From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #192 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, May 3 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 192 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Night Ride Home songbook ["Marian Russell " ] Today's Articles: May 3 [les@jmdl.com] Today in History: May 3 [les@jmdl.com] Re: JT's "BEST LIVE", njc [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Night Ride Home songbook - njc ["Marian Russell " ] RE: [LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk] Re: JT's "BEST LIVE", njc ["Victor Johnson" ] [none] ["mia ortlieb" ] Re: raised on rivalry? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: JT's "BEST LIVE", njc [Gerald Notaro ] Middle East, NJC ["Laurent Olszer" ] Link to Palestinian slide show, NJC ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: What to buy next? [Lori in MD ] Re: JT's "BEST LIVE", njc [Randy Remote ] so many joni's, so little time... [WARREN901@aol.com] so many joni's, so little time... [WARREN901@aol.com] which Joni cd to get next (for Susan) ["James Phillips" ] Re: which Joni cd to get next (for Susan) ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: the Prince collaboration? njc ["Dolphie Bush" ] collab with prince njc ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: which Joni cd to get next (for Susan) [Lori in MD ] ded njc ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Middle East, NJC [colin ] Re: Middle East, NJC ["Dolphie Bush" ] Middle East (njc) ["Rosalie Kerr" ] Re: Middle East, NJC [colin ] Re: Middle East (njc) [colin ] Re: Middle East (njc) [colin ] Re: Middle East, NJC [Vince Lavieri ] All I Want, original lyrics [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Middle East (njc) ["Dolphie Bush" ] Re: Middle East, NJC ["Dolphie Bush" ] Middle East, 2.0 NJC [Vince Lavieri ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 03:00:16 -0400 From: "Marian Russell " Subject: Night Ride Home songbook I have not had any luck finding this songbook anywhere. I was wondering if some kind person could send me a photocopy of it, so that I could at least have it as a reference. I will pay for the cost of copying and shipping. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 03:08:34 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Articles: May 3 On May 3 the following item was published: 1979: "Rock Festival Set For Upstate" - New York Times (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/790503nyt.cfm - -------- Can you type? http://www.jmdl.com/typing/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 03:08:34 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: May 3 On May 3 in history: 1972: Joni performs in England at the Manchester Odeon. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 04:40:07 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: JT's "BEST LIVE", njc "Jim L'Hommedieu" writes: >Apolgies if I'm the last jt fan in the world to buy >this disc. I broke down and bought the abbreviated >single-disc version and > >WOW! > >I had no idea this thing was so great! Everytime I've >played it I get goosebumps during the funky drum/vocal >breakdown at the end of "Country Road". If you've >never heard it, that will sound hysterical and >ridiculous, but I gotta tell you, I am a re-confirmed >believer. > >When I was a blue-collar middle-American, I might have >said, "HELL YES!!" > >I guess I'll have to buy the full 2-CD version now. Yes, you'll have to. It's double WOW! James is one of the few singers from "back then" who are actually singing better now than then (Joni is singing differently, and just as well, but not necessarily better). Case in point: heard Stills singing "Bluebird" with Buffalo Springfield, and goddamn, that man had a lovely voice. Emphasis on "had." Pretty much the same for C, N, and Y, for that matter. And while I'm at it, McCartney, too. But James ... James got even better. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 06:52:16 -0400 From: "Marian Russell " Subject: Re: Night Ride Home songbook - njc Someone has offered to send this to me. Many thanks! Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 07:36:18 EDT From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #130 In a message dated 5/3/02 3:01:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Which Joanie CD do you think I should buy > next? > > Susan > > Dog Eat Dog Hejira For the Roses ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 08:33:33 EDT From: ZZScotty@aol.com Subject: raised on rivalry? OK, so I'm transcribing one of the articles, and the author writes: "Backed by a dream band, featuring Pat Metheny on guitar, Jaco Pastorius on bass, Michael Brecker on saxophones, and The Persuasions on back-up vocals, she intermixed the milestones of her career ("Woodstock," "Big Yellow Taxi," "Free Man in Paris," and "Raised on Rivalry") with the roots and branches of American music." Have I missed something? Sean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 09:05:48 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Mags N Brei wrote: > > > Don't forget to run out and buy our all time favourite, Dog Eat Dog. > Surely you meant to say that one, didnt you Jerry? Yikes, no. We want her to continue listening to Joni! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:14:46 +0100 From: LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk Subject: RE: Now, Play Nice! Or it's straight to your room and no supper! Mags N Brei wrote: > Don't forget to run out and buy our all time favourite, Dog Eat Dog. > Surely you meant to say that one, didnt you Jerry? Yikes, no. We want her to continue listening to Joni! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 10:33:16 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: JT's "BEST LIVE", njc > "Jim L'Hommedieu" writes: > > >Apolgies if I'm the last jt fan in the world to buy > >this disc. I broke down and bought the abbreviated > >single-disc version and > > > > > Yes, you'll have to. It's double WOW! > No, you don't have to...I haven't bought this disc yet. jt fan, still remembering sitting three feet in front of JT listening to him sing "Sweet Baby James" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 09:48:34 -0500 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: [none] Hi Susan, and welcome to the list! Court and Spark was my first album, too. Next I bought "Ladies of the Canyon". I would recommend this one as Joni's voice sounds so young and sweet. She also sounds like she is having so much fun! If you really like deep, introspective music I would suggest "For The Roses", which is my favorite album. Although sometimes it's better to get to know the artist first, before "you dig too deep and lose good sleep" (as Joni would put it). Have fun with your new adventure and keep us posted! Mia _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 11:04:38 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: raised on rivalry? <> Just a mondegreen on the part of the author! ;~) Bob NP: Cornelius, "Point" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 10:17:21 -0500 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: JT's "BEST LIVE", njc I'll ring in here at saying JT's Live double cd is one of the best live cd's ever. A dynamite performance and the sonics are excellent. It rarely leaves my disc player. Jerry Victor Johnson wrote: > > "Jim L'Hommedieu" writes: > > > > >Apolgies if I'm the last jt fan in the world to buy > > >this disc. I broke down and bought the abbreviated > > >single-disc version and > > > > > > > > > Yes, you'll have to. It's double WOW! > > > > No, you don't have to...I haven't bought this disc yet. > > jt fan, still remembering sitting three feet in front of JT listening to > him sing "Sweet Baby James" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 15:51:12 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Middle East, NJC > From: Vince Lavieri > Subject: njc Middle East > > Ariel Sharon was the architect of the 1982 massacres in Lebanon. For > that role, he went into somewhat of a political exile. He returned from > that exile by being the focal point of the current Palestinian uprising > by his deliberate provacative visit to the Temple Mount - he invited > intifada, and he got it. And he rode that to political rehabilitation > and getting elected as prime minister of Israel. > > Asking the Palestinians to trust Sharon is somewhat akin to 1940s > European Jews being asked to trust, say, Heydrich or Eichmann. Yes, I > am saying that Sharon is a war criminal, for the 1982 massacres. > > I heard Sharon attacking Arafat in connection to Martin Luther King: > King called for nonviolence, it was said, and thus Arafat is a failure > in comparison to King because of the violence of the intifada. However, > Sharon failed to analogise that King called for nonviolence and not the > use of troops and tanks to bomb homes, buildings, kill people, and that > Sharon is as far from the King vision as Arafat. What a hypocrite. > > Especially in that we saw terrorism in this country - the bombing of the > Sunday School children - and King still taught nonviolence - a lesson > Arafat and more especially Sharon need to hear, in that Sharon commands > a muc h greater, far more powerful arsenal. An individual who is so > crushed by oppression that they engage in a sucide bombing is a pittance > in comparision with the Israeli armaments. > > Barakm offered Arafat a deal that would have left pockets of a paelstine > state not continguous with other Palestinian areas - all Palestinian > areas were islands surrounded by Israel. Arafat was hardly offered a > viable Palestinian homeland. > > Would history be different if Rabin had not been assassinated by a right > wing Israeli? > > Everyone claims that God/Allah gave the land to them. Unless the deeds > from God are produced, properly witnessed and notarized, I must rest in > the Scriptures that the earth is the Lord's, and all the lands therein. > In that the land is all God's/Allah's, we can only presume that we are > tenents on God's earth and must find a way to live together. > > Demonizing the other side leads to more violence. > > Israel must withdraw its troops from palestinian areas. > The infitada must stop, and the withdrawal may allow that to happen, at > least to a major extent. > .... > > (the Rev) Vince > Sorry to revive this topic once more, but this email which arrived while I was on vacation deeply troubles me, especially from a religious man who is a well respected JMDLer. On Lebanon: The PLO was welcomed there after being expelled from Jordan (which massacred 20.000 Palestinians in the process). The PLO cleverly used the latent internal conflicts between Christians, Muslims and Druzes to basically create a civil war which resulted in Syria invading the country. The Sabra & Shatila massacre was done by Christian milicia, not by Israeli forces. I guess you can blame Sharon for not interfering in an internal feud. With the same kind of logic you can blame Jews for 2000 years for not interfering in Romans killing Jesus. Why isn't anybody accusing arab leaders when they kill tens of thousands of their nationals? On Sharon's visit to Temple Mount: This is a hoax. As I posted last month, Sharon went to the wailing wall, as is every Jew's right. He informed the Palestinian Authority beforehand to precisely avoid any form of provocation and he was given a green light to go there. While he was there, under police protection, no incidents occured whatsoever. A couple of days later the Arab propaganda used it to start the 2nd intifada. A similar hoax took place about 3 years ago when the Arabs claimed that Israel was digging a tunnel under the mosques. Even though it was proven a hoax later, it did trigger a series of bloody riots. On nonviolence and the teaching of hate: Please see next post with a link to Palestinian children slide show (does not need power point software this time). I defy you to supply any teaching of hate by Israelis to their children. Also, an article from Time magazine in April 2002 relates that Iran used thousands of their own children to clear up the mine fields after the war with Irak. They simply gave them a key chain and told them the way to heaven was "over there". Unbelievable but true (I also heard the same story from a retired french colonel). On Barak's deal: If anybody is to blame it's the British and the U.N, for creating an unviable partition of palestine