From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #196 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, May 6 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 196 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Bush (NJC) long ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Dead Can Dance njc ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Bush (NJC) long [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: Bush (NJC) long [FredNow@aol.com] bonnie raitt njc ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Bush (NJC) long ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: Bush (NJC) long ["Dolphie Bush" ] Spider-Man (NJC) [Lindsay Moon ] Re: Bush (NJC) [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Spider-Man (NJC) [Vince Lavieri ] Cinematic Joni, Perfect Joni njc now ["Kate Bennett" ] Natalie on Joni ["William" ] Re: Bush (NJC) long ["Kakki" ] Re: Dead Can Dance njc [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Middle East NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Bonnie Raitt's I can't make you love me NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Uncle John's Mom & Dad ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: apology njc [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Fred's remarks (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Fred's remarks (NJC) [Deb Messling ] Re: Fred's remarks (NJC) [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Fred's remarks (NJC) ["Dolphie Bush" ] Subject: apologyNJC ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Just some loose, unfinished thoughts of a Dutch lurker (NJC) ["Jim L'] Re: bonnie raitt njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Fred's remarks (NJC) [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Middle East NJC [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Middle East NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Diltz in Chicago [Susan Guzzi ] RE: Just some loose, unfinished thoughts of a Dutch lurker (NJC) ["Heathe] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 10:54:05 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long This is so weird....I just got this in my inbox,dated:March 14. Has anybody else gotten this? Did you just send this out Kakki? It seems like at read this before. Also,Susan responded to a post of mine that did not show up in my inbox until just now. I wrote it late last night. ESP,Susan? Bree...and is like I'm in the Twilight Zone. >From: "Kakki" >Reply-To: "Kakki" >To: "Randy Remote" , >Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:37:57 -0800 > >Thank you for the links, Randy. Everything I've read about the Patriot Act >does not concern me but I'll take another look at it. I'm still of the >belief that it is for going after dangerous terrorists in the U.S. who have >and have been planning to harm us for years and not for some whim of some >"aristocracy" to go after all Americans. > > > More recently, LA cops shot rubber bullets and attacked with clubs >protesters at the > > Democratic convention last year, and arbitrarily arrested and detained > > 600 people, some just passersby. > >Where did you read this? I was RIGHT THERE almost the entire time and have >the photographs documenting most of it. The police for almost an HOUR >requested repeatedly that the crowd disperse before they went in. Most >people left the area as requested. I stayed until almost the last minute. >I did not see anywhere near 600 people still hanging around. The reports I >heard were that only around 10-25 people were shot with rubber bullets. The >last I saw them they were climbing over the protective fences to get onto >Staples Center property. By the way, these people were NOT Democratic >party >supporters nor were they Republican protesters. They were rag-tag groups >of >organizations I'd never heard of before, but they were all anti-Democrat >and >protesting the Democrats convention. Maybe you would know better which >groups they were. They seemed to be some of those enviro-radical groups >and >the "free Mumia" crowd. Would you rather they'd stormed the convention at >Staples Center while the Gores and Clintons were in the house? > >I frankly do not understand all the concern over the loss of reproductive >rights. They are protected by the highest law of the land and I cannot >conceive how any group can overturn that law. On the other hand, I believe >that people have a right to speak of their beliefs based on their religion. >Just because they speak up against it does not mean they can overturn the >law. It is certainly not only the Christian right who are pro-life. There >are a large number of Christian left who believe the same. Their religion >comes before their political party. There are also Jews and other >religions >who believe abortion is taking a life. They don't like their tax dollars >going to fund abortions, particularly in other countries. I think they have >a right to their opinion. I personally think it is an individual decision >and that government should be out of it completely. > >Kakki _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 11:08:57 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Dead Can Dance njc Does anybody know anything about this group? A former co-worker who is studying massage therapy practiced on my yesterday and she played 'The Serpent's Egg' while I was on the table. I was very intrigued by it. Mark E in Seattle somewhat bummed because we aren't going to make Jonifest this year - again.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 14:15:34 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long Bush absolutly disgusts me.I get furious just thinking about him.I can't bear to see him on tv or in the newpaper,or god forbid listen to him.how on earth did we "elect" a moronic jerk like him?If he gets reelected in 2004,I may move out of the country.he is desicable. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 14:15:37 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long "Kakki" writes: >I frankly do not understand all the concern over the loss of reproductive >rights. They are protected by the highest law of the land and I cannot >conceive how any group can overturn that law. I know this isn't what you meant, but there is one group who can, and one day just might, overturn that law: the Supreme Court. And I think any supporter of reproductive rights *should* be very concerned. Just because a majority of the population supports choice doesn't mean the Supreme Court won't overturn Roe v. Wade. After all, a majority of the voting population wanted Al Gore as president, and look what they got (never mind the chads, it's the two thousand elderly Jews who mistakenly voted for Buchanan, plus the tens of thousands of upright citizens, mostly black, who were denied their voting rights simply because their name and/or birthdate and/or social security number happened to be the same as a felon's). >On the other hand, I believe >that people have a right to speak of their beliefs based on their religion. >Just because they speak up against it does not mean they can overturn the >law. It is certainly not only the Christian right who are pro-life. Whatever their constituency, it really peeves me that the anti-reproductive rights contingent has appropriated the concept of "pro-life" to legitimize their agenda, with the insulting implication that those who favor reproductive rights are "anti-life" (not to mention the equally insulting implication that those who are against choice, even when the life of the mother is in danger, are "pro-life.") Bullshit. The proper appellation for the two sides of this issue are "choice" and "anti-choice." Everyone is in favor of life. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 13:32:20 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: bonnie raitt njc I am a big fan of her too Abby. Had quite a few 8 track tapes of her back in my college days and haven't been able to find most of them now. This was long before she was the star she is now. I first saw her through a fuzzy picture on t.v. late one night way back when. It was soundstage. Fell in love with her then. Remember one song called "thank you" off one of those lost albums. It was superb. One album I did remember and found another copy of was "give it up." It is still my alltime favorite and her version of "too long at the fair" is out of this world. "Nothing seems to matter" would be my alltime favorite tune by Bonnie. You probably have that one but if not, find it. Excellent. mack ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 13:33:45 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long I couldn't agree more. mack > Bush absolutly disgusts me.I get furious just thinking about > him.I can't bear to see him on tv or in the newpaper,or god forbid listen to > him.how on earth did we "elect" a moronic jerk like him?If he gets reelected > in 2004,I may move out of the country.he is desicable. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 13:35:05 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long Well, I just got it too Bree. I seem to remember reading it before or, if not, something very similar. Great post, as usual, Kakki. mack > This is so weird....I just got this in my inbox,dated:March 14. Has anybody > else gotten this? Did you just send this out Kakki? It seems like at read > this before. Also,Susan responded to a post of mine that did not show up in > my inbox until just now. I wrote it late last night. ESP,Susan? > > Bree...and is like I'm in the Twilight Zone. > > > >From: "Kakki" > >Reply-To: "Kakki" > >To: "Randy Remote" , > >Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long > >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:37:57 -0800 > > > >Thank you for the links, Randy. Everything I've read about the Patriot Act > >does not concern me but I'll take another look at it. I'm still of the > >belief that it is for going after dangerous terrorists in the U.S. who have > >and have been planning to harm us for years and not for some whim of some > >"aristocracy" to go after all Americans. > > > > > More recently, LA cops shot rubber bullets and attacked with clubs > >protesters at the > > > Democratic convention last year, and arbitrarily arrested and detained > > > 600 people, some just passersby. > > > >Where did you read this? I was RIGHT THERE almost the entire time and have > >the photographs documenting most of it. The police for almost an HOUR > >requested repeatedly that the crowd disperse before they went in. Most > >people left the area as requested. I stayed until almost the last minute. > >I did not see anywhere near 600 people still hanging around. The reports I > >heard were that only around 10-25 people were shot with rubber bullets. The > >last I saw them they were climbing over the protective fences to get onto > >Staples Center property. By the way, these people were NOT Democratic > >party > >supporters nor were they Republican protesters. They were rag-tag groups > >of > >organizations I'd never heard of before, but they were all anti-Democrat > >and > >protesting the Democrats convention. Maybe you would know better which > >groups they were. They seemed to be some of those enviro-radical groups > >and > >the "free Mumia" crowd. Would you rather they'd stormed the convention at > >Staples Center while the Gores and Clintons were in the house? > > > >I frankly do not understand all the concern over the loss of reproductive > >rights. They are protected by the highest law of the land and I cannot > >conceive how any group can overturn that law. On the other hand, I believe > >that people have a right to speak of their beliefs based on their religion. > >Just because they speak up against it does not mean they can overturn the > >law. It is certainly not only the Christian right who are pro-life. There > >are a large number of Christian left who believe the same. Their religion > >comes before their political party. There are also Jews and other > >religions > >who believe abortion is taking a life. They don't like their tax dollars > >going to fund abortions, particularly in other countries. I think they have > >a right to their opinion. I personally think it is an individual decision > >and that government should be out of it completely. > > > >Kakki > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 11:37:58 -0700 