From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #178 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, April 23 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 178 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Re: is early joni really more melodic [Merk54@aol.com] Re: Re: is early joni really more melodic ["Kakki" ] Re: How does Joni choose her tunings? ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: published NJC ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] how does joni choose her band mates? [Mags N Brei ] Judy & Joni [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Judy & Joni [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Shades of Scarlet Conquering [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: Re: Judy & Joni [Reuben3rd@aol.com] Re: is early joni really more melodic ["J.David Sapp" ] EW [Gerald Notaro ] Re: "Pornographic watch?" [Gary Zack ] Re: is early joni really more melodic ["katfud@earthlink.net" ] Re: published NJC [colin ] Re: published NJC [colin ] Re: published NJC [colin ] Re: published NJC [colin ] "Pornographic watches & Priests?" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Bashing The Bishop NJC [colin ] Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" [Lori in MD ] Re: Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: published NJC [dsk ] Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" [Lori in MD ] Re: "Pornographic watch?" [dsk ] Re: published NJC [Emily Gray Tedrowe ] The Priest, formerly pornographic watch [KJHSF@aol.com] Joni and Judy [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [now long] [dsk ] Re: Joni and Melody. [johnirving ] Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [now long] [colin ] Re: Joni and Melody. [colin ] Re: published NJC [colin ] memory njc [colin ] Re: is early joni really more melodic [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 03:03:15 -0400 From: Merk54@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: is early joni really more melodic Kakki, I definitely agree with you on some of this. I think the most obvious demonstration of this would be the comparison of Joni's two versions of Man From Mars - The TTT version, and the her version from the Grace of My Heart sound track. While the TTT version is very nice, and melds beautifully with the rest of TTT, her GOMH version is a stunner. What I cant agree with is the belittling of the Nice Kitty Kitty lyric! I know everyone hates this, but for some reason, I really like it. There a wink and nod feeling to it that I find very appealing. She's asking for the Kitty to be nice to her, when she knows full well that it will strike out at her at the first opportunity. There's a taunting in it that I must admit I find kind of sexy. It's a definite love/hate relationship - she's often written about her distaste of the music business, but here, with the playful tone in her voice, I think she's almost acknowledging at least a partial love for the damn thing. Her use of the phrase Boring! after the Nice Kitty Kitty line only supports this. For all her protesting, she enjoys the conflict. Let's face it, it's served as some pretty great fodder for some pretty amazing songs. As far as TTT sounding too much the same, I've had several friends make the same complaint about Hejira and Blue, and in reality, they both do have a unique consistancy to them. For some reason, though, people are more open to the sounds of these albums. To me, it's just a matter of preference. I happen to prefer Picasso's blue period, but I still recognize the genius of his rose period. I think this is very much the same thing. Jack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 00:53:22 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Re: is early joni really more melodic Jack wrote: > What I cant agree with is the belittling of the Nice Kitty Kitty lyric! Well, I didn't mean to belittle the poor kitty! ;-) I don't hate that she wrote it that way - but maybe hate that it might turn some people off from the overall song. But then if she wrote for what other people thought, she wouldn't be Joni! > As far as TTT sounding too much the same, I've had several friends make the same complaint about >Hejira and Blue, and in reality, they both do have a unique consistancy to them. For some reason, >though, people are more open to the sounds of these albums. To me, it's just a matter of preference. Better not get me started on the beloved Hejira ;-) but TTT doesn't sound too much the same to me - I think it's a very diverse mixed bag (not in a bad way) that has enough brilliance scattered throughout in melody and lyrics to make it worthy. > I happen to prefer Picasso's blue period, but I still recognize the genius of his rose period. I think >this is very much the same thing. It is, and I'm reminded that there are a number of people here who have their favorite phases of Joni across the entire spectrum. Kakki NP: Karla Bonoff - Isn't it Always Love ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 01:11:19 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic Fred wrote: > I don't have any problem with her voice. And I am readily able to hear the > underlying melodies and chords regardless of instrumentation or other > trappings of presentation. I'm sure you can. But presentation can affect how I hear a song. I'm just pondering whether a wider vocal range and more sustained vocal strength might enhance or better fulfill the underlying melodies just like the greater perceived depth of sound from an acoustic instrument might do the same with any given melody in comparison to a synth instrument. > My disappointment is in the actual note choices of those melodies and chords. Yes, and that will always somewhat baffle those of us who are so attached to her earlier chords and melodies. Well, at least she always challenges ;-) Kakki NP: Karla Bonoff - Falling Star ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:06:03 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: How does Joni choose her tunings? >Truly, has Joni ever explained her process in choosing her open tunings? >Does the poetry lead such choices? Does she choose the tunings before she >works out the melodies, indeed even before the poem is written? Is it >system-less, and all the more wonderous for it? Any way it's done, it >works a treat. Sort of and yes. Her own words....... Things stick in my crawl and they rotate endlessly...and if I don't clear them.. like I could go mad. I write copiously and then condense. A lot of themes are very,very large and people don't like long, long, long songs and they have to be condensed down to three verses. Magdalene Laundries..... Taking the advice of my caretaker to try writing more in the daylight instead of at night. (notorious night owl) So I sat outside, in the sun, on a rock. And I tuned my guitar to the sounds of that day. Because I play in open tunings...so I tuned to the crows,seagulls,and the sonic references available. And a cheery chord progression happened. (cherry lyrics were not to be though) Usually the music comes first.. because it offers up more a challenging rhyme scheme. It also shows me where I can put my descriptive passages. Where I have to be direct,where my pockets of irony lie. You know.... it lays down restrictions which make it a harder puzzle. Which I enjoy. Open tunings are a pain in the butt. It is like a typewriter the letters move around on you.....every time you sit down to it. But it does cough up original harmonic movement. If you want original harmonic movement and are willing to like confuse your left hand completely, then go for it. Toodle the pegs until you like the chord,then search for the shapes with in it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------I don't know, I think in Joniworld 1+1 is never two and that is what keeps us coming back for more and more..... If it was two.....would we bother? OH ohooooooo my, my... when that train comes rolling by.... Bree _________________________________________________________________ >Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 07:02:05 EDT From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: published NJC In a message dated 23/04/02 05:56:04 GMT Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:29:36 +0100 > From: colin > Subject: published NJC > > I got my MK Monthly today. On the cover it says -MAN FOR ALL SEASONS-a > new menswear designer steps out. > I looked for the article wondering who it was. It was me!!! There is the > article along with a pic of one of my sweaters saying NEXT MONTH on it. > and Further along there is a pic of this months sweater with the > instructions. > I feel chuffed. > Fabulous, Colin. You should feel chuffed! Just 2 questions:- What is MK Monthly and can you buy it in the shops; and why didn't they let you know you were going to be featured? Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 06:58:27 -0500 From: Emily Gray Tedrowe Subject: published NJC colin, congratulations on your sweater in the magazine! as a new knitter, i'm really impressed. one question, though: what does "chuffed" mean? i can't tell if it's a positive emotion or not! - -- emily ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 07:17:55 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: published NJC Hey Colin!!!! Congratulations you fine talented fellow you!!! Better to read that sort of fine news than read the newspaper only to find out you have been accused of murdering some baby hamsters and their mother in a feline rage. Perhaps you could put up the article? Love and peace....Sharon Emily Gray Tedrowe wrote: > > colin, congratulations on your sweater in the magazine! > as a new knitter, i'm really impressed. > > one question, though: what does "chuffed" mean? i can't > tell if it's a positive emotion or not! > > -- emily ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 05:12:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: how does joni choose her band mates? I was wondering if anyone knows how Joni chooses her band mates? Mags... np:Hunter from Alternate Blue ===== You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:28:27 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Judy & Joni <> It was just the three songs, Tim...BUT she did two different versions of Chelsea Morning (thanks to the Judy fans out there who pointed that out to me) & also has recorded live versions of BSN. Additionally, Tom Rush tried to get her to record Urge For Going, but she wasn't interested so he did it himself. Worked out good for Tom! Bob NP: Scott Miller & The COmmonwealth, "I Made A Mess Of This Town" PS: In the "Joni Undercover" section of the JMDL, you can do a search by artist and see all the songs they have done... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:37:26 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Judy & Joni <> And after having done that, I see that I was wrong...I forgot she also recorded "For Free" with Richard Stoltzman on piano. D'oh!! Bob NP: Scott Miller, "Yes I Won't" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 06:07:42 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Shades of Scarlet Conquering I was wondering if others found the 'mix' of SoSC disturbing - like the bass is too hot or something. I've always thought it could have been engineered much better than it is. (I used to think it was just a flaw on the vinyl, but I hear the same thing on the CD.) lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:40:02 -0400 From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Judy & Joni In a message dated Tue, 23 Apr 2002 8:38:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: I always thought that there were two versions of BNS. (the vocals on the Colors of the Day and Wildflowers albums are different, aren't they?) Maybe its just two different mixes. Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:52:25 -0500 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic <. All I'm dealing with are the musical reasons why her later work doesn't for me.> enough said, i'm movin' on peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 07:58:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: "Pornographic watch?" Anne wrote: > I always thought this was what Joni meant too - because > she also says "sure, it's stricken from his uniform" so > it a watch he would wear. I'm still hung up on a figurative interpretation. His "uniform" -- the priest's frock -- suggests moral virtue. He APPEARS to be above his longings, but he "can't get it out of his eyes." That look ... you know the one. Lori in MD ~ Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:01:27 -0500 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: EW Great photo of Joni and a rave review of the box set of The Last Waltz in Entertainment Weekly, 4/19/02. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:12:47 -0400 From: Gary Zack Subject: Re: "Pornographic watch?" Yes Lori, I agree. The "pornographic watch" is the priest being able to look but not touch (looking and longing on the sly) and I always took "sure it's stricken from your uniform, but you can't get it out of your eyes" to mean that he isn't wearing his clerical collar, as most priests don't these days in public, so there is no way to tell he is a priest, but in his heart he knows the vocation he's chosen, still he can't stop from sneaking occasional looks at the carnal attractions before him. It's like the phrase "night watch", or keeping watch in the night. I always felt that Joni used it as a description of the priest's fantasies, not a literal "watch" or "wristwatch." Gary Lori in MD wrote: > > Anne wrote: > > > I always thought this was what Joni meant too - because > > she also says "sure, it's stricken from his uniform" so > > it a watch he would wear. > > I'm still hung up on a figurative interpretation. His "uniform" -- the priest's frock -- suggests moral virtue. He APPEARS to be above his longings, but he "can't get it out of his eyes." That look ... you know the one. > > Lori > in MD > > ~ > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:04:06 -0400 From: "katfud@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic I don't pretend to have the musical background of David Lahm, whose musical prowess I have witnessed and delighted in first hand; and I'm sure that despite my musical training, there are many here who are more advanced than I... but I have to object to the objections to Joni's statement about her later work being more melodic and more harmonically complex. For me, the major distinguishing characteristic between her "early" and "later" work (for me, the sea change begins to occur with C&S/HOSL, and is firmly in place by Hejira) is that her early work has the overt, overarching melodic lines one would associate with European music, particularly 19th century art songs, as well as the American "folk" sensibility; and that her later work deals more with internal melody: internal tensions, internal dissonances and internal resolutions -- which is, in fact, much more African than her earlier work (her earlier work could only be described as African in her occasional use of bluesy bent notes, etc. -- a superficial African attribute.) The end result is that we may hear in her later work an increase in "texture," but in my view, "texture" is code for more complex melodic structures. The prevalence of major and minor seconds, both in her tunings, in her chords and in her melodies increases drastically; the result is more complex colorations and more complex emotional response, despite the comparative reduction in "vertically" challenging melodies. I would argue that people consider her later work less melodic because they focus on the relative absence of soaring melodies of the "Song to a Seagull" ilk; in addition, the emotional complexity of her structures produces subconscious ambivalence or even confusion, but this is only because we are not used to having our ears taxed in that way. A quick listen to some key traditions in world music will illustrate how comparatively destitute the western aural palette is, apart from true blues & jazz (this comparative destitution can largely be blamed on the dominance of! equal te ning systems adopted in the 18th and 19th centuries, and western music's consequent abandonment of just intonation); and to me, one of her great triumphs in music is helping to create an increased tolerance and appreciation of dissonance and complex colors in western pop music. We all know that she should be more openly celebrated than she is (if I have to watch Dylan get worshipped for caterwauling nonsense on one more televised awards ceremony, I will pull out my hair), but I think that we are not clear on WHY. Yes, she is a brilliant poet and a brilliant composer; she has sung the soundtrack to our lives; and she has always been ahead of her time; but I think that the actual, core reasons WHY she is ahead of her time are not clearly understood. My contention is that she HAS become more melodically complex with time, and that it is her evolving harmonic and melodic complexity that is her major contribution -- not her confessional lyrics, nor her "female" point of view. :-) Kay Ashley - -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:04:10 -0400 From: "katfud@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic I don't pretend to have the musical background of David Lahm, whose musical prowess I have witnessed and delighted in first hand; and I'm sure that despite my musical training, there are many here who are more advanced than I... but I have to object to the objections to Joni's statement about her later work being more melodic and more harmonically complex. For me, the major distinguishing characteristic between