for a tiny state surrounded by hostile neighbors. First in 1921, the British violated the UN mandate they had over the territory and unilaterally gave away 80% of palestine to emir Abdallah. This palestinian land became the transjordan emirate and then the kingdom of Jordan after WW2. Second, the UN in 1947 voted to create 2 states, one Jewish and one Arab, side by side. The Jewish state had unlogical and unviable borders, in some areas the state was as wide as the road!!! 2 weeks later, the Arab League rejected the UN resolution and declared it would use force to prevent its implementation. Back to Barak's deal: except for a 5% land swap the borders of the proposed state respected the status quo. At any rate Arafat didn't complain about the proposed territorial partition, he asked for the right of return which he knew was unacceptable and hence proves he didn't want to obtain a state by peace. If you think Israel has too much land, just look at a map. It occupies 1% of the land mass in the middle east. Aside from giving it all to Palestinians and dive into the sea, I don't see what else they can do. On demonizing the other side: OK sure, Sharon is the devil here. Then perhaps you can explain why terrorists attacks on Jews never stopped ever since the PLO was formed in 1964, even after Oslo, even when Rabin or Barak were prime ministers. Also while you're at it, please explain the wars in 1948, 1956, 1967 at a time when there were NO occupied territories whatsoever nor Israeli settlements. Come on, anybody with a sensible mind and who's willing to look at history (as written by non-partisan historians) or even at the PLO charter can instantly tell that Arabs want to wipe off Israel from the map (where they still havent put it). A commentary to article 6 of the PLO charter says the aggression against the palestinian people began in 1917, not in 1967, and that everything since 1917 is null and void. This means that they want to regain complete sovereignty over all of palestinian land, including what is now Jordan. The PLO was created in 1964 to free up Tel Aviv, Haofa, not Nablus or Gaza which were not occupied. So for you to relay those simplistic lies is simply beneath you and the moral authority which your religious position confers you. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 15:29:02 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Link to Palestinian slide show, NJC > http://www.frontpagemag.com/slideshowimages/001.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:44:40 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: USA immigration, NJC Hi Helen, Last night, my wife and I watched a Coppola movie '"The Idealist-in french" about shark lawyers defending a greedy insurance co. in the U.S. This kind of revived all the good reasons why we decided to move back to France after living in L.A. for 10 years. One reason, among others, is that one of our daughters was born with a birth defect and we probably couldn't have afforded the many surgeries she had to undergo were she born in the U.S. Another is there is so much exploitation of the working class there while the rich get richer and do not share their wealth at all. The working class endures all this because they don't suspect it's better elsewhere (for example, people in France get 5 weeks paid vacation, it's the law + work 35hrs/week), and also the "american dream" makes them hope it's going to get better. They don't realize the "dream" only comes true for a tiny minority. I refer you to DED (since it's both one of our favorites) for the complete list of reasons. IMHO, the USA is great if you were born there and are preferably white, young, rich and healthy, or if you come from a country where living conditions are worse, or if you're willing to step over as many people as it takes to get ahead. Last I heard, New Zealand wasn't worse, quite the contrary! So, I have no idea what your motives are for wanting to move there, but I'd love to discuss it on or off list if you wish. Whatever you do, don't burn your bridges. Love, Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 08:42:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: What to buy next? Hi Susan, and welcome! My first Joni was Hejira, although I'd heard "Help Me" and "Free Man In Paris" on the radio back in the late 70s. My second Joni was the live album "Miles of Aisles," and I recommend it! The album gave me an "overview" of Joni's work up through 1974, plus there's a good deal banter between Joni and the audience. Whatever you choose though, you can't go wrong! Glad to have you here ... write more soon! Lori in MD ~ Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 09:26:49 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: JT's "BEST LIVE", njc FredNow@aol.com wrote: > James is one of the few singers from "back then" who are actually singing > better now than then (Joni is singing differently, and just as well, but not > necessarily better). Case in point: heard Stills singing "Bluebird" with > Buffalo Springfield, and goddamn, that man had a lovely voice. Emphasis on > "had." Pretty much the same for C, N, and Y, for that matter. And while I'm > at it, McCartney, too. I just saw Paul live, and as on his latest, "Driving Rain" his voice sounds incredible, almost impossible to believe he is turning 60 soon. His voice now is better than it was during some of the Wings era, and rivals his Beatles tracks from his 20's. And better than any of the young singers out there. I saw a live concert of CSNY on the tube from their last tour -was kind of shocked that Nash's voice was so off pitch and rough, considering he has been the least drugged out of the bunch. Crosby still sounds pretty good, and Neil is...well, Neil. RR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:54:27 EDT From: WARREN901@aol.com Subject: so many joni's, so little time... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:19:13 EDT From: WARREN901@aol.com Subject: so many joni's, so little time... hi susan, welcome aboard !!! i second all the CDs already mentioned. not surprising since in a recent post i cited my favorite joni as, " whichever one i'm listening to at the time." you've got quite alot of delightful listening ahead since there are 21 releases, not including the soon to be released ( i hope ! ) project. i think i would have to agree with bob that you might want to start from the beginning. i will say that joni has always been an artist who rarely repeats herself, she has moved through many genre over the years. so if you are looking for something close to " court and spark " you might want to go with " for the roses," the album before, or " the hissing of summer lawns," the album after " court and spark." ( " court and spark " was joni's most commercially successful album.) happy tunes to you... jonily yours, warren keith p.s. then there is " dog eat dog..." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 02:29:22 +0800 From: "James Phillips" Subject: which Joni cd to get next (for Susan) dear list: I am surprised that no one mentioned Joni's masterpiece "Blue" to Susan. For me, that was the first Joni album I ever bought when I was 15 years old (back in 1990). It's the one I have been known to flip back to and listen most to. Another album of Joni's I recommend is Joni's Shadows and LIghts double cd. It is a good smpler of Joni's late 70's experimental work. It also has the wonderful Joni and her guitar solo reading of "Woodstock on it" as well as "Free Man in Paris" on it. James Phillips, Urbana IL USA now playing Ella Fitzgerald - Ella Returns to Berlin - -- Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 02:34:22 +0800 From: "James Phillips" Subject: the Prince collaboration? dear all: I am sure this has been addressed on this forum before, but here goes again. What-ever happened to the collaboration between Prince and Joni? I remember having read something about it, but never knew the outcome. Any answers will be appreciated. James in Urbana IL USA - -- Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 15:28:09 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: the Prince collaboration? <> It never materialized...Joni says that Prince approached her with some songs, but they were too 'out there' for her, Prince being the combiner of the profound & the profane that he is. Bob NP: They Might Be Giants, "Till My Head Falls Off" 2.21.97 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 12:21:35 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: JT's "BEST LIVE", njc Randy wrote: > I just saw Paul live, and as on his latest, "Driving Rain" his voice sounds > incredible, almost impossible to believe he is turning 60 soon. His voice > now is better than it was during some of the Wings era, and rivals his > Beatles tracks from his 20's. And better than any of the young singers > out there. I heard that Paul is going to be on the entire hour of the Tonight (Leno) show tonight. > I saw a live concert of CSNY on the tube from their last tour -was > kind of shocked that Nash's voice was so off pitch and rough, > considering he has been the least drugged out of the bunch. > Crosby still sounds pretty good, and Neil is...well, Neil. Crosby is a living miracle. I thought he completely lost his voice during the "lost" years but he got it back and has sounded beautiful for a number of years now. Nash's voice is better than ever IMHO - I think you might have heard him on an off night, or maybe his monitor was off or something. Neil is always Neil ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:55:31 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: which Joni cd to get next (for Susan) : > > I am surprised that no one mentioned Joni's masterpiece "Blue" to Susan. For me, that was the first Joni album I ever bought when I was 15 years old (back in 1990). It's I mentioned blue yesterday. mack NP:Stephen Bishop-Careless > -- > > Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 12:31:23 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: PLO/ USA immigration, NJC Laurent, Having tended toward sympathy for the Palestinians most of my life, based on the limited news and information I received growing up in Los Angeles, far away from the conflict. I always believed in Israel's right of existence as a country but think I had the typical American reaction of sympathy for the underdog. My perceptions of the entire situation have turned 360 degrees in recent months. Sometimes one awakens to clarity regarding right and wrong despite years of propaganda. Nevertheless, I am really dismayed that you would have such views of the US, views based on stereotypes, Hollywood fiction and other motivations which have also been propagated and repeated enough times where people start to believe them as true. I could provide you with information which would refute many of the false or unfactual accusations against the US but it would take up too much bandwidth. I don't know what your experiences were like in the U.S. but they are not the experience of most Americans. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:56:58 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: the Prince collaboration? njc Thank goodness. If she had done that, I could not have understood or forgiven her. That refusal is a testament to her musical genius. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 15:17:26 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: the usa vs france, elsewhere, etc. njc Laurent, you say you lived in LA for 10 years. I would not write that this made you an authority on the American experience. Though I agree with you on some points, the United States is still a fine place to live and one of the fine qualities it does possess is diversity. Judging the entire American way of life from one vantage point, California, is akin to judging the entire continent of Europe by, say, France. Yes, our healthcare system is a major mess; no argument there and many of our governmental policies are very unfair and not well thought out. We are not such ignorant beings that we all think someday we will get rich but the great thing about the U.S. is that it could happen. There are no more poor or rich or class divisions here than there are in France. It doesn't escape one to see that people still flock to the U.S. from everywhere and there must be good reason for it. I make no secret of my feelings for the locale in which I preside but that is my fault and I realize that there are many great places in the U.S. to relocate if I choose to do so. I am glad that you are an advocate of France but I would not choose to live there, don't even want to visit. This country has many problems, as all do, but the American way of life is a great one. This reminds me of the old saying that I can talk about my family but I don't want anyone else to do it. