From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #204 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, May 8 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 204 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: NJC Stones in small venues ["Brenda" ] RE: Joni's sexiest song ["Brenda" ] Re: Profiling.....moi?, NJC ["Laurent Olszer" ] NJC CD Prices [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Bonnie Raitt's band et all [NJC] [Richard Goldman ] RE: this list, the world and EVERYTHING (NJC) [ReckersL@ebrd.com] Re: NJC Celine Dion Sanders [jan gyn ] NJC Brenda Russel ["James Phillips" ] Re: this list, the world and EVERYTHING (NJC) ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: NJC Celine Dion ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: this list, the world and EVERYTHING (NJC) [colin Subject: Re: NJC Stones in small venues On 8 May 2002 at 4:32, FredNow@aol.com wrote: > Vince Lavieri writes: > > >Julius, I look at your list and I see all these outdoor venues, and > >that is great! (Wonlt choke on the smoke...) But then I see that > >9-16 date at the Aragon Ballroom in Chicago - anybody out there, does > >that place hold 2,000 people? Or less? > > > Maybe less. I'd really like to hear the Stones in a small room like > that. I haven't been to the Aragon for about 32 years, last time was > Jefferson Airplane headlining and Blue Cheer opening. No seats, all > open space. Lots of black light, incense, pot, acid. The Stones have done at least one small venue gig with every tour since the '80's, however, they usually aren't announced. Funny that they announced them this year. B n.p.: Si Se - "Burbuja" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 09:36:31 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: RE: Joni's sexiest song On 8 May 2002 at 10:04, Donna J. Binkley wrote: > Mia i agree with you on that one too. I had forgotten how much i > loved DJRD. > For me, her sexieste song is definitely "Jericho." B n.p.: Si Se - "Aire" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 18:49:29 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Re: Profiling.....moi?, NJC > Laurent Olszer wrote: > > > .Now VINCE, first you post severe attacks on Sharon with an analogy to > > Eichmann. > Vince replied: > That is bullshit. Total, absolute bullshit. Show me where I ever said the > word or name "Eichmann." > > I did say that the 1982 massacres were not, I repeat, I said they were *not* > genocide, not Shoah. Show me where I said anything about Eichmann ever, let > alone in comparison with Sharon. Come on, show me. > In your april 16 post (JMDL #162), which I posted back on may 3rd with my reply, you said: "Asking the Palestinians to trust Sharon is somewhat akin to 1940s European Jews being asked to trust, say, Heydrich or Eichmann." > > Then you post ... that you FORGIVE me for attacking you > > I never said that either. > On May 4th (your Middle East 2.0 post) you said: "I confess I made a mistake in my original post.........(about being Netanyahu, not Sharon).....I apologize for that....." "I think you used my post as a way to state your positions and your feelings, which is OK. Netanyahu's speech set me off. My post set you off. Such is the language of human dialogue" ......."everything that I believe and teach and preach arises out of Shoah" "My friend, ........were (I) a Jew in Israel now, I cannot say exactly what I would feel......" "But you are where you are at and I am where I am at, and Laurent, in all of this, I cry. For you and I are on both sides of the equation in common humanity." Vince, you're absolutely right, you never said you forgave me. Please do forgive me for construing your post as such. I'm too used to my Christian friends talking about forgiveness that I completely mistook the jist of your post. > > I cannot spend days dissecting every word you write. > > Too busy making up your own words that attribute to me,, I am sure... > > > Not to mention the simplistic lies > > that is your department: see above, and below > Please don't say I'm taking the words out of context. Again, I'm looking at the jist, otherwise this forum will become more of a pissing and dissecting contest. > > for which you still > > stand and which depict Israel as having no moral fiber. > > And I never said that either. Not at all. > Indeed you didn't use those exact words. I guess when you said in the same post on April 16th that "Palestinians are so crushed by oppression that they engage in suicide bombings"....., or that "Barak offered Arafat a deal.........that was not a viable homeland" and of course that Israelis have elected a "war criminal" as pm, who is on the same level as "Heydrich or Eichmann", you surely don't mean it. Please forgive me for not construing the above as praise of the Israeli character. > > As long as you sign "the Rev" then I feel that you have a duty to watch your > > words which I don't have. > > double standards? You're the Christian pastor, not me. > > I am going to quote Anne: "Whenever I see a post by Laurent regarding politics, > I just hit delete. I think that pretty well sums up what I need to say." > > My reply to Anne is that I wish that I were that smart. And succinct. > > (the Rev) Vince > I'm sorry to hear some people want to stay ignorant. As long as you don't keep spreading simplistic lies I will not bother you. I also notice that NONE of the arguments I've made to counter those simplistic lies have been addressed, let alone rebuffed, by those people who choose to delete my posts and instead attack me personally or dissect my quotes when all I wish is that they would look at history and the whole picture. Again, I didn't join JMDL to spread Israeli propaganda. I never addressed the middle east issue first. I only tried to rebuff the slander because someone had to do it. A final and scary thought comes to mind: Of course you're not bullshitting when you say you never used the name Eichmann. You simply forgot. From a psychoanalysis point of view, I find it interesting that you don't even REMEMBER using the names Heydrich or Eichmann for someone as affected by the Shoah as you claim to be. What I mean is this: you can write pages of preaching love, but somewhere in the middle of it I see hate. Now when you adamantly deny and even FORGET something that STRONG that you wrote only 3 weeks ago, then PERHAPS this is revealing. I sincerely hope this is not true, but "action speaks louder than words". In this case it's not action but it's those little words of hate that tip me off. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 12:57:23 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC CD Prices Hiya Brenda, Glad to see your posts again! Question for you, since you're so closely involved with the music biz: I read in the RS that the #1 selling CD sold a lot of its units because the label was offering $2 rebates to the dealers, and the dealers in turn dropped their pricing to $8.99 or so, and in turn sold a lot of units. Do you see this as a trend? I've been encouraged to see some new releases (Joe Henry, John Mayer and some others) at a $7.99 or so price tag. I know the CD business is ailing and just wonder if the prices for CD's are going to FINALLY start to lower a bit to generate traffic & sales. Whaddya think? Bob NP: Randy Newman, "Old Man" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 09:58:36 -0700 From: Richard Goldman Subject: Bonnie Raitt's band et all [NJC] Shameless plug/information dissemination here. Bonnie's 'percussion section': Ricky Fataar (drums) and James "Hutch" Hutchinson (bass) are appearing along with Nina Gerber on guitar, and Michael Rodriguez (Boz Skaggs sound engineer/keyboardist), and Danny Cao of Vinyl (trumpet), Jane Brody (vocals) and Garrin on the guitar(s) at the: CD Release Event for Garrin Benfield's new CD: "Nowhere Is Brighter". This Thursday May 9 at 8:30pm at The Great American Music Hall in San Francisco. For the event poster, click on: http://home.earthlink.net/~richard2sf/pix/garrinInconcert.jpg Garrin counts Joni as one of his primary influences, so ... this is relevant! VERY relevant! Oh, not to mention . . . Bonnie's tour is on hiatus this week, and ...she is in town .... so..... ... the event will have 'special surprise guests' as well. Visit http://www.garrin.com for details, and ... to listen to 3 tracks from the new CD. It's been described as "lush, melodic, bluesy and thematic" by reviewers so far in pre-release, and is one fantastic album. Several JMDL'rs (you know who you are!) have seen Garrin in acoustic solo at the G/L/B/T Songwriter series he hosts once a month, and this CD is the 'next step' for him, for sure. He rises many notches above anything he's ever done before on it, and . . . the show Thursday night is sure to be spectacular. I'm so proud and happy and excited for Garrin! Richard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 18:08:32 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: this list, the world and EVERYTHING (NJC) > But I do understand where it comes from when Mack states about > "having all knowledge" and people being intimidated. i don't understand it all. I share my thoughts. i don't tell people they are bad for thinking differnelty. nor do i think i know everything and have never siad so. It seems to me that when i feel differently or think differentl the accusations fly. > You don't mean to have > that effect, you just want to be honest, but the one thing I would ask you > to do is just to have a bit more thought or empathy, before you say > anything, for the effect of your words, for how people are going to feel, > how they may misunderstand your statements of facts-as-you-see-them for > something more aggressive, accusatory i cannot be responsible for people misinterpreting what I write. If, howeevr, i was deliberately being abusive and nasty, which cannot be misinterpreted, that would be entirely different. And as for empathy-well again plaese don't judge what you don't know. > . (I experienced this myself some time ago, Colin, when I > You probably did not mean it that way, but that's how it > came across!) or how you interpreted it. If I remember rightly you mentioned that the news you heard was on R4 and i merely pointed out that we have loads of other news outlets here. We get the news from all over the world, as it happens-from the USA to Mongolia to Holland to Afica wherever it is. That was all I meant. I am not interested in petty power games like 'getting one over' as you put it.(it is also not possible in email to show tone of voice or facial expression) > > And one last thing, Colin: please never say things again like "I know I am > bad, my parents were right, that's why they abused me". We all know you did > not mean it, you meant to shock, but it was so unnecessary! please do not judge what you don't understand. you really have no idea whether i meant it or not. please, i am not being nasty to you , just telling you do not udnertsand or know me or what prompted that mail. At the time of writing i FELT everyhting i wrote, and meant evry word. i don't need for you to believ it.it is a feeling i fight all the time. sometimes it is easier to just give in to it. I regret sending it deeply because it shames me. not because you have misunderstood it but becasue it was too open a show of how i felt right then. I can't go into a long explanation of why those feelings are there and why they overtake me. it has to do with mood swingsand shame. (i don't know if this will make sense: when one has had to fight for one's very survival, for the survival of slef, it is very tiring. The voices of destruction are always always there. So the temptation to just give in, admit it was all your fault, admit that you are bad and e=deserve punishment is very very great. in the hope that such an admition will bring the said punsihment and then it will all be over, that somehow it will bring relief. it doesn't of course. it just makes you feel foolish and stupid-and i feel now that i am sharing mcuh more of