From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #117 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, March 15 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 117 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Bush stole the election NJC [Alison E ] Jonifest 2002 Logo Contest [AsharaProducLLC@aol.com] Re: Bush (NJC) long ["Kakki" ] Re: Alternative energy (NJC) ["Kakki" ] NJC conservation ["gene mock" ] Re: US involvement, NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: Bush (NJC) long [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: Me too!, njc [colin ] Re: Bush (NJC) long [colin ] Re: Bush (NJC) long ["Kakki" ] Re: US involvement, NJC [colin ] Re: Bush (NJC) long [colin ] Re: US involvement, NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: US involvement, NJC [colin ] Re: Bush (NJC) long ["Kakki" ] RE: Alternative energy (NJC) [chiaroscuro@SNET.Net] Re: US involvement, NJC [chiaroscuro@snet.net] testing njc ignore ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Bush (NJC) long [chiaroscuro@snet.net] Re:WTC memorial (totally NJC) [RobSher50@aol.com] RE: Gorka is God NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: US involvement, NJC [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC ["Brenda" ] Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC [anne@sandstrom.com] Re:Kind words for Dolly(njc) [RobSher50@aol.com] Re: Joni poster of TTT ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Me too!, njc ["Bree Mcdonough" ] My Ol KY Home njc ["Kate Bennett" ] VG8 - njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: nuclear weapons NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: nuclear weapons NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC ["Brenda" ] Re: My Ol KY Home njc ["Bree Mcdonough" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 13:35:27 -0800 (PST) From: Alison E Subject: Re: Bush stole the election NJC - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Bob > > NP: Ryan Adams, "Mara Lisa" (how can EVERY song this > dude writes be so good?) because he sold his soul to satan, a coupla years ago. it paid off, though, eh? goooooood music. alison e. in slc np: oh, for god's sake, the subject line's a joke. the ryan adams part isn't though. i see him at meetings all the time. np: wilco Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:06:21 EST From: AsharaProducLLC@aol.com Subject: Jonifest 2002 Logo Contest Well.....I am running way behind the times. I thought today was the deadline for voting for the logo contest, and I just realized that the deadline was the 10th. Also, it was my intention to give everyone a "heads up" reminder to vote. Since I didn't, and since I want to....(and since I leaving for a Baltimore mini-Jonifest shortly) I am extending the deadline to vote until midnight on Monday, March 18. So....if you haven't voted yet, get your buns over to: http://www.jmdl.com/jonifest2002/logocontest.cfm And VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!! Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 14:37:02 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long Hi Julius, >I can see how, generally speaking, hearsay and embellishment are > objectionable. And, clearly, it's not cool to preempt the President. I think that when newspapers embellish hearsay having to do with something as serious as nuclear weapons during a time when the U.S. is engaged in a war to defend itself is beyond despicable. It's fine to preempt anyone generally from a leak but a leak of classified Pentagon material??? That used to be definitely uncool but ethical standards have been so lowered that most don't even blink an eye over it. However............after my initial reaction it did occur to me that it *could* have been intentionally leaked to check out public opinion. Maybe I'll pretend those screaming meanies and nasties at the Guardian are really double-agents for the CIA - that might make me feel better ;-) > Notice how there's no condemnation of the leak from the Administration like > there was when someone from Congress leaked sensitive war policy earlier in > the Bush administration? That's an earmark of a leak by design. Clinton > used the leak technique masterfully during the Lewinski debacle. It's about > managing expectation. I did see a headline the other day about Rumsfeld condemning it and calling for an investigation of the L.A. Times but didn't read the article. By the way, it is interesting to hear you mention the Clinton leak technique - the Master of manipulation indeed! >I think that's pretty cool and I'm psyched when the press > ferrets these things out. Remember Watergate? Yeah, but this is different - we are trying to protect our country. Would it be cool if people on a regular basis start leaking all our current strategic military defense plans to the world, too? What scares me is that there are some people who think that would be very cool. Thanks for bringing your intellect into the discussion, Julius. When you get a chance, maybe you could elaborate on the finer points of alternative energy ;-) (I'm serious!) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 14:47:56 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Alternative energy (NJC) Hi Gene, > we have to start sometime, how about now? We started a number of years ago. California has been running on alternative sources since 1996, which despite all the economic problems that has engendered, I am still proud and happy about the fact that it exists and is running along. I have only purchased stock twice in my life, both times in companies developing alternative technology. I also lost all my investment in both, but at least I had hope. > then again, maybe the one's who are advocating the use of nuclear weapons know something we don't. like > we're not going to last long enough to exhaust the worlds fossil fuels. I don't think so. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:12:21 -0800 From: "gene mock" Subject: NJC conservation since we're on the subject of conservation i thought some of you might find this interesting. for those of you who think this is another version of spam-------i apologize. this is the last i chime in on this subject. thanks for you patience. gene 1. FAST FACTS ON ARCTIC DRILLING! ********************************************** http://www.care2.com/go/redirect/2/3674 YES, you've heard about the Arctic drilling issue many times, but have you heard the TRUTH? In the next week, the U.S. Senate will vote, and pro-drillers are sending out all kinds of misleading arguments to push this bill through easily. We have the REAL STORY! FAST FACTS -- THE TRUTH ** Pro-drillers are claiming that only 2,000 acres of the Arctic refuge will be affected. THE TRUTH: refuge oil is scattered and oil companies will need to create miles of pipelines and roads all across the Refuge. These pro-drillers are only counting the ground that actually touches the posts or other drilling equipment towards that 2,000 acres; bare ground under the pipeline and roads that destroy the landscape isn't included, even though it's damaged for wildlife. ** Drilling in the Refuge won't cut prices at the pump! This oil is a drop of oil in the global bucket, not enough to really effect prices. ** Even if Arctic drilling occurs, lengthy processing and drilling will prevent us from seeing any Arctic oil for 10 years and then it will only last 6 MONTHS! ** A mere two-mile-per-gallon improvement in auto efficiency would save that same amount of oil in under 3 years, and keep on saving. ** Arctic Drilling WILL NOT reduce our dependence on foreign oil. The U.S. has 2.8% of the world's known petroleum reserves. We consume over 25% of all oil produced. Refuge oil would AT MOST, increase our reserves by a mere 1% percent -- we'll need to get the remaining 21% percent from foreign producers. Click here to register your opposition: http://www.care2.com/go/redirect/2/3674 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 14:59:33 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: US involvement, NJC Laurent, Thank you for shaking the cobwebs out of my head. Yes, of course, there have been many, ever-evolving reasons why the U.S. has been involved in the middle east over the years (I almost typed "muddle east" there - ha!) > I think initially it was because the USSR was supporting militarily the arab > regimes (Syria, Egypt, Palestinians' Fatah, Lybia, etc). Later on the US > became a whore and gave money to both sides, just as corporations finance > both presidential candidates' campaign. In general, the U.S. indiscriminately throwing money all over the place at problems has been a huge mistake. > One thing I'm sure of: notwithstanding all the good talk, it's all about > power and money, they don't give a s..t about Europe nor Israel nor anybody > else. But whose power and money? If the U.S. hasn't obtained much of its oil from the middle east for years, what would be the incentive? The biggest oil companies in the world are not U.S. owned. British Petroleum now owns what were the biggest U.S. oil companies - Arco and Texaco. I may be projecting but I think the average American absolutely hates getting involved and mired in the problems of other countries. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:20:41 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long > I really don't see what the above has to with anything we are discussing. we are > discussing the USA interfering with foreign powers, supporting terrorists when > it suits them, supporting dictators when it suits them toppling othjer countries > govts when it suits them etc etc etc and then wondering why they piss people off > in these countries! EVERY country, yes, EVERY country acts in its own self interest. That doesn't make it right. But, in a sense, it's what countries are supposed to do. The US gets slammed for it because we have the money and power to make a big difference. And if someone doesn't like what we do, we're meddling. I wonder, would the world like it better if we were isolationists? Having said all that, I'd like to see the US follow a different strategy. And the world won't like this any better. Instead of sending soldiers and bombs, I'd send teachers and build schools. Ah, but wait, do I hear complaints about us forcing our way of life on the rest of the world? Probably. So, we should respect other cultures where feasible and reasonable. But supporting a Taliban-like culture that opresses women? No, I don't think so. I'd like to see a world that strives for the ideals of liberty and justice for all. That's pretty American of me, I guess. But I don't think they're bad ideals. (I'll go put on my fire retardant suit now...) lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:33:05 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Me too!, njc Bree Mcdonough wrote: > >America is the the most beautiful country I have ever visited,(at least > >the states i was in-VT, NYS, Maine and NH and CT) and I have visted > >about 30 countries. > > > Well Colin.. when you come back you must visit the south and the west. My > favorite states in no particular order > are:Kentucky,Tennessee,Arizona,Nevada,California,Colorado. Colarado and kentucky and perhaps Tenesee really appeal. the othjers don'e. Not into desert. > > > How many years ago were you in the states? five. > Any surprises? LOADS!!!! The language is so different. Service was excellent. The best. Food was good and cheap and plentiful(too much so). On my first day driving out of boston along rte 1a I came across roadworkers gaurded by Police. this worried me. i thought'shit crime is that bad they have to protect the roadworkers?' Later I found out they were convicts. I didn't visit any cities-just very samll places on my way around all the back routes. beautiful. Scary at times, especially when i saw men with guns. The snow and frozen lakes and rivers ect were stunning as were the mountians. Motels were easy to find. Weird I though. In the middle of noweher and there is a motel or a diner! Bloody cold tho! But then i chose that tiem of year. I love the snow. > Or were things > just as you thought they would be? Not at all like I expected. I expected cabot Cove and genteelness like on Murder She Wrote! > > > Bree > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:38:13 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long > But supporting > a Taliban-like culture that opresses women? It aleady does now and it did in the past. as the UK does and did. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait to name just 2. > > But I don't think they're bad ideals.No, I > don't think so. No they are not bad ideals but they are not acted upon by your Govt when abroad nor ours. > > > (I'll go put on my fire retardant suit now...) no need for that. Why are people so afraid to say what is on their mind? really, if you don't swear at anyone or name call,or denigrate anyone or say they are stupid or bad or whatever there is no problem. Anyway, if you upset me....weel that would be telling but just watch out...... > > > lots of love you too! > > Anne - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:11:27 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long colin wrote: >>About supporting regimes in the past that are now > >enemies - lots of people in Europe and around the world supported Hitler, > >too, > > support is not the right word. But yes, something could have been done about him > beforee the war. It had to do with anti semitism. And the seductive draw of blind national patriotism and power. > > or looked the other way in the beginning, until they saw the light. > > Like the USA did. The people in the USA were still reeling from the effects of their involvement in helping Europe in WWI and dealing with the Great Depression at the time They were also an ocean away. > They , the UK, certainly helped create the Palestine problem. They gave in to > terrorists. They controlled most of the countries in the middle east and set up the governments there after they pulled out. I don't know the exact list of countries, but recall they had control of Iran and Afghanistan, they created Pakistan, Israel and, I believe, Jordan, as new countries. I think the list is even longer than that. > I really don't see what the above has to with anything we are discussing. we are > discussing the USA interfering with foreign powers, supporting terrorists when > it suits them, supporting dictators when it suits them toppling othjer countries > govts when it suits them etc etc etc and then wondering why they piss people off > in these countries! Do you really think they are doing it in a vacuum? Certainly the interests of their allies appears to come into the equation. You can't see how countries in Europe having some of it's largest corporations (including "King Oil") making trillions in the American marketplace doesn't enter into it all? Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:42:51 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: US involvement, NJC > but I think the average American absolutely hates getting involved and mired > in the problems of other countries. you are an intelligent person. i really do not understand why you think we are talking about you and your fellows in the USA. We are not. We are talking about your GOVERNMENT. It is they who get involved and mired. None of this discussion is directed at the genral population. I would think it very silly if people held me persoanlly responsible for the UK govt's actions, so I am not likely to hold you or anyone esle responsible for yours! > > > Kakki - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:47:55 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long Kakki wrote: > colin wrote: > > >>About supporting regimes in the past that are now > > >enemies - lots of people in Europe and around the world supported Hitler, > > >too, > > > > support is not the right word. But yes, something could have been done > about him > > beforee the war. It had to do with anti semitism. > > And the seductive draw of blind national patriotism and power. > > > > or looked the other way in the beginning, until they saw the light. > > > > Like the USA did. > > The people in the USA were still reeling from the effects of their > involvement in helping Europe in WWI and dealing with the Great Depression > at the time They were also an ocean away. > > > They , the UK, certainly helped create the Palestine problem. They gave in > to > > terrorists. > > They controlled most of the countries in the middle east and set up the > governments there after they pulled out. I don't know the exact list of > countries, but recall they had control of Iran and Afghanistan, they created > Pakistan, Israel and, I believe, Jordan, as new countries. I think the list > is even longer than that. > > > I really don't see what the above has to with anything we are discussing. > we are > > discussing the USA interfering with foreign powers, supporting terrorists > when > > it suits them, supporting dictators when it suits them toppling othjer > countries > > govts when it suits them etc etc etc and then wondering why they piss > people off > > in these countries! > > Do you really think they are doing it in a vacuum? Certainly the interests > of their allies appears to come into the equation. > You can't see how countries in Europe I see very well. i also see that you are taking all this personally and refusing to see anything wwrong in your Govt's deeds. There really is no need to tell me about the wrongs of my Govt-i have been tlaking about them in my oosts but you seem to be blind to them. Kakki, you are not your Govt, you are not being attacked here, none of this is personal. Please don't make that way. i like you, have no quarrel with you at all but it gets very diffuicult to write anything at all wihtout you seeming to think you are being attacked and misreading what is written. i might add that your own countrymen have writtten far stronger words than I but I seem to get the brunt of your offence. I wish it wasn't that way. > having some of it's largest > corporations (including "King Oil") making trillions in the American > marketplace doesn't enter into it all? > > Kakki - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:23:44 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: US involvement, NJC Well, maybe here is where there is a difference in interpretation between American and British English or probably culture. Americans believe and have always believed that they ARE the government "by the people and for the people." Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:54:14 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: US involvement, NJC > Americans believe and have > always believed that they ARE the government "by the people and for the > people." In which case it is all your fault, Kakki. i hold you personally responsible. So much eaiser now I can put a face to it and not just some faceless beaurocracy. > > > Kakki - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:31:58 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long Colin, I have never once thought I was being personally attacked in this - I don't know where you get that at all. You are not getting the brunt of my offense. You did however, start bringing up many of the issues to begin with. It's natural for most American to want to defend their country, especially when they feel crap is being said about it. We do have the sense that we ARE the government. Most Americans still feel they have power to change their government'd direction anytime they decide to do so. We do not yet have to bow to some group of elites who tell us what to do. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:00:07 -0500 From: chiaroscuro@SNET.Net Subject: RE: Alternative energy (NJC) Kate said: "...I also believe that the money is always there for whatever is considered a priority." That has pretty much been the bottom line. Money. If all of our systems (technology, economics, etc.) were more efficient then money could not be made. It's pretty pathetic. I saw a report on the evening news about the new hybrid cars (gas/electric). I can't remember exactly but the gist of the report was that the big car companies do not think the hybrid cars will take with the public and they seem very reluctant to make these cars (I understand Honda makes one). By just saying that on the news influences the public. Kate is right. The science is there to support alternative energy. Every time I hit a pothole with my car I think, "Shit! I know there are better materials to make roads.!" With all the technology and being a chemist .... well, it just baffles me. my ol' 2 cents Heather At 10:23 AM 3/15/02 -0800, Kate Bennett wrote: >Hi Kakki, I appreciate your thoughts on this, its just that I don't agree >with you. I am sure some of my anger seeps through regarding this issue so I >just want to be clear that this isn't aimed at you personally at all. > >I believe we could & should have been converting decades ago & I also >believe that the money is always there for whatever is considered a >priority. There has been a short sightedness, a status quo- ness that have >kept things as they are. If alternative energy truly was a priority we'd be >up & running with it by now. There has been money to help the auto industry >when needed, money for space exploration, etc. > >The money is there, the technology is there but the mindset has not been >there. I do see that things are slooooowly creeping towards alternative >energy but imo, its been a long time coming.... > >******************************************** >Kate Bennett >www.katebennett.com >sponsored by Polysonics >Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: >http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html >******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:06:17 -0500 From: chiaroscuro@snet.net Subject: Re: US involvement, NJC I hope you are kidding, Colin. Heather At 11:54 PM 3/15/02 +0000, colin wrote: > > Americans believe and have > > always believed that they ARE the government "by the people and for the > > people." > >In which case it is all your fault, Kakki. i hold you personally responsible. >So much eaiser now I can put a face to it and not just some faceless >beaurocracy. > > > > > > > Kakki > >-- >bw >colin >DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap >6000, >Duo80. > >colin@tantra-apso.com >http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:17:49 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: testing njc ignore ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:14:36 -0500 From: chiaroscuro@snet.net Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long I've been reading the banter between you both and I thought I was reliving the Revolutionary War! (JUST KIDDING!). Many, many, many Americans are very patriotic. I consider myself so. I am not a big fan of Pres. Bush but he is our Pres. under present circumstances. Do I want him to use nuclear weapons?? Hell no! As a chemist for the past 20 years and my knowledge of history, I can see absolutely no use for nuclear weapons. Let's just pray this doesn't happen. Peace, Heather At 03:31 PM 3/15/02 -0800, Kakki wrote: >Colin, > >I have never once thought I was being personally attacked in this - I don't >know where you get that at all. You are not getting the brunt of my >offense. You did however, start bringing up many of the issues to begin >with. It's natural for most American to want to defend their country, >especially when they feel crap is being said about it. We do have the sense >that we ARE the government. Most Americans still feel they have power to >change their government'd direction anytime they