From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #244 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, June 7 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 244 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: graveyards [John Low ] through the wall (njc) ["Robert Holliston" ] Re: Penis Dog NJC ["Grace" ] Re: through the wall ["gene mock" ] Re: Doxie & other Dogs NJC ["Grace" ] Re: Penis Dog NJC ["Grace" ] Re: through the wall ["Grace" ] Re: through the wall (njc) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Joni's crazy sound effects and noises ["Grace" ] Re: Joni's crazy sound effects and noises [Lazyasz@aol.com] Re: through the wall (njc) ["kakki" ] Fwd: GrooveLily E-News #14: June 2002 njc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Conversation [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: through the wall (njc) [Vince Lavieri ] degrees of separation NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: through the wall (njc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IGRlZ3JlZXMgb2Ygc2VwYXJhdGlvbiCgTkpD?= [SCJoniGuy@aol.] The Zappa - Mitchell Connection [Julian Parker-Burns ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 00:37:34 -0700 (PDT) From: John Low Subject: RE: graveyards Kate wrote: "Graveyards are a peaceful yet mysterious place. All these stories of people- -- and no way to know them -- really I love to walk among the headstones and read them and wonder what the person beneath the name looked like and what he did and what she died from and when and of course as a parent the tombstones of children tear at my heart I would very much love to know their stories" I agree with you, Kate! And, this is an opportunity to share with you a beautiful song my brother wrote and sings. Go to: http://simplyaustralia.mountaintracks.com.au/ Click on "Archives" and find, under "Music", the song "At Pennyweight Flat". He wrote it after seeing all the children's graves at this little cemetery in the heart of the 1850s gold rush region of Victoria (Australia). Hope you enjoy it. John (in Sydney) Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 01:06:23 -0700 From: "Robert Holliston" Subject: through the wall (njc) I feel a bit uncomfortable emerging from lurkdom with such a confrontational post. But only a bit, so here goes. First up, I'm not a fan of Neil Young. After The Gold Rush bores me and "My My Hey Hey/Rock and Roll is here to stay:" doesn't strike me as breaking through the wall material, either musically or lyrically. So he now opines that "trained" - i.e., literate - musicians - can't break through the wall as he is so proud of doing. I wonder if he's ever listened to Bartok's String Quartets, Stravinsky's Sacre du Printemps, Boulez's Le Marteau sans Maitre, or any of a few dozen or so twentieth-century masterworks. Hell, I wonder if he's ever listened to anything by Bach, Mozart, Beethoven or Schubert, all of whom sound like avant-garde composers compared to him! As for Joni, she gives me a royal pain in the ass with her fetish for "originality" and her self-importance. I love her work because during the 1970s she really excelled in matching words to music. Even Mingus is a work of genius. But in terms of harmony, there is nothing in Joni's music that would have seemed strange in the 16th century. The 14th century would have found her music very conservative. After Shadows and Light, try as I have since I joined the list, I find her albums tiresome and strained, with the partial exception of Night Ride Home (three cuts) and Turbulent Indigo (two). Patrick Leader's post about dancing and architecture really woke me up. Yup, I'm back, for better or worse ;-) Roberto _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:08:10 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: Penis Dog NJC > Are you sure she isn't a snake? arrgh! No. I HATE snakes. Can't even see one on tv without picking my feet off the floor. Of course I was exaggerating about her length....... > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca > - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 02:02:30 -0700 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: through the wall - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Holliston" To: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 1:06 AM Subject: through the wall (njc) > I feel a bit uncomfortable emerging from lurkdom with such a confrontational > post. But only a bit, so here goes. > First up, I'm not a fan of Neil Young. After The Gold Rush bores me and "My I think what Neil is trying to say is you got to "break rules" in order to sing or write from the soul. Granted early Neil Young is not lyrically complicated compared to his more recent recordings. but nonetheless, I owned most of Neil's recordings. Why? Because there is a bit of honesty and soul when I listen to him. I know this guys sings off key, but I'm mesmerized by his performances. Don't tell me you were bored w/ Neil's "Ohio", "Down By the River", "Cowgirl in the Sand", "Long May You Run", "The Needle and the Damage Done", and when he plays with Crazy Horse------he really rocks. That's soul------from the heart. "As for Joni, she gives me a royal pain in the ass with her fetish for "originality" and her self-importance. I love her work because during the 1970s she really excelled in matching words to music. Even Mingus is a work of genius. But in terms of harmony, there is nothing in Joni's music that would have seemed strange in the 16th century. The 14th century would have found her music very conservative. After Shadows and Light, try as I have since I joined the list, I find her albums tiresome and strained, with the partial exception of Night Ride Home (three cuts) and Turbulent Indigo (two)." As far as your remark about Joni after Shadows and Light-----------You and Joni took a fork in the road. Sure she could keep on doing the same old stuff that got her following, but she had to keep on growing artistically in a different direction. Sorta like your friends in college are probably not the same friends you have now because your goals and their goals are different. My life has grown so that I can relate to just about every album she has done. Maybe because we are about the same age might have something to do with it. IMHO Joni and Neil are all about "breaking the wall (rules)" so that they