From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #137 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, March 27 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 137 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in History: March 26 [les@jmdl.com] Today's Articles: March 26 [les@jmdl.com] Re: Michael From Mountains [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Happy Oscar Day (NJC) [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: JONI: CBC-TV [Shnootre@aol.com] Re: JONI: CBC-TV [Jerry Notaro ] Re: JONI: CBC-TV [Ken ] Re: JONI: CBC-TV [Rick and Susan ] Re: Happy Oscar Day (NJC) [Mags N Brei ] Re: I'm Cindy and I'm New! [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: I'm Cindy and I'm New! [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: I'm Cindy and I'm New! [colin ] Re: JONI: CBC-TV [Mags N Brei ] Re: (njc) Smart This&That [colin ] Re: A.I. NJC [colin ] Re: (njc)Artificial Intelligence and human arrogance, andtossing away the no longer fresh, new, useful... [] Re: A.I. NJC [Reuben3rd@aol.com] Re: A.I. NJC [Reuben3rd@aol.com] Jack's story ["marianne marianne" ] Re: A.I. NJC [colin ] Magdalen Launderies NJC [colin ] Liza's 3 Octaves vs. Joni & Sheryl Crow ["Kate Bennett" ] Discussion of AI (NJC) [Lindsay Moon ] AI (NJC) [Lindsay Moon ] Re: AI (NJC) [colin ] Re: A.I. NJC [colin ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #134 - Janis Ian's latest [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: Happy Birthday SUE!!! (NJC) [Alison E ] Re: my so called life njc ["Suze Cameron" ] Re: Happy Birthday SUE!!! (NJC) ["Suze Cameron" ] Off pitch? Flat? was: Liza's 3 Octaves vs. Joni & Sheryl Crow, njc ["] Re: I'm Cindy and I'm New, njc really ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: (njc) Smart This&That [Catherine McKay ] Re: (njc)Artificial Intelligence and human arrogance, andtossing away the no longer fresh, new, useful... [Cat] Re: A.I. NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: I'm Cindy and I'm New, njc really [Catherine McKay ] New CD Player [CoyoteRick@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 03:05:41 -0500 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: March 26 On March 26 in Joni Mitchell History: 1983: Joni performs in Brussels, Belgium - ------------------------ Search the "Today" database at http://www.jmdl.com/today ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 03:05:41 -0500 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Articles: March 26 On March 26 the following articles were published: 1988: "Chalk Mark In A Rainstorm" - People (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/880326p.cfm 1988: "Joni Mitchell Delighted to be Home" - Saskatoon StarPhoenix (Interview, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/880326ssp.cfm 2000: "Singing Your Pain" - Brisbane Courier Mail (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/000326bcm.cfm - ------------------------ http://www.jmdl.com/articles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 04:53:47 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Michael From Mountains Mark, I meant to respond to this earlier, but ... Anyway, yes, I was the one who wrote about loving Joni's early music. And you're in the ballpark on this. Two of Joni's main devices in her early songs are her major/minor shifts and her oblique chromaticism; the latter is what you hear in the lines you quoted: "There's oil in puddle in taffeta patterns" is in a major tonality, then "that run down the drain" is, too, except that it's a half-step down, which produces an effect somewhat similar to, but still quite different from, a major/minor shift. She does it again on the very next phrase "In colored arrangements ... " It produces a disconnected, "falling" feeling; very common in Joni's early songs. (For example, "Songs To Aging Children Come" consists almost entirely of this device, as well as other permutations of oblique and otherwise unrelated chromaticism.) Where you will hear the major/minor shift in "Michael From Mountains" is on these lines: (starts major) "Michael wakes you up with sweets, he takes you up (shift to minor) streets and the rain comes (return to major) down." I hope this is clear. I'll bet if you go back to Joni's version, you'll now hear the same thing you heard in Judy's version just as well. What's really fascinating to me is how understanding the music in a technical way actually enhances its emotional effect; for instance, one easily sees how her "falling" chromaticism device causes a direct and visceral tug on the heart. I love music. Later, Fred In a message dated 3/15/02 1:43:24 AM, les@jmdl.com writes: >"Mark or Travis" >Subject: Michael From Mountains > >Since buying Judy Collins' 'Wildflowers' I've been sort of hearing 'Michael >From Mountains' with new ears. All these years that I've been listening >to Joni's version on 'Song To A Seagull' I've always thought this song (and >all the songs on STAS) had a very pretty melody. But hearing it in a more >orchestral setting on 'Wildflowers' has made me hear just how unique & >unusual this melody is. > >I think it was Fred who wrote a post about loving Joni's early songs because >the melodies were more interesting and unusual. If I remember right, Fred, >you mentioned that Joni's early songs often seemed to shift between minor >& major chords or keys and that this created an effect that you admired. >I'm not a musician so please excuse my fumbling for terminology & my ignorance. >But listening to Judy's version of 'MFM' (hey that could be 'Michael From >Mountains' or 'Man From Mars' - sometimes those anagrams can get confusing) >I'm pretty sure I can distinctly hear what you were referring to. The >phrase 'There's oil in puddle in taffeta patterns' sounds like a major >key to me but then the following phrase 'that run down the drain' sounds minor. >Am I right or did I land in a puddle and now I'm all wet? The funny thing >is that this never struck me as particularly different or remarkable in >Joni's version of the song. It was just part of the melody & I never >thought much about it. But in the Judy Collins version it is so obvious >to me. It really gives me a new appreciation of this particular song and >of course of the genius behind it. > >Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 06:45:29 EST From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Oscar Day (NJC) Coyote Rick wrote: <<< By the way, did anyone notice Sir Ian's handsome date -- at one point they showed his boyfriend with his hand placed lovingly on Ian's knee. Way to go, Ian! >> Yep!! :-) I was even a bit jealous! LOL!!! He was *very* good looking! I was glad to see this on TV. We *are* moving forward with opening doors, although perhaps slowly, and I thought this night showed that more than ever. I also thought the Oscar's were very well done. I almost never watch TV at all, but I know someone that was up for Best Documentary, so had to watch for him. Alas, the film didn't win, but is a fantastic documentary. Check it out if you see it come 'round to your neck of the woods. The film is called "Promises" and it interviews kids in Israel, on both sides of the conflict. BZ did a great job on this movie, and I'm real proud of him. PROMISES NOW PLAYING: New York City: The Quad Cinema (34 West 13th Street) 212-255-8800 Boston: The Coolidge Corner Theater (290 Harvard Street) 617-734-2500 PROMISES will open in Los Angeles at Laemmle's Music Hall on March 22nd. Address: 9036 Wilshire Boulevard 310-274-6869 PROMISES will open in Pleasantville, NY at the Jacob Burns Film Center on March 22nd. Address: 364 Manville Road 914.747.5555 PROMISES will open in D.C. at Visions Theater, Bistro, & Lounge on April 4th. Address: 1927 Florida Ave. NW (202) 667-0090 More cities opening this spring/summer! Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:39:36 EST From: Shnootre@aol.com Subject: Re: JONI: CBC-TV According to CBC's Website (tv.cbc.ca"): "Please note: Joni Mitchell: Both Sides Now and then, Parts One and Two, originally scheduled for broadcast March 26th and April 2, 2002 at 7 p.m. has been postponed until fall 2002 due to unforeseen production difficulties." Does anyone know the scoop on this? And how might some of us stuck in the U.S. get our hands on this program when it ultimately does broadcast? - -Dan Sonenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:53:55 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: JONI: CBC-TV Shnootre@aol.com wrote: > According to CBC's Website (tv.cbc.ca"): > > "Please note: Joni Mitchell: Both Sides Now and then, Parts One and Two, originally scheduled for broadcast March 26th and April 2, 2002 at 7 p.m. has been postponed until fall 2002 due to unforeseen production difficulties." What a surprise. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:26:16 -0500 From: Ken Subject: Re: JONI: CBC-TV NUTS! Thanks for the warning though. Shnootre@aol.com wrote: >According to CBC's Website (tv.cbc.ca"): > >"Please note: Joni Mitchell: Both Sides Now and then, Parts One and Two, originally scheduled for broadcast March 26th and April 2, 2002 at 7 p.m. has been postponed until fall 2002 due to unforeseen production difficulties." > >Does anyone know the scoop on this? And how might some of us stuck in the U.S. get our hands on this program when it ultimately does broadcast? > >-Dan Sonenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:00:58 -0800 From: Rick and Susan Subject: Re: JONI: CBC-TV > According to CBC's Website (tv.cbc.ca"): > "Please note: Joni Mitchell: Both Sides Now and then, Parts One and Two, > originally scheduled for broadcast March 26th and April 2, 2002 at 7 p.m. has > been postponed until fall 2002 due to unforeseen production difficulties." Rats, and I just went out and bought several high-end video tapes. Looks like it will now come out around the same time as it appears on PBS in the States. Ranger Rick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:44:38 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Happy Oscar Day (NJC) - --- AsharaJM@aol.com wrote: > > < TV at > all, but I know someone that was up for Best Documentary, so had to > watch for > him. Alas, the film didn't win, but is a fantastic documentary. Check > it out > if you see it come 'round to your neck of the woods. The film is > called > "Promises" and it interviews kids in Israel, on both sides of the > conflict. > BZ did a great job on this movie, and I'm real proud of him.>> Ashara, Ive heard reviews of this film and it sounds fantastic! I look forward to it. I suggest that you see No Man's Land, the film that did win the award for Best Foreign Film. I saw it with a good friend and work colleague who moved here from Bosnia a few years ago, completely uprooted his family, left everything behind to establish a 'new' life. He has seen the film and said it is very, very real. And not your typical war film either. (not like Saving Private Guts at all, if you catch my drift). ;-) The message throughout is profound and the ending left me completely speechless and in tears. (yea, Mags cries easily ;-) but this is really, really heartwrenching). The film evolves around one situation which becomes so tense, so riveting! The film is astounding and the message is subtle and not, the effects are long and lasting . Talk about seeing life from 'both sides now'. I cried and actually felt the pain, the frustration, the futility of a situation that no one could do a damned thing about. That was a given. Hard to explain and I certainly do not want to give any of it away. If you havent seen it, please do. I highly recommend it. I am an Oscar junkie from way back. I love to see who is wearing what, who is with who and all that mind candy stuff. And then there's the real reason why I love to watch the Oscars. Underneath all the glitz and glamour resides the 'why' I go to films in the first place. Sometimes I go to forget, to remember, to feel or not. Imagine being a director or an actor, or a film maker, having that opportunity to speak in that way. I like taking pictures of people for the same reason..there is something about the expression that film allows that really moves me. Capture a moment on film, catch that light ... mmmm love it. For me, film is such an exciting aart form. Through the eyes of the writer, director, producer (etc) we are swept away to spaces inside and outside of our selves. Film touches so many of the senses, and since I am such a visual person, well, suffice to say that films mean more to me than my words can express. As a life long fan of Sidney Poitier, I was moved to tears when he spoke. He is such an elegant, intelligent, talented man whose work I have admired for many years. Mags soon to be in E.S.C. ;-) np: Song for a Winter's Night, Gord Lightfoot, from Gord's Gold thanks sweetie ;-) > ===== You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards. http://movies.