decide to do so. We do not >yet have to bow to some group of elites who tell us what to do. > >Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:24:33 EST From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re:WTC memorial (totally NJC) Dear Ashara, My heart goes out to this remembrance and all those who suffered a personal loss, but I am with you in that my heart can't go here yet. I saw part of a very good program the night of the anniversary on BET where Dr. Alvin Poussaint was being interviewed. He advised that this remembrance may be a little too raw for many Americans, especially those who have lost loved ones and advised that it may be better to limit reliving scenes from that horrible day. He especially advised that children may not yet be ready to view those scenes again. I just knew in my heart that I wasn't emotionally prepared to re-live that day again. There are some that may find it a way of healing and moving forward with their lives. For them, it would have been good to deal with it and help themselves to heal. I think everyone has to know their own comfort level with re-living the 9/11 tragedy. My brother was supposed to be at the Pentagon on that very day and it was too close a call for me and my family. Sherelle In a message dated 03/14/2002 12:09:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 19:24:44 EST > From: AsharaJM@aol.com > Subject: Re: WTC memorial (totally NJC) > > I like some of the things everyone has come up with. It is still too raw > for > me to really think about this, but I love hearing everyone's ideas! > > Hugs, > Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:40:23 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Gorka is God NJC Alison, I almost included you in my list of witnesses to his incredibleness, knowing your exquisite musical tastes...my god...he had me openingly weeping at his song Let Them In, then went right into People My Age. It was such an unfair thing to put me on that emotional rollercoaster but he is a master of that. The WTC plaza concert sounds really incredible & how cool you have that cheesy picture from 11 years ago! How can it be that a man with that incredible voice, sharp unique wit, gorgeous melodies, lyrical depth, is not the most famous musician on earth? Everytime I put his CD on when friends are over, they stop in their tracks & ask me "who is that?" LA area jmdlers! Cancel your Saturday night plans & go hear this man!!!!!!!! You will thank me. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:40:07 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: US involvement, NJC Colin said: > i really do not understand why you think we are talking about you and your fellows in the USA. We are not. We are talking about your GOVERNMENT. As Kakki has said, we consider ourselves to be the government. Even if we don't agree with everything the current administration does or says. Our constitution, upon which all our laws and government are based starts: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. We the people... There is no us and them. From what I understand of British history, for example, there was always an us and them - from feudal lords to kings. If you were an 'us' (a cerf, for example) you could never be a "them" (a lord, or a king). That was literally the stuff of fairy tales. So, your history most likely taught you to think differently about your government. It's separate, I guess. Maybe this clarifies why we seem to take it so personally. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:51:17 -0800 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC On 15 Mar 2002 at 15:23, Kakki wrote: > > Americans > believe and have always believed that they ARE the government "by the > people and for the people." > I can't help thinking that the majority of Americans don't believe this. If they did, wouldn't we have a higher voter turnout? Where is the patriotism on election day? On March 5, California had it's lowest voter turnout on record, less than 35% of registered voters cast ballots, which equates to a mere 22% of eligible voters (registered and not registered). And other states have not faired much better with elections since 9/11. I think this quote from Arend Lijphart, a UC San Diego political scientist speaks plainly and directly to the point. "'But what kind of democracy do we have when only a third of the people vote? If government means by and for the people, can we really call ourselves a democracy?'" http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-000017220mar08.story Brenda n.p.: Great Chefs ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:52:28 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long I said: But supporting a Taliban-like culture that opresses women? > Colin said: It aleady does now and it did in the past. as the UK does and did. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait to name just 2. I don't disagree that we're supporting regimes that I consider oppressive. But I was actually talking hypothetically. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I meant that if we sent teachers to countries where oppression occurs, we would not support that kind of behavior in the teachings. Ideally, we'd teach enough about "liberty and justice for all" to kindle interest in the students. Some may actually find this idea more distasteful than simply supporting oppressive governments. We'd be seeding revolution in places where some might think we have no business. Idealistically, we should leave well enough alone. But we export movies, tv, etc., which is pretty haphazard at best, and destructive. Why not balance that with a purposeful plan? Why not share the best we have to offer, and not just what sells? > No they are not bad ideals but they are not acted upon by your Govt when abroad nor ours. Agreed. The U.S. has certainly done things that were at best stupid and at worst unjust and cruel. Actually, I'd ammend it to say "they are not acted upon often enough by..." The US and UK are not all good and not all bad either. Hope this makes things clearer. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:00:25 -0800 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: testing njc ignore [IMAGE][IMAGE]When someone tells me to ignore,I just can't. Are you testing nukes or what? Getting ready to give a stack of cash? Oh,I have such fun with you!! Bree - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:05:41 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC > I can't help thinking that the majority of Americans don't believe this. If they did, > wouldn't we have a higher voter turnout? Where is the patriotism on election day? This is one of my pet peeves! I've ALWAYS voted, except once when I was in the hospital a few days longer than expected. (Had I known, I would have voted by absentee ballot.) And yet, it's still government by and for the people, because people have the choice to participate or not. Mandating that people vote isn't democratic either. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 21:10:15 EST From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re:Kind words for Dolly(njc) Dear Fred, I am so with you on Alison Krauss! I could listen to her sing forever! She has a voice that comes out with such effortless beauty. Amazing! Not meaning to slight Patsy Cline. She is a classic talent. Any singer has to recognize Patsy talent. However, Alison Krauss is definitely "down my alley" musically. P.S....I've been noticing the return of the public to Bluegrass before and since the soundtrack of "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" It seems that with the cross over of many country artists into the pop mainstream there has been confusion by Country fans as to what was and wasn't country music. I just think that it is refreshing that the growing resurgence of Bluegrass music has taken Country music back to it's basic roots again. My opinion is that listeners will only allow their ears to be confused for a time before they decide to find a way to ground themselves again by choosing the music which speaks most to their hearts-whatever style it may be. In a message dated 03/14/2002 4:39:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > I'm with you on Patsy Cline. I'd highly recommend Alison Krauss, too, with > and without Union Station. > > - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:27:21 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni poster of TTT > Last year I purchased a promo poster of TTT album cover for $9.99. I don't > know if they still have them but it's worth a try at: > webmaster@turnabout-records.com > item description: Taming the Tiger promo-A Beautiful Joni Self-Portrait, > SKU: P63 > > Laurent On a related note does anyone know where I could get a 'Both Sides Now' tour shirt? The one I bought in Concord was mauled by a nervous kitten who got out of the yard and was startled while I was carrying him home. I also had big scratches on my stomach & chest. I did not, however, do harm to the little beast and he is still living with us. To forgive is, after all, divine. Your Divine Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:26:03 -0800 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Me too!, njc >LOADS!!!! The language is so different. Service was excellent. The best. >Food was good and cheap and plentiful(too much so). I know Europeans eat much smaller portions than Americans. You would die if you could see the amount of food consumed at a buffet I have been to. Fridays is seafood night. People literally have piled crab legs five or six inches above their plates. It is a freakin mad house.. people acting like they have never seen food before or like it will disappear if they don't grab it while they can. People literally fast walking to get to the food. It is quite hilarious. And the noise level;with even a Elvis impersonator gyrating right out in the pavilion etc.. I'm just as guilty.. except I don't care for crab legs. Bree >Not at all like I expected. I expected cabot Cove and genteelness like on >Murder She Wrote! > > > Bree > > >_________________________________________________________________ > Chat >with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > >-- >bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and >270, Passap 6000, Duo80. > >colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:57:25 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: My Ol KY Home njc This is so beautiful Bree. I have wanted to visit KY for decades...my grandmother used to tell me about her relatives that lived there...later I discovered that my Irish ancestors settled in KY & named their homestead after their Irish land. Maghera Glass. Anyone know exactly what that means...I think that is how you spell it. I would love to find where that is both in Ireland & Ky. I have always loved horses & used to watch the Ky Derby religously as a child...weird to feel such strong roots in places I have never actually been too. I did get close though...I finally made it to Nashville last year but didn't have enough time to get up to Ky. >>>You have the Lexington area when at times the grass really does look blue and time does really seem to have stood still. And you can see the horses grazing and running knowing there are potential Kentucky Derby winners behind those white wooden fences. And in the distant you can see these beautiful estates that resemble Tara.