From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #181 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, April 24 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 181 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Priests marrying, NJC ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] Today's Articles: April 24 [les@jmdl.com] Today in History: April 24 [les@jmdl.com] Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [colin ] Re: Priests marrying, NJC [colin ] Re: fiction or nonfiction? ["Kakki" ] Re: fiction or nonfiction? addendum ["Kakki" ] RE: Priests marrying (NJC) ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] RE: fiction or nonfiction? ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [dsk ] Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [colin ] Re: Priests marrying (NJC) [colin ] Jimi, Joni, Stills & Leary [Julius Raymond ] Re: michelle branch (NJC) ["Rosalie Kerr" ] The Dawntreader [Lazyasz@aol.com] Re: The Dawntreader [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFJFOiCgZmljdGlvbiBvciBub25maWN0aW9uPw==?= [SCJoniGuy@] Re: michelle branch (NJC) ["Sybil Skelton" ] Bad news(njc) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: michelle branch (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Bad news(njc) [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [Lori in MD ] Another free Joni cover 4U [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Bad news(njc) [colin ] Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [colin ] Re: Another free Joni cover 4U [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Unearth exciting quotes... [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] I guess this qualifies as more bad news NJC [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: NJC, long, boring, inflammatory [Lori in MD ] [none] [] Hello again! and more on "Is early Joni More Melodic?" ["katfud@earthlink] guitar, cool drawing of eyes and signed by joni [shane ] fiction or nonfiction? ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: fiction or nonfiction? NJC [Tyler Hewitt ] FW: WARNING!!! tasteless joke from the human highway list (njc) ["Victor ] RE: I guess this qualifies as more bad news NJC ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: fiction or nonfiction? [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: fiction or nonfiction? ["Victor Johnson" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 02:01:19 -0500 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: RE: Priests marrying, NJC Colin wrote: "You are right. But peodohilia is not an unhealthy 'sexaul outlet'. It is about power and shame and fear and guilt, not sex.: Colin, I don't claim to have nearly the insight into this subject that you do, unfortunately, but it seems to me that pedophilia is ALL of the above: power, and shame, and guilt, and fear, all brought together in the guise of an unhealthy, and horrific, sexual act. At any rate, let's hope that the Roman Catholic Church finally gets its act together on this issue, even if it means that ordinary parishioners simply refuse to further support "business as usual" with their church attendance, volunteered time, and financial contributions, until they see firm evidence of a change. Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 03:01:43 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Articles: April 24 On April 24 the following item was published: 1968: "Riverboat $1.75 Cover" - Variety (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/680424v.cfm - -------- Can you type? http://www.jmdl.com/typing/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 03:01:43 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: April 24 On April 24 in history: 1983: Joni performs at Wembley Arena in London 1995: Joni performs on the Late Show with David Letterman, singing "Sex Kills". More info: http://www.jonimitchell.com/Letterman95.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:05:16 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC I agree with everything you wrote Bob. The Church is not outside society and what it does, scoiety does. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:25:10 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Priests marrying, NJC "Mary E. Pitassi" wrote: > Colin wrote: > > "You are right. But peodohilia is not an unhealthy 'sexaul outlet'. It is > about > power and shame and fear and guilt, not sex.: > > Colin, I don't claim to have nearly the insight into this subject that you do, > unfortunately, I would say forunately! > but it seems to me that pedophilia is ALL of the above: power, > and shame, and guilt, and fear, all brought together in the guise of an > unhealthy, and horrific, sexual act. yes. tho sex is not it's primary aim. > > > At any rate, let's hope that the Roman Catholic Church finally gets its act > together on this issue, even if it means that ordinary parishioners simply > refuse to further support "business as usual" with their church attendance, > volunteered time, and financial contributions, until they see firm evidence of > a change One of the reasons it won't work like this, and why, as Bob wrote, the congregation supoported the Bishop, is beacuse it will be far too painful for many to see the flaws in the Church they rely on. It is why many people deny that there parents were anything but good. Facing truth means haveing to change one's whole world view-change the very foundations our lives are built upon. If one's life revolves around a Church that is good and holy, if our security is based on that, then to accept otherwise is going to be extremely painful and shattering. Thus people avoid it and and deny it. That is what denial is all about. It is about keeping our meaning structures intact for without them, we risk annihilation of self. the real alternative tho is to examine our meaning structures and change what needs to be changed in them, with strenght and courage, and thus avoiding the annihilation we so fear. Speaking of annihilation of self, that is what child abuse does. It annihilates the self of the child.