From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #558 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, November 21 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 558 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- november 20!!!!!!! njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Today in Joni History: November 20 [les@jmdl.com] millworker (njc) ["Ron Greer" ] NJC Re: (Wo)man of Heart and Mind... (less and less jc -- so njc) [SCJoni] Re: Joni's painting & technical terms [TerryM2222@aol.com] cover of Millworker (njc) [anne@sandstrom.com] "Millworker" (NJC) ["c Karma" ] Re: Jennifer Warnes NJC [Fauchja@aol.com] Re: The Return of Singer/Songwriters NJC [Michael Yarbrough ] Dingo joke NJC [Steve Polifka ] Re: Joni's painting & technical terms [dsk ] At very long last -- the SFBayArea jdmlers get-together on 11/7 (njc) ["K] Re: Natalie njc [Alison E ] Re: Natalie njc [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: Natalie njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: The Return of Singer/Songwriters NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: Joni's painting/Group of Seven link ["Kakki" ] Chelsea Morning [colin ] Re: A Case [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: Speaking Of Afghanistan...(njc) [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: 44 seconds of prime Joni cover free! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] a past topic. njc ["mack watson-bush" ] JT-Millworker njc ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Man of Heart & Mind :-) [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: Re: The Return of Singer/Songwriters NJC [] Re: Joni's painting & Group of Seven [TerryM2222@aol.com] NJC Boz Scaggs [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni's painting & Group of Seven ["Kakki" ] Painting techniques of the musically gifted. [johnirving Subject: november 20!!!!!!! njc hey! yes you! pssst!!!!! hey, joe farrell! H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! maybe the last scorpio on the list???? the BIRtHDaY FaIRy loves you all!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 03:13:10 -0500 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in Joni History: November 20 On November 20 in Joni Mitchell History: 1975: Joni performs with the Rolling Thunder Revue at the Harvard Square Theater in Cambridge, Mass., singing 'Edith and The Kingpin' and 'Don't Interrupt The Sorrow'. 1976: Joni, with John Sebastian, Country Joe McDonald and Fred Neil, takes part in "California Celebrates The Whales Day" at the Memorial Auditorium in Sacramento, California. From Wally's bio page: Joni and Jaco finally performed together in Sacramento at a Whales benefit hosted by then Governor Jerry Brown. She performed a wonderful set with Bobbye Hall on congas joining Jaco on bass. Joni's solo acoustic encore of "Song For Sharon" was a stunning triumph, and she returned later to sing back-up during Fred Neil's performance of his song, "The Dolphins." - ------------------------ Search the "Today" database: http://www.jmdl.com/today ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 13:32:20 +0200 From: "Ron Greer" Subject: millworker (njc) hi >>Walt wrote >>brought to mind James Taylor's "Millworker" (the lyrics are from the point of >>view of an exhausted and hopeless woman who works in a mill), which I first >>heard when he performed it on Saturday Night Live sometime back in the late >>'70's or early '80's. Brought tears to my eyes then and ever since. I think >>it's on the Flag album. Bette Midler did a version of it. Know of it (silly >>question, knowing Bob :-)? i dont know jt's version, or bettes. i do know emmylou harris's version off "portraits" & it is absolutely superb. the image of the person working in the mill is just so strong & so bleak & hopeless, that i dont like listening because its just so overpoweringly depressive. ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 08:13:10 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: (Wo)man of Heart and Mind... (less and less jc -- so njc) <> Walt, you are correct...Millworker was on 'Flag' and written for Studs Terkel's play 'Working'...Flag has its faults to be sure, but Millworker is certainly not one of them. I remember seeing Eileen Brennan do a great version on the PBS presentation of Working, and I also remember Ashara in a memorable performance of the song at Fest '99. Another great one from that Flag album: "Sleep Come Free Me"...brilliant. Bob NP: Joni, "Song For Sharon", Wantaugh NY 7/24/83 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 08:59:09 EST From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's painting & technical terms I can't help myself when discussions turn to Joni's art. I have to open my big mouth. Granted, I've never seen any of her art in person, so feel free to take what I have to say with a grain of salt. I've never felt that Joni's work was anything beyond good illustration. I've not been impressed with any sort of individualism, any real personal style. So much of her influences show up blatantly on canvas. I'm guessing that the "flatness" means that she doesn't modify colors enough to make things seem more 3 dimensional. I don't see anything wrong with her relying on colors for expression and content, though. In subtler ways, that's what the color field painters did- people like Rothko. In bolder ways- Pollock. Once it was pointed out to me (by Kakki?) that she was also influenced by the Canadian plains artists, things came