From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #120 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, March 17 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 120 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- You can fool some of the people ... njc [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Kind words for Dolly(njc) [FredNow@aol.com] Re: nJc of the people [Vince Lavieri ] energy & martinis ["Kate Bennett" ] Flawed election njc [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Rufus Wainwright in concert (NJC) [Richard Goldman ] Re: Me too!, njc [colin ] Re: Me too!, njc [colin ] Re: Me too!, njc ["Dolphie Bush" ] colins usa itinerary njc ["Kate Bennett" ] This land is your land ... njc [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Me too!, njc [colin ] Re: colins usa itinerary njc [colin ] Re: Me too!, njc ["gene mock" ] Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC ["Kakki" ] NJC Killer Condoms/Films ["Blair Fraipont" ] Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Bush...big foreign companies...globalism (NJC) ["Brenda" wrote: >We do have the sense >that we ARE the government. Most Americans still feel they have power >to change their government'd direction anytime they decide to do so. We do >not yet have to bow to some group of elites who tell us what to do. Kakki, let me start up front with a preemptive apology for what will probably offend you; personal attack is not my intent, I genuinely like you a lot (from what I know of here on the list and a few private e-mails), and I really don't want to start a big whoop. I guess I could exercise some restraint and just not respond when I read something like your quote above even though it really pushes my button; I feel like some crow who saw something shiny and feels compelled to swoop down to get it (does this qualify as Joni content?). However, most Americans do *not* feel this way; most Americans fell helpless to change their government's direction. Yes, we do theoretically have the power, which is nice, but in real world practice it's not that simple, in fact, it's moot. Very powerful financial/political/military concerns and interests (yes, "elite" ... Eisenhower's astute admonition against "the military-industrial complex" is a reality) control the government's direction, and to believe otherwise would be almost charmingly idealistic if it weren't so dangerously naive. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:58:05 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Kind words for Dolly(njc) RobSher50@aol.com >Dear Fred, > >I am so with you on Alison Krauss! I could listen to her sing forever! >She has a voice that comes out with such effortless beauty. Amazing! Loving Alison as you do, then, I'm pretty sure you would also love Nickel Creek and their eponymously titled album. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:05:19 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: nJc of the people Randy Remote wrote: > Great words, Vince. I'm with you on all of it except > > > Failing their > > candidacies, perhaps Gov Gray Davis might be out best choice as, while > > lacking vision, is a technican with his heart in the right place, > I defer to you of course in your far greater knowlege of Davis. His image out here is as I described, and his attraction as a candidate connects to his bringing California's electoral votes to the table. At any rate, his judicial nominees must surely be better than what we are getting now.. But thanks for your insights into Davis; I value your opinion highly. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:34:46 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: energy & martinis >>I have this sense that some people have interpreted my remarks about it being expensive to mean that I am either opposing it or am trying to discourage it.<<< Not at all Kakki..I appreciate your courage in expressing your opinions on this matter, but this doesn't come across as you opposing the issue in my opinion. >Counting on enjoying a big ole Martini at Jonifest this year!< After which I hope we can convince her to share some of her hidden, award winning, songwriting talents with us! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:48:53 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Flawed election njc w evans wrote: >> Speaking of Bush, I about did a Danny Thomas coffee take this AM when >>I read in the paper that Dubya is not going to recognize Mr. Mugabe, the >>President of Zimbabwe, because the ELECTION WAS FLAWED!!!! >> >> GEORGE BUSH?? Not acknowledging an elected official because **their** >>election was flawed???? As Paul Simon would say..."who do you think you're >>fooling?" >> >> Luckily I didn't have a mouthful of java, because I was laughing so hard >>I almost coughed up a lung. > >This is the second time in the last few days someone's said something like >this (and I'm not attributing the quotes because I happen to like the >posters very much and don't want any debating to get personal) and if it >were still Dec-00 or Jan-01 I could see saying this, but last summer there >were multiple reports about recounts, including one in >the New York Times (hardly a big supporter of the GOP) declaring that >under every conceivable recount scenario in Florida Bush would have wound >up with the most votes, regardless of what the