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: Spider-Man (NJC) Hi, Vince. We went to S-M on Friday evening with a large group and although I made a point of getting there way early, somehow ended up watching the show from the second row. (Long story.) I agree with you on many of your "holes" in the movie and had some of my own. Having become fairly well-informed about the original comics because of my 5-year-old son's fascination with Batman and Spider-Man comics, in the original comic, Peter Parker designed his own web shooter and sewed his own costume. In the movie, the web shooting is introduced as part of the result of the spider bite he gets and he just shows up in the slick-looking costume, which I thought looked great. (And I loved those beautiful drawings, probably originals by Stan Lee and the other gentleman responsible for the comic.) I read part of a review either in People or Entertainment Weekly in which the director said they didn't want to show Peter Parker sewing. Huh? I think I would have preferred seeing him working out the science experiment and making his costume from scratch. Also, in the comic, Peter Parker/Spider-Man is also a lot more witty and sarcastic with his foes. I thought that was sorely missing in the movie. The Green Goblin, while very well done by DaFoe (sp?) was so over-the-top creepy, it kind of negated the opportunity for humor. And the last patriotic scene I felt was a cheesy last-minute add-on after the Sept. 11 attack. But all that aside, I too enjoyed it very much and thought the characters were great. I'm sure we'll be at the sequels too! Thanks for sharing your comments. Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 14:49:07 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) Bree Mcdonough wrote: > This is so weird....I just got this in my inbox,dated:March 14. Has anybody > else gotten this? I just got it too. It was a post that Kakki had evidently put up on March 14, since that was a thread title de jour. (I checked my old Joni posts.) Cyber space ate it until today, I guess. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 15:04:11 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Spider-Man (NJC) Lindsay Moon wrote: > Hi, Vince. We went to S-M on Friday evening be careful on how you word that; might be easier to type out Spider-Man rather than refer to going to and enjoing S-M. Just a thought... :-) > > the movie, the web shooting is introduced as part of the result of the > spider bite he gets yeah, that was cool though, when he was trying to figure out to work it > and he just shows up in the slick-looking costume, > which I thought looked great. great costume; I kept waiting for a scene when he went to a costume store or someplace. He looked great in that costume. But where did the costume come from? Plot hole! > (And I loved those beautiful drawings, > probably originals by Stan Lee and the other gentleman responsible for the > comic.) those were great sketches, had to have been Stan Lee > Also, in the comic, Peter > Parker/Spider-Man is also a lot more witty and sarcastic with his foes. I agree, could have puched up the dialogue more > I > thought that was sorely missing in the movie. The Green Goblin, while very > well done by DaFoe (sp?) was so over-the-top creepy, it kind of negated the > opportunity for humor. Dafoe added a lot of dimension to the character, the character was so full of torment and added to the depth. (Wonder if the good side of that character - Dr Osborrn? - realized the Green Goblin was bombing a building where his son was, just a thought.) I see in the paper that the next flick, with Raimi directing again and Maguire and Durst signed for at least two more, wil feature Dr Octpus and the Lizard. > And the last patriotic scene I felt was a cheesy > last-minute add-on after the Sept. 11 attack. Oh yeah, I agree, way too obvious. > But all that aside, I too > enjoyed it very much and thought the characters were great. I'm sure we'll > be at the sequels too! Yeah, despite all the above, what a fun flick! I watched a thing on MTV today, the MTV special to introduce Spider-Man (great marketing concept) and it was such a rush to see the film clips, especially after seeing the movie. I just really thought it was all such fun! I'd go see this movie again right now if I didn't have other stuff to do. It was just a blast to have such fun at the movies. I never even finished my pop and barely finished the popcorn, a sure test of how enthralled I am. > Thanks for sharing your comments. You too! I have never read the comics, so your insights from that were very helpful, along with everything else you said! (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 12:32:05 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Cinematic Joni, Perfect Joni njc now what a great thread cc...i'll add my recent experience to this although it digresses from joni to ryan adams...jeff & i were in los angeles, driving home from a more southern gig...we were hungry & tired & decided to try & find a sushi place jeff remembered...it was late saturday night or maybe even into morning...but the sidewalks were full of people & the traffic at a standstill...urgh, i just wanted to stop & eat...ryan adams' gold was on our cd player...just as the last tune started to play (goodnight hollywood blvd), i noticed where we were...on hollywood blvd...took all the stress right out of me & it was such a surreal & perfect visual that we were part of which went perfectly with the slow sleepy mood of the song...> >>Rarely am I struck by moments when while listening to Joni's music, the sheer cinematic power in the synchronization of the scene I'm viewing live and the music is overwhelming.<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 15:23:19 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: bonnie raitt njc Bonnie Raitt graduated from my high school! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 15:27:04 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long having such a huge ego that I quote myself, Vince Lavieri wrote: > It was a post that Kakki had evidently put up on March 14, > since that was a thread title de jour. (I checked my old Joni posts.) > Cyber space ate it until today, I guess. I went back to see why I had saved posts from March 14, and there it was, March 14, 2002, Bob's only and first political post,. I had saved it because it was such a historic post, and Kakki's way-laid incoming landed right next to it in my njc folder. Just to relive old times, here it is again, for those who will accuse me of making it up that Bob once posted political: SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Speaking of Bush, I about did a Danny Thomas coffee take this AM when I read in the paper that Dubya is not going to recognize Mr. Mugabe, the President of Zimbabwe, because the ELECTION WAS FLAWED!!!! > > GEORGE BUSH?? Not acknowledging an elected official because **their** election was flawed???? As Paul Simon would say..."who do you think you're fooling?" > > Luckily I didn't have a mouthful of java, because I was laughing so hard I almost coughed up a lung. > > Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:31:52 +0100 From: "William" Subject: Natalie on Joni On BBC Choice 20:00 Sunday 5th May 2002 "Dermot Recovered", Natalie Imbruglia did a Crowded House cover then afterwards the interviewer asked if she would like to cover anyone else. "Joni Mitchell, but it would be too difficult because she is so amazing." Good onya mayte! WtS ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 11:56:36 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long Eesch, I did not re-post this one and don't know how it came up again. Hope no more emerge. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 16:25:55 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Dead Can Dance njc Mark or Travis wrote: > Does anybody know anything about this group? A former co-worker who is > studying massage therapy practiced on my yesterday and she played 'The > Serpent's Egg' while I was on the table. I was very intrigued by it. A wonderful group, Australian and Atlanta, Georgia natives, I believe. I acquired their video Toward the Within with a Joni trade. Have enjoyed it immensely. Jerry np: Joni in Camden, 2000 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 13:43:15 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Middle East NJC Susan, your post really moved me. Thank you for writing what you did & channeling your anger so constructively & eloquently. >>No point to continue pointing a finger, both sides must bear the burden of responsibility and the responsibility of finding more constructive ways to live side by side.<< I like the saying that when you point a finger there are three pointing back at you. And I have to agree with those who remind us to be careful of the words we choose...it is always dangerous to speak in generalities...whether it be Arabs, French, Americans, Martians, Jews, Israelis, Hobbits...whatever. Mike in Barcelona, I am sorry to hear that you feel that your opinions (as a non-Us lister) have been considered invalid. We all have the right to criticize the policies & decisions of each others governments as well as our own and I value the opinions of those outside the US whether supportive or critical. Laurent, I am sorry to hear you had such a bad experience in the US. However, this country is a big place & as diverse as it gets. Judging the whole of this country from living in LA would be like that old story about the blind men describing the elephant by only its tail, its ears, its trunk, its legs...etc. Okay, I'll stop now with all these philosophical analogies... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 16:48:15 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Bonnie Raitt's I can't make you love me NJC <> Bonnie's sexiest song: "Love Me Like A Man", written by Chris Smither from her '72 classic 'Give It Up'. Check it out, Abby...you won't regret it. My favorite Bonnie song ever is her cover of "That Song About The Midway", incredible song, interpreted brilliantly. Although "I Feel the Same" (another Smither song) is a close second. So what do we think is Joni's sexiest song? Bob NP: Woody Mann/Suzanne Vogt, "Love Tastes Like Strawberries" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 14:03:36 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Uncle John's Mom & Dad >>>"If there is a problem, find a solution and NEVER a scapegoat - If you look for a scapegoat, you'll only end up with another problem." --"Coffee everone? Apple pie? I baked it myself. It's still warm."<<< What a wonderful & wise parents you had! Pass me some of that apple pie, please. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 16:59:45 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: apology njc Come on buddy, you are good person and you spoke your truth from a perspective of caring about the abuse of humans by other humans. And you seem to have been abused for speaking with courage and love, with compasion for all people. Colin, don't buy into anyone else's agenda. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 14:01:40 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Fred's remarks (NJC) Weird of me to answer an old thread but felt I had to comment: I wrote on 3/14: > >I frankly do not understand all the concern over the loss of reproductive > >rights. They are protected by the highest law of the land and I cannot > >conceive how any group can overturn that law. Fred wrote: > I know this isn't what you meant, but there is one group who can, and one day > just might, overturn that law: the Supreme Court. I know that's a common perception but I'm not sure that is legally accurate. I recently came across a legal analysis of the issue (which I cannot now locate) which explained and ultimately concluded that it was nearly impossible to overturn it. I wish I could find it - I think it would be helpful for all sides to consider. I have to quote from memory on this but I think it concluded that only a president, if anyone, could overturn it on the Federal level, but the States would retain their power to decide the issue. In the meantime, the Democrats are refusing to confirm the majority of Federal judicial appointments - I think in part to show their constituents that they are not going to let any conservative justices take away reproductive rights. If shown