From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #247 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, June 9 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 247 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Grace" ] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Grace" ] Re: (family) jewels [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #246 [Pearlz2swine@aol.com] Jim L'hommedieu where are you? NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Victor Johnson" ] Small Joni in Fiction reference ["Rob Ettridge" ] Re: joni's best guitar playing ["Marian" ] Re: discussion Posting (i am new) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #246 [Pearlz2swine@aol.com] hurricane SJC ["Garret" ] Re: through the wall (njc) [Catherine McKay ] Re: jewels [Catherine McKay ] Re: through the wall (njc) [Catherine McKay ] Re: hurricane SJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Small Joni in Fiction reference [Murphycopy@aol.com] Joni - she talks too much [Catherine McKay ] Re: jewels of the sea (njc) ["kakki" ] Raya O.Coal - Cut All The Strings - NJC ["Marian" ] Re: (family) jewels [Mags N Brei ] Re: through the wall (sjc) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: through the wall (njc) ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: ronnie dyson/turntables njc ["Brenda" ] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Brenda" ] Re: today in bobbie gentry history - njc ["Brenda" ] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["kakki" ] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Brenda" ] Re: through the wall/the business today (sjc) ["Brenda" ] Re: jewels of the sea (njc) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["kakki" ] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Brenda" ] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Kate Bennett" ] ******As a rich jewel in an Ethiop's ear****** ["Kate Bennett" ] joni song on tv last night ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: (family) jewels, njc ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: through the wall (njc) ["Grace" ] Re: (family) jewels, njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 09:09:28 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 5:43 AM Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) > Grace, sounding quite strangely like our old friend Colin, writes: > > << yes joni has given us some wonderful music. but that is not her worth. and > how sad for us if that is how we measure her and it is catastrophic for her > if she measures herself by what she does. >> > > I loved your post, but Joni has every right to measure herself and find > satisfaction with all that she has accomplished, and with all she has yet to > create, in her life. Except for that horrific, oft mentioned perm in the > '80s, Joni doesn't have a lot to feel bad about. > > of course but self esteem isn't that simple! a person can spend their life doing wondeful works(not just art but say caring for the dying or for orphans or whatever) and still feel like they are not good enough1 and there are those in the caring field who do it to make themselves feel better or to appear good rather than because they feel compassion. Feeling valuable and worthy and loved has to come from within. However, if one grows up with people who do not value you, it is going to be a very difficult, if not impossible, task to learn to value oneself. soooo....IF Joni felt not valued as achild, or unloved, or was criticised(I don't know any of those things), she would have a difficult job valuing herself as a person and may use her art as a way of gaining what she lacks and that is doomed to failure. yes dr's are valued more than nurses. however, imagine where we would be without sanitation workers! we all have a role and those roles are important. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 09:20:50 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 3:14 AM Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) > I agree with you Grace that a person cannot be measured simply by what they > do, but I feel it is equally as wrong to deny that what we do with our lives > and our talents has nothing to do with who we are as people. It is simply an > extention of the person we are deep inside. > dear me, nothing that was written was a criticism of what you wrote! I guess I don't agree that what we do is an extension, necessarily, of what we are inside. I believe we all hold the light of God inside. In most of us it is buried to one degree or other. So the person who commits evil is not showing us the light deep inside. Artists who create great work are not by that work good people! Plenty of art or other good work is produced by racists, facists etc Artists who create great work are not by that work good people! Plenty of art or other good work is produced by racists, facists etc.(Ezra Pound?) The only person who did show us what was deep inside was Jesus(and maybe others). (i wish writing in this forum wasn't so damend diffiuclt! Sharing one's thought about somthing should not automatically be read as criticism of another person!) - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 09:01:10 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: (family) jewels **This is very interesting, to say the least. Sounds to me like that bit about the ruby and the black man's ear that Joni allegedly wrote. Now, I can't help but wonder . . .