From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #578 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, December 6 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 578 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Some Guitar Advice (NJC) ["Ron Greer" ] Today in Joni History: December 6 [les@jmdl.com] economies (njc) ["Ron Greer" ] RE: economies (njc) ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: economies (njc) ["Ron Greer" ] Re: "covering" (NJC) [colin ] Re: elton john njc [colin ] Re: Who is Betsy...? [RoseMJoy@aol.com] RE: "covering" (NJC) [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Who is Betsy...? [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: "covering" (NJC) [RoseMJoy@aol.com] RE: "covering" (NJC) [M.Russell@iaea.org] Covers #24 - Time is running out! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: "covering" (NJC) [M.Russell@iaea.org] RE: "covering" (NJC) [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: elton john njc ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: PJ..PU! njc/now sjc ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: almost famous njc ["Mark or Travis" ] Q's greatest female singers ["Garret" ] Re: 100 Greatest Women of Music sjc/njc [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: "covering" (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: Rolling Stone George Harrison Tribute njc [slarty ] RE: lyric writing ["Donna J. Binkley" ] Re: "covering" (NJC) [FredNow@aol.com] scrambled eggs njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Joni in Seventeen ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: "covering" (NJC) [colin ] Joni Super Trivia Question [" Russell Bowden" ] Re: Who is Betsy...? [Bounced Message ] All this talk about songwriting now... NJC [Steve Polifka ] John Kelly have a website? (njc) [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] Re: John Kelly have a website? (njc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: John Kelly have a website? (njc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] re:Salvation Army Bans Gays [njc] [pyramus@lineone.net] Re: Salvation Army Bans Gays [njc] [colin ] RE: Q's greatest female singers [Bounced Message ] no no no no please no more njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: RE: "covering" (NJC) [FredNow@aol.com] Re: almost famous njc ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: what a bunch, njc ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Joni in Seventeen [Mags N Brei ] Re: Salvation Army Bans Gays [long and njc] ["Kakki" Subject: Some Guitar Advice (NJC) Hi thanks for all the advice. i have decided not to go with it - i really thought i was being petty as i love everything about it, the action, the sound, the pick-ups, the looks (except for the plastic part), and the price. just the way the rounded back makes it sit on my lap, or even hang from its strap, i found to be awkward. i was told i was being petty, & that id soon get used to it etc, - but i see others feel the same way, so i think perhaps im not just being petty. ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 03:27:38 -0500 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in Joni History: December 6 On December 6 in Joni Mitchell History: 1995: Joni receives the Billboard Century Award (their highest honor for creative achievement), broadcast live on Fox-TV from New York's Coliseum. From Wally's Bio Page: "Past winners of the Billboard Century Award include George Harrison, Buddy Guy, and Billy Joel. The award has been presented annually since 1992 to an artist to acknowledge the uncommon excellence of a still-unfolding body of work." - ------------------------ Search the "Today" database: http://www.jmdl.com/today ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:40:26 +0200 From: "Ron Greer" Subject: economies (njc) Hi >>Michael Paz wrote >>for the money and don't have access to getting what you want (wherever you >>live??? what are R5,000???), then go for it and happy music making. >>bob wrote >>By the way, Wally, I saw an article in this AM's paper about the Argentinian >>economy and its instability. Hopefully this hasn't impacted you and won't... R 5,000 = five thousand south african rands. yesterday when i posted a dollar was worth 10 Rand, today, as i write this, it is now worth 11 rand!!! talk about an instable economy!!! we lost 10% against the dollar in just over a day...... for some reason argentina is being cited as one of the reasons for our instability?? im an accountant, but i just dont get it.. ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 05:44:01 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: economies (njc) baby, no matter what you do, argentina is always to blame. wallyK, to blame - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Ron Greer Enviado el: Jueves, 06 de Diciembre de 2001 05:40 a.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: economies (njc) for some reason argentina is being cited as one of the reasons for our instability?? im an accountant, but i just dont get it.. ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:02:54 +0200 From: "Ron Greer" Subject: RE: economies (njc) hi wally >>wally wrote >>baby, >>no matter what you do, argentina is always to blame. oh well,,,, makes a change - we always used to blame zimbabwe. i suppose it all depends how you look at it - yesterday the price on the guitar was US$ 500 - today its US$ 450 - now thats what i call a bargain.... ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:33:26 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: "covering" (NJC) > But if everyone's work is equally > valid, if there is no attempt at objective examination, then what's > excellence? i see your point clearly. it is like looking at a knitted garment. I may not like it, but wouls still be able to see if it had been made well. Or conversely, I might like a garment for its colour/design or yarn but dismiss it if it has been badly made(like most of the stuff you can buy in shops!) > > > -Fred - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:36:19 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: elton john njc > sometimes when i listen to elton speak i think of colin & imagine that colin > looks kind of like elton... nope not all > colin, i hope this isn't a bad thing... he gives me the creeps so yes it is a bad thing! but don't worry, I shall forgive you! > i think > elton is cute now that he is acting more down to earth... > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > sponsored by Polysonics > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > ******************************************** - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:12:23 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Who is Betsy...? In a message dated 12/6/01 6:19:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, kingtony@dircon.co.uk writes: > Betsy was and is an old friend of Joni's. She was once married to Peter > Asher > and I saw her only last week when I was in L.A.......Meanwhile Joni has > been > recording her album here in London just up the road from where I live. It > includes "Hejira" and "The Last Time I saw Richard"....Thank goodness. > > Thank you Tony, this is all too wonderful rose in nj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:11:06 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: "covering" (NJC) Paz, you really bring a very special quality to Joni's songs with your deep and soothing voice and beautiful guitar playing (you have a magic touch on your VG-8!). I could listen to you for hours! Love, Marian On 06 December 2001 03:52, Michael Paz [SMTP:jmichaelpaz@telocity.com] wrote: > I guess I can be too self critical at times and to > me it doesn't sound exactly like she does, but I think it may be the > channeling from how the songs make me feel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 05:31:05 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Who is Betsy...? Thank you, Tony. And thank you Rose for the very right words, it's realy all too wonderful. Hey, but it's real! Nuriel - --- RoseMJoy@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 12/6/01 6:19:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, >kingtony@dircon.co.uk writes: > > >> Betsy was and is an old friend of Joni's. She was once married to Peter >> Asher >> and I saw her only last week when I was in L.A.......Meanwhile Joni has >> been >> recording her album here in London just up the road from where I live. It >> includes "Hejira" and "The Last Time I saw Richard"....Thank goodness. >> >> > >Thank you Tony, this is all too wonderful > >rose in nj _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 08:35:17 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: "covering" (NJC) In a message dated 12/6/01 8:17:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, M.Russell@iaea.org writes: > Paz, you really bring a very special quality to Joni's songs with your deep > and soothing voice and beautiful guitar playing (you have a magic touch on > your VG-8!). I could listen to you for hours! > > I concur ~rose ,the muzic hoe in nj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:41:16 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: "covering" (NJC) 0Thanks for sharing so much of your thoughts about this topic, Kate. It is especially interesting to hear from someone who has been doing original music and performing for a long time. I took a long pause in my musical endeavors and I feel like there is so much I don't know and probably never will, but it's a very fun process - there's so much to do and get involved in with music - it's infinite, really! So many instruments, so many types of music. A person could really pick just one thing and take it a long way. I would love to go to a music workshop someday. That is something I have never done. It is very interesting to hear that crying/feeling extremely nervous is a common thing when sharing a new song. I don't feel like I'm a nutcase! Crying is something that I can't seem to prevent, no matter how hard I try. I wish I had more control sometimes. It can be very embarrassing. > talent in the room that night that pulled me into the zone (I had only > moments earlier almost fallen off my stool, onto the guitar, & off the > stage, when I got my stoooopid clog heal caught in the rung...it would have > been really embarrassing & probably quite painful...something caught me cuz > I should have fallen...anyway the rest of my set was similarly visited with > divine intervention...a very rare otherworldly gift). I'm glad your angels were looking out for you! > I just cannot wait to hear you play Marian!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm really looking forward to hearing your music live, Kate. I've just listened to some of the samples on your page and ordered your CD from CDBaby. The samples sound very beautiful! I really admire you that you are doing your own music and hope we can spend some time together in August talking about music and maybe doing a bit of jamming together. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 08:45:31 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Covers #24 - Time is running out! Just a quick reminder that I'll shut down the contest for Covers #24 tomorrow night, so if you haven't guessed yet and want a shot at a FREE cd mailed to your doorstep, just send me an off-list mail guessing a song title and the record it appears on, example: Car On A Hill - Court & Spark Newbies, oldbies, and even Argentinians are welcome to guess! And if you DON'T win, just blame Wally! ;~) Bob NP: Tracy Chapman, "Subcity" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:04:33 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: "covering" (NJC) On 06 December 2001 05:39, FredNow@aol.com [SMTP:FredNow@aol.com] wrote: > I've said this before, and it bears repeating now. It's very important to > always keep in mind that there is personal taste, and there is critical > assessment, and these are two quite independent judgements. Personal taste is > completely