that the reproductive rights issue is moot vis a vis the Supreme Court, do you suppose the Democrats would they then allow some conservative judges to be confirmed? >Whatever their constituency, it really peeves me that the anti-reproductive > rights contingent has appropriated the concept of "pro-life" to legitimize > their agenda, with the insulting implication that those who favor > reproductive rights are "anti-life" (not to mention the equally insulting > implication that those who are against choice, even when the life of the > mother is in danger, are "pro-life.") Bullshit. The proper appellation for > the two sides of this issue are "choice" and "anti-choice." Everyone is in > favor of life. I did not mean to offend anyone by using the term pro-life. I have never been involved in any movement regarding reproductive rights and had no agenda in using the term That is just the term I usually hear generically used in the media. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 18:26:40 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Fred's remarks (NJC) Actually, here's how it works: the states, not the Federal government, regulate abortion. But as long as Roe vs Wade is the law of the land, states cannot prohibit abortion, any more than they can pass a law establishing a religion or banning a book. If an anti-abortion justice is appointed to the Court, and Roe is overturned, then the states would be free to prohibit abortion. Not all states would. New York, bless its heart, legalized abortion on its own, about a year before the Roe decision. But I am confident that many, many states would very happily step in to prohibit abortion if they were constitutionally empowered to do so. Pennsylvania would; I'm sure of it At 02:01 PM 5/5/02 -0700, you wrote: >I know that's a common perception but I'm not sure that is legally accurate. >I recently came across a legal analysis of the issue (which I cannot now >locate) which explained and ultimately concluded that it was nearly >impossible to overturn it. I wish I could find it - I think it would be >helpful for all sides to consider. I have to quote from memory on this but I >think it concluded that only a president, if anyone, could overturn it on >the Federal level, but the States would retain their power to decide the >issue. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 19:12:02 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Fred's remarks (NJC) Deb Messling wrote: > Actually, here's how it works: the states, not the Federal government, > regulate abortion. But as long as Roe vs Wade is the law of the land, > states cannot prohibit abortion, any more than they can pass a law > establishing a religion or banning a book. If an anti-abortion justice is > appointed to the Court, and Roe is overturned, then the states would be > free to prohibit abortion. Not all states would. New York, bless its > heart, legalized abortion on its own, about a year before the Roe > decision. But I am confident that many, many states would very happily > step in to prohibit abortion if they were constitutionally empowered to do > so. Pennsylvania would; I'm sure of it > Deb, excellent short summary. Michigan would also probably move to eliminate choice. The Court now stands 5-4 to uphold Roe v Wade, as has been the votes in recent choice decisions. If the court was presented with a clear chance to overturn Roe v Wade, the vote would be: Overturn: Rehnquist, Scalia, Thomas, Kennedy Uphold: Ginsburg, Breyer, Stevens, Souter, O'Connor Justice Giunsburg has had cancer. Justice Stevens cannot live forever. Justice O'Connor indicated her desire to resign under a Bush administration. A change of one vote, and Roe v Wade is gone. The anti-choice or Right to Life groups, whatewver term, control the state Republican parties in many states. (That is not a value judgment per se, but simple fact. Labor controls state Dem parties in many states. These groups turn out their members in the primaries and go to the party functions.) Bush will appoint an anti-choice candidtae to the Supreme Court if he has an opportunity. Bush has made that clear, and his primary and general election campaign was heavily dependent on the Right to Life in the various states. This will be the quid pro quo. Of course Roe v Wade can be overturned. Plessey v Ferguson was overturned (for the good, I might add). Anything can be overturned by the court at any time. It will just take one more vote. This is exactly why Right to Life worked so hard in the last election - the chance to get the next Supreme Court slot and overturn Roe v Wade. The battle lines in a 50-49-1 Senate are going to be amazing. Not every Republican Senator is anti-choice, not every Democratic senator is pro-choice. The next nomination will be crucial for choice and will make the Bork nomination fight look like a genteel tea party. (the Rev) Vince, a member of many pro-choice groups ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 18:30:59 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Fred's remarks (NJC) As would Texas, in a heartbeat. mack. But I am confident that many, many states would very happily > step in to prohibit abortion if they were constitutionally empowered to do > so. > > > > At 02:01 PM 5/5/02 -0700, you wrote: > >I know that's a common perception but I'm not sure that is legally accurate. > >I recently came across a legal analysis of the issue (which I cannot now > >locate) which explained and ultimately concluded that it was nearly > >impossible to overturn it. I wish I could find it - I think it would be > >helpful for all sides to consider. I have to quote from memory on this but I > >think it concluded that only a president, if anyone, could overturn it on > >the Federal level, but the States would retain their power to decide the > >issue. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Deb Messling -^..^- > messling@enter.net > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 22:28:18 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Subject: apologyNJC Colin, I can see that you're having a bad spell. Please stay close us, your friends, here on the list as you work it through. This feeling is real and I'm not minimizing it but it will pass. Do the work and stay close. You are certianly a worthwhile person. Please keep writing! Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 22:37:16 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: Just some loose, unfinished thoughts of a Dutch lurker (NJC) John, It's great to see you offering Dutch "Apple Pie" to everyone. Everyone, when John offers to cook for you, don't think twice, SIT DOWN!! Seriously, it's heartening to see a peacemaker at work. And now the for the Joni content. Over on the Cowboy Junkies' board, posted that Carole King's "Tapestry" and Joni Mitchell's "Court and Spark" are wonderful albums. After Anna alerted me to a post that recommended these Joni titles: >>>> Hissing of Summer Lawns (don't have it? GO GET IT NOW! Not kidding) Blue Court and Spark Hejira Wild Things Run Fast Dog Eat Dog Chalk Mark in a Rainstorm (starting to fade, but still good) Shadows and Lights (excellent live...) These are all excellent... >>>> Then I posted this: >> Joni Mitchell has surpassed the limitations of many of the genres that she has worked in: folk, pop, & jazz. I think she towers above everyone else from her generation. She has an exquisite ability with the English language. Year after year, she produced, wrote, arranged, played and sang one inventive album after another without a single sing-songy rhyme. Joni's never boring. She put a synth track and African tribal drums together on "The Tenth World" long before Paul Simon was credited with inventing World Music. While not as influential as the Beatles, the sheer quality of her work outstrips anyone I can think of. Her lyrics are in a league of two, with Bobby Dylan. Even Eminem can't touch those two. As a music fan, I love her piano best of all, especially on the album "For The Roses". While some originally misunderstood her to be folkie, she has held her own with jazz greats like Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, & Brian Blade. Musically speaking, she can play and sing rings around Dylan and always has. To breathe the same air, to experience her outsized and wide-ranging talents has been an inspiration and unflagging wonder to me. Her art has become an constant companion and a great comfort to me. Joni rocks. Joni swings. Joni rules. == Oh, yeah, I almost forgot....... I enjoyed a few of Carole King's albums too. Lamadoo (it almost sounds like a slam in context.....) >>>> - --- Then Vera posted the lyrics to "Same Situation" in their entirety. I know I'm preaching to the converted but hey, today's Sunday! Faithfully, James Albert L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 22:44:20 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: bonnie raitt njc Relayer writes: << Bonnie Raitt graduated from my high school! >> The Japanese princess (wife of the emperor-to-be) graduated from mine, but she's no Bonnie Raitt! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 22:51:54 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Fred's remarks (NJC) In a message dated 5/5/02 4:57:05 PM, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: >>Whatever their constituency, it really peeves me that the anti-reproductive >> rights contingent has appropriated the concept of "pro-life" to legitimize >> their agenda, with the insulting implication that those who favor >> reproductive rights are "anti-life" (not to mention the equally insulting >> implication that those who are against choice, even when the life of the >> mother is in danger, are "pro-life.") Bullshit. The proper appellation for >> the two sides of this issue are "choice" and "anti-choice." Everyone >>Everyone is in favor of life. > >I did not mean to offend anyone by using the term pro-life. I have never >been involved in any movement regarding reproductive rights and had no >agenda in using the term That is just the term I usually hear generically >used in the media. > >Kakki It didn't occur to me that you'd think that I was addressing you specifically on this otherwise I would have issued a disclaimer. I was only referring to those you were citing as the "pro-life" contingent, of which, accurately or not, I assumed you were not a member. Unfortunately, that is the generic term used to describe that position, and it's a bogus co-option. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 23:26:10 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Middle East NJC "Mike Pritchard" writes: >Exactly, and what irks many of us non-US listers (or at least me, I >imagine I'm not the only one who feels this way. Colin is well able to >speak for himself) is that our opinion about the actions of the US >government (in this case in support of Israel, "Sharon is a man of >peace", give me a break!!) is considered invalid. In which case I look >forward to hearing more 'legitimate' criticism of US government >activities from people like Vince and Fred, to name only two. > >mike in Barcelona. Glad to oblige. The idea that "Sharon is a man of peace" makes me puke; that Resident Bush said it doesn't surprise me, but it also makes me puke. But both sides are incredibly fucked, and both sides have legitimate concerns. The only answer is two independent states side by side with a secure border, but I'm not holding my breath. As great as the great achievements of humans are, we are very dumb animals. We represent a quantum disparity in the evolutionary chain. If one considers that the Earth is one big ecosystem, humans are the only element within that ecosystem that has the real potential to destroy the entire system (if the system doesn't destroy humans first). In other words, as beautiful as human beings can be, we are mutants. Beautiful and horrible mutants. We have too much intelligence and too little sense. When I see a Palestinian on TV, or a native Israeli, I cannot tell the difference. They look alike. They eat the same food. Their languages are very similar. They are the same goddamn people, and they want to annihilate each other! That's why, from time to time, I like to remind myself and others that: You say falafel, I say falafel You say salaam, I say shalom Falafel, falafel Salaam, Shalom Let's blow the whole thing up! - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 