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:45:35 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: I'm Cindy and I'm New! Hi Cindy. Welcome! I haven't read the other responses to you yet, so please excuse any repetition :-) Yes, we've been talking about a lot of different things, which is pretty normal. Sometimes we'll have several Joni threads going, and sometimes we talk about other things. (If you find this overwhelming, you can always go the "Joni-only" route (and miss out on all the emails with NJC (no Joni content) in the subject line. A lot of us know each other and some of us have met in person. There have been gathering in several locations, with the "JoniFests" in the U.S. northeast (New England until this coming year) and New Orleans. As anyone who has been to one will tell you, JoniFests are fantastic!!! We also trade Joni music - tapes of early concerts, for example. Plus Bob Muller is the king of covers, with 27 (or is it 28? now) volumes of Joni songs covered by other artists. It sounds like you and I are pretty much the same age and discovered Joni at about the same time. Yes, Joni has always talked in her songs about what was next in life. And yet, her songs have always been relevant to my life at the moment, too. Oh, there are some 'threads' and questions that we've done a bunch. so pay no mind to the collective groan when we get into those topics. The "what does SIQUOMB (she is queen of mind beauty - but you knew that) stand for" question always elicits a moan, that and "what does NP (now playing) or NPIMH (now playing in my head) stand for." Plus there's the Dog Eat Dog debate that rages unresolved. A few of us really like DED, but the majority seem to look askance at it. (I guess you can tell where I stand...) There are somewhere around 800 members of the list worldwide. But a lot of people are "lurkers" (isn't it time to revive the "what do we call people who read posts, but don't post" thread. "Lurker" just sounds rather menacing. And, yes, that was a groan you heard from about 800 people :-) Well, I guess I've rambled enough. So, welcome to the list Cindy! lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:56:56 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: I'm Cindy and I'm New! Hi Alan. You know, I've been debating what to send you next. But maybe I should just send a few different lyrics and let you choose. btw, do you want to hear the original melody I wrote for "Steal a Star?" If not, that's ok - I thought it might be fun for you to see how you gave the song life. So, here's one song. (I have written melodies for all of these, but as I've said before, the melodies kind of drag, I think.) ________________________________________________ Crying on the Shoulder of the Road Ive been traveling down loves highway Romance goes the wrong way Passes by every day I dont know why Ive been sharing this road with Caddys You know they sure are pretty But they dont make me happy They fly right by CHORUS: So now Im crying on the shoulder of the road Tomorrow Ill be ready, ready to roll No more fast lane flings I want the real thing Til then Im crying on the shoulder of the road Send me a strong man who is steady Dont need a fancy fool who says he Knows everything I need already No not me Ive been looking for love all over For the perfect kind of lover With a heart thats true and tender Thats what I need CHORUS: But now Im... BRIDGE: Im looking for that romantic ride Someone tried and true by my side CHORUS: Til then Im... copyright (c) 2002, Anne Sandstrom ________________________________________________ cheers! Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:44:46 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: I'm Cindy and I'm New! > Any info about how I may be able to contribute to the > dialouge would be appreciated. Hello Cindy and welcome. Just conritbute as when your heart and mind desire. there is no right way to do it. Just if it isn;t about joni or her work, tag it NJC. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:37:30 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: JONI: CBC-TV Shnootre@aol.com wrote: > > > According to CBC's Website (tv.cbc.ca"): > > > > "Please note: Joni Mitchell: Both Sides Now and then, Parts One and > Two, originally scheduled for broadcast March 26th and April 2, 2002 > at 7 p.m. has been postponed until fall 2002 due to unforeseen > production difficulties." Jerry wrote: > What a surprise. Maybe they are waiting to use the Tribute album as the soundtrack for the 2 hours worth of show? ;-) Brei, already is E.S.C. np: Laura Nyro - Time and Love - The Essential Masters (with new liner notes and digitally remastered from the original tapes) ===== You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards. http://movies.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:48:23 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: (njc) Smart This&That > i.e., ways to keep terrorists > from slipping through our borders. according to news yesterday, 70% of knives got thru security at airports and 30% of guns. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:52:01 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: A.I. NJC > My feeling was that people didn't like what appeared > on the surface to be a (kind of) happy ending but on > further reflection turned out to be deeply disturbing. it was deeply disturbing. Not at all a happy ending. For sevral reasons. The fact that humans had died out(maybe not too disturbing), the fact that his 'mother' could be brought back to life but only for a day. That was distubing(althought the comments regarding space/time were very interesting but not gone into) and also because all this efffort was for a Robot. Why? So anyway Tyler, you say you thought it was very good. So I guess then you know what it was about? Fancy telling those of us who didn't get it? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:02:36 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: (njc)Artificial Intelligence and human arrogance, andtossing away the no longer fresh, new, useful... > I think this was one of the themes -- the tossing away of things no longer > useful I didn't take it like that at all! It reminded me of the gladiators. public executoons, the throngs of morons otuside courts. > worse still, the scene with Law and Osmond with the cartoon-like > oracle), I thought that was straight from tThe Wizard Of Oz and gave pretty much the same sort of useful answers as that wizard! > but the cavalier attitude of humans towards robots was a unifying > theme, I thought. This is what i don't get. They were robots, not human, they were mechanical. That is it. No heart, no soul, nothing human. Fancy computers. My heart is not going to break over a computer getting smashed to pieces. It just occurred to me that maybe there was meant to be a comaprison or something between people getting hooked into feeling for these 'poor robots' whilst real people are being absued and beaten and 'fed to the corwd' daily and we just ignore it. > > I believe these beings were meant to be an advanced race of > robots from the distant future -- also designed and built by whom? didn't occur to me they were robots too. it did occur to me that their necks were too long and thing to support their heads. > . The > apparent sadness of the beings, and their compassion for this poor "old" > robot (Osmond) were, I think, intended as ironic counterpoint/contrast to the > callousness of the humans in the earlier scenes, who threw away intelligent > (albeit constructed) beings as soon as they became old, useless, etc. That is not how I read it all, for the reasons given preveiously-they were machines, computers so whatever the behaviour towards them callous cannot be used to describe it. They wre not 'real' beings. Fake. Totally fake. A trick. A counterfiet. > > > Just my thoughts; admittedly, I liked the movie, but I agree it was hard to > understand, Both you and Tyler obviously really appreciated this film, and why shouldn't you. but niether of you have told us what it is about! Do you like to tease?! > But it did make sense to me. so SHARE it please!!!! I really enjoyed it from a visual piujtn of view and I hung in all the way to the end hoping for a revelation which just didn't come. btw the end of humans was ambiguous. It implied another Ice Age, which could have ,maybe not, ben our fault for the wya we live today. You know greehouse gasses etc > > > Non-mechanical hugs to all, > > Walt - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:00:10 EST From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: A.I. NJC Nope...me and mine loved it too. That bit towards the end with the blue fairy had me weeping profusely; so desolate and sad. I thought this was a great movie - and I'm sort of wary of Speilburgien epics at this point. (I'm not even sure I can sit through E.T. again when it is rereleased.) Reuben > Are me and my partner the only people on Earth who > really liked A.I.? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:06:38 EST From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: A.I. NJC Colin wrote: The fact that humans had died out(maybe not too disturbing), the fact that his 'mother' could be brought back to life but only for a day. That was distubing(althought the comments regarding space/time were very interesting but not gone into) and also because allthis efffort was for a Robot. Why? - -- This is what I liked about it, though: the idea that human happiness and satisfaction was something that could be achieved literally after eons of sitting and waiting patiently, although the human lifespan was not able to wait that long. Then - that human desire and longing could be so easily satisfied with smoke and mirrors...it was just terribly, terribly sad, but kind of made sense at the same time. The robots with the artificial emotions that spent so much energy trying to mimic the human condition spotlighted the banality of it all. Loved it! Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:16:07 -0500 From: "marianne marianne" Subject: Jack's story Jack, Your story about the concert and waiting for A Case of You and Joni's orchestrated version of Both Sides Now broadcasted over the speakers at the concert's end was beautiful. It brought such emotion to me just hearing about it. A gift. and.......... < listened to Joni Mitchell all the way down here, and basically just reflected onwhat an incredible song writer she is, and that in looking at this eventthrough that particular window, she couldn't be happier. < This too was beautiful to hear about. Thank you Jack. Marianne _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:13:49 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: A.I. NJC > This is what I liked about it, though: the idea that human happiness and satisfaction was something that could be achieved literally after eons of sitting and waiting patiently, But it wasn't! he was a ROBOT!!!!!!! human longing is far from easily satisfied. the fact that people search to be satified in all the wrong ways/places is indeed very sad. Humans and their emtions are ahything but banal. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:21:12 +0000 From: colin Subject: Magdalen Launderies NJC A BBC Drama is on(break for news) called Sinners. It is about the Magdelen Laundries. it makes me feel very sinful indeed. i want to kill those fucking nuns. Just like the ones that taught us in the 60's(this drama is set int he 60's and based on fact). So much evil is done by the self righteous. Those htat excsue these monsters and say they are 'just doing their best' and acting according to their faith are just talking bullshit. BULLSHIT. They know exactly what they are doing and it aint got nothing to do with God or Mary or Jesus but with their own sick perverted desires and evil intent. I really don't know i bother watch this shit. I could put my fist thru this pc screen right now. The suffering people have endured and still endure, meated out by these so called pious people. God save me from religion and it's followers. - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:54:44 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Liza's 3 Octaves vs. Joni & Sheryl Crow hey Lindsay...synchronicity- watched bravos musicians last night & Sheryl was the guest...she played that song & some others...i thought one of her guitars was out of tune (that she played home on & another in the beginning) i am always hearing out of tune guitars too!, i love that song...i believe it is on her second release (that i forget the name of) which i have listened to many times but never heard the song as out of tune...but i will have to go listen again... also, last night she did a little snippet of her operatic ability...i had seen her once on tv in concert with Pavarotti (sp?) & was blown away by the fact that she has this whole other vocal side to her.. >>On another musical note, I heard Sheryl Crow sing a great song on the radio. I felt like I'd heard it before, great tune, a ballad, with the chorus, "and this is ho-o-o-me..." Another line about something 'tearing me apart.' Maybe some of you know it. The thing that caught me though was one of her guitar strings sounded out of tune and that's all I could focus on. Ugh! I kept grunting! Tune the guitar! How could you record that out-of-tune string! Anyone else hear it? To me, Sheryl's voice often sounds flat. Is it me?<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:06:31 -0800 (PST) From: Tyler Hewitt Subject: Re: A.I. NJC What do I think A.I. is about? Well, lots of things. Largely about ethics, especially ethics regarding use of technology. Are we responsible for what we create? What happens when we create something that is useful or operable or in the case of Osment's charecter "living" long after we are gone? Is it possible to love a mechanical thing? Can mechanical things express love? Does this make them 'alive'? When we are capable of making something mecanical that is 'alive', how do we treat them? As human, or as sub-human? I also think its about the future of humanity once machines can self replicate. Or maybe its more about where 'humanity' exists. Can humanity only exist within humans? I also think it's kind of a deconstuction of the myth of the happy childhood. This is especially interesting given the peter pan syndrome present in a lot of Spielberg's work. And ultimately I think it's fairly misanthropic, suggesting that humanity ultimately will exist as nothing more than a fleeting but pleasant memory for something that probably wasn't alive in the first place. None of these themes are necessarily original to A.I.. They've all been explored before in various films, books, etc. I kept picking up Blade Runner's scent while watching A.I. (I think Blade Runner is a disturbing film too). One of the things that makes A.I. original is the Speilberg/Kubrick mix. At times it felt very much like a Kubrick film, other times very Spielbergian. The two don't mix particularly well, but unlike a lot of others I found that tension really worked well. It plays with the viewer's sense of what to expect. - --- colin wrote: > > > > > > My feeling was that people didn't like what > appeared > > on the surface to be a (kind of) happy ending but > on > > further reflection turned out to be deeply > disturbing. > > it was deeply disturbing. Not at all a happy ending. > > For sevral reasons. The fact that humans had died > out(maybe not too > disturbing), the fact that his 'mother' could be > brought back to life > but only for a day. That was distubing(althought the > comments regarding > space/time were very interesting but not gone into) > and also because all > this efffort was for a Robot. Why? > > So anyway Tyler, you say you thought it was very > good. So I guess then > you know what it was about? Fancy telling those of > us who didn't get it? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards. http://movies.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:30:15 -0800 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: Discussion of AI (NJC) Tyler Hewitt wrote of AI: <> Tyler, I'm afraid I'm on the list of those who didn't like it (just saw most of it this weekend). I am a huge Blade Runner fan (have seen it at least a bazillion times and it mesmerizes me every time). To me, BR had a beginning, middle, end, a plot. AI seemed to me to just meander along. It would start on a story line, move along with it, and then it was over and another was beginning. I had to give up and go to bed when I didn't see any end in sight. I thought Haley Joe Osment was very good, though, and I was hopeful when William Hurt's character was brought back in ... (reminded me of BR's replicant trying to 'meet his maker') but then to no avail. If you have any thoughts on something I missed, I'd love to hear them. Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:34:15 -0800 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: AI (NJC) Big Walt wrote: <> My take on it was the robots weren't destroyed because they were no longer useful but because they were a threat to replace the humans, that the humans were destroying them to regain their power. Dunno. I was stumped. Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 00:09:38 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: AI (NJC) > that the > humans were destroying them to regain their power. I thoguht that too. > Dunno. I was stumped. > > Lindsay - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 00:22:40 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: A.I. NJC Tyler Hewitt wrote: > What do I think A.I. is about? > > Well, lots of things. Largely about ethics, especially > ethics regarding use of technology. Are we responsible > for what we create? What happens when we create > something that is useful or operable or in the case of > Osment's charecter "living" long after we are gone? Is > it possible to love a mechanical thing? Can mechanical > things express love? Does this make them 'alive'? > When we are capable of making something mecanical that > is 'alive', how do we treat them? As human, or as > sub-human? I guess I didn't ask myself those questions becasue to me a robot is robot. end of story. it cannot be alive no matter what. However, for me the greater question lay in the original paremnts inability to accpet the death of their child and also William Hurts' characters refusal to accept the loss of his. I assume he has lost his as the robot boy is the replica of him in looks. It also made me think about the lenghts people go to to have children now when there are so many babies requiring homes who are left to rot whilst new baies are grown in test tubes or genes are messed with in order to have a tilor made baby. It also for me, showed what terrible things can happen when we put our faith and trust in counterfeit things-like money, sex, religion(as opposed to God), power, people,science,drugs, food, ......the list is manifest! > > . Can humanity only exist > within humans? yes. you'd have to call it somehting else if it existed elsewhere. the 'humanity' supplies hte defination. However, if you are asking can a machine feel , then no. > > I also think it's kind of a deconstuction of the myth > of the happy childhood. Most people have happy childhoods because it is too painful to have anything esle. I followed the film all the way thru. Enjoy is not the right word, it fascinated me. I also realise now that it perhaps wasn't supposed to be about something-other than the thoughts it produced in me-although it didn't make me think of anything i don't normally think about anyway. It was avisual feast. Sometimes I think tho that if a film maker feels he/she has an importnat, worthy opoint to get across, then they shouldn't be so obtuse about it! A film like this would have had huge appeal and success if the points they wanted to draw attention to were less obtuse and more readily grasped by the viewer. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:10:38 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #134 - Janis Ian's latest Not sure if anyone answered the "What is Janis Ian's latest stuff like?" question, but, by and large, it is very good -- though her albums don't match her performing skills. Of her "third career," which started in the early 90s, "Breaking Silence" and the latest, "god & the fbi," are the clearly superior sets. "god" has some very strong melodies, a nice duet with Willie Nelson on a beautiful song called "Memphis," and a great variety of muscical styles, from ballads, to orchestrated rock, to neo-country (but not that icky contemporary country). There's a very powerful song called "On the Other Side," about a person who has died, gone to the 'other side' and is looking back at their death - which happened while saving people from a burning, collapsing building. It has very mystical, 9/11 overtones but was composed pre-9/11. "god" was released the same day as Both Sides Now. It and Breaking Silence (which contains "Some People's Lives," one of the best songs ever written by, by anyone) are hard to find in stores (Janis has, unfortunately, signed with record complanies that either go out of business or drop her because of slow sales), but are available on Amazon.com or at janisian.com. There, I'm off the Janis soapbox and will let it rest..... Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:31:32 -0800 (PST) From: Alison E Subject: Re: Happy Birthday SUE!!! (NJC) oh, boy, am i ever late. HAPPY FUCKING BIRTHDAY SUZE! to my sister, who can hang on the streets of the village, the sheeps meadow, my balcony...(damn, we broke alot of laws!) and slam back bloody's with the best of 'em! miss you! love you! happy birthday, alison e. - --- AsharaJM@aol.com wrote: > The very happiest of birthdays to Sue Cameron!! Hope > your day was > WONDERFUL!!! :-) > > Hugs, > Ashara Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards. http://movies.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:34:44 -0500 From: "Suze Cameron" Subject: Re: my so called life njc Hey RR! Great news on the box set! Thanks!!!! I was wondering what to do with all of my b-day dough! This will make a great "gift-to-self". btw, frozen embryos was one of the names of Leto's band, the other was residue. Know I am getting old and it's time for the ginko when it takes me three days to remember this useless bit of into that was driving me nuts. Residue. Crazy! Thanks to all for the lovely b-day wishes. For those of you who said nasty things about my age and gravity taking toll on my body I have only one reply.....READ BETWEEN THE LINES!!!!! :-) n.p. Every Time, Janet Jackson See Dave Matthews Band live or win a signed guitar http://r.lycos.com/r/bmgfly_mail_dmb/http://win.ipromotions.com/lycos_020201/splash.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:41:27 -0500 From: "Suze Cameron" Subject: Re: Happy Birthday SUE!!! (NJC) Alison wrote: >HAPPY FUCKING BIRTHDAY SUZE! >to my sister, who can hang on the streets of the >village, the sheeps meadow, O.k., I do believe Julius had more fun in the sheeps meadow, but Paz has alluded to that before :-) n.p. Tonight's the Night, Janet Jackson See Dave Matthews Band live or win a signed guitar http://r.lycos.com/r/bmgfly_mail_dmb/http://win.ipromotions.com/lycos_020201/splash.