(it is also the basis of torture and mind control practised by govts and some religions). A perosn with no sense of self is very easily controlled. They also have no real life. It is so strong a need, to keep the self intact, that this is why people are willing to die rather than give it up. Thus people will lay down their lives for a cause or die rather than give in to those who try to break them. unfortunately, the self of the abused child is destroyed before it has properly developed. There is evdience to show that this is not recoverable from. that certain things, like destruction of trust, is not ever gained back. This does not mean that we cannot live good lives, just that it will never be what it could have been. This annihilation of self also produces the people society hates, psychopaths and sociopaths, and society takes no responsibility for prodcuing such people, prefering instead to label them as evil(instead of their behaviour), and to blame it on their genes. Other then the 'normal' abuse that goes on in soctie's family homes, we are stroing more and more trouble with the results of war, the horrors that children face daily do result in dysfuctional people. we reap what we sow. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:36:44 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: fiction or nonfiction? Tyler, this is a subject that sometimes pisses people off around here and so I'll try to flameproof myself in advance ;-) > Is there a definitive source for this? Has Joni > mentioned in interviews that particular songs are > based on real people and experiences? If not, how can > we be sure they are 'true', or at the very least, not > composites of several events/persons? The general answer is that she has sometimes identified a specific person, sometimes indicated it is a composite and sometimes said it is up to the listener to take their own individual meaning from any particular song. She has voiced not liking to have songs attributed to a specific person but then she has gone ahead and identified the person herself sometimes. There are many sources for what she has voiced one way or another - in the articles in the JMDL database, in books and in live performances over the years that have been preserved on tape. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:41:32 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: fiction or nonfiction? addendum Should have added: > The general answer is that she has sometimes identified a specific person, or cat ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 02:31:07 -0500 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: RE: Priests marrying (NJC) Colin wrote, in response to a post of mine: "> Colin, I don't claim to have nearly the insight into this subject that you do, > unfortunately, I would say forunately!" Colin, I meant, unfortunately for you. What you experienced should never be visited upon *anyone.* And about Catholics questioning the very meaning-giving structure of their church: I'm sure many will decline to do so, but I see many others here in my home city and in the U.S. doing just that. This moment may prove to be a sea change of the U.S. Catholic Church, or even for the Catholic Church in general. And that may prove to be the only silver lining that can possibly be found in this scandal. . . even though it can never be enough, and can never restore what has been so cruelly and arrogantly taken away. Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 03:01:30 -0500 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: RE: fiction or nonfiction? Tyler Hewitt wrote: "We are all aware I'm sure of Joni's reputation for writing confessional lyrics. But, do we know for sure that her songs are true and/or about her own life experiences? I may be way off base here, but it seems to me that Joni would be perfectly capable of writing fictional songs. A lot of discussion has centered around who a particular song is about. When I read these posts, I always think 'how do we know they are about anyone?' Is there a definitive source for this? Has Joni mentioned in interviews that particular songs are based on real people and experiences? If not, how can we be sure they are 'true', or at the very least, not composites of several events/persons?" I don't doubt for a moment that Joni is capable of writing "fictional" songs, or at the very least, basing her work on composites in her life. And I'm sure she's done both. But it also seems to me that an artist's own life can make him or her more sensitive to certain nuances or issues, so that his/her work may end up having a distinct autobiographical slant to it, even if no such thing was intended. It's all a matter of the prism through which one sees the world. Case in point: two nights ago, I sat down to pay bills to the sounds of "Song to A Seagull" (or "Joni Mitchell": take your pick!). This is an album I first heard nearly twenty-five years ago, and thought I knew well. However, something about listening to it on that particular night, in the stillness of my apartment, and knowing what I now know about what Joni was experiencing at the approximate time those songs were written made me see her lonely, unplanned pregnancy and the relinquishment of Kilauren splashed all over this CD. "Marcie's sorrow needs a man. . . Think back to summer and hear how he tells her, 'Wait for me' " --"Marcie" "Another man reached out his hand, Another hand reached out for more" - --"Nathan LaFraneer" "A dream that you love someone A dream that the wars are done A dream that you tell no one but the grey sea They'll say that you're crazy And a dream of a baby. . ." --"The Dawntreader" "I call to the seagull Who dives to the waters And catches his silver fine Dinner alone Crying, where are the footprints That danced on these beaches And the hands that cast wishes That sunk, like a stone?" --"Song to a Seagull" It just about ripped my heart out. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 04:39:10 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC colin wrote: > > i am perplexed as to why you brought up the 'priests should be allowed to marry' > thing. (of course they should be) Having married preists will not stop child > abuse. Peodophilia is not something one does for lack of an adult to do it > with.(I am sure you know that hence me being perplexed). Yes, I do know that. My thought is that if marriage (i.e., an intimate sexual relationship, including same-sex relationships) was part of Church leaders lives, then all aspects of sex would be more open, and the abuse could not have been hidden for so long. The Church leaders can't even accept and talk about the healthy adult aspects of sex, so it's no surprise they couldn't deal with the abusive behaviors either. They are forced, finally and too late, to deal with it now. Plus, if priests were allowed to be in "real" relationships, they would no longer be seen as odd creatures who are supposedly above the desires of human life, and people in the pews would no longer automatically assume that whatever Father says goes. (I don't understand why people ever follow blindly, but unfortunately many do.) Also, as Mary mentioned, if marriage was allowed, theoretically more men would be willing to become priests so the emotionally and sexually immature ones, the men most likely to become abusers, would not be accepted for training. All of that is why I brought up the idea of married priests as something that needs to be discussed and, without knowing the extent of the horrors going on, has been discussed for a long time by parishioners and some priests too. The pope and his appointed bishops have not been willing to be part of the discussion. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:05:01 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC > Also, as Mary mentioned, if marriage was allowed, theoretically more men > would be willing to become priests so the emotionally and sexually > immature ones, the men most likely to become abusers, would not be > accepted for training. > > Thanks for explaining that. i didn't udnertsand clearly yours and Mary's point. It makes perfect sense now. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:03:07 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Priests marrying (NJC) "Mary E. Pitassi" wrote: > Colin wrote, in response to a post of mine: > > "> Colin, I don't claim to have nearly the insight into this subject that you > do, > > unfortunately, > > I would say forunately!" > > Colin, I meant, unfortunately for you. What you experienced should never be > visited upon *anyone.* > oh. I haven't too clever this morning and reading properly! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 02:12:11 -0700 From: Julius Raymond Subject: Jimi, Joni, Stills & Leary Hi folks. There's a book just out titled _Black Gold: The Lost Archives of Jimi Hndrix_ by one Steven Roby. It's purported to be "the first comprehensive biography to authenticate the lost sessions, previously unknown record collaborations, and rare film and video documents of one of the most innovative and influential rock guitarists in music history." I read in one of the entertainment papers down in L.A. that Joni was mentioned in the book. When I heard that the author was doing a reading at Marin Civic Center Library tonight, in my neck of the Northern California woods, I decided to meander over to take in the presentation and maybe get in on the Q&A. It was turned out to be rather interesting. The author showed some video footage I hadn't seen before, which delighted me. Newly unearthed footage of Jimi performing "Voodoo Chile" and "Hey Joe" on the Lulu Show on BBC televison in 1969. You may remember Lulu from her heart wrenching ballad "To Sir With Love," theme song to the movie of the same name? She had gotten her own variety-type show on BBC with her new-found popularity and the Jimi Hendrix Experience had guested. Jimi was supposed to do a duet with Lulu for their final song, but instead he defiantly launched into a Cream song ("Sunshine of Your Love"), as a tribute to the recently dissolved band. The BBC banned him for life for the stunt, Roby said. After his spiel, I peppered the author with my questions about the "Holy Grail" recordings Jimi did of Joni and himself in Seattle in '69. Well, maybe 'peppered' is too strong a word. Wallflower that I am, I meekly posed two questions, actually. Roby says his understanding is that thieves got away with those Joni reel-to-reels when Jimi's NY apartment was ripped off later that year. In his book, he only quotes the Jimi diary entry about Joni most of us have read before. So, the mystery of what music they made together that night remains. Curses! ;-) There are four Joni references in the book. The Jimi diary bit is one. There are two others that I won't divulge, so as not to rain on the parade of anyone who might want to read _Black Gold_. But I can't resist passing on one excerpt. How's this for a Joni cover?: "One of the first [Alan] Douglas productions involving Hendrix took place on September 30, 1969, at the Record Plant sessions for LSD guru Timothy Leary. Douglas assembled Stephen Stills on guitar, Buddy Miles on drums, John Sebastian on guitar, and Hendrix on bass to record an instrumental track based on Joni Mitchell's newly penned song "Woodstock." He then overdubbed selections from Leary's press conferences and titled the track "Live and Let Live." ... The album was to be part of Leary's 1970 campaign for governor of California, but when the LP was released in April, Leary was in jail for drug possession." I heard the first few seconds of the song on the Net, but couldn't quite get the gist of it in that time. Judging from what I did hear, it probably sucks. It was released on a Ryodisc CD in '92, but I wouldn't sell the farm to buy it off Ebay unless you're into weird...and you know who you are. Nevertheless, if you're a Jimi fan or a wanna be, I recommend the book. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 04:53:16 -0500 From: "Rosalie Kerr" Subject: Re: michelle branch (NJC) I have also heard only a few Michelle Branch songs. I think she is a very talented singer/songwriter, especially for one so young. It is refreshing to see a young woman with talent as opposed to all the Britney clones out there. Michelle's song "Everywhere" is really good and is running through my head as I type! >From: jan gyn >Reply-To: jan gyn >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: michelle branch (NJC) >Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:37:38 -0700 > >What do youse guys think of Michelle Branch? I've heard a few songs that I >liked. >-jan _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:07:44 EDT From: Lazyasz@aol.com Subject: The Dawntreader This is probably my favorite song of hers. Does anyone have any interesting or additional information on it? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:24:35 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The Dawntreader <> Like what sort of "additional information"? "Dawntreader" might just be my favorite song on STAS, but that's a hard pick as the record goes from one compositional masterpiece to another...I can tell you that it's not been covered but once, by The Patrick Regan Band, and it's done to great effect by them featuring both a male & female voice. I can tell you that she has performed the song live, the most interesting one that I've heard is the "Way It Is" recording, which features some background instruments that add some new colors to it. Plus it's a video, so you get to see a young Joni performing it - sweet! Also, in an unrelated story, in the morning paper there was an article about alternatives to diamonds in engagement rings, and the first stone they talked about? The Peridot. Bob NP: Steve Miller, "Your Cash Ain't Nothin' But Trash", New York '78 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:35:54 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFJFOiCgZmljdGlvbiBvciBub25maWN0aW9uPw==?= Man, this was a beauty of a post Mary...and it sums up why Joni means what she does to so many of us. Her work is born anew every day. I mean, I still enjoy going back and listening to Little Feat & The Doobie Brothers, but they don't continually reveal life's realities & mysteries to me. As for Joni's songs being about certain people, I think Joni, like so many other great artists, writes about what she knows, people, places, and times. How could she not invest her work with the myriad images and events that she has experienced? It would be silly to think that she hasn't. And the more we learn about the things she's been through (as Mary so poignantly describes), the more the songs reveal even more depth. And as they reveal more about her, they reveal more about us as we experience the same emotions and experiences. I think the only inherent danger in the "who's it about" game is that it can tend to close you off to looking for further depth in her work. But it's certainly always a fun and interesting exercise, and certainly a natural one given the overly confessional nature of some of her stuff. Bob NP: Steve Miller, "I Love You" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 07:50:41 -0500 From: "Sybil Skelton" Subject: Re: michelle branch (NJC) Interestingly enough, I ran across a People magazine review of her CD a few months ago. Their assessment was "Bottom line: She's no Joni Mitchell". Couldn't have said it better myself. I also happened to stumble across Michelle Branch on a radio show a while back when I guess she was out promoting her CD. I flipped on the show right in the middle of her performing an acoustic version of that song "Everywhere" I think it's called. This was one of those goofy type morning radio shows, and I honestly thought it was a gag song for the first 30 seconds or so. Then I realized it was a for real singer. Amazing what a little production can do. Sybil _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 8:58:36 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Bad news(njc) I showed up to work this morning and was told, pretty abruptly, that I was being let go because "it wasn't working out." This really pisses me off because from the beginning I have been busting my ass and have been completely committed, despite being brought into a situation that was really disorganized and somewhat dysfunctional. I feel like I have been used and discarded, and have been given virtually no compensation (she handed me an enveloped with $100 dollars that is a little more than one days work.) I even went out of my way to tell all my friends in Atlanta about an upcoming arts festival this weekend that they're supposed to have a booth at, and was trying very hard to promote it to anyone I could think of. Meanwhile, my so called "employer" is looking at a state of the art Mercedez van, that she plans on purchasing next week. Maybe this is a blessing. I'm probably better off not working for this lady who seems rather selfish and manipulative. I got completely fed up there one day the other week but I told myself I'd reserve my frustrations and make the best of the situation but I guess I won't have a chance now. I'm very happy here and absolutely do not want to move again. This just completely caught me by surprise though. I was putting all my effort into this place and now I have to once again find some employment. I was going to start focusing on putting a dead/or neil young cover band together and start seriously working on recording a new record and I'm still going to dammit. I'm not going to let this lady fuck up my life. still in shock,Victor. --- Victor Johnson--- waytoblu@mindspring.com"Roses wait for the springtime,They sleep beneath the ground.They hear March