in the past 3 years I can assure you her voice is as pure and crystal clear as ever. Much more than most singers half her age. And after 40 years of performing and dozens of albums she still studies voice weekly in NYC. Jerry, an avid fan - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:41:55 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: gender Laurent, Are you male or female? I can't tell by your name. :) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:46:04 EDT From: WARREN901@aol.com Subject: Re: Bending notes, off pitch, etc. hey girls! just finished listening to 'peoples parties' and as i thought she === message truncated === Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:40:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 now njc - --- Nnamani Ugu wrote: > Great Fans of Joni Mitchell take time off and listen > to the music of King Sunny Ade of Nigeria. It has > all the rythms that could make a difference. > The former President Bill Clinton and his Assistants > danced to no end to the melodeous music during his > last visit to Nigeria. He is one african musician > everybody has come to love The first time I saw the name "Sunny Ade" in print, I thought it was some kind of drink (like lemonade!) It was only later I realized you don't pronounce it like that. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:55:38 -0400 From: "Sherman" Subject: her friend Jackson Browne "Fountain of Sorrow" by her pal Jackson Browne is another tune about our Joan.( that's what I heard) NP: Joni-DJ's Reckless Daughter ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:57:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: joni songs, anyone? - --- Mark or Travis wrote: > > Hello, > > I had heard thru the grapevine that *We have no > secrets* by Carly Simon > was about Joni. > > > > *Some child came you never asked for her to come. > > She drank a pint of your rum. > > And later when you told me, you said she was a > bore... > > > > Joni a bore? Surely it is about somebody else or > Miss Simon is a jealous > type...and with good reason. Joni looks blows most > peoples out of the > water. Just an opinion. > > Cat > > I refuse to believe that Carly had Joni in mind when > she wrote that verse. > I could be wrong but until Ms. Simon herself says > so, I don't believe it. I'm not sure who said what first, or I'd have done a better editing job on this response (sorry, everyone). I don't know much about Carly Simon, so it's hard to offer an opinion on this (anyway, what is an opinion really worth,after all - which means mine is as good as anyone else's?) Somehow, I don't think of Joni as a rum-drinker, to begin with (after all, it was a tequila anaconda, and 17 glasses, Rhein Wine (or is it Rhine?) I can't, off the top of my head, think of any rum references (even in Blue or The Dawntreader, with their nautical references - there's nary a Yo-ho-ho in "The Pirate of Penance" for that matter, heh-heh.) Maybe it's metaphorical, so maybe it doesn't matter. Do I think Joni is a bore? Not me, no way, no how! But maybe to people who don't want to listen to people talkin' and squawkin' all the time, or doing a lot of self-analysis (out loud maybe), she could be seen that way. Maybe it could be perceived as whining, which gets boring if it's happening all the time - except that Joni always adds something humourous to the mix and somehow, I get the feeling that, however she is in public when she tells her stories while she's tuning her guitar, she is probably pretty much the same in private. Despite the fact that there are many parts of Joni's life that she keeps private, she also seems to be very open with people. The stories from people on this list who have met her and talked to her seem to confirm that she's pretty much the same person talking to them as individuals, as she is when she's talking on stage. Boring? Not to me. But suppose she dominates the conversation - and I think we can pretty much agree that she does that a lot. That could piss some people off. It could definitely make people jealous. I suppose they might call it boring, because it's a lot easier to call someone else a bore than to admit that you're jealous. Why would Carly refer to Joni as "some child" though? Wouldn't Carly and Joni be about the same age? Unless she meant it metaphorically as in "flower child"? Somehow it sounds as if it could be about a younger woman, a brief flirtation that's over now. If it is about Joni, it seems pretty petty to me. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:04:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 - Off-Key, On-purpose? - --- BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: > I wonder about the assumption about the vocal in > Down to You. I have always > thought the 'flatness' or "off-keyness" of that line > is quite deliberate. Not > as obviously deliberate as the semi-comical and > off-key "I got the blues > inside and outside my head" in Blue Motel Room, but > deliberate nonetheless. > I'm not claiming Joni has (or ever had) perfect > pitch of course, but I think > she is brave and honest enough as a singer to utter > off-key sounds, > especially when its add to emotion of the lyric. > I've got a question for the professional musicians or audiophiles, or people who know these kinds of things. When does it stop being bending a note, and start being off-key or flat? I'm confused, because, to me, Joni is never flat. Whatever she does, she does deliberately and it sounds right to me. Is it all a matter of perception? I've heard people singing way flat and it's obvious that it's flat - but to me, this isn't the case with Joni. How far off does someone have to be before they pass bending and get straight into flat? I suppose if you're singing classical music, you have to be bang on the note, so bending is a no-no. (I love that "I've got the blues inside and outside my head" bit - the singing so matches what she's saying.) NP, my daughter singing nasally and off-key, but deliberately so (at least, I hope it's deliberate!) - now *that's* annoying! ______________________________________________________________________ Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 12:29:02 EDT From: Marksa973@aol.com Subject: Re: her friend Jackson Browne In a message dated 6/15/2002 10:56:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sherman@netrax.net writes: << "Fountain of Sorrow" by her pal Jackson Browne is another tune about our Joan.