do sound different. Isn't that the problem w/ music today? Everything sounds the same--------same music, same lyrical topic, same looking groups. Homogenized!!!!!!!!! later gene ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:13:14 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: Doxie & other Dogs NJC > My mom had three, very high spirited dogs - train them early because they can be > stubborn, don't let them get away with anything becuse they are cute and puppies > because they are very intelligent and once they get their way they do not > relinquish - but they are wonderful dogs, will always have a fondness for doxies. > > don't worry. I have had Lhasa Apso for the last 30 years and they are really stubborn! I know how to deal with that! Chip started to howl at 7.30 this morning. I normally get up between then at 8am. But I wasn't going to allow her to think i came at ehr command so I put my earplugs in and slept some more. I came down at 8 and she was quiet and asleep. The other dogs don't know what to make of her. Martha the matriarch just gives her the evil eye. Brad is not sure at all what she is. Dayna is frightened by her. Doris looks puzzled and thinks somehting strange has happened to her one of her puppies. Charlotte thinks she is great and they are friends already. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:15:41 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: Penis Dog NJC - ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Remote To: Grace ; Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 1:44 AM Subject: Re: Penis Dog NJC > We call them Dachshunds, but some people call them "weiner dogs", > and yes weiner or weenie is slang for penis in the US. My mom had > one (a Dachshund, not a penis), and it was a nice little dog, full of > energy and spirit. > yes she certainly isn't frightened of anything. I much prefer her to the Standard variety. Could have had one fot hose. But Chip took my eye. Her mother is lovely. They do not seem as exaggerrated as the Standards. More compact and not so long and heavy. She took to the lead staright away too. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:23:13 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: through the wall > As for Joni, she gives me a royal pain in the ass with her fetish for > "originality" and her self-importance. I love her work because during the > 1970s she really excelled in matching words to music. Even Mingus is a work > of genius. But in terms of harmony, there is nothing in Joni's music that > would have seemed strange in the 16th century. The 14th century would have > found her music very conservative. > After Shadows and Light, try as I have since I joined the list, I find her > albums tiresome and strained, with the partial exception of Night Ride Home > (three cuts) and Turbulent Indigo (two). > What a brave man you are roberto! I pretty much think the same in regard to your first sentence.(here we would suggest she is 'up herself') Don't know anything about the middle part regarding centuries ago. Disagree with you about her later work. I love it, with NRH and TI being among my faves. You know, one of the things i really miss about pre-internet is not knowing much, if anything, about Joni or Carly. They were an enigma to me and therefore I could hold them up and have my own little fantasy about them. Now I can't. I really miss that. Knwoing so much has taken the shine off them for me. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 05:20:07 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: through the wall (njc) Hey Roberto, I can't let you be the only to raise a head above the parapets! First, Neil Young. I'm not a huge fan, but I do like a lot of his stuff. I even like his first album, which seems to be something of a minority interest ("The Loner" is a terrific song). His renaissance in the 90s was as heartening as it was unexpected. HOWEVER! Paul Weller, that firebrand of the 70s and 80s, once said in an interview, in recognition of his unusually high hot air/fair comment ratio in his conversation, the following: "90% of what I've said has been complete and utter bollocks." Substitute the word "garbage" for "bollocks" and throw in a bit of humility, and Neil Young might have said that. It wasn't just his muse that went walkabout in the 80s - his brain seemed to too. I remember his lurches across the political spectrum and his violently homophobic pronouncements as well as the inxplicable Trans album. So, a pinch of salt with what he's apparently been saying about music. Then there's Joni with the economy-sized chip on her shoulder. This is not to forget that she can be the most engaging conversationalist around, as heard in live recordings, interviews and by those of us lucky enough to have met her. Still, she IS always banging on about how there's nobody with any talent out there, formula junk food for girlie guile, blah blah blah. I wish she'd stop moaning about the dearth of good songs being written and music being made and start listening to [insert name of your fave unsung genius here]. It might buck her ideas up a bit - as it is, she's in danger of becoming the Norma Desmond of the popular song. As to the vexed question of her post S&L output, I agree with you, and I've probably said enough about that in the past. And I have to confess (and I know I'm always banging on about this!) that Both Sides Now completely lost its appeal for me after a couple of listens; once I'd admired the beautiful arrangements and the lush sound, there was nothing left to enjoy, and I don't even have it any more. Azeem in London NP: Paraguay v Spain (yes, watching yet more football!