together for me. I see her work now as mainly naive, not in a negative sense, but as a style known for those who have not had formal training and whose use of perspective, line, color and composition are used intuitively, much like a child. Still, if this creative outlet is what gives her the most pleasure, then that's fine with me. She has a good eye, good drawing techniques; she just needs to work on developing her own style, IMHO. Terry, ready for the flames- I think << I'm interested in art history, but am woefully ignorant of art techniques (which I suppose, is like being interested in physics but not knowing math), so I was both fascinated by what John Irving wrote: <> I may have the wrong term, but I had kind of concluded that Joni's style, while reeling from complete abstractiop, through impressionism, to more-or-less realism, was centered on the fauvist idea of the use of color - -- just as John said (in different words, of course). As for my ignorance, I don't know what "value" means, what "form painting" is, nor what "flatness" refers to -- does it have to do with perspective, or it more involved with the manner in which she paints? I'm going now to look it up in my art referneces, but i thought I'd ask here also in case anyone else was puzzled, intrigued, etc. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 2001 07:14:53 -0800 From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: cover of Millworker (njc) Walt mentioned James Taylor's Millworker. Diane Zeigler does a fantastic cover of this song on her album "Sting of the Honeybee." This album may be hard to come by, but is among my top ten albums of all time. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 15:21:25 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: "Millworker" (NJC) I believe that "Millworker" was written by Taylor for a Broadway musical adapted from Studs Terkel's "Working" back in the 70s. Yes, Midler did cover it beautifully on her underrated "Thighs and Whispers." That disco infused album featured the salacious "My Knight in Black Leather" and "Married Men." No wonder then, that "Millworker" stood out. If you can find/download it, check out "Rain" for a beautiful vocal and arrangement. CC _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:07:31 EST From: Fauchja@aol.com Subject: Re: Jennifer Warnes NJC Saw Arlo Guthrie last night at the Kennedy Center with a symphony orchestra. Jennifer covered a tune of his, Patriot's Dream, that she had originally sung with him on his recording. He did it with the symphony. I liked the original, the one with the sympnony was very nice, and then picked up her CD to see what she had done with it. WOW! I haven't listened to the whole CD yet, but Patriot's Dream is WONDERFUL!!!!!! Arlo with a symphony! Hmmm. Remind you of anyone else? Fauchja ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 08:17:50 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Re: The Return of Singer/Songwriters NJC - --- Victor Johnson wrote: > I simply do not like much of > the modern hip/hop/r&b > music that seems to be very popular, for the most > part because of the > repetitive electronic sounding beat that drives me > mad. Of the artists I mentioned, only one (Mary J. Blige) works predominantly with beats such as you describe. Lauryn Hill works as much with more organic and traditional soul sounds as with electronic hip-hop, and Maxwell, D'Angelo, Erykah Badu, and Jill Scott almost exclusively work with organic and, yes, acoustic instrumentation. I was *not* attacking Kate or her motivation/point in posting the article. What I'm questioning is why this trend--i.e. this *change*--is only notable to marketers and certain segments of the public when it occurs in predominantly white music. The change/trend has been around in predominantly black music for quite a while. And most of the white public, including much (though *certainly* not all--hi Bob!) of this list is completely ignorant of it. What is more, this change has *not* been a zero-sum game; i.e., the sonic palette of black music has *expanded* to include organic sounds and artist-written songs while more electronic music continues to enjoy both creative and commercial success. (Of course, this expansion is itself a cycle, retrieving the greatness of '70s soul while continuing to push hip-hop forward.) This article, on the other hand, suggests that teens and Sam Goody staff--most of whom we must presume to be white--see a move coming *from* electronic pop music *to* guitar-based music. What is more deux, the article ties three not-necessarily related concepts (e.g. guitar rock, singer-songwriters, and authenticity) into one apparently seamless whole. I.e., guitar rock and singer-songwriter styles are in a certain sense one and the same, and these styles are inherently more authentic than whatever came before. This is bullshit on two accounts to my mind. In general usage the "singer-songwriter" term is called on to perform double-duty. While most often it refers to a specific genre descended most directly from folk, (though with other influences of course), it also retains the literal meaning that is its etymology--an artist who sings and writes songs. These two concepts and categories do not map onto each other perfectly, of course, and it is in this slippage that the crux of my argument lies. I am not talking about mere semantics here--that would be simple enough to resolve. Rather, I suggest that the word slippage both reflects and contributes to a slippage in the way people "order" music