Supreme Court decided. >(and no, I am not a Republican) >There aren't any facts left under which to claim that anyone stole the >election--- a year ago, maybe, but not now. All recount scenarios aside, there are indeed facts left under which the claim can assuredly be made that Bush stole the election, with big help from his brother Jeb, governor of the state in which the election was stolen ("but it's just a coincidence that his brother is governor of Florida," I can hear people protesting. Yeah, right.) Here's one fact: Secretary of State Katherine Harris hired a firm to "cleanse" the voter rolls of felons. Unfortunately, many people, perhaps thousands, who had the misfortune to have the same name as a felon but were themselves not a felon, were prevented from voting. And guess what? Many of them were black! (Just a "coincidence" that most would have voted for Gore?) For more on this see: http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/12/04/voter_file/ Here's another fact: 2000 Jews, most of them elderly, did not intend to vote for Pat Buchanan and were confused by the butterfly ballot. Even Buchanan himself admits this. 2000 votes that would mostly have gone for Gore, and there's your election. For more on this I refer you to the book "Jews for Buchanan," by John Nichols, published in November 2001 by New Press. (By the way, stealing presidential elections is nothing new, nor is it the exclusive domain of any one party but rather the province of big money interests; Chicago Mayor Richard J. Daley helped JFK's father steal the 1960 election. In this sense, Ralph Nader, Michael Moore, and many others are correct that there isn't much difference between Democrats and Republicans. However, as we can surely see now, Nader was very wrong that there isn't *any* difference, and those minor differences have become very crucial.) - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:51:30 -0800 From: Richard Goldman Subject: Re: Rufus Wainwright in concert (NJC) Hi all... I too was at this concert, at the historic Wilshire-Ebell Theater in LA a week ago Friday. Wow indeed. His first real headlining tour, Rufus was more brilliant and vocally more perfect than I've ever heard him. I was at 6 of the shows on this tour. I too said 'hi' to Loudon in the lobby, when he got up during intermission to use, yes! the regular Men's RestRoom upstairs! He's such a kick, and so funny. He wouldn't tell me if he was going to join Rufus, Teddy and Martha on "One Man Guy" or not. So ... quel surprise! when he and his ex, Kate, joined their kids for the most amazing rendition of that Irving Berlin song. You could hear a pin drop during the silences. During the break...Kate played the piano, and Loudon and Martha did a little slow 2-step onstage behind Rufus, who smirked, thinking the audience was woo-hoo'ing for him! Jerome...you forgot to mention the final encore! after the family's "What'll I Do?", Kate and Rufus came back out. Now remember, the historic Wilshire-Ebell has played host to many many amazing musicians over the years, including the late great Judy Garland. So...it was with such wonderful and appropriate magic that Kate accompanied her son on the piano, as he sang one of, if not THE most beautiful version of "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" I have ever heard. A lot of the audience had wept during "What'll I Do?" and ... we continued to weep during "Rainbow...". What a night! Such beauty. One of the highlights was his outfit! This suit! satin, and fitted matching jacket and pants, charcoal black with little white "#" marks all over it, with a satin shirt underneath of diagonal black and white stripes. Gorgeous! All of his Dreamworks Music label people were in the audience too, so the show was the most polished and seamless of any on this tour (I've been to 6). Dame Edna Everidge was in attendance as well, since...she is now in the cast of the TV show 'Ally McBeal', and ...on April 15, Loudon will guest appear as ....her LOVE interest! (Rufus said when he announced this factoid to us back east a week earlier: "so ...I guess my dad is gay after all.." . He loves to poke fun at his dad. The 4 of them, Kate, Loudon, Rufus and Martha had performed "What'll I Do?" in New York, about a year ago, and also...at Kate's mom/Rufus's grandmother's funeral. SO very touching! For those of you with the capability, a friend of a friend took a 30 second digital video with her cooler-than-cool digital camera, of one of Rufus' encores... him doing the song he covered for the film "Big Daddy", called "Instant Pleasure", which was absolutely fabulous (to use the "f" word). Download and watch it from here: http://homepage.mac.com/richardsfgoldperson It's a gem. Rufus has oft named Joni Mitchell as one of his primary songwriting influences, and he too is truly one of the great singer/songwriters of our age, a brilliant young genius, in this fans opinion. We'll hopefully see great things from him in the future. I attended the 2 shows up here in San Francisco as well. Kate McGarrigle made it to both of them. Martha was the opening act for the 2nd show, and she is a fantastic chanteuse in her own right: truly amazing. Rufus joined her on one duet, and Kate joined the 2 of them in a trio, of one of Martha's songs. Martha just shines. Encores here in SF included his first ever song, "Liberty Cabbage" about