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:24:23 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: Joni's crazy sound effects and noises - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:53 AM Subject: Re: Joni's crazy sound effects and noises > Can we count as sound effect the "angry spoken words" in "Harry's House"? > I love that "I said, get down over there". I like it to but I have always heard 'get down off of there' and it has always stuck in my mind because of using off and of together. Not that it is wrong, just sounds odd. > joseph > whose favorite is still HOSL > - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:26:58 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: through the wall nothing to add-just removing the NJC - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 10:20 AM Subject: Re: through the wall (njc) > Hey Roberto, > > I can't let you be the only to raise a head above the parapets! > > First, Neil Young. I'm not a huge fan, but I do like a lot of his stuff. I > even like his first album, which seems to be something of a minority interest > ("The Loner" is a terrific song). His renaissance in the 90s was as > heartening as it was unexpected. > > HOWEVER! Paul Weller, that firebrand of the 70s and 80s, once said in an > interview, in recognition of his unusually high hot air/fair comment ratio in > his conversation, the following: "90% of what I've said has been complete and > utter bollocks." Substitute the word "garbage" for "bollocks" and throw in a > bit of humility, and Neil Young might have said that. It wasn't just his > muse that went walkabout in the 80s - his brain seemed to too. I remember > his lurches across the political spectrum and his violently homophobic > pronouncements as well as the inxplicable Trans album. So, a pinch of salt > with what he's apparently been saying about music. > > Then there's Joni with the economy-sized chip on her shoulder. This is not > to forget that she can be the most engaging conversationalist around, as > heard in live recordings, interviews and by those of us lucky enough to have > met her. Still, she IS always banging on about how there's nobody with any > talent out there, formula junk food for girlie guile, blah blah blah. I wish > she'd stop moaning about the dearth of good songs being written and music > being made and start listening to [insert name of your fave unsung genius > here]. It might buck her ideas up a bit - as it is, she's in danger of > becoming the Norma Desmond of the popular song. > > As to the vexed question of her post S&L output, I agree with you, and I've > probably said enough about that in the past. And I have to confess (and I > know I'm always banging on about this!) that Both Sides Now completely lost > its appeal for me after a couple of listens; once I'd admired the beautiful > arrangements and the lush sound, there was nothing left to enjoy, and I don't > even have it any more. > > Azeem in London > NP: Paraguay v Spain (yes, watching yet more football!) > - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 05:22:48 EDT From: Lazyasz@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's crazy sound effects and noises The Reocurring Dream - enough said The Jungle Line - the drums, the background chanting, and Joni's little "...the drums, the drums, it's the drums, the drums, the drums" (BTW is The Jungle Line the first known example of sampling and tape-looping in music, cause they seemed totally unique at the time) The Hissing of Summer Lawns - the little percussion effect which makes it sound as if one is walking on grass God Must Be A Boogie Man - The background choir of institution escapees (Are all those voices Joni's or did she have some of the band fill that in?) The Magdeline Laundries - following of the 90's trend of Joan adding ambient synth layers to flesh out her songs ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 02:22:47 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: through the wall (njc) Azeem, I agree she has been quite repetitive with this for a number of years now. She even started in on it when I spoke with her last September, but mostly to say how no one wants to hear her anymore. I've heard from another friend who has spoken a bit with her recently and she went on and on along the same subjects with him. I started thinking that this may be less about arrogance and uppityness and more about maybe a real self-esteem problem and some kind of inexplicable (to us at least) insecurity on her part. It makes me feel a little sad for her. I think she is speaking from some deep hurt that apparently she cannot transcend. Don't mean to psychoanalyze her - just my 2 cents. Kakki > Then there's Joni with the economy-sized chip on her shoulder. This is not > to forget that she can be the most engaging conversationalist around, as > heard in live recordings, interviews and by those of us lucky enough to have > met her. Still, she IS always banging on about how there's nobody with any > talent out there, formula junk food for girlie guile, blah blah blah. I wish > she'd stop moaning about the dearth of good songs being written and music > being made and start listening to [insert name of your fave unsung genius > here]. It might buck her ideas up a bit - as it is, she's in danger of > becoming the Norma Desmond of the popular song. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 07:44:03 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Fwd: GrooveLily E-News #14: June 2002 njc I thought I'd pass this info on for those of you who have had the pleasure of Groovin' with the Lily. For those of you who have not, what are you waiting for? They are power pop with electric violin. They'll be headlining the Bottom Line in NYC on June 21st! Patrick please try to catch this show with Kay! You'll thank me later. They've got a whole US tour scheduled well into 2003. If they're in your neck of the wood, do yourself a favor...check em out. Their energy is just refreshing. rose in nj pushin' the petals Return-Path: Received: from rly-xh03.mx.aol.com (rly-xh03.mail.aol.com [172.20.115.232]) by air-xh05.mail.aol.com (v86.11) with ESMTP id MAILINXH54-0606235350; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 23:53:50 -0400 Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by rly-xh03.mx.aol.com (v86_r1.12) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXH37-0606235322; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 23:53:22 -0400 Received: from pool0080.cvx32-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.157.80] helo=209.179.157.80) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GAeK-0004Aj-00; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 20:42:53 -0700 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 23:31:21 -0400 From: GrooveLily Subject: GrooveLily E-News #14: June 2002 To: friends_and_listeners@groovelily.com X-Priority: 3 Message-ID: <20020606234343-r01010700-dddf34a8-0922-0108@209.179.157.80> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.6 (Bluto) G r o o v e L i l y E - N e w s # 1 4 June 2002 A Mostly Monthly E-Newsletter by and about GrooveLily Valerie Vigoda: vocals/violin Brendan Milburn: keys/vocals Gene Lewin: drums and often, with sideputians: Jon Warcholak: bass/jumping up and down* (*temporary substitute sideputian: the fabulous Malcolm Gold) Chris Tarrow: guitar/maintaining a cool air of mystery ***** The Texas sky is cerulean blue. The southwestern air is hot but somehow feels good, unlike the sooty magma asphalt steam of Manhattan. We jog near the hotel, and everyone waves a polite hello. At the ranch where the Kerrville Festival is held, the standard greeting is "Welcome home!" It's enough to refresh the tiredest New York soul. ***** 1. Closing The Show Again At Kerrville June 7, With Webcast 24 Hours Later 2. GrooveLily Headlines NYC's Legendary Club, The Bottom Line: Friday, June 21! 