<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:57:23 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: VG8 - njc This is such cool info Marian...like Victor, the first time I tried playing it (hello, in front of people who I had never played for before at Kakkis...hope you destroyed that tape Kakki!) I felt like a foolish fish out of water...it was so weird not to have the feel of the guitar the way I was used to it...I look forward to the VG-8 workshop even though I don't have one (yet). >>I think it's possible to change the settings of any patch so that the sounds produced are more controlled by the actual force used by your fingers on the strings - it's one of the things I hope to learn more about from Michael at his VG-8 workshop in August at Jonifest. It could have been that the setting you were using when you played was one where the sensitivity of the strings was not turned up very high. Since I've had my VG-8 for awhile now, I've had time to discover that most (maybe all) of the factory acoustic guitar settings are such that if I try to play in the same way that I play my acoustic, I get the expected dynamics. Marian<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:57:26 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: nuclear weapons NJC Alison, ROTFLMAO as usual & Julius you blow my mind, yes you do... And to everyone else, thank you for your thoughts on these sensitive subjects. I am struggling to find the words to express how amazing it is to me to have so many viewpoints, including & maybe especially because of the international component here... >>and for those of you who didn't know before, julius has just blown his cover for his real job, CIA special tactics nuclear expert.<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:01:27 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: nuclear weapons NJC Julius Raymond wrote: > By the way, a distinction should be made between those "suitcase nuclear > bombs" and so called "dirty bombs." The suitcase bombs do exist, but it > takes a helluva lot of special nuclear material (plutonium) to make one, and > that shit is not easy to come by. Plus, the mere handling of that type of > material would kill any would-be user from exposure pretty quickly if > they're not really, really careful. Weapons-grade plutonium is not really that scarce-there is alot of it unaccounted for. When the Russian economy went down, not only did they get lax with their security, alot of physicists were out of work. There is plenty of missing plutonium believed to be on the black market and available for the right price. And considering all the suicide missions terrorists have done, personal safety isn't neccesarily a factor. A threat of this kind is, unfortunately, very real, and all the more reason to ban breeder reactors which create weapons-grade plutonium as a by product of electric generation. RR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:06:53 -0800 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: US involvement...gov't. by the people NJC On 15 Mar 2002 at 18:05, anne@sandstrom.com wrote: > And yet, it's still government by and for the > people, because people have the choice to participate > or not. But there is certainly something wrong if the apathy on election day is ultimately because people don't believe that their vote matters. Brenda n.p.: Ziroq - "Tierra del Sur" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:34:54 -0800 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Bush...big foreign companies...globalism (NJC) On 14 Mar 2002 at 20:57, Kakki wrote: > > I find a lot of the anti-American sentiment in the > U.K. and Europe just mindboggling. As if they can just ignore the > fact that it is their national corporations that are some of the most > largest and powerful in the U.S. The biggest oil corporations in the > U.S. are not named "Bush" but rather British Petroleum and (Dutch) > Shell Oil Company. Most of the major record companies are > foreign-owned. The German and British have the lock on the luxury car > market in the U.S. The largest pharmaceutical company is German and > several of the largest scientific concerns are also German. I heard > at one time that the largest personal landholder in the U.S. is Queen > Elizabeth. Yet their newspapers and citizens spit in our faces and we > are suppose to be intellectually above it all and demur cooperatively. > I cannot help but react to some of this at times - at other times, I > wonder why do I even care at all. I think the trouble with this argument is that the average citizen in one of these countries has about as much to do with their big multi-nationals as the average U.S. citizen has to do with General Motors or AT&T. They buy their products and if they're fortunate, they own some small bit of stock or a mutual fund that owns some stock. It wouldn't at all surprise me if, in some cases, actual ownership by U.S. citizens (via pension funds, 401k investments, etc.) was as significant as ownership by citizens of the company's home country. These companies may be based in one European nation or another, but they are multi-national and publicly traded. I bet that it would be difficult to find any publicized criticism of U.S. policy by any board members or senior executives at any of the above-mentioned concerns because they know that U.S. policy leads back to their protection on the inter-connected, global trail of wealth and power. Brenda n.p.: Ziroq - "Reina" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:53:36 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Cars and alternate tech. njc Bree Mcdonough wrote: > Americans plain and simple love their fast cars and big SUVs. Because they are agressively marketed to them > These > electric cars that only go 50mph are not feasible and are ugly to boot. And > believe me, if I had children I would have a SUV because they are safe. Not that safe. Although you have all that steel and ballast, because SUV's are so high off the ground, they are pretty easy to roll if you turn sharply at high speed-for instance, avoiding road debris. You would be better off with something like a Volvo, which has a strong steel framework built around the passenger compartment. On electric & hybrid cars: Electric cars, besides being slow and having a limited travel range between charges, are not really that ecological. It takes copious amounts of electricity to power them. Electric rates have soared- and most US electric power is made in oil-fired plants (nuclear is next), so they are still using oil. And anytime you convert one type of energy to another, you waste power, since no conversion process is anywhere near 100% efficient. Charging an electric car with solar power would require a larger investment in solar panels than the car cost you, or nearly so, and is only do-able in certain climates or during certain times of the year.