his ambiguous (or is it ambivalent?) relationship with The United States of America. I *love* this song, coming from a gay person's heart as well. Also, he and Martha did the French version of "Nights of Miami" (Nuits de Miami), which fairly brought down the house both nights. The SF audience was 10 times more enthusiastic than the LA audience, and went apeshit many times, Rufus had to 'shhh..!' us and tell us to "stop already!" a couple of times. Joni would have loved it (I wonder if she was at the LA show - - - many 'celebs' were slid in after lights went down... and before lights went up) Richard in San Francisco - still under the Rufus spell n.p. - 'live' recording of Rufus and Martha singing 'Nuits de Miami' - --- >Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 00:24:21 -0800 >From: "Jerome ." >Subject: Rufus Wainwright in concert (NJC) > >Hey all... > Just returned from a fantastic experience: Rufus Wainwright in concert. A >really funny and talented guy. For a swishy fella, he has a surprisingly >rabid following of young women. Teddy Thompson was the opening act and was >an absolute treat. Teddy is a member of Rufus' touring band so he came back >all of fifteen minutes after his set ended. Also, I literally bumped into >Rufus' dad, Loudon, in the lobby. And Rufus' sister, Martha sings backup. >She's great, too. Definite highlight was Teddy, Martha, and Rufus trading >verses on the senior Wainwright's "One Man Guy." As Rufus is so fond of >saying, "Fabulous!." Of course, nothing topped the set closer. Rufus and >Martha were joined by Loudon and mother Kate McGarrigle for a stunning >version of "What'll I Do." Wow. Wow. Did I say "wow" already? Anyhow, if >you know anything of Rufus and like what you've heard, check him out. On >more than one occasion, I found myself thinking that Joni herself would >approve-even with all of her high standards intact. If that doesn't sell >it, I don't know what would. Anyhow, that's all. Hope everyone's feeling >good. I sure am. > >- -J ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:16:12 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: FW: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC Kakki, in part I do agree with you. It is up to each of us to do our part in steering the direction of our society. I have always felt it was important to vote, even though at times I felt like I was voting for the lesser evil. I have also felt it was important to join in protest at times when I felt it might help the cause I believed inl. The last election, to me, demonstrated that on one hand each & every vote really did count, yet on the other hand they didn't. But that is another subject.... The part I don't agree with is that your opinion that some people may have been brainwashed or not educated properly. I am of the opinion that it has to do with apathy & disillusionment based on observations that so many politicians are hugely influenced by those who fund their campaigns. Money is the name of the game which leads some people to think that they as individuals no longer have an influence in their government. In this case the "they" would be corporate interests or lobbyists or even those in the pentagon, to bring this back to where we started. In spite of all this cynicism, I still cling (by the tips of my hardworking calloused fingers) to the belief that each of us can indeed change the world & make it a better place. >>Obviously something happened along the way to sort of brainwash people into thinking that "They," whoever "They" are, run the government. Ever since then when I hear that kind of talk I remind people that it is up to "We" and not "They" to steer the direction of our society. I blame it on a lack of proper education.<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:20:11 -0800 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: nJc of the people > We have the illusion of a democratic process because we can > choose between (usually two) candidates. But the "demo" part of > democracy, the whole idea, is that people from various regions > pick someone to represent them in the government. We do get > to pick, but they represent the business interests that put them > up, once they get in. A slight of hand. > RR > funny, except for having just one party, this is what russia did under communism. gawd! do things get turned around and flipped upside down. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 22:43:13 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Me too!, njc > Plus > you've got the cities of San Francisco in the north & Los Angeles in the > south, both diverse and fascinating cultural centers, each in its own > special way. > I don't like cities at all. However, you are tight, I am sure I would love Washigton staet and all the others you mentioned. The northern states and Canada really appeal to me. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 22:47:10 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Me too!, njc > Yes, > there are earthquakes but no tornados or hurricanes! and snakes! my terror. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:48:09 -0600 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Me too!, njc yes, colin. we do have tornadoes here but no earthquakes, at least not ones you can feel, yet. There are snakes everywhere though. I was bitten by a copperhead 3 summers ago while in the yard. quite the nightmare. mack > > Yes, > > there are earthquakes but no tornados or hurricanes! > > and snakes! my terror. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:57:04 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: colins usa itinerary njc vancouver bc is a must then...incredibly beautiful... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 19:04:02 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: This land is your land ... njc "gene mock" wrote: >california is the prettiest state in the union. Having visited many times, even having lived there for a while, if I were forced to pick one state I might pick California ... it is a gem and incredibly diverse. Did you know that Redwood National Park is the least visited national park in the US? Fine with me, less crowded, although I hope everyone gets at least one chance to visit in their lifetime. It's my church ... the confluence of ocean, mountain, and a cathedral of giant trees. But I also have to put in an equally good word for the whole Pacific Northwest, starting in Northern California, extending up through Oregon, Washington, and into British Columbia, Canada. It's nothing short of pure magic. The Southwest--Arizona and New Mexico--is magic. And the mountain states--Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, and Colorado--have their magic, too. Also, let's not forget that bit of paradise we "acquired" ... Hawaii. They don't call it paradise for nothing! - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 00:26:05 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Me too!, njc > There are snakes everywhere though. I was bitten by a > copperhead 3 summers ago while in the yard. quite the nightmare. Then I am not visiting you! > > > mack ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 00:26:48 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: colins usa itinerary njc Kate Bennett wrote: > vancouver bc is a must then...incredibly beautiful... > yes. I would love to. John has been there and agrees with you! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:23:30 -0800 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: Me too!, njc yeah, but here in california even our poisonous snakes rattle and their not aggressive by nature. gene in beautiful cold calif. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dolphie Bush" To: "joni" Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 2:48 PM Subject: Re: Me too!, njc > yes, colin. we do have tornadoes here but no earthquakes, at least not ones > you can feel, yet. There are snakes everywhere though. I was bitten by a > copperhead 3 summers ago while in the yard. quite the nightmare. > > mack > > > > > > > Yes, > > > there are earthquakes but no tornados or hurricanes! > > > > and snakes! my terror. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:40:30 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC Kate wrote: > The part I don't agree with is that your opinion that some people may have > been brainwashed or not educated properly. I think they brainwash themselves and a lot of that does stem from apathy and disillusionment. I also think people hearing other people constantly tell that that it is all an "illusion" and that some big unknown secret force rules everything anyway so their vote doesn't matter also after awhile of hearing it enough serves to demoralize and discourage people, too. If the schools were teaching the precepts of our government, constitution and system the proper way, I cannot see how people would forget that they have a voice when they come of voting age. Maybe some people, if they don't win on everything they vote for, think it is worthless to vote. There have been many, many things that have happened in the vote over my lifetime that made me ill, and even scared enough to want to leave the country but it never stopped me from voting. I can live with differing views and don't feel that I must always have my way or else it's all unfair to me. I have personally worked on grass roots efforts where, in a very short time, people prevailed over powerful interests because of the intelligence and energies they put into the effort. I am not of the mindset that the "government" should always automatically do for me, like they are some parent that must always know all my needs and give me I want. To me, that kind of mindset belongs to people who want to relinquish their freedom as individuals and I think individual freedom is the most important thing to protect and fight for. The original founders of the country had such a fill of being dictated to by their European overlords that they set up the U.S. to where the people tell the government what to do and not vice versa. I may be totally naive but that it what I've always been taught and understand and their writings on the subject are there for all to read. If other people come along and try to tell me that's not really the way it is, that is their interpretation and not mine. >In this case the "they" would be corporate interests or lobbyists or even those in the > pentagon, to bring this back to where we started. I'm really hesitant to ask this question and I'm not aiming it at you specialifcally Kate, because others here, too, have made these allusions to "corporations" here quite a lot with the implication that they are the root of all evil. What is