From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #179 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, April 24 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 179 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: is early joni really more melodic [FredNow@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #177 njc [FredNow@aol.com] The Priest [Steve Dulson ] Re: The Priest [Lori in MD ] Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [Lori in MD ] Re: The Priest [Steve Dulson ] Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Judy & Joni (NJC) [Gil Lamont ] "Pornographic watch?" ["Kate Bennett" ] Bashing The Bishop NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] NJC, long, boring, inflammatory [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [now long] ["Kakki" ] Re: Judy & Joni (NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: [NortheastJonifest] Re: another member of the Sherelle fan club and Jonif... [FMYF] michelle branch (NJC) [jan gyn ] Re: [NortheastJonifest] Re: another member of the Sherelle fan club and Jonif... [AsharaProducLL] Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Joni and Judy ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: The Priest, formerly pornographic watch ["Mark or Travis" ] The Loom's Desire NJC [CHRIS TREACY ] RE: Priests ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Is early joni really more melodic ? [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Joni & Priests (njc) ["Kakki" ] Re: Bob Muller's coming to NYC on Sat. April 27 [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Cohen as "Priest" (peripheral JC) ["Kakki" ] RE: Priests ["Kate Bennett" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:46:58 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic In a message dated 4/23/02 4:00:42 AM, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: >Fred wrote: > >>I don't have any problem with her voice. And I am readily able to hear >>the underlying melodies and chords regardless of instrumentation or other >>trappings of presentation. > >I'm sure you can. But presentation can affect how I hear a song. I'm just >pondering whether a wider vocal range and more sustained vocal strength >might enhance or better fulfill the underlying melodies just like the >greater perceived depth of sound from an acoustic instrument might do the >same with any given melody in comparison to a synth instrument. No, I'm afraid the issue is at the root, the very notes ... I would have the same complaint even if played on a kazoo. I'd rather hear great notes played on a cheesy synth than mediocre notes played on a Hamburg Steinway. >>My disappointment is in the actual note choices of those melodies and >>chords. > >Yes, and that will always somewhat baffle those of us who are so attached >to her earlier chords and melodies. Well, at least she always challenges >;-) That's the problem, I'm not challenged. Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:05:39 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #177 njc Wow, a digest made up of nothing but my postings! I think that means I'd better shut up now. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:04:34 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: The Priest Bob wrote: >"The Priest" who we first meet in the airport bar. Anybody up for >talking about >THAT one? Ah, but that priest was Leonard Cohen wasn't it? He met her on the midway of the fair last year, took her to his father's house, painted her naked in the roses, and they parted in the airport bar... - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:27:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: The Priest > Ah, but that priest was Leonard Cohen wasn't it? He met her on > the midway of the fair last year, took her to his father's house, > painted her naked in the roses, and they parted in the airport bar... Are you sure, Steve? I thought they took a taxi to his mother's home ... ; ) Lori ~ Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:30:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC Oh my, Colin! When I first read the subject of your post, I thought, "Spanking the monkey?" Well, I guess it's related. Sort of. ; ) Lori, who personally thinks pedophiles should be shot and is willing to sign up to do so ...... hell, I'll even bring my own gun! ~ Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:33:42 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Re: The Priest Lori wrote: > > Ah, but that priest was Leonard Cohen wasn't it? He met her on >> the midway of the fair last year, took her to his father's house, >> painted her naked in the roses, and they parted in the airport bar... > >Are you sure, Steve? I thought they took a taxi to his mother's home ... ; ) Argh, I knew I shouldn't have done that off the top of my head. Busted! :) - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:46:11 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC Colin writes: << As for the Bishop of Boston, surely at the very least he should be jailed for aiding and abetting serious crimes? >> Colin, I have never agreed with you more. But sadly -- and disgracefully -- Cardinal Law (or Cardinal Above-the-Law, as he is called on one radio call-in show here in Boston) will never see the inside of the prison cell that, in my opinion, he deserves to be in for the rest of his life. If this fiend had been a politician, or an educator, or a police official, or anyone else who had allowed these horrific crimes against children -- numbering at least in the hundreds -- to go on and on for decades, he would have been cheerfully locked up years ago and the key would have been gleefully thrown away. It's hard to imagine that any institution could be powerful enough to protect such a monster, but the Catholic Church is that powerful, especially here in Boston. In fact, while 40 protesters called for the Cardinal's resignation outside Boston's Cathedral