From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #180 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, April 24 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 180 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Re: Is early joni really more melodic ? [Merk54@aol.com] RE: Priests Marrying (was: Bashing the Bishop, NJC) ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] Re: NJC, long, boring, inflammatory [colin ] Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [colin ] fiction or nonfiction? [Tyler Hewitt ] Re: Priests Marrying (was: Bashing the Bishop, NJC) [colin Subject: RE: Priests Marrying (was: Bashing the Bishop, NJC) Colin wrote, in response to Debra's post: "i am perplexed as to why you brought up the 'priests should be allowed to marry' thing. (of course they should be) Having married preists will not stop child abuse. Peodophilia is not something one does for lack of an adult to do it with.(I am sure you know that hence me being perplexed)." Colin, you're right about pedophilia, I would guess, but the effect won't be such a direct one as preventing it from occurring because priests would have now have a healthy outlet for their sexuality instead. I think the idea is that, if priests could marry, more men (and dare I say, women?) would be willing to take on the job. Consequently, the Roman Catholic Church would not continue to take in applicants of questionable mental and emotional stability to help fill the current, overwhelming priest shortage. Just my 2 cents, Mary P. - --Catholic, and horrified, in Madison, WI. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 07:38:36 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC, long, boring, inflammatory > but I am enraged anew every day becauuse the man I love is a fucked up > victim of clergy abuse of children, and I can see all too clearly, as I > have for years, all the ramifications of what happens when a priest > tells a boy that sex is bad, that sex is sin and evil, that Father says > let me give you a massage, let me suck your cock, you little evil child, > you seduced me, suck me, you little evil thing, it is your fault, I am a > man of God and you damned little child corrupted me with your beauty, > damn you to hell, and just wait until I get my hands on you after the > next mass... > Unfortunately, this is what happens to victims of abuse-they are blamed - -made to feel it is their fault. because it happens in childhood, the feeling of badness never really goes away, the feeling or responsibilty, of shame, is always there and it takes continuous effort to counteract it. It rears it's head in even the most ordinary of everyday situations. To give you a silly example, but one that brings it all back: I recently paid a lot of money for a new machine. It didn't work as it should-it was faulty. I returned it, fearful of the rection. I need not have worried, they replaced it. However, they replaced it with a new machine that is even more faulty than the first. Now I feel afraid. Of waht i am not sure. I have returned the machine but no one was there but a receptionist. So far I have not heard from the company. i have sent 2 faxes. I have asked that they credit my Visa for the amount I spent as I do not want a 3rd machine. I have the law on my side. yet I feel guilty. I feel bad and more so I feel afraid. Thus I send faxes and won't speak on the phone. So far no response which increases the fear. I am aware that my feelings about this are not logical. they are not adult. They are not healthy. I am trapped in the 'they are adults and treating me badly and it is my fault' syndrome. And this after years of therapy! It never goes away. However, I accept it as part of my life, as part of me. It could have been much worse. i could be dead or still in a locked ward(as I was in my late teens). And believe it or not, I go thru very similar feelings all the time with the list mail! I feel guilty eveytime I share an opinion. I feel bad just writing this. So i don't express myself clearly and come across as someone I am not. Fear and shame are always a part of the interaction. I often dread looking in my Joni box. . But I don't let it stop me. I have to live. That is the best revenge there is. Living well despite them. As for the RC church. No it is not just an American thing. We have the same things going on here. In Eire and in Wales. In fact the exact same situation as in Boston with the bishop. there are calls for a Welsh Bishop(or whatever rank he is) to resign. He KNEW a priest was abusing children. he protected him and allowed the abuse to continue. there is reason to suspect the Bishop himself was abusing. All abuse of children is about power. The affects are the same regardless of the societal positon of the adult. It is tempting to think that abuse my priests, yteachers, ect is worse. It cannot be quantified like that. The only thing that makes affects worse, is the duration. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 07:42:04 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC Lori in MD wrote: > Oh my, Colin! When I first read the subject of your post, I thought, > "Spanking the monkey?" > > Well, I guess it's related. Sort of. ; ) It emans the same thing and i was aware of that, it fitted in my mind. > > > Lori, > who personally thinks pedophiles should be shot and is willing to sign > up to do so ...... hell, I'll even bring my own gun! I understand your feelings. But his would make it far worse for children. It would force them even more to keep there secret. If they know that telling could result in the death of their abuser, they would keep quiet. And if not, or if the secret was discovered by other means, and the absuer was killed, the added guilt and shame on the child would be intolerable. Children feel enough guilt, shame and fear as it is when they report, wothout that being added to their burden. > > > ~ > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:41:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Tyler Hewitt Subject: fiction or nonfiction? All this discussion of 'pornographic watches' , especially the discusion of the priest being Leonard Cohen, got me thinking once more about something I've pondered from time t time: We are all aware I'm sure of Joni's reputation for writing confessional lyrics. But, do we know for sure that her songs are true and/or about her own life experiences? I may be way off base here, but it seems to me that Joni would be perfectly capable of writing fictional songs. A lot of discussion has centered around who a particular song is about. When I read these posts, I always think 'how do we know they are about anyone?' Is there a definitive source for this? Has Joni mentioned in interviews that particular songs are based on real people and experiences? If not, how can we be sure they are 'true', or at the very least, not composites of several events/persons? Anyone have opinions/comments on this? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 07:54:42 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Priests Marrying (was: Bashing the Bishop, NJC) > Colin, you're right about pedophilia, I would guess, but the effect won't be > such a direct one as preventing it from occurring because priests would have > now have a healthy outlet for their sexuality instead. You are right. But peodohilia is not an unhealthy 'sexaul outlet'. It is about power and shame and fear and guilt, not sex. There are many people, who are not priests, who have adult sexual relationships, who still sexually abuse chuildren. In fact most people who abuse children in this way, are parents of the children they abuse. As for all forms of abuse. The majority is committted by parents. And sociey in general, does what the RC chuch has done for years. Keeps quiet. Even adults like me, who are open about their own abuse, are hectored by people who think they should be silent about it, or ridiculed in the hope they will be silenced. Or harrassed, or any number of ways of silencing. I had a spate of mails from someone hoping to shame me into silence, which has happened here on this list to me personally so i know how it works. In my case it doesn't, and will not, work. bw colin ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #180 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?