in their minds. (Just struck by what a felicitous triple pun order is here: order as organize, order as hierarchy, and order as request. I think all three meanings apply.) Anyway, the s-s term's double duty means that our kneejerk reaction is to assume that artists outside of that genre, narrowly defined, do not meet its literal definition. The ones who write their own songs are the singer-songwriters--of course! A similar assumption is made about rock artists, and here we see the twinning of these two genres. Many in the general public assume anyone outside of these genres have *no* hand in writing their own work (can I tell you how many times I've had to convince people that Madonna actually co-writes most of her work?). This is true even when there is stylistic common ground--as there is with the instrumentation of a Badu or Scott record and much rock 'n' roll. But who gives a shit, right? It matters because of the second assumption--about authenticity. The assumption that the inner self is authenticity's sole location catalyzes assumptions about the romantic genius of the solo troubador to give the s-s genre something of a monopoly on integrity and "realness." Those who fall outside the genre in our minds also fall somewhat outside these values in our minds. In my view authenticity takes many forms--including the sheer bliss of a disco tune or the tragic horror of an Eminem suicide ballad. (Actually, in my view authenticity is too highly rated as an artistic virtue, and sometimes the most authentic thing one can do is to foreground inauthenticity. This explains the lion's share of my love for Madonna.) Anyway deux, and in my opinion, it is this complicated implicit mental order that allows us to see a return to the s-s/rock *genre(s)* as an inherently good thing--even when artists have been filling the literal definition of s-s and the aesthetic values of authenticity for years, albeit in other genres. And yes, I think a certain implicit racism accompanies this mental order. No need to dredge up the intellectual/political/military history of colonial racism here, but I think it is no secret that the values of rationality and romantic interiority/self-examination have their roots in the Enlightenment and that, from this vantage point, the values of the world's sundry darker peoples have been somewhat inscrutable and devalued. While we all have "tastes," to be sure, those "tastes" are always deeply socially embedded and rest upon traditions of which we must be aware and whose values we should question at least occasionally. More simply and more to the point, we must remember that most racism is neither explicit nor conscious, and any belief or practice to the contrary is the surest way to nurture its continued growth within ourselves as people and as a people. Whew! - --Michael NP: Eminem, _The Marshall Mathers LP_ ===== ____________________________________________________________ "Greetings cards routinely tell us everybody deserves love. No. Everybody deserves clean water. Not everybody deserves love all the time." - --Zadie Smith, _White Teeth_ Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:18:11 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: "Millworker" (NJC) c Karma wrote: > I believe that "Millworker" was written by Taylor for a Broadway musical > adapted from Studs Terkel's "Working" back in the 70s. Yes, Midler did > cover it beautifully on her underrated "Thighs and Whispers." That disco > infused album featured the salacious "My Knight in Black Leather" and > "Married Men." No wonder then, that "Millworker" stood out. Bette's version is truly remarkable. I had the pleasure of singing this in Working about 18 years ago in a wonderful production of Working in Indianapolis. Studs Came down from Chicago to see it. It was a thrill to perform it in front of him. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 10:54:48 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Dingo joke NJC Speaking of dingos... I heard this at a birthday party this weekend and almost wet my britches... How do you bring up a baby in the desert? Kick a dingo in the ass.... (lol) Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 12:07:43 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Joni's painting & technical terms TerryM2222@aol.com wrote: > > I'm guessing that the "flatness" means that she doesn't modify colors enough > to make things seem more 3 dimensional. I don't see anything wrong with her > relying on colors for expression and content, though. Me either. My initial comment was NOT a criticism of that, merely a description, and I said it ONLY to point out that considering the way she paints (and presumably sees) it's unlikely she'd be doing anything three-dimensional, such as sculpture, which is what Bob M (I think) was wondering about. In subtler ways, that's > what the color field painters did- people like Rothko. In bolder ways- > Pollock. Yes, exactly. Happy Thanksgiving everyone, or an extra happy Thursday if this week's Thursday is just another day for you. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 09:06:47 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: At very long last -- the SFBayArea jdmlers get-together on 11/7 (njc) >>The third singer, Mitchelle, was, I gathered, better-known than the others, and I would swear I'd heard her name before. Anyone heard of her?<< Yes, Mitchelle is one of my fellow indiegrrls who i met recently when she came this way to play & stay over as a houseguest...maybe she is more well known because her debut cd was given a DIY review by Performing Songwriter magazine...this is a high honor as they only choose 12 DIY cds each month to review...