(Although, in California, they will actually pay for part of the solar installation, and you can sell your extra power back to the utility, theoretically breaking even in 10 years or so.) The other problem with electric cars is that they run on heavy lead-acid batteries that have a limited lifespan before they need to be scrapped and replaced. I think electric cars are being sold to us by the oil industry, and are not a viable solution to anything! The major car manufacturers all have models on the drawing boards-some are available now. Much more promising is hydrogen and fuel cell technologies. Hydrogen technology has made great advances, and needs to be develped. It burns completely pollution-free. And you don't really hear about it. Also, bio-diesel, which, like Henry Ford's first car, actually runs on modified vegetable oil, with very low emissions. Hemp oil would work great, or some other legal plant source. Some cities are running their bus fleets on bio-diesel now. Kakki wrote: For years the people who have certain technology, such as for home solar generators, have charged an enormous amount for installation and maintenance of the units. Either the conversion technology/engineering has to become a lot more cost effective or some financial geniuses need to figure a better way to fund it. Nonetheless, I've heard many in the federal government and the Bush administration advocating moving forward towards alternatives. I guess I missed that announcement. I recall the Bush administration saying early on that oil and nukes were the way to go. But, having lived with alternative power for over 20 years, and having designed and installed many alternative power setups (mostly solar or solar/generator assisted), I disagree that "installation and maintenance" are the chief financial hurdles. The hardware itself is really the problem. Solar panels are very expensive, and generate power in small amounts, compared to what we are used to. We are energy junkies, and we are used to oil, which is an extremely cheap source of energy (unless you factor in the costs of the war machine that keeps it flowing). Try pushing your car the amount of miles that $2 worth of gas will take it and you will get an idea of how much power there is in petrol. A small gas generator can generate more power in a couple of hours than a moderate sized solar system can generate in a week. That said, if the government was not in the pockets of the conventional energy sector, and was willing to invest the money to do it, they could bring these prices way down. So far, budgets for alternative energy have been miniscule, regardless of political lip service about developing alternatives to oil and nukes. Again, hydrogen, fuel cells, wind power, tidal generators, etc could all be used to wean ourselves off of oil. But one of the biggest problems is that we are used to cheap oil. When you run off of alternative power, you have to count every watt. Leaving on a light is like leaving the faucet on. Electric heating is simply not feasable. I just read an article in the SF Chronicle about Holland. They are way into wind power and other alternative technologies, and the by-products from one factory go into some other factory to be recycled. It has created lots of jobs, and they have already met the goals of the Kyoto protocol ahead of schedule (which the US shamefully did not sign because of the impact it would have on "business"). We should be using some of that $1 billion dollars per day we are pouring into the military establishment for alternative energy, health care for all, etc. The investment in would be well worth the money. RR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:57:17 -0800 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: My Ol KY Home njc >I have wanted to visit KY for decades...my >grandmother used to tell me about her relatives that lived there... I hope you can somehow arrange to do this Kate. I just know that you would be inspired to write some beautiful music too. A working vacation maybe? >named their homestead after their Irish land. Maghera Glass. Anyone >know >exactly what that means..... Maghera e.g.. Magherafelt,Northern Ireland >weird to feel >such strong roots in places I have never actually been too. I did get close >though...I finally made it to Nashville last year but didn't have enough >time to get up to Ky. Did you perform in Nashville? I have a cousin who is a dentist and lives there. She grew up in Eastern Kentucky.. tried for years to keep her practice there.....but the people just don't get their teeth looked after like they should. Very poor area;all the mines stripped long ago. Let me know if you do ever plan to perform there? It is about only a six hour drive for me. Take care, Bree > >>>You have the Lexington area when at times the grass really does look >blue >and time does really seem to have stood still. And you can see the horses >grazing and running knowing there are potential Kentucky Derby winners >behind those white wooden fences. And in the distant you can see these >beautiful estates that resemble Tara.<<< > >******************************************** >Kate Bennett >www.katebennett.com >sponsored by Polysonics >Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: >http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html >******************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #117 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?