From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #211 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, May 11 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 211 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in History: May 11 [les@jmdl.com] peace (njc) ["Brenda" ] Re: lucky guess INDEED! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni's sexiest songs ["Victor Johnson" ] San Diego listers? NJC ["kerry" ] Sexy Joni Lyrics ["J.David Sapp" ] Re: Beatles (njc) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Joni's sexiest songs ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Sexy Joni Lyrics ["Mark or Travis" ] poem & slide show njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Beatles, As, (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Y Tu Mama Tambien NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Was: "Joni in Fiction" needs a techie, Now: We have volunteers [Murphycop] Joni's least sexy songs JC [Russell Bowden] Re: Beatles, As, (njc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Y Tu Mama Tambien NJC [Vince Lavieri ] RE: Y Tu Mama Tambien NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Beatles, As, (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: the self (njc) [Murphycopy@aol.com] And another 1000 kisses (NJC) ["John van Tiel" ] sensitivity NJC ["John van Tiel" ] Desafinado or ... (flippant JC) ["John van Tiel" ] Oopsing [was Desafinado or...] NJC [dsk ] Re: Joni's least sexiest songs [dsk ] Re: sensitivity NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Oopsing [was Desafinado or...] NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Clean Air Rally (njc) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: Joni's sexiest songs [Lazyasz@aol.com] Re: Oopsing [was Desafinado or...] NJC ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: sensitivity NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: sensitivity NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: sensitivity NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: sensitivity NJC ["Brenda" ] Re: sensitivity NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Y Tu Mama Tambien NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: sensitivity ["Mike Pritchard" ] Ebert's review NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: sensitivity NJC ["Mike Pritchard" ] Re: sensitivity ["John van Tiel" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 03:01:47 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: May 11 On May 11 in history: 1995: Joni was in Washington, D.C. and did a National Public Radio show where she talked and performed 3 songs; "Sunny Sunday," "Loves Cries" and "The Three Great Stimulants." This show was taped [today] but wasn't broadcast until the 28th. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 01:30:16 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: peace (njc) Peace (Horace Silver) There's a place that I know Where the sycamores grow And daffodils have their fun Where the cares of the day Seem to slowly fade away and the glow of the evening sun Peace When the day is done If I go there real late Let my mind meditate On everything to be done If I search deep inside Let my conscience be my guide Then the answers are sure to come Don't have to worry none When you find peace of mind Leave your worries behind Don't say that it can't be done With a new point of view Life's true meaning comes to you And the freedom you seek is won Peace is for everyone Peace is for everyone Peace is for everyone n.p.: Norah Jones - "Peace" - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 08:50:47 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: lucky guess INDEED! Janine guessed: <> And a Lucky Girl you are, Janine! For you were the closest one to my unsexy choice of "Lakota" from CMIARS! So a copy of "Covers, Volume #29 AND a copy of "For The Roses, Live!" will be winging their way to you for your listening pleasure. Please confirm your address to me when you get a chance. And while I realize this won't be the same thrill as SITTING RIGHT BEHIND JONI at Harbourfront, I hope you do enjoy them. ;~) Thanks to EVERYONE for playing...really had a lot of guesses this time, and I appreciate it. If you didn't win, but want either or both of these discs, lemme know and we'll make it happen. And stay tuned for more chances to WIN WIN WIN!!! :~) Happy weekend, ya knuckleheads...I love ya'! Bob NP: Ian & Sylvia, "The Circle Game" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 9:46:58 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Joni's sexiest songs > Yea there are alot of non-sexy songs on Dog Eat Dog.. probably the > most unsexy is "Ethiopia" > Yes...."Ethiopia" takes the cake! Victor, sad that he can't play "Dog Eat Dog" because his turntable is busted...and thinking of when Homer Simpson is coming down the elevator with his new sexy coworker(can't remember her name) and saying to himself, think unsexy thoughts, think unsexy thoughts and this image pops into his head of Barney dancing in a tutu, but it all is to no avail because he steps out of the elevator where there is no floor and falls the rest of the way. > > > > - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 11:07:38 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: San Diego listers? NJC I'll be in San Diego at the end of the month for an adult literacy conference and wondered if there are any listers in the area. Any recommendations on things I should do or see? You can e-mail me privately. Thanks! Kerry NP - Jonatha Brooke - "Where Were You?" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 11:37:01 -0500 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Sexy Joni Lyrics You go down to the pick up station Craving warmth and beauty You settle for less than fascination A few drinks later you're not so choosy When the closing lights strip off the shadows On this strange new flesh you've found Clutching the night to you like a fig leaf You hurry To the blackness And the blankets To lay down an impression And your loneliness and - Hands alike, magnet and iron, the souls peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 13:11:46 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Beatles (njc) Maureen McGovern, who transposed from disaster pop star to one of America's premier songstress does a gorgeous version of I Will on Baby I'm Yours. One of my favorite Beatles song. Jerry np: Babs - I Don't Know Where I Stand ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 10:14:14 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni's sexiest songs .. and then there are tons of one liners or > melodies that can lure me into daydreaming.. > > There's a one liner in 'Electricity' that isn't overtly sexual but really gets to me: While the song that he sang her to soothe her to sleep Runs all through her circuits like a heartbeat I wonder if James inspired that one. His voice would do that to me if he was singing to me....in bed.... Sigh... Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 10:18:29 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Sexy Joni Lyrics > I'd have to say the all around sexiest scenario for me would be the Lesson In > Survival images, which set my mind to imagining the kind of romantic > relationship I'd want-- > "You and me, deep kisses and the sun going down." > "I'm gonna get a boat and we can row it if you ever get the notion to be > needed by me, fresh salmon frying and the tide rolling in." > "Hands alike, magnet and iron, the souls..." > Ken in SF I've always thought that sounded like an ideal romantic setting as well, Ken. I'm sure the infamous photo on the inside of the FTR album was inspired by 'I'm looking way out at the ocean/love to see that green water in motion' from 'Lesson in Survival'. Mark E in Seattle PS: Glad you made it back home again. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 10:30:09 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: poem & slide show njc passing on something that was sent to me...a poem & slide show: http://168.143.173.209/IWGnet.swf ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 10:50:30 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Beatles, As, (njc) ditto on the lyrics to I Will, Kakki! loved your mention of As which I love love love & recently sent the lyrics to a friend so here they are too: As by Stevie Wonder As around the sun the earth knows she's revolving And the rosebuds know to bloom in early May Just as hate knows love's the cure You can rest your mind assure That I'll be loving you always As now can't reveal the mistery of tomorrow But in passing will grow older every day Just as all is born is new Do you know what I say is true That I'll be loving you always Until the rainbow burns the stars out in the sky ALWAYS Until the ocean covers every mountain high ALWAYS Until the dolphin flies and parrots live at sea ALWAYS Until we dream of life and life becomes a dream Did you know that true love asks for nothing Her acceptance is the way we pay Did you know that life has given love a guarantee To last through forever and another day Just as time knew to move on since the beginning And the seasons know exactly when to change Just as kindness knows no shame Know through all your joy and pain That I'll be loving you always As today I know I'm living but tomorrow Could make me the past but that I mustn't fear For I'll know deep in my mind The love of me I've left behind Cause I'll be loving you always Until the day is night and night becomes the day ALWAYS Until the trees and sea just up and fly away ALWAYS Until the day that 8x8x8 is 4 ALWAYS Until the day that is the day that are no more Did you know you're loved by somebody? Until the day the earth starts turning right to left ALWAYS Until the earth just for the sun denies itself I'll loving you forever Until dear Mother Nature says her work is through ALWAYS Until the day that you are me and I am you AL~~~~~WA~~~~~~~~~AA~~~~~~~~~AA~~~ Until the rainbow burns the stars out in the sky ~~~~~~~~~~AA~~~~~~~~~AA~~~~~~~~~AA~~~ Until the ocean covers every mountain high ~~~AA~~~~~~~~~AA~~~~~~~~~YS We all know sometimes life's hates and troubles Can make you wish you were born in another time and space But you can bet your life times that and twice its double That God knew exactly where he wanted you to be placed So make sure when you say you're in it but not of it You're not helping to make this earth a place sometimes called Hell Change your words into truths and then change that truth into love And maybe our children's grandchildren And their great-great grandchildren will tell I'll be loving you Until the rainbow burns the stars out in the sky Loving you Until the ocean covers every mountain high Loving you Until the dolphin flies and parrots live at sea Loving you Until we dream of life and life becomes a dream Be loving you Until the day is night and night becomes the day Loving you Until the trees and seas up, up and fly away Loving you Until the day that 8x8x8x8 is 4 Loving you Until the day that is the day that are no more Loving you Until the day the earth starts turning right to left Be loving you Until the earth just for the sun denies itself Loving you Until dear Mother Nature says her work is through Loving you Until the day that you are me and I am you Now ain't that loving you Until the rainbow burns the stars out in the sky Ain't that loving you Until the ocean covers every mountain high And I've got to say always Until the dolphin flies and parrots live at sea AL~~~~~~~~~WA~~~~~~~~~~~~AYS Until we dream of life and life becomes a dream Um AL~~~~~~~~~WA~~~~~~~~~~~~AYS Until the day is night and night becomes the day AL~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~WA~~~~~~~~~AYS Until the trees and sea just up and fly away AL~~~~~WA~~~~~~~~~~AA~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Until the day that 8x8x8 is 4 ~~~~~~~~AA~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~AA~~~~~~~~~~~~AA Until the day that is the day that are no more AA~~~~~~~~~~~~AA~~~~AA~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~AYS Until the day the earth starts turning right to left AL~~~~~~~~WA~~~~~~A~~~~~~~~~~~~AA Until the earth just for the sun denies itself ~~~~~~AA~~~~~~~~AA~~~~~~AA~~~~~~AYS Until dear Mother Nature says her work is through AL~~~~WAYS Until the day that