** But I thought we were already aware of her "stealing" this image and assimilating into her song...I put stealing in quotes as I don't consider it stealing, only assimilating what she's been exposed to in her own work. Surely she doesn't think she could get away with plagiarism of a work as wide-read as Romeo & Juliet! Besides, perhaps her intent is to get us to read more Willie the Shake, just like Sybil got her son to hear Blue via Adam Duritz! Speaking of which, my son came home from beach shopping a couple days ago and told me that he heard "Free Man In Paris" in the JC Penney's, which I thought was pretty cool. Like her or not, he's definitely got Joni in his veins! ;~) Greetings to all from BEAUTIFUL Pawley's Island, SC, (one of the few islands Kakki hasn't been on!) :~D ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:50:51 EDT From: Pearlz2swine@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #246 In a message dated 6/9/02 12:05:01 AM, les@jmdl.com writes: << Hi Pearl and welcome. Can I separate my life from Joni's music? I hope I never have to find out! Her tunes and words are constantly running through my head. >> What a super friendly bunch..Thanks so much...Now about that music in my head...every single time i have turned on the shower in the past twenty years ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:04:31 -0400 From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Jim L'hommedieu where are you? NJC Sorry to use up the bandwidth but I could organize an empty box of toothpicks better than I could organize my email address book! Jim, can you pop off a quick email to me? I have a question for you. MG ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 9:22:16 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) How I wish we could all > sit down with her and help her see what a lasting effect she's had on all of > our lives. I wish she could find peace and contentment knowing that she has > put out some pretty fantastic work and find happiness in it. I think to some degree, she does know what an effect she's had on so many lives and that she is able to find some peace and contentment from it in spite of other complications/issues in her life. She may at times, seek some kind of reassurance, but inside I think she really does know this on a deep level. There is always that duality of feeling vulnerable and a little unsure and at the same time, feeling exceedingly confident and engulfed in your creative efforts. I think that is always there from the beginning and never really goes away, no matter how many awards or accolades you might receive. And I think, alot of musicians that appear so confident and sure of themselves in the public eye and show no weaknesses of frailty, Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 13:31:05 +0100 From: "Rob Ettridge" Subject: Small Joni in Fiction reference I've been reading Emotionally Weird by Kate Atkinson recently. It's set at Dundee University sometime in the 70's there are quite a few music references - - normally what is playing in various student flats. To put it in context, the narrator has a boyfriend, Bob, with disgusting habits and a filthy flat, but she has problems leaving him. It's one of those situations that's more inertia than a relationship. pg 107 "An important part of my leaving-Bob daydream was the place I would live in without him - an uncluttered white space full of nothing but me. And perhaps a coffee table. And a bowl of perfect green apples. Joni Mitchell on the stereo. A white rug." Rob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:33:29 +0200 From: "Marian" Subject: Re: joni's best guitar playing Kurt asked: > Speaking of brilliance, I am curious to know from the > musicians on the list: > If you were asked to choose 1 Joni song that best > exemplifies her brilliance as a guitar player, what song > would you suggest? Impossible to pick just one song... A Bird That Whistles, Day After Day, Tin Angel, The Dawntreader, The Priest, Overture(Cotton Avenue), Just Like This Train, Otis And Marlena, Sisowtowbell Lane, Be Cool, I Had A King, I Don't Know Where I Stand, Ladies Of The Canyon, Hejira, Passion Play, Ray's Dad's Cadillac. I'm sure I missed one or two. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 08:44:39 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: discussion Posting (i am new) In a message dated 6/8/2002 10:33:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Pearlz2swine@aol.com writes: > I cant separate my life from her > music..can you? > Well, I used to be able to, but now it's pretty much become an integral part! ;~) Welcome Pearl. and thanks to you Lori for giving the nudge. Now that you know what to do, keep doing it! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:00:30 EDT From: Pearlz2swine@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #246 In a message dated 6/9/02 12:05:01 AM, les@jmdl.com writes: << Hi Pearl and welcome. Can I separate my life from Joni's music? I hope I never have to find out! Her tunes and words are constantly running through my head. >> sorry..clicked send...every time I turn on the shower(20 years mind you) I hear "3 waitress all wearing black diamond earrings" in my head...It is a grand thing I love Jonimusic as I love life,or that might have driven me(or my family) right into insanity. As is, I don't really mind if every breathing moment has a Joni song connected to it.....everything comes and goes...Anyway again thanks for the wonderful greetings and response to my artwork..Coming soon to my site..page 2 and the return of poetry (I took it off when my teenage son asked me 'was orgasmic a real word') Also, please check out my brothers site..he collects mandala art...