From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #249 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, June 11 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 249 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: through the wall (some more stuff) [Julius Raymond ] Through the wall, sort of [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Through the wall (sjc) [RobSher50@aol.com] Re: through the wall (sjc) [RobSher50@aol.com] Re: through the wall (sjc) [RobSher50@aol.com] Ben Christophers NJC ["Marian Russell " ] Re: joni's best guitar playing [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: joni song on tv last night (njc) [Lori in MD ] Re: through the wall (some more stuff) [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: Joni - she talks too much ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: rufus & chris in concert and some julia news (njc) [Jerry Notaro ] Impossible Dreamer [Dave Cuneo ] Re: Small Joni in Fiction reference [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Self worth and Praise NJC [Steve Polifka ] Re: joni song on tv last night (njc) ["Brenda" ] XTC (NJC) [Emily Gray Tedrowe ] Musicians/Elvis Costello - njc ["Brenda" ] Crazy sound effects and noises (now NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Grace" ] Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) [Randy Remote ] Re: Through the wall (sjc) ["Grace" ] Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) [Jerry Notaro ] re: Joni's best guitar playing ["c Karma" ] Re: through the wall (one last point) ["Garret" ] Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) ["Garret" ] Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) ["kakki" ] Seafood Lover's Guide ["William Waddell" ] Re: Ben Christophers NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Joni ("Hejira") mention in JUNEantha shaber... (Sam Shaber's e-newsletter) ["Timothy Spong" ] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: dancing about architecture njc [Michael Paz ] Re: (family) jewels ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Brenda" ] Re: "Joni's Four Periods"/west coast labels (njc) ["Brenda" Subject: Re: through the wall (some more stuff) It seems to me that this is what Ms. Lazyasz meant by "pull a Joplin," mack: "On October 4, 1970, four years and four months after she bolted from Austin, Janis Joplin overdosed in her room at the Landmark Hotel in Los Angeles, having scored a particularly pure batch of heroin. Her career had been virtually meteoric, but her ascent as the first goddess of rock was doused by her sad, lonely death, which followed that of Jimi Hendrix, who'd died two weeks earlier. Jim Morrison would die within a year. Janis was cremated and her ashes were scattered along the Marin County coastline of California." - -Julius > > She didn't pull a Joplin > > > I don't know exactly what this means but she didn't pull anything. She > died. It saddens and angers me to see her referred to in this way. > > > mack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:12:14 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: Joni - she talks too much - ----- Original Message ----- From: Now Joni and Germaine Greer would be wonderful dinner guests. be prepared to not be able to get a word in edge wise! > > > - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 04:39:34 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Through the wall, sort of This has been a very interesting discussion, which has seemed to hinge around two strands. As far as The Biz is concerned, I think pretty much anything Joni says is probably fair comment, as the biz is corrupt, venal, obsessed with short-term gain, etc etc. The strand that exercises me is the pretty much constant dismissing of other musicians and performers (apart from Miles Davis, of course, about whom I have differing views, but I'm not gonna go there :-) Anyway, it occurred to me recently that Joni's career trajectory can be likened, loosely speaking, to that of another superstar who has a very different attitude to his peers and "juniors". Does the following sound familiar?? Started performing in the 60s, part of which he spent slogging around folk clubs. Had songs covered by better known artists before having real success himself. In the 70s he was a colossus, releasing a string of mould-breaking albums, which divided critics at the time, and are now seen as classics. The 80s was a lean period, during which both the work rate and quality declined. The 90s then saw a partial return to form, with albums that were reasonably well received, but commercially didn't exactly set the Thames on fire. OK, I'm talking about David Bowie, and there are plenty of anomalies in that comparison (for one thing, Joni never committed a Tin Machine!). Where I see a big difference is that Bowie has always been a great enthusiast, working with different, often much younger collaborators, championing up-and-coming bands, and generally embracing cultural life. Joni, as has been noted, has been much more reserved (insular, even), making vaguely catty comments about "the competition" and even saying she's a painter first and musician second, which makes NO SENSE to me. This may sound like a judgment, and isn't meant to be - certainly not a judgment about either of them as people; they just approach their art indifferent ways. Where Joni loses out, it seems to me, is that her jaded attitude isn't going to help he creatively. Bowie's 90s albums were variable, and maybe only a fan could love all of them - but they always brimmed over with ideas, brio and enthusiasm - he sounded as if he really enjoyed making them - he was having FUN! So, maybe that would be my advice to Joni - have some fun! Azeem in London NP: USA v South Korea, just ended, 1-1 - USA continue to prosper... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 05:03:05 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: Through the wall (sjc) Dear Grace, Please don't feel that I felt criticized. One thing about this forum is that it is full of strong opinions and the right to disagree. I simply objected to the generalization that it was a "western" thing to value people by the job they do instead of who they are. The ability to speak candidly in debate is something treasured greatly here. I totally agree with what you've written below. I just think that this problem is a worldwide one, not just one limited to Western culture. One reason I feel that Joni is so integrated into her art and her music is the way she pours so much of herself into her work. There are so many questions that we cannoot answer about people who only measure a person's worth by what they do. I admit that it is a serious problem. I assure you that I am one person who does not do that. You are a very sensitive and caring person, Grace. That's why the notion is so objectionable to you. To me, that is a great quality to have as a person! Sincerely, Sherelle In a message dated 06/09/2002 1:16:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Grace@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: > dear me, nothing that was written was a criticism of what you wrote! > > I guess I don't agree that what we do is an extension, necessarily, of what > we are inside. I believe we all hold the light of God inside. In most of us > it is buried to one degree or other. > So the person who commits evil is not showing us the light deep inside. > > Artists who create great work are not by that work good people! Plenty of > art or other good work is produced by racists, facists etc > > Artists who create great work are not by that work good people! Plenty of > art or other good work is produced by racists, facists etc.(Ezra Pound?) > > The only person who did show us what was deep inside was Jesus(and maybe > others). > > (i wish writing in this forum wasn't so damend diffiuclt! Sharing one's > thought about somthing should not automatically be read as criticism of > another person!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 05:09:09 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) Dear Victor, I have to agree with you concerning that "duality" of confidence and unsureness at the same time. I wonder if it comes from the fact that she, and other artists have to reach out to people en masse? When you perform in front of others as a musician, the ability to reach other people becomes so important. I would say that is also true of actors, and anyone else in the public spotlight. Love, Sherelle In a message dated 06/09/2002 6:23:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, waytoblu@mindspring.com writes: > I think to some degree, she does know what an effect she's had on so many > lives and that she is able to find some peace and contentment from it in > spite of other complications/issues in her life. She may at times, seek > some kind of reassurance, but inside I think she really does know this on a > deep level. There is always that duality of feeling vulnerable and a little > unsure and at the same time, feeling exceedingly confident and engulfed in > your creative efforts. I think that is always there from the beginning and > never really goes away, no matter how many awards or accolades you might > receive. > > And I think, alot of musicians that appear so confident and sure of > themselves in the public eye and show no weaknesses of frailty, ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 05:16:24 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) Dear Grace, This is so true.One thing I love about Joni, is that she took us with her through her metamorphosis of trying to learn how to value herself. That is why I love her music so much. She turned something very painful and personal into beautiful works of art. My favorite lyric of hers is: "There's comfort in melancholly When there's no need to explain It's just as natural as the weather In these moody skies today..." I can't tell you how many days of low or no self-esteem those words helped me to get through. You are correct that it is an almost impossible task to learn to love oneself when those around you hve not given you any encouragement. I think this is why we are such a family here. There are so many of us that have not had the acceptance we needed and when we heard Joni's music, it was like a "Aha" moment for us. Sincerely, Sherelle In a message dated 06/09/2002 1:05:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Grace@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: > of course but self esteem isn't that simple! a person can spend their life > doing wondeful works(not just art but say caring for the dying or for > orphans or whatever) and still feel like they are not good enough1 and > there are those in the caring field who do it to make themselves feel > better or to appear good rather than because they feel compassion. Feeling > valuable and worthy and loved has to come from within. However, if one > grows up with people who do not value you, it is going to be a very > difficult, if not impossible, task to learn to value oneself. > > soooo....IF Joni felt not valued as achild, or unloved, or was criticised(I > don't know any of those things), she would have a difficult job valuing > herself as a person and may use her art as a way of gaining what she lacks > and that is doomed to failure. > > yes dr's are valued more than nurses. however, imagine where we would be > without sanitation workers! we all have a role and those roles are > important. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:18:46 -0400 From: "Marian Russell " Subject: Ben Christophers NJC Anybody here ever heard the music of Ben Christopers? He opened for Tori Amos' concert last December here in Vienna. I can't even begin to describe how much I totally hated TA, but it was worth going to her concert just to hear BC (just wish I'd left after his set, but not being that familiar with TA's music, I didn't know what I was in for). He seems to be from the UK. He was on the stage all alone with a bunch of different gadgets all around him - he had tape loops going and it sounded like he had a whole band, even though it was just him. He seems a little bit like Nick Drake with sythensizers. Marian Vienna NP: Easter Park - Spoonface - Ben Christophers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:48:12 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: joni's best guitar playing I also like rhythm guitar, so I'll vote for DON JUAN'S RECKLESS DAUGHTER and COYOTE. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 04:49:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: joni song on tv last night (njc) Kate wrote: > after a long day of double gigging...got home, i was in my office, jeff > plopped down & turned on the tv...all of a sudden i hear joni's trouble > child playing under some dialogue...i rushed into see (knocking over my > chair!) & the song just kept playing, i think most or all of the song which > is rare for tv or movies...anyway it was something on nbc called the 70's a > weird mix of fictional story mixed with real footage...the music was really > good, especially joni's song... I saw part of "The 70s," too (and I think the weekend before, "The 60s" was on tv) ... I was channel surfing (after a long day of going "back to the garden" -- pulling weeds!) and stopped when I heard the original version of "Layla." Listened through the end of the song, then surfed some more. At some point I hit on "The 70s" again, at the very end of "Trouble Child." Judging from the few scenes I saw, I don't think I would want to watch the entire tv movie (at least I think it's a movie) -- the fictional part is too melodramatic for my taste -- but I think it would be great if the soundtrack was released. Lori ~ Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 04:47:48 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: through the wall (some more stuff) > She didn't pull a Joplin, Cobain, or Nyro, she continued to drive through > like a snowplow. I'm sure someone else has pointed this out as well. Laura Nyro died of ovarian cancer, she didn't commit suicide. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 8:5:56 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Joni - she talks too much > Now Joni and Germaine Greer would be wonderful dinner guests. be prepared to not be able to get a word in edge wise! Oh no....not the dinner guest thread again... (shudder) Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:27:35 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: rufus & chris in concert and some julia news (njc) kakki wrote: > I was totally blown away and completely > mesmerized by him. At the end of his song they announced he was Rufus. Oh > my - now I know what others have been saying. I told ya so, I told ya so. > > > Speaking of Julia Fordham, she will be at the Knitting Factory in Hollywood > again on June 18th for her record release party! The show starts early - > 6:30 p.m. And she will be joining Pat Benatar and Jennifer Holliday at our Pridefest July 7. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:12:09 -0500 From: "Sybil Skelton" Subject: Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) I remember seeing Rufus the first time on the tribute to John Lennon that was on TV last fall. My reaction was the same as Kate's - WOW. I could almost hear people in their living rooms across America turning to each other and saying "Who is THAT?" Sybil _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:18:01 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Pawley's Hammocks (njc) **hey bob, how much are those pawley island hammocks if you actually buy them on pawley island? i've always wondered this ...** I haven't priced them lately but I think the range is $75-100 depending on what size you want. I can get more information. We have one hanging up on the screened-in porch out back, you can lie in it and (if you don't get instantly rocked to Dreamland) watch the birds coming and going from the feeders. Pretty darn laid back. Bob NP: Tom Waits, "Instrumental Montage(The Tango, Circus Girl) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:32:14 -0400 From: Dave Cuneo Subject: Odd sounds Ciao joniphiles, I like the little refrain "dog eat dog" that runs throughout that song from the very beginning - it is very low and hard to hear unless you listen very carefully - I assume it was L. Klein's voice passed through the Fairlight sample machine. I like that album a lot, although I did not buy it until many years after it's release. Dave. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:46:10 -0400 From: Dave Cuneo Subject: Impossible Dreamer Ciao joniphiles, Last night I finally got a chance to set up my stereo equipment in my new place ( I moved from a tiny one bedroom apartment into a recently purchased 4 BR house!) and first thing I put on was Tony Bennett "Songs for the Jet Set", then Joni's "Court and Spark". Boy, "C&S" sounded good! there was a time when if you had asked me what my favorite Joni album was, I would have said "C&S". Today I would say "For the Roses". Anyway, who is the "Impossible Dreamer"? Is there a clue in the line "Give peace a chance"? Ciao, dave. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:58:31 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Small Joni in Fiction reference In a message dated 6/10/2002 12:32:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jpalis@kssp.upd.edu.ph writes: > I don't know if this can be classified under Joni in Fiction since it is > an audio track, but since the lyrics can stand on their own, I figured it > can be included in your project. > Joseph, There are quite a few songs that mention Joni...if you mention this one, then you've gotta mention them all, and it's not REALLY Joni in fiction after all. Just my opinion, and if smurph wants to add this as a section, well God bless his pointed little head! :~) Then you have the songs "about Joni", etc...Joni's like Elvis - she's EVERYWHERE! Bob NP: Ani Difranco, "face up & sing" (even my favorite records sound better at the beach!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:00:41 -0500 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Self worth and Praise NJC Hi all, I just had a very interesting weekend at Milwaukee's Pridefest this weekend. Yesterday, I performed 2 original songs at the Leather fashion show (!). It was held at a new pavillion at the Summerfest grounds, primarily used for dance music. I got a brief sound-check before the show, and the crowd was at capacity, and I was noivous as hell. So I get up there, opening the show with a solo piano piece called Have U Someday- a song about lust from across the room. Well, I thought I sucked and my playing was shoddy. I really did not want to go back out there! So Backstage, all the guys said I was alright, but the sound was so muffled when the MC was talking, we didn't know what s/he was saying! After the first runway walks, I go out again, and sing to back-up tracks. I felt I was 'on' then (and felt I had redeemed myself-lol!). Later on, after the show, some of my musician friends- who's opinions I trust (and some aquaintences) came up to me and said I was right on, great, fabulous, great playing, blah, blah blah. The best was when some others said," Well, you looked great, but we couldn't understand a word you were singing!" Apparently, sound was good, or sucked, depending on where you were in the pavillion. So much for feedback! (pun intended...) I still don't know how I feel about it all. lol. Steve Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 07:28:53 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: joni song on tv last night (njc) On 10 Jun 2002 at 4:49, Lori in MD wrote: > > Judging from the few scenes I saw, I don't think I would want to watch > the entire tv movie (at least I think it's a movie) -- the fictional > part is too melodramatic for my taste -- but I think it would be great > if the soundtrack was released. > It was released. Of course, Joni's not on it: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=Acy5j8q99btq4 Brenda n.p.: Main Source - "Just Hangin Out" - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:36:58 -0400 From: Emily Gray Tedrowe Subject: XTC (NJC) attention bob in SC, and other XTC fans: i just noticed a nice article on XTC in yesterday's (sunday's) new york times' arts and leisure section. i think you can probably find this online, although i'll save my paper copy in case someone would like me to send it on! - --emily ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 07:44:43 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Musicians/Elvis Costello - njc A re-airing of Elvis Costello's appearance on the Bravo show Musicians is happening this evening at 10pm est. The jury is still out for me on the show itself (I think some of the questions are rather pedestrian) but Elvis' turn on it is one of my favorites. The Hall & Oates one was also surprisingly entertaining, as was Heart (no surprise there - Nancy is a guitar god!). If you haven't seen the show at all, it's definitely worth checking out. Brenda n.p.: Isaac Hayes - "Fragile" - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:15:03 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Crazy sound effects and noises (now NJC) Mia wrote: >I also like that crazy sound on "Nathan LaFraneer". Inside the album cover, >under the musicians credits, it mentions Lee Keefer and Joni Mitchell on >banshee. Now I've never seen a banshee instrument, nor do I know how one is >played, but I would bet this is the instrument that we hear on Nathan >LaFraneer. In Irish folklore, a banshee is a female spirit that delivers her >eerie kind of wailing noise to warn a family of an approaching death of a >member. When we were recording the second Tinker CD "Bending The Banshee's Ear" we needed to get a "Nathan LaFraneer" type Banshee wail. We had to get one of the Tinkers (who shall remain nameless) to fake a near-death experience (my memory is fuzzy, but I think large amounts of alcohol were involved) in order to get the Banshee (or Bean Sidhe in Irish) to show up. THEN we had to keep her talking - just like in the song - until daylight, so she wouldn't carry our friend off. As the morning sun rose, we rolled the tape and caught her wail. I'm glad we didn't have to get her back for a second take. I imagine Joni used a similar technique. - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:45:55 -0400 From: Engwall57@aol.com Subject: Re: Impossible Dreamer In a message dated Mon, 10 Jun 2002 9:50:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CuneoDM@XYMID.com writes: > Anyway, who is the "Impossible Dreamer"? Is there a > clue in the line > "Give peace a chance"? Ciao, dave. I think it might refer to John Lennon - "All we are saying, is give peace a chance." Regards, Ruth from Richmond ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:11:09 -0400 From: Engwall57@aol.com Subject: Re: jewels In a message dated Sun, 9 Jun 2002 2:08:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Murphycopy writes: > > > Magnificent Mags writes: > > << Romeo gazes upon Juliet for the first time at the Capulet fest and says... > > "O, she doth teach the torches to burn