23:50:22 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Middle East NJC Fred writes: << You say falafel, I say falafel You say salaam, I say shalom Falafel, falafel Salaam, Shalom Let's blow the whole thing up! >> Which reminds me of this old Randy Newman classic: No one likes us I don't know why We may not be perfect But heaven knows we try When all around us Even our old friends put us down Let's drop the big one And see what happens We give them money But are they grateful No they're spiteful And they're hateful They don't respect us So let's surprise them Let's drop the big one And pulverize them Asia's too crowded And Europe's too old Africa's far too hot And Canada's too cold And South America stole our name Let's drop the big one There'll be no one left to blame us We'll save Australia Wouldn't want to hurt no kangaroo We'll build an all-American amusement park there They've got surfin' too Boom goes London And boom Paree More room for you And more room for me And every city The whole world 'round Will just be another American town Oh, how peaceful we will be We'll set everybody free You wear a Japanese kimono, baby It'll be Italian shoes for me They all hate us any how So let's drop the big one now Let's drop the big one now --Bob, wondering if this "solution" is on its way to becoming an inevitability ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 21:30:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Diltz in Chicago Yesterday afternoon, I finally got myself out and over to the Henry Diltz Exhibit. As I exited the elevator and turned, I was greeted by a poster announcing the exhibit over the famous photo of Joni sitting and playing her dulcimer. I was thrilled by this welcome. I entered the reception area with all the goodies for sale and with the gentlemen who appeared to be running the show. Unortunately Mr. Diltz was not available at the time I visited. I turned into the gallery and was greeted by what appeared to be the featured artist Paul McCartney with Linda. The photo dominating this section was the one of Paul and Linda from the cover of Life Magazine. To my right was Janis. It featured 2 photos in color and one in black and white of her in a velvet sort of tye dye suit, so to speak. I really loved the joy in Janis in these, especially one with Janis's arms spread out and her smiling. Then came the Doors, who I should mention I am a HUGE fan. All the pictures you've ever seen of the Doors, must have been taken by Diltz. Nothing much new here, just some outtakes of some very well known pictures. This being the case with most of the exhibit. James Taylor, Neil Young to the left and further on to the right my favorte photo in the entire exhibit. Mama Cass stretched out across a couch, dressed in sort of Ali Baba garb with shoes that curled up at the toes and fruit gathered all around her. This would be mine by now if I had a JOB! Finally further along came Joni. The first was of Graham Nash and Joni in B/W. Graham sort of holding Joni's face and Joni eyes drawn down, wearing a knitted tam. There was a B/W portrait of Joni, I forget the year - maybe 70ish. And a color portrait,1973, I believe. In the middle of the two portraits was my favorite of Joni. It was from 1970 and has Joni leaning out the window of "Our House." And there was the shot Joni with her dulcimer as well. The best priced photo and tempting was a shot of Bonnie Raiit, Maria Muldar and Linda Ronstadt in B/W. It appeared to be sort of a back stage discussion, possibly. As in all of these photos, they were soooo young! In the back was a section with Jackson Browne and the Eagles. Oh and of course right near Joni was the section full of CSN and some Young. And plenty of the Monkees! All of these works were so captivating. The innocent eyes and youth in all their faces. Knowing now how far they've come and /or what they've become artistically, historically - you can tell they had no idea back then what they would come to represent to us and the world. And that is what Henry has captured for all of us. I spoke briefly with one of the guys sort of running things. I mentioned of course the 60% discount for all JMDL members, he pretended not to speak english at that point! But seriously, I mention the JMDL and that many of you had visited the show in NYC. He got that "AHA" look on his face. He said that at the New York show they had sold more Joni than they ever had at one show, so far. And they had wondered why that was. SO don't miss this show when it comes to your neck of the woods! I am so glad I got out to see it. Peace, Susan Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 00:56:48 -0400 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Just some loose, unfinished thoughts of a Dutch lurker (NJC) I like your father's saying, John. You are also a very insightful person. I enjoyed reading your response. Best- Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of John van Tiel Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 5:51 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Just some loose, unfinished thoughts of a Dutch lurker (NJC) On the reactions in the 'Middle East' thread: My father used to say (emphatically - and like many fathers he repeated it about 763 times): "If there is a problem, find a solution and NEVER a scapegoat - If you look for a scapegoat, you'll only end up with another problem." -- My father is/was not a naive man. And here I see Colin, Laurent, Mack, mack, Vince, Suzan, Mike & many others getting all worked up, and some of them fortressing themselves in angry eloquence. Please continue to agree to disagree. It's funny, but when the disagreement evolves to personal antagonism - either expressed directy or between the lines - - I always feel the need to emphasize what I like about the people involved. So here goes... I know Colin as one of the worst-spelling but fascinating individuals on the list, always deeply honest (though somewhat clumsy in expressing this honesty sometimes). Someone I would love to meet one day. I have talked off-list with Laurent, shared my musical passion with him in a very rewarding manner. I judge his opinions highly, even when they are not mine at times. He