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 15:27:01 -0500 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: the Prince collaboration? njc Couldn't disagree with you more. Prince is a major talent. And his recent recording of A Case of You is tribute to his respect of Joni and her work. Certainly would have been better than her "collaboration" with Thomas Dolby. Jerry Dolphie Bush wrote: > Thank goodness. If she had done that, I could not have understood or > forgiven her. That refusal is a testament to her musical genius. > > mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 15:29:41 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Middle East, NJC Laurent, I have posted that I believe that it takes two sides to cause conflict and to proliferate it. I still believe that and though I do hold the Israelis responsible for not doing all they can do to help find peace, I agree with you that most of the fault lies with the Arabs. You are right, they don't want peace. They simply want Israel exterminated. Don't fear that all believe what they read or heard for I have no illusions as to the motives of the Arabs. I consider them evil and as politically incorrect as that might be, it is the conclusion that I have come to and I make no apologies for it. I find comparing Sharon to a Nazi war criminal absurd and wonder just how pacifist we would be if our borders and lives were faced with the constant onslaught, such as that Israel is bombarded with daily. I would surmise that the U.S., Britain, and most other countries would have already brought out the heavy fireworks. I give Israel a great amount of credit for the restraint that they do show. mack 002 9:51 AM Subject: Middle East, NJC > > From: Vince Lavieri > > Subject: njc Middle East > > > > Ariel Sharon was the architect of the 1982 massacres in Lebanon. For > > that role, he went into somewhat of a political exile. He returned from > > that exile by being the focal point of the current Palestinian uprising > > by his deliberate provacative visit to the Temple Mount - he invited > > intifada, and he got it. And he rode that to political rehabilitation > > and getting elected as prime minister of Israel. > > > > Asking the Palestinians to trust Sharon is somewhat akin to 1940s > > European Jews being asked to trust, say, Heydrich or Eichmann. Yes, I > > am saying that Sharon is a war criminal, for the 1982 massacres. > > > > I heard Sharon attacking Arafat in connection to Martin Luther King: > > King called for nonviolence, it was said, and thus Arafat is a failure > > in comparison to King because of the violence of the intifada. However, > > Sharon failed to analogise that King called for nonviolence and not the > > use of troops and tanks to bomb homes, buildings, kill people, and that > > Sharon is as far from the King vision as Arafat. What a hypocrite. > > > > Especially in that we saw terrorism in this country - the bombing of the > > Sunday School children - and King still taught nonviolence - a lesson > > Arafat and more especially Sharon need to hear, in that Sharon commands > > a muc h greater, far more powerful arsenal. An individual who is so > > crushed by oppression that they engage in a sucide bombing is a pittance > > in comparision with the Israeli armaments. > > > > Barakm offered Arafat a deal that would have left pockets of a paelstine > > state not continguous with other Palestinian areas - all Palestinian > > areas were islands surrounded by Israel. Arafat was hardly offered a > > viable Palestinian homeland. > > > > Would history be different if Rabin had not been assassinated by a right > > wing Israeli? > > > > Everyone claims that God/Allah gave the land to them. Unless the deeds > > from God are produced, properly witnessed and notarized, I must rest in > > the Scriptures that the earth is the Lord's, and all the lands therein. > > In that the land is all God's/Allah's, we can only presume that we are > > tenents on God's earth and must find a way to live together. > > > > Demonizing the other side leads to more violence. > > > > Israel must withdraw its troops from palestinian areas. > > The infitada must stop, and the withdrawal may allow that to happen, at > > least to a major extent. > > > .... > > > > (the Rev) Vince > > > > Sorry to revive this topic once more, but this email which arrived while I > was on vacation deeply troubles me, especially from a religious man who is a > well respected JMDLer. > > On Lebanon: > The PLO was welcomed there after being expelled from Jordan (which massacred > 20.000 Palestinians in the process). The PLO cleverly used the latent > internal conflicts between Christians, Muslims and Druzes to basically > create a civil war which resulted in Syria invading the country. > The Sabra & Shatila massacre was done by Christian milicia, not by Israeli > forces. > I guess you can blame Sharon for not interfering in an internal feud. With > the same kind of logic you can blame Jews for 2000 years for not interfering > in Romans killing Jesus. Why isn't anybody accusing arab leaders when they > kill tens of thousands of their nationals? > > On Sharon's visit to Temple Mount: > > This is a hoax. As I posted last month, Sharon went to the wailing wall, as > is every Jew's right. He informed the Palestinian Authority beforehand to > precisely avoid any form of provocation and he was given a green light to go > there. While he was there, under police protection, no incidents occured > whatsoever. A couple of days later the Arab propaganda used it to start the > 2nd intifada. > A similar hoax took place about 3 years ago when the Arabs claimed that > Israel was digging a tunnel under the mosques. Even though it was proven a > hoax later, it did trigger a series of bloody riots. > > On nonviolence and the teaching of hate: > > Please see next post with a link to Palestinian children