myself than I want to.) > Everybody on > this list must be full of sympathy not really interested in sympathy. it misses the point. > and understand how difficult it > may still be. sorry that is not so but iw ouldn't expect it to be. > But don't use this as almost emotional blackmail when someone > disagrees with you! i didn't. it had nothing at all to with being disagreed with. i was laready on shaky ground anyway and then i was cruelly attcaked for no good reason. how did you miss that? and again, the way you interpret things is not fact-just the way you choose to view it. > Please Colin, understand what I say, I try but I cannot help how you or anybody else interprets me. I never know how to accept a mail like which is intersperesed with kindness and judgement. You have jumped to conclusions about me without undertsanding. when I write, I try to stick to the point and keep mys entences short. i guess this can give the rreader a sense of abruptness. Being abrupt is not the same as being rude or abusive or whatevr. I can't forever just keep saying so. I am NOT responsible for the way people interpret my every word. There are people here who write in such a way that to me comes across in all sorts of ways. most of the time i just ignore it and assume they don't inted that. However, when someone says they believe all Arabs are evil, i have a right to say 'that is racist'. i will not apololgise for that. i was not wrong. the statement was offensive.I was not the only person who said so but I was the only attacked for it. It seems to me that too many people atke being disaggreed with as a personal attack. As already stated I have never written in the manner of that mail to anyone and i have seen this happen time and time again here. People who hold ideas, including me, are going to get uptight when they see those ideas disagreed with. the degree of uptightedness will depend on how personally they take things. as always, ifeel the need to explain myself and I am sick of it. I would NEVER presume to tell anybody how they feel or how they should feel or assume I know what their motives are. It baffles me that people think they have the right to do this. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 10:05:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Lost direction: Mine, not Joni's (Was, Please allowink. . .) Agreed. To me, Joni's "Wild Things Run Fast" is among her best work. You can put in on right after any of the other biggies without a let down. The lyrics are top-notch. (I mean top-notch on the *Joni*-scale.) It's all inventive. Hell, it's even *FUN*. To me, "Wild Things Run Fast" is among the essential Joni discs. Highly, mucho recommended. Lama Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 10:21:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: Lost direction: Mine, not Joni's (Was, Please allowink. . .) Denny wrote, of WTRF: > ... the sound was a surprise, certainly more radio-friendly than expected. I can remember spinning that album for the first time, just after its release, and thinking joyfully, "Goody! Maybe THIS will get some airplay!" Alas ... Lori in MD ~ Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 01:18:44 +0800 From: "James Phillips" Subject: NJC Celine Dion dear list: Someoen had requeted that someone from the list who had gotten Celine's new album yay or nay it. Well, I got it last weekend at Kmart, and listened to it so much it drove my husband up the wall LOL. I think it is a group of well written well sung well produced songs. FYI I do like Celine. I can't understand for the life of me some of the anti-Celine sentiment I have observed since coming back to the list. James Phillips Urbana IL now playing: "It's a Man's World" by Cher - -- Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 18:23:05 +0100 From: ReckersL@ebrd.com Subject: RE: this list, the world and EVERYTHING (NJC) Dear Colin, I want to quickly respond. Firstly, I really don't want to spend too much time on the Radio 4 issue again, it's too unimportant, but of course I know there are other sources! But the BBC represents to some extent a nation's mentality, certainly if compared to other national TV and radio stations - that is all. Maybe you're right, it's just that you make short statements and that's what I was trying to say: they can come over hard, judgmental, even if you don't mean it. Colin I'm not trying to attack you by sweetening what I say with some compliments! I have enormous respect for you and agree with most of what you say (and a lot of it fills me with great feelings of empathy, I was just trying to explain why we don't always achieve the effect we intend! No, we're not responsible for what people imagine they read in our words, but we can try to be careful by anticipating some of it - that's what communication is about! And I must apologise if I offended you by talking about emotional blackmail etc. - my communication is obviously not effective either! I can indeed not imagine how you felt, even though I try, believe me! If you felt you had to say it then you should say it! What I was trying to say was much more supportive, so please try to see it that way (and I'm putting it in capitals not because I am shouting but because it's important: ) COLIN I WANTED YOU TO FEEL SECURE ENOUGH IN OUR SUPPORT FOR YOU THAT YOU WOULD NEVER EVER FEEL THE NEED TO SAY THAT! For instance (and this is a simplified example, Colin, not directly applicable to you!) If someone feels truly loved but the person who loves him disagrees over a certain subject, that first person should not need to react by saying "You don't love me, because you disagree" - the love should always be there as a given. That's what I was trying to say and I'm sorry if it did not come across. OK, I'll leave it at that for now but have a nice evening, Colin! Lieve. -----Original Message----- From: colin [SMTP:colin@tantra-apso.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 6:09 PM To: ReckersL@ebrd.