3. Our Debut On "Car Talk": The Odometer Song 4. Whammy Awards! 5. New Logo On Main Page 6. "Just The Three Of Us" LIVE CD Delayed Slightly, But Not Much. Promise. 7. First Cruise Deadline Is Actually This Month (June 15) 8. Petal Pushers Are Going Strong 9. Kids Are Drawing GrooveLily! Check Out These Talented Folks 10. Upcoming GrooveLily Shows 11. Choice Lyric Of The Month 12. What We're Listening To ************************************************************************** 1. Closing The Show Again At Kerrville June 7, With Webcast 24 Hours Later ************************************************************************** Last year, at our biggest performance to date, we closed the show after Peter, Paul and Mary at the legendary Kerrville Folk Festival. It went so well that we were immediately asked back; and tomorrow night (Friday, June 7), we'll be closing the show again! AND: if you can't be there in person, you can check it out online, webcast precisely 24 hours after we begin playing. The concert begins at 6 PM (first up is our buddy and wonderful, hilarious singer/songwriter Eric Schwartz -- rumor has it we may even be joining him onstage during his set). GrooveLily plays at approximately 11 PM, Central time. To listen to the webcast on Saturday, June 8, go to www.kerrville-music.com and follow the links. Enjoy! ***************************************************************************** ** 2. GrooveLily Headlines NYC's Legendary Club, The Bottom Line: Friday, June 21! ***************************************************************************** ** In just 2 weeks, we'll be playing our largest NYC show ever: headlining at the Bottom Line (with the full 5-piece band!). We've worked our way up over the years, first playing a short set there at the "Required Listening" series, then opening for Bo Diddley and others, and recently doing a co-bill with the unfortunately-now-defunct band Blueground Undergrass. We are thrilled to be the actual headliners now, and invite any and all of you to please come and join us on Friday, June 21!! There will be 2 excellent opening acts: Willy Porter, and the Road Dog Divas. Also: you'll notice that we're playing on a weekend night in New York City (always a no-no when you're trying to get those elusive "industry" people out to a show, since they're required to be in the Hamptons on Friday nights). Well, we've decided that catering to our loyal listeners is a lot more important than catering to the suits; so thanks again to everyone who has come out over the years on Mondays and Tuesdays and Wednesdays and Thursdays, and let's have some Friday night fun for a change. Record executives who don't feel like going to the beach are welcome to come too. (All the cool people will be there.) ********************************************* 3. Our Debut On "Car Talk": The Odometer Song ********************************************* We missed it, but it happened on Saturday, May 25: part of "The Odometer Song" was played on everyone's favorite nationally-syndicated auto-repair radio show, "Car Talk." We've had a bunch of requests for this song, which was originally recorded on the "Brendan and the Extenuating Circumstances" CD (now temporarily out of print). We're very glad you like it; it's our favorite driving song too. You can find a medium-quality MP3 of that original recording on our website anytime till the record is reprinted, AND: A new, live version of the tune will be released on our upcoming "Just The Three Of Us" CD, scheduled for release in about a month. ***************** 4. Whammy Awards! ***************** We love Winthrop University, home of our favorite college Student Activities Director, the extremely vivacious Boyd Jones. Winthrop is the kind of place where you pull up in the van, exhausted from a long drive, and you're swarmed in the parking lot by enthusiastic students who want nothing more than to help you unload and carry equipment. There's a construction-paper star on the dressing room door, and after being there for 15 minutes you can't help but start having a great time. It's a small school in Rock Hill, SC, with a very very big heart. We are honored to receive the following "Winthrop Whammy" awards this year: 1. BEST PERFORMING ARTS: MUSIC ACT 2. MOST TALENTED ACT We're also honored to be in the top 10 for the following Whammies: 1. ACT WHO MADE THE BIGGEST IMPACT 2. NICEST ACT 3. ACT WE WOULD MOST LIKE TO MAKE A WINTHROP TRADITION 4. OVERALL BEST ACT OF THE YEAR (WINTHROP ENTERTAINER OF THE YEAR) Thank you, Winthrop! ************************ 5. New Logo On Main Page ************************ Yep. ************************************************************************** 6. "Just The Three Of Us" LIVE CD Delayed Slightly, But Not Much. Promise. ************************************************************************** OK, getting it done by June was just a bit too ambitious...sorry about that. All the artwork is finished and waiting at the duplication house; and as soon as we can get the final master to them, the turnaround time will be only 1 week, they say. So, if we can get to mastering by the week of June 24th, a July release date looks highly likely. We are working hard on the CD, restricted only by our own limited time between gigs and the rather full schedule of our mixing engineer (a.k.a. frequent GrooveLily guitarist Chris Tarrow). Thank you for your understanding, and for being part of the Quality Music Revolution! ********************************************************* 7. First