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 21:54:57 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Off pitch? Flat? was: Liza's 3 Octaves vs. Joni & Sheryl Crow, njc I like people who have 'imperfect' voices. Joni, Neil Young, Sheryl Crow, and Donald Fagen seem to bend downward at the end of lines in a way that conveys sarcasm or disappointment to me. It may not be 'correct' but wow, do I like it. At the other end of the spectrum (for me) are the on-pitch "perfect" voices at the music shows at theme parks. Around here, we have "Kings Island" but there are many around. They hire talented kids, who have devoted lots of time and energy and dedication to their craft, no doubt. I respect them. But I *run* from them. Give me Louden Waintright III or Bobby Dylan or Tom Waits any day. The swing era folks had it right, in my opinion. Check out Jimmy Rushing, Ella Fitzgerald, Frank Sinatra ("At the Sands") or even Rosemary Clooney. They knew where the "one" was but also knew that taking your sweet time and *just missing it* on purpose builds tension. Uncle Lama Lindsay Moon opined: >> On another musical note, I heard Sheryl Crow sing a great song on the radio. I felt like I'd heard it before, great tune, a ballad, with the chorus, "and this is ho-o-o-me..." Another line about something 'tearing me apart.' Maybe some of you know it. The thing that caught me though was one of her guitar strings sounded out of tune and that's all I could focus on. Ugh! I kept grunting! Tune the guitar! How could you record that out-of-tune string! Anyone else hear it? To me, Sheryl's voice often sounds flat. Is it me?>> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:04:24 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: I'm Cindy and I'm New, njc really Nice job, Catherine. After welcoming so many people so many times, I don't know how to do it with a fresh "take" on it right now. That you have made a welcome chocked full of Joni references and humor, in the JMDL tradition, was not lost on me. Well done, Scout. 100% A+ All the best, Lama Catherine McKay wrote: >>> Welcome, Cindy. There are many popular topics, both Joni and non - they come and go, marked by lovers and styles of clothes. Many of the people at this party have met, some on a regular basis (you will soon learn about Joni-fests big and small). It's a friendly bunch of people, but they talk too much - they talk too open and free. It can drive you crazy sometimes, but, if you've got too many doubts,and there's no good reception for ya, you can just tune it out. (That was pretty pathetic, but it's JC (Joni content.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:33:45 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: A.I. NJC - --- Tyler Hewitt wrote: > Are me and my partner the only people on Earth who > really liked A.I.? > Probably not! > My feeling was that people didn't like what appeared > on the surface to be a (kind of) happy ending but on > further reflection turned out to be deeply > disturbing. I found the whole thing quite disturbing. > I think A.I. may be a sort of Blade Runner: Ignored > and under appreciated at first, but in ten years or > so > will be seen as a classic. I loved Blade Runner. The thing about AI is, I do keep thinking about it and wondering about it, so it's possible I may end up liking it in the end. I'd probably see it again, but not for a while (like I said - disturbing.) ______________________________________________________________________ File your taxes online! http://taxes.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:42:38 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: (njc) Smart This&That - --- colin wrote: > > i.e., ways to keep terrorists > > from slipping through our borders. > > according to news yesterday, 70% of knives got thru > security at airports and 30% > of guns. How do they know, if they got through security? ______________________________________________________________________ File your taxes online! http://taxes.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:45:59 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: (njc)Artificial Intelligence and human arrogance, andtossing away the no longer fresh, new, useful... - --- colin wrote: > didn't occur to me they were robots too. it did > occur to me that their necks were > too long and thing to support their heads. Ha! That's what I thought too. Never mind just their necks - how did they manage to stand up at all? They were too wispy and long and didn't appear to have much in the way of bones at all, so how did they manage to stay up? I did kind of like Walt's suggestion that they might be robots too. Or maybe they were "real" people and they thought Haley was the real one and that humans were the robots (or inferior race, or whatever.) ______________________________________________________________________ File your taxes online! http://taxes.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:51:35 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: A.I. NJC - --- colin wrote: > > This is what I liked about it, though: the idea > that human happiness and satisfaction was something > that could be achieved literally after eons of > sitting and waiting patiently, > > But it wasn't! he was a ROBOT!!!!!!! > > human longing is far from easily satisfied. the fact > that people search to be satified in all the wrong > ways/places is indeed very sad. Humans and their > emtions are ahything but banal. Every time I see the word "robot", I think "rodot" - the way my son used to spell it (mixing his b's and d's.) There are many stories about people who would give anything they could for however brief a period of happiness. Fairy tales are full of that stuff. The Little Mermaid - in the Andersen version (if I remember this right), she was given human legs so she could leave the sea and go and find and marry this prince she fell in love with but, in exchange for that, every step she took on land felt like she was walking on daggers (in the Disney version, she gave up her voice.) I see this film the same as a fairy tale - and fairy tales are pretty scary. I can understand someone willing to take only one day of happiness with the person he most loved if that was all he could have (even if he is a rodot.) ______________________________________________________________________ File your taxes online! http://taxes.