From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2002 #113 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, March 14 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 113 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: WTC memorial (totally NJC) [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: Free Joni cover ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: WTC memorial (totally NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: NYRO--Remasters! NJC [chiaroscuro@snet.net] Re: WTC memorial (NJC) [chiaroscuro@SNET.Net] Re:Very good "Be Good Tanyas" (NJC) [Susan Guzzi ] Re: Grace Slick NJC [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Bush (NJC) long [Susan Guzzi ] Kind words for Dolly njc [FredNow@aol.com] Coupla quick questions about pre-album joni songs... [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] (njc) How do you sell a car on-line? [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] (njc)Republicans busy at work...(long bunch of articles) [BigWaltinSF@aol] RE: NYRO--Remasters! NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Bush (NJC) long ["Kakki" ] (njc) Your elected offical, busy at work. [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 19:24:44 EST From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: WTC memorial (totally NJC) I like some of the things everyone has come up with. It is still too raw for me to really think about this, but I love hearing everyone's ideas! Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:55:09 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Free Joni cover This time 'round it's "Carey" by New Orleans sensation Theresa Andersson: > > http://www.rabadash.com/theresaandersson/ > > Happy listening! > > Bob Hey thanks, Bob! Pretty cool cover! Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 18:16:25 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: WTC memorial (totally NJC) > I like some of the things everyone has come up with. It is still too raw for > me to really think about this, but I love hearing everyone's ideas! > > Hugs, > Ashara > When the thread started I drew a blank. I had the SAG Awards on the night the 9/11 program aired. I didn't think I wanted to see the whole awful thing replayed again, up close & personal. It made my heart sink every time I saw the news footage replayed on TV. But Travis had the 9/11 program on in the computer room and I would pop in every now & then. I found it difficult to stop watching it once I started. What occurred to me last night was a park with a very simple monument in the middle of it. Two rectangular columns of stone with the same proportions as the towers and the victims names engraved on the sides. A plaque could be placed on the ground or somewhere nearby commemorating the event & describing what happened for posterity. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:43:57 -0500 From: chiaroscuro@snet.net Subject: Re: NYRO--Remasters! NJC Thanks Billy! This IS news! What do you think they mean "expanded" ? Did Laura record other versions? Long time Nyro fan, Heather At 09:36 AM 3/13/02 -0500, Wtking59@cs.com wrote: >Newsflash! > >Last night I happened to be surfing the AMG website (www.allmusic.com) and >found this instead. > >It seems Columbia/Legacy will soon be releasing new, remastered, expanded >(yes, expanded) versions of the following... > >1. "Eli And The Thirteenth Confession" >2. "New York Tendaberry" >3. "Gonna Take A Miracle" > >Can you believe it? Unfortunately, they're the only three they mention. >But hey--I'm certainly not going to complain. > >I think I'm in shock right now, but I had to share! I knew some of you would >want to know. >If I don't die from sheer anticipation, I guess I'll be alright. > >This is truly something of a miracle for us Nyrotics. >Does anyone else have any further information on this? > >XXXOOO, >Billy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:56:42 -0500 From: chiaroscuro@SNET.Net Subject: Re: WTC memorial (NJC) Dearest Mags! Here's a thought ..... I think music should be incorporated into the memorial. I'm not sure how. We are a complex world and do not live by sight alone (hence this list! :-) Maybe there should be some interactive process with the memorial and the Tears of A Thousand Years CD would be a form of world contribution. Thanks for lighting up ideas :-) Heather At 03:13 PM 3/13/02 -0800, Mags N Brei wrote: >Heather wrote: > > > < > > feelings on this matter. > > I think there are many folks, like Kakki, who's minds are " still > > kind of a > > blank on it ". Mine included. The wound is still too fresh. > > So what's my point? Only to keep discussing our emotions and > > resolve.>>> > > >Heather, I've enjoyed your thoughts as well as the thoughts and images >put forth by others ... and yes, as you say, the wound is still fresh.I >know that my post did not offer a solution to your quest, however, I >wrote what I did about the CD that the Canadian folk musicians have >created because I saw what it meant to each and every one of them to be >able to do that in order to help ease the suffering of others. We are >so deeply impacted here too. > >Music is such a great healer of pain.