Cruise Deadline Is Actually This Month (June 15) ********************************************************* In our last newsletter, we wrote that the first deadline for signing up for the GrooveLily cruise was May 31. That has been CHANGED by Fan Club Cruises: the deadline is actually June 15! So, here's the pertinent info once more. The first-ever GrooveLily Concert Cruise to the Bahamas is scheduled for November 15-18, 2002. If you're interested in spending 4 days and 3 nights with us, cruising to the Bahamas on our own special section of Carnival Cruise Line's "Fascination": Call the Fan Club Cruises desk at Belair Travel & Cruises at (800) 638-0827, or register online at www.fanclubcruises.com. Hope you can join us. Fruity drinks with umbrellas! Good music! Shuffleboard? We still don't know. If you sign up by JUNE 15, you'll receive a special extra surprise. ********************************* 8. Petal Pushers Are Going Strong ********************************* We are incredibly happy to report that our Petal Pusher community is continuing to grow, and to make some amazing things happen. Rob Bond, Petal Pusher Coordinator, has been tirelessly organizing the troops (thank you, Rob!); and what began as a few people putting up some flyers has turned into a formidable grassroots publicity and promotional force. Petal Pushers currently range in age from 13 to 55, are located all over the United States from New England to California, and are committed to accelerating the progress of GrooveLily and the entire Quality Music Revolution (while having lots of fun). Petal Pushers have organized/hosted/promoted concerts, arranged for radio and press coverage, held strategy meetings, filled the discussion board with interesting anecdotes, reviews and ideas...and even become friends. We love meeting PPs in every town, and feel incredibly blessed to have them in our lives. If you'd like to be a part of this exciting group, check out the Petal Pushers area on our website to find out more. www.groovelily.com/index2.html?petalpushers ************************************************************** 9. Kids Are Drawing GrooveLily! Check Out These Talented Folks ************************************************************** There are some amazing and extremely young artists coming to our shows these days. We've been the lucky recipients of GrooveLily-In-Action drawings several times lately, and are proud to display them on our site. Four lovely works of art will be added to our site this coming Monday (as soon as we get back from Kerrville). Check 'em out in the gallery anytime AFTER June 10 at: www.groovelily.com/index2.html?gallery ***************************** 10. Upcoming GrooveLily Shows ***************************** Friday, June 7, 2002 Kerrville, TX Kerrville Folk Festival approx 11 PM, we close the show! 830-257-3600, www.kerrville-music.com Saturday, June 8, 2002 WEBCAST of Kerrville show! www.kerrville-music.com Thursday, June 13, 2002 Cambridge, MA Club Passim 47 Palmer St 8:00 p.m. Tickets: $10 for non-members, $8 for members. www.clubpassim.org, 617-492-7679 Friday, June 14, 2002 Pawling , NY Towne Crier Cafe 130 Route 22 9:00 p.m. Tickets: $17.50, $15 for members. Web: www.townecrier.com. Phone: 845-855-1300. We'll split the bill with Bob Malone. Saturday, June 15, 2002 Bedford, MA Arts for All! Festival, Bedford Center for the Arts Town Hall Grounds, under the tent 3:00 p.m. Tickets: $6, with a $20 per family max, Children under 5 are FREE. Web: www.bedfordarts.org/fair.html. Phone: 781-276-0700. Thursday, June 20, 2002 Norwood, NY Concerts on the Village Green 7-9 p.m. free outdoor concert. 315-353-2437. http://humber.northnet.org/vilgrnconcerts/ Friday, June 21, 2002 New York, NY The Bottom Line 15 West 4th Street 7:30 p.m. & 10:30 p.m. Tickets: $15.00 General Admission. Web: www.bottomlinecabaret.com. Phone: 212-228-6300. GrooveLily will be headlining both shows. Also on the bill are opening acts Willie Porter and from New Orleans, The Road Dog Divas. Friday, June 28, 2002 Bethlehem, PA Godfrey Daniels 7 E 4th St 8:00 p.m. Web: www.godfreydaniels.org Phone: 610-867-2390 Reservations can be made over the phone or at the web site. Sunday, June 30, 2002 Sterling, VA Claude Moore Park 6:00-7:30 p.m. Free concert sponsored by Loudoun County Parks & Recreation, 703-771-5308. Rainsite: Parkview High School Monday, July 1, 2002 Cullowhee, NC University Center Lawn Western Carolina University 7:00 p.m. Tickets: Free. Phone: 828-227-7206. This is part of the Universities Summer Concert Series. Bring a blanket or lawn chair. Sunday, July 7, 2002 Columbia, MD Panzers House Concert call Steve or Sherry for reservations 7:00 p.m. 410-531-9233 or e-mail spanzers@cs.com. Seating is limited, so reservations required. Wednesday, July 10, 2002 West Chester, PA Temenos Conference and Retreat Center 1564 Telegraph Road 7:30 p.m. Tickets: $14 advance, $15 at the door. Web: www.temenosretreat.org. Phone: 610-696-8145 tickets, info. Lingering Doubts opens. For directions, go to their web site, above. Friday, July 12, 2002 Croton-on-Hudson, NY Senasqua Park, outdoors, on the Hudson River 7-9 p.m. 914-271-3006 for info. Free! The five piece band! In case of rain, concert will be held at C.E.T. Elementary School, Croton on Hudson NY, Croton Day Camp 914-271-3670. It is located on Wood Road, just off Route 129/Maple Street. Saturday, July 13, 2002 Clinton, NJ Black Potatoe Music Festival Red Mill Museum, 56 Main St 7:00 p.m. Web: www.blackpotatoe.com. Phone: 908-735-4220. Part of a three-day music festival, Check out their web site for info on the other acts, including Levon Helm later on Saturday evening. Sunday, July 14, 2002 Lake Hopatcong, NJ Lake Winona 3:00 p.m. Tickets: $16.00 General Admission, $13.00 Members, $8.00 Children. Web: www.lwca.cjb.net. Phone: 973-663-1174. Guitarist John Sheehan opens the show at 2:30 p.m. Tickets are limited. For more information on this outdoor event, go to the web site, or call/leave message at the Lake Winona Civic Center. Thursday, July 25, 2002 Cary, NC Six String Cafe and Music Hall US 1 at Hwy 64, McGregor Village Shopping Ctr 8:00 p.m. Tickets: $7.00. Web: www.sixstringcafe.com. Phone: 919-469-3667. Sunday, July 28, 2002 Asheville, NC Bele Chere Festival 1:45PM GrooveLily will be performing on the Rock N Roll stage. Tuesday, July 30, 2002 Ticonderoga, NY Ticonderoga Festival Tent downtown, big top on the lawn of the community building 8:00 p.m. tfguild@capital.net or 518-585-6716 for info Saturday, August 3, 2002 Germantown, MD BlackRock Center for the Arts 12900 Middlebrook Rd 8:00 p.m. Free outdoor concert. Phone: 301-528-2263. Web: www.blackrockcenter.org Friday, August 9, 2002 Morristown, NJ Minstrel Coffeehouse 300 Mendham Rd (Rt 24) 8:30 p.m. Web: www.FolkProject.org. Email: Minstrel@FolkProject.org. Tickets $6.00 (plus donation requested at break). SPECIAL OUTDOOR CONCERT -- (in case of rain, indoors). This is the regular Minstrel Coffeehouse location, just a specail outdoor event. 