winds a callin'For the spring to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:13:43 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: michelle branch (NJC) jan gyn wrote: > What do youse guys think of Michelle Branch? I've heard a few songs that I > liked. > -jan She sounds like a Jewel sound-alike to me. Jerry np: Norah Jones - Cold, Cold Heart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:34:12 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Bad news(njc) Victor, you are in my prayers, and many others as well -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 07:17:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC > Children feel enough guilt, shame and fear as it is when they > report, wothout that being added to their burden. I hadn't thought of that, Colin. When my uncle molested me, I didn't tell anyone for about 10 years, although my reason was a little different: I knew my father would kill him, and I didn't want my dad to go to prison because of scum like my uncle. Lori ~ Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:24:01 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Another free Joni cover 4U To help you make it through Hump Day (or Thursday if you're on digest, or June if you're Evian...) It's a soothing version of "Both Sides Now" from cabaret performer Celia Slattery: http://www.showgigs.com/celiaslattery/2089song4.html Enjoy! Bob NP: Matrixx, "Running Scared" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:33:53 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Bad news(njc) some people are just well... I don't know. sorry to read about your bad news, Victor. You will find something else I am sure, positive of it. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:30:27 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC > I hadn't thought of that, Colin. When my uncle molested me, I didn't > tell anyone for about 10 years, although my reason was a little > different: I knew my father would kill him, and I didn't want my dad > to go to prison because of scum like my uncle. how dreadful. see, it has ramifications way way beyond what people would think.... sometimes, I think using a gun would be fun....on those sorts of people > > > Lori > > ~ > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:01:21 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Another free Joni cover 4U SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > To help you make it through Hump Day (or Thursday if you're on digest, or June if you're Evian...) > > It's a soothing version of "Both Sides Now" from cabaret performer Celia Slattery: > > http://www.showgigs.com/celiaslattery/2089song4.html > > Enjoy! > > Bob > > NP: Matrixx, "Running Scared" You can also hear her sing Get Together, one of Joni's favorite songs. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:11:10 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Unearth exciting quotes... Joniphiles - Here's a quote from a New York Times review (from 1971) on the album "Blue": "I suspect this will be the most disliked of Miss Mitchell's recordings..." You too can unearth exciting quotes such as this! There are a zillion new items to type for the JMDL Library if you are willing and able... http://www.jmdl.com/typing Thanks, Les NP - Norah Jones ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:16:31 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Unearth exciting quotes... <<"I suspect this will be the most disliked of Miss Mitchell's recordings...">> I suspect it WAS immensely disliked...by her PEERS when they saw how high the songwriting bar had been raised! ;~) Bob NP: Debelah Morgan, "Can't Stop Loving You" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:21:48 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: I guess this qualifies as more bad news NJC First off - what an incredible bummer, Victor!!! I really hope something much better comes along. And, of course, my condolences go out to Ric. So, my news is that the cancer has returned. (not a big surprise to me, since I've been in pain since the surgery last October.) BUT, it appears to be again localized, and in exactly the same place as it was before. So, if I pass all the blood tests, ekg, scans, etc., I'll be starting in a study in a couple of weeks. It's a vaccine that uses a protein that's found in 95% of all tumors. They've had an 85% success rate in the lab - but that may or may not translate into a comparable success rate in actual practice. Basically it trains your immune system to attack the cancer cells. The study's duration is 6 months - so I expect to be at JoniFest. So, believe it or not, I'm not as worried or depressed as one might assume. (but I'm grumpy today because the FDA says I have to have a CT scan and I hate having to drink all the contrast dye - yuck!) Just keeping you all updated, since you've been so incredibly supportive to me. I really love this big "family" of ours. And the recent Joni discussions have been terrific! lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:55:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: NJC, long, boring, inflammatory > All this discussion of priests, child abuse, pedophilia, > pornographic watches, etc., and you know that I would > chime in eventually. Long and inflammatory, yes, but not boring in the least. Thank you Vince, for your emotionally powerful post. I read every word, and I think your post deserves to be forwarded on ... and on ... ... because you're right, on every point. Lori ~ Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 12:27:19 -0500 From: Subject: [none] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:33:41 -0400 From: "katfud@earthlink.net" Subject: Hello again! and more on "Is early Joni More Melodic?" Hey Everyone, I recently resubscribed after having left the list shortly after 9/11. I have posted a couple of times in the last few days, but my posts haven't showed up on digest due to some mysterious