From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #195 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, May 5 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 195 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: was Middle East, now the French - NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: was Middle East, now the French - NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Bonnie Raitt's I can't make you love me NJC [Abbymusique@aol.com] Re: Bush (NJC) long ["Kakki" ] Just some loose, unfinished thoughts of a Dutch lurker (NJC) ["John van T] apologyNJC [colin ] Re: The Others NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Just some loose, unfinished thoughts of a Dutch lurker (NJC) ["John van T] Re: Middle East NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Today in History: May 5 [les@jmdl.com] Re: was Middle East, now the French - NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Night Ride Home [Susan Guzzi ] Re: Night Ride Home ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Middle East NJC [Susan Guzzi ] Re: was Middle East, now the French - NJC [colin ] Strife - njc [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 18:41:51 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: was Middle East, now the French - NJC >As much as I love France, I have to admit that this statement is true, >Bree. >But I would go a bit further and say that the French don't seem to like >*anyone* very much! >Arrogance has been a part of the French national character since long >before >the US even existed. But they love Jerry Lewis! Actually, I would love to visit France one day. And hell,I'm a voice person.....I love a French accent. I melt like butter..... when I hear a man or woman's.... British accent would be second. Texas third. ;-) Italian..... oh God.....Spanish... Mongolian....Huh? Bree NP:NRH - --Bob _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 02:46:44 +0100 From: colin Subject: The Others NJC I just saw The Others. i had a feeling of deja vu all the way thru it. Does anyone know if it is remake of an older film? - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 22:17:07 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: was Middle East, now the French - NJC Bree writes: << Actually, I would love to visit France one day. And hell,I'm a voice person.....I love a French accent. I melt like butter..... when I hear a man or woman's.... British accent would be second. Texas third. ;-) Italian..... oh God.....Spanish... Mongolian....Huh? >> How come no one ever mentions Boston accents when they talk about what turns them on? (Just kidding. You don't need to tell me -- the answer is self-evident!) If I had a choice of where on earth to go tomorrow, it would be Paris. Then I would travel around the rest of the country, and end my vacation in Paris just so I could have the pleasure of going there twice in one vacation. Paris is the most beautiful city in the world. The French are among the sexiest people anywhere. And they're all so vain, each person always looks his or her best. Hmm . . . most beautiful city on earth . . . sexiest people . . . no wonder they're arrogant! And I am sure the French would love you, Bree, especially with your name! (Which reminds me, didn't Charles de Gaulle say that it wasn't easy to govern a country with 365 different cheeses!) --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:15:58 EST From: Abbymusique@aol.com Subject: Re: Bonnie Raitt's I can't make you love me NJC To me, Bonnie's sexiest song is off of her last album, "Cure for Love". The music on that one is so sexy in itself, plus her singing style and the mixing overall--it's awesome. My favorite album from her is "Nick of Time" just because that's the one in which I discovered her. I was listening to a radio show, and they were playing "Have a Heart", "Thing Called Love", and then they played "Nick of Time" and I was like, "What a gorgeous song! And when I saw her win all those grammys, I thought I had to check her out. So Nick is definitely my favorite album by her, although I love all of them. I just love that duet off of "Luck of the Draw" "Good Woman, Good Man". I would simply car dance every time I heard it and sing at the top of my lungs. I saw her in concert at Red Rocks in Denver, and it was awesome, except for the weather. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:37:57 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long Thank you for the links, Randy. Everything I've read about the Patriot Act does not concern me but I'll take another look at it. I'm still of the belief that it is for going after dangerous terrorists in the U.S. who have and have been planning to harm us for years and not for some whim of some "aristocracy" to go after all Americans. > More recently, LA cops shot rubber bullets and attacked with clubs protesters at the > Democratic convention last year, and arbitrarily arrested and detained > 600 people, some just passersby. Where did you read this? I was RIGHT THERE almost the entire time and have the photographs documenting most of it. The police for almost an HOUR requested repeatedly that the crowd disperse before they went in. Most people left the area as requested. I stayed until almost the last minute. I did not see anywhere near 600 people still hanging around. The reports I heard were that only around 10-25 people were shot with rubber bullets. The last I saw them they were climbing over the protective fences to get onto Staples Center property. By the way, these people were NOT Democratic party supporters nor were they Republican protesters. They were rag-tag groups of organizations I'd never heard of before, but they were all anti-Democrat and protesting the Democrats convention. Maybe you would know better which groups they were. They seemed to be some of those enviro-radical groups and the "free Mumia" crowd. Would you rather they'd stormed the convention at Staples Center while the Gores and Clintons were in the house? I frankly do not understand all the concern over the loss of reproductive rights. They are protected by the highest law of the land and I cannot conceive how any group can overturn that law. On the other hand, I believe that people have a right to speak of their beliefs based on their religion. Just because they speak up against it does not mean they can overturn the law. It is certainly not only the Christian right who are pro-life. There are a large number of Christian left who believe the same. Their religion comes before their political party. There are also Jews and other religions who believe abortion is taking a life. They don't like their tax dollars going to fund abortions, particularly in other countries. I think they have a right to their opinion. I personally think it is an individual decision and that government should be out of it completely. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 17:10:53 +0200 From: "John van Tiel" Subject: Just some loose, unfinished thoughts of a Dutch lurker (NJC) On the reactions in the 'Middle East' thread: My father used to say (emphatically - and like many fathers he repeated it about 763 times): "If there is a problem, find a solution and NEVER a scapegoat - If you look for a scapegoat, you'll only end up with another problem." -- My father is/was not a naive man. And here I see Colin, Laurent, Mack, mack, Vince, Suzan, Mike & many others getting all worked up, and some of them fortressing themselves in angry eloquence. Please continue to agree to disagree. It's funny, but when the disagreement evolves to personal antagonism - either expressed directy or between the lines - I always feel the need to emphasize what I like about the people involved. So here goes... I know Colin as one of the worst-spelling but fascinating individuals on the list, always deeply honest (though somewhat clumsy in expressing this honesty sometimes). Someone I would love to meet one day. I have talked off-list with Laurent, shared my musical passion with him in a very rewarding manner. I judge his opinions highly, even when they are not mine at times. He has made several remarks that really made me sit down and think for a long time, even reconsider my opinion. Both Macks I only know from the list - they are friends because they are JMDL'rs (i.e. they share a love for Joni's music AND they share indefinable patterns of thoughts/feelings/expression that I recognize so strongly with everyone from the list whom I meet or with whom I correspond). My only objection to Vince is that he once almost left the list (NEVER do that again, Sir!). When I read Suzan's anger, I was mainly surprised. Are there any other subjects that make you angry or emotional, Suzan ... they bring out a very eloquent writer. Anything posted by Mike from Barcelona - although he does not know it - I always read with special attention ... he translates his first-hand knowledge of both the US and Europe into, I believe, very perceptive and to-the-point observations. Which brings me to thoughts on Europe / US: When I am in the US (which is several months a year), I seem to see so many things that, to me, look wrong, or make me feel uncomfortable: The apparent lack of social security, certainly compared to my own country; the money class system; the racial segregation; the violence and the fact that (in the city in which I stay) no one dares to walk outside after dark; the second amendment; the Christian fundamentalism (lesson one: replace "Love Thy Neighbour" by "Love Thy Neighbour As Long As He Does What You Want Him To Do"); George Double You; the food & the attitude to food; the fact that so many people have a hard time distinguishing between 'price' and 'value'; malls; the amount of people that seem to think that have made work their God (live to work? or work to live?); the flag-waving patriotism that so easily transcends into hate; the superficiality of 99% of all non-PBS TV; the widespread drug use and the mindless way in which the "War On Drugs" is fought (people who smoke pot imprisoned??); etc. AND YET... back home in the Netherlands I ALWAYS defend the US. I speak of its natural beauty; the opportunities; the wonderful sense of freedom it gives'; the many great people I met and meet, time and again; the open minds; Ben & Jerry's; the willingness to give people a chance; the general resilience; the genuine belief in democracy; maple syrup; and most of all ... the lack of allowing dismissive cynicism to become a ruling principle of life (so common in many Europeans). When I am in France, I speak the language relatively fluently, yet I feel a deep divide. I am stunned by the quality of living (food) and by the beauty of the country. I love the fact that any meal should at least take one hour (famous French saying: "I did not have luch today, I just had a takeaway sandwich."). The Dutch and the French have essentially different cultures (non-authoritarian vs authoritarian) and many French openly loathe Dutch permissiveness, yet France draws about 45% of Dutch tourism. (Observation: Hardly anyone ever says "I like the French." What one always hears "I like France.") As far as I can see, the French - like conservative Brits - generally are afraid to be snowed under by 'foreign elements' (cultures rather than people), and translate this to arrogance (in all its variations). If it eases the US mind, I don't think that the French (which French?) like the Dutch (which Dutch?) either. UK? I have always been an anglophile. Still am. Graduated in England from an old university. Love English literature, the landscape, the humour, the warmth of the people, Vaughan Williams, English football, English breakfasts & pub food (often as revolting as American fast food, but so wonderfully greasy), the love for traditions, etc. etc. etc. And yet, I see a country in which so many people have scars from bullying peer behaviour, yet who continue to believe that compromise is a sign of weakness. I see a country that is proud of its low fascist vote rate, yet displays serious xenophobia everywhere. Germany. The bad boys of Europe. The country everyone loves to hate. Lots of "latent nazis". Yet, whenever I visit the country, I always feel that I am in the most