From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #580 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, December 7 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 580 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in Joni History: December 7 [les@jmdl.com] Today's Articles: December 7 [les@jmdl.com] Some Guitar Advice (NJC) ["Kate Bennett" ] SINGERS NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: "covering" njc ["Marian" ] Re: All this talk about songwriting now... NJC ["Marian" ] Re: Joni in Seventeen [colin ] Re: Q's greatest female singers [FredNow@aol.com] Ho(e)s. NJC ["Mike Pritchard" ] Re: Covering NJC (long) ["Mike Pritchard" ] Jonifest 2002 Accomodation Update [AsharaProducLLC@aol.com] bedrooms and politics NJC [Mags ] re: songwriting (njc) [anne@sandstrom.com] Thank you Steve (njc) [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: Thank you Steve (njc) [Mags N Brei ] Re: PJ..PU! NJC [Reuben3rd@aol.com] Re: Salvation Army Bans Gays [long and njc] [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: PJ..PU! njc/now sjc ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Salvation Army Bans Gays [long and njc] [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: All this talk about songwriting now... NJC [Steve Polifka ] Re: NJC Re: Jonifest 2002- Beds [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Alicia's uninspiring Keys and PJ (NJC) ["Bree Mcdonough" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 03:04:10 -0500 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in Joni History: December 7 On December 7 in Joni Mitchell History: 1975: Today, the Rolling Thunder Review, including Joni, rolls into the Correctional Institution for Women at Clinton, New Jersey. Click the link for an entertaining look at the concert from a prisoner's point of view. More info: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/760115rsx.cfm - ------------------------ Search the "Today" database: http://www.jmdl.com/today ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 03:04:10 -0500 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Articles: December 7 On December 7 this article was published: 1974: "...and now it's Our Lady of Optimism" - New Musical Express (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/741207nme.cfm - ------------------------ The JMDL Article Database has 652 titles. http://www.jmdl.com/articles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 00:24:56 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Some Guitar Advice (NJC) nope, you have to go with your gut instinct on guitars (he he he)...truly, if you like you like...if not...keep looking...at last years NAMM show i was able to play a set in the Tayolor room...they let me pick any guitar in the place! my gawd...talk about a kid in a candy shop...yet i gravitated immediately to one guitar..& told them this is the one, it doesn't take me long to figure it out & the rep said that is the exact thing we are using in our ads...so my instincts say, a few minutes with a guitar & you know if its right or wrong... thanks for all the advice. i have decided not to go with it - i really thought i was being petty as i love everything about it, the action, the sound, the pick-ups, the looks (except for the plastic part), and the price. just the way the rounded back makes it sit on my lap, or even hang from its strap, i found to be awkward. i was told i was being petty, & that id soon get used to it etc, - but i see others feel the same way, so i think perhaps im not just being petty.<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 00:24:58 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: SINGERS NJC greatest singers? what a wacky list. i guess its subjective...carole king is one of the GREAT songwriters...but great singer? yoko on a great singers list? i'd put emmylou, anne wilson & bonnie raitt towards the top.. debby harry above aretha? it is all subjective i suppose >>1. PJ Harvey 2. Madonna 3. Kate Bush 4. Tori Amos 5. Bjvrk 6. Debbie Harry 7. Siouxsie Sioux 8. Joni Mitchell 9. Stevie Nicks 10. Janis Joplin 11. Aretha Franklin 12. Shirley Manson 13. Elizabeth Fraser 4. Courtney Love 15. Dusty Springfield 16. Chrissie Hynde 17. Patti Smith 18. Alanis Morissette 19. Sheryl Crow 20. Kylie Minogue 21. Dido 22. Missy Elliott 23. Gwen Stefani 24. Britney Spears 25. Allison Goldfrapp 26. Kim Deal 27. Billie Holiday 28. Dolly Parton 29. Sinead O'Connor 30. Diana Ross 31. Nina Simon 32. Fiona Apple 33. Carole King 34. Kim Gordon 35. Emmylou Harris 36. Kirsty MacColl 37. Frida/Agnetha 38. Suzanne Vega 39. Nico 40. Ella Fitzgerald 41. Marianne Faithfull 42. Aimee Mann 43. Roberta Flack 44. Sharleen Spiteri 45. Cerys Matthews 46. Mariah Carey 47. Yoko Ono 48. Toyah Willcox 49. Donna Summer 50. Sade 51. Justine Frischmann 52. Mary J Blige 53. Beth Gibbons 54. Anne/Nancy Wilson 55. Bonnie Raitt 56. Tina Turner 57. Joan Armatrading58. Cher 59. Beth Orton 60. Roisin Murphy 61. Nelly Furtado 62. Macy Gray 63. Gladys Knight 64. Natalie Merchant 65. Tracy Chapman 66. Shania Twain 67. Lil' Kim 68. Bessie Smith 69. Grace Slick 70. PP Arnold 71. Whitney Houston 72. Janet Jackson 73. Pat Benatar 74. Shelby Lynne 75. Cyndi Lauper 76. Grace Jones 77. Destiny's Child 78. D'Arcy Wretsky 79. Annie Lennox 80. Laurie Anderson 81. Sandy Denny 82. Suzi Quatro 83. Spice Girls 84. Alicia Keys 85. Ronnie Spector 86. Neneh Cherry 87. The Corrs 88. Maureen Tucker 89. kd lang 90. The Slits 91. Girlschool 92. Aaliyah 93. Laura Nyro 94. Etta James 95. Karen Carpenter 96. Alison Moyet 97. Lucinda Williams 98. Salt-N-Pepa 99. The Go-Gos 100. Sister Bliss<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:53:27 +0100 From: "Marian" Subject: Re: "covering" njc I'm so frustrated because I am home today and I can only send mail thru my mail program, but cannot figure out how to get it and am using a very ***SLOW*** online imail program. Anyway, I just wanted to add a little bit more to what I said yesterday which I feel I really didn't get across. Okay, Fred, I guess I just used