technical difficulty -- so I am revamping the 2 posts and combining them and reposting them, so my apologies for any redundancy if you got my other emails... I had mixed feelings about leaving b/c on one hand, being part of the community during hard times can be a great thing, but I was feeling so completely overwhelmed by life, that I just didn't see how I could possibly keep up with it. There are many of you who wrote really nice things to me in the immediate aftermath, and many of those never got a response from me -- I apologize for not writing back, please know that I deeply appreciated receiving notes from you. I'm a lame correspondent as it is, and I was just a total zombie for months. I recently visited Alison (thanks again, Alison!) in Utah for a week, and we traipsed around the desert, and man, was that ever exactly what I needed. I'm finally waking up and feeling human again. I'm so excited that Bob Muller, my Ganja Line compadre, is coming to town. Bob, if you trumpet like an elephant, I promise to cackle maniacally, just like a good rastah. So, where's the party? :-) I'm getting excited about JoniFest! Especially so because by the time it rolls around, I will have pre-release rough mix CDs available to sell to all of you -- and I'm prepared to twist some arms! :-D No, seriously, I am working on my first full-length CD project now, and I am totally psyched, dude! It will be a mix of full band arranged songs and spare, acoustic songs. I've got the wonderful David Pilgrim on bass (a Barbados-born reggae/R&B man who would put our Ganja Line to shame), the amazing James Fernandez Yarish (of the David Pilgrim Band) on electric guitar, and hip groove master Bill Dobrow on drums. So, if I suck, at least the band won't! :-D Anyway, the CD (called "Overripeness") will be released in the fall, but I'll have some homegrown CDs available at the Fest. Hey, are any of you web designers? I'm a graphic designer and have had this notion that I must do everything myself, but my web experience is limited to one Dreamweaver class over a year ago... and I've realized it's time for me to delegate. So, if any of you can give me some leads on a reasonably priced website design/maintenance thingy, it would be much appreciated. I've already purchased my domain name (kayashley.com), but haven't taken action beyond that... The other email that didn't seem to make it through (though Kakki responded to me personally -- so perhaps people who get every email received it, but not those on digest??? ANYWAY...) was my contribution to the "is early Joni more melodic debate," which may be hopelessly irrelevant now; but for posterity's sake, here is my 2 cents' worth of musical analysis: I don't pretend to have the musical background of David Lahm, whose musical prowess I have witnessed and delighted in first hand; and I'm sure that despite my musical training, there are people involved in the debate who are more advanced than I... but I have to object to the objections to Joni's statement about her later work being more melodic and more harmonically complex. For me, the major distinguishing characteristic between her "early" and "later" work (for me, the sea change begins to occur with C&S/HOSL, and is firmly in place by Hejira) is that her early work has the overt, overarching melodic lines one would associate with European music, particularly 19th century art songs, as well as the American "folk" sensibility; and that her later work deals more with internal melody, or internal tensions -- internal dissonances and internal resolutions -- which is, in fact, much more African than her earlier work. Her earlier work could only be described as African in her occasional use of bluesy bent notes, etc. -- a superficial African attribute (though her early use of the open G tuning could arguably be blues.) The end result is that we may hear in her later work an increase in "texture," but in my view, "texture" is code for more complex melodic structures. The prevalence of major and minor seconds, both in the tunings themselves and in her chords, as well as in her melodies and harmonies increases drastically; the result is more complex colorations and thus more complex emotional response, despite the comparative reduction in "vertically" challenging melodies. I would argue that people consider her later work less melodic because they focus on the relative absence of soaring melodies of the "Song to a Seagull" ilk; in addition, the emotional complexity of her structures can produce subconscious ambivalence or even confusion, but this is only because we are not used to having our ears taxed in that way. A quick listen to some key traditions in world music will illustrate how comparatively des! titute th aural palette is, apart from true blues & jazz (this comparative destitution can largely be blamed on the dominance of equal tempered tuning systems adopted in the 18th and 19th centuries, and western music's consequent abandonment of just intonation); and to me, one of her great triumphs in music is helping to create an increased tolerance and appreciation of dissonance and complex colors in western POP music (obviously these characteristics are encouraged in Jazz, but Jazz is much less accessible for most people.) We all know that she should be more openly celebrated than she is (if I have to watch Dylan get worshipped for caterwauling nonsense on one more televised awards ceremony, I will pull out my hair), but I think that we are not clear on WHY. Yes, she is a brilliant poet and a brilliant composer; she has sung the soundtrack to our lives; and she has always been ahead of her time; but I think that the actual, core reasons WHY she is ahead of her time are not clearly understood. My contention is that she HAS become more melodically complex with time, and that it is her evolving harmonic and melodic complexity that is her major contribution and her legacy -- not her confessional lyrics, nor her "female" point of view. I