you are me and I am you Until the rainbow burns the stars out in the sky Until the ocean covers every mountain high Until the dolphin flies and parrots live at sea Until we dream of life and life becomes a dream Until the day is night and night becomes the day Until the trees and sea just up and fly away Until the day that 8x8x8 is 4 Until the day that is the day that are no more Until the day the earth starts turning right to left Until the earth just for the sun denies itself Until dear Mother Nature says her work is through Until the day that you are me and I am you ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 10:50:53 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Y Tu Mama Tambien NJC Went to see the movie last night, thanks to Vince (who wrote I sure wish a lot of folks would go see it this weekend so we could get a thread going) & Les who recommended it... Interesting movie...so, what do you want to tawk about? ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 13:43:09 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Was: "Joni in Fiction" needs a techie, Now: We have volunteers We have a volunteer (Lori) and a backup (Hell) for the technical work that needs to be done on the new "Joni in Fiction" section of the JMDL. I appreciate that they are taking time out from other JMDL projects they are working on to help out. Thanks! If anyone has e-mailed me off-list about this project and has not heard back it's because I am not getting all my e-mail, thanks to AOL. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 10:59:27 -0700 From: Russell Bowden Subject: Joni's least sexy songs JC Gang, Long time, no post. My selections would be: Lead Balloon (ouch!) Ethiopia BTW, on the homepage for the Castro movie theater in San Francisco, there is a picture of Joni and Neil in the top left corner..... The restored "Last Waltz" just played there for a week or so. I think it's Castrotheater.com or search for castro movie theater San Francisco. Love, Russ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 14:12:11 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Beatles, As, (njc) <> Here's one of those awkward lines that Stevie is a master of...like you have to reassemble it verbally to figure out what he's saying. But no matter. SITKOL is a true masterwork, and this song is a gem. He gets me in the first few bars with his doot-doot-doots... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 14:30:43 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Y Tu Mama Tambien NJC Kate Bennett wrote: > Went to see the movie last night, thanks to Vince (who wrote I sure wish a > lot of folks would go see it this weekend so we could get a thread going) & > Les who recommended it... > > Interesting movie...so, what do you want to tawk about? So now there are 3 of us - Kate, is your comment that it was "interesting" kind of a damning with faint praise? How did you like it? Ok, so what was the movie about? There have to be a bunch of levels of meaning, and I wonder if you agree or disagree with that -- I would identify the levels as:, 1. people searching for what they really want and when they find it, they can't deal with it, they run away from it, and their lives are harmed thereby - - last scene with Julio and Tenoch, neither looks very happy, the only happy one was Daniel who had a boyfriend. When they discovered what they really wnated, what gave them joy, they both fled and the last time we see them, the joy that we saw for so long in the movie is all gone. The only other possibly happy one was Luisa who got to live her days in a place of her choosing, where she seemed blissful. 2. the political corruption of the Mexican government (which was then the PRI), all those scene of casual police repression in the background, Tenoch's father going to Vancouver for 8 months, even Tenoch's name being for political reaaons. And there is something in Tenoch and Julio not being able to keep to the manifesto of the Charolastas (whch Luisa said they should give to the government) 3. the economic displacement of the poor, from the near the opening with the dead worker to the end with the fisherman never gets to fish again. Even Julio and Tenoch, when they fought over Luisa, resorted to class fighting and insults (preppie, peasant). 4. A 4th level - that is one of the best coming of age movies ever, and certainly more real than anything we have ever seen out of Hollywood., or any Emerican film for that matter. I thought the portrayal of the boys, of their friends, their parties, the way they treated each other, was very realistic. (That is the way boys are...) 5. I keep thinking of new things - one of the best road pictures ever; the raad almost was a character in the film itself. 6. And wasn't it well acted - and the second time around, as Ebert said in his review you have it see it twice so that you watch it knowing the story - I found the script very profound. The lines about personal mythologies which we create to bind outselves to others, or that truth is nevr whole and always lacking something, or that we create new truths (Julio's confession to Tenoch, and how Tenoch went after every detail) or variatiuons thereof to satisfy others - it had some deed insights into it. The script was rooted in life experience - one does know, as Luisa knew, when one's partner is cheatring on you when they try new things that they learned from others. Or the little things that we don't know about each other (Tenoch using his foot to lift the toliet seat at Julio's house) that we are just as well off not knowing - that Tenoch yells mamacita or Julio crosses his eyes, there is a level of knowledge of others that makes us too uncomfortable no matter how close two people are. Now that is all my opinion. I maybe be totally wrong on what the movie was about - and I am really wanting to know what others thought the movie was about, because I saw it through the prism of my own life and my own experience, and my first level of meaning could be way off to someone else and I really desire other opinions, other people's insights. Also, the 2nd time I saw it, some woman was all disgusted, calling it a porn film, and I thought it was so far from porn as could be - but it was, shall we say, very visual. But that was essential to the reality the movie was after. Just my thoughts. Anxiously awaiting others. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 12:18:42 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Y Tu Mama Tambien NJC >>So now there are 3 of us - Kate, is your comment that it was "interesting" kind of a damning with faint praise? How did you like it?<< I did like it. LOL, not damning praise at all...just still thinking about it I guess >>Ok, so what was the movie about? There have to be a bunch of levels of meaning, and I wonder if you agree or disagree with that<< Yes, the way I saw it is 1) it was a coming of age movie 2) at the same time it was about Luisa's choice & you know something more is going on with her than just her marriage problems 3) the contrast between the poverty & political vs the beauty of the beach & lifestyle of the fisherman & family >>1. people searching for what they really want and when they find it, they can't deal with it, they run away from it, and their lives are harmed thereby - - last scene with Julio and Tenoch, neither looks very happy, the only happy one was Daniel who had a boyfriend. When they discovered what they really wnated, what gave them joy, they both fled and the last time we see them, the joy that we saw for so long in the movie is all gone. The only other possibly happy one was Luisa who got to live her days in a place of her choosing, where she seemed blissful.<< I'm not sure if the boys ever discovered what they really wanted...it wasn't clear to me (but I don't want to give the plot away here)...if I am understanding what you mean... >>4. A 4th level - that is one of the best coming of age movies ever, and certainly more real than anything we have ever seen out of Hollywood., or any Emerican film for that matter. I thought the portrayal of the boys, of their friends, their parties, the way they treated each other, was very realistic. (That is the way boys are...)<< Absolutely, & perhaps this is why it was so appealing, especially to men, because it was so realistic about the way boys are >>6. And wasn't it well acted - and the second time around, as Ebert said in his review you have it see it twice so that you watch it knowing the story - I found the script very profound.<< I only saw it once so I imagine you'd be able to get more of the script the 2nd time...its always a challenge with subtitles to absorb everything all at once in the movie...at least to me >>I saw it through the prism of my own life and my own experience, and my first level of meaning could be way off to someone else and I really desire other opinions, other people's insights.<< Again, why I think this movie is especially appealling to men. >>Also, the 2nd time I saw it, some woman was all disgusted, calling it a porn film, and I thought it was so far from porn as could be - but it was, shall we say, very visual. But that was essential to the reality the movie was after.<< She missed the whole point, too bad... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 12:18:51 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Beatles, As, (njc) yes, stevie is always better listened too than read! > Here's one of those awkward lines that Stevie is a master of...like you have to reassemble it verbally to figure out what he's saying. But no matter. SITKOL is a true masterwork, and this song is a gem. He gets me in the first few bars with his doot-doot-doots... Bob < ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 15:06:45 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: the self (njc) Hmm . . . I wonder if less art would be created without ego. I am sure that fewer maids would be kicked; but I bet there would also be fewer songs written and paintings painted (and posts posted!) --Bob, contemplating his linty inny navel The JMDL's talented Victor quoted: << From "The Indestructible Truth: The Living Spirituality of Tibetan Buddhism" by Reginald A. Ray (c) 2000 Shambala Publications, Inc. "Through the methods of Tantric meditation, one's usual, habitual, ego-centered patterns of body, speech, and mind are temporarily replaced by patterns of non-ego or enlightened body, speech, and mind of a Buddha. This destabilizes our ego's mechanisms. The ego's usual "total lock" on experience is disrupted. One begins to become more and more uncertain about who one is or what one is doing. This provides gaps in the ego's shell, and the Buddha-nature can begin to shine through. The more it shines through, the more shaky and impotent the ego becomes. The more ego-centered conciousness begins to dissolve, the stronger the light of the Buddha-nature becomes. It is a process that accelerates the further it goes along." >> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:12:07 +0200 From: "John van Tiel" Subject: And another 1000 kisses (NJC) A big "me too" for this unbelievably beautiful Patty Griffin album. All you Joni lovers ... (drum roll, Dutch Uncle face) go and listen to it !! John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:13:24 +0200 From: "John van Tiel" Subject: sensitivity NJC Mike wrote: >> It is said that Elvis Costello once said (or is alleged to have said) that Ray Charles was 'a blind ignorant nigger'. This is not the Costello I love and I'm sure it's not what he believes, and maybe it's not even true that he said it. Whatever: if he said it, it was clearly a racist remark but I don't think Costello is a racist on the strength of one remark'. There are remarks and there are remarks, but one slip (for whatever reason) should not normally condemn anyone permanently as an idiot, or racist, sexist or whatever. << So true. There is also the element: listening to/reading what is said/written or listening to /reading what you WANT to hear/read. It's so easy to single elements out. I once interviewed one of the captains of industry in this country for a long in-depth (inter)view on the moral side of business. The conversation came to "intelligence". He mentioned that he liked doing IQ tests and then he literally said: "I have an IQ of 164." It was one sentence in an interview that lasted 4 hours over a period