open, hospitable, warm, friendly and inviting country. With wonderful people who love to read and philosophize. Ridiculously beautiful women and far too many of them. Beautiful landscapes, great cakes, a deep concern about the well-being of everyone else. Etc. And whenever I speak to someone in Holland, England, Denmark or France about being Germany, they all agree: it's a wonderful country. And time and again I see that same shade of confusion: Wait a minute, am I being positive about Germany? Israel. Holland has always had strong feelings about supporting Israel (although, currently, Israel - or rather Sharon and his supporters - is/are depicted in the media as the 'bad force'). In the eighties, Dutch soldiers went to the Middle East as UN peacekeepers (Lebanon - Israel). I know dozens of them personally, from sergeants to full colonels. They all went as friend s of the Israelis; they all came back feeling betrayed by the Israelis for some reason or other, and - without any exception - very positive about the 'Arabs' they met. They all came back confused. Not one exception among the people I met. Are these relevant observations. Not really. These are just a few thoughts that came up while reading through a bunch of digests this morning. They are probably full of the very generalizations that incited me to start writing. Still I wanted to write them down. Because this community and everyone in it is so dear to me. Whenever I see a discussion getting heated as it did over the past few days, when voices are raised and posts seem to be written in ALL CAPS - I suddenly realize how important it was what my mother so often did ... she would come into the living room and say: "Coffee everone? Apple pie? I baked it myself. It's still warm." My mother was/is no Edith Bunker. Apple pie, Colin? Laurent? Mack? mack? Mack? Vince? Suzan? Mike? Everyone? John (the Dutch Uncle) And while we're eating the apple pie, let's listen to Ladies of the Canyon today. It's such a Sunday album. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 14:22:56 +0100 From: colin Subject: apologyNJC i have been a very stupid fool. i really had no idea that sharing my thoughts and feelings would alienate so many people. i have never intended to hurt anyone. i don't even know if that is true. it seems all the stuff i learned which i thought was helping me live my life is crap. all the money i ahve spent on therapy trying to convince myself I am not a bad person when it is very apparent that i am. I owe particular apology to a woman who has been saying this all along. just understand i reacted like I did because it is a hard think to accept. no one like to think they are bad. but you are quite right why would I have had the punishments i have had if not? anyway if those who bring you into this wordl know you are bad, well it is obvious some people are just made bad and no amount of nyhting will change it. it is quite relief not have to pretend . from experience i know this will not be understood. i can't spend my time wrrying about that. think what you will i don't know what else to say id on't expect anyonewill think my apology is meant how ould cyou trust me/ ? nothing anyone wrote made me think this. more what wasn't written. (not that i needed anyone to make me think it i have always thought it just fought it) wahteever truth you have about me pleae just be happy tiewht that. i don't ned to knownit i ahve my own truth and that is self evdient. - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 08:30:18 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: The Others NJC In a message dated 5/4/02 9:44:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, colin@tantra-apso.com writes: > I just saw The Others. i had a feeling of deja vu all the way thru it. > Colin, I could swear you've posted this before ;~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 11:50:53 +0200 From: "John van Tiel" Subject: Just some loose, unfinished thoughts of a Dutch lurker (NJC) On the reactions in the 'Middle East' thread: My father used to say (emphatically - and like many fathers he repeated it about 763 times): "If there is a problem, find a solution and NEVER a scapegoat - If you look for a scapegoat, you'll only end up with another problem." -- My father is/was not a naive man. And here I see Colin, Laurent, Mack, mack, Vince, Suzan, Mike & many others getting all worked up, and some of them fortressing themselves in angry eloquence. Please continue to agree to disagree. It's funny, but when the disagreement evolves to personal antagonism - either expressed directy or between the lines - - I always feel the need to emphasize what I like about the people involved. So here goes... I know Colin as one of the worst-spelling but fascinating individuals on the list, always deeply honest (though somewhat clumsy in expressing this honesty sometimes). Someone I would love to meet one day. I have talked off-list with Laurent, shared my musical passion with him in a very rewarding manner. I judge his opinions highly, even when they are not mine at times. He has made several remarks that really made me sit down and think for a long time, even reconsider my opinion. Both Macks I only know from the list - they are friends because they are JMDL'rs (i.e. they share a love for Joni's music AND they share indefinable patterns of thoughts/feelings/expression that I recognize so strongly with everyone from the list whom I meet or with whom I correspond). My only objection to Vince is that he once almost left the list (NEVER do that again, Sir!). When I read Suzan's anger, I was mainly surprised. Are there any other subjects that make you angry or emotional, Suzan ... they bring out a very eloquent writer. Anything posted by Mike from Barcelona - although he does not know it - I always read with special attention ... he translates his first-hand knowledge of both the US and Europe into, I believe, very perceptive and to-the-point observations. Which brings me to thoughts on Europe / US: When I am in the US (which is several months a year), I seem to see so many things that, to me, look wrong, or