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:57:31 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: I'm Cindy and I'm New, njc really - --- "Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama)" wrote: > Nice job, Catherine. > > After welcoming so many people so many times, I > don't know how to do it with > a fresh "take" on it right now. It helps if you go underground for a while, like me. Then it all becomes new again (ha.) ______________________________________________________________________ File your taxes online! http://taxes.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:47:29 EST From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: A.I. NJC > > Reuben: This is what I liked about it, though: the idea that human happiness and satisfaction was something that could be achieved literally after eons of sitting and waiting patiently, > > Colin: But it wasn't! he was a ROBOT!!!!!!! Reuben again: But that's what was so ironic about it. We're too fragile and fleeting for our own good! Our bodies couldn't possibly last long enough to sort it all out. Our impending demise keeps us from achieving (not in all cases, of course, but generally speaking...)what we have the ability to achieve. I thought it was a cool idea... Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 6:21:37 UTC From: Gerald McNamara Subject: Re: Hello Melbourne (NJC) on Wed, 20 Mar, 2002, Willy the Shake asked: >Are there any JMDLers out there in Melbourne? and Bob Muller replied: >I know of at least one; Gerald McNamara, an incredibly nice guy, now me: I'm way behind in reading my digests, so I only just found this and, while it's nice of you to say so Bob, try telling that to my wife ! She called me all kinds of nasty names after I got home at 2:30 this morning. I blamed Wayne The Train Hancock - I went to his show here in Melbourne last night and he played for over 3 and 1/2 hours. My friend wrote down the setlist - 58 songs. Go hog wild ! Now, he's one person for whom I can't find ANY kinda Joni connection. -Gerald ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 01:24:32 EST From: CoyoteRick@aol.com Subject: New CD Player Hey Gang: Over the weekend, while nursing a tired and unshaven boyfriend on the verge of coma with the worst case of the flu I have seen, my CD player died. At my house, the stereo system mystifies me. I usually have to call Al, the self-proclaimed Sound Guy when anything goes wrong. Well, Al-thesoundguy (he s ays it in one breath), pronounced my player dead and off we went to the stereo store. Al-thesoundguys' sage advice is always, buy cheap -- buy again, so too many dollars later, we are back home with a Cadillac charged with doing the job of a Chevy. This thing is amazing. You can hook a computer keyboard into the front of it and key in the artist name and other information for 400 discs. Handy as hell. So, several hours and even more beers (MGD only, thank you) later, Al-thesoundguy has me all set to go. I can choose to listen to the entire catalogue of an artist (if I have all of 'em), or even what I have of 'em, a theme (lounge music), or listen to a collection of CDs (as categorized) just right for a certain occasion or mood: 1. Rick's Picks 2. Female Vocalists 3. Cocktails 4. Dinner 5. Brad's Picks 6. Latin Music 7. Sex and Romance (not to be missed) 8. Pool and Party Now, my poor NJC friends are saying, where is the JC? Well, Al-thesoundman is a JM fan. I was quite surprised, given his surly and bearded demeanor. But a devoted fan he is. Like me, he is a middle-to-late period guy. Still cringing as he frequently referred to JM as a *cool chick singer,* after our heart-to-heart chat about Joni's output, I left my musical fate in his tobacco-stained/inked, yet keyboard-ready hands. In the Joni Mitchell Artist mode, he left Blue and C&S forward, excluding Mingus and Hits and Misses. The losers were relegated to another lesser system in another part of the house. He even left H in the mix, beyond my protests, given my emotional aversion to that piece of work. Of course, DED (his favorite as well) had a place of prominence - Disc 200. Since then, until I left for San Diego today (Hi Lindsay!) I have been self-endulged with my favorite Joni sounds. Between trips to the bedroom with bowls of healing soups, I have happily and automatically shuffled between 30-odd years of output. It's been serendipitous having a boyfriend racked with fever not saying "shut that off -- she's too depressing!" Over the course of these days, I have learned a deeper appreciation for H. Setting aside age-old emotional aversions. Even the prior stranger to me, TTT, which has lived in the CD rack for years has become a friend. I feel indebted to Al-thesoundguy. He even explained Happiness is the Best Face Lift and parental disapproval in a touching way. He related a story of parental abuse that made any other I've heard irrelevant. Sometimes I take JM for granted -- like she will always be there -- always recording. When one ponders the fact that she is getting older, the state of the music business, and the next may be the last -- reflecting on the amazing output of the last thirty years is just staggering. But look at me -- a travel-torn Coyote -- telling this to the choir. H, for the first time, is staying in my new Cadillac CD player. No regrets, Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California "Only fools are afraid to be burned by fire..." ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #137 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?