From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #194 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, May 4 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 194 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in History: May 4 [les@jmdl.com] Today's Articles: May 4 [les@jmdl.com] Re: Middle East NJC [Susan Guzzi ] Re: none [Susan Guzzi ] Re: none [Susan Guzzi ] Cinematic Joni, Perfect Joni ["c Karma" ] May 4th NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Middle East NJC ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: Middle East NJC [colin ] Re: All I Want, original lyrics [Sylphidiam@aol.com] Night Ride Home [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: All I Want, original lyrics [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Covers # 29, REAL GOOD FOR FREE [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Middle East NJC ["Dolphie Bush" ] cairn njc ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: the Prince collaboration? ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Recommended CD's for Susan [Lori in MD ] Re: Recommended CD's for Susan [colin ] NJC- Israel Palestian thread and commentary ["James Phillips" ] more Spider-man NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Middle East NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Correction NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Cinematic Joni, Perfect Joni ["Kakki" ] Re: Middle East NJC ["Mike Pritchard" ] Re: Middle East (njc) ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Middle East NJC [colin ] Re: was Middle East, now the French - NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: was Middle East, now the French - NJC [colin ] Re: Middle East NJC ["Dolphie Bush" ] sin/sinner NJC [colin ] Arthur Lee review (njc) ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 03:04:25 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: May 4 On May 4 in history: 1983: Joni performs in Frankfurt, Germany ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 03:04:25 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Articles: May 4 On May 4 the following item was published: 1999: "Self-promotion taints Joni Mitchell video" - Orange County Register (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/990504ocr.cfm - -------- Can you type? http://www.jmdl.com/typing/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 01:13:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Middle East NJC I have been holding my tongue on these matters,because I do not want to incite nor feed the fires of hate here. However, I must speak plainly and simply about the Middle East, beforeI explode. No it is not a simple issue but there are more simple solutions ad alternatives. I have been unquestioningly a supporter of Israel and still am, so damn anyone who dare misinterpret this for their own pompous narrow-minded views. I have had enough from both sides these past few months. The Middle East inability to deal with eachother is causing violence world wide. During the Clinton administration, one year ago September 2000, Palestine and Israel were the closest they have ever been to a solution. Since Sharon has come to power the entire process has taken leaps backwards! As in most cases I do not blame my Israeli brothers and sisters, I blame their leader. Sharon has done nothing but incite trouble since he came to power. He is a thug! Now I do not crown Arafat king of peace either. What I am adressing here is equal responsibility and blame, without fear of repercussion. And we here in the US stand as always behind Israel. I pity the fool who dare, because I disagee with Sharon, label me anti semetic. I do not like my president, should I leave my country or be labeld anti America. As a woman of peace, I must call out those who do not live up to a basic human standard. I do aree with Vince and Colin on a couple of things, HATE is HATE! It's not okay to kill or to hate because they wear a label, one that the hater put there. Most Palestinians are not suicide bombers,most Israeli children would gladly befriend Palestinian children. To label all Arabs as evil, is disgusting and simplistic. To cut our support to Israel would be terrible. I do believe that the Palestinians deserve a homeland, but certainly not at the cost of selling out Israel. All the facts paraded here sicken me! It gets to be a pettty war of words. Laurent you think America is full of propoganda?! Who fed you yours? We know how history can be written and rewritten, interpreted and reinterpreted. Hell isn't it France right now that has a presidential candidate who doesn't believe the holocaust really happened, hhmm must be true if they're saying it in France! Isn't he anti-Jewish? Really, Laurent I don't discount your facts. Rather, I learn a bit more about history and it's interpretations from you and Vince. No fact in this mess is virgin pure. In fact they all have a ring of truth, but I believe in putting them in proper context. More importantly seeing how we can take these facts and find a path out of this maze of hate and perhaps create a solution that both sides can learn to live with rather than to die for. No point to continue pointing a finger, both sides must bear the burden of responsibility and the responsibility of finding more constructive ways to live side by side. One step at a time, one year at a time, one decade at a time. I have no answer, no solution. But I am reminded of many comments made here after 9/11. I believe it was Kate Bennett, who pleaded for peaceful resolution, and made the obvious comment that violence has not ever solved anything, if it did we'd not have to go to war again and again over the same things. I am paraphrasing from a poor memory, and she was not speaking to this particular issue, so please don't take up arms against Kate. But as long as we can fight and kill so many for so long, why can't we just sit at the table and go over and over again the issues at hand. It's peaceful and cheaper. The