973-335-9489. Saturday, August 10, 2002 Bethlehem, PA Bethlehem Musikfest, Leiderplatz Stage 7:00-8:30 p.m. www.musikfest.org We'll be playing with the full five-piece band. Thursday, August 22, 2002 Ottawa, CN The World Exchange Plaza Downtown Ottawa 12:00 p.m. This is a free lunchtime series preceding the Folk Festival. August 23-25, 2002 Ottawa, CN Ottawa Folk Festival TBA Various workshops & performances during weekend. www.ottawafolk.org Wednesday, August 28, 2002 Plymouth, MA Plymouth Concert Series Water Street (near Plymouth Rock) 8:00 p.m. Web: www.project-arts.com. Opening act is Bait The Hook from Maine. Friday, August 30, 2002 Kerrville, TX Kerrville Wine & Music Festival TBA 830-257-3600, www.kerrville-music.com Friday, September 6, 2002 Lansing, MI Creole Gallery 1218 Turner St 8:00 p.m. $10/$8 tickets. Phone: 517-489-9549 Web: www.creolegallery.com Saturday, September 7, 2002 Bowling Green, OH Black Swamp Arts Festival downtown 2:40-3:40 p.m. 419-353-1361 www.blackswamparts.org Sunday, September 8, 2002 Ann Arbor, MI The Ark 316 S Main St 7:30 p.m. 734-761-1451 www.a2ark.org Monday, September 9, 2002 Grand Rapids, MI One Trick Pony 136 East Fulton 7:00 p.m. Hat Trick Concert Series. www.wyce.org. 616-456-5461 Ext 259 for info Sept 13 and 14, 2002 (Fri-Sat) Maplewood, NJ Underground Concerts Maplewood Public Library, Lower Level, 51 Baker St 8:00 p.m. Tickets: $15/$12/$7. Web: www.undergroundconcerts.com. Phone: 973-762-0119. For directions, reservations, and info. Saturday, September 21, 2002 Erie, PA Erie Maritime Museum 150 E Front Street -- On Lake Erie 8:00 p.m. Beautiful outdoor amphitheater (or comfortable theater setting indoors if it rains). Free. 814-452-2744 or www.brigniagara.org Monday, September 23, 2002 Lexington, KY Woodsongs Old-Time Radio Hour 214 Main Street, Kentucky Theater 7:00 p.m. Tickets: $5.00. Web: www.woodsongs.com. Phone: 859-252-8888. This live interview and performance is taped at the Kentucky Theater, you can get tickets to be in the audience, or you can hear it in live webcast starting at 6:30 p.m.EST. The show is taped and rebroadcast about 6-8 weeks later on over 250 stations across the US and the world. Check your local listings. Wednesday, October 9, 2002 Sykesville, MD Baldwin's Station and Pub 7168 Main St 8:00 p.m. $14.00 tickets. Advance tickets recommended, at 410-795-1041 Friday, October 11, 2002 Vienna, VA Jammin Java 231 Maple Ave E 7:30 p.m. and 9:30 p.m. $14.00 tickets. www.jamminjava.com, 703-255-1566. Advance tickets suggested. Saturday, October 19, 2002 West Jefferson, NC Ashe County High School 7:30 p.m. Web: www.ipmd.info. This performance is a benefit for the Lighthouse Ministries Food Bank. Friday, October 25, 2002 Dallas, TX Uncle Calvin's North Park Presbyterian Church, 9555 North Central Expressway 8:00 p.m. 214-349-1229. A great room for live music. Sunday, October 27, 2002 Chapel Hill (near Brenham), TX Providence Church on the main street, "under the water tower" 3:00 p.m. Flowers in the Desert House Concerts, 979-836-6088, www.houseconcerts.com -- Brenham Concerts Link music@houseconcerts.com Saturday, November 2, 2002 Harrison, AR Lyric Theater (sponsored by Buffalo River Concerts) 113 W Rush Ave 8:00 p.m. Tickets and info: 870-391-3504 Sunday, November 3, 2002 Mound Ridge, KS Old Settlers Inn 118 S Christian 4:30 p.m. 620-345-2733. www.oldsettlersinn.org Friday, November 8, 2002 Maplewood (St Louis), MO Focal Point 2720 Sutton Ave 8:00 p.m. Tickets: $12.00 Advance Purchase, $15.00 At the Door. Web: www.acousticcity.org. Phone: 314-781-4200, or 314-935-7576. Co-sponsored by Acoustic City and The Focal Point. Saturday, November 9, 2002 Hinsdale, IL Acoustic Renaissance Concerts (ARC) Unitarian Church of Hinsdale, 17 W Maple 8:00 p.m. 708-802-0236 tickets (MC/Visa accepted) www.acousticren.com Friday, November 15 - Monday, November 18, 2002 GrooveLily Cruise! Saturday, January 11, 2003 Watchung, NJ Watchung Arts Center 18 Stirling Rd 8:00 p.m. 908-753-0190 www.watchungarts.org/Folk Saturday, January 18, 2003 Bedford, MA A New Song Coffeehouse First Church of Christ, Congregationalist, 25 The Great Road 8:00 p.m. 781-275-1135 Saturday, March 8, 2003 Paramus, NJ The Hurdy Gurdy Central Unitarian Church, Main Room, 156 Forest Ave 8:00 p.m. 201-447-2716 Saturday, March 15, 2003 Titusville, NJ Unitarian Universalist Church @ Washington Crossing 268 Washington Crossing-Pennington Rd 8:00 p.m. Concerts at the Crossing -- we return, this time as a trio! Tickets $16.00. www.crossingconcerts.com Saturday, June 21, 2003 Westfield, NJ First United Methodist Church of Westfield 1 East Broad St (corner of North Ave) 8:00 p.m. Coffee With Conscience Concert Series. 908-233-4211 or 908-232-8723. www.coffeewithconscience.com ***************************** 11. Choice Lyric Of The Month ***************************** Anything from "Urinetown." We caught this terrific, hip Broadway show last week on Val's birthday, and don't yet have the album or lyrics to refer to; but it is clever, witty in all our favorite ways, and well worth checking out. Sardonic, Brechtian, funny, well-written...and now adorned with Tony awards. Bravo! www.urinetown.com *************************** 12. What We're Listening To *************************** Well, unfortunately we're listening to our live album tracks. More new picks next month. :) Total Speculation Department: We can't recommend it yet, since we haven't heard it...but we bet that Patty Griffin's new album is probably a jewel. Please let us know what you think! ********************************************************** email: us@groovelily.com web site: www.groovelily.com ********************************************************** If you have received this message in error, or if you would like to unsubscribe from this list, simply send an email with "unsubscribe" in the subject heading (body text doesn't matter) to us@groovelily.