of 2 days and it was not at all out of context. It would have made a perfect headline. a) he said it; and b) it would draw the readers to read the article. But it would have made him a laughing stock. It would have branded him as a pompous asshole, which he was by no means. I decided to omit the entire passage. Later, I thought about why I omitted it. The only reason I could come up with was - I liked the man. Would I do the same with someone like George Double You? Fat chance. But then again, what would his score be? Would you have defended the remark when it hadn't been made by the impressively talented and probably sensitive Elvis Costello (talking about 'blind' -- he must have lost his glasses at the time of the remark) but by someone like Jim Carey, Ralph Nader, or Andre Agassi? Even in irony? Just wondering in general ... Also: Being called something ... does that mean that you ARE ? An afterthought I think it was Thomas Mann who once said (I quote from memory): "If you get two hours of compliments, you think about them for 2 minutes. If you get 2 minutes of criticism, you will think about it for two hours. Why?" John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:18:47 +0200 From: "John van Tiel" Subject: Desafinado or ... (flippant JC) How insentive (just saw Pat Metheny in Amsterdam doing a brilliant version of this Joao Gilberto classic): Lieve wrote: >> one thing I would never want to do is generalise, even as a child I refused to join in the telling of jokes about the "Hollanders" (hi John, surely feminists can be sweethearts?!) Yes? Name five, then. :-) *** Bob wrote: >>When I told my sister that I was on a JM discussion list, her immediate response was "Oh my, I would imagine that Joni fans are people who feel things very deeply!"...and I think that was a right-on statement. I think we're much more sensitive than the world at large. Jerry's retort: >>And much better looking! Eh? Where have YOU been for the past 5 years??? In this group, I go for the character, deep thinking and the intelligence. Now, in the Michelle Pfeiffer Discussion List, we go for character, wit, intelligence, feminism AND looks. Never for deep thinking. *** Joni's sexiest song: Je t'aime (moi non plus) - although her voice is already a bit hampered by the early signs of smoke damage on the vocal chords. *** Mike wrote: >>To say that Britney Spears is a greater songwriter and singer than Joni Mitchell is an idiotic remark. ??? By which standards??? Anyone who manages to get the entire world to sing "Oops ... " must be a fabulous songwriter by my standards. Oops John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 15:47:31 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Oopsing [was Desafinado or...] NJC John van Tiel wrote: > > Anyone who manages to get the entire world to sing "Oops ... " must be a > fabulous songwriter by my standards. :-) Yeah. My man Richard Thompson has even included it in his recent concerts, starting as a joke but then he gets into it. People who've heard him do it say it's a surprisingly decent song, once they get over their initial shock, stop laughing and then can actually listen. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 15:58:56 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Joni's least sexiest songs Victor Johnson wrote: > > So...what's the least sexiest song that Joni has??? Sex Kills, especially because whenever I hear it or even think of it I also picture her stern face when she performed it on some late-night talk show. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 16:13:29 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: sensitivity NJC << Mike wrote: >> It is said that Elvis Costello once said (or is alleged to have said) that Ray Charles was 'a blind ignorant nigger'. >> Wasn't Elvis drunk or on drugs when he said that? I think he was, and that he was so disgusted with his own behavior, he sought treatment shortly after this incident and has been alcohol/drug free ever since. If I am wrong, I am sure someone else has the facts. Also, I am pretty sure he said "jive-ass," not "blind ignorant." Or maybe he said both. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 16:21:40 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Oopsing [was Desafinado or...] NJC <> Same thing with Ryan Adams doing the Backstreet Boys song "I Want It That Way", which it seems he sincerely likes, and which of course sounds superb with his singing and acoustic playing. Bob NP: Talking Heads, "Life During Wartime" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 16:28:22 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Clean Air Rally (njc) I went downtown today just to see what was going on and ended up playing for a clean air rally that was going for 28 hours straight. I must have played for about an hour. Met a bass player there and a studio owner so it was definately an afternoon well spent. Also, the whole thing was digitally videotaped and they're going to send me a free copy. Downtown Asheville is one of the coolest places I've ever been. Everywhere you go you run into someone you know. Its almost like living on a college campus again. Victor Setlist:After the Gold Rush (N.Young)Landing on AirRosesHeavenly Eyes...right into......Eyes of the World (Grateful Dead)Who Walks Among the TreesRedemption Songs (B.Marley)Into the Mystic (V.Morrison)Rubber Duckie Song (?)Box of Rain (Grateful Dead)Amelia (J. Mitchell)Aiko Aiko/Women Are Smarter (Grateful Dead)Carolina --- Victor Johnson--- waytoblu@mindspring.com"Roses wait for the springtime,They sleep beneath the ground.They hear March winds a callin'For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 16:27:29 EDT From: Lazyasz@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's sexiest songs I think Lucky Girl on DED is one of her sexiest songs. It almost sounds like the postmodern offspring of a song like Help Me or any other like Court and Spark. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 16:30:6 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Oopsing [was Desafinado or...] NJC > Same thing with Ryan Adams doing the Backstreet Boys song "I Want It That > Way", which it seems he sincerely likes, and which of course sounds superb > with his singing and acoustic playing. I saw Michael Hedges once in Atlanta and he did Madonna "Lucky Star". I think he always made a point of picking unusual covers to do. Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 13:34:56 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Oopsing [was Desafinado or...] NJC On 11 May 2002 at 16:21, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > < heard him do it say it's a surprisingly decent song, once they get > over their initial shock, stop laughing and then can actually listen. > >> > > > Same thing with Ryan Adams doing the Backstreet Boys song "I Want It > That Way", which it seems he sincerely likes, and which of course > sounds superb with his singing and acoustic playing. > And in both cases, credit Max Martin since he wrote and produced both songs. B n.p.: Kings v. Mavs - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 14:13:42 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: sensitivity NJC > Wasn't Elvis drunk or on drugs when he said that? And didn't Bonnie Bramlett smack him a good one when he said it? Or am I thinking of another story? Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:39:47 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: sensitivity NJC Bob the Smujrf asked: > > Wasn't Elvis drunk or on drugs when he said that? and Mark or Travis wondered:: > > > And didn't Bonnie Bramlett smack him a good one when he said it? Or am I > thinking of another story? I saw Bonnie (with Delaney) in concert, back on the one and only Blind Faith tour, in 1969, and it is good to hang with people who know who she is, and know her better than me, as so many people here do in so many areas. Life is for learning, as some wise person once wrote, I'd like to hear some Bonnie Bramlett stories! (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:49:14 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: sensitivity NJC The lovely Vince writes: << I'd like to hear some Bonnie Bramlett stories! >> To which I say: I just came across the following while searching for the infamous Costello/Charles story: http://www.bonniebramlett.com/home.html I haven't found much on the incident, but I did find this rather skimpy entry from the Costello site, which brings Stephen Stills into the story: "My Aim Is True, was recorded during a series of "sick" days from work. Little short of breathtaking, it hit the charts becoming the biggest U.S. import album of the decade when it crossed the Atlantic on the CBS/Columbia label. On his first U.S. tour, when a clash with Stephen Stills and Bonnie Bramlet turned ugly, Costello flew back home with death threats ringing in his ears." --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 14:52:56 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: sensitivity NJC On 11 May 2002 at 17:49, Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > I haven't found much on the incident, but I did find this rather > skimpy entry from the Costello site, which brings Stephen Stills into > the story: > > "My Aim Is True, was recorded during a series of "sick" days from > work. Little short of breathtaking, it hit the charts becoming the > biggest U.S. import album of the decade when it crossed the Atlantic > on the CBS/Columbia label. On his first U.S. tour, when a clash with > Stephen Stills and Bonnie Bramlet turned ugly, Costello flew back home > with death threats ringing in his ears." > According to this story, Elvis was getting drunk with Stephen; Bonnie socked him: http://www.eonline.com/Features/Topten/Meltdowns/8.html B - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:59:58 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: sensitivity NJC In a message dated 5/11/02 4:54:40 PM, music@codetalk.net writes: << Elvis was getting drunk with Stephen; Bonnie socked him >> As Homer Simson says, "Alcohol . . . the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems." --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 18:17:12 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Y Tu Mama Tambien NJC Kate Bennett wrote: > Yes, the way I saw it is 1) it was a coming of age movie 2) at the same time > it was about Luisa's choice & you know something more is going on with her > than just her marriage problems 3) the contrast between the poverty & > political vs the beauty of the beach & lifestyle of the fisherman & family I totally did not pick up on something more with Luisa the first time around, other than her getting that test score on not being "a fully realized woman" in the magazine at the doctor's office. I thought she was just rejecting the bourgeouis life style. I didn't catch on there might be more with her until the scene at the jukebox when she danced back to the boys. The second time seeing the movie, I saw a whole lot more, including that she what I have been terming "what Tenoch and Julio ultimately wanted" a while before she did something about it. There were a number of references to that which I didn't catch the first time, especially in the scene of Luisa's manifesto. And the character of Luisa had, for me, a lot more depth when I saw it the second time, if only because knowing "the story" I could concentrate on what was happening on screen. The actress who played Luisa was magnificant. > I'm not sure if the boys ever discovered what they really wanted...it wasn't > clear to me (but I don't want to give the plot away here)...if I am > understanding what you mean... An see, this is one reason i am so keen on other people's opinions, because this is so questionable - again,. am I seeing that because of the prism of my life or not? When they wake up in the fishing village, it was clear to me that the night before was about much more than what we saw in the movie, and after that all joy, and the exuberence that drove the movie,was gone. That may (and this is a big "may") have something to do with the political level of the movie - when Mexico finally woke up and realized that they tossed the PRI out of power, which they did in the election that was mentioned in the closing scene, they woke up to the rightest Vincente Fox rather than the leftist government