of the Holy Cross this past Sunday, 600 parishioners on the inside gave him a standing ovation. Tears come to my eyes when I think of how the victims must feel when they hear such news reports. What's more, many wealthy and influential local Catholics (such as Peter Lynch from Fidelity Investments, who reportedly gave $10 million to the Archdiocese of Boston last year) have remained absolutely silent on the matter. Can you believe that anyone could remain silent about the rape of children? Can you believe that people who profess to do God's work could actually cover up such despicable crimes? Well, it happened, and it is more than likely still happening throughout the world. I wish I could feel assured that this little meeting of American Cardinals with the Pope would make things better, but as long as the likes of Cardinal Law are in power, I see very little hope for change. I was not the brightest child in the world, but for some reason I saw and was repulsed by the hypocrisy of the Church from a very young age. (If my parents did nothing else right, I was lucky enough to be sent to public school, rather than parochial.) The fact is, my first confession was my last, and I managed to tune out the Church until I was a teenager and joined a Protestant youth group. I always saw very plainly that the Church had more than its share of bad men and women, but I never could have imagined -- even with my very low opinion of the Church -- that the Church would ever be complicit in the rape of hundreds, and most likely, thousands of children throughout the world. But that's not all. A local class action lawsuit recently awarded a large group of victims of priest rape about $87 million, I think it was. Now the Archdiocese of Boston is whining about how they're going to pay for all the damages, and they are asking parishioners to dig a little deeper to help defray these costs. Excuse me? I would think that in an age when van Goghs sell for $100 million, Vatican officials could find some long-forgotten art work in some out-of-the-way storage room in Rome and come up with what would amount to chump change for these victims who have suffered way more than most of us can ever imagine. And for any good Catholics out there -- and I know there are literally millions of them in the world -- if you feel offended by this post, please go back and read it again. Unless you are raping and/or covering up the abuse of children, or supporting slimeballs like Law, it's simply not about you. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:47:27 -0700 From: Gil Lamont Subject: Re: Judy & Joni (NJC) Bob: ><artist and see all the songs they have done...>> > >And after having done that, I see that I was wrong...I forgot she also >recorded "For Free" with Richard Stoltzman on piano. D'oh!! Clarinet, surely. Double D'oh!!! I'm not familiar with Stoltzman's work on piano. His clarinet playing is to be envied. Gil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:56:53 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: "Pornographic watch?" Leonard Cohen was a monk for awhile & probably took some kind of vows... >>Wasn't there a discussion a while ago that "The Priest" was about Leonard Cohen? (That was a surprise to me.) It makes the song even more interesting to think that it's not even about an actual vow-taking priest, but about someone who feels and acts as though he is, even to the point of not being able to freely "look".<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:56:59 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Bashing The Bishop NJC >>Can you believe that people who profess to do God's work could actually cover up such despicable crimes? Well, it happened, and it is more than likely still happening throughout the world.<< I have come to believe that throughout history, many people are drawn to a position in religion because they are seeking power. To me, this is similar to many who pursue a position in politics. The spiritual ego can be a very dangerous & blinding thing. I do believe there are religious & political leaders who are in it for the right reasons but that they are in the minority. How about that for a dangerous post...religion & politics in one! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:05:50 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC, long, boring, inflammatory All this discussion of priests, child abuse, pedophilia, pornographic watches, etc., and you know that I would chime in eventually. This is not a new problem. My beloved partner, with whom I am not with now, was abused by a Roman Catholic priest 45 years ago, more or less, and was raped and molested systematically, repeatedly, over a period of years, and he was one of a number of the boys in that parish who receoved the priest's attention. Pete displays every pathological symptom that follows from being abused as a priest. Tom Paciorek, sports announcer, former White Sox player, who is in his mid50s, recently went public how he was molested all those years ago, as were two of his brothers, by the same priest. Paciorek has dealth with his life in a better way than my lost partner. This is not an American problem. The prelate of Poland resigned in the last 6 weeks because, as he put it, people misunderstood the favors he was showing to young men. The best movie on the subject is "The Boys of St. Vincent" and is a Canadian film about a Canadian situation in a boarding school. This is not an issue of celibacy - although celibacy has a role, and it is not an issue of the ordination of women, for women can also be sexual predators of the young, and it is not an issue of homosexuality, and it is not a problem of heterosexuality. This is not a problem with American Roman Catholic clergy. It is a problem with Roman Catholic clergy, and it is worldwide, and I don't think most people have the scope of the size of the problem. I am not picking on Roman Catholics. Certainly there are problems with