her "early" and "later" work (for me, the sea change begins to occur with C&S/HOSL, and is firmly in place by Hejira) is that her early work has the overt, overarching melodic lines one would associate with European music, particularly 19th century art songs, as well as the American "folk" sensibility; and that her later work deals more with internal melody: internal tensions, internal dissonances and internal resolutions -- which is, in fact, much more African than her earlier work (her earlier work could only be described as African in her occasional use of bluesy bent notes, etc. -- a superficial African attribute.) The end result is that we may hear in her later work an increase in "texture," but in my view, "texture" is code for more complex melodic structures. The prevalence of major and minor seconds, both in her tunings, in her chords and in her melodies increases drastically; the result is more complex colorations and more complex emotional response, despite the comparative reduction in "vertically" challenging melodies. I would argue that people consider her later work less melodic because they focus on the relative absence of soaring melodies of the "Song to a Seagull" ilk; in addition, the emotional complexity of her structures produces subconscious ambivalence or even confusion, but this is only because we are not used to having our ears taxed in that way. A quick listen to some key traditions in world music will illustrate how comparatively destitute the western aural palette is, apart from true blues & jazz (this comparative destitution can largely be blamed on the dominance of! equal te ning systems adopted in the 18th and 19th centuries, and western music's consequent abandonment of just intonation); and to me, one of her great triumphs in music is helping to create an increased tolerance and appreciation of dissonance and complex colors in western pop music. We all know that she should be more openly celebrated than she is (if I have to watch Dylan get worshipped for caterwauling nonsense on one more televised awards ceremony, I will pull out my hair), but I think that we are not clear on WHY. Yes, she is a brilliant poet and a brilliant composer; she has sung the soundtrack to our lives; and she has always been ahead of her time; but I think that the actual, core reasons WHY she is ahead of her time are not clearly understood. My contention is that she HAS become more melodically complex with time, and that it is her evolving harmonic and melodic complexity that is her major contribution -- not her confessional lyrics, nor her "female" point of view. :-) Kay Ashley - -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:30:49 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Cat Fugue My son's cyber pet can't yet create an organic theme when walking across the keyboard. Maybe in a few years they'll improve the software... Scarlatti, huh? Fascinating. Thanks. CC _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:46:05 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: published NJC Emily Gray Tedrowe wrote: > colin, congratulations on your sweater in the magazine! > as a new knitter, i'm really impressed. thank you. Who is the new knitter? me or you? I have been knitting since childhood and seriousl;y for 18 years now....just never thought I was any good. > > > one question, though: what does "chuffed" mean? i can't > tell if it's a positive emotion or not! positive. it means pleased. > > > -- emily - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:47:50 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: published NJC > Fabulous, Colin. You should feel chuffed! Just 2 questions:- What is MK > Monthly and can you buy it in the shops; Machine Knitting monthly and yes you can get it in the shops. WH SMITHS probbably. > and why didn't they let you know you > were going to be featured? well i knew I was going to be fatured-i sent the designs a long time ago. It seems mags take a long time to do anything. I also thought it a bit odd to be oublishing 'winter' patterns now! > > > Jacky - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:50:19 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: published NJC > Congratulations, Colin! How does it feel to be a celebrity? getting mobbed by blue hairs is a real thrill...... > > > Mark E in Seattle - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:51:18 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: published NJC "Sharon L. Buffington" wrote: > Hey Colin!!!! > > Congratulations you fine talented fellow you!!! thank you > Better to read that > sort of fine news than read the newspaper only to find out you have been > accused of murdering some baby hamsters and their mother in a feline > rage. huh? I didn't, I swear. > > > Perhaps you could put up the article? put it up where? > > > Love and peace....Sharon > > > > Emily Gray Tedrowe wrote: > > > > colin, congratulations on your sweater in the magazine! > > as a new knitter, i'm really impressed. > > > > one question, though: what does "chuffed" mean? i can't > > tell if it's a positive emotion or not! > > > > -- emily - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 13:10:27 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" <> This is really a great little discussion...now I'm more inclined to side with this opinion. I've never heard of a "pornographic watch" anyway, except maybe for a pocket watch which opens up to expose some dirty picture or something. Surely a priest would not wear something (even a wrist watch) that is openly pornographic. This lyric has always stood out to me. I'm certainly open to believe that its not as literal as I had originally thought, and that "with a pornographic watch" can mean "with an intent to watch pornography". Either way, it's a brilliant metaphor for the suffering "Boho Dance" artist, who pretends to be (and will never be) more than he is. Joni's view of "Priests" is