that they thought they would have. And as Fox is more on the side of the corporations which turned the nature preserve into a resort for the rich than the PRI was, there has to be a connection between Tenoch's and Julio's loss of joy and the political situation - I think. I am still working this out in my head, > Absolutely, & perhaps this is why it was so appealing, especially to men, > because it was so realistic about the way boys are > Again, why I think this movie is especially appealling to men. You think so? I think that the very accurate portrayal of young adult men would make a lot of men anxious since men generally don't handle scenes like the diving boards or the night in the fishing village all that well. > I said: > >>Also, the 2nd time I saw it, some woman was all disgusted, calling it a > porn > film, and I thought it was so far from porn as could be - but it was, shall > we > say, very visual. But that was essential to the reality the movie was > after.<< > Kate replied: > > She missed the whole point, too bad... exactly! I noticed in the paper today that the movie thatre is carrying it over for at least a 3rd week, which is almost (or totally) unprecedented for a so-called art film or foreign film to play out here for this long. The crowds were bigger the second time around that I saw it. I will probably see it a third time at the theatre, just to give a little box office support to them for carrying it over again. And I am wondering if this film has legs - is it getting great word of mouth from others besides me? Are the audiences growing? Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 22:23:10 +0000 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: Re: sensitivity Referring to mike's alleged reference to the alleged "Blind ignorant nigger" remark allegedly made by Elvis Costello, whose real name is allegedly Declan Patrick Aloysius MacManus, (Dutch) John asked: >>Would you (mike) have defended the remark when it hadn't been made by the impressively talented and probably sensitive Elvis Costello (talking about 'blind' -- he must have lost his glasses at the time of the remark) but by someone like Jim Carey, Ralph Nader, or Andre Agassi?<< Hi John; my straight answer is that I didn't defend the remark at all, ever. What I DID do was to suggest that Elvis' (alleged) remark should not condemn him as a racist on the basis of 3 seconds of racist bile. The remark is unquestionably offensive and racist and I wouldn't defend this remark ever, whoever said it. What I did say and will say again here is that one racist outburst does not mean the speaker is racist. If someone had a history of using such language, or xenophobic behaviour, or whatever, then this would lead me and others to form an opinion that that person is racist. But, I stress, it would only be my opinion. I do not have any information about Costello (or Mack) that would lead me to conclude that they are racist. I believe them not to be but anyone is capable of letting a few nasty words slip out in moments of, shall we say, insensitivity. Bob chips in with a comment which shows (me) that Costello's remarks were out of character: >>Wasn't Elvis drunk or on drugs when he said that? I think he was, and that he was so disgusted with his own behavior, he sought treatment shortly after this incident and has been alcohol/drug free ever since.<< John also asked: >>Also: Being called something ... does that mean that you ARE ? << That's perhaps the other side of the coin. I would say not, but we have to think why somebody would say such a thing. If A calls B a racist, that does not mean B is racist per se, but it may be very convenient for A if B is known as a racist based on A's accusation, which could be instrumental here. A could be right of course and her/his accusation/opinion could reflect an objective reality. Or not. Nevertheless, people frequently base their actions on what they perceive to be true (or what they have convinced themselves is true) or what they find convenient to believe is true although they know it is not true. John then also namedropped: >>How insensitive (just saw Pat Metheny in Amsterdam doing a brilliant version of this Joao Gilberto classic):<< Written by Tom Jobim, Shirley ? ;-) mike in bcn, still listening to arthurly 'forever changes' - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 18:24:22 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Ebert's review NJC http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert1/wkp-news-mama05f.html Y TU MAMA TAMBIEN / **** (Not Rated) April 5, 2002 Luisa: Maribel Verdu Julio: Gael Garcia Bernal Tenoch: Diego Luna IFC Films presents a film directed by Alfonso Cuaron. Written by Alfonso Cuaron and Carlos Cuaron. In Spanish with English subtitles. Running time: 105 minutes. No MPAA rating. BY ROGER EBERT "Y Tu Mama Tambien" is described on its Web site as a "teen drama," which is like describing "Moulin Rouge" as a musical. The description is technically true but sidesteps all of the reasons to see the movie. Yes, it's about two teenage boys and an impulsive journey with an older woman that involves sexual discoveries. But it is also about the two Mexicos. And it is about the fragility of life and the finality of death. Beneath the carefree road movie that the movie is happy to advertise is a more serious level--and below that, a dead serious level. The movie, whose title translates as "And Your Mama, Too," is another trumpet blast that there may be a New Mexican Cinema a-bornin'. Like "Amores Perros," which also stars Gael Garcia Bernal, it is an exuberant exercise in interlocking stories. But these interlock not in space and time, but in what is revealed, what is concealed, and in the parallel world of poverty through which the rich characters move. The surface is described in a flash: Two Mexican teenagers named Tenoch and Julio, one from a rich family, one middle class, are free for the summer when their girlfriends go to Europe. At a wedding they meet Luisa, 10 years older, the wife of a distant cousin; she's sexy and playful. They suggest a weekend trip to the legendary beach named Heaven's Mouth. When her husband cheats on her, she unexpectedly agrees, and