make me feel uncomfortable: The apparent lack of social security, certainly compared to my own country; the money class system; the racial segregation; the violence and the fact that (in the city in which I stay) no one dares to walk outside after dark; the second amendment; the Christian fundamentalism (lesson one: replace "Love Thy Neighbour" by "Love Thy Neighbour As Long As He Does What You Want Him To Do"); George Double You; the food & the attitude to food; the fact that so many people have a hard time distinguishing between 'price' and 'value'; malls; the amount of people that seem to think that have made work their God (live to work? or work to live?); the flag-waving patriotism that so easily transcends into hate; the superficiality of 99% of all non-PBS TV; the widespread drug use and the mindless way in which the "War On Drugs" is fought (people who smoke pot imprisoned??); etc. AND YET... back home in the Netherlands I ALWAYS defend the US. I speak of its natural beauty; the opportunities; the wonderful sense of freedom it gives'; the many great people I met and meet, time and again; the open minds; Ben & Jerry's; the willingness to give people a chance; the general resilience; the genuine belief in democracy; maple syrup; and most of all ... the lack of allowing dismissive cynicism to become a ruling principle of life (so common in many Europeans). When I am in France, I speak the language relatively fluently, yet I feel a deep divide. I am stunned by the quality of living (food) and by the beauty of the country. I love the fact that any meal should at least take one hour (famous French saying: "I did not have luch today, I just had a takeaway sandwich."). The Dutch and the French have essentially different cultures (non-authoritarian vs authoritarian) and many French openly loathe Dutch permissiveness, yet France draws about 45% of Dutch tourism. (Observation: Hardly anyone ever says "I like the French." What one always hears "I like France.") As far as I can see, the French - like conservative Brits - generally are afraid to be snowed under by 'foreign elements' (cultures rather than people), and translate this to arrogance (in all its variations). If it eases the US mind, I don't think that the French (which French?) like the Dutch (which Dutch?) either. UK? I have always been an anglophile. Still am. Graduated in England from an old university. Love English literature, the landscape, the humour, the warmth of the people, Vaughan Williams, English football, English breakfasts & pub food (often as revolting as American fast food, but so wonderfully greasy), the love for traditions, etc. etc. etc. And yet, I see a country in which so many people have scars from bullying peer behaviour, yet who continue to believe that compromise is a sign of weakness. I see a country that is proud of its low fascist vote rate, yet displays serious xenophobia everywhere. Germany. The bad boys of Europe. The country everyone loves to hate. Lots of "latent nazis". Yet, whenever I visit the country, I always feel that I am in the most open, hospitable, warm, friendly and inviting country. With wonderful people who love to read and philosophize. Ridiculously beautiful women and far too many of them. Beautiful landscapes, great cakes, a deep concern about the well-being of everyone else. Etc. And whenever I speak to someone in Holland, England, Denmark or France about being Germany, they all agree: it's a wonderful country. And time and again I see that same shade of confusion: Wait a minute, am I being positive about Germany? Israel. Holland has always had strong feelings about supporting Israel (although, currently, Israel - or rather Sharon and his supporters - is/are depicted in the media as the 'bad force'). In the eighties, Dutch soldiers went to the Middle East as UN peacekeepers (Lebanon - Israel). I know dozens of them personally, from sergeants to full colonels. They all went as friends of the Israelis; they all came back feeling betrayed by the Israelis for some reason or other, and - without any exception - very positive about the 'Arabs' they met. They all came back confused. Not one exception among the people I met. Are these relevant observations. Not really. These are just a few thoughts that came up while reading through a bunch of digests this morning. They are probably full of the very generalizations that incited me to start writing. Still I wanted to write them down. Because this community and everyone in it is so dear to me. Whenever I see a discussion getting heated as it did over the past few days, when voices are raised and posts seem to be written in ALL CAPS - I suddenly realize how important it was what my mother so often did ... she would come into the living room and say: "Coffee everone? Apple pie? I baked it myself. It's still warm." My mother was/is no Edith Bunker. Apple pie, Colin? Laurent? Mack? mack? Mack? Vince? Suzan? Mike? Everyone? John (the Dutch Uncle) And while we're eating the apple pie, let's listen to Ladies of the Canyon today. It's such a Sunday album. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 03:27:54 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Middle East NJC Mack posted, "for I have no illusions as to the motives of the Arabs. I consider them evil and as politically incorrect as that might be, it is the conclusion that I have come to and I make no apologies for it." If we, for the sake of clarity, switch the pronoun for the noun directly antecedent in the second line, we get "...Arabs. I consider Arabs evil..." That is what Mack wrote, and yet he says he did not blanket call Arabs evil and I am confused, especially in his denying that he wrote what he wrote and said he had no apologies for what he wrote, but now he denies writing what he wrote. Mack, if you didn't mean to call all Arabs evil, it is not clear at all. Could you rephrase your original then, please, so that we might understand more accurately to what you meant? If you meant what was posted, that Arabs are equal, then Colin and Mike certainly may state that your comment is racist, because an entire group of people