(one of the reasons Ive loved Joni >for all these years...it's all there). And I know that every time I >listen to that Tears of A Thousand Years CD, it helps, soothes, >comforts me, gives my feelings a place to go. Just as it helped me to >see the documentary. Very difficult to explain. The effects are far >from 'over'. > >I met a lot of the musicians after the concert that night and believe >me, they were just as moved as the we were. Lots of shared tears that >night and beyond. > > > >Mags. >npimh: My Last Breath, Katherine Wheatley >from Tears of A Thousand Years.. > > > >===== >You open my heart, you do. >Yes you do. > - JM >Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! >http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:05:01 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re:Very good "Be Good Tanyas" (NJC) Okay so who's gonna fess up and admit they watched the Fox Celebrity Boxing? In my channel flipping (yea I know it's supposed to be a guy thing), I did catch a few moments of Todd Bridges making slush out of Vanilla Ice. But I was wondering how the gals bout went. Did they wear "ChaCha Heels" in the ring? Also, what on earth was Clinton thinking when - never mind! Bob I agree, I hope John Waters was watching and please let him be the one to do the film of "Bill Clinton's Love Stories." Peace, Susan Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 00:15:02 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Grace Slick NJC I really enjoyed Mark's excellent illustration of Grace Slick and just "What was her deal?" I share his affection for Grace, her music, her mind, her person. She, and the Jefferson Airplane, were favorites of mine, and, to my ears, light years beyond other musical San Francisco treats circa the 1960s. I just finished reading her very enjoyable autobiography "Somebody To Love?" which I highly recommend to anyone who wants to get an authentic taste of what that era was all about, whether they are too young to have been there or they were there and therefore can't remember. It's an uncanny self-portrait, funny and literate, and made me love her all the more. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:51:23 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long Fred wrote: Damn straight, except you both forgot "curtail civil liberties and personal freedoms including that of reproductive choice." Anne wrote: Too true, Fred. And anyone who thinks dissention is un-American or un-patriotic hasn't read the Constitution. Well the both of you could not be more on target. Thanks for your words of wisdom. In all of this, we forget that someday we'll be ready to pick up with our freedoms again and they will be packed away! Oh yes I am prepared to pay a price for freedom, but I am not going to pay that price without getting the goods. And this administration is smugly pushing that envelope. This is from someone who does not believe in drug testing for a job, for government enforced seat belts, police roadblocks to entrap drunk drivers. It does not mean I am not for using seat belts, or that I am for drinking and driving, and drug use while flying a commercial airline. So please don't challenge me with the ridiculous. I also don't think I am funding terrorists because I smoke pot. No I think our stubborness in continuing to rely on foreign oil funds terrorism far more. Or those who adorn themselves with diamonds are culprits as well. Look out now - I'm beginning to rant & rave! Take a look at this administration's first judicial nominee - Pickering. This does not bode well for future Supreme Court appointees. I have no intention in getting into a point -counter point about this nominees ideology. Yes I agree Anne, I am most definitely a patriot! Not my country right or wrong, but my country, let's make right what is wrong! There is much chaos in the world right now. I continue, as I said after 9/11, to fear for us all. This administration's suggestion of nuclear usage is appalling and depressing. There is nowhere to hide so we must speak out to everyone from the most grassroot positions to voting choices to protest. This is not to be taken lightly. What freedom will there be to defend if we allow them to continue whittling away at those so precious to us now. This administration's tactic is fear and unfortunately it appears to be working. They are using it to push their agenda on all fronts. Sorry this went on folks, thanks for the bandwidth. I just couldn't keep it in anymore, guess it was time to push my agenda! PEACE Susan Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 00:58:42 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Kind words for Dolly njc Julius Raymond wrote: >Moreover, Dolly [Parton] has never struck me as a harbinger of that which >is pleasing to the ear. May I suggest you check out her two recent roots/bluegrass albums, The Grass is Blue and Little Sparrow? You might change your mind. She sounds exceedingly pleasing to my ears ... always soulful, sweet and funky by turns, and very down to earth. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 01:59:30 EST From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: Coupla quick questions about pre-album joni songs... Hi, all, These questions will only mean anything to those jmdlers who have seen or heard the songs in questions -- to all others, I think you can find the lyrics and, in some cases, the guitar tablatures, at . Ironically, I can't go there myself because my browser is mortally wounded, but that's another story, which i won't go into here... The questions: (1) This may be an old discussion for some of you, but the song "Just Like Me" almost seems like Joni's answer to the song (almost certainly by Dylan, but I seem to remember quite a few other people sang it, even at least one woman) that went: "She [blanks] just like a woman, She [blanks] just like a woman, And she [blanks] just like a woman, But she breaks (just) like a little girl." My memory of this song is obviously