slide show (does > not need power point software this time). > I defy you to supply any teaching of hate by Israelis to their children. > > Also, an article from Time magazine in April 2002 relates that Iran used > thousands of their own children to clear up the mine fields after the war > with Irak. They simply gave them a key chain and told them the way to > heaven was "over there". Unbelievable but true (I also heard the same > story from a retired french colonel). > > On Barak's deal: > > If anybody is to blame it's the British and the U.N, for creating an > unviable partition of palestine for a tiny state surrounded by hostile > neighbors. First in 1921, the British violated the UN mandate they had over > the territory and unilaterally gave away 80% of palestine to emir Abdallah. > This palestinian land became the transjordan emirate and then the kingdom of > Jordan after WW2. > > Second, the UN in 1947 voted to create 2 states, one Jewish and one Arab, > side by side. The Jewish state had unlogical and unviable borders, in some > areas the state was as wide as the road!!! > 2 weeks later, the Arab League rejected the UN resolution and declared it > would use force to prevent its implementation. > > Back to Barak's deal: except for a 5% land swap the borders of the proposed > state respected the status quo. At any rate Arafat didn't complain about > the proposed territorial partition, he asked for the right of return which > he knew was unacceptable and hence proves he didn't want to obtain a state > by peace. > > If you think Israel has too much land, just look at a map. It occupies 1% > of the land mass in the middle east. Aside from giving it all to > Palestinians and dive into the sea, I don't see what else they can do. > > On demonizing the other side: > > OK sure, Sharon is the devil here. > Then perhaps you can explain why terrorists attacks on Jews never stopped > ever since the PLO was formed in 1964, even after Oslo, even when Rabin or > Barak were prime ministers. > > Also while you're at it, please explain the wars in 1948, 1956, 1967 at a > time when there were NO occupied territories whatsoever nor Israeli > settlements. > > Come on, anybody with a sensible mind and who's willing to look at history > (as written by non-partisan historians) or even at the PLO charter can > instantly tell that Arabs want to wipe off Israel from the map (where they > still havent put it). > > A commentary to article 6 of the PLO charter says the aggression against the > palestinian people began in 1917, not in 1967, and that everything since > 1917 is null and void. This means that they want to regain complete > sovereignty over all of palestinian land, including what is now Jordan. > The PLO was created in 1964 to free up Tel Aviv, Haofa, not Nablus or Gaza > which were not occupied. > > So for you to relay those simplistic lies is simply beneath you and the > moral authority which your religious position confers you. > > Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 15:40:15 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: collab with prince njc I had not heard of the one with Dolby. That must have been quite terrible. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:02:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: which Joni cd to get next (for Susan) James wrote: > I am surprised that no one mentioned Joni's masterpiece "Blue" to Susan. I don't know the source of my memory (and I can't find reference to it in the JMDL Library -- although I did notice the new photos of Joni in the upper left of various pages ... very nice, Les!), but didn't Joni once say that Blue was her personal favorite? (This would have been before Hejira was released.) Mack and James are right, Susan -- Blue is an excellent choice and it probably ranks as the Joni album most often featured in movies and TV shows, as well as being the Joni album most likely to be found in the "average" (meaning not Joni fanatic) "folk" music fan's record collection. Lori in MD ~ Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 16:11:30 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: ded njc thanks for the info Jerry. I have read all of the opinions concerning that album and wondered if I would like it, should buy it and if so, when? That sheds much light on the decision. don't think I will be rushing out for that one. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 23:17:49 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Middle East, NJC > I consider them evil and as politically incorrect as > that might be, it is the conclusion that I have come to and I make no > apologies for it. Racism is not politically incorrect-it is evil. It is disgusting and there is no justification for it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 17:42:34 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Middle East, NJC There is no racism there Colin. The subject was the Arabs and the Jews and, thus, I was referring to those (of the countries and those responsible Arabs that are currently involved in the mess with the Israelis and in the middle east), which is clear to anyone not trying to change the meaning of my message. Furthermore, the Arabs and the Jews are genetically, closely, related so that wouldn't make any sense either. mack . - ----- Original Message ----- From: "colin" To: "joni" Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 5:17 PM Subject: Re: Middle East, NJC > > I consider them evil and as politically incorrect as > > that might be, it is the conclusion that I have come to and I make no > > apologies for it. > > Racism is not politically incorrect-it is evil. It is disgusting and there is no > justification for it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 18:49:56 -0500 From: "Rosalie Kerr" Subject: Middle East (njc) What Mack stated has nothing to do with racism. His opinion is shared by many. People who teach their children to murder, all in the name of religion are indeed evil , no matter what their race. If the Pals could wipe out Isreal in a day they would do so and call it a job well done. This is evil at it's worst, that is plain to see. Rosalie _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 01:04:49 