think my contention is borne out by the number of "musician's musicians" who have tremendous influence and who also name her as a major influence: Sting, Prince, Peter Gabriel, Michael Hedges, and yes, even Jimmy Page, among many others; these are all artists who have produced sonically complex and innovative work, and guess what: they're men! I think Joni's influence is far deeper, more far reaching and far more profound than critics like the ones at Rolling Stone and Entertainment Weekly, etc., would ever guess. Joni was right to disdain the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame award, because those people DON'T get it; they think coquettish, more precious-than-thou Jewel and the whole Lilith Fair phenomenon is the only evidence of her legacy -- and they would never want to be perceive! d as bein " and miss a bandwagon, no matter what the bandwagon is. Thankfully those savvy Swedes get it, though, and gave her a truly meaningful award with the Polar Music Prize. Glad to be back! :-) Kay Ashley P.S. Thanks, Les!! :-) - -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:43:32 -0700 From: shane Subject: guitar, cool drawing of eyes and signed by joni for those of you who need a new guitar, ebay is now selling for a charity - a yamaha acoustic guitar with a cool drawing by joni of two big eyes, one open - one closed (winking!) and then signed by joni herself and dated 2001...pretty good price so far.... only 3 days left. the link is: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=860405752 shane www.angelfire.com/art/cactussong cd now available, inquire at cactussong@shaw.ca ************************************** you sang for me like the seagulls in their homeless liberty just floating on the dayspring in their sighing daydreams... - -from 'sandefjord' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:56:07 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Hello again! and more on "Is early Joni More Melodic?" Kay, I saw your "Is early Joni More Melodic?" post but didn't see the first one. Anyway, it sincerely warms my heart to see you back here! Plans for Saturday night are still pending, but we'll definitely pull something together and I'm psyched to be seeing you. And yes, I'll make my famous elephant noise anywhere to hear your precious laughter... <> Well, there's no chance of you being sucky, Kay...can't wait to hear this CD. Your set at last year's fest was a definite highlight (and no, I'm not referring to the Ganja Line set!);~) Bob NP: Keb Mo, "I Was Wrong" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:48:03 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: belated... birthday wishes to walt- hope it was a wonderful one for you! congratulations to colin- so glad to hear you are becoming famous! thanks to rev vince- for both your humorous & insightful posts! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:48:04 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: fiction or nonfiction? >>Is there a definitive source for this? Has Joni mentioned in interviews that particular songs are based on real people and experiences? If not, how can we be sure they are 'true', or at the very least, not composites of several events/persons? Anyone have opinions/comments on this?<< I do! I find this to be a fascinating subject. Ultimately, no one but Joni can say what or who her songs are really about & I don't know if she ever has said so publicly. As a songwriter I would say that it is entirely possible that some of her characters are composites. That happens often in the process because as most songwriters can attest, the song is the ultimate authority & often a songwriter will choose what is true on a deeper level than what is factual in order to make the song work. On the other hand, I have had the experience of writing a song about something that I later found out was really about something else (after many people had given me their interpretation) that was deeper & closer to me than I had consciously recognized. Songs can work on several levels that way. The reason I love the discussions about who the song might be about is that for me, it deepens my appreciation of her artistry. Its not about the gossip factor. We had this discussion awhile ago, but for an example, take the song The Midway. I've always loved that song but never thought about who it might be about. Maybe just some carnival guy. However, when a friend told me who the song was allegedly about, it really fit...many of the metaphors fit & were like hints of who it was about...& it just made her all the more amazing to me as a songwriter. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:47:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Tyler Hewitt Subject: RE: fiction or nonfiction? NJC Mary, What you wrote describes the creative process so well. I make work all of the time that isn't overtly autobiographical, yet resonates with events in my life, or what I happen to be reading or listening to when I make a piece, etc. I can understand Joni revealing her 'source material' sometimes and leaving the listener to figure it out other times. I do the same thing. It's been my experience that once you speak about one work as bering autobiographical, people asume they all are (which again, might be true to an extent). I tend to speak about major themes in my work, but leave the nuances for people to figure out for themselves. I think the other thing that inspired my question about truth vs. fiction is that I've been listening to Elvis Costello a bit lately. Whenever he talks about one of his songs, he seems to be describing a charecter, or even a scene from an imaginary novel or play. This makes me assume that the majority of his songs are fictional, whichactually makes me feel better about Elvis C, as a person. When Painted From Memory, his excellant collaboration with Burt Bachrach came out a couple of years ago, my partner was listening to it and commented "I'm glad I'm not in a relationship with Elvis Costello!" - --- "Mary E. Pitassi" wrote: > I don't doubt for a moment that Joni is capable of > writing "fictional" songs, or at the very least, > basing her work on composites in her life. And I'm > sure she's done both. But it also seems to me that > an artist's own life can make him or her more > sensitive to certain nuances or issues, so that > his/her work may end up having a distinct > autobiographical slant to it, even if no such thing > was intended. It's all a matter of the prism > through which one sees the world. Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 14:52:2 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: FW: WARNING!!! tasteless joke from the human highway list (njc) > Subject: HH: What did I say to the Priest at the beach? > > What did I say to the Priest at the beach? > Excuse me Father,but you're in my son. > > _________ - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:4:7 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: I guess this qualifies as more bad news NJC I'm finding that it is in difficult times that one can find the most strength. Anne, you never cease to be a huge inspiration to me. I was practicing songs for the upcoming show and remember this song that I played for Anne under a streetlight two years ago. I wrote it for a friend who survived a serious accident and was in a coma for several months, but almost completely recovered. It stands out to me right now. It is called "Requiem". Thanks for all of the good vibes that have been sent to me, both now and in the past few weeks. "We will get by, We will get by, We will get by, We will survive." Robert Hunter "Touch of Grey" Requiem Shadows cry for the morning, We build our fires at night. Looking for salvation, From the unfriendly hands of fate. Our eyes dance with the flaming tongues, As we sit so still. And we long to shine so brilliantly, For a moment, for a day. Ah...........(chanting in Indian fashion) Sometimes we make it to the other side, We write our own passion play. But the ending is not always clear, And the journey goes ever on. Sad eyes sleeping in a quiet place, Underneath a darker sun. Waiting for a miracle, A chance to live again. Ah.......... A thousand memories stir your waking voice, Once you came upon a million suns. And you learned to speak in ancient tongues, But found a language all your own. Still the mystery moves you gently, Of how this life came to be. The dusk it solemnly approaches, And you know you must be on your way. (c) 1996 Victor Johnson - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 21:17:46 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: I guess this qualifies as more bad news NJC > since you've been so > incredibly supportive to me. and we will continue to be so. lots of love and light your way colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:21:27 -0400 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Bad news(njc) I've been in this boat, Victor and it really shits. You gave yourself the best advice. "I'm not going to let this lady fuck up my life." Perseverance! Best always, Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Victor Johnson Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:59 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Bad news(njc) I showed up to work this morning and was told, pretty abruptly, that I was being let go because "it wasn't working out." This really pisses me off because from the beginning I have been busting my ass and have been completely committed, despite being brought into a situation that was really disorganized and somewhat dysfunctional. I feel like I have been used and discarded, and have been given virtually no compensation (she handed me an enveloped with $100 dollars that is a little more than one days work.) I even went out of my way to tell all my friends in Atlanta about an upcoming arts festival this weekend that they're supposed to have a booth at, and was trying very hard to promote it to anyone I could think of. Meanwhile, my so called "employer" is looking at a state of the art Mercedez van, that she plans on purchasing next week. Maybe this is a blessing. I'm probably better off not working for this lady who seems rather selfish and manipulative. I got completely fed up there one day the other week but I told myself I'd reserve my frustrations and make the best of the situation but I guess I won't have a chance now. I'm very happy here and absolutely do not want to move again. This just completely caught me by surprise though. I was putting all my effort into this place and now I have to once again find some employment. I was going to start focusing on putting a dead/or neil young cover band together and start seriously working on recording a new record and I'm still going to dammit. I'm not going to let this lady fuck up my life. still in shock,Victor. --- Victor Johnson--- waytoblu@mindspring.com"Roses wait for the springtime,They sleep beneath the ground.They hear March winds a callin'For the spring to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:23:20 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: fiction or nonfiction? kate@katebennett.com writes: << The Midway <> when a friend told me who the song was allegedly about, it really fit... >> OK, I'm not above gossip . . . Who is it about, Kate? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:29:12 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: fiction or nonfiction? > << The Midway <> when a friend told me who the song was allegedly > about, it really fit... >> > > OK, I'm not above gossip . . . Who is it about, Kate? Okay, if Kate won't come out and tell you, I will...its really about Jeff Bisch. He's only been pretending this whole time to be a newcomer into this whole Joni thing. Come on Jeff, confess...you're the carnival man. :~} Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #181 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?