child molestation in every segment and strata of society in every generation of human history. We live in perhaps the most enlightened time period, post-Freud, for understanding the hoirrendous evil done to a child who is sexualized in violation of the normal development of sexuality in an individual. But what we have here now is a RC problem. And that has to to do with the function and structure of the RC church. There is very little, if anything, comprable to the power that is invested in the image of "Father." Any sexual abuse by any clergy is "worse" (as it were) than by other adults, or even other adults who arfe in authority positions vis a vis children, and that is because that brings in the "God" element. But the protestant pastor, the orthodox priest, the rabbi, do not have the power and authority that is invested in the role of Father. Today the pope has responded by saying that priests should be perfect. Wrong, pope. Wrong again. No human being is perfect. We are, as is said in the Lutheran liturgy, echoed in all protestant liturigies in some way shape or form, all of us sin bondage to sin, there is none of perfect, nor can we ever be. The expectations of protestant clergy can be awfully high and unrealistic, but we have never been weighed down with the burdens that have been set upon RC clergy persons. In all of the verbiage coming from the archbishops and cardinals about how they have so criminally handled these situations, note that they are saying, mea culpa, we will no longer handle this as a moral failing but as a psychological matter. Gees, these dudes will never get it. It is not a moral failure, so that one can be told, don't do it again, which they were told, and they did it again; treating this as a moral failure means that by one's own efforts one can pray enough or try hard enough and overcome one's moral weaknesses. Bullshit! And because it is a so-called moral failue, the hierarchy could never announce that a priest had done this, because that would weaken the public assumptions of the Roman Catholic priest collectively and as individuals. It would chip away at the facade of "Father." When protestant clergy commit such acts, it is far more likely that the bishop (or superintendent or conferance minister or by whatever terminology) will act, and given the absense of the secrecy of the RC heirarchy, you can bet anything that the word will spread. And if a protestant bishop (or by whatever terminology) were to merely counsel and then re-assign a child molesting clergy from one parish to another, that bishop would be ousted at the next scheduled election of bishop. Protestatnt clergy are not assigned as Roman clergy are; we get asked by the church committee that interviews, why did you leave your last parish, or why are you looking to move? Our laity talk to each other at our regular assemblies. When I was in the Lutheran church, because of our annual synod assemblies, I was known by at least one person in almost every parish in the synod. We lived our lives in a fishbowl. The UCC, in to which I am transferring, is the same way. And as a clergy person, I am prepared and willing to live myh life in a fishbowl. Not so with the Roman church. It is not a democratic body. Without reference to whether that is good or bad, it is a fact of life. There is no way that the pope will let Cardinal Law resign, because that would mean that the people made the decision by all of the protests calling for his resignation, and this pope, basically all popes, will not give in to public pressure because that would move the decision making away from the heirarchy and into the hands of the people, who would have successfully brought public pressure to bear. About 10 years ago in the local Episcipal diocese a well-known clergy was accused of sexual abuse (of adults) and the bishop got that priest out of that parish pretty damn fast since the annual diocesan assemly would have torn the bishop to shreds had the bishop not acted. Lo and behold, it turned out that the bishop himself was guilty of sexual abuse (of adults) and the presdiing bishop of the Episcopal church didn't evenneed to get on the phone with the local bishop, since the local bishop resigned rather than face public accountability by the people who elected him and entrusted him with the office of bishop. Accountability is the key. It does not occur in the Roman church because of the way it is structured. Anyone can go up to a protestant bishop (or superintendent or by whatever term) at any time and say, what the hell did you do this for? This limits us at times because sometimes our bishops are slow to act because they are covering their political ass. But it makes our bishops accountable, it makes our clergy accountable. The monthly church council meetings are about the people, not the pastor, making decisions, and the best we could do was attempt to persuade, to educate, to beg, or to answer questions about why we did what we did. Hell, every year at the annual meeting of the congregation, I had to stand there and face everyone and anyone could up any subject and I'd have to deal with it publicly. I couldn't even get divorced in private like you all; it was a congregational issue. And if my answers weren't good enough,. well, the accountability part of the meeting was always before they voted on the budget, to wit, my salary.... Whatever the psychological dimensions of sexual abuse of children, it is something that needs to be treated and treated NOW, not buried in a burearcracy that is out to preserve its own power. Look what is happening - the pope calls the cardinals to Rome to talk about to deal with this. It is all political for them. Why didn't the pope invite the victims, invite psychologists and therapists and lay people and experts and parfents who are scared? Because it is about power. And protestant or Jewish church body would have, and they have and they are, set up church wide committees with public meetings