certainly not very respectful...besides this pornographic priest, we get the priest who has impregnated Bridget in "Magdalene Laundries" and "The Priest" who we first meet in the airport bar. Anybody up for talking about THAT one? Bob NP: Toilet Boys, "Saturday Nite" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:29:51 +0100 From: colin Subject: Bashing The Bishop NJC So the RC's are finally doing 'something' about their abusing priests. Any chance they will be jailed for life and stripped of their priesthood? Doubt it. As for the Bishop of Boston, surely at the very least he should be jailed for aiding and abetting serious crimes? What will happen is we will get told a load of claptrap and excuses and it will be forgotten and children will continue being the victims of this silence. perhaps it will go someway to helping people see that priests are as human as everyone else and not deserving of the exaltation they recieve. (I believe no human being should be exalted over another-equal is equal.) Of course, in many case people do not exalt priests and instead exalt sport stars and film stars or musicians or 'royals'etc etc etc Seems people will always make gods out of other people and pay the price - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:36:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" > Joni's view of "Priests" is certainly not very respectful...besides this > pornographic priest, we get the priest who has impregnated Bridget in > "Magdalene Laundries" and "The Priest" who we first meet in the airport bar. > Anybody up for talking about THAT one? While not a priest, let us not forget the preacher in "Tax Free" (one of my all-time favorites). Lori ~ Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 13:39:48 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" <> True, and wasn't that text lifted verbatim from a monologue of Swaggart or Falwell? Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:32:44 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: published NJC "Sharon L. Buffington" wrote: > > Perhaps you could put up the article? Yes, I'd also like to see it somehow. Is the magazine published online perhaps? This is such enjoyable news, Colin! Congratulations to you! (Enjoyable, too, I'd think, that the price of your sweaters has just gone way up :-) Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:41:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" > True, and wasn't that text lifted verbatim from a monologue of > Swaggart or Falwell? Ooooh ... was it?? What good dirt!!! Lori ~ Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:02:25 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: "Pornographic watch?" Gary Zack wrote: > > Yes Lori, I agree. The "pornographic watch" is the priest > being able to look but not touch (looking and longing on the > sly) and I always took "sure it's stricken from your > uniform, but you can't get it out of your eyes" I've always taken it that way, too, rather than it being an actual physical wristwatch. I considered it more of an emotional thing within the priest that he couldn't hide or subdue and that an attentive person such as Joni would notice its small outward signs. > to mean that > he isn't wearing his clerical collar, The first Joni lyric that really intrigued me was: "He was wearing his father's tie." Did he actually borrow his biological father's tie that morning? Or is she referring to the Roman collar, his God as Father "tie", that priests wear? It could be either I think. Wasn't there a discussion a while ago that "The Priest" was about Leonard Cohen? (That was a surprise to me.) It makes the song even more interesting to think that it's not even about an actual vow-taking priest, but about someone who feels and acts as though he is, even to the point of not being able to freely "look". Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:30:51 -0500 From: Emily Gray Tedrowe Subject: Re: published NJC Colin wrote: > thank you. Who is the new knitter? me or you? I have been knitting > sincechildhood and seriousl;y for 18 years now....just never > thought I was > any good. now me: i'm a new knitter! i'm working on a scarf, which is woefully raggedy and oddly shaped, but still, i imagine that once it is wrapped around my neck no one will see all the mistakes! i do love knitting though...hope that time and practice will improve me. congrats again on the publishing of your own knitting work... i'm feeling rather chuffed FOR you! :) - -- emily ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:42:21 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: The Priest, formerly pornographic watch I've often wondered about the Priest in the airport bar. Did Joni and he really get together, or is this song simply her own daydream? I can imagine him walking over to her table and saying something seductive like, "Wow, you've got the hips of an altar-boy. Can I buy you a drink?" Ken PS>anyone familiar with the RIckie Lee jones tune, The Altar Boy? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:48:31 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Joni and Judy I recall a People Magazine Article about the time of the release of DED that said that Joni was "uncharacteristically unkind" when pressed to talk about Judy Collins. Joni related a story of Judy leaving her on the stoop waiting to be picked up for the Newport Jazz fest back in the day. Judy never picked up Joni, and then called her from the fest to tell her about it. Joni was clearly miffed and displayed some of the Scorpionic sting in this article, but my recollection is very sketchy. Does anyone know about this story? Are Joni and Judy friendly these days? Ken NP-Patty Griffen(with Emmylou) Black Limousine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:25:07 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [now long] colin wrote: > > So the RC's are finally doing 'something' about their