From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #119 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, March 16 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 119 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Me too!, njc [colin ] Re: Bush (NJC) long [colin ] Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC [colin ] Re: Bush (NJC) long [colin ] Re: US involvement, NJC [colin ] Re: US involvement, NJC [colin ] Re: Bush (NJC) Long ["Kakki" ] Re: Cars and alternate tech. njc [CoyoteRick@aol.com] Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: Bush (NJC) long [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: Bush (NJC) long [anne@sandstrom.com] NJC from politics to religion [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: NJC from politics to religion ["Blair Fraipont" ] RE: Me too!, njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Gorka is God [RoseMJoy@aol.com] airport security njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Gorka is God [RoseMJoy@aol.com] RE: NJC from politics to religion [anne@sandstrom.com] Bush...big foreign companies...globalism (NJC) ["Kate Bennett" ] nJc of the people [Vince Lavieri ] compulsory voting njc ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Bush...big foreign companies...globalism (NJC) ["Brenda" ] Re: VLJC from politics to religion [Randy Remote ] which people? [FredNow@aol.com] Re: which people? [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Re: which people? [FredNow@aol.com] Re: nJc of the people [Randy Remote ] Re: VG8 - njc [Michael Paz ] Joni Mitchell book ["marianne marianne" ] Re: Cars and alternate tech. njc [Randy Remote ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 09:09:11 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Me too!, njc gene mock wrote: > california is the prettiest state in the union. here in california we have > the ocean and the ceaseless pounding of the its waves. along its shores are > protected by its redwood soldiers. I am sure Californis is beautiful. I wouls probably like it further north. Not being an expert on it, I imagine most of it is desert. Plus I don't like earthquakes. I lived in Austarlia for many years and that was rather dry and crisp. Just doesn't appeal to me. Of course I am only talking about where I lived-it ids a vast place. The mountains were green and not far away. Queensland is lush. The notheren states of the uSA appeal to me. Films set in these palces shoiw me how gorgeous it is. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 09:11:00 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long > Do I want him to use nuclear weapons?? Hell no! As a > chemist for the past 20 years and my knowledge of history, I can see > absolutely no use for nuclear weapons. Let's just pray this doesn't happen. most definately. We have so much to lose. The use of the bomb now will not be confined to two cities as it was in the 40's and now they are much more powerful. > > > Peace, > Heather > > At 03:31 PM 3/15/02 -0800, Kakki wrote: > >Colin, > > > >I have never once thought I was being personally attacked in this - I don't > >know where you get that at all. You are not getting the brunt of my > >offense. You did however, start bringing up many of the issues to begin > >with. It's natural for most American to want to defend their country, > >especially when they feel crap is being said about it. We do have the sense > >that we ARE the government. Most Americans still feel they have power to > >change their government'd direction anytime they decide to do so. We do not > >yet have to bow to some group of elites who tell us what to do. > > > >Kakki - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 09:13:24 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC In Australia voting is compulsory. That ensures a good turnout. Brenda wrote: > On 15 Mar 2002 at 15:23, Kakki wrote: > > > > > Americans > > believe and have always believed that they ARE the government "by the > > people and for the people." > > > > I can't help thinking that the majority of Americans don't believe this. If they did, > wouldn't we have a higher voter turnout? Where is the patriotism on election day? > > On March 5, California had it's lowest voter turnout on record, less than 35% of > registered voters cast ballots, which equates to a mere 22% of eligible voters > (registered and not registered). And other states have not faired much better with > elections since 9/11. > > I think this quote from Arend Lijphart, a UC San Diego political scientist speaks plainly > and directly to the point. > > "'But what kind of democracy do we have when only a third of the people vote? If > government means by and for the people, can we really call ourselves a democracy?'" > > http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-000017220mar08.story > > Brenda > > n.p.: Great Chefs - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 09:16:15 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long anne@sandstrom.com wrote: > > I've been reading the banter between you both and I > thought I was reliving > > the Revolutionary War! (JUST KIDDING!). > > My ex, who is British, was never actually willing to > concede that we'd won. Oh dear! Talk about being stuck in the past! Did he seriously think independence was abd thing? How sad! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 09:20:29 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long anne@sandstrom.com wrote: > I said: But supporting a Taliban-like culture that > opresses women? > > > Colin said: It aleady does now and it did in the past. > as the UK does and did. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait to name > just 2. > > I don't disagree that we're supporting regimes that I > consider oppressive. But I was actually talking > hypothetically. Sorry if that wasn't clear. you arew forgiven! > I meant > that if we sent teachers to countries where oppression > occurs, we would not support that kind of behavior in > the teachings. the trouble is woudl these countries allow this? Also, we have to be so careful. Not all of ideals are good. We have to be so careful not to think of different peoples with different cultures etc as bad and inferior who needucating by us suprior white folk. I want to live in a peaceful world like everyone else. I don't think ythe world has to live up to the whit wests ideals for that to happen. (I know you aren;'t suggesting that, Anne) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 09:21:42 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: US involvement, NJC > He works for the > National Weather Service. So, we can blame him for the > weather too :-) Oh good! Next it rains all day and I can't get my dogs out, I'll know just who to blame. Thanks for clarifying the blame issue for me! > > > lots of love > Anne - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 09:27:43 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: US involvement, NJC > There is no us and them. Not from what we see. You have a class sytem, even tho you say you don't. Unless of course your tv etc is crap. > From what I understand of > British history, for example, there was always an us > and them - from feudal lords to kings. If you were an > 'us' (a cerf, for example) you could never be a "them" > (a lord, or a king). That was literally the stuff of > fairy tales. So, your history most likely taught you to > think differently about your government. Nope. There are many many people who think and feel just as you do .They would consider me a traitor. I have explained already that I do not incorporate my country into my idenidty, my meaning structure. Never have and it doesn't make much sense to me. It causes dividsion and helps to keep the sense of us and them alive when we are not different from eachother. All this nationality business is false and just breeds more trouble. > > > Maybe this clarifies why we seem to take it so > personally well it shows why i don't thibnk ti is a good idea to have your country as part of your idenity. it causes trouble. > . > > lots of love > Anne - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 01:18:26 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) Long Hi Susan, > Plus because so many posts during the Clinton years were not brought to vote > there are many more posts to fill during this administration. So it's all how you see the numbers > or want to see them, on either side. Thanks for the information. I've said here before that I tuned out and turned off of national politics years ago and only recently began paying attention again so I'm still learning. > The fear with "Conservatves" is NOT that they will NOT uphold the law. But their interpretation > of it. From what I understand, conservatives do not like judicial activism which threatens to subvert constitutional rights. >I also am a staunch and strict believer in the separation of church and state. I am too, all the way. > Can't agree more, that the moderates are the majority. But they seem apathetic and wishy washy or > as I said before NO Backbone! They are the ones who need to sort out the semantics and rhetoric. > They have always been the the ones to keep the playing field level. Right now it tips one way and > then the othe , but this boat doesn't sail very smoothly or does rarely. This is due to a fears > of not being re-elected I think. I've heard and read a lot of the same criticism of moderates. They do need to find their backbones and voices and quit skulking around trying to be blandly pleasing to everyone, thinking that is what will get them re-elected. Just as an aside there was talk here recently when Riordan was running in the primary for governor sort of along those lines. Riordan (who I absolutely adore) has always been so consistently and classically liberal that most always believed or assumed he was a Democrat. Many Republicans thought he would be great as a candidate because he would appeal to a broad cross section of voters. However, he did not take any real stands during his campaign and some felt that he was just coasting on his genial personality and popularity. I heard commentary that "if people have the choice between a real Democrat and a pretend Democrat, they are going to vote for the real one." So much for geniality. A real working, activist and hopefully enlightened sorting out of the semantics and rhetoric is what is so crucially needed in these times. > However, remember before everyone had a computer? Whether it > was business or personal, nobody thoguht they would be able to afford it. We did and look how > relatively economic it is to own one yourself or to have huge networks set up through out the > world. Everyone said, they'd never do it cause it would be too expensive. I have this sense that some people have interpreted my remarks about it being expensive to mean that I am either opposing it or am trying to discourage it. I am not at all. I've supported alteratives for as long as I've heard of them, investing in them as long as 20 years ago. I'm only trying to suggest financial realities to be considered. I've worked a little in this area and have seen first-hand the numbers and they are not low. > Also, if they had earnestly dedicated themselves > to alternatives then and to the research it would have been cheaper and the technology or the new > resource may be further advanced and researched. We have to do this and NOW. We do not have a > choice, in my opinion. I remember one of my uncles telling me a story probably 30 years ago about how some people he knew back in the early 50s developed various fuel efficiency devices and who were then either paid off or threatened by some of the "big boys" to go away so there has definitely been obstruction for many years. One has to wonder how many others had developed technology 50-60 years ago that was also suppressed. >Counting on enjoying a big ole Martini at Jonifest this year! Me, too! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 05:53:46 EST From: CoyoteRick@aol.com Subject: Re: Cars and alternate tech. njc In a message dated 3/15/02 7:54:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, guitarzan@saber.net writes: > On electric & hybrid cars: > Electric cars, besides being slow and having a limited travel range > between charges, are not really that ecological. It takes copious > amounts of electricity to power them. Electric rates have soared- > and most US electric power is made in oil-fired plants (nuclear is next), > so they are still using oil. And anytime you convert one type of > energy to another, you waste power, since no conversion process > is anywhere near 100% efficient. Now me: Having worked in the energy industry for over twenty years and having been involved in countless emerging alternative energy technology projects, Randy hit the nail right on the head. Natural gas vehicles aren't the answer either, but a mere stepping stone toward the ultimate answer. One point of clarification, I am not certain about other states, although dual fuel (oil and natural gas), most California power plants rely on natural gas as a fuel to meet our stringent air quality regulations. This just furthers the problem of exhausting fossil fuels. Randy also mentioned fuel cells and hydrogen power. Right on again, my friend. We will see fuel cells as a viable everyday alternative in our future (okay, the GenXers will) and that is the ultimate answer to the energy debate in my mind. Viable, yet today, prohibitively expensive technology. My firm allocates $2 million annually toward development of fuel cell technology. If you run across a firm with the secret to economically feasible fuel cell technology -- buy their stock. You could be the next Microsoft millionaire! The best source on alternative energy is our own US Department of Energy. I work closely with the DOE on several projects and am consistently impressed with the passionate dedication to alternatives and renewables of many in its employ. DOE's web site also has scads of information. No regrets, Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California "Only fools are afraid to be burned by fire..." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 06:36:58 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC > But there is certainly something wrong if the apathy on election day is ultimately > because people don't believe that their vote matters. > I hear what you're saying, Brenda. And I agree that's it's easy to get discouraged and feel like you're single-handedly trying to change this huge, complex machine. But I've also noticed that for the most part, the people who don't vote aren't all that involved day to day. I don't know how to solve that, although I think the media could play a better role in encouraging and informing people. I mean, all last summer we were inundated with stories of shark attacks. In fact, there were fewer attacks than in many previous years. Think of how different the world would be if the media had given us more info about the Taliban and al Quaeda. I've even wondered if, in order to get an FCC license, TV networks would have to provide a half hour of news every evening, commercial-free. I'll have to think about that more. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 06:50:53 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long > Oh dear! Talk about being stuck in the past! Did he seriously think > independence was abd thing? How sad! Yeah! But then when election day came around, he'd say totally seriously "How are we going to vote?" I'd have to remind him that I was going to vote the way I wanted, that the ballot is secret, and that if he wanted to vote, he'd have to become a citizen. He really hated that. LOL! I'm SO glad to be rid of him! :-) lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 06:57:52 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long > the trouble is woudl these countries allow this? Probably not. > > Also, we have to be so careful. Not all of ideals are good. We have to > be so careful not to think of different peoples with different cultures > etc as bad and inferior who needucating by us suprior white folk. > I agree totally. One of my other pet peeves (besides people not voting) is the fact that charitable work that is actually an attempt to convert people to a given religion - often Christianity. I believe that some of the technological knowledge that we've gained has obscured valuable old knowledge. We need to heed and benefit from both, and be able to select our beliefs freely. Idealistic, yes. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 07:09:39 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: NJC from politics to religion Well, I've found this current debate on politics so stimulating and thought provoking, I'm going to be brave and foolish and put forth an idea that I've been forming for a while about religion. I've come up with a belief system that I haven't really seen expressed like this anywhere. Maybe someone can tell me if there's a denomination that believes in something similar. First off, I don't see God as a separate whole being who created heaven (whatever that is) and earth. I think of the creation and the creator as the same thing. That means that God's not perfect and God doesn't have a plan, and God doesn't judge anyone. Instead, I think of God as being (ok I'm embarassed that I can't think of a better way to put this) kind of like "the Force" in the Star Wars movies. I guess you could call it the spirit that exists in and connects everything. I also think the purpose of all this is to nurture the God in all of us and in everything. And this also explains prayer as a sort of subliminal communication that can, if conditions are right, influence the force that is God. Anyway, that's the short description. From what I've said, does anyone know if this belief system is expressed in any known religion? lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:06:13 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: NJC from politics to religion