is being called evil. Please claify you original words, so that Colin and Mike and all of us more properly might understand what you mean and reply as/if needed; or, stand by what you wrote as you said that you would. Whatever. But don't jump on Colin and Mike for reacting to what was posted. All of us have been victimised at one time or another by not writing clearly what we have meant, part of the curse of cyber communication. Many of us have gone back and rephrased prior posts as needed for clarity, and if needed, please do so for the sake of community and dialogue in the JMDL. If the statement is not to be rephrased, than I can only concur with Colin's and Mike's words. Of course you don't have to do anything at all, and we read your words and gather our insights and learning from them as they stand. (the Rev Vince) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 03:07:58 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: May 5 On May 5 in history: 1979: Today, Joni, Jane Fonda, Jackson Browne, Graham Nash, John Hall, Dan Fogelberg, John Sebastian and others appear in Washington DC at a "No-Nukes" rally. A few days later, the LA Times published a review of the event, saying "At an impromptu press conference following the afternoon program of music and speeches on the Capitol steps, four of the musiciansJackson Browne, Joni Mitchell, Graham Nash and John Hallfielded questions about their involvement in the antinuclear movement. Deftly, but politely, they turned each question into an opportunity to respond with facts, figures and observations about the nuclear issue. Self-aggrandizement was not on the agenda." More info: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/790508lat.cfm http://www.jonimitchell.com/NoNukes79.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 23:27:59 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: was Middle East, now the French - NJC >How come no one ever mentions Boston accents when they talk about what >turns >them on? (Just kidding. You don't need to tell me -- the answer is >self-evident!) I bet you've turned many a person on with that voice of yours! >If I had a choice of where on earth to go tomorrow, it would be Paris. Then >I >would travel around the rest of the country, and end my vacation in Paris >just so I could have the pleasure of going there twice in one vacation. WOW!! It must be really fabulous! Actually,I was all set to go several years ago....had saved my pennies. And believe it or not, I was going to stay in a convent outside of Paris and then on to Rome where I was going to stay in a convent too. I had read an article on a plane about staying in Paris and Rome more cheaply,affordable. These convents close to all the action offer a bed and a shared bath for fractions less than it would cost to stay in a fine hotel. The only drawback would have been you had to be in by 10PM. A CURFEW!! SHIT that is when I'm just getting started!! But forty-five a night, sure beat 350 a night. Because of some events that happened in my life..I never made the trip. But will someday. >Paris is the most beautiful city in the world. The French are among the >sexiest people anywhere. And they're all so vain, each person always looks >his or her best. Hmm . . . most beautiful city on earth . . . sexiest >people >. . . no wonder they're arrogant! Yeah....no doubt, they are sexy. >(Which reminds me, didn't Charles de Gaulle say that it wasn't easy to >govern >a country with 365 different cheeses!) LOL!! I want to go for as much for the food as I do the night life.(now I know I'm gettin old) I want some real French cuisine. > --Bob _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 23:23:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Night Ride Home Hi Bree & Bob, Yes thanks Bob for saving me as well, from the politics of the day! I had some additional comments to add from my previous post on the Night Ride Home discussion. - --- Bree Mcdonough wrote: > Thanks Bob....for reminding me why I am here. > Night Ride Home is the first Joni I bought after being away from her for > awhile,quite a long while....but really never that far away from my heart. > Title track: The simplicity, there in lies it's beauty. I can be so > blue......and put this track on,open the moonroof....and just > escape....forget for a little while anyway. I love those crickets sounds at > the end. (everything is alright in the world.....the crickets affirm this > :-) ) This title cut makes the whole album. It evokes such a feeling in me and a flood of memories. I could smell the night air and see the stars when I listen to this one. It's a great car song for a long car trip. > Passion play: A truly brilliant song!! In my top five of all time Joni > songs. Musically,lyrically.......her voice!! I had a get-together at my > house last summer,just family. I made copies of the lyrics and then I > played it. It was SO interesting and fun to get the various opinions and > views from everybody. I remember one interpretation was quite different;my > niece's, then fianci, thinks it was about a wedding or partly about a > wedding. When he told me this...my reaction was...HUH? Splain yourself > boy!! I guess at the time he and my niece were planning their > wedding.....so the multitudes...misery.....brought his upcoming wedding to > mind. Just a great song and another one that makes this album so special. It does seem to be about some gathering over two lovers. An engagement party, wedding, shower, or someone who is marrying out of her class, moving on up, and the meeting of the families. Anyone else have any insight or opinion? I'd love to hear some thoughts on what this is about. > Ray's Dad's Cadillac: This song has really grown on me. I think it's quite > clever. It is fun.....but you really can't dance to it nor sing along very > well to it either.