abusing priests. > Any chance they will be jailed for life and stripped of their > priesthood? Doubt it. Lots of priests have been defrocked already, some even before the current publicity. Some priests have been sent to jail. Too many, though, and one is too many, were just moved around and reassigned so they ended up with a whole new group of children to abuse, and their new supervisors had no clue about their tendencies. That's criminal. As for the Bishop of Boston, surely at the very > least he should be jailed for aiding and abetting serious crimes? It's a real show of arrogance that he doesn't at least resign, although supposedly the pope won't let him resign. It's bad enough that there was so much abuse, hidden by church authorities for so long, but to now keep giving apologies is an empty gesture. The NY bishop has done that a few times in letters read during the services in church. Stop with the apologies already, and actually do something to keep such abuse from ever happening again. Considering allowing priests to marry or allowing women to be priests needs to be part of the current dialogue, not only among parishioners where it's been discussed for years, but among the bishops also. Unfortunately, the bishops are the only ones who have any power in the Catholic Church, unless the parishioners revolt en masse. That's happening now. Catholics are pissed off! The pope has said he won't even consider such subjects as married men or women priests, and at one point years ago was tempted and almost tried to do that "speaking from the chair" thing that popes are allowed to do, and which has only been done ONE TIME and that was regarding some Mary dogma. So, that goes to show how serious this current pope is about not allowing any changes regarding the priesthood. It's hard to imagine he would be a positive force in this situation, no matter how dramatic his calling the American bishops to Rome is... it's just another show. He seems to pray a lot; he doesn't seem to listen very well. As one of my favorite Jesuit priests says, the current pope has put the church back 50 years. I hope the next pope comes soon and does something more than try to hold onto an outdated status quo. > What will happen is we will get told a load of claptrap and excuses and it > will be forgotten and children will continue being the victims of this > silence. The church merely reflects society (rather than living up to its expressed ideals, unfortunately), so the only positive thing from the pain that so many people have suffered is that child abuse can never be hidden again, not in the thorough way it has been, which doesn't mean some people won't still abuse children and try to cover it up. I think and hope that such covering up will be harder to do now, not only in the Church but everywhere. > perhaps it will go someway to helping people see that priests are as > human as everyone else and not deserving of the exaltation they recieve. > (I believe no human being should be exalted over another-equal is > equal.) A lot of Catholics had some disdain for priests even before the current revelations of the horrible actions of some of them. To many people, priests too often considered themselves superior to the mere person in the pew, which is strange considering that it's the people sitting in the pews week after week who pay their salary, give them lifetime financial support, advanced education, a home, healthcare, travel expenses, who listen to what they say and usually automatically respect them. Cradle Catholics especially have it ingrained in them to respect "Father", no matter what "Father" might be doing. It's important to keep in mind that NOT ALL priests are pedophiles, just as not all ministers are, not all fathers are, not all teachers are. The jokes that people are saying on the list and that I'm hearing on tv can be funny, but they're pain-causing also. Non-Catholics especially seem to be enjoying taking big swats at the entire church, even though they have only the most superficial, sensationalistic information. I know some very fine priests, closely enough to know their struggles, to know that in spite of those struggles they live with integrity within what they recognize is a lousy system because they truly believe in God and want to share their awareness of God's love with everyone. It pains me to see all priests being painted with the same brush. However, since they are all part of the church system, perhaps they are all to blame, and if that's the case, parishioners are all to blame also. It may be time, enough parishioners may be angry enough, that there will be some changes made in Church structure. If not, there won't be enough money given to keep the current system going, and it will have to change, somehow, because of that. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:13:29 -0500 From: johnirving Subject: Re: Joni and Melody. Hi Fred, Why do you prefer Joni's earlier music? Hmmm, perhaps a lobotomy is in order. We can lay your neural net and brain cells in a row and stimulate them with chord/melodic changes. Or perhaps a less scientific point of attack... we can hire a spiritualist and channel your inner being. Somewhere in your soul there lies a tunning fork that resonates to 'basic' harmonic elements. When those frequencies pass into your ear, the inner muse of your tunning fork vibrates in sympathy to your ear. It's this sympathetic vibration of your soul that holds the key to your pleasure. All our tuning forks are tuned to different resonances, which explains why we like different music. -As Joni members, we share a spiritual connection of some sort. But it's not a closed set. Just tangent. That's the best I can offer. As to Joni being more melodic. Hardly. Her early music is very sing song to my ear. The melodic line and the harmonic line mirror each other and are built very closely. It's western music harmony for sure. To put it on the simplest