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Middle East, NJC Dolphie Bush wrote: > There is no racism there Colin. Below is what you wrote. You quite clearly state you think Arabs are evil. That is racism, no matter how you dress it. > for I have no illusions as to the > motives of the Arabs. I consider them evil and as politically incorrect as ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 01:05:26 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Middle East (njc) > This is evil > at it's worst, that is plain to see. as is the racism behind your words. > > Rosalie > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 01:05:24 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Middle East (njc) > This is evil > at it's worst, that is plain to see. as is the racism behind your words. > > Rosalie > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 20:20:33 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Middle East, NJC someone posted: > > I consider them evil and as politically incorrect as > > that might be, it is the conclusion that I have come to and I make no > > apologies for it. Colin responded: > > > Racism is not politically incorrect-it is evil. It is disgusting and there is no > justification for it. Colin, I am not sure that I would call it racism, Not sure what ism I would call it, But the moment that it becomes "them" and that they all are "evil" it is the dehumanization of all of us. Thank you for your words. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 20:48:49 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: All I Want, original lyrics Here you go Cairn, and whoever else is interested...the original lyrics to All I Want, or at least, these were the lyrics she sung on BBC-TV in 1970: Intro: "Here's another really new one that isn't quite finished, just for fun...(nervous chuckle)... Hmmm Hmmm Hmmm Hmmm Hmmmm, Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo, I am on a lonely road and I am travelling, Looking for the truth in men and in me Oh my jealousy, my greed, they all unravel me, It undoes all the joy that could be Oh, you're not real, no, no, Do you think you're foolin' me, With these false pretensions, Of phony camaraderie? (La La La's) All I really really wanted love to do, was to bring out the best in me and in you too All I really really wanted love to do, was to bring out the best in me and in you too Hmm Hmm Hmm, La La La, Doo Doo Doo I am on a lonely road and I am travelling, Looking for the truth in men and in me Oh my jealousy, my greed, is my unravelling It undoes all the joy that could be Oh, but you're not real, no, no, Do you think you're foolin' me, Hmm Hmm Hmm With your phony camaraderie? Hmmm Hmmm Hmmm, La La La... All I really really wanted love to do, was to bring out the best in me and in you too All I really really wanted love to do, was to bring out the best in me and in you too Bob NP: Duh! ;~) PS: I attached an audio copy of the song...first time I've done this, so let me know if it works! [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of 08 Track 8.wma] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 20:20:18 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Middle East (njc) Colin, please trim your posts. As for calling me a racist, I can deal with that for I know how your mind works. As for Rosalie, to call her a racist is one of the greatest injustices that I have ever seen. This woman is so far from racist that it approaches the ridiculous. I made a post and then a remark about a certain group of people, that history shows have acted and continue to act in the most heinous of ways, and that somehow, you think, gives you license to start calling names. I could do so to but I am not going to for I suppose being the moral barometer of the JMDL is a heavy enough burden to bear, despite the hypocrisy involved. . mack rosalie wrote: > > This is evil > > at it's worst, that is plain to see. colin wrote: > > as is the racism behind your words. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > -- > bw > colin > DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, > Duo80. > > colin@tantra-apso.com > http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 20:22:50 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Middle East, NJC someone wrote (the rev.) > > Colin, I am not sure that I would call it racism, Not sure what ism I would call > it, But the moment that it becomes "them" and that they all are "evil" it is the > dehumanization of all of us. It is amazing that this is dehumanizing to all of us though the constant barrage of comments directed at the Israelis is not. And unlike this person, I know exactly what I would call it. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 21:31:03 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Middle East, 2.0 NJC Lauent, everyone, I come home from work and I find these words addressed to me: Laurent, writing about me, says "So for you to relay those simplistic lies is simply beneath you and the moral authority which your religious position confers you." I will let God be the judge of whatever moral authority I have based upon my vocation. I have no moral authority personally any more or any less than anyone else, and actually, I feel that personally I have no moral authority whatsoever because I know me. I will let history (and God is the God of history) deal with the rest. God will tell me in due time whether what I say are simplistic lies. I confess that I made a mistake in my original post which I realized the next day when I read it in the JMDL - the speech that I heard was not by Sharon but by Netenyahu. I apologise for that and I apologise if I misspelled Netenyahu's name; I am finding lots of various spellings on the internet. I did not correct mis-attributing because no one responded to my post and it seemed so ignored that I let it go. For the rest, I stand by what I said, and I thank for your reposting it. I think you hit me up for things that I did not say; you certainly attributed things to me that I did not say. I think you used my post as a way too state your positions and your feelings, which is ok. Netenyahu's speech set me off. My post set you off. Such is the language of human dialogue. As a human