the wrong words again. What you are talking about is comparing - subjective vs. objective - to arrive at an assessment of excellence. What I am talking about is feeling frustrated at all of that - of all of the comparing that goes on. I guess it is unavoidable in our world. What I am also talking about, though, above and beyond and apart from my frustration, is that there is value in effort. I wasn't trying to say that KG is the best saxophone player (I don't even know if he even *plays* the sax), but that in my opinion, in an ideal world, his playing at any given moment would only be compared to his playing at any previous moment. That there is value in the process of attempting to bring beauty into the world. I am talking about process. About valuing the process. You are talking about final products - about comparing the final products of one person to those of another or others. Marian What I mean is: What I am talking about is: ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:02:16 +0100 From: "Marian" Subject: Re: All this talk about songwriting now... NJC Thank you for sharing your thoughts on songwriting, Steve, and for the beautiful poem. It made me cry. Reading things like this from other people who are writing songs is very helpful. I don't know if I will ever be able to write words in this lifetime, but I'm sure all this good information is going into the old soul somewhere and someday I will find my voice. It's interesting to hear that dry periods can happen for as long as two years. Do you get nervous when that happens? Or is there a basic trust that inspiration will come again? Do you try to write anyway during those times - sit down on a regular basis with a pen and just see what comes? What is your process in the dry times? Anne's lyrics/poems are very exceptional. I'm not so familiar with Kate's, but I hope to be as soon as her CD arrives. Yours are also very moving, Steve. Marian On Thu, 06 Dec 2001 12:32:14 -0600 Steve Polifka wrote: > Gone are half the leaves on just one side > Of a tree displaying red and gold > But only to my pen I will confide > That half my heart I gave you to hold > Why can't I let go of this dread > That I've slipped and fallen > As tears escape, I turn my head > Could it be my heart that yours is calling? > Oh, I'll catch you if your falling... > > What is the Distance of Your Heart > Is it just the many miles that's tearing us apart? > For this voyage I have no chart > Longing sighs > Cloud up the skies > Tears in your eyes > With passion and such grace... > How I long to see your face... > > c 2001, Steve Polifka Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:14:54 +0100 From: "Marian" Subject: Re: lyric writing (NJC) On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:01:50 +1300 "hell" wrote: > I've never had trouble coming up with words, > and have written several things that could pass > for song lyrics, but I'm pathetic when it comes > to music. Everything comes out sounding like > a nursery rhyme! Well, say, Hell! Maybe we should get together and try to come up with something! Marian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:30:35 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni in Seventeen > because she has had tonnes of opportunity so you weigh in metirc too in Canada? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 04:39:23 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Q's greatest female singers "Wally Kairuz" wrote: >someday [Karen Carpenter will] be >appreciated for what she was: one of the best singers ever. I've always thought so. Damn good drummer, too. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:17:53 +0100 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: Ho(e)s. NJC Rose called herself >>the muzic hoe in nj<< Is this 'hoe' as in 'ho' that bell hooks uses a lot in her books? What does it mean exactly? Can anyone recommend a comprehensive up to date dictionary of US slang? Thanks. mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:20:32 +0100 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: Re: Covering NJC (long) Marian said >>Within the context of Kenny G, he might be playing saxophone better than he ever played before - to the best of his ability. There is value in that effort at perfection. << Fred said >>Why, for instance, almost 200 years after his death, do most of us still agree that Beethoven was a great composer? It can't only be because a lot of people simply dig his music ...<< now me: If we look at people who write words instead of people who write and play music, then perhaps we can ask, and provisionally answer, another, related question. "What's the difference between writing and literature?" Answer- "Literature (the big L is important) is what gets taught in school/university" (in preference to other stuff which is written but not considered worthy of being taught). Artistic judgments are made, obviously, but the argument is about the criteria used when making these choices. In relation to literature, at least in the 'west', we have what Harold Bloom refers to as 'The Western Canon' and this canon is chosen by a very small number of academics, based on whatever criteria they decide is relevant. Thus if, say, Mike Pritchard, were considered an important and / or influential author by Malcolm Bradbury, David Lodge, Frank Kermode etc (in the British context; substitute Bloom, Said, Sontag, Culler etc in north america) then his work would appear on the curriculum at the universities where they teach and thus successive generations would study his work, doctoral theses would be written about him and his work, and these doctoral students would, once they get tenure, specialise in the teaching of his works. Thus successive generations etc. The publicity snowball effect works here too. The book reviewers are frequently influenced by what the academics believe to be 'worthy' books (after all, the reviewers are often the same academics) therefore elevating the sales of the books (frequently written by their colleagues) and reaching a wider audience. Thus