Anne, this part sort of reminds me of a wiccan related content, how the prayer influences a certain force. But, yet again, I am not a wiccan, and it just sounded sort of pagan at first, but I really like your ideas. I myself have been a-tossin' and a-turnin' about the concept of god and my near faithlessness in it, but it seems recently, that last thing I would want to do is go hop on over to the church. I was watching this film called "Killer Condoms". Has anyone seen it? It is quite good. WEll, the point is, this lunatic doctor at this christian hospital had been sending out "killer condoms" to do gods work and punish all of those who dont wait till they are married, then have children. It was a grave reminder of all the fanatics out there (from all religious walks of life) and gave me a big step stage left. Yet, "Killer Condoms" is not the definitive moment in my ideals of religion, just a passing humourous comment. I like your ideas though, I feel that there should be something to belive in, and that the sense of a "Mystery" that may be welcoming or forboding is a joy to live with. BLair :) NP: "The Meek shall Inherit NOthing" Frank Zappa I also think the purpose of all this is to >nurture the God in all of us and in everything. And >this also explains prayer as a sort of subliminal >communication that can, if conditions are right, >influence the force that is God. > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:15:23 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC from politics to religion << From what I've said, does anyone know if this belief system is expressed in any known religion? >> If not, you could start a new one and call it "Anne-archy"! :~) All kidding aside, as a Christian I pretty much believe that God's manifestation is as you describe. The nature of the 'spirit that connects all things' is such that it is difficult to comprehend, let alone explain. Bob NPIMH: "I....wanna be.....ANARCHY"! :~) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:51:49 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: NJC from politics to religion > Anyway, that's the short description. From what I've > said, does anyone know if this belief system is > expressed in any known religion? > I think it is expressed in several religions. I highly recommend the book "The Anatomy of the Spirit" by Caroline Myss. I've found it very enlightening. Victor ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:01:57 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Me too!, njc You'd like western Washington & Oregon as well, Colin. And I agree with everyone who has posted about California. It has some amazing country. The redwoods in the northern part of the state are awe inspiring. Really drive's home Grace Slick's point that 'the human name doesn't mean sh*t to a tree'. The giant sequoias in the eastern part of the state are amazing as well. Someone already commented on the Big Sur coastline but I'll add to that praise by saying it's one of the most amazingly spectacular and beautiful places I have ever seen. Yosemite valley is also gorgeous. Plus you've got the cities of San Francisco in the north & Los Angeles in the south, both diverse and fascinating cultural centers, each in its own special way. There is amazing country all over the northwestern part of the US. Parts of Wyoming & Montana are quite spectacular as well. The Grand Teton mountain range in northwest Wyoming is another one of the prettiest places I have been to. And you could spend days in Yellowstone National Park and still not be able to take it all in. Fascinating & beautiful country. Mark E in Seattle where it is snowing....AGAIN! . > > I am sure Californis is beautiful. I wouls probably like it further north. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:11:21 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Me too!, njc No, only a small inland portion is desert. There are huge mountains, trees, waterfalls, farmlands, etc. Big Sur, like Bree said, is incredible...nothing like it. Santa Barbara where I live is beautiful...many compare it to parts of Italy or the Riviera. Mountains & foothills & the ocean. Whats a big plus is that beyond the mountains is National Forest land. I have lived here most of my life, still sometimes, the beauty just takes my breath away. Yes, there are earthquakes but no tornados or hurricanes! >>I am sure Californis is beautiful. I wouls probably like it further north. Not being an expert on it, I imagine most of it is desert. Plus I don't like earthquakes.<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:26:27 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Gorka is God In a message dated 3/15/02 3:01:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, kate@katebennett.com writes: > He doesn't tour that much anymore He's headed down the eastcoast. He'll be at the Tin Angel in Philadelphia, PA on April 5th. Showtimes 7:30 & 10PM. Nikki, Gregg, anyone else in NJ or PA, wanna goze? http://www.johngorka.com/ rose in nj ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:41:17 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: airport security njc A tangent to this discussion but here is a scary incident of just how inept airport security is right now. When we flew back from NYC (Kennedy) recently to Santa Barbara, we had two bags to check. One of them had all our music gear, cds, harmonicas, plastic string winder, strings, tuner, and WIRE CUTTERS. Of course after we went through x-ray, the contents required them to do a careful search & at each item I explained what it was used for. I was laughing a bit because they were really looking closely at the harmonicas & the string winder. And looking at us & then the CD covers...I told them we were musicians. So when they were finished & asked if we were checking that bag. We said yes & they said okay go ahead. We went over to check the bags & I said, that is weird, they are taking our word that we aren't bringing this bag on as a carry on (it was small enough), well I guess we will go through another x-ray machine later. We didn't. We could have carried on those wire cutters & no one would have known. Flying out of tiny SB Airport we had to take off our shoes...but not out of NYC? >>>I also feel - that yes - some of the airport security is out of line. I hope no one here will take this and blow it out of proportion. But some of the cavity searches, shoe removals and extensive bag checks will and are leading to the government's knowing just too much about our personal business.