sketchy, but it came back to me when I heard Joni's "Just Like Me" (in which Joni describes the object of her affections as doing certain things, often confusing behavior, making him "Just Like Me"), which seems to be almost an answer to the (Dylan?) song. Is that possible? I don't know the chronology of the two songs, when each was written. Any comments? I know that Joni has at best mixed feelings about the Women's Movement, etc., but maybe she was fed up with lyrics like the above, in which underneath every together woman, there's a breakable little girl, and this was her response. Just a thought. (2) Another Oldie: "The Wizard of Is" reminds me, musically, of "Suzanne", you know, the one that starts "Suzanne takes you down/to a place by the river/..." I don't know who wrote it -- it may even be "traditional", but many artists have covered it. Anyhoo, "TWoI" reminds me musically (i.e., as opposed to lyrically") to the Suzanne song -- not exactly, but there are a lot of parallels. Anybody else think so? My apologies to those who haven't heard thre songs -- at least the lyrics to them are (I think) at jmdl.com. Musically yours, Walt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 02:18:21 EST From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: (njc) How do you sell a car on-line? Hi, all, This is part of a much longer story, but I'm trying to encapsulate it, and present it as a series of small tasks that need to be done. Experts say this is the best way to pull yourself when all hell has broken loose. Anyhoo, there's this big old car that my main squeeze has been given (by his mom). It's one of those old tanks from the late '70's/early '80's -- okay, just in case any of you might be interested (there'd be an 10% discount for any jmdler interested in this car -- I'm serious about this -- you guys have been supportive of me in these last few months, and well, the discount stands), it's specifically an '82 Buick LeSabre in nearly mint condition; R's mom literally never used it in the last five years, and just to get around town before that -- there's essentially nothing on the odometer. It's sort of a creamy off-white on the outside, and a plush grey/blue on the inside. The battery is dead for the moment, but it runs nicely when it's running I've driven it -- to big and heavy for my taste, but it looks nice. Okay, to my question -- my broswer is corrupted, and I'm waiting to find out from Apple how to fix that, but it will be fixed eventually -- but neither of us has ever sold a car -- we have no idea how to go about it. E.g., how does one sell a car on the internet? Go to E-bay? Yahoo? Is there a better venue, a place specifially dedicated to used cars? Any advice? Should I just put an ad in the local paper and skip the internet? I'm really lost. Thanks for any and all advice. fondly, Walt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 02:41:36 EST From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: (njc)Republicans busy at work...(long bunch of articles) The List > March 11, 2002 > > Folks, it's 2 in the morning and I've just written this story because my > blood is boiling. > > One of you out there just notified me that on Sunday > morning's "Meet the Press," Kenneth Feinberg, the head of the September 11 > Victim's Compensation Fund (a program of the US Dept. of Justice), is planning > on limiting what kind of compensation goes to gay and lesbian victims of the > September 11 terrorist attacks. And the way the rules read, gays and lesbians > will probably get nothing. Forget that Mark Bingham, a gay man, was one of > the heroes who brought United Flight 93 down in a field in Pennsylvania > instead of on top of the US Congress, where it was supposedly headed. And > forget that NY Fire Department Chaplain Father Mychal Judge was gay, as was > the copilot of the plane that flew into the Pentagon. No, according to John > Ashcroft's Justice Department, apparently some heroes are more equal than > others. > > This story is a must read. And pass it along to your friends. (Also, you'll > really want to check out the story online, as there are a lot of hyperlinks > in it to other good content about this issue, like John McCain's eulogy > of Mark Bingham, etc.) > > I just cannot express the depth of my anger. It's as though Ashcroft and > the Fund are suggesting that gay Americans did not suffer as much as > everybody else on September 11. I can tell you that for me at least, > watching the Pentagon burn outside my living room window is an image > I won't soon forget - regardless of what John Ashcroft and the 9/11 > fund think of me and my patriotism. > > Incredibly angrily yours, JOHN > > ---------------- > > 9/11 Fund to Discriminate Against Gays > About.com - US Politics > March 11, 2002 > by John Aravosis > > http://uspolitics.about.com/library/weekly/aa031102a.htm > > When Mark Bingham boarded the plane home that September > morning, he had no idea that within hours he would die a > hero. > > At 10:03 a.m. on the 11th of September, authorities believe > the 6-foot-5 rugby player from San Francisco was one of a > handful of passengers who brought United Flight 93 down in a > field in Pennsylvania. There were no survivors. Had Bingham > and his fellow travelers not acted, it is thought the plane > would have been flown into the US Congress. > > "It is now believed that the terrorists on Flight 93 intended > to crash the airplane into the United States Capitol where I > work, the great house of democracy where I was that day. It > is very possible that I would have been in the building, with > a great many