this all about? Are all corporations evil, even the ones who process and deliver our food to us, the ones who bring us alternative energy, the ones who bring us medicine, the ones who bring us everything most need to live their lives. Are all lobbyists evil, even the ones who lobby for the environment, like the Sierra Club or education or for consumer protections? Corporations to me are really just collectives of people, although not everyone is paid equally no matter what they put in. Sure there are lobbyists who are corrupt but not all lobbyists and there are laws or can be laws to regulate them. People who depend on their job to put food on their table and a roof over their head. I read about these organizations who vilify the "corporation" and wonder what this vilification does to improve or enhance our community. They wish the downfall of millions of peoples' livelihoods? Probably a third of the people in the U.S. if not more, work for corporations. Sure it is not neccessaily fun to have to go sit in a office 8 hours a day when we'd rather be off doing what we really love to do. Sure we'd all rather have a bigger nicer house like the boss, but that is not all there is to life. Hasn't it always been that way since the beginning of time - people have to work, often hard, to make a living and survive? I get the feeling that these anit-coporate types think they have some better enlightened answer to it all but I'll be damned if I can figure it out, other than that they want a complete revolution and forced redistribution of the "wealth." Anyone who thinks and champions that is a total nihilist, wanting to destroy many to satisfy some ideal of what *they* want reality to be. Revolution and redistribution has already been tried before in the past 80 years and its fruit has been the death, slaughter and deprivation of tens of millions of human beings. It doesn't have a good track record. I've read some that some think it can finally work here in the U.S. because there is so much wealth and resources to pick off. I think that it an extremely dangerous illusion. Or is it just a radical posture to keep certain sectors of the society on their toes and I'm being too alarmed by it all? I got over not having a lot of money and every material thing I desired long ago, like in my early 20s. Life is much more than having resentment against what someone else has and life is way to short to be obsessed with "getting my fair share." Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:08:14 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: NJC from politics to religion & more >>>From what I've said, does anyone know if this belief system is expressed in any known religion?<<< Anne, what you wrote sounds close to what I believe...& the closest I come to describing it is Native American spirituality...some call this type of spiritualty pagan (I took an online test & that is what I was told I was!) though I don't really call myself that because some people view that word negatively (I don't but some do)...I also love Taoism & Mysticism which really seem to have more questions than answers! The only thing that you would differ from in Native American spirituality is that you don't want ceremonies. >>Remember that when we consider the matter of John Walker Lindh<< Vince, thanks for your long thoughtful post. The above is especially compelling to me. I don't really have enough information on his situation yet & would need to know what he actually did & what he actually knew & how he was actually involved in the organization. I have known many young kids who have become involved with "religious" cults in their search for their own identity. JWL really picked the really wrong guy at the really wrong time & I am not excusing his choice, just drawing a common parallel here. I guess I feel there may be some room for compassion, depending on the circumstances as they emerge. Go ahead, flame away at me for this one! >>>The best source on alternative energy is our own US Department of Energy. I work closely with the DOE on several projects and am consistently impressed with the passionate dedication to alternatives and renewables of many in its employ. DOE's web site also has scads of information.<<< Rick, thanks for chiming in...I was hoping you would, with all of your experience. I will check out this site you recommended ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 20:07:49 -0500 From: chiaroscuro@SNET.Net Subject: Re: Me too!, njc >Bree wrote: >I know Europeans eat much smaller portions than Americans. You would die >if you could see the amount of food consumed at a buffet I have been to. .... Have you ever been to Italy?? My gawd ... people eat all the time there! The portions were not that small! Heather - who's weight gain proved it :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 20:24:09 -0500 From: chiaroscuro@SNET.Net Subject: Re: NJC from politics to religion There should be a movie "Attack of the Killer Condoms". Could be like that huge bubble on that show The Prisoner. The huge condom mysteriously captures you and the spermicide ..... I need another drink. Heather PS- it's just when I saw Killer Condoms... well, I couldn't help myself :-) At 12:06 PM 3/16/02 -0500, Blair Fraipont wrote: > Anne, this part sort of reminds me of a wiccan related content, > how the prayer influences a certain