we have a nice little mutual back-scratching mafia saying wonderful things about each other's novels. Look at the nepotistic and incestuous (do I go too far?) novels and reviews by Amis, Hornby, Barnes, McEwan and others in the british arts scene. I'm sure jonilistas in the US and Canada can think of similar cases over there. I'm not saying there are people in the canon who don't deserve to be there, or that the canon excludes people who deserve to be in - this is a much longer and complex argument - but the point is that some are in and some are out, some are good and some not so good. Unfortunately there will always be people who are unhappy with what is defined as literature, and often rightly. To try and tie in Fred and Marian's arguments I would agree with both of them up to a point. Beethoven has lasted because he is a canonical composer; he has entered the pantheon of composers, and has achieved all the 'solidity' associated with the metaphor. Many people would name him as an important composer or as their favourite composer without knowing much more than the opening motif (is it sacrilegious to say 'riff' here?) of the 5th symphony, or 'Nessun Dorma' as sung by Pavarotti, best known to brits from the 1990 soccer world cup. Many people would instinctively screw up their face at the name Stockhausen and Schonberg (AO accents omitted) yet would be hard pressed to say when they have heard anything by these composers. The reputation (and what is fashionable) is all. 'Land of snap decisions, land of short attention spans, nothing is savoured long enough to really understand'. People don't have enough time or inclination to do the work, they base their artistic criteria on Sunday Supplement reviews and decorate their coffee tables with the flavour of the month. How many times have we heard people talk of the works of Toni Morrison, James Joyce, Heinrich Boll and Julio Cortazar (AO) when they have only, at best, a superficial passing relationship to their work? Remember Woody Allen's scene in 'Annie Hall' about Marshall McLuhan? There is so much bullshit about that it is wonderful to read people on this list who have taken time to get under the surface of the work. Thanks for enlightening me / the others. Kenny G may 'technically' be a very good musician (damning with faint praise!) but lacks something; call it soul, call it feeling, call it what you want but whatever it is, it's not there when you hear him play. Michael Bolton singing like Marvin Gaye is another example. Technically, I suppose Bolton is a good singer (what do I know?) but he leaves me cold. Some players are 'inferior' but have 'it'; maybe 'emotion' is the word. I love Miles Davis and happily accept that there are other, better players than Miles but he does it for me. Think of the absurdity of those comparisons of the fastest guitar player. When I was a teenager everyone talked about Alvin Lee of Ten Years After as the bees knees 'cos of his speed. Well, speed isn't everything, but put that speed together with technique and 'feeling' and you have the makings of a great guitar player. I'm thinking here of Albert Lee but jonilistas will be able to choose their own favourites. Marian, Kenny G may be able to play better now than when he was younger and may be putting more effort and 'art' into his playing and that effort does have value, but for me he is objectively and subjectively inferior to Wayne Shorter, Jan Garbarek and Courtney Pine to talk of only three current soprano players. One of my all-time musical highlights was listening to Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock's quartet playing here in BCN in around 1994. They played a piece without bass or drums, just the two of them, a very slow, tender, beautiful piece of music which was as perfect as music can get. If I ever reach that state of bliss again I'll be very happy, and I'll let you know about it. I can't imagine Kenny G, the Jeffery Archer of Soprano players, even getting close. Sorry this was so long, it's a long weekend here and there's nothing worse than someone with opinions, a modem, and with time on his hands. mike NP Jim Hall et al 'Concerto' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 07:25:13 EST From: AsharaProducLLC@aol.com Subject: Jonifest 2002 Accomodation Update YIKES!!!!!!! Because of the number of people choosing single rooms, the bed accomodations are going much faster than I anticipated. There are a total of only 29 rooms at Full Moon, and I really expected most people would opt to share rooms. 23 rooms are already spoken for which leaves only 6 rooms left. Please get your deposits in as soon as possible if having a bed to sleep in is important to you. ALL THE SINGLE ROOMS ARE NOW SOLD OUT! The remaining rooms are double occupancy. Two of the rooms that are left have 3 beds in them, so if you would like to have 2 other roommates, please let me know! Pajama party!! YAY!!!!!!! There may be another accomodation possibility that Full Moon is thinking of adding by the summer, but they won't decide that until the beginning of the new year. Of course, I will keep you posted as soon as I know anything. Camping: There is still plenty of camping space available. Does anyone that is coming have an extra tent/sleeping bag you could lend people? I was thinking that there might be people that have opted for a room, but have camping equipment they would be willing to loan out to people that are flying in. Please update your Jonifest forms to indicate whether or not you have equipment to loan out. BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION!!!!!!!!! I was planning on arriving at Full Moon on Thursday anyway, to make sure I would be there for the earliest arrivals on Friday. The fact is, that date also just happens to be my birthday! :-) So....anyone that is interested on arriving Thursday and having a little extra connecting time and birthday celebration time, please let me know by indicating that on the new addition to the form. There will be another group there that evening, so there will be limited space