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: this list, the world and EVERYTHING (NJC) > But I do understand where it comes from when Mack states about > "having all knowledge" and people being intimidated. i don't understand it all. I share my thoughts. i don't tell people they are bad for thinking differnelty. nor do i think i know everything and have never siad so. It seems to me that when i feel differently or think differentl the accusations fly. > You don't mean to have > that effect, you just want to be honest, but the one thing I would ask you > to do is just to have a bit more thought or empathy, before you say > anything, for the effect of your words, for how people are going to feel, > how they may misunderstand your statements of facts-as-you-see-them for > something more aggressive, accusatory i cannot be responsible for people misinterpreting what I write. If, howeevr, i was deliberately being abusive and nasty, which cannot be misinterpreted, that would be entirely different. And as for empathy-well again plaese don't judge what you don't know. > . (I experienced this myself some time ago, Colin, when I > You probably did not mean it that way, but that's how it > came across!) or how you interpreted it. If I remember rightly you mentioned that the news you heard was on R4 and i merely pointed out that we have loads of other news outlets here. We get the news from all over the world, as it happens-from the USA to Mongolia to Holland to Afica wherever it is. That was all I meant. I am not interested in petty power games like 'getting one over' as you put it.(it is also not possible in email to show tone of voice or facial expression) > > And one last thing, Colin: please never say things again like "I know I am > bad, my parents were right, that's why they abused me". We all know you did > not mean it, you meant to shock, but it was so unnecessary! please do not judge what you don't understand. you really have no idea whether i meant it or not. please, i am not being nasty to you , just telling you do not udnertsand or know me or what prompted that mail. At the time of writing i FELT everyhting i wrote, and meant evry word. i don't need for you to believ it.it is a feeling i fight all the time. sometimes it is easier to just give in to it. I regret sending it deeply because it shames me. not because you have misunderstood it but becasue it was too open a show of how i felt right then. I can't go into a long explanation of why those feelings are there and why they overtake me. it has to do with mood swingsand shame. (i don't know if this will make sense: when one has had to fight for one's very survival, for the survival of slef, it is very tiring. The voices of destruction are always always there. So the temptation to just give in, admit it was all your fault, admit that you are bad and e=deserve punishment is very very great. in the hope that such an admition will bring the said punsihment and then it will all be over, that somehow it will bring relief. it doesn't of course. it just makes you feel foolish and stupid-and i feel now that i am sharing mcuh more of myself than I want to.) > Everybody on > this list must be full of sympathy not really interested in sympathy. it misses the point. > and understand how difficult it > may still be. sorry that is not so but iw ouldn't expect it to be. > But don't use this as almost emotional blackmail when someone > disagrees with you! i didn't. it had nothing at all to with being disagreed with. i was laready on shaky ground anyway and then i was cruelly attcaked for no good reason. how did you miss that? and again, the way you interpret things is not fact-just the way you choose to view it. > Please Colin, understand what I say, I try but I cannot help how you or anybody else interprets me. I never know how to accept a mail like which is intersperesed with kindness and judgement. You have jumped to conclusions about me without undertsanding. when I write, I try to stick to the point and keep mys entences short. i guess this can give the rreader a sense of abruptness. Being abrupt is not the same as being rude or abusive or whatevr. I can't forever just keep saying so. I am NOT responsible for the way people interpret my every word. There are people here who write in such a way that to me comes across in all sorts of ways. most of the time i just ignore it and assume they don't inted that. However, when someone says they believe all Arabs are evil, i have a right to say 'that is racist'. i will not apololgise for that. i was not wrong. the statement was offensive.I was not the only person who said so but I was the only attacked for it. It seems to me that too many people atke being disaggreed with as a personal attack. As already stated I have never written in the manner of that mail to anyone and i have seen this happen time and time again here. People who hold ideas, including me, are going to get uptight when they see those ideas disagreed with. the degree of uptightedness will depend on how personally they take things. as always, ifeel the need to explain myself and I am sick of it. I would NEVER presume to tell anybody how they feel or how they should feel or assume I know what their motives are. It baffles me that people think they have the right to do this. EBRD SECURITY NOTICE This Email has been Virus Scanned _____________________________________________________________ This message may contain privileged information. If you have received this message by mistake, please keep it confidential and return it to the sender. Although we have taken steps to minimise the risk of transmitting software viruses, the EBRD accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by computer viruses and would advise you to carry out your own virus checks. The contents of this e-mail do not necessarily represent the views of the EBRD. ______________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:32:26 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: NJC Celine Dion Sanders (snip) FYI I do like Celine. I can't understand