and reports made public to everyone, and the issue would be analyised and out there for all to see, and standards are set up, and reporting mechanisms... and the removal of clergy and any adult from the church who violates expectations... and as I type this, the pope is talking about the power of redemption - not treatment, but a moral issue again, and the pope is grieved because priests are supposed to emulate moral and holy lives... what bullshit, still. No clergy, no human being, can model a holy life. We can only call people to hear the Gospel and struggle together in our weaknesses to live as God has called us. This struggle to be holy, to be superman, is doomed to failure. The clergy person is not there to be some extraordinary saint-like icon that is superhuman and has none of the flaws of a human being; we are all sinful, we are all equal, none of us has the key to perfection and morality. We are called to be one of the people, with our calling we have a responsibility to teach, guide, lead, preach, struggle with our people, not because we are more holy, but probably because we are less holy - we are aware of our own weaknesses and thus aware, able to help others with theirs. It is no mistake that in the Lutheran liturgy, the pastor first confesses his/her sin before the people do - we are merely sinners as all are, redeemed as all are, with a calling to assist others in their life as a person created by God. The image of a priest as holier than the people has got to be destroyed before there will ever be ways to resolve these things in the Roman catholic church, and that won't happen as long as the hierarchy has so much invested in its power stemming from its supposed holiness. Power. Why is it that the ordination of women is so resisted? I remember the days when women were first ordained in the Lutheran church - - we lost our good old boys club, no doubt about it, it opened up our clergy to whole new ways of relating, and power was lost by some people and suddenly given to a whole new group of people - and it was good, and needful, and long overdue. Women will never be ordained in a church that values hierarchy (and that includes the orthodox) not for any theological reason or Biblical reason but because it would open up the power structures and those with the power will not let go. (The Epsicopalians are unique here, not quite so hiearchiacal as they seem, the people have a striong and clear voice in the Epsicopal church, but there are still rearguard actions against womenm going on in some segements in the world wide Anglican community.) In the independent catholic (not Roman) body in which I am now a bishop, I am leaving it to return to the protestant church through the UCC because I am sick and tired of these damned power struggles within this world. It was supposed to ecumenical, but the Roman ways die hard for some, people resisted the annual assemblies of the church, resisted yielding any of their supposed powers as bishop to the vote of the people, resisted being held accountable by laity, by letting others into the decision making process, resisted the making of every church document public -- so i am going back into the protestant world where I may live in a fishbowl and struggle with that, but where I am merely a pastor, a person with a calling, and not the center of power in the congregation. Let me add two final thoughts. All this porographic watch stuff - it is not easy being sexual, being a clergy person. This post is too long already, but when people discover that one is clergy, they assume that you are asexual or antisexual. We ujsed to seminary, when going to a party, never tell them you go to seminary, call it grad school, or you will never get a date. People make such assumptions about us -- I am so tired of having people say, "can't tell that joke with a pastor around!" And if I tell that same joke, I am often assumed to be a scum pastor, or not quite religious enough, because I know jokes like that. I have toi work a lot harder to be one of the gang than a lay person, in many situations. There is a young man of 23 I know, the kid is so beautiful, he is very sexually desireable, but if I say that out loud, people don't think it is a normal human reaction of a normal human being (who is gay) to someone who is hot - it is perceived as a moral failing on my part. (Note: I would never touch the guy, but damn is he hot, and I am merely observing the beauty of God's creation when I say that.) Now it is tricky - because if that young man were to come to worship at my congregation, that puts our relationship (now, as friends) into a new rubric. There is a different way that one must relate to a member of the parish, or to any person to whom one might be called to do ministry, than one does to any old person. The sexual dynamic gets very difficult in the clergy world. In my straight days, it was risky to even date my future wife because some people assumed that I was using my role as her pastor in the midst of her first divorce to take advantage of her. Now in my gay days, I am ever more aware of that factor. I do know more about peoples lives because I am their pastor, and that knowledge could be useful in a seduction effort, and there must be clear lines that the pastor/parishoner relationship is not one where sexual action will result -- must never result because that is an inexcusable violation of the trust that must exist in the pastor-parishoner relationship - thus I am left to date (if I could get a date, which I can't these days, but that is its own story) people who are outside of the church to any extent to which I relate to the church - in other words, people who do not share my religious values, or at least, belong to some other church body. What I need is some nice attractive 40 something year old who does not have hangups about clergy and is probably not all that religious since many religious people cannot function easily with clergy with all of