bright! > It seems she hangs upon the cheek of night > ******As a rich jewel in an Ethiop's ear****** > > > sound familiar? >> > > > This is very interesting, to say the least. Sounds to me like that bit about > the ruby and the black man's ear that Joni allegedly wrote. Now, I can't help > but wonder . . . > > What's the big deal? As Joni admitted it in "Talk to Me" - " I stole that from Willie the Shake, you know, neither a borrower nor a lender be!" She has also borrowed from the Bible, as in "Love", and probably from a lot of other stuff too. She obviously reads quite a bit. Shakespeare and the Bible are in the public domain. It's not like some heirs are going to sue her for plagiarism. Maybe JMDL should start a Classic Literature in Joni listing. Ruthie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:54:24 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: Self worth and Praise NJC - ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Polifka To: Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 3:00 PM Subject: Self worth and Praise NJC > Hi all, > I just had a very interesting weekend at Milwaukee's Pridefest this > weekend. that took a lot of courage and you had a good time. good onya mate as they say in Oz. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:02:33 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) - ----- Original Message ----- From: > I have to agree with you concerning that "duality" of confidence and > unsureness at the same time. I wonder if it comes from the fact that she, and > other artists have to reach out to people en masse? When you perform in front > of others as a musician, the ability to reach other people becomes so > important. I would say that is also true of actors, and anyone else in the > public spotlight. not quite the same thing-I have regulalry worked in 'public', talking to up to 200 for two hours. Before hand I ahev felt sick, full of doubt, 'what the f*** do i think i am doing?', 'if they knew what i was really like' etc BUt i go on anyway and then i am off. like i become someone else. confident, amusing( ihaev no idea where that comes from) and I get away with saying stuff that other speakers wouldn't because of the way i deleiver it(so i am told). It would seemt hat a different me just takes over. i imagine that is what it is like for singers etc. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:59:35 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) Sybil Skelton wrote: > I remember seeing Rufus the first time on the tribute to John Lennon that > was on TV last fall. My reaction was the same as Kate's - WOW. I could > almost hear people in their living rooms across America turning to each > other and saying "Who is THAT?" I guess I'm not one of them! I've seen him on a few shows including the John Lennon tribute, and...to me he sings off pitch and not very well. I thought he was pretty awful. It's all subjective, no? His dad, on the other hand.... RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:05:58 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: Through the wall (sjc) I simply objected > to the generalization that it was a "western" thing to value people by the > job they do instead of who they are. The ability to speak candidly in debate > is something treasured greatly here. I think soemtimes it might be appropriate to write ALL the thoughts that come into your head when writing! I said in the 'western' world, haveing changed it from 'the world', because I only know about the western world! I am also fairly certain I ahve read about other cultures where worth is not measured this way. However, point taken. perhpas it is a world wide thing and not just a western thing. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:07:03 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) Randy Remote wrote: > Sybil Skelton wrote: > > > I remember seeing Rufus the first time on the tribute to John Lennon that > > was on TV last fall. My reaction was the same as Kate's - WOW. I could > > almost hear people in their living rooms across America turning to each > > other and saying "Who is THAT?" > > I guess I'm not one of them! I've seen him on a few shows including > the John Lennon tribute, and...to me he sings off pitch and not very > well. I thought he was pretty awful. It's all subjective, no? And common for Rufus. You either love him, or hate him. There is no in-between. I think he's a stellar talent of his generation and his singing superb. A friend of mine says he's a mumbler and can't understand a word he sings. But the same has been thought of Joni. Many say her early voice was that of a screamer, and that now her voice is shot. I don't agree with either opinion. Jerry np: Rufus Wainwright - Over the Rainbow ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:19:30 -0500 From: "Sybil Skelton" Subject: Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) It's all subjective, no? Yep, I guess it is. As my mama always says, if we all liked the same thing we'd all be eating vanilla ice cream and courting Lady Bird. Sybil _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:12:47 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: through the wall Lazyasz@aol.com (do you have a name?), I liked much of what you wrote, with a few exceptions. I felt this statement to be cruel: >She didn't pull a Joplin, Cobain, or Nyro,< Janis died of a heroin overdose at age 27 Kurt also overdosed on heroin but didn't die...he then shot himself, also at age 27 Laura died of ovarian cancer at age 49 also, >>If she were to hinge her being on perceived notions of her relevance as an artist, she would have long offed herself. < I don't believe any of the above artists died as a result of feeling artistically irrelevant, I think Janis, Kurt, & sadly many other great artists have died at an early age because they used drugs to numb their inner demons & as a result went over that edge... Laura died of cancer. one more comment...