subjective, and something with which you just can't (and > shouldn't) argue, but critical evaluation has objective components, such as > standards of quality based on a thorough working knowledge of the topic, and > a broader consensus tempered by historical perspective. This is the whole scientific approach, isn't it? But haven't they pretty much proven that expectations of observers can influence what is observed/concluded. I think it is extremely difficult to be totally objective about anything, but that's just my opinion, and I'm sure there are more than a few people on the list would could write pages and pages to the contrary. > To illustrate crudely, if someone says that Kenny G is their favorite jazz > saxophonist, well ... that's their taste (and their problem, as far as we may > be concerned). But if that person wants to extrapolate from their own taste > and claim that Kenny G is a higher quality saxophonist than, say Wayne > Shorter, that's pretty much wrong, plain and simple. But I think it's wrong before you even get to the conclusion. What is wrong, in my view, is comparing them at all. It's like apples and oranges. Within the context of KennyG, he might be playing saxophone better than he ever played before - to the best of his ability. There is value in that effort at perfection. KennyG's saxophone playing should only be compared to what he did before and not to what anyone else is doing. The effort (and maybe even the result in relation to previous efforts) is what I am talking about. That is where the value is - this is what should be valued. Anyone attempting to bring beauty into the world, in however humble a fashion, should be valued and encouraged. I'm speaking very ideally. I think comparisons can get us into trouble. I get frustrated with them. I think maybe I confused what I was trying to say about valuing effort by including all those names of people. What I meant to convey by including all the names was that the products of different artists appeal to different people because of individual tastes and therefore, the products also have value - this is what most people value or not. This is where comparisons and criticism comes into the picture. Maybe to someone, KennyG's saxophone playing transports them to another level of consciousness where they feel at one with the universe (or maybe that happens for him when he plays), but this is a different thing than the effort involved in creating the sound in the first place. > In other words, it's essential to not confuse one's own taste with critical > appraisal, especially when the two don't intersect. I think maybe we're talking about different things here. You are talking about taste vs. objective criticism, and I am talking about valuing the effort of trying to bring beauty into the world - not valuing the result, but valuing the process. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:05:22 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: "covering" (NJC) On 06 December 2001 11:33, colin [SMTP:colin@tantra-apso.com] wrote: > > But if everyone's work is equally > > valid, if there is no attempt at objective examination, then what's > > excellence? > > i see your point clearly. it is like looking at a knitted garment. I may not like > it, but wouls still be able to see if it had been made well. Or conversely, I > might like a garment for its colour/design or yarn but dismiss it if it has been > badly made(like most of the stuff you can buy in shops!) And if you were freezing to death in Sibera, you would be so grateful for something warm! ;^D Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 06:12:37 -0800 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: elton john njc Mack, I believe Elton has plugs. Plugs:Hair taken from the back of his head which is plentiful. Guaranteed forever!! >I have noticed his hairpiece. When he first >got it, it looked great, now it looks kind of silly. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 06:41:57 -0800 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: PJ..PU! njc/now sjc I got side-tracked yesterday so I didn't make it into the city to buy PJ. I have to take my poodle to be groomed in a bit and will stop and buy something of hers on my way home. I love listening to music in a car. Love it,especially someone I've never heard before!! I'll give my opinion tonight. (probably the two you mentioned,Billy) Bree >BTW Bree, which disc did you buy? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 06:45:08 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: almost famous njc > p.s. back in those days we actually said fecking when we meant the other. > it was socially acceptable. later I never did and don't recall ever hearing the fecking word until recently. Mark E. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:59:47 -0000 From: "Garret" Subject: Q's greatest female singers I'm sorry if this has been posted already, i'm way behind on digests. Here is another one of those somewhat questionable polls from Q magazine. This time they are are looking at the greatest female singers. Joni is in the top ten, not as near the top spot as I'd have put her. I think that i would rearrange the list with joni at #1, Patti Smith at #2, then alanis, madonna, annie lennox, bjork, tori amos, debbie harry, pj harvyer, fiona apple, in that order. However, it is great to see so many greats, like Marianne Faithful, Kim Deal, Nico, Karen Carpenter, Cher and Janet Jackson getting into the poll. No Jewel or Kiki Dee or Barbra Streisand, hhmmmm. 