has made several remarks that really made me sit down and think for a long time, even reconsider my opinion. Both Macks I only know from the list - they are friends because they are JMDL'rs (i.e. they share a love for Joni's music AND they share indefinable patterns of thoughts/feelings/expression that I recognize so strongly with everyone from the list whom I meet or with whom I correspond). My only objection to Vince is that he once almost left the list (NEVER do that again, Sir!). When I read Suzan's anger, I was mainly surprised. Are there any other subjects that make you angry or emotional, Suzan ... they bring out a very eloquent writer. Anything posted by Mike from Barcelona - although he does not know it - I always read with special attention ... he translates his first-hand knowledge of both the US and Europe into, I believe, very perceptive and to-the-point observations. Which brings me to thoughts on Europe / US: When I am in the US (which is several months a year), I seem to see so many things that, to me, look wrong, or make me feel uncomfortable: The apparent lack of social security, certainly compared to my own country; the money class system; the racial segregation; the violence and the fact that (in the city in which I stay) no one dares to walk outside after dark; the second amendment; the Christian fundamentalism (lesson one: replace "Love Thy Neighbour" by "Love Thy Neighbour As Long As He Does What You Want Him To Do"); George Double You; the food & the attitude to food; the fact that so many people have a hard time distinguishing between 'price' and 'value'; malls; the amount of people that seem to think that have made work their God (live to work? or work to live?); the flag-waving patriotism that so easily transcends into hate; the superficiality of 99% of all non-PBS TV; the widespread drug use and the mindless way in which the "War On Drugs" is fought (people who smoke pot imprisoned??); etc. AND YET... back home in the Netherlands I ALWAYS defend the US. I speak of its natural beauty; the opportunities; the wonderful sense of freedom it gives'; the many great people I met and meet, time and again; the open minds; Ben & Jerry's; the willingness to give people a chance; the general resilience; the genuine belief in democracy; maple syrup; and most of all ... the lack of allowing dismissive cynicism to become a ruling principle of life (so common in many Europeans). When I am in France, I speak the language relatively fluently, yet I feel a deep divide. I am stunned by the quality of living (food) and by the beauty of the country. I love the fact that any meal should at least take one hour (famous French saying: "I did not have luch today, I just had a takeaway sandwich."). The Dutch and the French have essentially different cultures (non-authoritarian vs authoritarian) and many French openly loathe Dutch permissiveness, yet France draws about 45% of Dutch tourism. (Observation: Hardly anyone ever says "I like the French." What one always hears "I like France.") As far as I can see, the French - like conservative Brits - generally are afraid to be snowed under by 'foreign elements' (cultures rather than people), and translate this to arrogance (in all its variations). If it eases the US mind, I don't think that the French (which French?) like the Dutch (which Dutch?) either. UK? I have always been an anglophile. Still am. Graduated in England from an old university. Love English literature, the landscape, the humour, the warmth of the people, Vaughan Williams, English football, English breakfasts & pub food (often as revolting as American fast food, but so wonderfully greasy), the love for traditions, etc. etc. etc. And yet, I see a country in which so many people have scars from bullying peer behaviour, yet who continue to believe that compromise is a sign of weakness. I see a country that is proud of its low fascist vote rate, yet displays serious xenophobia everywhere. Germany. The bad boys of Europe. The country everyone loves to hate. Lots of "latent nazis". Yet, whenever I visit the country, I always feel that I am in the most open, hospitable, warm, friendly and inviting country. With wonderful people who love to read and philosophize. Ridiculously beautiful women and far too many of them. Beautiful landscapes, great cakes, a deep concern about the well-being of everyone else. Etc. And whenever I speak to someone in Holland, England, Denmark or France about being Germany, they all agree: it's a wonderful country. And time and again I see that same shade of confusion: Wait a minute, am I being positive about Germany? Israel. Holland has always had strong feelings about supporting Israel (although, currently, Israel - or rather Sharon and his supporters - is/are depicted in the media as the 'bad force'). In the eighties, Dutch soldiers went to the Middle East as UN peacekeepers (Lebanon - Israel). I know dozens of them personally, from sergeants to full colonels. They all went as friends of the Israelis; they all came back feeling betrayed by the Israelis for some reason or other, and - without any exception - very positive about the 'Arabs' they met. They all came back confused. Not one exception among the people I met. Are these relevant observations. Not really. These are just a few thoughts that came up while reading through a bunch of digests this morning. They are probably full of the very generalizations that incited me to start writing. Still I wanted to write them down. Because this community and everyone in it is so dear to me. Whenever I see a discussion getting heated as it did over the past few days, when voices are raised and posts seem to be written in ALL CAPS - I suddenly realize how important it was what my mother so often did ... she would come into the living room and say: "Coffee everone? Apple pie? I baked it myself. It's still warm." My mother was/is no Edith Bunker. Apple pie, Colin? Laurent? Mack? mack? Mack? Vince? Suzan? Mike? Everyone? John (the Dutch Uncle) And while we're eating the apple pie, let's listen to Ladies of the Canyon today. It's such a Sunday album. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #196 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?