fighting doesn't stop the hate and it is putting us all in peril. Laurent, frankly I find the way you speak down to us and as the all knowing one, quite condescending. I stand with Israel, but I am not blind to their faults. And I will not stand by and watch them massacre innocent people, just as I will not stand for any genocide. "Never Forget" is a message for all humans. I belong to the human race First! Frankly, I am not a flag waver, most here know that. But I am insulted by your flimsy analysis of the US. It's true that the rich only get richer and the middle class is shrinking. Funny how that only happens in America! I remember when friends have returned from France, their stories about how wonderful the rich are, standing on street corners passing out their money.;-) I hope you find your perfect world, I only hope there is love and respect in it as well. I do hope your daughter has received the medical help she requires and that she is doing well. But I would say monthly here, we inevitably have people seeking medical help. Poor children from other countries are flown here by common people or corporations to receive progressive, expensive medical procedures. Goodness and humanity know no boundaries. Good luck with your elections in Almighty France! Nice choices. I'm sure the French people had nothing to do with that! See how easy it is to throw a stone. My apologies to all here for the bandwidth and my anger, I am just tired of people almost purposefully misinterpreting what people say and mean on this issue. That's why the Middle East is where it is right now. More than ever ... Peace, Susan P. S. Running for cover! Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 01:29:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: none Hello and Welcome to Another Susan, Glad you joined us and started this thread. I too recommend my favorite, "Blue" as your next purchase. Although I love For the Roses & Ladies of the Canyon, and well all of them especially from Hejira on back to the beginning, Song to A Seagull. After Hejira, should you choose to go that way, I suggest Night Ride Home. I think Court & Spark was kind of a crescendo in a series of albums. Hejira may have been another. But you'll always remember your first with a special affection. I would bet several years from now, C&S will still be your fave. I almost wish I could go back to the begining and start all over again, what a great trip it's been. BUt really, I'm not obsessed! See ya around these parts often and soon, I hope. Peace, Susan (too) Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 01:29:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: none Hello and Welcome to Another Susan, Glad you joined us and started this thread. I too recommend my favorite, "Blue" as your next purchase. Although I love For the Roses & Ladies of the Canyon, and well all of them especially from Hejira on back to the beginning, Song to A Seagull. After Hejira, should you choose to go that way, I suggest Night Ride Home. I think Court & Spark was kind of a crescendo in a series of albums. Hejira may have been another. But you'll always remember your first with a special affection. I would bet several years from now, C&S will still be your fave. I almost wish I could go back to the begining and start all over again, what a great trip it's been. BUt really, I'm not obsessed! See ya around these parts often and soon, I hope. Peace, Susan (too) Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 09:22:01 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: Cinematic Joni, Perfect Joni Rarely am I struck by moments when while listening to Joni's music, the sheer cinematic power in the synchronization of the scene I'm viewing live and the music is overwhelming. I've had two great ones before, one was while looking out the window of a transcontinental flight over the western and southwestern US, with "Paprika Plains." The second was the orchestral version of "A Case of You" while riding a train down the eastern bank of the Hudson River. The third was tonight, at around 2am, a beautiful calm still night in Los Angeles, driving slowly down a forlorn Santa Monica Boulevard in downtown Hollywood with "The Wolf That Lives In Lindsay." I will carry these chills forever. Another context also occurred to me in relation to the discussion of "Joni's ragged sound" on some tracks, or as some have put it, her refusal to sacrifice the emotion in performance to the pursuit of sonic perfection. I don't believe I have ever heard a studio masterpiece as brilliantly conceived and perfectly realized as "The Wolf That Lives In Lindsay." Sound balance and rhythmic flows have never been so deftly placed before or since by anyone, in my humble opinion. It is, simply, aural manna. CC PS . Another good moment was cruising Sunset Boulevard with Kakki to "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter." "If you've got a place to go, you just got to go there." -- JM _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 08:32:24 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: May 4th NJC Today, 32nd anniversary of Kent State ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 08:08:01 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Middle East NJC Susan Guzzi wrote: To label all Arabs as > evil, is disgusting and simplistic. Yes, it is. And again, no one here did that. > My apologies to all here for the bandwidth and my anger, I am just tired of people almost > purposefully misinterpreting what people say and mean on this issue. As in the above. mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 14:59:30 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Middle East NJC Dolphie Bush wrote: > Susan Guzzi wrote: > > To label all Arabs as > > evil, is disgusting and simplistic. > > Yes, it is. And again, no one here did that. > Laurent, I have posted that I believe that it takes two sides to cause conflict and to proliferate it. I still believe that and though I do hold the Israelis