they set out together on a lark. This level could have been conventional but is anything but, as directed by Alfonso Cuaron, who co-wrote the screenplay with his brother Carlos. Luisa kids them about their sex lives in a lighthearted but tenacious way, until they have few secrets left, and at the same time she teases them with erotic possibilities. The movie is realistic about sex, which is to say, franker and healthier than the smutty evasions forced on American movies by the R rating. We feel a shock of recognition: This is what real people do and how they do it, sexually, and the MPAA has perverted a generation of American movies into puerile masturbatory snickering. Whether Luisa will have sex with one or both of her new friends is not for me to reveal. More to the point is what she wants to teach them, which is that men and women learn to share sex as a treasure they must carry together without something spilling--that women are not prizes, conquests or targets, but the other half of a precarious unity. This is news to the boys, who are obsessed with orgasms (needless to say, their own). The progress of that story provides the surface arc of the movie. Next to it, in a kind of parallel world, is the Mexico they are driving through. They pass police checkpoints, see drug busts and traffic accidents, drive past shanty towns, and are stopped at a roadblock of flowers by villagers demanding a donation for their queen--a girl in bridal white, representing the Virgin. "You have a beautiful queen," Luisa tells them. Yes, but the roadblock is genteel extortion. The queen has a sizable court that quietly hints a donation is in order. At times during this journey the soundtrack goes silent and we hear a narrator who comments from outside the action, pointing out the village where Tenoch's nanny was born and left at 13 to seek work. Or a stretch of road where, two years earlier, there was a deadly accident. The narration and the roadside images are a reminder that in Mexico and many other countries a prosperous economy has left an uneducated and penniless peasantry behind. They arrive at the beach. They are greeted by a fisherman and his family, who have lived here for four generations, sell them fried fish, rent them a place to stay. This is an unspoiled paradise. (The narrator informs us the beach will be purchased for a tourist hotel, and the fisherman will abandon his way of life, go to the city in search of a job and finally come back here to work as a janitor.) Here the sexual intrigues which have been developing all along will find their conclusion. Beneath these two levels (the coming-of-age journey, the two Mexicos) is hidden a third. I will say nothing about it, except to observe there are only two shots in the entire movie that reflect the inner reality of one of the characters. At the end, finally knowing everything, you think back through the film--or, as I was able to do, see it again. Alfonso Cuaron is Mexican but his second and third features were big-budget American films. I thought "Great Expectations" (1998), with Ethan Hawke, Gwyneth Paltrow and Anne Bancroft, brought a freshness and visual excitement to the updated story. I liked "A Little Princess" (1995) even more. It is clear Cuaron is a gifted director, and here he does his best work to date. Why did he return to Mexico to make it? Because he has something to say about Mexico, obviously, and also because Jack Valenti and the MPAA have made it impossible for a movie like this to be produced in America. It is a perfect illustration of the need for a workable adult rating: too mature, thoughtful and frank for the R, but not in any sense pornographic. Why do serious film people not rise up in rage and tear down the rating system that infantilizes their work? The key performance is by Maribel Verdu as Luisa. She is the engine that drives every scene she's in, as she teases, quizzes, analyzes and lectures the boys, as if impatient with the task of turning them into beings fit to associate with an adult woman. In a sense she fills the standard role of the sexy older woman, so familiar from countless Hollywood comedies, but her character is so much more than that--wiser, sexier, more complex, happier, sadder. It is true, as some critics have observed, that "Y Tu Mama" is one of those movies where "after that summer, nothing would ever be the same again." Yes, but it redefines "nothing." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 22:24:20 +0000 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: Re: sensitivity NJC Sorry, forgot to tag NJC to my reply to John. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 01:15:32 +0200 From: "John van Tiel" Subject: Re: sensitivity Mike from Barcelona, I stand corrected in more ways than one: "Hi John; my straight answer is that I didn't defend the remark at all, ever. " a) I realize that. I just phrased my question clumsily. I should have said something like: "What if the remark had been made by someone who is generally less known for 'usually being a thinker who was probably rambling for three seconds' (or being just ironic, for the effect). Would we, or rather I, be willing to give them as much 'benefit of the doubt', as I (like Mike) do in the case of Elvis Costello? BTW, Mike, I completely agree with what you say and I got that from the first reading already. What I wrote was just loud thinking - not in disagreement, but rather an elaboration. John then also namedropped: >>How insensitive (just saw Pat Metheny in Amsterdam doing a brilliant version of this Joao Gilberto classic):<< Written by Tom Jobim, Shirley ? ;-) b) Yes, it was Jobim. It's just that I played the Joao Gilberto version so often, so I have subconsiously come to associate the song with him. c) How did you know that my cross-dressing name is Shirley? d) Namedropping???? Moi??? Just spoke to Pat and he told me that he is perfectly fine with me dropping his name. Actually, he said that I could drop it wherever I wanted, me being Dutch and all ... [PS It WAS a great concert, last night in Amsterdam]. In all friendship. John ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #211 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?