of terms: take the chord C e G. The notes played together would form a harmony. If you string the notes out, they become a melodic line. If you sing c-e-g and harmonize along with it by playing the stacked CEG along with it, you have the purest (?), or perhaps simplest form of being 'melodic.' Also, the most generally pleasing in terms of what American audiences are used to. If you look at the sheet music for many of Joni's earliest of early songs, you'll see this simple structure in action. This is what most people think of when they think of being 'melodic.' The twist Joni brought to the stage was adding tone colors with the addition of notes to the simple chord by using alternate tunings. Suddenly, the CeG becomes CeGaF. The harmony of the bar is widended and colored. The melodic line has a greater room for movement. the notes c e g a f all become fair ground for simple melodic/harmonic pairing. Essentially tho, her early music still relies on the melodic line/harmonic structure falling more in 'keeping' with each other. Enter jazz. Suddenly the melodic line and harmonic structure are freed from each other. In spaces of the bar, chords play 'free' of any rhythmic or harmonic movement of the melodic line. It's still melodic and it's still harmonic, just not mirrored to each other. This contrapunctnal structure is where Joni feels she's giving more melody to the song. Think of simpler song structures where you can write a lead sheet for a verse and then simply add the other verses underneath. Essentially, the words change but the melodic/harmonic movement stays the same. Here's Joni writing music where you can't do that anymore. She's altering where to come in on the bar and the notes raise and lower to, as she puts it, 'give the words their own natural inflection.' There's more there there. For a lot of people, to play CEG and never get around, in the melodic line to singing either c, e or g strikes of being non-melodic. It just doesn't rink right to their inner harmonic resonance. For myself, to play CEG and to sing c e g as a melodic movement is sing song and disinteresting. I'd rather hear the other colors in the melodic line. More dissonant, yes. But more complex and beautiful to my ear. One of the things I loved, for awhile with any 'new' Joan was a total feeling of not knowing where the @$#^^!#^& the song was going on the first listen. It would simply have to unravel before my ear. And it would take several listenings before I got familiar enough with the music to be aware of it's structure. That's the Joan I love and she delivers it in spades as her musical career evolved. We just need to warp your internal resonances a bit. -Gang, get the rack!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:01:19 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC [now long] > Lots of priests have been defrocked already, some even before the > current publicity. Some priests have been sent to jail. that's good- that they have been amde to take responsibilty. It is not good that there have been so many. > > rahter than continue quoting: as i think you know, iw as brought up in the church till early teens when we got involved witht he jw's. I don't believe all priests are bad. i am perplexed as to why you brought up the 'priests should be allowed to marry' thing. (of course they should be) Having married preists will not stop child abuse. Peodophilia is not something one does for lack of an adult to do it with.(I am sure you know that hence me being perplexed). To me the whole church thing, especially the way it is done by RC's is so unBibilcal it just baffles me that it has so many follwers. The Protestent way is just as unbiclical. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:05:02 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni and Melody. I prefer Joni's later works. Yes, less tuneful, but also much less painful on the ear! But then I don't listen to joni for the tune but for the music. it resonates somehow with me. Half the time I haev no clue what she is even singing about(terrible diction), even with the lyric printed on the covers. But the sounds she makes please me. Now when i want to listen to great singing and a good tune I listen to carly...... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:08:21 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: published NJC Emily Gray Tedrowe wrote: > Colin wrote: > > > thank you. Who is the new knitter? me or you? I have been knitting > > sincechildhood and seriousl;y for 18 years now....just never > > thought I was > > any good. > > now me: > > i'm a new knitter! i'm working on a scarf, which is woefully > raggedy and oddly shaped, but still, i imagine that once it > is wrapped around my neck no one will see all the mistakes! > i do love knitting though...hope that time and practice > will improve me. practice will improve you of course. a knitting machine will be quicker tho! Apart fromt hat you will be able to all sorts of things, not just quick 'hand knitting'. They are two different crafts really. You can do thinhs by machine that are impossible by hand and do things by hand that you can't do on a machine. Of course machines are not really portable and a bit difficult to use and watch tv at the same time. Mind you I can't hand knit without looking at my hands anyway so watching tv is moot. or is it mute? > > > congrats again on the publishing of your own knitting work... > i'm feeling rather chuffed FOR you! :) > > -- emily - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:15:09 +0100 From: colin Subject: memory njc I have mentioned before that i can remember 24 digit numbers and passwords etc but can't rememebr what id di yesterday or to set the reorder or dates in history etc. How about this: I have listened to Joni and Carly 000's of times and can sing along whilst listening to the cd, and in the case of Carly, will sing all the lyric accurately. However, when not listening, i