the religious person's saint-God-pastor complexes... so I need a Jewish guy, an agnostic, or someolne who will not be freaked out that the pastor is sexual, but is not a part of any ministry that I wll do. This is a problem, as yoiu may imagine. That is why protestant p;astors have affairs with the church organist and so many straight Roman clergy married nuns. The pool of available people there is not that large, and so if one fishes close to shore... ... and that is why sexual abuse of children must never be allowed, because since the pool of potential sexual parteners is limited, since the kids are there and are vulnerable in ways adults are not... and the kids are there.... I can understand much, but sexual abuse of children, cardinal law and all the others should be shot, if I weren't a pacifist, but they must be thrown out of office but the Roman church won't allow that, has no mechaisms for that, but I am enraged anew every day becauuse the man I love is a fucked up victim of clergy abuse of children, and I can see all too clearly, as I have for years, all the ramifications of what happens when a priest tells a boy that sex is bad, that sex is sin and evil, that Father says let me give you a massage, let me suck your cock, you little evil child, you seduced me, suck me, you little evil thing, it is your fault, I am a man of God and you damned little child corrupted me with your beauty, damn you to hell, and just wait until I get my hands on you after the next mass... oh, I have lived with what happens to the kid that that happens to. Cardinal Law, the pope, all of those bishops, damn you to hell for letting those perverts run free with the children, assigning them from one parish to another, having them repent and be more holy instead of getting them treatment, putting them back in contact with more children rather than separating them from where they could do harm... and my last note. I apologise for poor typing. I know the issue too damned well to type this as well as I should, I am too emotional about this right now, and I have some inflamed tooth that is coming out via surgery later this week and the pain is so intense from that that I cannot see straight, and I am so emotionally angry over the fact that those in power will stay in power and until that power is broken, there will be many more victims... it is so ironic to sign this as always (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:30:58 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [now long] Re: Debra's and Murphy's comments - I say a loud AMEN! Though this is a painful time in the church I am happy as hell that some of the house is being cleaned out. Every Catholic I know feels vehemently the same and also thinks that it is beyond criminal what has been tolerated and covered up. The only halfway sympathetic reaction I've heard came from a Protestant friend who worried about the potential of this turning into a witch-hunt. I don't want to see that happen, either, because there are many good and honorable priests in the world (as in any group of people) who should not all be painted with the same superficial brush. Cardinal Law refusing to step down absolutely reeks and sickens me. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:21:37 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Judy & Joni (NJC) <> Well, you see, he takes the clarinet & bangs on the piano keys with it, and then...um, I guess I should just shut up now...TRIPLE D'oh!! Bob NP: Sheryl Crow, "Soak Up The Sun" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:27:24 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] Re: another member of the Sherelle fan club and Jonif... Wow!!!! I just got Sherelle's CD, and as most of you have already read the wonderful posts.......I just have to say a ME TOO!!!!! Sherelle, thanks so much for sending me your CD. You have a fantastic voice, and we're gonna get you to Jonifest! Count me in Ashara!!! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:37:38 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: michelle branch (NJC) What do youse guys think of Michelle Branch? I've heard a few songs that I liked. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:38:18 EDT From: AsharaProducLLC@aol.com Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] Re: another member of the Sherelle fan club and Jonif... In a message dated 4/23/2002 7:30:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fmyfl@aol.com writes: > Wow!!!! I just got Sherelle's CD, and as most of you have already read the > wonderful posts.......I just have to say a ME TOO!!!!! Sherelle, thanks so > > much for sending me your CD. You have a fantastic voice, and we're gonna > get > you to Jonifest! > > Count me in Ashara!!! > Thanks so much, Jimmy, and thanks to everyone that has offered to donate towards Sherelle's passage to Jonifest. Also, I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't singling Sherelle out as a "favorite" over others trying to get to Jonifest. Lieve's idea really was for those that have received Sherelle's generous offer of her CD, and are enjoying it, to give her some compensation for her generosity. (Us New Agers might call it an energy exchange.) :-) There, of course is a regular scholarship/work study fund in place to help *anyone* that is in financial need get to Jonifest. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:25:59 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" > < watch", or keeping watch in the night.