1. PJ Harvey 2. Madonna 3. Kate Bush 4. Tori Amos 5. Bjvrk 6. Debbie Harry 7. Siouxsie Sioux 8. Joni Mitchell 9. Stevie Nicks 10. Janis Joplin 11. Aretha Franklin 12. Shirley Manson 13. Elizabeth Fraser 4. Courtney Love 15. Dusty Springfield 16. Chrissie Hynde 17. Patti Smith 18. Alanis Morissette 19. Sheryl Crow 20. Kylie Minogue 21. Dido 22. Missy Elliott 23. Gwen Stefani 24. Britney Spears 25. Allison Goldfrapp 26. Kim Deal 27. Billie Holiday 28. Dolly Parton 29. Sinead O'Connor 30. Diana Ross 31. Nina Simon 32. Fiona Apple 33. Carole King 34. Kim Gordon 35. Emmylou Harris 36. Kirsty MacColl 37. Frida/Agnetha 38. Suzanne Vega 39. Nico 40. Ella Fitzgerald 41. Marianne Faithfull 42. Aimee Mann 43. Roberta Flack 44. Sharleen Spiteri 45. Cerys Matthews 46. Mariah Carey 47. Yoko Ono 48. Toyah Willcox 49. Donna Summer 50. Sade 51. Justine Frischmann 52. Mary J Blige 53. Beth Gibbons 54. Anne/Nancy Wilson 55. Bonnie Raitt 56. Tina Turner 57. Joan Armatrading58. Cher 59. Beth Orton 60. Roisin Murphy 61. Nelly Furtado 62. Macy Gray 63. Gladys Knight 64. Natalie Merchant 65. Tracy Chapman 66. Shania Twain 67. Lil' Kim 68. Bessie Smith 69. Grace Slick 70. PP Arnold 71. Whitney Houston 72. Janet Jackson 73. Pat Benatar 74. Shelby Lynne 75. Cyndi Lauper 76. Grace Jones 77. Destiny's Child 78. D'Arcy Wretsky 79. Annie Lennox 80. Laurie Anderson 81. Sandy Denny 82. Suzi Quatro 83. Spice Girls 84. Alicia Keys 85. Ronnie Spector 86. Neneh Cherry 87. The Corrs 88. Maureen Tucker 89. kd lang 90. The Slits 91. Girlschool 92. Aaliyah 93. Laura Nyro 94. Etta James 95. Karen Carpenter 96. Alison Moyet 97. Lucinda Williams 98. Salt-N-Pepa 99. The Go-Gos 100. Sister Bliss ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:07:36 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Re: 100 Greatest Women of Music sjc/njc Billy wrote: > There were several names that > stumped me. The other key detail is that Q is a British publication, so there are a number of names that would be unfamiliar to stateside JMDLers (not to mention Britons over 30 y.o.! :-) ). - --Michael NP: Kurt Elling, "I'll Get Along without You/Blame it on My Youth" on NPR--you guys are right, he's a tremendous vocalist! Love the arrangement, too. To think I've been sleeping on him despite many friends' recommendations--he's a hometown (Chicago) boy ferchrissakes! ===== ____________________________________________________ "I'm just a little bit heiress, a little bit Irish, A little bit Tower of Pisa whenever I see ya, So please be kind if I'm a mess." - --Rufus Wainwright, "Cigarettes and Chocolate Milk" Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:22:54 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Re: Salvation Army Bans Gays [long and njc] Kakki wrote: > There should be more of a movement > to amend the existing > Federal law to get in line with the states which > have prohibited this > discrimination. There has been significant work done on the Employment Non-Discrimination Act for many, many years, with some legislative successes in the Senate. Remember that at least one Congressional chamber has been in Republican hands for 7 years now, and for most of that time the national Republican Party has been under enough influence from the religious right that their response to gay civil rights has ranged from lukewarm to outright hostile. And it takes both houses and the President to pass a law. Also to Kakki's points, there was a HUGE flap regarding the Salvation Army's exemption from non-discrimination regulations tied to federal monies earlier this year, when an internal White House money promising such an exemption to the Salvation Army in return for the SA's support of legislation important to the White House. (Can someone fill in the blank on what this legislation aimed to do--my memory fails me right now. I also don't remember how it was resolved. Sheesh.) Another little wrinkle: the SA's western division made moves to introduce benefits for same-sex domestic partners of its employees a couple of months ago, and the hand of the national organization quickly smacked them down. As a dedicated urban hipster, it kills me not to rifle through Salvation Army racks for faaaabulous threads, but they have some cleaning up to do before they get any more of my money. And, Americans, write your Reps./Sens. urging them to sponsor ENDA immediately. A breakthrough on this legislation is very possible in the next couple of years, but our leaders have to know that support for it extends to Americans from all regions of all sexual orientations and religions. What better way to support the democracy we're now so proud of post-9/11? - --Michael NP: Rufus Wainwright, _Poses_ ===== ____________________________________________________ "I'm just a little bit heiress, a little bit Irish, A little bit Tower of Pisa whenever I see ya, So please be kind if I'm a mess." - --Rufus Wainwright, "Cigarettes and Chocolate Milk" Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:27:57 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: almost famous njc i always thought it was Irish for fuck. they said it a lot on Father Ted. Mark or Travis wrote: > > p.s. back in those days we actually said fecking when we meant the > other. > > it was socially acceptable. later > > I never did and don't recall ever hearing the fecking word until > recently. > > Mark E. - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:37:57 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Re: "covering" (NJC) Fred asked: > is > Madonna as good a songwriter as Joni Mitchell? No way. > Does > her body of work > demonstrate the same level of craft and inspiration > in the manipulation of > the materials? Well, that depends on what you define as "work" and "materials." I define her "body of work" very broadly, beyond the recorded notes on her albums. And on that basis, I would say "yes," it does demonstrate the same *level* of craft and inspiration--though a very different type. A little more seriously, I think Fred's point is well-taken. The line between personal taste and "objective" critical assessment is a good deal fuzzier than his post might seem to paint it, but nonetheless I think it is useful because the latter forces/allows us to approach music/art in general and specific artists in particular from different vantage points. And the end result is often a change in taste itself--broadening to include formerly distasteful work, and a deeper understanding of the tastes we already have. Take the recent good-natured banter among myself, Bob, Billy, and Bree over PJ. I certainly could talk about what