(at least I can't) Didn't this song come about after > seeing a junkyard while her plane was preparing for a landing? I used to really not like this song at all, but it has grown a bit on me as well. > Two Grey Rooms: Oh what can I say!! What a gem!! What an absolute treat!! > With this song you get everything...all of Joni....much of life. OMG.. > she even plays the piano !! The only fault I would have is that is too > short. Short... but ever so sweet. I agree as most Joniphiles do this is one of her greatest not only of the last 20 years but in all of her body of work. Enjoying this analysis of NRH> Peace, Susan Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 22:46:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Night Ride Home Hi Bob, Seems a few on list are listening to this album today. - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > I hadn't heard NRH in awhile, and spun it from start to finish yesterday. > Really an excellent record. Come In From The Cold should have been edited, > I'm always ready for it to be over before it is. I don't care for Nothing Can > Be Done much, but that's just me I suppose. After reading your post this morning, I did the same thing Bob. I put on the album and pulled out the sleeve for the words. I totally agree about "Come in From the Cold." It seems so obvious, I wonder how or why she felt the need to go on and on. Nothing Can Be Done, is just okay with me. Bob wrote; Two Grey Rooms is of course one > of her masterpieces because like her best work, we can easily insert ourselves into the story. Yes, even if we change that story, we find a way to fit ourselves in and embellish from there. For some reason this song also reminds me of a short story, which as per usual I can't remember the exact title, "To Room 19?" I can't remember the author either, but I bet someone here will know. Dare I say Katherine Porter? As I listen to it it just popped into my head, couldn't help it. > And has she ever written a "meaner" lyric than: > > "You'd eat your young alive, > For A Jaguar in the drive" > (From "The Windfall(Everything For Nothing)) > > I don't mean that as a negative statement - it's a brilliant lyric because of > its impact. It is a great line Bob, I totally understand. It's lines like this that can somehow make the whole song stronger as well. Bob Wrote: > Cherokee Louise almost always moves me to tears with its story of childhood > betrayal, and the fact that the friend knows where to find her (under the > bridge) but now she's there because she's hiding in fear & shame as opposed > to the fun mischievious adventure of youth. So bittersweet... > Yes - I really get the visuals here and that tugs at my heart strings even more so. I really love "The Only Joy In Town." I think it's got shades of old Joni melodically speaking and it's a well produced song, mostly cause it's not over produced, seems to me. I'm sure this Joni treasure will be featured prominently on my stereo the next week or two. Peace, Susan Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 22:48:58 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Night Ride Home ><that way, I suggest Night Ride Home.>> >I hadn't heard NRH in awhile, and spun it from start to finish yesterday. >Really an excellent record. Come In From The Cold should have been edited, >I'm always ready for it to be over before it is. I don't care for Nothing >Can >Be Done much, but that's just me I suppose. Two Grey Rooms is of course one >of her masterpieces because like her best work, we can easily insert >ourselves into the story. >Cherokee Louise almost always moves me to tears with its story of childhood >betrayal, and the fact that the friend knows where to find her (under the >bridge) but now she's there because she's hiding in fear & shame as opposed >to the fun mischievious adventure of youth. So bittersweet... Thanks Bob....for reminding me why I am here. (I love politics and I guess I am what you would call a political junkie...not quite as bad as I use to be though. But I'm realizing discussing politics is better face to face...in front of a warm,crackling, fireplace....a little wine perhaps....) Night Ride Home is the first Joni I bought after being away from her for awhile,quite a long while....but really never that far away from my heart. It was about this time.. that I fell in love for the first time in my life.....and well...NRH does evoke so much from me. Title track: The simplicity, there in lies it's beauty. I can be so blue......and put this track on,open the moonroof....and just escape....forget for a little while anyway. I love those crickets sounds at the end. (everything is alright in the world.....the crickets affirm this :-) ) Passion play: A truly brilliant song!! In my top five of all time Joni songs. Musically,lyrically.......her voice!! I had a get-together at my house last summer,just family. I made copies of the lyrics and then I played it. It was SO interesting and fun to get the various opinions and views from everybody. I remember one interpretation was quite different;my niece's, then fianci, thinks it was about a wedding or partly about a wedding. When he told me this...my reaction was...HUH? Splain yourself boy!! I guess at the time he and my niece were planning their wedding.....so the multitudes...misery.....brought his upcoming wedding to mind. Cherokee Louise:Bittersweet is right, Bob! Joni talked about her friend and I can't remember now what her childhood friends real name is. But she said she has lost contact with her for many years now. This kind of surprised me considering Joni's stardom. It would be very easy...I would think.. for *Louise* to get in contact with her. Yeah...the innocence of childhood....secret hiding places....grabbing whatever your mother had in the fridge. Children have such wonderful imaginations,it really doesn't take a lot of fancy toys or gizmos. The innocence is so fleeting though. The carefreeness and sweetness doesn't last very long....... She runs home to her foster dad He opens up a zipper And he yanks her to her knees Oh please be here----------PLEASE My friend Poor Cherokee Louise The Windfall: .....you think I should buy you a car? Why? Because Elvis did?!! Oh....come on!! I love her shitty little laugh at the beginning of this. This song just cracks me up....the way she sings it... with such a smirk. I love the way the music fits the lyrics so perfectly.....almost like a march.....a mantra at times. It's kinda like,you fuck, here's the list....THIS IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.....YOU WANT TO KNOW... HERE IT IS... Slouching Towards Bethlehem: I love her lone guitar at the beginning...and the build up to a full crescendo. And of course, there is much,much food for thought. It is a very hopeful song to me....that one day.. all the madness will stop.....