>>She didn't have a personality like Laura Nyro where she could just put her muse on hold (Laura changed her primary focus from record making to childrearing and domestic living)<< It isn't a personality difference that allows someone to put their muse on hold to raise a child, it is the incredible demands of raising a child that leaves little time or energy for the muse... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:51:46 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Joni's best guitar playing While I admit both to not being an expert on technique and my opinions are subjective, I have to consider this thread on the basis of a balance of technical and aesthetic choices. For pure concept as well as chops, I'd have to say that "The Wolf That Lives In Lindsay" is the highwater mark. On balance though, I'd have to go with "Intro/Cotton Avenue" or "Borderline" as my personal favorites with two other songs from "Turbulent Indigo": the title track and "The Sire of Sorrow (Job's Sad Song)" following closely. In live performance, her orchestral guitar transcription of "Just Like This Train" continues to thrill me whenever she plays it. CC "It was the hexagram of the heavens, it was the strings of my guitar." -- JM _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:19:47 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Re: through the wall (one last point) Lazyasz@aol.com wrote: I don't see a lot of people my age listening to Dylan and Young, but most times when I formally introduce her to people I am able to convince them to listen > LOL, what's the trick?? God i've tried and all i get is a scoffed "what is she on?";-) I think i have only scared friends with my passion for Joni's music! I've spread her to perhaps two friends:) although i'd like to think that many of the others now know the name and might admit that she's talented, just from listening to me talk! GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:17:51 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) Well Kate, i've never heard or even heard of Chris Stills but i have long loved Rufus Wainwright. He is an acquired taste i must admit, and i have found that my family finds Rufus' voice infinitely more infuriating than even the smashing pumpkins or radiohead! It took me a while to get into his first album when it was released but then all of a sudden BOOM i got it; i havn't looked back since! I listened to it non stop for quite a prolonged period. He is quite amazing. His second album in many ways surpasses his often brilliant debut. As far as i recall he is a fan of Joni's too:) (that always helps) and there are some fans on the list- stand up Jerry Notaro and Catherine McKay. I havn't listened to him for a few months; must get those cd's out. and maybe i'll look up Stills at some point, if possible, you sound impressed. GARRET np- Joni, Paprika Plains ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 15:05:01 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) Randy wrote: > I guess I'm not one of them! I've seen him on a few shows including > the John Lennon tribute, and...to me he sings off pitch and not very > well. I thought he was pretty awful. It's all subjective, no? > His dad, on the other hand.... This is so funny - part of why I didn't run too fast to get his music is because his dad doesn't do much for me (but I'm considering giving him another listen now ;-) So much of what I hear in the background drones in through one ear and out the other but Rufus took my breath away immediately - I was just transfixed. I love his voice and music - it is different but very compelling to me - maybe it's all those weird minor notes. I think he is tremendously original. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:05:58 -0500 From: "William Waddell" Subject: Seafood Lover's Guide Attention Joni in Fiction people BBC (book) rick stein's seafood lover's guide recipes inspired by a coastal journey Page 6 Introduction Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you got till it's gone JONI MITCHELL, "Big Yellow Taxi" WtS _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:12:01 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Ben Christophers NJC In a message dated 10/06/02 11:19:57 GMT Daylight Time, Marian@mail.jmdl.com writes: << Anybody here ever heard the music of Ben Christopers? >> Me! Me! I saw his second ever gig, at the fabled Kashmir Klub in London, about 2 years ago I think. The place was UNBELIEVABLY full on a hot summer night (yup, we do have them occasionally) - and he was incendiary. He did indeed have his arsenal of gizmos and effects, all of which would have counted for nothing had his voice not been so outstanding. Just about any young chap who can sing in tune and sustain a note gets compared to Jeff Buckley these days, but with Ben the comparisons are justified; he doesn't SOUND like JB, but he's got something of his unbridled power and other-worldliness. And the songs ain't bad neither! << He opened for Tori Amos' concert last December here in Vienna. I can't even begin to describe how much I totally hated TA, but it was worth going to her concert just to hear BC (just wish I'd left after his set, but not being that familiar with TA's music, I didn't know what I was in for). >> Well Marian, I haven't seen Tori for a while, but I'd probably disagree with you there! I think the woman is unique and brilliant. When I've seen her live she's been terrific; I find her amazingly charismatic, and she can play like a demon too. This also gives me the opportunity to plug her last album. It may have already been discussed on the list, but for me Strange Little Girls is one of the best covers albums ever. I can't get over her take on Eminem's 97 Bonnie & Clyde - it's bordering on genius! And Happiness Is A Warm Gun isn't far behind. Still, I'm totally with you about Ben Christophers - have you got his first album as well, it's an essential piece. Azeem in London NP: Not football, just for a change... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:24:18 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) Randy wrote: > I guess I'm not one of them! I've seen him on a few shows including > the John Lennon tribute, and...to me he sings off pitch and not very > well. I thought he was pretty awful. It's all subjective, no? > His dad, on the other hand.... And Kakki replied << This is so funny - part of why I didn't run too fast to get his music is because his dad doesn't do much for me (but I'm considering giving him another listen now ;-) So much of what I hear in the background drones in through one ear and out the other but Rufus took my breath away immediately - I was just transfixed. I love his voice and music - it is different but very compelling to me - maybe it's all those weird minor notes. I think he is tremendously original.>> Well Kakki, Include me out! I think he has got talent - BUT I find his voice virtually unlistenable - so much vibrato that he makes Aaron Neville sound like Lou Reed. The Wainwright/McGarrigle sprog I'm much more interested in is Martha Wainwright: I haven't heard much of her, but her songwriting contribution to The McGarrigle Hour, Year Of The Dragon, is the highlight of the set, which is saying a lot. Oh, and I think their Dad is wonderful! Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 01:21:58 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: Re: Joni ("Hejira") mention in JUNEantha shaber... (Sam Shaber's e-newsletter) Touring songwriter-singer-guitarist Sam[antha] Shaber's e-newsletter for June included the following: > >But most of May was spent driving over 9,000 miles in the Mazda, through >mountains, pra[i]ries, farms, salt flats, tunnels, valleys, passes, and >incredible towns such as Echo, UT, La Grande, OR, Hayes, KS, Wendover, NV, >Nederland, CO, Cheyenne, WY, and Malcolm, IA. And very exciting was >pulling off in Colby, KS[,] and driving around while singing the song >"Matthew" by John Denver which put the town on the map for me at a very >young age. (I forgot to bring the Denver disc with me on this trip which >was a bummer to say the least.) >Other highlights of the trip included All-American Day - which I dubbed >when I realized I would spend the day driving from Lawrence, KS to Boulder, >CO[,] through some of the most "American" looking scenery I have ever >viewed. I decided I was allowed to play only very American music that day, >so I started with the Grateful Dead, ("American Beauty,") and then went to >Bruce Springsteen, ("Born to Run,") (and of course what could be better >than driving through Wyoming while listening to songs about growing up near >the Jersey boardwalks... ) Next came Janis Joplin "Pearl," and for the >finale I threw in Joni Mitchell "Hejira." >(I was corrected later by a friend who said that Joni is actually Canadian, >which A) I should have known, and B) might explain why I got completely >lost as soon as I put the cd on.) >(Or it could be that getting to the Boulder Turnpike 36N from 70W is >physically impossible unless you have infrared vision and can read the >teensy wittle sign for 36 amidst all the HUGE signs for 76, but whatever.) > Sam Shaber, www.samshaber.com, is a John Lennon Songwriting Competition Finalist and Songwriting Competition Finalist. Thought some on the list might find the "Hejira" mention of interest. Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:01:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) - --- AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > > Include me out! I think he has got talent - BUT I > find his voice virtually > unlistenable - so much vibrato that he makes Aaron > Neville sound like Lou > Reed. The Wainwright/McGarrigle sprog I'm much more > interested in is Martha > Wainwright: I haven't heard much of her, but her > songwriting contribution to > The McGarrigle Hour, Year Of The Dragon, is the > highlight of the set, which > is saying a lot. This is funny - I don't notice any vibrato (or not much) in Rufus' singing, and as a rule, vibrato drives me crazy. I agree with whoever first said that he's a love him/hate him kind of guy and there is no in between. I love him - he's got a really old-fashioned style mixed with this weird sense of humour. I've never heard Chris Stills but must check him out. I've been a fan of his mum's for years. ______________________________________________________________________ Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:02:50 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: rufus & chris in concert (njc) Azeem, This makes me smile - > Include me out! I think he has got talent - BUT I find his voice virtually > unlistenable - so much vibrato that he makes Aaron Neville sound like Lou > Reed. I was just thinking the other day that he reminds me of Jimmy Webb/Harry Nilsson/The Left Banke meets Lou Reed - he trips me out in a way I really like. lol Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:17:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) Yeah. That's cool. That's you. Why do you expect Kakki to be like you? I came for conversation. You? Lamadoo - --- Brenda wrote: > Personally, I'd rather talk about the music and not > speculate about the person. LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:06:37 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: dancing about architecture njc Oh wow that is so funny. I wanted to be an architect too early on in life. I use to love to draw what looked like