being and as a Christian pastor, and as someone who has struggled with Shoah all of my life, I incredibly resent your analogy which ended "you can blame Jews for 2000 years for not interfering in Romans killing Jesus." That analogy is too overloaded. You do not know me, but I am not the person to whom you can slap that analogy on. Given all that has happened behind that statement, I am sitting here struggling trying to find anything to say, and I can not. Rhetorical flourish your analogy may be, that was beyond the pale. As for the rest, again, I stand by what I said, my correction included. The legend of Sharon the Innocent is there for those who want to believe it. Believe me, nothing occupied my mind so much in 1982 as the Sabra & Shatila massacres. I am just that type of person. I cannot explain it, but everything that I believe and teach and preach arises out of Shoah. And 1982 was not like the Warsaw Ghetto uprising or the struggle of 1948 nor 1967. How can I say, without being inflammatory as we know how overladen this all is with human suffering. 1982 was not genocide. Jenin is not genocide. Those would be more like Katyn or Lidice. I don't give a damn who exactly pulled the trigger ar Sabra and Shatila. Babi Yar was accomplished by Ukrainian troops and I still hold the Nazis responsible. The heirs of those who escaped Babi Yar cannot in moral connection with those victims of the ravines, they cannot in any way countenance Sabra and Shatila. My friend, I ended my post by saying the occupation of Palestinian areas must end and the infatada must stop. Were a Jew in Israel now, I cannot say exactly what I would feel, because that is not my situation. And the same is true if I were Palestinian. However, right now, today, as me, were I as who I am, were I to be in Irsrael right now, I would hope that I would have been one of those Americans and Europeans who broke through the lines to bring food into the palces where Palestinians were surrounded. That does not diminish my rage, my grief, my anguish for the victims of the Tel Aviv disco bombing or the Passover suicide bombing. Each new incident is not an incident, it is the suffering of the innocent. The hatred on both sides is so overwhelming. How to end it, I do not know. The rhetoric on both sides is so dehumanizing. The grievances on both sides are real. And to each side, I would say, has the destruction of human beings on the other side of the struggle, has that brought peace, or security? The cries of the victims, are they so different that you can tell them apart? What I hear is one long symphony of suffering and I cannot tell Palestinian or Jew apart in the sounds of grief, anguish, suffering. The blood of the dead all looks the same to me. Laurent, I can hardly pray anymore on these things. My prayers on Sunday are more of a wail. I used to spell out for God those who have been the most recent victims, and every week that has been a changing of the catalogue of pain, but all I can bring myself to pray now is, "When will you save the people?" But the reality is, it is people killing people, and all of the killing has not brought an end to killing, and it never will. I know that you will reject what I say and if I were in your situation I might well feel differently than I do. But you are where you are at and I am where I am at, and Laurent, in all of this, I cry. For you and I are on both sides of the equation in common huamnity. The words that come to mind are from Yevtushenko's poem: And I myself, like one long soundless scream Above the thousands of thousands interred, I'm every old man executed here, As I am every child murdered here. This has been the difficult post that I have ever written. (the Rev) Vince BABI YAR By Yevgeni Yevtushenko Translated by Benjamin Okopnik, 10/96 No monument stands over Babi Yar. A steep cliff only, like the rudest headstone. I am afraid. Today, I am as old As the entire Jewish race itself. I see myself an ancient Israelite. I wander o'er the roads of ancient Egypt And here, upon the cross, I perish, tortured And even now, I bear the marks of nails. It seems to me that Dreyfus is myself. The Philistines betrayed me - and now judge. I'm in a cage. Surrounded and trapped, I'm persecuted, spat on, slandered, and The dainty dollies in their Brussels frills Squeal, as they stab umbrellas at my face. I see myself a boy in Belostok Blood spills, and runs upon the floors, The chiefs of bar and pub rage unimpeded And reek of vodka and of onion, half and half. I'm thrown back by a boot, I have no strength left, In vain I beg the rabble of pogrom, To jeers of "Kill the Jews, and save our Russia!" My mother's being beaten by a clerk. O, Russia of my heart, I know that you Are international, by inner nature. But often those whose hands are steeped in filth Abused your purest name, in name of hatred. I know the kindness of my native land. How vile, that without the slightest quiver The antisemites have proclaimed themselves The "Union of the Russian People!" It seems to me that I am Anna Frank, Transparent, as the thinnest branch in April, And I'm in love, and have no need of phrases, But only that we gaze into each other's eyes. How little one can see, or even sense! Leaves are forbidden, so is sky, But much is still allowed - very gently In darkened rooms each other to embrace. "They come!" "No, fear not - those are sounds Of spring itself. She's coming soon. Quickly, your lips!" -"They break the door!" - -"No, river ice is breaking..." Wild grasses rustle over Babi Yar, The trees look sternly, as if passing judgement. Here, silently, all screams, and, hat in hand, I feel my hair changing shade to gray. And I myself, like one long soundless scream Above the thousands of thousands interred, I'm every old man executed here, As I am every child murdered here. No fiber of my body will forget this. May "Internationale" thunder and ring When, for all time, is buried and forgotten The last of antisemites on this earth. There is no Jewish blood that's blood of mine, But, hated with a passion that's corrosive Am I by antisemites like a Jew. And that is why I call myself a Russian! ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #192 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?