(is this woman a musical genius or what!!) Come In From the Cold: Nice sentiment. But the song goes on a little too long. I think it would have hit the mark,IF... she could have found a way to shorten it a bit. It leaves me,yeah...you guessed it...a little cold. Ray's Dad's Cadillac: This song has really grown on me. I think it's quite clever. It is fun.....but you really can't dance to it nor sing along very well to it either.(at least I can't) Didn't this song come about after seeing a junkyard while her plane was preparing for a landing? Two Grey Rooms: Oh what can I say!! What a gem!! What an absolute treat!! With this song you get everything...all of Joni....much of life. OMG.. she even plays the piano !! The only fault I would have is that is too short. Short... but ever so sweet. BUT....life is so very short. (Thirty years have passed already) IF...I were to ever meet HER....and could find it in me to get the words out.....and stand because my legs I know would be like rubber..I would thank her of course for all her music.....but I would make a special point of thanking her for TGR. I believe I read that this song came about after she read an article or a short story about two ex-lovers....two gay men. Well,I've taken up enough space. And yeah....I guess you could say I like NRH,TOO. :-) Bree _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 22:04:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Middle East NJC WoW! Rough day here, but let me try to find some common ground and clarify some points I am still at odds with. In order to do this I am really not trying to incite anymore animosity. The reason I got nvolved and took a stand was for the tone and and all knowing attitude of one who temporarily infuriated me. But just like in any dispute, let our cooler calmer heads prevail. James Phillips wrote: What the Paletinians have done, with their suicide bombings etc is not the answer to their problems, pure and simple. ABSOLUTELY James. I think this is a point we can all agree on. This is a terrorist action and one of deperation, poorly misguided. This is where Palestine, clearly lacks leadership, and of the more moderate flavor. I know there are officials who are more moderate, but they have not been able to or have shyed away from coming to the forefront and leading. James wrote: ... my Grandma used to say there are two sides to every coin. And this was my original point as well. We can't discount the Palestinians right to exist without the opression they have faced, even prior to the suicide bombings. There must be a solution of inclusion rather than oppression and exclusion. Mack wrote: (and I am a bit confused, guess I never realized there were two of you, honestly). I apologize to most for getting involved in this latest bit of hogwash. I sincerely hope that you will always post your opinions. As with the different factions in the Middle East, we must keep a dialogue open. I DO learn a lot from all here and do try to understand each person's perspective. While I may disagree on some points, I do not think we were all that far apart. My fury came from one person, who rubbed me wrong. We may all have that one person here, but it does not mean we shold stop talking. I cam down as fast as I blow up, I really hate be confrontational, especially in a mean spirited way. Look out below my friend I am about to disagree with you again! ;-) Mack wrote: Most of the fault lies with the Arabs, you are right they don't want peace, they want Israel exterminated. While this may be true of certain factions, I think this blanket statement is what agitates this situation. You may not have meant "all" but it sounds like it. But maybe you did and that is your opinion. But that does then ring of bigotry. My sister-in-law and my beautiful niece and nephew are of Palestinian/Christian descent. Yes there are Christian Arabs. So saying all, when my sister-in-law, who is pretty conservative, hasn't a racist bone in her body is really unfair. Bree wrote: That is too simplistic and redneck to say all Arabs are evil. And I have not heard or seen written on this list, that anyone hates all Aabs or Palestinians for that matter. I think that by putting all the blame on one side and declaring all things that Israel has done correct, one poster here did insinuate as much. That is what set me off. It definitely struck a nerve with that tone. He did not try to dismeninate in any way that he was not talking about "all Arabs", and I do believe he was. But for the most part, I don't think anyone else has, or they took pains to be sure they were not misinterpreted. As some have taken issue with my friend Colin here, I found Laurent's post offensive and narrow-minded. It happens anytime someone is not 100% pro-Israel to the very sam degree he is. And I am pro-Israel. But it does not mean they are all knowing and perfect. Someone else suggested that the US listers take to questioning or disagreeing with the US government as well. Please know that I do. And I believe it is patriotic to do so. I have said as much many times here. But please let me save George Bush for another feast! Rosalie wrote: If the Palestinians could wipe out Israel in a day they would do so and call it a job well done. I pray this is not true, but I KNOW it is not true of ALL Palestinians or ALL Arabs. It may very well be true to "some extent" of a majority. Don't you think that Israel wishes the Palestinians would go away, or the Arabs. Too often in these times all over the world, too many people think like this, it is with great sorrow that I say as a whole the world has become sooo desensitized. Death too easy a choice, in our cities, our schools ... very sad. Colin wrote: Children on both sides of this conflict are being abused daily. They are being fed the hatred of the people bringing them up. This will result in adults who hate. And if you don't believe this just look at racism in America. Little by ittle we are getting there, but it takes a lot of rolling over and over again to shake out the hate and to educate. But even here it all starts on the homefront. I know first hand - I am a survivor and have recovered from my upbringing. As I stand back and look at all of these posts, I don't see one post that does not stand in support of Israel, nor in support of suicide bombings, I believe we are all closer to agreement than farther apart. Hopefully, someday soon the same will be true of the powers that be in the Midde East conflict. Good Night All. Peace, Susan NP: Night Ride Home Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 03:22:41 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: was Middle East, now the French - NJC > How come no one ever mentions Boston accents when they talk about what turns > them on? well I am sure it won't thrill you to know that i happen to like it very much, especially posh boston. > (Just kidding. You don't need to tell me -- the answer is > self-evident!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 12:38:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Strife - njc I haven't been paying a great deal of attention to what's happening on the list lately. I've been feeling rather down and have been very busy in any case. There has been a strike by one of the bargaining units in my workplace, a strike that lasted 51 days. They have now reached a tentative agreement and are voting on ratification today. It is expected they will accept the new deal and will begin returning to work tomorrow. I'm in management and, of course, not allowed to strike (thank God). All of my staff are members of this particular bargaining unit, as a result of which, they were officially on strike. Nevertheless a number of them chose to come to work. They were also *able* to come to work because in my building there was limited picketing. The building in which I work is private-sector-owned, but about 65% of the space is occupied by provincial gov't offices. In many locations, where the building is completely government offices, no on was able to get into work - at least, no one in that particular bargaining unit, which represents the majority of provincial gov't workers in this province. As a manager, I am supposed to be neutral and to support my staff regardless of whether they chose to be on strike and picket, be on strike and stay home, or come to work as usual. I have a great deal of difficulty understanding the union's firm position on "scabs" and its eagerness to punish those who chose to exercise their right to come to work, for whatever reason. In the last seven weeks, I have seen and heard things that were very disturbing. Stories of people receiving personal threats at the workplace or at home. Stories from managers I know who were redeployed during the strike to psychiatric hospitals and correctional facilities. Stories of inmates in prisons being locked down for seven weeks, without being allowed any time outdoors for exercise; of their not receiving their breakfast until 2 in the afternoon; of their being denied medications - including anti-psychotic drugs - until they were in a dangerous state. Of name-calling, spitting, and other horrible behaviours. I was on standby over the Easter weekend, to be redeployed to a psychiatric facility, should the need arise, for an undetermined period of time, probably to assist in meal preparation, cleaning and so on. As it turned out, I didn't need to go, but others I know did get sent out to the psych hospitals and the jails. Managers in the jails were virtually prisoners themselves, in these facilities 24/7 for the duration of the strike, not even allowed to go outside for a breath of fresh air. On on occasion, I had a union member literally in my face screaming at me about an issue she believed management was denying union members as their right. This was disturbing enough, but nothing compared to what so many others - on both sides - went through. These are people that work together and are going to be coming back into their workplaces - correctional officers, psychiatric nurses, cleaning staff, office staff. These are people who have more in common than most, and this was, when it comes right down to it, war. If a bunch of people who are supposed to work together and to share so much in common are so easily split into factions, I am not terribly surprised that people who share less in common, are so eager to hate one another. We like to think that we are rational and logical. We are not. Someone butts into line ahead of you at the bank or the store; someone cuts you off in traffic; some tough kid picks on your kid at school, and what happens? You get mad (probably). You want to fight back. Sometimes you do. Sometimes you can shake it off. Sometimes you swallow it, but it comes back to you later in another form. I like my staff and I'll be glad to see them all back tomorrow. I want to hug each and every one of them. I'm bringing them bagels and croissant and maybe some of Sharon's-recipe lemon bread tomorrow and I'm going to make coffee for them. I don't get it and maybe I never will. I wish people would just get along, but maybe that's not possible. There are times I think I should just slit my throat and get it over with. But not today. Everyone has an opinion about something but it's just an opinion. I don't think there is any one "right" way of thinking or acting, but there seems to be a multitude of wrong ways. Life is a minefield. Stepping stones? or sinking sand? Stepping stones on sinking sand? (It all comes down to Joni, and evidently, she kicked the maid; and Jesus lost it in the temple.) ______________________________________________________________________ Games, Movies, Music & Sports! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #195 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?