for the life of me some of the anti-Celine sentiment I have observed since coming back to the list. James Phillips Urbana IL now playing: "It's a Man's World" by Cher I don't like Celine as a person, but I did enjoy leafing through 'Death on the Installment Plan' while I was in college. - -jan :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 01:33:38 +0800 From: "James Phillips" Subject: NJC Brenda Russel hey all, Brenda Russell also did some production work on Diana Ross' album "Take Me Higher". The songs that she produced on it were killer in my opinion. I was 13 I believe when Piano in the dark was released as a single. I remember seeing the video for it on VHI and falling in love with the song, and trying to get into Champaign so I could buy the 45 for that song (yes 45s were still made in the late 80's LOL) I never did get the 45 to that song but about a couple months ago, I was shopping at Dollar General and saw a compilation called "Smooth Jazz" that was released by PolyGram Records. Well low and behold, Brenda's Piano in the dark was on it, so I picked up a copy of that cd just for that song. (The other songs turned out to be wonderful as well) James in Urbana IL just done listening to Cher's It's a Man's world, now listening to Labelle's first album as Labelle "Labelle" - -- Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 12:38:41 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: this list, the world and EVERYTHING (NJC) That was a very nice post Lieve. I didn't agree with all you said but respect your right to say it. It was very thought provoking message and gives me reason to try to improve on who and what I am. I thank you for taking the time to write it. Take care, Mack > I've been a JMDLer for a year now, and have only posted about 4 times or so, > each time starting with something like: "I'm basically a lurker, wishing I > could write more often, but I'm too busy" and I suppose that's still true, > although I've since been to two JMDLers mini-gatherings in London, written > personally to a number of people and signed up for the next Jonifest. > Compared to those of you who've been here for years, I still feel humbly > wet, but still the list has firmly become a part of my life, even if in fact > I did not want that to happen - almost like falling in love without wanting > it! > So yes, this message is in the first place intended to be a declaration of > love to all of you. This list is fantastic. And I'm so grateful to new > technology (which we so often blame for causing pollution, alienation etc) > to have created this new dimension, this new way of being able to relate to > other human beings. As a child, I thought "progress" would be robots and > space travel. I never thought it would be so human and intimate, a > completely new way of making friends and getting to understand other people. > In fact I started on another list, another musician I had just discovered. > First, such a list scared me. There is this vast dark space with unknown > people who can read your words and may or may not come out of the dark and > show themselves to you. They can misunderstand you. They can turn nasty. > And sometimes they did so. But I was delighted to find how friendly and > trusting most people could be. Then, as I was delving back into Joni > Mitchell's music, I discovered the JMDL but decided I could only find time > to be a lurker. I never expected to be drawn in like this! As others have > said, this is the most precious, intelligent, humane, funny, honest group of > people I've ever encountered. It's a community. We are experimenting with > tolerance, political and artistic debate, understanding and supporting each > other, and I think it's wonderful. > But sometimes a person gets hurt and I hate that, especially because I've > come to understand and like the people involved, both sides. I hope I don't > sound terribly patronising and I don't want to flog a dead horse (as Susan > said!), but there are really some things I feel I have to take the time to > write (and I hope enough of you will take the time to read!) about keeping > the precious good we've got, and avoiding piling up destructiveness. > To keep this message as digestable as possible, I'll just number the > different things I want to say (that's what happens with lurkers: they store > up too much for too long!). > > 1) I've seen so many wonderful postings, insightful or funny, that don't get > any response, probably because people are too busy or too shy or feel they > can't add anything sensible... and sometimes the writer will comment > afterwards "well it seems like no-one noticed" which is definitely untrue, > although it's so normal to feel that way. I just want to remind those > people that they have probably made quite an impact on quite a number of > people, even if they never heard of it. They may save themselves a lot of > upset if they keep that in mind. And it takes confidence and trust to do > so. > > 2) I totally second John Van Tiel's message (even though he did not list the > qualities of the Belgians :-) !) and would just like to add the following > observations of my own: > COLIN: > yes I have loads of respect for you, and like John I would love to meet you. > You're honest and you're brave. You have thought deeply about a number of > subjects, obviously because you have experienced so many difficult things > yourself. But I do understand where it comes from when Mack states about > "having all knowledge" and people being intimidated. You don't mean to have > that effect, you just want to be honest, but the one thing I would ask you > to do is just to have a bit more thought or empathy, before you say > anything, for the effect of your words, for how people are going to feel, > how they may misunderstand your statements of facts-as-you-see-them for > something more aggressive, accusatory. I think this is also the point Debra > Shea was making. (I experienced this myself some time ago, Colin, when I > mentioned that compared to the rest