(haveyouseengod.net)...Peace to all you crazy Joni Heads (ahhh home at last) Pearl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:26:43 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: hurricane SJC I've been slowly getting into Bob Dylan for a long time. I've had two different greatest hits cd's for years; ii've always liked the typical tracks like Lay Lady Lay, Like a Rolling Stone, Mr Tambourine Man, It's All Over Now, Baby Blue etc. When Wonder Boys was released i bought the cd single for Things Have Changed, a song i love. On that single there was also a version of To Make You Feel My Love (live) which wasn't great, the video for Things Have Changed, and the song Hurricane. Now, this was the first time i'd ever heard this song and i thought it was great. I was listening to it one evening in the kitchen when i remarked to Donna "this is a great song, it'd make a great film!". Of course, she laughed and called me a fecking idiot (well, she actually said f**king eejit) and informed me that it's a true story and the movie The Hurricane with Denzel Washington is based on the same story. She went on to tell me that there is a lot of controversy surrounding it, and the "facts" have oft been debated. About four or five weeks ago Uncut magazine did a special two covers edition featuring Bob Dylan and there was a different cd with both of the different covers. The cds were other artists and bands covering Dylan. I bought both. There were songs like Echo and the Bunnymen doing Its all Over Now Baby Blue, The Charlatans doing Tonight I'll be Staying Here With You, Paul Westerberg doing Postively 4th Street, Lee Ranaldo doing Visions of Johanna, The Hollies doing The Times they are a-changin'.The Waterboys doing Girl from the North Country, etcmany of them exclusive to the magaizne, many of them taken from previoius releases. ONe of hte most innovative on there was, imo, Ani DiFranco doing Hurricane; she lends a very different flavour to the song, but certainly does it justice. Anyway, the point: in the little blurb they give about this song they say " Feminist icon Ani DiFranco offers a radical reinvention of "Hurricane", the song that in 1976 found Dylan returning to his role of broadside balladeer when he took up the case of Rubin "Hurricane" Carter. Dylan believed Carter had been framed for a murder he did not commit- although others ***including Joni Mitchell*** reached a different conclusion...." Has Joni gone on record talking about this case? and what exactly was her stance? What was the dominating view of the day? GARRET np- Emmylou Harris, Every Grain of Sand ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:26:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: through the wall (njc) - --- Murphycopy@aol.com wrote to Grace/Colin: > I worry more about the fact that we value a doctor > more than a nurse. And > that road cleaners don't clean arteries, even if you > pull over and ask them > nicely. > Don't be so sure about that. Everyone has their price! Even doctors don't provide guarantees. ______________________________________________________________________ Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:29:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: jewels - --- Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > > This is very interesting, to say the least. Sounds > to me like that bit about > the ruby and the black man's ear that Joni allegedly > wrote. Now, I can't help > but wonder . . . > > I don't know about the rest of you, but I for one > cannot believe what a > plagiarizing nutjob Joni has turned out to be > lately! Mediocre artists borrow. Great ones steal. can't remember how exactly that went, or who supposedly said it first, but my money is on either Confucius or Oscar Wilde. Yours in mediocrity... ______________________________________________________________________ Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:30:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: through the wall (njc) - --- Grace wrote: > yes dr's are valued more than nurses. however, > imagine where we would be without sanitation > workers! we all have a role and those roles are > important. > We notice this when they go on strike. ______________________________________________________________________ Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:16:20 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: hurricane SJC Garret asks: << Has Joni gone on record talking about this case? and what exactly was her stance? What was the dominating view of the day? >> This is from http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/8805q.cfm. There are four other articles that come up when you type Hurricane in the search engine, but this is one I read last week. It's from an interview with Joni, and the following words are hers: There's a whole history that led up to that action. The first seed was on Rolling Thunder. Bobby and Joan Baez were in whiteface and they were going to rescue Hurricane Carter. I had talked to Hurricane on the phone several times and I was alone in perceiving that he was a violent person and an opportunist. I thought, Oh my God, we're a bunch of white patsy liberals. This is a bad person. He's fakin' it. So when we got to the last show, which was at Madison Square Garden, Joan Baez asked me to introduce Muhammad Ali. I was in a particularly cynical mood - - it had been a difficult excursion. I said, Fine, what I'll say is - and I never would've - I'll say, We're here tonight on behalf of one jive-ass nigger who could have been champion of the world and I'd like to introduce you to another one who is. She stared at me, and immediately removed me from this introductory role. I thought then, I should go on in blackface tonight. Anyway, Hurricane was released and the next day he brutally beat up this woman..... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:22:20 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Small Joni in Fiction reference Thanks, Rob, but that Joni mention from "Emotionally Weird" by Kate Atkinson is already featured in the new Joni in Fiction section, along with 70 other references! (I believe Catherine McCay is credited with telling us about that one.) But if you want to know what to read next, take a look at Joni in Fiction. She getting mentioned in some pretty surprising and even strange places! Thanks, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:51:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Joni - she talks too much Just a few ruminations on the discussions about Joni's arrogance, or truth-speaking, or whatever you want to call it. I'm so glad Roberto started this whole thing - -for one thing, if this list were just a "Joni-rules! Everything else sucks!" type of thing, it would get verrrry boring after a while. There are lots of things Joni says and does that annoy me. But I take it along with the things I admire most about her. She has guts. She's not afraid to speak her mind if something pisses her off. She steals quotes from other writers - who doesn't? Maybe she's just showing off so people can see how well-read she is! ;) I'm not sure I'd want to get into an argument with her - she might be one of those people who dominates a conversation too much. It would end up in a yelling match - Yeah? So's yer mama! Joni makes a lot of points about the entertainment business that have also been made by others here on this list. We all know it's corrupt. You get the suits with their MBAs in there and all they care about is the bottom line. Not just making profits, but making more better profits. How best to do that than pandering to the tastes of the majority, or better yet, setting those tastes, and then pandering to them? And then changing the rules/tastes just enough so people have to go out and spend even more money. How about creating a monopolies in radio and TV so that we're all forced to listen to the same mindless crappola day after day until we kind of get to like it, because it's all so familiar. It's kind of like the fact that you can drive through any town or suburb in the USA or Canada and find the same familiar (boring) restaurants (so-called) and stores. Drive through Anytown USA or Canada and you'd never know you had left your own hometown. There's Macdonald's and KFC. Over there, there's Pizza Hut. Boring yes, but familiar. Today's pop music is Pizza Hut for the ears and eyes. Add a little sex to get their attention - get Britney to wear as little as possible (while still swearing she's a "good" girl) so people will be sucked in. Joni bites the hand that feeds her. Thank God. Sometimes she says things that are irritating as hell. Sometimes she makes the same points over and over, in case we weren't listening the first time - that can get irritating. I don't know how bitter she is - she really doesn't come across to me as all that bitter (except at times). I think the girl just can't help herself. She said it a while ago: "I talk too loose/ I talk too open and free/ I pay a high price for my open talking/ Like you do for your silent mystery." Anyone who has ever been to a Joni concert or seen the videos or heard the live concerts can bear witness to that - she loves to talk! She can talk about anything! It doesn't make her an expert on the subject she's talking about (Is anyone really an expert on any subject unless you're talking about pure science?) She's always there with an opinion. You might not agree with what she has to say and it can be annoying as hell, but one thing you can always say about Joni - she's not afraid to speak up. She's like a Cassandra or an old-testament prophet - no one wanted to hear what those people had to say. No, I don't always agree with what Joni has to say, but I still want to hear it - along with other people's opinions as well, especially the contentious ones. ______________________________________________________________________ Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:44:25 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: jewels of the sea (njc) > Greetings to all from BEAUTIFUL Pawley's Island, SC, (one of the few islands > Kakki hasn't been on!) :~D Well, this perked me up ;-) How wonderful for you! Coincidently, last night I spent several hours scoping out which Southern Channel Islands and island destinations all down the coast of the Baja peninsula I might try and schedule this year. I always get the nagging thought that I MUST tackle the east coast one of these days, too! I know you have many gems there, plus the sea water is a whole lot warmer than the Pacific! Have a great time - wish we were there! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 20:51:42 +0200 From: "Marian" Subject: Raya O.Coal - Cut All The Strings - NJC Ramona Kasheer will be presenting: Raya O.Coal - Cut All The Strings at 8 p.m. (20:00 hours) on Wednesday, 19 June 2002, at Unplugged, Liechtensteinstrasse 61, 1090 Vienna. Raya O.Coal - vocals Ramona Kasheer - guitar Juergen Mitterlehner - saxophones Toni Burger - violin Reinhard Ziegerhofer - bass Robin Gillard - drums with guest appearances by : Thomas Uhegbu - keyboard Michi Steindl - flute Entrance: 10 Euros Those who attend the concert will be able to purchase the new CD, Cut All The Strings, at the reduced price of 13 Euros (instead of 18 Euros). The new CD from Coalbox Records is being produced in cooperation with Extraplatte and will soon be available online from them at: www.extraplatte.at You can also purchase the newest Broadlahn CD at this location. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 07:47:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: (family) jewels - -- Bob wrote: > **This is very interesting, to say the least. Sounds to me like that > bit > about > the ruby and the black man's ear that Joni allegedly wrote. Now, I > can't help > > but wonder . . .