<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:36:28 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Gorka is God oops sorry Joni only's I've gotta watch that reply button. Now that I have everyone though, It would be cool though if we could have a mini jonifest. Too bad he's not playing at Godfrey Daniels in Bethlehem. Much better venue. rose in NJ NP: Terri Hendrix, Throw My Love ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:39:16 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: RE: NJC from politics to religion I think it is expressed in several religions. I highly recommend the book "The Anatomy of the Spirit" by Caroline Myss. I'll have to check out this book. Thanks Victor. I think a lot of religions kind of have a similar idea, but I don't think they really embody this particular belief. (perhaps I'm mistaken), but my belief is quite specific about not allowing for saints, messiahs, prophets, ceremonies, sacred books, etc. And, I don't think God is separate from anything. And I think God is still evolving and that it's our responsibility to make that happen. Does that help any? lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:51:42 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Bush...big foreign companies...globalism (NJC) Thanks for posting this article Kakki. The update on this is that this part of the plan was bipartisan & got voted down. I posted the article a few days ago, here it is again (link at the end of this post). Reading the arguments against this plan shows just what kind of mindset is still in place as far as this issue goes, such as: "American women love S.U.V.'s," said Senator Barbara A. Mikulski, Democrat of Maryland, who lives in Baltimore, where there is a large General Motors plant. "When you are a soccer mom and you are picking up kids or you are car-pooling or have kids with gear, you need large capacity." Senator Zell Miller, Democrat of Georgia, who sponsored the amendment exempting pickup trucks from higher standards, said he was protecting "hard-working people with calloused hands." The encouraging news is here: "Environmentalists lost on fuel efficiency, but they were likely to prevail later in the month by blocking a proposal to allow oil and gas exploration in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in northern Alaska. Senator Tom Daschle, Democrat of South Dakota, the majority leader, has promised that the Alaska drilling measure will be filibustered, and the proponents apparently do not have the 60 votes necessary to bring the matter to a vote" WASHINGTON, March 13  The Senate rejected a measure today to stiffen fuel-efficiency requirements for cars and trucks, once again resolving the perennial battle between environmentalists and the automobile industry in favor of the industry. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/14/politics/14ENER.html >>The Democrats' plan would require passenger vehicles made after 2006 and before 2010 to get 36 miles per gallon, and light trucks to get 27.5 miles per gallon. That's compared to the current standard of 27.5 miles per gallon for cars and 20.7 miles per gallon for light trucks. The House plan contains less strict cuts in fuel consumption from only light trucks.<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:06:41 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: airport security njc Not being someone who flies or has access to those kinds of areas very often, Kate's post concerning the lax airport security is very frightening to me. Says to me we are still not doing enough to ensure safety and eventually, if that kind of thing continues, we will pay the price for it. mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:18:09 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: nJc of the people A government of the people, by the people, for the people? Those words were spoken in 1863, 87 years (four score and seven) years after the Declaration of Independence. Those words were spoken in the midst of a civil war in which states succeeded from the union, commited treason against the United State, over the issue of "states rights" or specifically, slavery. In 1776, blacks were most enslvaed (there were a handful of free blacks) but none could vote and in the later US Constitution were defined as 3/5 of a human being for census purposes. Women could not vote. Native Americans could not vote and of course were not citizens. A sidenote: Robert E. Lee never spent a day in jail for leading the Army of Northern Virginbia in war from 1861 through 1865 against the United States. Lincoln's policy of "malice towards none, charity for all prevailed in the wake of his assassination. Remember that when we consider the matter of John Walker Lindh, who it would seem never fired a shot in anger against US forces, having found himself in a situation he could not expect, and was out of it within weeks. Whatever John Walker Lindh did was far, far less than Robert E. Lee iniating, planning, and waging war against the United States for a five year period with an aim of destroying the Union. As we let the confederate soldiers go home with their guns and mules, to rebuild their lives, our American history compels us to let John Walker Lindh go home to rebuild his life. Lincoln's "of the people, by the people, for the people" was his hope, but it was his reality. Blacks could not vote, and it can be arguably affirmed that even now we need the Civil Rights Voting Act in force to ensure the rights of African Americans