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:31:23 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Conversation <> Yes Matt, your hunch is correct...her earlier performances of "Conversation" included the extra lyrics, and most of us 'old-timers' have a recording or two of her singing them. If you'd like copies for yourself, I'll be happy to set you up for blanks & postage. If I've learned one thing about Joni here, it's that her official catalogue is just the tip of the iceberg to appreciating her work...like Dr. Seuss says in "On Beyond Zebra": "Some people stop at the Z, but not me!" :~) Bob NP: Tom Waits, "Please Wake Me Up" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:33:46 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: through the wall (njc) kakki wrote: > I started thinking that this may be less about arrogance > and uppityness and more about maybe a real self-esteem problem and some kind > of inexplicable (to us at least) insecurity on her part. It makes me feel a > little sad for her. I think she is speaking from some deep hurt that > apparently she cannot transcend. Don't mean to psychoanalyze her - just my 2 > cents. Kakki, I agree 100% havig never met her. I can see it in her eyes, the way she looks at the audience, when she performs. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:35:54 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: degrees of separation NJC I can't do it, but can anyone connect Joni with Bobbie Gentry? Vince I made this njc because it is not a serious Joni question and I am afraid of the Joni-onlies ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:37:49 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: through the wall (njc) <> I don't think you're psychoanalyzing at all, Kakki...it's difficult, probably impossible, to care about an artist's work and not care about the artist as well, particularly when she has "sondtracked" so many life experiences for a lot of us. I feel like we all like to revel in her victories and are sympathetic in her sorrows. And I think (like Lama so poignantly described) that her relationship with her daughter and her mother has been such a powerful driver for her all along, I think a lot of what factors into her bitterness is the conflicted relationship with Kilauren. Bob NP: Tom Waits, "More Than Rain" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:42:57 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IGRlZ3JlZXMgb2Ygc2VwYXJhdGlvbiCgTkpD?= Bobbie Gentry & Glen Campbell recorded an album together...I remember them together on his TV show a lot as well. I guess they were probably more than just musical partners... Anyway, Glen does a very pretty version of...do I have to say it? ;~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 06:00:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Parker-Burns Subject: The Zappa - Mitchell Connection Hello All, Just wanted to delurk on this one... Zappa has mentioned Joni Mitchell in his Billy the Mountain epic, "...by the frozen beef pies was Joni Mitchell's autograph..." or something like that from "Just Another Band from LA" album. I will say again what I said ages ago: Joni is a true artist. She may be adored by many and scorned by others but she remains honest to her art and continues to be the underlying inspiration to many, many others who came after her who, perhaps, have had more commercial success. The same goes for Zappa, Beefheart, Laura Nyro, Yoko Ono, Annette Peacock, Harry Partch, Lord Buckley, Raymond Scott, Diamanda Galas and many more, I'm sure...all folks who remained true to their vision however commercially unacceptable it may have been and have all been acknowledged as real groundbreakers and inspirations to what found it's way in to the top 40. (Just my two cents). On other Joni fields...Here in Taiwan I just came across "Shadows & Light" on DVD and quickly purchased it. Overall, very cool and a joy to see these songs played by people I've had so much respect for...but perhaps the biggest thrill was to see the Westcoast early 80s crowd in all their hair and beads and mellow clothes...beaming back at Joni (with that silly perm, no less). Jaco's Third Stone jam was a treat as well. It's interesting to see Joni as a video maker. With the tools at her disposal at that time she did a fine job...what would she do nowadays if whe were to do it again. Very happy to add it to my collection. On the subject of sound effects...Perhaps one of my favorite Joni tunes is from Dog Eat Dog (yes, really, no foolin') "Empty (Try Another)"...for its looped cigarette machine. Take care all, Julian ===== Julian's Art Gallery can be seen at: http://community.webshots.com/user/julianparkerburns Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:08:39 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: through the wall (njc) I think she has more confidence in herself than perhaps she's willing to admit. Why else would she be putting out this double CD? I think what we have now is a more mature Joni. Yep, she's the mature artist now and about to receive her reward. I'm psyched! I'll follow whichever way her artistic endeavers lead. just my 2 cents an optimistic rose in nj ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:41:10 EDT From: ZZScotty@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's crazy sound effects and noises Not quite on point, but: Two weeks ago I had the privilege of camping in a remote area inside Big Bend National Park (in the gorgeous Chihuahuan desert). Around dusk one evening, when the cicadas were chirping, I turned on Night Ride Home, on the car's cd player, with the doors open. Each time I increased the volume, the cicadas got louder. By the time I got the volume up to about the loudest it ever gets, the cicadas were chirping so loudly that they almost drowned out Joni. It was a wonderful experience. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:59:49 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20degrees=20of=20separation=20=A0NJC?