of Europe, I found the mentality in the > UK quite insular, and I quoted the newscover on the BBC as an example. You > disagreed with a virtual one-liner which I felt was not trying to understand > what I was saying but just trying to have one up on me, and I decided to > leave it at that and not answer back, because I felt it was not a fertile > exchange of ideas. You probably did not mean it that way, but that's how it > came across!) > And one last thing, Colin: please never say things again like "I know I am > bad, my parents were right, that's why they abused me". We all know you did > not mean it, you meant to shock, but it was so unnecessary! Everybody on > this list must be full of sympathy for what you have gone through, and > admire you for how you have got through it, and understand how difficult it > may still be. But don't use this as almost emotional blackmail when someone > disagrees with you! Please Colin, understand what I say, don't take this as > another attack on you, I say this with love: we love and respect you too > much for you to resort to this! (and no, I can't imagine what it's been > like, but I will always have enormous respect for it!) > And on a lighter note: congratulations with your knitting fame. (To answer > another unanswered question discretely: 25cm in my case :-) ! ) I do count > on meeting you one day! > MACK: > We did not start off well, you sent me a negative response of which I can't > even remember the details. I also think your reply to Colin about therapy > was out of order. But I have developed a deep respect for you, ever since > you wrote that heartfelt message about being worried about discrimination at > work and in your home town, and the circumstances that kept you there. I'll > always like you for that. This is what is so great about this list: we're > family. I may not like everything my brother does or says, but he's my > brother and I feel for him. By the way we share our problems and feelings > and by the way we accept each other, we make this community real. But Mack, > don't have too many prejudices! You know yourself how awful it is to be > judged because you're gay. So don't you think it would be better to be open > to France and the French (and any other nation) than just to declare you > would not care to go there? OK, maybe I'm being patronising now, but I > would suggest that we ought to be open to everything this world has to > offer, that we should want to meet as much diversity as possible - but I > agree, it's your choice, brother! > LAURENT: > When I saw your first pro-Israel (or anti-Arab) messages I was surprised > they were tolerated on this list. Not that I thought everything you said was > wrong (in truth, I disagreed with most as it was all too selective, part > truth), but from my experience the issue is so explosive that it could > easily destroy the list. It's been a cause of argument between me and a > close friend for many years (him being completely against Israel and > therefore me defending Israel to some degree, while seeing both sides) to > the extent that we've agreed to totally avoid the subject, and even now with > everything that's going on, we'd rather discuss the price of rhubard than > mention the dreaded subject. I was inclined to do with your political > messages what some others said they do: delete without reading. But slowly > I've come to appreciate you too. You're sincere and are open to have > anything you say questioned, you encourage dialogue, I've got to appreciate > that. I must say I don't know the truth about the Middle East, it's too > confusing and it gets worse the more I hear, maybe I envy your certainty. I > also think you got a bit more stick than you deserved. For instance (and I > fear the stick coming down on me now) I did not think the profiling message > was racist. You did not say: only arab men do wrong in the world. You > said: only (or mainly) arab-type young men carry out the sort of attacks for > which airports etc could profile people. So this is not to disagree with > Vince (my good friend) that white people caused the holocaust, or that > grannies can kill babies, or that middle class women can poison their > husbands, but we're talking about checking here for suicide bombers on > airoplanes and the like! And no, it does not reassure me, when I have to > catch a plane, that out of political correctness just as many grannies and > smurfs as young men of middle eastern appearance have to be searched! > So I think as some other people (Susan, Catherine McKay) said: let's not > jump at each other over every word, every joke, every opinion someone > expresses, because it's so easy to misunderstand what's behind it. Let it > sink!!! > > So to end this long point 2 if you're still with me by now: I like you all, > all of you who seem at each other's throat. The words in common are: you are > all honest people trying to express yourselves in an honest, vulnerable way. > You come from different experiences and have completely different outlooks, > but I have real respect for all of you. Please don't give up on each other > or on our family! > > 3) Lastly, and now I'm really sticking my neck out: abortion. > To state first: I am totally non-religious, in favour of freedom where it > comes to lifestyles, sexual orientation etc, and I'd call myself a feminist. > But try as I may, I cannot put abortion into the "freedom" or "feminism" > category. I remember, as I'm sure John VT does, in the early seventies the > slogan "baas in eigen buik" in Belgium and Holland, which means "boss of > your own belly(stomach)" and yes, it sounded so right. Women in charge of > their own body. It fitted in with women being allowed to use contraceptives > or having sex before marriage. Then, about 20 years ago, I read a book > about the facts, a pro-life journalist who spent some months under cover in > an abortion clinic. She saw foetuses of 3 or 4 months, looking in every way > like little babies, being collected in buckets. She described how