Thursday night. It would be wise to decide soon. The added charges will be somewhere between $70-$115 for the night, not including meals, depending on the room you have chosen. You can update your form to indicate whether you are interested in this. The Jonifest 2002 can now be accessed through a link on the main JMDL page at: www.jmdl.com PERFORMANCES: Every single person who has chosen to perform has signed up for Saturday night! I understand that the thinking behind this might be that the Northeast Jonifests in the past have been only one main day of "scheduled" performances. However, as of this year, the length of Jonifest has tripled, and all 3 nights will be scheduled performance nights. I am hoping that each of you will go back and rethink your performance requests. If people do this voluntarily, when it comes time to schedule people, it will make the job much easier. Thanks!! Lastly, my apologies once again to the Joni-onlys, but I am trying to make sure everyone gets the information in these early stages of planning. Please, everyone who is even thinking of attending, sign up for the Northeast Jonifest mailing list whihc you can access from the Jonifest page, so we can do the updates over there. Thanks for you indulgence. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 08:42:18 -0500 From: Mags Subject: bedrooms and politics NJC Lama wrote to Mack: <> when I read this, I could not help but be reminded of a phrase that was central to my feminist politics courses at York University, a phrase which made so much sense to me, then and now, a phrase which is woven in to the very fabric of my life, still... "the personal is political" for some people, the aforementioned phrase has moved them to effect change not only in their own life, but in the life of others. Mags np: The Magdalene Laundries Turbulent Indigo - -- And this loving is a drawing close, a tuning in, an opening. Until one perfect moment; but how can it be expressed? A receiving, an enfolding as I cradle you in my arms. Within my heart, within my soul, You are my true love. --Lui Collins - --- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ ------------------------------ Date: 7 Dec 2001 05:58:47 -0800 From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: re: songwriting (njc) Marian said: I would love to go to a music workshop someday. That is something I have never done. It is very interesting to hear that crying/feeling extremely nervous is a common thing when sharing a new song. I don't feel like I'm a nutcase! Crying is something that I can't seem to prevent, no matter how hard I try. I wish I had more control sometimes. It can be very embarrassing. Yes, it's hard to share your own songs, especially at first. I used to get together with a bunch of other musicians every week to play, mostly covers. When I started writing, I'd drag one or two people into another room to play my latest creation. Then, when I joined a songwriting group it got easier. We were all supposed to write a song a week to present for critique. It was more embarassing to say you didn't have a song than to present something that was a "throw-away." So, I always had something, except for some reason the times that John Gorka stopped by. Then, I'd have to hang my head and mumble "I don't have a song..." How embarassing! lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: 7 Dec 2001 06:03:41 -0800 From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Thank you Steve (njc) Steve wrote: Anne's lyrics are emotionally powerful... Thank you so much Steve! What a nice thing to say! I really like what you've written. The image of the tree with half its leaves is very effective. Nicely done! lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 06:41:49 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Thank you Steve (njc) - --- anne@sandstrom.com wrote: > Steve wrote: Anne's lyrics are emotionally powerful... > and then Anne wrote: > <> > > < its leaves is very effective. Nicely done!>> > and now me: I agree, Anne, your lyrics are emotionally powerful. And Stevie baby...when I first read your lyrics..well, you know my reaction, tears...my litmus test, passed with flying colours. And oh the colours of your words are so beautiful and tender and evoke so many images. thank you for being so brave and for sharing them... Mags xo np: Lovers in a dangerous time, Bare Nekked Ladies ;P n ===== I've got you to see me through, looking out for what I do Spreading sunshine from the skies, placing rainbows in my eyes Got you watching out for me, making sense of what I see When my world is wearing blue, I've got you to see me through . - ---by Eleanor McEvoy on her album Yola (2001) . Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 10:01:09 EST From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: PJ..PU! NJC I thought that "Stories from the City..." was far better than "To Bring You My Love". TBYML was one album in college that I actually grew to detest, and the new one really surprised me. I'd give it a listen before you judge it by "Down By The Water" (the fish song) :) And Bob, Liz Phair has never done much for me either. Reuben SCBob wrote: I have to admit that I have not...BUT I heard (more times than I wanted to) the single that got all the airplay about 'swimming with the fishes' and I have to say that it made my flesh crawl. It made me wish I had never been born. Fearing that I might be driven even closer to the brink of insanity, I've never sought it out to hear the rest of it. How does it compare to "Stories..."? Perhaps one day I'll get up the courage to listen to the whole thing. I DO recall that many critics sang the praises of it, BUT many of the same critics also dig Liz Phair, and except for Exile in Guyville she's always left me scratching my head. Thankfully she's so consumed with being a Mom she hasn't foisted any more product onto the public. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 07:33:49 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Re: Salvation Army Bans Gays [long and njc] Kakki asked: > Do you know which Republicans have held this up, > which states are they from > and what has been their objection? House Leadership through those years, who are the ones who control what comes up for a vote: Gingrich, Armey, and most of all Delay. First is GA, latter two are TX. Their arguments deem such legislation to be creating "special rights for homosexuals." > Will this be and > amendment to the > existing Federal law or a separate enactment? Amends the Civil Rights Act. > The original sponsor of the > bill is Christopher Shays, a Republican from > Connecticut, and there are a > number of other Republican co-sponsors to the bill. Of course there are. That's why I said "national Republican party" and not "Republicans." Chris Shays is an incredibly decent man with lots of positions contrary to party doctrine--and who, incidentally, was and is often in hot water with party leadership. The only reason they let him get away with so much is that he has to be that far left to win in his district. He is also a frequent target for party switching. The lead (former) Republican on this bill for many years in the Senate is Jeffords of VT. He, of course, is a Republican no more. The decision to have Shays be the *lead* sponsor is a tactical one made in concert with the Human Rights Campaign, lead lobby organization on this bill, for two reasons: a) it's unexpected, so enables "breadth of support" spin, and b) Republicans control the House. And the number of Republican sponsors has increased dramatically over those years as it has become less of a hot button issue. There used to be less than twenty. It's all fine and good to look at issues like this from an objective assessment of arguments on both sides perspective, but the reality of getting a law passed always depends on far colder political considerations. i.e., various Members may support the bill on principle, but are afraid that a vote for it would lead to a distorted :30 attack ad in their next campaign that would sink them. That's the *real* reason Republican leadership has prevented a vote: to prevent their Members from swing districts from having to go on record over a potentially explosive issue. That's also why so many Republicans were reluctant to sign on as a sponsor for so long. The issue is less and less explosive now, however, and that opens the door to let the actual arguments dictate the bill's success or failure. FWIW, the reason votes happened in the Senate under a Republican leadership is that the rules in that chamber are different, and under many circumstances any Senator can propose on the Senate floor to amend any bill with anything else. Kennedy proposed attaching ENDA to an unrelated bill back in 1996 and forced a floor vote. It failed by one vote. That proves my point--if forced to go on record there is support for this bill, but Republican leadership will do what it can to prevent such actions for purposes of protecting individual members and maintaining macro party relationships with important supporters/voting blocs. - --Michael NP: Alicia "Yawn" Keys, "A Woman's Worth" (on the radio) ===== ____________________________________________________ "I'm just a little bit heiress, a little bit Irish, A little bit Tower of Pisa whenever I see ya, So please be kind if I'm a mess." - --Rufus Wainwright, "Cigarettes and Chocolate Milk" Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:34:49 EST From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: John Kelley's Trav els (njc) Paz wrote: << and I do believe she mentioned the beautiful SF, as well as New Orleans. Yippie!!!!!! >> Yippie, indeed! Thanks, Paz -- walt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 07:37:51 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Veuve Cliquot (NJC) Kakki wrote; >Good memory you two about Dulson's preference for the Veuve >Cliquot over the Boones Farm - heeheehee I may be lurking, but I've got my eyes on you lot! :) I look forward to quaffing a heaping glass of Strawberry Hill with all my jmdl friends over the holidays, or in the early new year at the latest, Paz man. Happy Friday to all! - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 07:58:58 -0800 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: PJ..PU! njc/now sjc Ok, I bought .....Stories From The City,Stories From The Sea. And while the girl can really rock and she definitely has something.....she is not my cup-of-tea. I like more melodic tunes. I listened to it twice, once in a car (a friend of mine bought a new car and we listened to it and drove while I made notes and he showed off) and then at home. Now my friend and my brother who stopped by, really liked her!! They especially liked the raw rockers:The Whores Hustle And The Hustlers Whore. I like music to take me "away" and where I kind of loose myself ie time, space.......she didn't. (Joni does.......that is why it can be dangerous sometimes when driving:DWPJ (driving while playing Joni) Strangely though, I wouldn't mind seeing PJ play live. BTW, the singing on "Good Fortune" sounded awfully close to Chrissie Hynde (sp) ps. My brother received his Christmas present early. :-) Bree >BTW Bree, which disc did you buy> > >XXXOOO, >Billy > >np--"beautifulgarbage" by Garbage _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:02:07 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Salvation Army Bans Gays [long and njc] Michael, thanks for all of that information...certainly reinforces that Mack's fears about being gay in Central TX are WELL-founded. *My* state senator turned 99 this week, so he's doing good if he doesn't mess his pants... I've been conversing with my sister about this SA issue, and she told me that in the gay & lesbian community they call the slips "Don'tnations"...sounds like something the clever Mr. van Tiel would come up with. Also, regarding your NP: <> I don't see why Alicia has gotten all the attention, over other (and imo better) new voices like India Arie & Yahzarah. Is it strictly a physical thing, I mean the fact that she's so easy on the eye? She can sing great, but these