responsible for not doing all they can do to help find peace, I agree with you that most of the fault lies with the Arabs. You are right, they don't want peace. They simply want Israel exterminated. Don't fear that all believe what they read or heard for I have no illusions as to the motives of the Arabs. I consider them evil and as politically incorrect as that might be, it is the conclusion that I have come to and I make no apologies for it. I find comparing Sharon to a Nazi war criminal absurd and wonder just how pacifist we would be if our borders and lives were faced with the constant onslaught, such as that Israel is bombarded with daily. I would surmise that the U.S., Britain, and most other countries would have already brought out the heavy fireworks. I give Israel a great amount of credit for the restraint that they do show. mack my apologies. there must be another Mack here who wrote the above. I can undertsand one Mack getting pissed off at having words attributed to him that the other Mack wrote. Perhaps Mack 1 and Mack2 would be better sigs, then we can distiguish between the two. Or is it a case of just assuming that either of them don't mean what they write? It would save a lot of hassle. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 10:03:32 EDT From: Sylphidiam@aol.com Subject: Re: All I Want, original lyrics Well Bob, it did indeed work and made for a very happy surprise for me this morning. Thank you so very very much. I'm sincerely thrilled to have this. All I Want has always been one of my favorite songs and I'm touched to have this historical version. I guess it's time to introduce myself properly. Hi. I'm Cairn and I'm a musi-holic. I can't get enough. I want it all the time. When I'm not around it live (or in Memorex), it seem to always be in my head. My dad (who was murdered a couple of years ago) was a musician and my mom was a belly dancer. I kind of ran from wanting to play music as fast as my little legs could carry me, seeing a lot of the shadows and hardships of that life. Strangely enough when my dad died something in me screamed to start playing piano, which I did. My style is minimalistic and though I have a little a trio, I don't see myself as a musician...a performance artist perhaps, definitely a poet/storyteller...still trying to figure all that packaging/boxing of self out... I'm turning 30 this summer, and while my musical taste is quite varied and far reaching, (everything from the Grateful Dead (and family) to Black Sabbath, Kid Rock, Bob Marley, Nina Simone, Ella Fitzgerald, Carole King, Ray Charles, Tom Waits, Tori Amos, PJ Harvey, Captain Beefheart, Prince...really could go on and on, but don't want to be tedious, just want to give a hint of myself), Joni has certainly carved herself a place right there in the heart of it. My first Joni album was Blue (when I was 17...and pregnant. Little Green owned me that year. My son turned 12 this year and I included it on his Birthday CD), then Court and Spark, Turbulent Indigo and Hejira. My Joni collection is rounded out with Night Ride Home, Dog Eat Dog, Mingus and Both Sides Now and a few single songs I've managed to aquire through the trading of mixed CD's and tapes over the years. I must say after reading posts on this list for a while now, I'm on a bit of a mission to aquire Song to a Seagull, Hissing of Summer Lawns and Run for the Roses (how many albums does she actually have anyway?) About this place; it seems quite special. I'm not a very list joining person. A lot of the archives for a lot of lists I've read seem so full of crazy petiteness (none of which seem to exist here) that again, I want to run as fast as I can in the other cyber direction. I really enjoy it here. I'm thrilled to be gifted with such a fine and knowledgeable, kind group of people to help me develop a more intimate knowledge of Joni. The web site is absolutely beautiful, though I know I've been through but a fraction of it and Les, I just love Today's Articles and Today in History. I've really been enjoying that feature of this place. It is so very very special. Thank you. That must be it for now. Thank you for being her, thank you for having me...and Bob double extra thank you's with sprinkles on top for this amazing original All I want. Until next time... >>Cairn<< ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 10:12:37 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Night Ride Home <> I hadn't heard NRH in awhile, and spun it from start to finish yesterday. Really an excellent record. Come In From The Cold should have been edited, I'm always ready for it to be over before it is. I don't care for Nothing Can Be Done much, but that's just me I suppose. Two Grey Rooms is of course one of her masterpieces because like her best work, we can easily insert ourselves into the story. And has she ever written a "meaner" lyric than: "You'd eat your young alive, For A Jaguar in the drive" (From "The Windfall(Everything For Nothing)) I don't mean that as a negative statement - it's a brilliant lyric because of its impact. Cherokee Louise almost always moves me to tears with its story of childhood betrayal, and the fact that the friend knows where to find her (under the bridge) but now she's there because she's hiding in fear & shame as opposed to the fun mischievious adventure of youth. So bittersweet... Much more to say about NRH, but I'm done for now. Bob NP: Min, "Big Yellow Taxi" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 10:19:03 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: All I Want, original lyrics <> Cairn, you're very welcome! I'm glad that it worked. Thanks to YOU for opening up and sharing with us...yes, I can see how "Little Green" would have owned you during that time and provided some needed sustenance I'm sure. You'll also be blown away and moved by "For The Roses", I'm sure. Bob NP: Shadows & Light, "Chinese Cafe" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 10:30:26 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Covers # 29, REAL GOOD FOR FREE As usual, I'm going to give away a complimentary copy of the hot-off-the-presses "Covers, Volume #29" CD to whoever comes the closest to the Joni song I've selected for this month. Please include both the song title and record as some of her songs appear on more than on. For example: Judgement Of The Moon & Stars - For The Roses (please just send your guess to me, and not the list) And speaking of FTR, I'll once again "sweeten the pot" this month and include a copy of "For The Roses - Live" that captures a bevy of live recording of the FTR songs, presented in album order. The lineup: 1. Banquet - Norman, OK 6/29/83 2. Cold Blue Steel And Sweet Fire - Philadelphia, PA 2/16/76 3. Barangrill - West Hollywood, CA, 11/17/72 4. Lesson In Survival - New York, NY 2/23/72 5. Let The Wind Carry Me - Philadelphia, PA 3/2/72 6. For The Roses - Los Angeles, CA 3/3/74 7. See You Sometime - Paris, France 6/15/72 8. Electricity - Seattle, WA 2/16/72 9. You Turn Me On I'm A Radio - Detroit, MI 7/4/83 10. Blonde In The Bleachers - Hawaii '72 11. Woman Of Heart And Mind - Ambler, PA 8/22/74 12. Judgment Of The Moon And Stars (Ludwig's Tune) - - Camden, NJ 6/2/00 Bonus tracks: 13. Banquet - New York, NY 2/23/72 14. Cold Blue Steel And Sweet Fire - Los Angeles, CA 3/3/74 15. For The Roses - Chicago, IL 5/30/00 16. You Turn Me On I'm A Radio - Philadelphia, PA 3/2/72 17. Judgment Of The Moon And Stars (Ludwig's Tune) - West Hollywood, CA 11/17/72 Good luck, & happy guessing!! Bob NP: Harper's Bizarre, "Both Sides Now" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 09:38:47 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Middle East NJC I have one word for you Colin: therapy. Unlike many here, I am not afraid of you and your brutish tactics don't scare me. It is amazing that someone who constantly posts about the abuse they have endured has no problem abusing others. I have seen you dissect multiple posts over the time I have been here, twist words and meanings to suit you as to somehow make yourself sound knowledgeable and wise, name call at random, and post incessantly as to what you think is right and wrong. Your obvious rancor with Laurent boils down to one thing; he disagrees with you. Yes, being called racist pisses me off, to use your eloquent words, as does the fact that you think you have the right to tell others here what to think and to post. The difference between you and me is that I do not hide behind a self made persona of sweetness and light and do not claim to be perfect, in any way. The fact is that political posts were made and then you made it personal with your name calling, and then have to audacity to infer that Mack should not be angry about it. In the future I will remember to try to apply illogic (to understand them) to your posts before I dissect them and post why you should not have said what you did. The many lurkers who hide from you may continue to do so but I will not. mack the racist texan I am fed up with this business already as you know you misconstrued what I said but don't have the class to admit it. The JMDL is not your personal playground I know you think the JMDL is Colin's land and that you can say and do whatever you wish I usually just sit back and allow you to do it but in the future you can bet that the sam mack and though I do hold > the Israelis responsible for not doing all they can do to help find peace, I > agree with you that most of the fault lies with the Arabs. You are right, > they don't want peace. They simply want Israel exterminated. Don't fear > that all believe what they read or heard for I have no illusions as to the > motives of the Arabs. I consider them evil and as politically incorrect as > that might be, it is the conclusion that I have come to and I make no > apologies for it. I find comparing Sharon to a Nazi war criminal absurd and > wonder just how pacifist we would be if our borders and lives were faced > with the constant onslaught, such as that Israel is bombarded with daily. I > would surmise that the U.S., Britain, and most other countries would have > already brought out the heavy fireworks. I give Israel a great amount of > credit for the restraint that they do show. > > mack > > > > my apologies. there must be another Mack here who wrote the above. I can > undertsand one Mack getting pissed off at having words attributed to him that > the other Mack wrote. > > Perhaps Mack 1 and Mack2 would be better sigs, then we can distiguish between > the two. > > Or is it a case of just assuming that either of them don't mean what they > write? It would save a lot of hassle. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 09:45:52 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: cairn njc Welcome Cairn. Great post. Made me think. Yes, it exists here to. A wise bit of advice from you, even if unknowingly, is to avoid political topics, no matter how asinine they might seem. I apologize to most of you for my getting involved in this latest bit of hogwash. I am sorry. mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 10:57:25 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: the Prince collaboration? Yeah, it may not be Prince's "fault". She also rejected material from Charles Mingus for heaven's sake! She rebuffed the Chieftains when they repeatedly asked to remake "Magdeline Lauderies" with her vocal. (Eventually she accepted.) She chose not to contribute to Karen O'Brien's biography. It's her method of operation. Her pattern. Joni is permenantly unavailable. Lamadoo James in Urbana IL asked: <> Bob from South Carolina answered: > It never materialized...Joni says that Prince approached her with some songs, but they were too 'out there' for her, Prince being the combiner of the profound & the profane that he is. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 11:06:00 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Recommended CD's for Susan Susan, From "Court and Spark", you could go to another album of fun songs, most of which are upbeat and would have sounded great on the radio: "Wild Things Run Fast" It wasn't adjacent to C&S in time but they're certianly twins of spirit. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 16:23:02 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Middle East NJC Dolphie Bush wrote: > I have one word for you Colin: therapy. Unlike many here, I am not afraid > of you and your brutish tactics don't scare me. It is amazing that someone > who constantly posts about the abuse they have endured has no problem > abusing others. Grow up, Mack. No one has abused you. you wrote something offensive, and when called on it, you deny having written it. NO ONE called you a name. NO ONE called you racist. Saying a comment is racist is not name calling. YOU are the one who has gotten personal and abusive, like many who can't back up what they say or do. I don't play games with you or anyone esle. I don't lie and I don't abuse. YOU do both and like others who do the same you try to push the blame elsewhere. No one twisted your words. You wrote them and they are plain to see. Of course it is much easier for you to get personal and abusive. I know your game well. "The many lurkers who hide from you may continue to do so but I will not." what a brave man you are! and you sound suspiciously like a 'lady' I know...... have a good day Mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 08:36:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: Recommended CD's for Susan Paul P wrote: > And what's all this bunk about 'Dog Eat Dog'? Oh Paul ... within the JMDL there are definite DEDheads, and there definite "non-DEDheads," but not many between. I agree with everything you wrote about DED, though! DEDheads, raise your hand! : ) Lori DEDhead in MD NP: "Wherever You May Be" from Bonnie's very excellent new album ~ Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 16:49:09 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Recommended CD's for Susan > DEDheads, raise your hand! : ) Hand up. I enjoy DED very much and it ranks as one of my favourite Joni albums. > > > Lori > DEDhead in MD > > NP: "Wherever You May Be" from Bonnie's very excellent new album > > ~ > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 23:54:09 +0800 From: "James Phillips" Subject: NJC- Israel Palestian thread and commentary dear all: I have been reading the thread about the Arab/Israeli situation and finally decided to throw in my 2 cents worth for what it's worth. What the Palestions have done, with there suicide bombings etc. is not the answer to there problems. Pure and simple. But on the same token, what the government of Israel has done since Israel was founded as a modern-day nation in the late 40's (was it 48 or 49, I can't remember)is wrong. They have done exactly what we (the US) have done to non-white citizens before the civil rights movement of the 60's. I know I am going to make my share of enemies on that, but that is what I truely believe. And why Israel needed to invade other countries to steal territory is beyond me. I don't want to sound like an Israel basher pro Palestian but as what my Grandma used to say there are two sides to every coin. I think that both sides are too fault for whatever reason of there own. That is my opinion. James Phillips now playing "Silver Lining" by Bonnie Raitt - -- Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 12:10:53 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC New music <> Yes, indeed, Lori...an excellent new one from Bonnie, well worth the wait. She got me with the Little Feat-ish funky "Fool's Game" which kicks it off and it stays consistently good throughout. A couple of forgettable songs, but even they're made enjoyable by Bonnie's vocal, fine musicianship, and Mitchell Froom's well-balanced production. Like the best of her work, it presents a variety of slow slide-blues that I love, and some raucous rockers as well. If you like this one, check out Shannon McNally's "Jukebox Sparrows" which is even better! Also new and getting lots of eartime: Elvis Costello - When I Was Cruel Wilco - Yankee Hotel Foxtrot And coming up Tuesday, TWO from Waits! Damn, is it a good time to be alive or what! :~) Bob NP: Bonnie Raitt, "Wounded Heart" (a prettyy piano ballad, would suck in the hands of Celine, but it's a gem under Bonnie's wings) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 11:15:08 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Middle East NJC you have a good day too, colin. > > Grow up, Mack. No one has abused you. you wrote something offensive, and when > called on it, you deny having written it. NO ONE called you a name. NO ONE > called you racist. Saying a comment is racist is not name calling. YOU are the > one who has gotten personal and abusive, like many who can't back up what they > say or do. I don't play games with you or anyone esle. I don't lie and I don't > abuse. YOU do both and like others who do the same you try to push the blame > elsewhere. No one twisted your words. You wrote them and they are plain to see. > Of course it is much easier for you to get personal and abusive. I know your > game well. > > "The many lurkers who hide > from you may continue to do so but I will not." > > what a brave man you are! > > and you sound suspiciously like a 'lady' I know...... > > have a good day Mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 12:50:54 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: more Spider-man NJC By the way, one of the last things that I expected in Spider-man was Macy Gray - not enough of her, she is just beginning to rock out when something happens, but her moments there were cool. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 11:12:04 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Middle East NJC I just wrote to two people OFF list last night and told them I would NOT get pulled in..... BUT......... Very good post Susan!! And for the most part....RIGHT ON, with much of what you wrote. Very hard to do what you did, write with so much passion,with out name calling and *offending* anyone. I would disagree with your views on Sharon, though. I think he has used restraint....he could have just bombed the hell of that refuge camp instead of sending his foot troops in. Sending those foot troops is much more riskier.....than just shooting from the air. (at least you did not defend me) Laurent and his beloved France: If you are a Jew it is not the safest places to be right now. Actually,the whole of Europe. (In Berlin,Jews for reasons of safety, were cautioned about wearing outwardly religious symbols) Europe could deal with the passive Jew...but the taking up of arms Jew they cannot. Also.....Neo-Nazi's joining ranks with fascists....extreme right-wingers in the mix too.....THE LUNATIC FRINGES......what is so scary is these groups hated each other in the past.....but they are uniting.....the glue that is making them come together is their common hatred of the Jews! I feel so sorry for the JEWS!!......Laurent is right: a lot of people what them wiped from the face of the earth. I believe this to my very core. When people hate another people....just because.....there is no peaceful solution. With unspeakable EVIL......there are no negotiations. A few disagreements with your post... >The Middle East inability to deal with eachother is causing violence world >wide. During the >Clinton administration, one year ago September 2000, Palestine and Israel >were the closest they >have ever been to a solution. Since Sharon has come to power the entire >process has taken leaps >backwards! It is Arafat who walked out. Arafat almost signed but he didn't,he walked. Now in hindsight.. he regrets not signing. Why not sign it now then... IF he truly regrets not signing it two years ago. >most Israeli children would gladly befriend Palestinian children. To label >all Arabs as >evil, is disgusting and simplistic. To cut our support to Israel would be >terrible. >I do believe that the Palestinians deserve a homeland, but certainly not at >the cost of selling >out Israel. But is the opposite true? Palestinian children on the other hand....well let's just say, there is not too much teaching of....LOVE THY NEIGHBOR. >Frankly, I am not a flag waver, most here know that. But I am insulted by >your flimsy analysis of >the US. It's true that the rich only get richer and the middle class is >shrinking. Funny how >that only happens in America! I remember when friends have returned from >France, their stories >about how wonderful the rich are, standing on street corners passing out >their money.;-) I don't think the French as a whole like us very much. I agree with much of what you have to say Laurent. But your assessment of the good ole U.S. is way off. Am I wrong about the French not being too crazy about us? Or at least our lifestyle? >Good luck with your elections in Almighty France! Nice choices. I'm sure >the French people had >nothing to do with that! See how easy it is to throw a stone. Well Susan....nobody wants this guy anyway. His ratings are way,way down!! In the sub-something's!! :-) >My apologies to all here for the bandwidth and my anger No need to apologize......you wrote with grace..... Take care everyone..... Bree NP:Steely Dan...AJA......Speaking of masterpieces!! Oh yeah....some of my sources....The Simon Weisenthal(sp?) Center in LA. Peace, >Susan > >P. S. Running for cover! >Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness >http://health.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 11:19:35 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Correction NJC (at least you did not defend me) HUH?? I meant Susan....at least you did not OFFEND me. But you can,if you want, defend me anytime. ;-) Bree _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 10:56:59 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Cinematic Joni, Perfect Joni Hi CC - you are in L.A.? Sorry I missed you. > The third was tonight, at around 2am, a beautiful calm still > night in Los Angeles, driving slowly down a forlorn Santa Monica Boulevard > in downtown Hollywood with "The Wolf That Lives In Lindsay." I will carry > these chills forever. I will, too. > PS . Another good moment was cruising Sunset Boulevard with Kakki to "Don > Juan's Reckless Daughter." Yes, it was outstanding - we were singing at the top of our lungs with the windows open and then remember we could have sworn we saw Larry Klein pull up along side us at a stop light. I remember ducking down in the seat and trying to roll up my window at that point LOL Please let me know next time you are in town - it would be fun to get together again. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 18:35:44 +0000 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: Re: Middle East NJC Mack wrote: >>I agree with you that most of the fault lies with the Arabs. You are right, they don't want peace. They simply want Israel exterminated. Don't fear that all believe what they read or heard for I have no illusions as to the motives of the Arabs. I consider them evil and as politically incorrect as that might be, it is the conclusion that I have come to and I make no apologies for it. << Mack, if you really mean that you consider 'Arabs' evil, then this IS racist, or at the very, very least, pretty offensive. If you mean that you consider the Palestinian suicide bombers evil then it makes more sense, and of course you have a right to express this view, but please be more precise with your comments. How would you feel if someone said Americans were racist murderers when they really mean the Ku Klux Klan (or Timothy K)? >>There are no more poor or rich or class divisions here than there are in France. << How do you know? You have no desire to visit but yet you pontificate. With what authority? >>Judging the entire American way of life from one vantage point, California, is akin to judging the entire continent of Europe by, say, France. << Yes, and judging all Arabs by comparison with the suicide bombers is akin to judging all Americans by, say, the Boston Strangler. >>This reminds me of the old saying that I can talk about my family but I don't want anyone else to do it.