( that's what I heard) >> Pal? Judging from the story behind "Not To Blame," she hates his guts. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:52:48 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: down to you-njc > This dark side of an inner being is sometimes called the shadow, a most > essential place to visit for those who pursue their creative art, or for > those who are compelled to do the inner work in order to discover what is > holding them back in life, in love, etc... > > I have NO idea if this makes any sense to you, in the place you are at > Mack...but this is what your post inspired me to write... It makes perfect sense to me, Kate and it's something I've been aware of for a long time. I think it was Hermann Hesse's 'Demian' that first brought this concept to my attention. I was probably 19 or 20 when I read it. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 12:59:22 -0400 From: "Sherman" Subject: Fw: her friend Jackson Browne "Fountain of Sorrow" by her pal Jackson Browne is another tune about > our Joan.( that's what I heard) >> > > > > Pal? Judging from the story behind "Not To Blame," she hates his guts. > I know, I was being facetious. I thought everyone would get it. Janine > > << > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:24:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Tyler Hewitt Subject: Betty Carter NJC I love Betty Carter. Got to see her live once a couple of years before she died. An amazing performer, wonderful voice. Not the easiest music, it takes a few listens to 'get it'. I would reccomend "Dropping Things", it's probably the best of her later work. For earlier work, the live cd "The Audience with Betty Carter" (Crappy title, excellent disc) is a must-have. And, "Ray Charles and Betty Carter", a duet album, is great as well. Tyler I don't know much about Betty Carter but now I have your recommendation to check her out, too ;-) Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:31:29 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 - Off-Key, On-purpose? > I'm not claiming Joni has (or ever had) perfect pitch of course, but I think > she is brave and honest enough as a singer to utter off-key sounds, > especially when its add to emotion of the lyric. Listening to her sing the first verse of 'Drycleaner from Des Moines' on the 'Shadows and Light' DVD recently, accompanied only by Don Alias on drums, her pitch sounded pretty darn good to me. But then I'm no great musical expert. By the way, I purchased this DVD from Musiculture in Singapore via Ebay. I got it for $34.99 and had no problems. Others on the list have purchased the S&L DVD from this source and have also had good results. I was in Silver Platters a couple of weeks ago and found it for $43.99 so I congratulated myself on getting a good deal. Count me in with the group that feels the sound of that last note of 'People's Parties' sounds strange because of the dissonance of the harmonies. Also bending notes has become a time honored tradition in pop music. I was listening to an early Streisand record on the way home yesterday and I had to marvel at the incredible quality of her voice and the seeming ease with which she maneuvers it up and down. Another singer I'm just discovering is Anita O'Day who seems to be able to pick any note in her range and hit it with dead-on accuracy, sometimes with amazing speed, ricocheting like a bullet from note to note. Annie Ross can do this as well. Joni's live rendition of 'Drycleaner' and also 'Trouble Man' reminds me of this type of singing. I used to think Joni was an incredible composer and lyricist but not a particularly great singer. My opinion on that score has changed considerably in the last few years. I wonder if all of you have had anything to do with that? I have to make a comment about Judy Collins before I stop. I heard her on an NPR radio program a few months ago sing 'America the Beautiful'. Her voice was gloriously clear, strong and on-pitch. She's someone else I've come to have tremendous respect for recently. There was a time when I believe the voice was going downhill. 'Hard Times for Lovers' sounded like she was going flat on almost every note to me. But Jerry Notaro pointed out that she had the problem corrected and seems to have bounced back admirably. Back when she recorded 'Both Sides Now', Judy was recording great songs from some of the best writers of the day, singing them beautifully with conviction and originality. In spite of whatever history is between them, Judy was instrumental in getting Joni's songs out into the mainstream and I think both artists would acknowledge the benefits that both have reaped from their professional relationship. I'm just now catching up on list mail. I had a bad reaction to an anti-depressant medication and was not inclined to read email much for a few days. Finally feeling like my old self again. Supposed to try Wellbutrin next but am just a little gun-shy. Different drug, different chemicals it affects so maybe it will be all right. Spare me a positive thought if any of you can. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #255 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?