foetuses > of say 6 months were effectively killed and cut out, while others of exactly > the same age, in the maternity wing of the hospital, were being born > prematurely and nursed to survival. She concluded with great sadness that > although she still had to be in favour of abortion because of "realism", she > admitted abortion was murder - or at least a killing. It devastated my cosy > opinions. I have friends who've had abortions and I respect them, I praise > myself extremely lucky for I could have been faced with the awful choice a > few times... But it does not stop me from trying to be honest about the > matter: I don't think it is a simple matter of allowing the woman the > choice. (And I don't want to go into the issue that I think in some cases > the father should also be allowed a say...) But my main point is this: if > it's OK for a woman to kill a foetus while she's pregnant because the foetus > is not yet "viable", what is to stop a woman from killing a newborn which > can also not live without her help? Why can't she leave it alone in a room > to starve? It may be so much easier than having to own up to it and put it > up for adoption! I mean, there is no clear line to draw. Just because a > baby is in my belly, I don't believe I can kill it. And yes, I know there > are heartrendering stories of girls who've been raped etc, and I know I > can't have a good answer to make it all right, but in those cases I have to > close my eyes in pain and say "Please do it early, before the cells multiply > and make hands and little feet, before it's really a little creature!" I > don't think abortion should be allowed in late stages, e.g. because the > woman suddenly finds that her partner will not stand by her. In that case, > please give it up to adoption, don't kill it. I find it impossible to say > that people should have a free choice about this. In that case, there > should also be free choice for infanticide and probable patrocide (killing > old senile parents) and while we're at it, killing of any other sick or > incapacitated person who cannot live without dedicated care from others... > I don't want to be seen in the catholic or right-wing camp because they are > even against contraceptives and I don't share in any way their outlook on > life. But my conscience does not allow me to condone a killing. Too many > people, especially men who would never have to make the decision, are pro > abortion because it is the liberal thing to do, without ever thinking what > it means. > > There. That's my verbal diarrhoea done. I hope I haven't been too preachy > - that's the risk of any one-way message. But if you react and I hope you > do: please do it kindly! Don't jump, let it sink! Because we are family > and we're precious! > Love to you all, > Lieve. > > > _____________________________________________________________ > This message may contain privileged information. If you have received this message by mistake, please keep it confidential and return it to the sender. > Although we have taken steps to minimise the risk of transmitting software viruses, the EBRD accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by computer viruses and would advise you to carry out your own virus checks. > The contents of this e-mail do not necessarily represent the views of the EBRD. > ______________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 13:41:38 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Celine Dion <> Different strokes for different folks, James...I'm glad you enjoy her, I just find her vocals totally lacking in anything real or soulful. I don't consider myself "Anti-Celine", it's just a matter of preference. Bob NP: Harry Nilsson, "So Long Dad" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 12:56:32 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Greetings from another Joni fan Hi, great to have you. Didn't see your name there so that is why I didn't use it. Have not heard of the Barnes and Noble political leaning. Would be interested in knowing more so if you have the time, or the inclination, email me back off this list and tell me about it. thanks, mack > Hello, JMDLer's. I'm a fellow Joni fan, relatively new to the list, and glad > to have found this community. Like many of you, my favorites encompass those > first nine magnificent albums - even today, those warm opening notes of I > Had A King are all I need to be transported back to a youthfulness of > exploration and discovery and possibilities. I find Joni's early verses > especially to combine beautiful heights of poetry, poignancy, and > romanticism, free of manipulative sentimentality, always accessible to the > heart and mind without ever condescending to the dictates of commercialism. > > Anyway, I'm writing today just to say hi in general, but also to thank > persons unknown on this list who alerted those of us who were unaware of the > availability of the Shadows And Light DVD from Barnes & Noble's website, > www.bn.com. Normally, I avoid Barnes & Noble like the plague because I do > not wish to give the slightest monetary support to the right-wing politics > of their ownership. But in the case of a Joni rarity that I've been unable > to locate elsewhere, I had to make an exception. It arrived this morning, so > I'll view it this evening when I get home from work. According to the info > on the back of the box, it's a 75 minute program with a set list that's > somewhat different than the double-CD: > > 1. Shadows & Light > 2. In France They Kiss On Main Street > 3. Edith & The Kingpin > 4. Coyote > 5. Free Man In Paris > 6. Goodbye Pork Pie Hat > 7. Jaco's Solo / The High & The Mighty/ Third Stone From The Sun > 8. Dry Cleaner From Des Moines > 9. Amelia / Pat's Solo > 10. Hejira > 11. Black Crow > 12. Furry Sings The Blues > 13. Raised On Robbery > 14. Why Do Fools Fall In Love > 15. Shadows & Light > > At $41.84, it's a pricey item, but one that I consider a must-have. I've > noticed that DVD's go out of print unexpectedly, so I was glad to