blueprint sketches of houses and stuff. I also have a weak math constitution. Nice talking to you today too! Weird coincidence! Love Paz on 6/6/02 2:21 AM, kakki at kakkib@vzavenue.net wrote: > Julius, > > You so funny, har har ;-) It has been amazing to see this being built right > next door. It's like an eighth wonder of the world. There was a great > article awhile back about how they are breaking the mold in architecture and > have literally been making it up as they go along in the construction > process. It took a long time to get all the funds together to break ground. > Of course, once it was a go, my rent went up 30% a month, ahem, but I'm very > happy to have it in the neighborhood. My first dream of what I wanted to be > when I grew up was an architect. Alas, I lacked the math aptitude to pursue > it, but it is still a great passion. The Disney will open in Fall 2003 and > I hope Joni might play there with her orchestra, maybe with a few new > paintings hung around the rafters, too ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:22:26 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Strats Josh My understanding is that is mostly workmanship and the actual parts they go into them. Whgile they look the same and sound similar they end up being different because of the quality of parts and the workmanship. Obviously the American ones are the most expensive because they are the highest paid in labor fees and because the parts are more expensive here. Also they are many other models of strats like The Strat Plus, The Deluxe Strat plus, The Ultra Strat, The Contemporary, etc. I have several. I have a Black Roland Ready American Strat (which has the GL2a Roland pick up in it to play the VG-8 with), a signed Mexican Strat that I won from Tower Records with Eric Johnsons sig on it, a sea foam green Deluxe Strat Plus, and I just traded my Frost Blue Deluxe Strat Plus for a Parker Classic Fly (which is being modified to my specs in SF as we speak YIPPIE!!!!) Hope this helps Paz on 6/6/02 6:43 PM, Josh Eubank at josheubank@mindspring.com wrote: > Anyone on the list own a strat? If so, what are the differences in the three > different types...I've been told there were three, the American, the Japenese, > and the Mexican strat! Do they sound different? > > Josh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:24:41 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: (family) jewels All..drama, comedy,slapstick,...all stems > from WTS. The question is whom did WTS steal from. Many different sources - mythologies, older plays, histories. Maybe Shakespeare didn't lift lines or scenes intact from other works but the stories for many of his plays came from other sources. For example, in 'A Midsummer Night's Dream', the play that Bottom and his cohorts perform before Theseus' court at the end is 'Pyramus and Thisbe', a play about lovers who are forbidden to see one another by their parents. It ends with the death of the two lovers. There you have the source material for 'Romeo and Juliet' and I believe 'Pyramus and Thisbe' comes from either Greek or Roman drama or mythology. Almost every artist borrows from other, older sources. It's how the source material is used that counts. 'Silky Veils of Ardor' has bits of lyrics from several old folk songs but Joni rearranges them and weaves them into a completely new work that is uniquely her own. The same with 'Slouching Toward Bethlehem.' I would not call this plagiarism or lack of originality. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:39:54 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) On 10 Jun 2002 at 19:17, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > Yeah. That's cool. That's you. Why do you expect > Kakki to be like you? I came for conversation. You? > I don't expect anyone to be like me...that would take away all the fun. B n.p.: Travel Channel - Harley Mania - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:36:14 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: "Joni's Four Periods"/west coast labels (njc) On 2 Jun 2002 at 21:13, Kakki wrote: > Another beautiful essay, Lama - I think you should write an entire > book on Joni! > > Please forgive for chafing just a bit at one statement, which I know > you cited from Karen O'Brien's biography: > > > Elliot visited Mo Ostin at the only record company on America's west > > coast at Warner Brothers. > > Capitol Records founded in L.A. in 1942 by Johnny Mercer > Reprise Records - L.A. - 1960 - Frank Sinatra > A&M Records - L.A. - 1963 - Herb Alpert and Jerry Moss > Dunhill Records - L.A. - 1965 - Lou Adler > > There were also some other fairly large record labels on the west > coast at the time including Twentieth Century Fox and I think MCA had > an office here, too, back then. There were also numerous small but > significant labels such as Specialty, and founded and based in L.A. > decades ago. Brenda would probably have more information. > Jac Holzman opened a west coast office for Elektra in the 60's, Berry Gordy transitioned Motown out of Detroit to L.A. in the late 60's/early 70's and if I recall correctly, ABC/Paramount, which later bought Dunhill, had a sizeable west coast presence as well, fueled by associations with Quincy Jones and Ray Charles. And of course there was Fantasy in San Francisco, home to CCR and Dave Brubeck. Considering the success Capitol was having with the Beach Boys and as the U.S. label for the Beatles, to say that Warner was the only record company on the west coast is more than a little absurd. The Capitol tower at Hollywood & Vine is probably the most prominent architectural symbol of the recording industry in the U.S. Brenda n.p.: Joni - "Refuge of the Roads" - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #249 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?