to vote in this day, in 2002, or not have the votes diluted in gerrymandered districts. Many of us recall vividly the civil rights era - which was in part to get the votes for blacks - over 100 tears after "of the people, by the people, for the people". People gave their lives to secure the rights of blacks to vote, as recently as the 1960s. Women have been allowed to vote since roughly 1920. That is 82 years out of 226 years since the American Revolution. So women have been included in the govenment "of the people, by the people, for the people" for only about 36% of our country's history. I'm not proud of that. Asian Americans and Latino Americans have had similar struggles in getting the vote and being included in "of the people, by the people, for the people.' We must all remeber that in our country's beginning the right of white males to vote was limited to those who owned land. People withoiut property could not vote. "of the people, by the people, for the people" seems a huge joke since Florida 2000. Not just what happened on Election Day, but the tactics of Jeb Bush in the months prior - the disenfranchisement of African Emerican men by the thousands tossed off the voting rolls, in a cleansing for their supposedly having felony convictions which it later turned out, they did not have, but by then, the electiopn was over. The whole Florida experience rebuts the idea that we have "of the people, by the people, for the people." Special interests: the fur industry in the 1700s (whence trhe Astors made their money), the train interests in the 1800s who called the giovernment shots, tehn silver ang gold mine owners in the depression of 1893, then banking interests in the 1910s, then oil interests from Teapot Dome in the 1920s to the Gulf War of 1991 and Bush's energy policies and Enron Goverment "of the people, by the people, for the people" my ass. Not when the Vice President refuses to release the name sof who who were the contributors to the energy plannign meetings held in secret. No govenment "of the people, by the people, for the people" in Cheny. None in Bush, who has delayed federal law in releasing the documents of the Reagan administration and even filed his own governor papers - not in Texas with the state where he was governor but rather in his father's presidential, library where they are outside the scope of texas law- so that what the public records of what Bush was doing as governor will; be kept from "of the people, by the people, for the people." "of the people, by the people, for the people" Bullshit. 20% voted in California. Feel good! In our Michigan recent local elections, we had one township that has 12%, and they were the high for the area. "of the people, by the people, for the people" Not when the McCain Feingold bill was fought so vigorously by the lobbiests; it only passed because Bush's largest campaign contributor, Kenneth Lay, was head of Enron, and the stentch of that permeated the Congress. "of the people, by the people, for the people" Name one congressional action, or executive action, that will lead to voting reform in the next election so we can avoid another Florida. "of the people, by the people, for the people" In Chicago this week, W will pose for poictures for $10,000 and you can get "face time" with him for $25,000, all moneies to the party, The people whp do not have $10,000 oe $25,000 will have no contact wuth their president. "of the people, by the people, for the people" my ass. Lincoln's Gettsyburg address with its closing words that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not pas from the face of the earth was as prayer that we might one day have such. It is a goal, It is an ideal, It is an idea, It is that which we are caled to work for. It is not reality. To cite a hope as reality is to do a diservice to the hope and to deny the relaity. Bush and Cheney are pissants. Gore and Lieberman, while I supported them wholeheartedly, were just pissants with a conscious. Nadar was an egomanic destroyer, What we need these days is a new Lincoln who will call us again to what "of the people, by the people, for the people" will mean as we live out our American vision. To be with some hope, I do suspect that Sen John Edwards of SC and Sen Evan Bayh of Ind offer hope that they have a vision that is in accord with "of the people, by the people, for the people". Failing their candidacies, perhaps Gov Gray Davis might be out best choice as, while lacking vision, is a tehnician with his heart in the right place, Mybe, as Eugene Mccarthy rose up late in 1967 to be a force in 1968, we have another voice yet to be heard which will call us to a higher plan. "of the people, by the people, for the people" What a joke. Itr is is the civic lesson, and it is a joke. The last election ended in fraud and was conducted without a single idea, arguing over tax cuts instead of looking at what issues and responsibilies lay ahead for our nation. And this is avoiding the luncay of 6 months of Bush action is to giv e us color coded terrorism alert - what a farce - and a shadow goverment that operates totally outside the US Constitution. (They left out the legislative branch, the judicial branch, and all the protections oand procedures of the consitution: the foundng fathers would so disown this leaving all power in an unamed, secret shadow executive brach, which by it definition, is tyranny. aren;t you all say that I delurked. And I haven't even begun on the nuclear issue and the little failure to capture Osama bin laden, which is what it was about, and that we are setting the stage to go to war with Iraq - was Osama just a pretext? Does this administration have a thought or policy that it can hold from one day to the next> They drift in the wind, buffeted by ever current, and have no idea what they are doing, other than color codes for us all! If Sting were to wriote a new song, would Rozanne have to turn off the red light because it now indicates the hiugets state or terrorism alert? Next tinme I drive, what do I do when I see yellow light? Tom Ridge and his color coding, the best this administration can offer, ahs given us avery bad, lame Saturday Night Live skit and called it actual policy. The clowns are running Washington. God save the people. (the Rev) Vince and Joni, sing Sex Kills again - you are so right on, my dear. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:21:44 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: compulsory voting njc I suppose that it does ensure a good turnout but not sure how good of an idea that it is. The place in which I work has approximately 30-35 employees. Rosalie and I are the only ones there that do vote, on a regular basis. There are 2 or so others that vote sometimes. How do I know, because I ask them? I often get upset when they tell me that are not going to vote and most reply that they have never voted. The usual comments are made such as "it doesn't make any difference, it is only one vote",etc. , etc." , "I don't know who to vote for", "I don't have time." Even when I try to discuss the issues with them, they are not interested. That is why I am not sure that requiring people to vote would be such a good idea. There are many people who are not, and the majority I would guess, going to become involved or learn the issues or the candidates, they are just going to cast their votes and depart. Then again, I wonder if those elected by that kind of a system would be any better or worse than what we have now. Sounds very cynical and that is sad, even to me, for that is what I have learned from the political system in this country, or politics in general. mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 11:49:46 -0800 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Bush...big foreign companies...globalism (NJC) On 15 Jan 2002 at 22:09, Kakki wrote: > On the other hand many average citizens in those countries benefit > from either being employed at those large companies, whose continued > economic health is greatly bolstered by having a large and stable > American market to sell their products to, or from the taxes paid by > those companies, which serves to fund their countries social programs. So the fact that there may be some direct or indirect benefit implies that the right to be critical is precluded? (Even though we enjoy the reciprocal benefit of their participation in our market?) If you follow that logic, then neither U.S. citizens nor the U.S. government should criticize the "axis of evil" nations because of, for example, the $5.8 billion in "mineral fuel" imports from Iraq in 2001 or whatever indirect benefit U.S. companies may enjoy from the likes of France's trade with Iraq or Germany's trade with North Korea. Our economic fate is more and more intertwined with the rest of the world and likewise the rest of the world with us. And it seems that nationalism will have a decreasingly important place as the world economy evolves. In my view, all participants should have a voice, whether we like what they have to say or not. Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:05:12 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: airport security njc yes mack, it is frightening...i wrote to barbara boxer about my experience...i recently heard she was involved in airport security issues...will let you know if/what i hear back... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:23:35 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: VLJC from politics to religion anne@sandstrom.com wrote: > Anyway, that's the short description. From what I've > said, does anyone know if this belief system is > expressed in any known religion? I think the native American religions would easily agree with what you have said. Also Taoism, at least in it's pure form. The Tao is the Way of Life, the Power, the Great Spirit. Elements of Buddhism and Hinduism identify lifeforce in all things, even rocks. Here are some interesting facts about religion I recently found in the Guinness Book of World Records: Christianity is the world's largest religion, with 33% of the world population, or nearly 2 billion adherants. About half of those are Roman Catholic. Islam is next with over 1 billion followers. The Baha'i faith (6 million) has no ceremonies, sacraments, or clergy and emphasizes the importance of all religions and the spiritual unity of all humanity. It was started by a couple of Iranian dudes. Billy Graham's "Decision Hour", on the radio since 1957, attracts an average audience of 20 million. Pope John Paul II has the record for creating the most saints-10 times more than any other.283 people canonized and 805 beautified (given the title "Blessed"). Aztecs have the sacrifice record, believed to have killed 20,000 during the dedication of the great temple in 1486 in honor of their war god. And, if they turned this into a religion, I would join: Biggest food fight: In 1998, 30,000 Spaniards had a giant tomato fight with 90 tons of tomatoes. Joni is mentioned in the Guinness Book BTW, but not for holding a record. Willie Nelson has the record for the most duets with other artists, including Bob Dylan, Frank Sinatra, Ray Charles, Joni, and others, 100 in all (in 2000, more now). RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:32:41 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: which people? "Kakki" >Well, maybe here is where there is a difference in interpretation between >American and British English or probably culture. Americans believe and >have always believed that they ARE the government "by the people and for the >people." A beautiful ideal which real world practice falls far short of realizing. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:34:16 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: which people? Sorry for omitting the "njc." - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:35:10 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: which people? In a message dated 3/16/02 2:34:16 PM, FredNow writes: >Sorry for omitting the "njc." > >-Fred Sorry for omitting the "njc." - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:38:28 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: nJc of the people Great words, Vince. I'm with you on all of it except > Failing their > candidacies, perhaps Gov Gray Davis might be out best choice as, while > lacking vision, is a tehnician with his heart in the right place, Our California Governor is an appeaser in the Clinton mold, a dear friend to the corporate interests, a Republican in Democrat's clothing, who will say whatever you want to hear to get elected. Much of the shameful electricity crisis (complete with Enron involvement) rests on his shoulders. Tree defenders in N. Cal still remember that he said that, if elected, not another old growth tree (3% still standing) would fall to the logger's axe. He promptly forgot his words. I kept waiting for him to say "I didn't say anything about chain saws", but alas, he was too spineless to address the question at all when called to task. I would expect more status quo from Davis, plus, unlike Clinton, he lacks any kind of personal charisma that might capture the public's fancy. I hope he's not our best hope, but compared to some of the other possibilities,,,,,,eeeww....I don't want to think about it RR ps regarding a government "of the people" ; was it Ghandhi, who, when asked about Democracy, said, "I think it would be a good idea" ? We have the illusion of a democratic process because we can choose between (usually two) candidates. But the "demo" part of democracy, the whole idea, is that people from various regions pick someone to represent them in the government. We do get to pick, but they represent the business interests that put them up, once they get in. A slight of hand. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:48:57 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: VG8 - njc This just in! I Have been offered another VG-8 WITH the GK-2a pick up chich you can mount on your own guitar and manual and cable for $500. This is a great price and I am told it is showroom quality. Email me if you are interested in this piece. Michael on 3/14/02 1:52 AM, M.Russell@iaea.org at M.Russell@iaea.org wrote: > > The VG-8 is Roland's virtual guitar system (it has since been replaced by > the VG-88, which Paz says isn't as good, but you can still find VG-8's for > sale if you look around). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:38:03 -0500 From: "marianne marianne" Subject: Joni Mitchell book Warren Wrote: Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:01:00 EST From: WARREN901@aol.com "hello joinitites ! I wanted to let walt know that the song " suzanne " waswritten by leonard cohen. Speaking of leonard, someone mentioned a photo in an earlier post of joni and leonard at the newport folk festival in "67. (the photo was by david gahr.) I have a small paper back book entitled, "joni mitchell: her life, her loves, her music, " by leonore fleischer , published in 1976. it is filled with wonderful photos including the one mentioned in the post. I received it from a friend the year it was published and have always cherished it for the photos. It is in a 7" x 10" format and was published by flash books,is anyone familiar with it ?" Warren, I happened to have found this book about ten years ago at an antique shop on Lake Avenue in Rochester NY, right near lake Ontario. I've never seen it anywhere else, nor have I heard anyone ever mention it. It was a find. I love the picture of her on the cover. I am compelled now to share a few of Joni's quotes from the book. . . for those who haven't heard them . . . and for those who find inspiration in hearing them again: "the most important thing," said Joni Mitchell, "is to write in your own blood. . ." "Freedom to me is the luxury of being able to follow the path of the heart. I think that's the only way that you maintain the magic in your life, that you keep your child alive." Freedom is necessary for me in order to create, and if I don't create, I don't feel alive." best to you, with love Marianne _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:52:09 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Cars and alternate tech. njc Kate Bennett wrote: > Great information Randy, thank you! > > Yes, I have heard some talk of this hydrogen technology & it sounds so > promising...isn't the byproduct water somehow? Yes! One of Hydrogen's drawbacks is that it is very explosive- They used to use it in blimps, after the Hindenburg they went to Helium. It just requires very careful safety measures and really tough storage tanks. We'll be seeing more and more of it. Dinosaurs, be gone! > It makes sense if two of the > H's mix with one O...LOL... > > Our dream is to get off the grid...we get lots of wind & sun here & want to > be able to run our house on these energy sources.. I've been off the grid since 1977...although sometimes my dream is to have PG&E!!! In alot of ways, alternative power is a pain in the ass, besides being expensive. I run a 32 track ADAT studio off my solar/ gen system. My 110 power is a cleaner wave than the utilities, no buzz at all (from having the right sinewave inverter). My lights are DC. Refrigeration is propane, heat is wood, my phone is a radio job. Since you live in S.Cal, solar would be a good choice, and, as I said, California will pay for half of it, and you can sell your excess power back to the utilities. Advance Power of Calpella, CA is a pioneer in these types of systems. I suggest giving them a call when you are ready to get into it. And if you don't already have them, get the catalogs from Jade Mountain and Real Goods-they are full of information and applications-they'll run you 10 or 15 bucks apiece. Also, Real Goods' solar fair in Hopland every summer is a hoot, with all kinds of booths (and music from the solar-powered stage). That's where I first met folks making their own fuel cells and hydrogen stuff. RR ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #119 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?