be able to > scoop this one up while it's still available. Unfortunately, I have deleted > last month's digests, and don't remember who it was among you that mentioned > the availability of this item, but to You Know Who You Are - Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 12:58:29 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: joni mentioned on leno Traveling through England on a bus with they must have been magical. mack > Carole King and her daughter, Louise Goffin, were the musical guests on the > Tonight Show with Jay Leno last night. > > After performing, they sat down with Jay and he asked Louise what it was like > growing up with Carole for a mother. Louise mentioned traveling through > England on a bus with "James Taylor and Joni Mitchell, who drew pictures of > my sister and me." > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 13:01:31 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: NJC Celine Dion James, I am not a big Celine fan but not a detractor either. I did particularly enjoy her version of the song that was the soundtrack, I think, for the movie with Robert Redford. heheh Not much info there. Sorry. My neice thinks she is the second coming and adores her. mack, i think. > dear list: > > Someoen had requeted that someone from the list who had gotten Celine's new album yay or nay it. Well, I got it last weekend at Kmart, and listened to it so much it drove my husband up the wall LOL. I think it is a group of well written well sung well produced songs. > > FYI I do like Celine. I can't understand for the life of me some of the anti-Celine sentiment I have observed since coming back to the list. > > James Phillips Urbana IL > > now playing: "It's a Man's World" by Cher > > -- > > Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 18:41:56 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: this list, the world and EVERYTHING (NJC) I have no doubt at all that you are coming from a good place and that you meant no harm. you wrote: "You don't love me, because you disagree" - the love should always be there as a given. this is very very dificult one. I don't have a clue what love feels like. I accept it on an intellectual level. no I know what it feels like to feel love fo another or for an animal. i juts don't don't know what it feels like to feel loved. Not becasue I am not loved-I know I am-but i am not able to feel it. I don't think i am disliked when I am disagreeed with. not at all. only when abuse is hurled at me. then i naturally assume i am disliked! bonne nuit colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 13:14:34 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Please allowink me to introducink myself welcome Denny. mack > Being the talkative sort, Ive been semi-successful viz. silence, trying to get a sense of whats going on in JMDL-land. Anyway, Joni fan since 67 or 68 (memory fails an exact date--it mightve been the times), w/a big thanks to a long-ago girlfriend who said, She wrote Both sides now! with the emphasis that _that_ amounted to something (and, begrudgingly, I've had to admit that I knew so much less). Remember seeing Joni on The Joey Bishop Show (8/68?) singing The Fiddle and the Drum, which I thought to be an incredibly courageous act, given that, 1. it was a capella; and 2. not on her debut LP. Jeez! thought I, or something similar--mesmerized. _This_ was someone to pay attention to. And did, followed for many years, her return to the Mariposa festival70 was wonderful; the jazz excursions, when I was paddling for life in Ornette Coleman and the Art Ensemble of Chicago; only to lose her direction with _Wild things run fast_. Which I attribute to the weirdnes! > s of sonic Joni, ie, synthd-out and other sounds. RE: WTRF, Ive long wondered, why in the hell would she clutter good songs with Steve Lukathers processed 80s guitar babblings?!!? (This goes somewhat earlier: The Jungle Line, is a really fine performance, on a favorite albumsand I esp. like the drums; but that synth--at times like fingernails across a lower consciousness.) And most of the 80s were a blurtho I continued to buy each release, hoping for direction, until _Taming the tiger_ got my ear then _Turbulent Indigo_ really grabbed me, again; but despite all of that, to paraphrase the Natl Rifle Assoc. (how often does one see that reference on this list?), you can have that old vinyl when you pry them from my cold. . .blah, blah, blah. > > Wow! Am I full of myself?!!? Such blather! Well, consider that its spring. That its been a lovely day here in the mountains of central Arizona. Consider that the Stones are going on tour again. > > Personal favorites have to include Heijira, a favorite since the first time the needle hit the vinylperhaps at the very top of a very crowded list. Anyway, enough of my nonsense. You folk have more important things to do. > > Except for this: I'm happy to be here. > > Denny > > With a tip of the hat to Boris Badenov > > NP: Exile on Main Street: The sunlight scares the daylights out of me! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 14:28:35 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Nick Drake film: Screenings USA(njc) > [Original Message] > From: nickdrakefilm > Date: 5/8/02 10:38:23 AM > Subject: Screenings USA > > To the group: > > Screenings of 'A Skin Too Few' in San Francisco in the Roxie Cinema will > take place from15th-21st May. Depending on visitors it hopefully will mean = > a > start for a US arthouse release. So please attend. > > also still coming up: > Toronto (North by North East) 6-8 June > Nashville (Nashville Indep. Film Fest) 5-9 June > Dahlonega Int. Filmfestival US 27 -30 June > Sound Unseen Film & Music Fest., Minneapolis, end of September > Chicago Underground Film Festival, Augustus > 22nd Atlantic Film Festival, Halifax, Nova Scotia September 13-21, 2002 > and possibly St. Louis Film Festival 14 =AD24 November - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #204 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?