cannot recall the 'tune' or the words, bar a few that stick in my mind. I could of course learn the lyric by rote. But i couldn't then sing with it's tune without the cd playing. Why when I have listened to the same damn song 000's of times since i was teen? weird. yet John can almost play by ear. He has this really annoying habit of sinning along to a song he is hearing for the first time! I have to hear it many times before I can. I tell a lie-i can sing Twisted with no cd playing and recall most of t lyric. No comment please. - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:29:26 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic In a message dated 4/23/02 2:02:17 AM, Merk54 writes: >I definitely agree with you on some of this. I think the most obvious >demonstration of this would be the comparison of Joni's two versions of >Man From Mars - The TTT version, and the her version from the Grace of >My Heart sound track. While the TTT version is very nice, and melds beautifully >with the rest of TTT, her GOMH version is a stunner. The GOMH version, which was produced by Larry Klein, by the way, is the closest thing to older-style-Joni that she's released in a long, long time, both in its orchestration/production and in the actual notes. It's very nice. >As far as TTT sounding too much the same, I've had several friends make >the same complaint about Hejira and Blue, and in reality, they both do >have a unique consistancy to them. For some reason, though, people are >more open to the sounds of these albums. To me, it's just a matter of >preference. Hejira has an inherent, built-in sameness that is actually a significant component of the aesthetic of the album, and of its artistic success. Blue is more varied, although it also has an inherent homogeneity that contributes to its achievement. But the consistency of both these albums is like the congruity of a very fine, complex, full-bodied wine ... lots of rich nuance and variation within their conformity. TTT's sameness is the repetition of the average (albeit, Joni's average is a hell of a lot better than most people's best). Sorry to be so harsh, but to my ears, that's honestly how wide the disparity is for me. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:37:16 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Bashing The Bishop NJC Colin writes: << As for the Bishop of Boston, surely at the very least he should be jailed for aiding and abetting serious crimes? >> Colin, I have never agreed with you more. But sadly -- and disgracefully -- Cardinal Law (or Cardinal Above-the-Law, as he is called on one radio call-in show here in Boston) will never see the inside of the prison cell that, in my opinion, he deserves to be in for the rest of his life. If this fiend had been a politician, or an educator, or a police official, or anyone else who had allowed these horrific crimes against children -- numbering at least in the hundreds -- to go on and on for decades, he would have been cheerfully locked up years ago and the key would have been gleefully thrown away. It's hard to imagine that any institution could be powerful enough to protect such a monster, but the Catholic Church is that powerful, especially here in Boston. In fact, while 40 protesters called for the Cardinal's resignation outside Boston's Cathedral of the Holy Cross this past Sunday, 600 parishioners on the inside gave him a standing ovation. Tears come to my eyes when I think of how the victims must feel when they hear such news reports. What's more, many wealthy and influential local Catholics (such as Peter Lynch from Fidelity Investments, who reportedly gave $10 million to the Archdiocese of Boston last year) have remained absolutely silent on the matter. Can you believe that anyone could remain silent about the rape of children? Can you believe that people who profess to do God's work could actually cover up such despicable crimes? Well, it happened, and it is more than likely still happening throughout the world. I wish I could feel assured that this little meeting of American Cardinals with the Pope would make things better, but as long as the likes of Cardinal Law are in power, I see very little hope for change. I was not the brightest child in the world, but for some reason I saw and was repulsed by the hypocrisy of the Church from a very young age. (If my parents did nothing else right, I was lucky enough to be sent to public school, rather than parochial.) The fact is, my first confession was my last, and I managed to tune out the Church until I was a teenager and joined a Protestant youth group. I always saw very plainly that the Church had more than its share of bad men and women, but I never could have imagined -- even with my very low opinion of the Church -- that the Church would ever be complicit in the rape of hundreds, and most likely, thousands of children throughout the world. But that's not all. A local class action lawsuit recently awarded a large group of victims of priest rape about $87 million, I think it was. Now the Archdiocese of Boston is whining about how they're going to pay for all the damages, and they are asking parishioners to dig a little deeper to help defray these costs. Excuse me? I would think that in an age when van Goghs sell for $100 million, Vatican officials could find some long-forgotten art work in some out-of-the-way storage room in Rome and come up with what would amount to chump change for these victims who have suffered way more than most of us can ever imagine. And for any good Catholics out there -- and I know there are literally millions of them in the world -- if you feel offended by this post, please go back and read it again. Unless you are raping and/or covering up the abuse of children, or supporting slimeballs like Law, it's simply not about you. --Bob ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #178 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?