<< Exactly, and what irks many of us non-US listers (or at least me, I imagine I'm not the only one who feels this way. Colin is well able to speak for himself) is that our opinion about the actions of the US government (in this case in support of Israel, "Sharon is a man of peace", give me a break!!) is considered invalid. In which case I look forward to hearing more 'legitimate' criticism of US government activities from people like Vince and Fred, to name only two. mike in Barcelona. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 11:46:41 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Middle East (njc) I agree Rosalie. That is too simplistic and redneck to say all Arabs are evil. And I have not heard or seen written on this list, that anyone hates all Arabs or Palestinians for that matter. It is NOT racist because I or others side more with Israel. The same if you side more with the Palestinians:Does this make you anti-Semitic? Of course not!! IT is pure evil when the Palestinians teach their Children hate. ( Hey mommy, when I grow up I want to be a suicide bomber.....just like aunt Anyname ) But again,not all Arabs/middle east/ teach hate. And some want a peaceful solution. To co-exist with their neighbors:Israel. Bree > What Mack stated has nothing to do with racism. His opinion is shared >by many. People who teach their children to murder, all in the name of >religion are indeed evil , no matter what their race. If the Pals could >wipe out Isreal in a day they would do so and call it a job well done. This >is evil at it's worst, that is plain to see. > Rosalie > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 19:50:40 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Middle East NJC Disclaimer: this post is nothing more than my right to give a different point of view. If anyone chooses to read it as abuse, becasue I disagree with them, that is their choice: Bree wrote: If you are a Jew it is not the safest places to be right now. Actually,the whole of Europe. Unfortunately Jews have alwsays been scapegoated. Need I add wrongly? Le Pen has about 20% of the vote.(as of todays' news) that is very worrying. however, this is not too surprising. France conspired with Hitler during WWII tho now it appears they were all in the Resistence. here in the UK, we have our own Nazi's, the Birtish National Party. They have just won 2-3 council seats. Minor, very minor, but a warning. these seats were won in high ethnic wards. People always need someone to blame for their own inadequacies. Bree wrote: But is the opposite true? Palestinian children on the other hand....well let's just say, there is not too much teaching of....LOVE THY NEIGHBOR. Unforunately this is true. So is the fact that Jews teach their children the same. Not too long ago, the BBC held a forum in Israel. the audience made up of Israeli's. The hatred shown was akin to that shown by the other side. However, many of the audience were appalled by this too. Fundamentalism, in whatever guise, is wrong, no matter whether they are Arab, Jew or Xtian. Children on both sides of this conflict are being abused daily. They are being fed the hatred of the people bringing them up. This will result in adults who hate. It will be very very difficult to undo this damage. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 14:53:54 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: was Middle East, now the French - NJC Bree writes: << I don't think the French as a whole like us very much. >> As much as I love France, I have to admit that this statement is true, Bree. But I would go a bit further and say that the French don't seem to like *anyone* very much! Arrogance has been a part of the French national character since long before the US even existed. If I had to choose between being an illegal immigrant in the US or a sans papiers in France, I would choose the US in a heartbeat. I have also heard a few stories lately of African-American tourists being treated very badly in France, so I guess the days of France being a safe, welcoming haven for African-Americans may be coming to an end -- unless they happen to be as famous as Josephine Baker, James Baldwin or Tina Turner. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 20:08:40 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: was Middle East, now the French - NJC Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > Bree writes: > > << I don't think the French as a whole like us very much. >> > > As much as I love France, I have to admit that this statement is true, Bree. > But I would go a bit further and say that the French don't seem to like > *anyone* very much! > I have known French people here in the UK and can't say i noticed any differenece between them and us. They are people with the same virtues/vices as the rest of us. The last ime I was there, I was a child and ignorant about such things Maybe they all goosestepped and I didn't realise what it meant....... ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-);-);-);-);-);-);-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 14:15:21 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Middle East NJC Mike wrote: > Mack, if you really mean that you consider 'Arabs' evil, then this IS > racist, or at the very, very least, pretty offensive. If you mean that > you consider the Palestinian suicide bombers evil then it makes more > sense, and of course you have a right to express this view, but please be > more precise with your comments. How would you feel if someone said > Americans were racist murderers when they really mean the Ku Klux Klan > (or Timothy K)? For the umpteenth time, I did not mean all Arabs on the face of the earth. The context was the Arabs in conflict with the Jews, that is the post I responded to. How do you know? You have no desire to visit but yet you pontificate. > With what authority? And