>> > > This is really a great little discussion...now I'm more inclined to side with this opinion. I've never heard of a "pornographic watch" anyway, except maybe for a pocket watch which opens up to expose some dirty picture or something. Surely a priest would not wear something (even a wrist watch) that is openly pornographic. I've never actually seen or heard of a pornographic watch either but I don't think it's important whether or not there actually is such a thing. I think the simile Joni is trying to draw is of someone who says they are immune to wanting something but constantly takes covert glances at and secretly covets that something. A wristwatch is not something you can see on another person very easily unless you come up close to it. And if it's hidden by a sleeve it can't be seen at all. So Joni's 'priest' or supposed celibate takes furtive looks at this carnal image on his watch and probably gets a chubby from it. The parallel is to the artist who claims that fame & fortune is of no interest and not the least desirable, that the art is all that matters & the money & notice would corrupt that art. But secretly this artist wants the wealth and the adulation. He or she may live in an attic & wear second hand clothes but the desire is still there and occasionally visible in their expression or attitude. Anyway that's what I think & that is what I said! Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:51:22 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "Pornographic watch?" > > to mean that > > he isn't wearing his clerical collar, > > The first Joni lyric that really intrigued me was: "He was wearing his > father's tie." Did he actually borrow his biological father's tie that > morning? Or is she referring to the Roman collar, his God as Father > "tie", that priests wear? It could be either I think. > > Wasn't there a discussion a while ago that "The Priest" was about > Leonard Cohen? (That was a surprise to me.) I think it was Pat 'Sire of Sorrow' who posted about this song and Leonard Cohen. Part of the connection I believe was in the name 'Cohen' which means 'member of the Jewish priestly class descended from Aaron' according to Random House Webster's College Dictionary. There was also some connection to 'his father's tie'. Or maybe that was 'your father's gun' from 'Rainy Night House.' I think if Joni meant the subject of this song to be a Roman Catholic priest she would not have chosen the word 'tie' as opposed to 'collar'. A RC priest's collar bears little or no resemblance to a tie, imo. Cohen's music often combines religion and sexuality. There is a Cohen song on Judy Collins' album 'Wildflowers' called 'Priests' that someone else made mention of in connection to Joni: And who will write love songs for you When I am lord at last? And your body is the little highway shrine That all my priests have passed That all my priests have passed My priests they will put flowers there They will kneel before the glass But they'll wear away your little window, love They will trample on the grass They will trample on the grass And who will shoot the arrows That men will follow through your grace? When I am lord of memories And all your armor has turned to lace And all your armor has turned to lace The simple life of heroes The twisted lives of saints They just confuse the sunny calendar With their red and golden paint With their red and golden paint And all of you have seen the dance That God has kept from me But He has seen me watching you When all your minds were free When all your minds were free And who will write love songs for you When I am lord at last? And your body is the little highway shrine That all my priests have passed That all my priests have passed My priests they will put flowers there They will stand before the glass But they'll wear away your little window, love They will trample on the grass They will trample on the grass So make of that what you will! (And then there's 'Sisters of Mercy' but I won't go into that one now.) Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:58:54 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni and Judy Joni related a story of Judy leaving her on the stoop waiting > to be picked up for the Newport Jazz fest back in the day. Judy never picked > up Joni, and then called her from the fest to tell her about it. Joni was > clearly miffed and displayed some of the Scorpionic sting in this article, > but my recollection is very sketchy. Does anyone know about this story? Are > Joni and Judy friendly these days? I've read this story too and kind of held it against Judy in the same way I held Rickie Lee's remarks about Joni against her for a long time. Very silly of me in retrospect but at one time anybody who spoke or did anything against Joni was unworthy of my notice. Hopefully I have learned a thing or two and grown a tad bit since those days;-) As far as I know Joni & Judy are on good terms these days. Somebody on the list actually had an email from Judy expressing her admiration and respect for Joni. Mark E in Seattle np: Albatross - Judy Collins (I love this song) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:00:46 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The Priest, formerly pornographic watch > PS>anyone familiar with the RIckie Lee jones tune, The Altar Boy? Yes! As a matter of fact the Cohen song I posted the lyrics to reminds me of 'Altar Boy'. Most people aren't real crazy about Rickie Lee's 'Traffic From Paradise' but I love it. 'Stuart's Coat' is probably my favorite Rickie Lee Jones song. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:16:30 -0400 From: Gary Zack Subject: Re: Priests That's interesting Kate, I thought I did read something to that effect about Cohen, or at least he spent some time at a monastery? The first time I ever heard "The Priest" the line, "He was wearing his father's tie" jumped out at me. It sounded at the time to me that the priest was purposely going "incognito" and was "wearing his father's tie" since he either didn't have one of his own, and didn't want to be identified as a priest, so he borrowed one of his dad's or perhaps the tie had belonged to his deceased father and he was in possession of it. At the time the song was written Vatican II had just started spinning, and many priests still wore clerical garb in public as the rule. Our Joni is very clever, she could well have meant Cohen to represent the priest; and at the same time interwove a real or fictitious priest as part of the song. There are a number of religious references in that song, "he looked as only a priest can through", "the sermons the hymns and valentines", (off the top of my head) so it seems like he was a real/fictitious priest, with perhaps a bit of Cohen mixed in? Thoughts anyone? Then there is the Cohen song, "Priests." I really like this discussion too...but then...I've been staying with a priest who took me in when I needed a place to stay, (a great guy too) so I guess I get carried away with the religious stuff. I worked for a religious organization for 17 years ;-) but recently quit to make my move to Los Angeles. I could use some prayers for this upcoming personal hejira.... Best to all! Gary Kate Bennett wrote: > > Leonard Cohen was a monk for awhile & probably took some kind of vows... > > >>Wasn't there a discussion a while ago that "The Priest" was about > Leonard Cohen? (That was a surprise to me.) It makes the song even more > interesting to think that it's not even about an actual vow-taking > priest, but about someone who feels and acts as though he is, even to > the point of not being able to freely "look".<< > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > sponsored by Polysonics > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:18:41 -0700 (PDT) From: CHRIS TREACY Subject: The Loom's Desire NJC This may be old news, but... The new Laura Nyro dbl live CD set, entitled "The Loom's Desire" is being released on May 7th. The show was recorded during the holidays, 1994, at The Bottom Line. Cover art looks fantastic.... - -Chris Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:05:59 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Priests speaking of leonard cohen, his son adam cohen is performing in santa barbara saturday night...has anyone heard him? of course i will give you all a report! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:55:12 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Is early joni really more melodic ? I have been following this thread with much interest. All in all, I feel that there is less disagreement over the content of what is being said than over the terms being used to say it. First of all, there is the definition of "early Joni". One could measure this in years - or, as I would prefer - in units of work product released. I tend to think of her work in groups of 3. On that basis, I consider Joni's first 3 albums to be "early early" Joni, and her next 3 (Blue, FTR and C&S) to be "late early" Joni ( clearly there is a considerable difference between these two triads). Still, this "early" work was marked by extraordinary, accessible (albeit haunting, and non-trivial) melodies. If you do not think so, just sing them out loud, without help. I bet you can. The chord structures were quite classical - Joni relied primarily on extra tones (2nds, 4ths, 6ths, 7ths, 9ths and non-tonic base notes) to add color and provide richness. The rhythms were relatively simple and straigtforward. If you do not think so, try playing them on the guitar or the piano. I bet you can (even I can, and I assure Fred that I am strictly an amateur where music is concerned). The accompaniment was tasteful and not saccharine, but not inaccessibly complex to the ear, either. So, those who say that this period was melodic are right, and those who say it was less complex are also right, IMO. I for one was in love with this work when it came out. Early middle Joni would be the next three albums. HOSL, Hejira and DJRD were on a totally different plateau from the prior 3 albums (not to mention the first 3). The melodies were, on balance, less accessible - if you do not think so, try to sing them without accompaniment. Take Coyote, for instance. Both the notes and the rhythms of the melody are more complex. Is this song melodic ? Certainly ! But it is clearly more complex in its structure than her earliest work. Rhythm is critical to music - it cannot be disregarded in the analysis. And the notes of the melody do not soar over and around the chords, they move semi-anchored inside a relatively narrow range of tones (this does not make them easier to sing), allowing the chords and accompaniment to move around them and add balance to the overall composition. Cotton Avenue, DJRD, Silky Veils. That said, she lost me, temporarily - and I was a big fan. I knew in my head that she was going someplace higher, but I could not feel it, and I left for a long time. It is clear that the top (real) musicians and critics did not feel this way, but the lesser ones certainly did not receive and review these records as well or as highly as they refer to them now. She lost some of them, too. Late middle Joni sort of never happened, IMO. Mingus interrupted it, broke its stride. (Is it possible that the late middle period was slated to be the most exquisite, and that somehow she (and we) were robbed of its fulfillment ?) And when she emerged from Mingus, perhaps a bit spent from the energy of going off in a direction that she was not necessarily prepared (or perhaps perfectly suited) for, I think she was floundering, wondering which direction to reestablish. The direction seems to have come from her new marriage and affiliation with Larry Klein and his musical group. But I would call the 80's albums "early late" Joni. I think the WTRF suffers a bit from the lack of torment that seemed to inspire so much of her earlier work. And I am sad for the synthetic quality of DED - which was also highly impersonal compared to her earlier work lyrically. I think CMIAR is underrated - she was beginning to find herself in many ways, and was coming out of her "lost seas". This brings us to the 90's, and what I would call "late late" joni. Here, there is a return to more accessible melodies. NRH is perhaps too simple in this respect, but she does so much more with the vocal accompaniments and other colorations than