songs are so weak, and so lyrically banal. Seems like the hype could be more evenly spread across the board, that's all. Bob NP: Dianne Reeves, "River" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 10:06:27 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: All this talk about songwriting now... NJC At 10:02 AM 12/7/01 +0100, Marian wrote: >Thank you for sharing your thoughts on songwriting, Steve, It's interesting to hear that >dry periods can happen for as long as two years. Do you get nervous when >that happens? Or is there a basic trust that inspiration will come again? >Do you try to write anyway during those times - sit down on a regular basis >with a pen and just see what comes? What is your process in the dry times? Hi Marian, Fortunately, I have many creative outlets. Many times during my dry spells, I may be co-writing with my friend Lafayette, a gospel singer, or Yolanda, another singer friend. I wrote a novel during the last spell- LOL! And I also have the visual and graphic arts. I do have this inner trust that it will return. And I don't try to edit or pre-empt my ideas anymore, or force them-(but if I get a lyrical idea, I will write it down.). For example, when I hear something in my head, I go right to my synth and lay it down on my sequencer or digital 4-track, even if it's just a riff or a song snippet. I trust that if it's coming out, it's coming out! As if the song evolves on its own. Sometimes I can 'see/feel/taste' the creative process while it happens- all internal dialogue is gone and you are in a 'zone'. But when I try to remember that moment, or relay that experience to someone else, I can't. Let's not forget AFTER the song is done (now this is your baby and you love it) and you listen to it and think: okay, is this any good? LOL! So I (laughably)call up my musician friends and play it for them over the phone just so I won't sit for a few days wondering if my song needs to be filed.(in the trash-lol!) These days I am much more confident of my material. Don't be afraid to try something, Marian. Some of the songs I've written that I though no one would like turned out to be my most popular... Hugs, Steve Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:47:40 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Re: Alicia's uninspiring Keys and PJ (NJC) Bob asked about Alicia Keys: > Is it strictly a physical thing, I > mean the fact that she's so easy on the eye? Not to mention that she's biracial (recalls Mariah Carey's success), which can't hurt the crossover appeal. I'm sure she reads as "white" to some and "black" to others. Of course, unlike Mariah, Alicia uses strong black racial signifiers like those famous and fierce braids. > She can > sing great That's actually what mystifies me the most--her voice sounds pretty pedestrian to me. Her tone sounds like any anonymous black girl in church. The way Mary rasps and Erykah flattens her tongue against the roof of her mouth--these create distinctive voices. But I don't hear it with Alicia. And yes, the songs are derivative at best, boring at worst. All the hard-core music fans I know are mystified by her success, but the homebound 40-something white suburban soccer moms in my office go crazy for her. Even *with* the braids (and the profanity). She's touching some kind of nerve I just don't get. As boring as I find her, I find the phenomenon of her success fascinating, since I don't even feel like she's been marketed *that* aggressively. Weird. So you've found Yahzarah!! I'm so glad--she's a trip! Very much in the Erykah/Jill boho bougie black soul vein, but with her own take. I dig her. And that voice!! Also peep the Jill Scott live album. It is fiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeerce!! One of the best live albums I've heard, and better than her studio work, IMO. Complete reworkings of most tunes, and some hellfunny between-song dialogue. She just keeps getting more charismatic. Even better: the second disc includes a great house remix of "He Loves Me" that's been spinning in the more stylish clubs lately as a hidden track. Not quite the same as hearing it with a club sound system, but great to have on hand. And to save a post: Bree, glad you got the PJ. I understand it's not your cup. But I was a little confused by your statement tat you like "more melodic" music--the hooky melodies are one of my favorite parts. Listen to "This Mess We're In" with Thom Yorke on headphones a few times. Sweeping, dramatic melodies. But mostly, thanks for giving it a chance!! - --Michael NP: Four Tops, "Ain't No Woman (Like the One I Got)" ===== ____________________________________________________ "I'm just a little bit heiress, a little bit Irish, A little bit Tower of Pisa whenever I see ya, So please be kind if I'm a mess." - --Rufus Wainwright, "Cigarettes and Chocolate Milk" Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 12:36:52 EST From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: PJ..PU! njc/now sjc bree_mcdonough@hotmail.com wrote: Ok, I bought .....Stories From The City,Stories From The Sea. And while the girl can really rock and she definitely has something.....she is not my cup-of-tea. I like more melodic tunes. I listened to it twice, once in a car (a friend of mine bought a new car and we listened to it and drove while I made notes and he showed off) and then at home. Now my friend and my brother who stopped by, really liked her!! They especially liked the raw rockers:The Whores Hustle And The Hustlers Whore. I like music to take me "away" and where I kind of loose myself ie time, space.......she didn't. (Joni does.......that is why it can be dangerous sometimes when driving:DWPJ (driving while playing Joni) Strangely though, I wouldn't mind seeing PJ play live. BTW, the singing on "Good Fortune" sounded awfully close to Chrissie Hynde (sp) (end) I was afraid she might be too 'hard' for you, Bree. I almost e-mailed you earlier to warn, 'if you don't like Patti Smith, stay away..." Personally, I think you probably made the best choice ("Stories..."). I agree that "The Whore's Hustle And The Hustler's Whore" is fab. Probably my personal fave on the record. However, the new single ("This Is Love") is a blast as well. I'm surprised you weren't knocked out by "You Said Something" and a few of the others--like "Beautiful Feeling"--that are (relatively speaking) a bit more sedate. And if you think DWPJ is dangerous, imagine DWPPJ. Watch out! But then I guess you got a taste of that yesterday, didn't you? :-) And Michael, have you heard Ute Lemper's "Punishing Kiss"? Another album that has that dramatic, European, cabaret-type feel (like "To Bring You..."). Marianne Faithfull's record "20th Century Blues" is another one, recorded live in Paris at "The New Morning" club. And finally---for the real thing---check out Lotte Lenya's (wife of Kurt Weill) old recordings. Or Edith Piaf or Marlene Dietrich, for that matter. XXXOOO, Billy np---"The Vogue Years" by Francoise Hardy. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 12:36:56 EST From: AsharaProducLLC@aol.com Subject: Jonifest 2002- Beds I have had several e-mails from people saying that they really wanted a single room and that they were not comfortable sharing a room with someone they don't know. I am encouraging you all to be a bit more open minded in that regard if this fest is going to work. At my house, people were packed in like sardines into every available space I had, and what I found was that not only did it work beautifully for everyone, but many deep and lasting friendships were made *because* of it. Full Moon is not a large place, but it really is more than big enough if we can all shift into the spirit of grace and cooperation. For this fest to work, and for us to be able to have everyone that wants to be there be able to come, we need to use all the available beds we can. It's not the Ritz, I've already said that, but you probably won't be spending that much time in the room anyway! Thanks, everyone. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:55:11 -0600 From: "Sybil Skelton" Subject: Re: Alicia's uninspiring Keys and PJ (NJC) "All the hard-core music fans I know are mystified by her success, but the homebound 40-something white suburban soccer moms in my office go crazy for her. Even *with* the braids (and the profanity). She's touching some kind of nerve I just don't get. As boring as I find her, I find the phenomenon of her success fascinating, since I don't even feel like she's been marketed *that* aggressively. Weird." You have homebound soccer moms in your office? Just what kind of business is it anyway? Seriously, don't rag on the girl too much. She actually plays an instrument, fairly well apparently, and she writes her own songs, banal as they may be, and she really sings with her real voice. And from the perspective of the mother of a 12 year old girl, she thankfully is more famous for her vocal chords than her belly button. I for one applaud the trend and will do nothing to discourage it. And besides all that, I found her performance on the Tribute to America program to be quite inspired and moving. So there! Sybil 40-something, white, not homebound, hates soccer _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:56:03 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Jonifest 2002- Beds <> I'll dovetail onto that thought...when we had the N'awlins fest, I *requested* a roomie, and was fortunate to have Bern take me up on my offer. I didn't know him well as he's mostly a lurker, and enjoyed getting to know him and talk to him one on one. I can *guarantee* that you'll make a good friend by following Ashara's advice. Hi Bern!! Bob NP: Rosanne Cash, "River" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 13:05:18 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Alicia's uninspiring Keys and PJ (NJC) <> Haven't picked that one up yet, but do have her debut which is also fii.....whatever! :~) I love her sound, and am glad to see the revitalization of true "soul" music. Except for the fact that she put all those damn 1-second "non-tracks" on it, so the only way I can play it on random is to dub the real songs (including the hidden track at the end) onto another CD. I do wish these folks would save the "clever" gimmicks. Joni does the same thing with the dead space at the end of "My Best To You", but at least it's just the one track and you can fast forward to Tiger Bones. What do y'all think: Hidden tracks, thumbs up or down? Bob NP: Sarah McLachlan/Lilith Fair: "Big Yellow Taxi" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:11:54 -0500 From: "michael o'malley" Subject: re: Blue lyrics About the Blue lyrics, I agree with Hell here, I think ``the ink of a pin`` is literally the tattoo ink (as introduced in the first line) and reinforced by the crown and anchor image - the tatoo - Blue's tattoo? The ``empty space to fill in`` works well as a metaphor for drawing, writing (a lyric on the page) and for filling the Void within, in this case, with too much partying - the hippest way to go. The sinking ones are referred to again as ``the millions of the lost and lonely ones calling out to be released `` and to be found (The Same Situation). I agree that the theme here remains, I love you but I can't deal with your addictions - in the broader sense. For me, the beauty of the shell image (retaining the nautical) is that she's saying to Blue, you have all the answers within. PS. I'm astonished at all the number of different references to the word blue in her work; clearly a recurring theme! Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:19:32 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Re: Jonifest 2002- Beds In a message dated 12/7/01 12:57:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: > I can *guarantee* that you'll make a good friend by following Ashara's > advice. > > Hell, I'll chime in here too. I didn't even know Alison when I attended my first Jonifest in 2000. We had only exchanged emails and pictures of one another so that we knew who the feck (sorry Wally) we were looking for in a pub in NYC, and which pub? The one across from MSG. Thank you very much LMAO. Neither one of us knew the name and it turned out we had completely two different pubs in mind. But after frantically combing the pubs around MSG, I found her!!! I'll admit there where times I wanted to kill her. (just kidding Ali, you know I love ya :) and we've played nicely together ever since..... rose in nj NP: Ryan Adams The Rescue Blues ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:28:50 -0800 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Alicia's uninspiring Keys and PJ (NJC) I think that maybe I like a tad more of a melodic hook than she imparts. But as we all know in a lot of Joni's music you don't always here the "whistle" part right away either. When I wrote my post this am I wasn't quite as clear headed as I am now........ and you are right Michael,"This Mess We're In"is indeed quite melodic and pretty. I had noted this on my scratch paper while critiquing it in my friend's car yesterday. BTW,Alicia Keyes is another I have to check out. There is a black woman that I employ who is nuts for her. She insists that I give a listen. ;-) Bree np: Riu Chiu, The Monkees >And to save a post: Bree, glad you got the PJ. I >understand it's not your cup. But I was a little >confused by your statement tat you like "more melodic" >music--the hooky melodies are one of my favorite >parts. Listen to "This Mess We're In" with Thom Yorke >on headphones a few times. Sweeping, dramatic >melodies. But mostly, thanks for giving it a chance!! > >--Michael > >NP: Four Tops, "Ain't No Woman (Like the One I Got)" > > > >===== >____________________________________________________ >"I'm just a little bit heiress, a little bit Irish, > A little bit Tower of Pisa whenever I see ya, > So please be kind if I'm a mess." > >--Rufus Wainwright, "Cigarettes and Chocolate Milk" >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! >http://greetings.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 14:31:11 EST From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: Q's greatest female singers I'm amazed and pleased to see Siouxsie Sioux in the top 10 as well. Next to Joni (and light years away stylistically) she's my favorite. What a voice. Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:34:08 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Re: Alicia's uninspiring Keys and PJ (NJC) Sybil taunted: > You have homebound soccer moms in your office? Just > what kind of business is > it anyway? They're only let out of the house to go to work and wheel the SUV to soccer practice. Nothing else. ;-) Seriously, I mention the demo/psychographic info not to rag on them, but just because they're not exactly who you'd *expect* to go for Alicia, but they love her. I'm fascinated by the obvious question: why? > And besides all that, I found her performance on the > Tribute to America > program to be quite inspired and moving. So there! Her rendition of the Donny Hathaway song was pretty good, and that is one of the things specifically mentioned by my officemates. In fact, there were a lot of surprisingly good performances on that show. It's the first time I've *ever* liked Faith Hill. Bob's question and mine is not so much why is Alicia as popular as the Belly Button Brigade, but why is she so much more successful than the Erykahs or Jill Scotts who ply similar trades with much more depth and unique charisma. To be fair, though, when Erykah broke I was surprised at how popular she *did* become. And Lauryn Hill is the obvious precursor to Alicia in the current generation of R&B/hip-hop crossover artists even your grandma loves--and she deserves every bit of it. As for playing an instrument--yeah, yeah, yeah, Alicia plays piano, classically trained, samples Chopin, blah blah blah. I think that's a pale explanation, though--her piano playing is just like her singing to my ears: as good as any talented and well-trained teenager but not really superstar quality. Tori, Fiona, Aretha, Nina, even Elton--those are singers who can PLAY, but Alicia seems just good enough. Maybe it's because she's so derivative. If "Fallin'" didn't sound so much like "It's a Man's Man's Man's World" she might be nowhere. Who knows? - --Michael NP: Depeche Mode, "I Feel High" ===== ____________________________________________________ "I'm just a little bit heiress, a little bit Irish, A little bit Tower of Pisa whenever I see ya, So please be kind if I'm a mess." - --Rufus Wainwright, "Cigarettes and Chocolate Milk" Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:56:48 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Re: eminem! berlin? vjc It is early yet for such inclusion, but I can see it being justified in a couple decades if he maintains and builds upon his current level of excellence. But we *know* what Jim Morrison's entire body of work looks like, and while it's great, it certainly doesn't rank with this list to my mind. Smokey Robinson? Leonard Cohen? Prince? - --- Wally Kairuz wrote: > whoa, scary... really scary. > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com > [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Les > Irvin > Enviado el: Viernes, 07 de Diciembre de 2001 01:28 > a.m. > Para: joni@smoe.org > Asunto: Re: Now, I like Debbie Harry. I really do > but..... > > > Even funnier than that is this poll from the BBC, > indicating the ten "best" > songwriters ever: > 1) Bob Dylan > 2) John Lennon > 3) Bob Marley > 4) Paul McCartney > 5) Paul Simon > 6) Cole Porter > 7) Jim Morrison > 8) Eminem <--------??????????? > 9) Joni Mitchell > 10) Irving Berlin > > Read it here: > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/010523bbc.cfm > > Les > NP - J.S. Bach "Prelude #7 in E flat minor BWV 876" ===== ____________________________________________________ "I'm just a little bit heiress, a little bit Irish, A little bit Tower of Pisa whenever I see ya, So please be kind if I'm a mess." - --Rufus Wainwright, "Cigarettes and Chocolate Milk" Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #580 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?