force. But, yet again, I am not a > wiccan, and it just sounded sort of pagan at first, but I really like > your ideas. I myself have been a-tossin' and a-turnin' about the concept > of god and my near faithlessness in it, but it seems recently, that last > thing I would want to do is go hop on over to the church. I was watching > this film called "Killer Condoms". Has anyone seen it? It is quite good. > WEll, the point is, this lunatic doctor at this christian hospital had > been sending out "killer condoms" to do gods work and punish all of those > who dont wait till they are married, then have children. It was a grave > reminder of all the fanatics out there (from all religious walks of life) > and gave me a big step stage left. Yet, "Killer Condoms" is not the > definitive moment in my ideals of religion, just a passing humourous comment. > I like your ideas though, I feel that there should be something > to belive in, and that the sense of a "Mystery" that may be welcoming or > forboding is a joy to live with. > BLair :) > NP: "The Meek shall Inherit NOthing" Frank Zappa > > > > >I also think the purpose of all this is to >>nurture the God in all of us and in everything. And >>this also explains prayer as a sort of subliminal >>communication that can, if conditions are right, >>influence the force that is God. > >_________________________________________________________________ >Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 20:33:51 -0500 From: chiaroscuro@snet.net Subject: Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC Look at the people making these quotes ..... power autocrats, no? Isn't that what the US is accused of? I just found it odd or was that the point? ?Heather? At 10:56 PM 3/15/02 -0800, Kakki wrote: >"There is someone wiser than any of us, and that is everybody." -- Napoleon > > > The masses have little time to think. And how >incredible is the >willingness of modern man to >believe. -- Benito Mussolini ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:15:15 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: You can fool some of the people ... njc Fred wrote: >However, most Americans do *not* feel this way; most Americans fell helpless > to change their government's direction. And I feel very dismayed by that. > Very powerful financial/political/military concerns and > interests (yes, "elite" ... Eisenhower's astute admonition against "the > military-industrial complex" is a reality) control the government's > direction, and to believe otherwise would be almost charmingly idealistic if > it weren't so dangerously naive. I heard that repeated to me over and over again when I was a teenager and young adult in the 60s/early 70s. Who were the people telling us that and what may have been their motives or self-interest in doing so? I was open-minded at the time and was going to be sure when I got out in the world to look out for those evil powerful big business and military elites who were oppressing me and my fellow peers. I sang the songs, wrote the poems and got the (tie-dye) t-shirt. Then I grew up and actually worked in a few of those big corporations and military industrial concerns, and now work representing a few of them. They are all controlled by layer after layer of law and regulation on all sides that prevents them from acting with malfeasance whether it be from the labor law side to the enviromental to the financial compliance or to the unlawful government influence side. There are also layers upon layers of laws that prevent them from having some kind of special "in" with the government. Of course, many of these laws came about precisely because of people who did protest against unethical and unfair practices in business. But those laws have been tightly in place and enforced for years now and to still look at these "complexes" with a view from a 1930s or 1960s mindset is really not being up to date or currently relevant. The laws that are in place will eventually and do get the ones who are out of line everytime, trust me. Arthur Anderson going down shows how it works, and they are not just one example - there are many Arthur Anderson-type situations that go down every day but don't get the publicity. Yes Fred, I am charmingly idealistic ;-) and still naive on many aspects of life but not on this one. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:35:56 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC I thought there was irony in both statements. Look how those guys both ended up. Kakki > Look at the people making these quotes ..... >power autocrats, no? Isn't that what the US >is accused of? I just found it odd or was that >the point? > > ?Heather? > > At 10:56 PM 3/15/02 -0800, Kakki wrote: > >"There is someone wiser than any of us, and that is everybody." -- Napoleon > > > > > The masses have little time to think. And how >incredible is the > >willingness of modern man to >believe. -- Benito Mussolini ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:57:36 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Bush...big foreign companies...globalism (NJC) Brenda, >So the fact that there may be some direct or indirect benefit implies that the right to be > critical is precluded? (Even though we enjoy the reciprocal benefit of their participation > in our market?) No, the fact that I have to hear their constant drumbeat of criticism and