other people, when that fateful, terrible moment > occurred, and a beautiful symbol of our freedom was destroyed > along with hundreds if not thousands of lives. I may very > well owe my life to Mark and the others who summoned the > enormous courage and love necessary to deny those depraved, > hateful men their terrible triumph. Such a debt you incur for > life." - (Senator John McCain's eulogy for Mark Bingham, > September 22, 2001.) > > But on today's six month anniversary of Mark's horrible > death, and the nation's greatest tragedy in decades, Mark > Bingham (in addition to other gay heroes of September 11) is > now officially being declared a lesser kind of hero because > he was gay. > > In an appearance on the Sunday, March 10 broadcast of NBC's > "Meet the Press," Kenneth Feinberg, the head of the September > 11th Victim Compensation Fund (a fund created by Congress and > run by the Department of Justice), said that gay partners of > the heroes of September 11th will not necessarily be eligible > for the same compensation as heterosexual family members who > lost their loved ones. > > According to Feinberg, lots and lots of people will receive > compensation under the plan, including children, babies, and > even fetuses. And as an indication of how generous the fund > will be, even illegal aliens, who aren't American citizens > and who are in the US in violation of federal law, will > receive benefits. Feinberg even says that the Attorney > General has promised that if undocumented aliens come > forward, they won't be kicked out of the country, and their > employers won't be penalized. "The attorney general, in > consultation with Immigration, etc., undocumented aliens who > come forward, the families will not suffer any consequences. > They are covered by this program. They will get a check. The > employer, where we need the economic information about the > undocumented alien, will not be penalized," Feinberg told > "Meet the Press." > > Yep, the Attorney General is himself willing to overlook US > law so that the victims of September 11 can be compensated. > > But when it comes to gay Americans who lost a loved one to > Mohammad Atta and his band of thieves, that's when Feinberg > and the Department of Justice suddenly do an about face: > > "[Gays and lesbians are] left out of my program to the extent > that their own state doesn't include them. I cannot get into > a position in this program, which has a one-and-a-half or > two-year life start second-guessing what the state of New > York or the Commonwealth of Massachusetts or the state of > Virginia or New Jersey, how they treat same-sex partners, > domestic live-ins, etc. I simply say this: What does your > state law say about who is eligible? If your state law makes > you eligible, I will honor state law. If it doesn't, I go > with the state. Otherwise, Tim, I would find myself getting > sued in every state by people claiming that I'm not following > how the state distributes money. I can't get into that local > battle. I've got to rely on state law." - Kenneth Feinberg on > NBC's "Meet the Press," March 10, 2002. > > That's a long-winded way of saying that if state law > discriminates against gay people, then so will Feinberg and > the 911 Fund. The problem for gay Americans who lost loved > ones on September 11 is that most states do not legally > recognize gay relationships, and the very few that do tend to > do so only for state employees, not for citizens at large. > And while a handful of cities do in fact recognize such > relationships, under Feinberg's formula, it's the state's law > that counts, not the city's. > > So, in the end, pretty much everyone who died - including > people who aren't even American citizens and were living in > the US illegally - will be honored by the September 11th Fund > as deserving of America's special recognition and thanks. > The sole exception will be gay and lesbian Americans, because > Feinberg and the 911 Fund wouldn't want to do anything > contrary to US law. (Unless of course it involves an illegal > alien who isn't even American - then apparently it's okay to > bend the rules.) > > On this six-month anniversary of the attacks on the World > Trade Center and the Pentagon, Kenneth Feinberg and the > September 11th Fund are telling the American people that > regardless of whether a gay man was one of the four heroes on > United Flight 93 who saved the US Congress and the White > House from utter annihilation, the 911 Fund plans to > discriminate against an American hero because most of the > country sanctioned such discrimination prior to September 11. > > If September 11 has taught us anything, it's that our > patriotism and love of country transcend our differences and > unite us all. It would be ironic if the generosity of so > many Americans in giving to the September 11th Fund were used > to further divide us as a people, and send the message to all > that some American heroes are more equal than others. > > I leave you with these words of Senator John McCain. > > "I never knew Mark Bingham. But I wish I had. I know he was a > good son and friend, a good rugby player, a good American, > and an extraordinary human being. He supported me, and his > support now ranks among the greatest honors of my life. I > wish I had known before September 11 just how great an honor > his trust in me was. I wish I could have thanked him for it > more profusely than time and circumstances allowed. But I > know it now. And I thank him with the only means I possess, > by being as good an American as he was. > > "America will overcome these atrocities. We will prevail over > our enemies. We will right this terrible injustice. And when > we do, let us claim it as a tribute to our liberty, and to > Mark Bingham and all those who died to defend it." > > - Senator John McCain, Eulogy for Mark Bingham, September 22, > 2001. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:48:22 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: NYRO--Remasters! NJC billy billy billy!!!!!!! what great news! i'm hopping up and down the boulevards and shrieking! when oh when oh when???? wally, seriously nyrotic - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Wtking59@cs.com Enviado el: Miircoles, 13 de Marzo de 2002 11:36 a.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: NYRO--Remasters! NJC Newsflash! Last night I happened to be surfing the AMG website (www.allmusic.com) and found this instead. It seems Columbia/Legacy will soon be releasing new, remastered, expanded (yes, expanded) versions of the following... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 23:19:20 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Bush (NJC) long I swore I wasn't going to get into this and am not looking for debate but I have honest questions about some of the statements: > Fred wrote: > Damn straight, except you both forgot "curtail civil liberties and personal freedoms including > that of reproductive choice." Can someone point to a source that will explain what civil liberties of mine have been recently curtailed (other than extra security measures at the airport). Also, what has recently happened to curtail reproductive choice? > Anne wrote: > Too true, Fred. And anyone who thinks >dissention is un-American or un-patriotic >hasn't read the Constitution. Anyone who thinks dissension is anti-American is very simplistic. Someone leaking classified reports from the Pentagon to a "commentator" at the L.A. Times during a time when we are trying to defend ourselves is another matter, IMO. Susan wrote: > This is from someone who does not believe in >drug testing for a job, for government >enforced seat belts, police roadblocks to >entrap drunk drivers. I don't believe in any of those things, either. > I also don't think I am funding terrorists >because I smoke pot. I heard something about this - what's it all about? > No I think our stubborness in continuing to >rely on foreign oil funds terrorism far more. I wouldn't be surprised at this point if 99% of Americans agree, including the administration. We can get our oil from many other sources (and if we don't want to drill in our own country, we can get it from other friendly countries in North America). A few people from the list recently told me, however, that the main reason we stay in the middle east is to protect Europe's access to oil and that the U.S. only gets something like 10% of our own oil from there these days. >This administration's suggestion of nuclear >usage is appalling and depressing. A Pentagon report (which I don't think any of us have seen) was leaked to a *commentary* writer who wrote about it in the L.A. Times. Not a factual news reporter. From there it was apparently picked up by the perennial anti-American U.K. Guardian and the Mirror, the same U.K. tabloid who published the full page photo screaming "Torture" about the U.S. treatment of detainees in Cuba. Just like a game of telephone (and to promote their agenda and sell papers) now they were saying that Bush was going to nuke a bunch of countries. Nonetheless, people all over the world are now screaming about it. Small tactical nukes have been around for at least a decade and from what I've read (although I don't know for a fact) were first developed by the Russians. Then the U.S. started development of their own and who know what other countries. They are nothing new and certainly not a sudden Dr. Strangelovian dream of the Bush administration. And no, this doesn't mean I am for nuking anyone. But I don't think all the agenda-driven hyperbole over serious matters is helpful for anyone. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 02:57:46 EST From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: (njc) Your elected offical, busy at work. Hi, all, Sorry I'm so political lately, but I guess when I'm teed off already, things like this don't help. It's a little long, and feel free to skip -- but i wish you wouldn't. Best to all, Walt From: Freedom To Marry [mailto:bulletin@EqualMarriage.org] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 3:41 PM To: Susan Packard Subject: Ban on Gay Marriages Amendment Now at Massachusetts State House There is a Constitutional Amendment being proposed, H4840, that will ban same-sex marriages/civil unions and nearly all legal protections for families formed by same-sex couples. It's moving through the State House quickly. There's so much else in the news right now, that the amendment is not being noticed. Opponents of the initiative need your help. This is NOT an "add your name to the bottom and forward" kind of thing. Go to the site itself in order to let your legislators know that you oppose the amendment. If you don't know names of your legislators the site will look them up for you. Please pass this along to your friends and family, gay and straight. By doing so, we convey the message that our Constitution is about Equality For All, and should not be amended to make gays and lesbians second-class citizens. PLEASE READ, CLICK AND FORWARD ON. http://EqualMarriage.org/doma.htm ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2002 #113 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?