from whom would I get that authority? > > Yes, and judging all Arabs by comparison with the suicide bombers is akin > to judging all Americans by, say, the Boston Strangler. Ditto the above. > > Exactly, and what irks many of us non-US listers (or at least me, I > imagine I'm not the only one who feels this way. is that our opinion about the actions of the US > government (in this case in support of Israel, "Sharon is a man of > peace", give me a break!!) is considered invalid I never made any such statement about Ariel Sharon. Look elsewhere for that one nor did I say anything demeaning about France, other than I have no desire to visit there. I like Laurent, respect his statements, and would not do so. mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 22:23:44 +0100 From: colin Subject: sin/sinner NJC There is a term used by some people which says 'hate the sin, not the sinner'. It remained a somewhat meaningless saying to me becasue it was said by people who did in fact hate the sinner and in my ignorance I dismissed the whole package. However, it does mean something. it means a great deal. If we describe people who commit evil acts as evil, that sounds pretty accurate, yes? Bad people do bad things, yes? Good people do bad things? well no. Not if you follow the above logic. Only bad people do bad things. Sooooo... all of us are plain bad people. we have all done bad things. We have all acted selfishly, we have all acted or spoken in anger. we have all hurt someone else. In short we have all made mistakes. Therefore we are all bad. That does not seem very helpful. To think of ourselves as bad people just leads to more bad being done. Unless of course it is only others we consider bad people because our mistakes are not as bad as theirs! If we are taught from a very young age that something is not bad, indeed that it is 'holy' or 'heroic' then we will grow up believeing this. This may lead us to do things that others view as evil. Are we to think'oh, my parents were wrong, my family is bad' becasue others think we are committing evil? Not likely. very few people have the courage to renounce their families and their heritage. It is far too frightening and painful for most to handle. This goes for many 'ideas' which is one reason i feel it is wrong to teach children to follow a particular religion. I don't feel it wrong to teach children about religions, just to bring them up in one. Why? Because children are unable to think for themselves and by them time they are able, their meaning structure has been set and it will be painful for them to think differently. My parents were 'blank' and so i too am 'blank'. I must be 'blank' becasue if i doubbt it, and decide that 'blank' is wrong then that will mean my parents who I love are also wrong. Likewise with other beliefs. If my parents believe that a certain group of people are bad, then I too will beliwve that. If I think it is wrong to think like that, then my parents must ahve been wrong and my parents are good people who love me and they cannot think bad or do bad. Can they? So either it is the sin that is bad or it is the sinner. if it is the sinner then we are ALL bad. I prefer to think otherwise. - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 15:44:37 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Arthur Lee review (njc) For the Love aficionados here, I didn't make it to the show last week but found a review from another recent appearance here in Los Feliz. I've got to keep my eyes peeled better to catch the next one! ARTHUR LEE & LOVE at Spaceland, April 2 Recently released after serving the better part of 10 years in state prison (the three-strikes-enhanced fruit of accrued dope, arson and firearms charges), Sunset Strip psych-rock legend Arthur Lee made his unannounced return to the bandstand a charged moment, and one he made the very most of. While his career had been on a slow upturn prior to incarceration, for most of the '80s and early '90s he'd labored under a cloud of disrespect and ridicule (the last time a review of a Lee show appeared in the Weekly, an editor inserted, apropos of nothing, "Of course he had to be physically propped up for the entire set"). While Lee, then a damaged yet beautiful figure whose chemically induced disorientation had brought much of this poison upon himself, often seemed at the point of no return, his performances were always riveting. Still, mere fans' faith did not prepare one for this Arthur Lee, who hit the stage and tore into "Little Red Book" with such focus and force he seemed like a different person. The entire set was a dazzling showcase both for Lee's renewed ability and for Love's extraordinary catalog -- some of the most complex, idiosyncratic and artful examples of rock & roll ever created. Lee relished the highly vocal adoration of a sellout crowd (many of whom appeared too young to have ever seen him before), and the atmosphere was poignant, verging on surreal. Wielding a tambourine like a testifying evangelist, he sang with intensity and control, demonstrating a sort of beatific grit so affecting that it was nothing short of profound. When he strapped on his ax and launched into "Alone Again Or," Lee pushed the proceedings ever higher; by "7 and 7 Is" it was an orgiastic, euphoric exercise in pure Los Angeles rock & roll. The band, anchored by some of the Baby Lemonade cats whose assistance proved crucial 10 years ago (and helped expand his audience beyond a small tribe of grizzled fanatics), was more than able, but Lee, ever the purist, halted them completely at one point. This strict adherence to Love's freewheeling style paid off, emphasizing Lee's criminally overlooked stature and his striking, undiminished artistic power. Beyond historic, this was no mere comeback frolic: Arthur Lee, who reportedly wrote more than a hundred songs while imprisoned, still has plenty to tell us. (Jonny Whiteside) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #194 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?