** > > and then yet another Bob wrote: > << assimilating into her song...I put stealing in quotes as I don't > consider it > stealing, only assimilating what she's been exposed to in her own > work. > Surely she doesn't think she could get away with plagiarism of a work > as > wide-read as Romeo & Juliet! > > Besides, perhaps her intent is to get us to read more Willie the > Shake,>>> How now kinsmen...didnt realize there's been discussion already as to the source of this one. There I sat surrounded by the magic of the moment, the darkness of the Festival theatre , completely enraptured with what Romeo was saying and that line jumped out at me! A very cool Joni moment if you can imagine. And if that means more Will in our lives, that's fantastic! As far as Joni 'using' ideas from other places, I have no problem with that at all. Alas, there is nothing new under the sun, now there's the rub. << like Sybil got her son to hear Blue via Adam Duritz! Speaking of > which, my > son came home from beach shopping a couple days ago and told me that > he heard > "Free Man In Paris" in the JC Penney's, which I thought was pretty > cool. Like > her or not, he's definitely got Joni in his veins! ;~)>> how can our children NOT have Joni in their veins...they grew up listening to Joni, even invitro ;-) > > Mags ===== You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:46:05 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) In a message dated 09/06/02 05:44:19 GMT Daylight Time, Murphycopy@aol.com writes: << She was married to Art. Would people have liked her better if she had hooked up with someone else? Maybe. >> Maybe if she'd married Paul instead... Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:50:57 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: through the wall (njc) Wow, Grace. Well said. Good one. By the way, when I was wrestling with Yahoo! Mail last week I think I sent a reply directly to your mailbox. Sorry, that was an accident. Lama Grace said: >Besides, a persons worth does not come from what they do, it comes from just being. we are human beings not human doings. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:07:00 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) On 7 Jun 2002 at 17:26, Kate Bennett wrote: > kakki "I started thinking that this may be less about arrogance> and uppityness and more about maybe a real self-esteem problem and> some kind of inexplicable (to us at least) insecurity on her part. It> makes me feel a little sad for her. I think she is speaking from some> deep hurt that apparently she cannot transcend."> Am I the only one who is a bit uncomfortable with this type of supposition? First, we don't know Joni Mitchell the person. We know Joni Mitchell the commercial artist. And as a commercial artist and popular figure, she knows how to use her forums whether she's speaking to a reporter, four people or four thousand. Second, maybe I'm wrong about this, but she has largely been categorized as arrogant or uppity by the press and members of the industry - the very people who her comments about the state of popular music rail against. (I wonder how her friends would describe her.) Finally, someone commented about how Joni is like a broken record when it comes to criticizing the recording industry. Look around. She is one of the few brave enough to do it on a consistent basis. I truly believe that Joni's persistent voice is one of the small number that paved the way for any organization like the Recording Artists Coalition (http://www.recordingartistscoalition.com/) to exist. > what constantly amazes me is the strength & vision she had back when> she was young, when the music biz was much more of a man's world than> it is now (& it still is)...& how as a very young woman she was able> to carve out her place & manifest her own creative vision...as her> fans we see her success & think oh how wonderful...but the road to> that success i am sure was filled with much pain &> disillusionment...for the music biz attracts the very best & the very> worst of humanity...(perhaps this is why i favor her earlier> recordings...they have more of the flower child innocence...)> The music biz is like any other where people stand to make or lose a lot of money. The biz attracts the very best & the very worst of humanity. Oil, film, software -- any number of things can fill in that blank. Brenda n.p.: Hassan Hakmoun - "This Gift" - ------------------------------Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:16:02 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: ronnie dyson/turntables njc On 3 Jun 2002 at 20:03, mack watson-bush wrote: > Only low point is that they are albums and I worry about the complete > dissolution of turntables, but for now it is okay. Turntables are going to be around. Vinyl sales are were actually up last year and because of DJ culture and big name turntablists, growth is expected to continue. Brenda - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:21:42 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) On 7 Jun 2002 at 17:26, Kate Bennett wrote: > > kakki "I started thinking that this may be less about arrogance > and uppityness and more about maybe a real self-esteem problem and > some kind of inexplicable (to us at least) insecurity on her part. It > makes me feel a little sad for her. I think she is speaking from some > deep hurt that apparently she cannot transcend." > Am I the only one who is a bit uncomfortable with this type of supposition? First, we don't know Joni Mitchell the person. We know Joni Mitchell the commercial artist. And as a commercial artist and popular figure, she knows how to use her forums whether she's speaking to a reporter, four people or four thousand. Second, maybe I'm wrong about this, but she has largely been categorized as arrogant or uppity by the press and members of the industry - the very people who her comments about the state of popular music rail against. (I wonder how her friends would describe her.) Finally, someone commented about how Joni is like a broken record when it comes to criticizing the recording industry. Look around. She is one of the few brave enough to do it on a consistent basis. I truly believe that Joni's persistent voice is one of the small number that paved the way for any organization like the Recording Artists Coalition (http://www.recordingartistscoalition.com/) to exist. > > > what constantly amazes me is the strength & vision she had back when > she was young, when the music biz was much more of a man's world than > it is now (& it still is)...