challenges against Americans while they benefit from our market (and miliary protection and other support) means I can reciprocate with criticism and challenges in kind, even while I may enjoy the benefit of what they bring to our market, including the comfort and excellent engineering of my German car. > Our economic fate is more and more intertwined with the rest of the world and likewise > the rest of the world with us. And it seems that nationalism will have a decreasingly > important place as the world economy evolves. In my view, all participants should > have a voice, whether we like what they have to say or not. They can say all they want and if I say anything back I deserve to be accused of trying to stifle them? Now THAT is stifling. Our ecomonic fate has been entwined with the rest of the world for eons as were many civilizations dating back thousands of years. I personally don't agree that we are obligated to bend over to people from other countries on any whim of criticism they have of us. They can say all they want and sometimes so can I. I guess I'm just not enlightened enough but I don't care. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 21:28:06 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Alice Coltrane NJC For those who are interested, there is a really good interview with ALice COltrane in the new WIRE. It is a bit pricey in the US, but I am assuming not as much in Great Britain. I had no idea how she came to be involved with her late husband, John Coltrane, so the interview was quite an introduction. She probably got alot of backlash from the jazz audience who may have thought she was using the Coltrane name to make it for herself, yet I am not sure and that is just me speculating. Nontheless, a good read. Blair _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 21:24:29 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: NJC Killer Condoms/Films What is even better about this movie, "Killer Condoms" is that it is all in German and takes place in New York City. NOw, that is worth the whole flick. Speaking of really good flicks, I just watched, Lily Tomlin in the movie version of "Search of Inteligent Life in the Universe" A rental well worth the time and money! I was lucky to see the stage performance last year when it was brought back to broadway. Blair NP:Let's Stay together, Rev. AL Green > >There should be a movie "Attack of the Killer Condoms". Could be like that >huge bubble on that show The Prisoner. The huge condom mysteriously >captures you and the spermicide ..... >I need another drink. >Heather >PS- it's just when I saw Killer Condoms... well, I couldn't help myself :-) > _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 21:47:14 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people "This world is shattered The wise are mourning The fools are joking Oh, what does it matter? The wash needs ironing And the fire needs stoking" --Joni Mitchell << "There is someone wiser than any of us, and that is everybody." -- Napoleon The masses have little time to think. And how incredible is the willingness of modern man to believe. -- Benito Mussolini >> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 19:42:24 -0800 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Bush...big foreign companies...globalism (NJC) > Our ecomonic fate has been entwined with the rest of the world for > eons as were many civilizations dating back thousands of years. I > personally don't agree that we are obligated to bend over to people > from other countries on any whim of criticism they have of us. They > can say all they want and sometimes so can I. I guess I'm just not > enlightened enough but I don't care. > The world economy today is very different from what it was even 50 years ago because of advances in technology, equity markets and transportation. It seems simplistic to compare it to civilizations dating back thousands of years when it comes to political economies. I fear you've missed my point. Never did I say or imply that we are obligated to bend over to anyone. And I don't think that anyone should be stifled. Including those who may be viewed as ungrateful. Or their critics. I simply think that there is a legitimate place for criticism, especially from our allies and their citizens who benefit (or not) from trade with us. (And I do mean real criticism. Tabloid reporting should be taken for exactly what it is.) BTW - I do think that fairly or unfairly, U.S. policy has become synonymous with globalism for many critics, including those within our own country who would be labeled "anti-American." I suppose that comes with the territory when you are deemed leader of the free world. (I hope that doesn't read as being facetious, because that is certainly not my intent.) Brenda n.p.: Iron Chef (Can't help myself!