PJ's music means to me personally--in a taste sense--but taking a step back to try to place her gifts in a critical context against those of Joni, Dylan, and the like might just help open a door for Bob and Bree to enjoy her more than they did previously. And if it doesn't? No harm done--in the process of arguing my own understanding of my love for all of these artists has certainly deepened, and I'm sure this is true for others, too. I'm certainly a little too into the horse race/ranking thing than I should be, but it's less of a contest than a thinking mechanism for me. - --Michael NP: Mary J. Blige, _No More Drama_ If Madonna's music means more to you > (not *you,* but "you") > personally than Joni's, if she grooves you more, > speaks more directly to your > inner life, then fine ... no one can argue. But if > everyone's work is equally > valid, if there is no attempt at objective > examination, then what's > excellence? > > -Fred ===== ____________________________________________________ "I'm just a little bit heiress, a little bit Irish, A little bit Tower of Pisa whenever I see ya, So please be kind if I'm a mess." - --Rufus Wainwright, "Cigarettes and Chocolate Milk" Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:38:27 -0500 From: slarty Subject: Re: Rolling Stone George Harrison Tribute njc Here's a letter that was posted to the rec.music.beatles.moderated news group. From: "Lewis Lustman" Organization: - Newsgroups: rec.music.beatles.moderated,rec.music.beatles Followup-To: rec.music.beatles.moderated I had posted this some years ago and, thankfully, Saki helped locate it. I had the great fortune to meet George and speak with him. He was as warm, gentle and funny as his close friends have stated over the past couple of days. I miss him very much. I hope this perhaps helps you through the loss we share. In the mid-80s, I had to fly from LA to Boston on business. I got to the airport a little early and went to the American Airlines Admiral's Club to kill some time. When I entered, I saw a guy I knew who worked there and he said, "Guess who's here today? George Harrison!" So he points to this longhaired guy with really big sunglasses sitting in a remote corner of the Club. I knew what I had to do. In spite of it being 7:30AM, I went to the bar and had a glass of wine. As I finished, the woman who was shepherding George left, leaving him alone. Good timing - the wine was starting to take effect on my empty stomach. I summoned up as much nerve as I could and, keeping my arms at my sides in as non-threatening a manner as I could muster, walked up to George and said, "I started playing guitar 20 years ago because of you and I just wanted to thank you for introducing me to something that's given me a lot of enjoyment for a long time." Instead of brushing me off, he looks up and asks, "Do you still play?" So I said "Yeah, more to piss off the neighbors than anything else." He grinned and invited me to sit down. I sit next to him. He's looking at me and I'm looking at him, and 20 years of questions as to who played this and what guitar was used on that just evaporated. And we're sitting there staring at each other. I noticed he was wearing these goofy tennis shoes, like the ones you see him wearing in "Magical Mystery Tour." Finally I said, "Do you still have the Rickenbacker 12-string you used in "Hard Day's Night?" and he emphatically said, "Oh yeah!" like "I'd have to be crazy not to keep it." We talked about The Guitar for a while and I asked him if that was the first one they made. He said it was the second, that some American woman had the first (which I later read about in one of the books on Rics). The Beatles albums were being released on CDs at that time and I think "Revolver" was the latest. I asked him about one of the songs I always loved (although never a hit) that I heard on the way to the airport, "And Your bird Can Sing." He said he had just gotten the CD himself and said, "Oh yeah, I just was listening to that. It was a good song." I asked him how he played the lead, since I could never figure it out and he said, "Oh Paul played one of leads and I played the other." My cordial response was "I've been trying to figure that lead out for two decades and now you tell me it took *two* of you to do it!" We both laughed. Just remembered - when I asked about the 360/12, he also said, "A friend of mine - do you know Tom Petty? - (I nodded my head - I had actually heard of him) has one just like it." Anyway, we talked about 20 more minutes about guitars and music, and then a woman came to escort him to his flight. He got up, we shook hands (very gentle handshake, like you see him give Ed Sullivan), he smiled that famous toothy smile and said "Take care, nice talking with you," and left. I felt proud not to have asked for my idol's autograph. Just two musicians chatting about guitars and music. I hope this story brought you a smile. It does for me every time I think of talking with George Harrison, ex-Fab, guitarist, singer, songwriter, and nice man who took time to treat a fan like a friend, all those years ago. RoseMJoy@aol.com wrote: > there are some good articles here: > George Harrison Tribute: 1943-2001 > > "The first time I met George Harrison, he appeared behind me as if he were a > ghost . . ." > > http://www.rollingstone.com/features/featuregen.asp?afl=mail1&pid=184 > > > > Inside the Beatles Hit Factory > Inside the Hit Factory: The Stories Behind the Making of 27 Number One Songs > http://www.rollingstone.com/features/beatles/default.asp?afl=mail1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:50:23 -0800 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: almost famous njc hi mark, "trust me" . later gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark or Travis" To: "gene mock" ; "Kate Bennett" Cc: "joni" Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 6:45 AM Subject: Re: almost famous njc > > p.s. back in those days we actually said fecking when we meant the > other. > > it was socially acceptable. later > > I never did and don't recall ever hearing the fecking word until > recently. > > Mark E. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:25:11 -0600 From: "Donna J. Binkley" Subject: RE: lyric writing Anne & Kakki, I too think this is a great idea! I will take a class on lyric writing if it is offered. Another class i'll be interested in will be in tunings - that was mentioned in our form so hopefully someone will host it. I'm curious, who else has ideas for workshops at 2002 Jonifest? Donna - -----Original Message----- From: les@jmdl.com [mailto:les@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Kakki Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 3:28 PM To: anne@sandstrom.com; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: lyric writing Anne, I think this is a fantastic idea! With a number of the group who are songwriters and have participated in workshops, perhaps a group song or two could also be worked up. (Although now I am having visions of the crack parody composers sharpening up their pencils, too ;-) But it might be really cool to collectively create a few new tunes at the Fest. Kakki > Anyway, so I'm going to be at Northeast JoniFest 2002 and I've indicated in the form that I'd like to conduct a workshop >on lyric writing. This is really preliminary (obviously, nothing will be decided about what workshops will happen, who will >conduct them, etc... for a while.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:49:22 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: "covering" (NJC) In a message dated 12/6/01 4:31:52 AM, colin@tantra-apso.com writes: >i see your point clearly. it is like looking at a knitted garment. I may >not like it, but wouls still be able to see if it had been made well. Or conversely, >I might like a garment for its colour/design or yarn but dismiss it if it >has been badly made(like most of the stuff you can buy in shops!) Exactly. It only becomes a problem when, if one doesn't like it, one automatically infers that it therefore is not good. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:32:18 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: scrambled eggs njc ok ok, eggs on my face now.. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:32:15 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Joni in Seventeen well hooray! maybe the alleged singer/songwriter trend among teens is not about jewel at all ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 17:48:13 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: "covering" (NJC) > Exactly. It only becomes a problem when, if one doesn't like it, one > automatically infers that it therefore is not good. yes which I hear too often! I really dislike Opera, for example, but wouldn't say it was crap! Like wise with Dylan or whpever. Mind you, I also couldn't tell anyway if somehting was well done or not. I can tell the difference between bad playing and good playing but only if the bad player is truly hopeless! Whereas John will say of an Oepra singetr that sounds like theyc an sing to me, 'he or she can't sing-their tech is awful' or something like that. So when it comes to music I either like or dislike and leave thos judgements out of it. > > > -Fred - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:01:01 -0800 From: " Russell Bowden" Subject: Joni Super Trivia Question Gang, ITHBDB,IA. (If this has been discussed before, I apologize.) Does anyone know who, mind you, who were the members of the Lookout Mountain backup singers on 'The Circle Game'? Dan Fogelberg? Cass Elliott? C,S,N or Y? Needing to know so badly, Russ in rainy San Francisco. NPIMH: All I Want - -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:41:31 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Who is Betsy...? >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:18:56 -0000 >From: > > > > In a message dated 12/5/01 4:53:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > > SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: > > > > > >> I'm not sure, Nuriel...I'm copying JMDL'er Tony King on your question > > >> because Betsy is a friend of his. When you need an answer, go to the > > >> source, right? :~) > > >> > >Betsy was and is an old friend of Joni's. She was once married to Peter Asher >and I saw her only last week when I was in L.A.......Meanwhile Joni has been >recording her album here in London just up the road from where I live. It >includes "Hejira" and "The Last Time I saw Richard"....Thank goodness. > >Tony King ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 12:32:14 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: All this talk about songwriting now... NJC To Marian, and all... Sometimes, (despite the fact that alot of my friends have called me 'prolific'), I have lyric 'dry spells' that have lasted up to 2 years, even though some music may flow from time to time. No inspiration, perhaps? (lol) Recently, some very personal experiences have driven me- and I mean that literally- to write. I've written poems and lyrics in the last month, even finished a song called "The Distance of Your Heart." (From meeting someone in Toronto in October.) In the last few years my songs have been extremely autobiographical. Good or bad, that's my inspiration. Also taking a long hard look at the gay scene - looking at self, and society and how we weave in and out of the real world or stay within our own. I'm not a flag waver or a militant, but maybe it's just time that instead of sitting on the sideline, I need to be more visible. I couldn't write when I compared myself to say, ah, Joni, or Paul Simon (who I was listening to back then) but when she said 'you gotta write for yourself', that was the best advice that I had ever heard. My sister gave me this magazine with Joni interview when I was in high school, and it had this quote. I wrote my first song at 17. Joni also made mention of something like: "Well you never know when you'll be on the tail of a good song." When I got in touch with my emotions I got in touch with the author in me. Anne's lyrics are emotionally powerful, and so are