= In a message dated 07/06/02 13:43:25 GMT Daylight Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: << Bobbie Gentry & Glen Campbell recorded an album together...I remember them together on his TV show a lot as well. I guess they were probably more than just musical partners... Anyway, Glen does a very pretty version of...do I have to say it? ;~) >> Another way would be that Bobbie Gentry had a hit with "I'll Never Fall In Love Again," [I have no idea where this is going from here, just bear with me], which was also a big hit here for Deacon Blue, who were named after a song by Steely Dan, and, er, there must be a Dan connection - yes, Michael McDonald! Who sang on early Dan and, of course, Good Friends. Bob's version was a lot easier :-) Azeem in chilly, rainy London - but hey, England have just beaten Argentina, so I ain't complaining! Here we go here we go here we go... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 10:06:38 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IGRlZ3JlZXMgb2Ygc2VwYXJhdGlvbiCgTkpD?= <> But yours was so much more creative, Azeem! Assuming that Bobbie's "I'll Never Fall In Love Again" was the Bacharach/David song, you could also go to Elvis Costello, who worked with Bacharach and who also recorded "Edith & The Kingpin" for the "when the hell is it going to see the light of day, probably never" Joni Tribute CD "A Case of Joni"! Bob NP: Ani, "Angry Anymore", 11/21/99 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 07:07:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: through the wall (njc) Kakki wrote: > < apparently she cannot transcend. Don't mean to psychoanalyze her - > just my 2 cents. >> and in response, Bob M. wrote: > > < probably impossible, to care about an artist's work and not care > about the artist as well, particularly when she has "sondtracked" so > many life experiences for a lot of us. I feel like we all like to > revel in her victories and are sympathetic in her sorrows. And I > think (like Lama so poignantly described) that her relationship with > her daughter and her mother has been such a powerful driver for her > all along, I think a lot of what factors into her bitterness is the > conflicted relationship with Kilauren.>> I am stopped in my emotional tracks each and every time this issue arises on the list. I am motivated to write today because I am particularly drawn to Kakki's descripton of Joni's deep hurt, as well as the "conflicted relationship with Kilauren" part of your post Bob. The experience of losing a child to adoption, and the effects thereof, are life long and deep. Unspeakable. They don't go away, especially when reunion takes place. Reunion does not create that place of instantaneous healing or bonding whatsoever. Imagine what that might feel like, knowing that you are about to meet the baby-now-adult you gave up many years ago, when, at the time, you were told you could get on with your life, that you were doing that "right" thing, that you would indeed "get over it", that you would never see them again. Ever. And here you are climbing those stairs, a cold fear moves through you like a damp fog, rolling and rolling through each and every cell, each and every memory. You know into each and every step you take, you know. You know they are sitting at that table at the restaurant. You know they arrived while you were downstairs to make that one last phonecall to gather up some last minute reassurance because you are so scared you just might explode into a million little pieces...and how do you know they have arrived. You just do. Reunion is like that. Magic. Knowing. In the moments prior to that first meeting, a visit, rather a head on collision with fear, like none Ive ever known, occurs. The fear inside is unbelievable. Unspeakable. Painful. A vortex of 'what ifs' swirl madly inside, all the while you are trying to be present as this calm, cool grown up woman who 'made a mistake', and who really had 'no choice'. All of a sudden you become that young woman, again. And you cannot speak. Frozen in time. Staring, mesmerized by the image of your self in a perfect and beautiful stranger. Haunting moment. To give up an infant and then so many years later, meet that baby turned adult is one of the most powerful, overwhelming, terrifying things I have ever done. There is no way that you can ever be prepared. Ever. You can logic it all out neatly, you can tell yourself, oh yes, I had no choice, what else could I do. Joni didnt even tell her own parents, which was my experience as well. There are so many layers and levels of complicit secrecy and when it all comes out into the open, all hell breaks loose emotionally. And on it goes. It never stops. Reunion has a life of its own. Having been there, I can only begin to imagine what it might have been and continues to be like for Joni, especially because she is so exposed, so much in the limelight, or the floodlights at times. I feel for her and for Kilauren, having to go through this the public microscope. I write from this place of the very personal with the hope that I can bring understanding to Joni's experience. (I am shaking like a leaf as I write, and yes, the tears still fall, twenty seven years later). So you see, I can understand. I get it. Losing a child to adoption affects her. How can it not. She wears it like she wears her skin, it is a part of her very soul. It is imprinted into each and every cell. It has to be. The pain of losing a child to adoption does not go away. Reunion brings joy, absolutely, and it also brings up old pain as well as new and it rolls over and over you, especially at those signifiers of maple trees breaking free each and every spring, or the colour blue. That old pain flies up in your face like it was yesterday. Some of the answers to a thousand questions screamed in silence for years and years appear in fragments. And many do not, because you dare not ask. Knowing is better than not knowing. However, how do you reconcile who this person is to you. You are not their 'mother'..they did not grow up knowing you as that. You remember the baby, and here is this adult 'stranger' who sets off all kinds of biological alarms inside you. And how do you fit into the scheme of things with the person who is their mother. You throw up your hands and wonder, now what. Try to create something new, but what. Thanks for bearing with this. Every so often, I need to break the silence. Jezebel. Life sentence. Mags > ===== You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #244 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?