& how as a very young woman she was able > to carve out her place & manifest her own creative vision...as her > fans we see her success & think oh how wonderful...but the road to > that success i am sure was filled with much pain & > disillusionment...for the music biz attracts the very best & the very > worst of humanity...(perhaps this is why i favor her earlier > recordings...they have more of the flower child innocence...) > The music biz is like any other where people stand to make or lose a lot of money. The biz attracts the very best & the very worst of humanity. Oil, film, software -- any number of things can fill in that blank. Brenda n.p.: Hassan Hakmoun - "This Gift" - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:29:51 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: today in bobbie gentry history - njc On 5 Jun 2002 at 9:16, Tyler Hewitt wrote: > Phranc does a nice cover of 'Ode to Billy Joe' (if > there can be such a thing) on her Goofyfoot cd. > I love Shelby Lynne's version - very bluesy, not so much by adding whiskey but perhaps a toke or two of a fat spliff. Brenda n.p.: B.R.M.C. - "Awake" - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:34:41 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) Brenda wrote: > Am I the only one who is a bit uncomfortable with this type of > supposition? First, we don't know Joni Mitchell the person. We know Joni Mitchell the > commercial artist. True, and I don't like to judge where she is coming from, but I think sometimes a general supposition can be made, based on human experience, when you observe anyone bringing up and repeating the same issue over and over. If Joni wants to ensure that as many people as possible know how rotten the music business can be, I think she has accomplished that. But she seems to go beyond that - she takes it very personally and it shows with statements like "no one wants to hear what I have to say anymore." There's nothing wrong with that in my book and I agree with most of her opinions. My thoughts were coming more from a place where I thought she should not be completely judged as arrogant for her statements because she has obviously suffered personally and we might throw her a little slack because of it. To me, it just makes her as human as the next person. I think everyone has things in their lives that have hurt them and those things one cannot resolve tend to be rehashed over and over. I have done this many times and have listened to my friends and family many times go over and over something they can't quite get over. I think it is a common human experience and recognizing it in Joni is not to invade her persona but to recognize she is just as vulnerable as the rest of us. I've also wondered about what she went through in the early days with the music business. On one hand there were many visionaries in the biz that helped promote and nurture many new artists. On the other hand, while the suits with MBAs had not yet arrived, and it was more freewheeling than today, many sectors of the business were controlled or influenced by organized crime. I can't imagine the distaste and even horror of perhaps having to deal with or be remotely affected by those elements. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:59:56 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) On 9 Jun 2002 at 12:34, kakki wrote: > Brenda wrote: > > > Am I the only one who is a bit uncomfortable with this type of > > supposition? First, we don't know Joni Mitchell the person. We know > > Joni > Mitchell the > > commercial artist. > > True, and I don't like to judge where she is coming from, but I think > sometimes a general supposition can be made, based on human > experience, when you observe anyone bringing up and repeating the same > issue over and over. If Joni wants to ensure that as many people as > possible know how rotten the music business can be, I think she has > accomplished that. But she seems to go beyond that - she takes it > very personally and it shows with statements like "no one wants to > hear what I have to say anymore." Two follow-up thoughts on this. How much of Joni's repetition is by design and how much is by selection? Meaning, do we keep hearing this because when she talks, its one of the few things that the press reports? As Catherine noted, she talks a lot. And I'm betting there other things she repeats as much as she does her comments about the business. However, those things may happen to be far less interesting in print. Her comment about no one wanting to hear what she has to say can be a very real response to what she is told by the people who promote and market her records. When they can't get her on the radio or do get her on the radio and the stations get no phones, when you sell 200,000 out of a potential music market of 24 million, it's easy to conclude that "no one" -- meaning the public at large -- wants to hear it. (Especially when you write songs titled "Sex Kills"!) She can't help but take it personally, because the response is to her work specifically when her manager reports back from the VP of radio promotion. But I wouldn't draw the line from that to insecurity