she did in her earliest work that NRH is, for me, a comforting return to the womb. Sing the songs a cappella - I bet you can. Turbulent Indigo is a very fine album, with much good work - some simple and accessible, some quite complex and beautiful. I find TTT to be a bit too homogeneous in texture, rhythm and tempo for my taste - both it and BSN are, in that sense, more "mood" collections. What really differentiates her early work from her later work, to me, is that her early work features an unbelievably strong connection between the music and the lyrics that is not captured with anything like that consistency in her later work. This uncanny, seamless connection so permeated her earlier work that I still nearly tear my hair out in disbelief when I hear it. It is not as prevalent any more, I am afraid. A good example of my thinking here is Sire of Sorrow - a song each of whose components I am crazy about, but whose union seems off to me. Not wildly out of place, but disappointing. The music is brilliant but lacks sufficient anguish to complement the lyrics. Magdalene Laundries is another. That does not mean that there are not songs where she still captures this - Sex Kills is one, Lakota, My Secret Place, The Tea Leaf Prophecy, Yvette in English, Face Lift. These songs are not stronger lyrically or musically than the previous two (arguably less so), but they are better connected, and the work is better art, IMO. Just not as consistent as earlier, this connection of lyric and music. " But I know my needs, my sweet tumbleweed, I need more quiet times... by a river flowing, you and me, deep kisses and the sun gooooooooooing down"..... Wow. Bob S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:12:58 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni & Priests (njc) Bob wrote: >Joni's view of "Priests" is certainly not very respectful...besides this pornographic priest, we get the >priest who has impregnated Bridget in "Magdalene Laundries" and "The Priest" who we first meet in >the airport bar. Anybody up for talking about THAT one? I'll bite ;-) As a very nominal but loyal Catholic I have never once been offended by Joni's takes on the various and dubious priest characters in her songs. One of the biblical passages that has always meant the most to me is the one that says to the effect "be a respecter of no persons." To me, that means to never hold any human above anyone else and certainly not to exempt them because of their position (in my experience this as also a strong Irish cultural stance ;-) If Joni only picked out RC priests I might look askance at her, but she takes on everyone who is in a position of power and who might use their influence for ill. I love that about her and she follows in a long line of great moralists (in the best sense) in this regard. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:06:18 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Bob Muller's coming to NYC on Sat. April 27 I would add my dittos to David and Bob M and Rose et al. Let's all try to come up with an idea asap. I will try to come up with my feeble one by tomorrow - let's each try for one. Rose - is there a yes list yet ? Bob S "FWIW, I too would prefer being in a talking rather than a listening-to-music environment. What I look forward too--if my schedule permits--is being with each other." DAVID LAHM "I whole-heartedly agree, David...I assure you that I'll be more interested in talking and listening to my old & new pals, and in the midst of live music, it can be more difficult to do that as well as be very rude to the performer. I'm trying to get all my sleep in this week so I won't have to close my eyes any this weekend! :~)" Bob (Muller) From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Bob Muller's coming to NYC on Sat. April 27 "Well, where would you suggest David, since you're a native of the city?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:33:12 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Cohen as "Priest" (peripheral JC) Mark wrote: > I think it was Pat 'Sire of Sorrow' who posted about this song and Leonard > Cohen. Part of the connection I believe was in the name 'Cohen' which means > 'member of the Jewish priestly class descended from Aaron' according to > Random House Webster's College Dictionary. There was also some connection > to 'his father's tie'. Or maybe that was 'your father's gun' from 'Rainy > Night House.' I read portions of a book once that discussed Cohen's stint as a monk, but cannot recall the title. I looked over at Leonardcohen.com and in the Bio section it mentions his time at a Zen Buddhist retreat in Southern California in the early 90s which would make that phase of his life subsequent to Joni's song. However, as many have noted, he made his "saintly" allusions way back when, so I am open to the "Priest" song having some connection to him. He is a brilliant, brilliant man. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:47:27 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Priests >>That's interesting Kate, I thought I did read something to that effect about Cohen, or at least he spent some time at a monastery?<< here is an excerpt from his bio at leonardcohen.com: "Shortly after touring in support of The Future, Cohen began spending more and more time at a Zen retreat high atop Mt. Baldy in Southern California. He spent most of his time meditating, working on koans and cooking for his teacher, Sasaki Roshi. While Cohen was residing at Mt. Baldy, Leanne Ungar and Bob Metzger produced a live album, Cohen Live (1994), a collection culled from Cohens 1988 and 1993 tours. In 1999, after nearly five years at Mt. Baldy, during which time Cohen was ordained as a Zen monk and given the Dharma name of Jikan (Silent One), he came down from the mountain armed with hundreds of new poems and song lyrics." ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #179 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?