Kate's. I think it's all there, Marian. I bet when you let go, your first song's gonna be phenomenal... Gone are half the leaves on just one side Of a tree displaying red and gold But only to my pen I will confide That half my heart I gave you to hold Why can't I let go of this dread That I've slipped and fallen As tears escape, I turn my head Could it be my heart that yours is calling? Oh, I'll catch you if your falling... What is the Distance of Your Heart Is it just the many miles that's tearing us apart? For this voyage I have no chart Longing sighs Cloud up the skies Tears in your eyes With passion and such grace... How I long to see your face... c 2001, Steve Polifka Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 13:14:37 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Some Guitar Advice (NJC) Great story! Though I'm sure any make of guitar would be free to Paul for the asking, so my point about him choosing the Ovation still stands. And glad it tripped this memory. RR Michael Paz wrote: > cause they are FREE to them. I remember a story about McCartney coming into > a store I worked at called Sound City. When he was recording Venus and Mars > at my friend Allen Toussaint's studio he went to the store to pick out an > > > They sound a bit different than wooden guitars. > > Then again, John McLaughlin, Paul McCartney, Nancy Wilson and > > others seem to like them! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:11:30 EST From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: John Kelly have a website? (njc) Hi, gang, I know at least one of you knows John Kelly (the Joni "impersonater" -- there's got to be a batter word for what he does -- an "hommage-eur"?) personally -- does he have a web page? Is he going to bring the new Joni Show (Shiny Hot Nights, no?) to San Francisco? hoping, walt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 16:20:50 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: John Kelly have a website? (njc) This was the only thing I could find: http://www.queenmother.tv/nycgirl/john/john.html Bob NP: Cheap Trick, "The Way of the World" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 16:21:04 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: John Kelly have a website? (njc) This was the only thing I could find: http://www.queenmother.tv/nycgirl/john/john.html Bob NP: Cheap Trick, "The Way of the World" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 21:47:22 +0000 From: pyramus@lineone.net Subject: re:Salvation Army Bans Gays [njc] What jerks. I work near the London H.Q. of the Salvation Army here in the U.K. I shall moon through the window at them tomorrow. :) ~Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 21:58:39 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Salvation Army Bans Gays [njc] Denmark Hill? Maudesley(lived there a while) Kings College?(lived there too). pyramus@lineone.net wrote: > What jerks. > > I work near the London H.Q. of the Salvation Army here in the U.K. I shall moon through the window at them tomorrow. :) > > ~Kevin - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 13:58:56 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: RE: Q's greatest female singers From: "Wally Kairuz" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:40:16 -0300 where is karen? not within the top ten? i am listening to a new japanese release with very rare previously unreleased material and i am surprised that karen's brother, that un.speakable slave driver, could have prevailed over karen in that way. you should hear karen doing standards. the quality of her voice is so rich, so fresh yet so somber. someday she'll be appreciated for what she was: one of the best singers ever. karen, why didn't you live, baby, you'd be chubby, all right, and in the year 2001 that would have been such a non-issue. you'd be alive and singing the standards and i would have married you. karen karen karen... wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:24:51 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: no no no no please no more njc oh how i absolutely loathe, abhor, abominate, detest, execrate and ***HATE*** the word ''feck''!!!!! please, label ''feck content'' before you post. wallyK, positively gnashing my teeth. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 18:40:11 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: "covering" (NJC) In a message dated 12/6/01 8:06:47 AM, M.Russell@iaea.org writes: >This is the whole scientific approach, isn't it? > ... I think it is extremely difficult to be totally >objective about anything Not so scientific, because, as you say and as I said, humans cannot be completely objective. But what I'm talking about are standards of excellence. Why, for instance, almost 200 years after his death, do most of us still agree that Beethoven was a great composer? It can't only be because a lot of people simply dig his music ... there are nuts and bolts reasons why his music has so much depth and weight, and those reasons can be examined and explicated by those who speak and/or understand the language, and can also be compared to the choices other composers have made. In the same sense, there are specific reasons why Joni's music is so great ... spend a few hours with me at a piano and I can show you exactly why. >But I think it's wrong before you even get to the conclusion. What is >wrong, in my view, is comparing them at all. It's like apples and oranges. Comparing Kenny G and Wayne Shorter is not at all like comparing apples and oranges, it's more like comparing Andre "Cold Duck" to vintage Veuve Cliquot. Or, more to the point, like comparing an old, mealy, dry, tasteless oranges to the freshest, sweetest (yet slightly tart), juiciest (yet crisp) apples. Ask yourself this: why does Joni call Wayne Shorter and not Kenny G? I can assure you, it's not only because Wayne floats her boat and Kenny doesn't ... she absolutely makes a crucial, perhaps to some even ruthless, comparison based on her intuitive and experiential (if not formally educated) knowledge of excellence in music. >Maybe to someone, KennyG's saxophone >playing transports them to another level of consciousness where they feel >at one with the universe I'm certain that I said exactly this in so many words. If someone prefers Cold Duck to vintage Veuve Cliquot, that's their taste (and, as I said, their problem ... hey, I never said I wasn't a snob). - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 18:13:42 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: almost famous njc > hi mark, "trust me" . later gene No if you're over 30. Mark E. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:28:42 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: what a bunch, njc At the risk of wearing out my "welcome", mack, let me add that, in life, you have to pick your fights. You said that you are there to care for your parents. You can agree to take on bigotry later, in a more suitable venue. Certianly in a big city, you might make a difference for the next gay person. But in central Texas, they'd eat you alive and never think twice. I think in historical terms, bigotry goes all the way back in central Texas. You are there for your parents, not for political reform. Bedroom politics don't belong in the Personnel Office, right? And finally, consider that this threat of checking police records might blow over. If they threaten to do background checks, they may scare off "undesirables", free. Do you want to play into that? It may have been a wacky idea and they may find out that they don't have a *BUDGET* for it! Maybe they thought that the police would process dozens of requests for them, free. Don't be the one guy in 100 who asks too many questions about the background checks, like the pot smoker who asks 15 questions about the *conditions* of the urine test! Look 'em right in the eye and lie convincingly. Pick your fights; don't let them pick you. Your priorities: parents and patients. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:14:37 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Joni in Seventeen my 16 year old really 'gets' Joni ... could it be because she has had tonnes of opportunity to get to know her music well??? ;-) Mags, grateful for thoughts & prayers and kind words np: 17 again Eurythmics - --- Kate Bennett wrote: > well hooray! maybe the alleged singer/songwriter trend among teens is > not > about jewel at all > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > sponsored by Polysonics > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > ******************************************** ===== I've got you to see me through, looking out for what I do Spreading sunshine from the skies, placing rainbows in my eyes Got you watching out for me, making sense of what I see When my world is wearing blue, I've got you to see me through . - ---by Eleanor McEvoy on her album Yola (2001) . Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:29:02 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Salvation Army Bans Gays [long and njc] Michael wrote: > There has been significant work done on the Employment > Non-Discrimination Act for many, many years, with some > legislative successes in the Senate. Remember that at > least one Congressional chamber has been in Republican > hands for 7 years now, and for most of that time the > national Republican Party has been under enough > influence from the religious right that their response > to gay civil rights has ranged from lukewarm to > outright hostile. And it takes both houses and the > President to pass a law. Do you know which Republicans have held this up, which states are they from and what has been their objection? Will this be and amendment to the existing Federal law or a separate enactment? The original sponsor of the bill is Christopher Shays, a Republican from Connecticut, and there are a number of other Republican co-sponsors to the bill. > Also to Kakki's points, there was a HUGE flap > regarding the Salvation Army's exemption from > non-discrimination regulations tied to federal monies > earlier this year, when an internal White House money > promising such an exemption to the Salvation Army in > return for the SA's support of legislation important > to the White House. (Can someone fill in the blank on > what this legislation aimed to do--my memory fails me > right now. I also don't remember how it was resolved. > Sheesh.) I did some searches and all the talk of this seems to be coming from the SA. The White House spokepersons denied th SA'a characterizations in the Washington Post. The Washington Post also indicated that prior laws have given religious organizations exemptions from some state and Federal discrimination laws, as does the ENDA that you cite above. > Another little wrinkle: the SA's western division made > moves to introduce benefits for same-sex domestic > partners of its employees a couple of months ago, and > the hand of the national organization quickly smacked > them down. What was reported is that the national organization originally did agree with the western division on this, but then received a barrage of protests from many of their contributors and reneged. In doing so, they have given up around $30 million in state monies from California and will no doubt be giving up several more millions in funding from other states and cities who prohibit this discrimination. Bottom line for me is that this has left a bad taste in my mouth on many levels and I really am feeling more opposed than ever to providing government funding to religious organizations. > And, Americans, write your Reps./Sens. urging them to > sponsor ENDA immediately. A breakthrough on this > legislation is very possible in the next couple of > years, but our leaders have to know that support for > it extends to Americans from all regions of all sexual > orientations and religions. What better way to > support the democracy we're now so proud of post-9/11? I agree - we need the law to be uniform across the board. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #578 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?