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 22:43:19 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Me too!, njc In a message dated 3/16/02 1:02:34 PM, mark.travis@gte.net writes: << Fascinating & beautiful country. >> Note to Colin: Before we all become too US-centric here, I would like to mention that I have been to England a few times and I, for one, have always been delighted, indeed, to discover a veritable surplus of lovely dells and perfectly charming little glades. Take care. XO, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 00:55:56 EST From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: (njc)Hey, Mike (and all), what's the dif between VG-8 and VG-88? Hey, Paz, Marian (on the list): "The VG-8 is Roland's virtual guitar system (it has since been replaced by the VG-88, which Paz says isn't as good, but you can still find VG-8's for sale if you look around)." I was wondering -- what changes were made between the VG-8 and the VG-88, and do most p[eople agree with you (that the VG-8) was better? I don't play guitar, and given the increasing numbness in my hands, don't know if I'm going to start learning it anytime soon -- but i was curious. (As I often am, when something's "improved" for the worse ;-) Ciao, Walt ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 21:45:20 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people My apologies to all who were offended. Some the cynicism and sense of absurdity around here has started to rub off on me. Kakki > "This world is shattered > The wise are mourning > The fools are joking > Oh, what does it matter? > The wash needs ironing > And the fire needs stoking" > > --Joni Mitchell > > << "There is someone wiser than any of us, and that is everybody." -- > Napoleon > > > The masses have little time to think. And how incredible is the willingness > of modern man to believe. -- Benito Mussolini >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 01:30:38 EST From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: Gail Anne Dorsey's Passion Play (sjc)-- does she have anything out? Brenda said: <> Wow -- with those credentials, and with a voice like Phoebe's, I'm sold. Does she have anything out? Assume a certain someone is preparing space on a future covers CD for this -- lovely song, apparently lovely singer. Walt ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 22:29:50 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Bush...big foreign companies...globalism (NJC) I promise this will be my last post for awhile (and they all cheered). Brenda wrote: > The world economy today is very different from what it was even 50 years ago > because of advances in technology, equity markets and transportation. It seems > simplistic to compare it to civilizations dating back thousands of years when it comes > to political economies. I know it's different but people are people are people and they've always traded with each other even if it was in less sophisticated ways. > I fear you've missed my point. Never did I say or imply that we are obligated to bend > over to anyone. And I don't think that anyone should be stifled. Including those who > may be viewed as ungrateful. Or their critics. I read too much of the foreign press and should really tune it out for awhile. I felt such a rash of unwarranted criticism and contemptuous commentary coming from some of it immediately after 9/11 that it really changed the way I view some things. I also heard contemptuous and unempathetic in person from some people from other countries at that time and I guess I have just had my fill for awhile. The problem I see is that many of them DO take their information straight from tabloids or from press with an agenda. I was stunned, for example, to read outraged reactions from people in their governments automatically believing exactly what they read in the tabloids and taking it as gospel. I can't imagine this - it would be as if members of the U.S. congress picked up a story in one of our tabloids about something from another country and immediately started howling and pounding on their tables before they even consulted with official representatives of that country. Maybe it's all just high political drama that is too nuanced for me to understand. > BTW - I do think that fairly or unfairly, U.S. policy has become synonymous with > globalism for many critics, including those within our own country who would be > labeled "anti-American." I suppose that comes with the territory when you are deemed > leader of the free world. (I hope that doesn't read as being facetious, because that is > certainly not my intent.) I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I do understand how people can have a natural resentment toward a country that you have to keep hearing all the time is the "leader." I think that sets the U.S. up for a lot of hits, not always fairly. I don't understand those who think the U.S. is the only country being "imperialistic" or trying to exploit and take over the world. One can go to most any foreign country, including the third world countries, and see just as many corporations from many other countries long established there. I feel like some other countries project or try to shine all of the spotlight on the U.S. to divert others from shining the light on them. I feel we are often the convenient scapegoat and we;ve sort of endured that for a long time because we feel conscious of our wealth. After 9/11, I think people feel more sensitive to unfair or one-sided criticism. It seems like some in Europe have so much contempt for us that they could care less if we are gutted, severely wounded or even destroyed. Which gets back to some of my angry reaction or not understanding why they don't perhaps considered that if we go down it will certainly effect them, too. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #120 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?