or a self esteem issue. I would be very surprised (and disappointed) if she thought any less of her own work because of it. Brenda n.p.: Marvin Gaye - "Distant Lover" - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 13:03:43 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: through the wall/the business today (sjc) On 9 Jun 2002 at 12:34, kakki wrote: > > I've also wondered about what she went through in the early days with > the music business. On one hand there were many visionaries in the > biz that helped promote and nurture many new artists. On the other > hand, while the suits with MBAs had not yet arrived, and it was more > freewheeling than today, many sectors of the business were controlled > or influenced by organized crime. I can't imagine the distaste and > even horror of perhaps having to deal with or be remotely affected by > those elements. The music industry is still freewheeling and there are visionaries outside of the major labels. (There's also a lot of good music being made outside of the majors as well.) And there is still a very large and significant role played by organized crime. Brenda n.p.: Marvin Gaye - "Just to Keep You Satisfied" - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 16:15:11 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) > But I wouldn't draw the line from that to insecurity or a self esteem issue. I would be > very surprised (and disappointed) if she thought any less of her own work because of > it. > > That's basically what I was trying to say in my post, which you summed up rather nicely. I think she just shows her vulnerability because she's a real person with a lot of depth and many facets to her personality...a true artist. In contrast, I wouldn't be surprised if some people who sell millions of records and are mostly in the music business just so they can live a glamourous lifestyle, don't think very much of their own work though they would never admit it. I couldn't begin to pinpoint any specific person but I'm sure this accurately describes some musicians. Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 16:22:17 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: jewels of the sea (njc) I always get the nagging thought that I MUST tackle the > east coast one of these days, too! I know you have many gems there, plus > the sea water is a whole lot warmer than the Pacific! > > Have a great time - wish we were there! > > Kakki Funny, I found the water warmer in the Pacific though maybe its warmer down around Puerto Vallarta. Make sure you put Cumberland Island on your list. I've been twice and both times were very magical. It wasn't so magical getting stuck in a swamp but that definately made the second trip very memorable. Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:02:44 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) Brenda wrote: > Two follow-up thoughts on this. > > How much of Joni's repetition is by design and how much is by selection? Meaning, > do we keep hearing this because when she talks, its one of the few things that the > press reports? As Catherine noted, she talks a lot. And I'm betting there other things > she repeats as much as she does her comments about the business. However, those > things may happen to be far less interesting in print. I totally agree and have maintained here many times in the past in her defense that the press can be selective and take her comments out of context and that we shouldn't take it all at face value. The press generally looks for the one or two controversial snippets and then blows it up, usually out of context. > Her comment about no one wanting to hear what she has to say can be a very real > response to what she is told by the people who promote and market her records. > When they can't get her on the radio or do get her on the radio and the stations get no > phones, when you sell 200,000 out of a potential music market of 24 million, it's easy > to conclude that "no one" -- meaning the public at large -- wants to hear it. (Especially > when you write songs titled "Sex Kills"!) She can't help but take it personally, because > the response is to her work specifically when her manager reports back from the VP of > radio promotion. I do get that. What worries me is that she may be starting to believe it herself to the point of feeling a little insecure about it. > But I wouldn't draw the line from that to insecurity or a self esteem issue. I would be > very surprised (and disappointed) if she thought any less of her own work because of > it. I think she ultimately is very self confident in her work. However, the fact that she would show such a personal vulnerability about it to virtual strangers like myself and a few others here on the list, tells me something deeper is happening. It makes me think that she has experienced some things that have undermined her confidence. I don't think being confident and having a generally high self esteem is mutally exclusive from having doubts and insecurities. In my original response to Azeem and Roberto I was also thinking how she has at times named names and been highly critical or dismissive of other female artists. I think this is one area that has bothered people a lot. It bothers me, not because I don't think she is right in some instances, but I feel for the artists, some of whom name her as their inspiration, getting slammed in print. I always wondered why she would do that - surely from her lofty perch she does not have to put others down, but sometimes people do just that when they are feeling a little pushed out or threatened or maybe insecure in whatever it is they do. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:06:55 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) On 9 Jun 2002 at 14:02, kakki wrote: > > I think she ultimately is very self confident in her work. However, > the fact that she would show such a personal vulnerability about it to > virtual strangers like myself and a few others here on the list, tells > me something deeper is happening. Or she is trying to soften the impression that she is critical and pious. Brenda - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:59:10 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) >How heady and weird it must be for her to go through life with what amounts to occasional media mentions, periodic awards and recognition, and a small legion of people who get it -- when she should be as revered in her lifetime as Cole Porter or John Lennon were in theirs. > well, i DO think that joni is as revered as these folks...almost every songwriter from every generation & genre, male or female puts joni up there at the top of the list of their influences & she has many many fans out there...i guess i just don't see her as someone with a small legion of people who get it...i think a lot of people get it. however, there are fewer people who are be as familiar with her later work as her earlier stuff... my 2 cents about that self esteem thing...i'm with sherelle, i'd just love to be able to sit down with her & tell her how admired she is, how grateful i & so many many others are for her musical contributions...i also agree with grace/colin when she/he speaks of self esteem being an inward thing, but i must add that it when creativity is involved it is also an outward thing...for any this is because the creation is the inner life being made manifest...a very vulnerable & brave thing to do, especially for someone who is basically a private person as i suspect joni is...private, yet her creativity compels her to write these songs then of course put them out for the world to hear...a very complex issue that i think plagues many songwriters who are basically shy & private, yet are compelled to put their innermost thoughts out there for the whole world to hear, admire, dissect, criticize, etc.... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:59:09 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: ******As a rich jewel in an Ethiop's ear****** mags asked, sound familiar? yes, one of my fav joni lines, you stood out like a ruby in a black man's ear...but you all knew that i'm sure...very cool observation mags! can this be considered for the joni in literature part of the website? ;~} ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 15:09:50 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: joni's best guitar playing denny said "IAWK. The rhythmic feel is incredible," what is iawk? i just love the sound of a great rhythm guitar...so, naturally as a rule, i love joni's rhythm guitar songs the bestest...i'd add jonatha brooke to the list of great rhythm guitarists... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 15:30:06 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: joni song on tv last night after a long day of double gigging...got home, i was in my office, jeff plopped down & turned on the tv...all of a sudden i hear joni's trouble child playing under some dialogue...i rushed into see (knocking over my chair!) & the song just kept playing, i think most or all of the song which is rare for tv or movies...anyway it was something on nbc called the 70's a weird mix of fictional story mixed with real footage...the music was really good, especially joni's song... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 15:15:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: (family) jewels, njc 'He said, "Impossible," as he hands you a bone.' Name that source! Lamadoo - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Greetings to all from BEAUTIFUL Pawley's Island, SC, > (one of the few islands Kakki hasn't been on!) :~D LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 23:28:13 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: through the wall (njc) well I didn't get it. there is no need to apologise either way. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama) > Wow, Grace. Well said. Good one. By the way, when I was wrestling with > Yahoo! Mail last week I think I sent a reply directly to your mailbox. > Sorry, that was an accident. > > Lama - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:25:57 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: (family) jewels, njc Lama asks: << 'He said, "Impossible," as he hands you a bone.' Name that source! >> Would that be Wally K, Jim? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 15:38:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) Cool thread. Unaccustomed as I am to posting, I'll keep my remarks here brief. Joni has selective memory. When she says "No one wants to hear what I have to say anymore," it could be she's referring lines like 'Because Elvis gave 'em cars You think I'm cheap' in 'The Windfall'. Like others, I found this song kinda boring but hey, no one can write "Ludwig's Tune" every time out, not even the sainted (but not by me) John Lennon. Remember 'Mingus'? Joni remembers that the jazz press panned it. What I remember is that Leonard Feather not only 'got it', but he praised it to the freakin' skies in "downbeat"! My theory is that she's not interested in 'setting herself on fire for [us] anymore." (Springsteen on the "Greetings From Asburry Park" album I think.) That's okay. Jesus, I'm not complaining that she's been stingy with opening up for her public! But it does mean that we're in a new phase, Phase IV, and the old rules emphatically DON'T apply. Maybe she's written enough. She's written plenty. The lady gave at the office. Next. Lamadoo LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #247 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?