(these days some pretty big names fall in to DIY category) Thanks for the jmdl nocal gathering post walt! Sorry to hear of your friend...all of your posts are always welcome here! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 09:27:51 -0800 (PST) From: Alison E Subject: Re: Natalie njc i was a HUGE 10000 maniacs fan, and yes, bob, i'll gladly take that vinyl "wishing chair" off your hands! it was a big part of the musical genre that i was very into--early REM, early maniacs, cocteau twins, innocence mission, etc. oh, the glorious 80s! "in my tribe" is still one of my favorite albums, the song writing (which i think was simply natalie's poetry and prose put to maniacs music) was meaningful, moving, emotional and interesting. it was her stories put to music. and i think she is a good writer. i was just listening to a bootleg of her and michael stipe singing in a bar back in '87, and her voice was clear, beautiful and free of the contrived and pretensious styling she relies on today to differentiate herself from the crowd. it all started going downhill when the whole cat stevens/peace train/salmon rushdie thing went down, and they denounced the song and said they'd never play it again. i don't think she's written anything interesting since tigerlily, though. and its getting to the point that her voice actually bugs me. which is sad, because when she's not purposefully fucking it up, its beautiful. my 2 cents. alison e. in slc. - --- Suze Cameron wrote: > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:22:15 > JRMCo1 wrote: > I don't consider her a singer/songwriter though, > 'cause as far as I know she doesn't play an > instrument, which is a prerequisite for membership > on that list of mine. > > Hey Julius! I am a Natalie fan too, and believe > that she plays the piano. > What first brought me to the Maniacs and Natalie was > an add for In My Tribe in Rolling Stone likening her > to Joni. That was all the push I needed. Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 09:55:33 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Re: Natalie njc - --- Alison E wrote: > i was a HUGE 10000 maniacs fan ... > i don't think she's written anything interesting > since tigerlily, though. This is much closer to how I feel about her, too. I once was a devoted 10KM fan, and I still love _Our Time in Eden_ and much of _In My Tribe_ and _Blind Man's Zoo_. It's what she's become that I can't abide. Something about her just strikes me as so sanctimonious. I know I know...pot meet kettle. :-) - --Michael NP: Mary Mary, "Shackles" Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 12:56:19 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Natalie njc <> You got it! And you may not know, Al, but Natalie plays a mean banjo as well! :~D Bob NP: Joni, "Raised on Robbery" Toronto 7/12/83 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 12:08:03 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: The Return of Singer/Songwriters NJC I think that taking the results of one poll that suggests that teens are interested in more singer-songwriter and guitar- driven music, and framing it as racism is a bit over the top, Michael. The music biz, and young consumers (especially white ones!) seem to be pretty color blind when it comes to music (dispite overtly racist propaganda from M&M). But I think in your over-zeal to prove your point, you may have missed the possibility that young people are longing for the SINGER part of "singer-songwriter". Sure Blige, Badu and others DO sing-and wonderfully-but the lions' share of Hip-Hop type stuff has been gutted of melody. Even Lauren Hill, with her beautiful voice, has opted in most of her material to do the rap thing. Rapping isn't singing, it's rythmic talking. Not that that's bad, just that they are two different things, and young people might be longing for what's missing in alot of today's music: Music! Running for cover, RR, who is not convinced that a turntable is an instrument. Michael Yarbrough wrote: > And yes, I think a certain implicit racism accompanies > this mental order. No need to dredge up the > intellectual/political/military history of colonial > racism here, but I think it is no secret that the ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 13:59:36 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni's painting & Group of Seven Hi Terry > Once it was pointed out to me (by Kakki?) >that she was also influenced by the Canadian >plains artists, things came together for me. I remember writing about it but think maybe Evian? brought it up first? Check out this link and the paintings shown from the Group of Seven - definitely looks like Joni's been either influenced by them or has the same affinity http:www.groupofsevenart.com/ > I see her work now as mainly naive, not in a >negative sense, but as a style known for those >who have not had formal training and whose >use of perspective, line, color >and composition are used intuitively, much like >a child. All this talk here has got me thinking and questioning. Joni attended art school and I wonder just how much she was taught in the way of technique. Did she resist formal training? Or did her teachers forsake technical criticism or instruction in favor of original style? As I wrote the other day, my painting teachers provided minimal or no technical instruction. I have no idea why they had this approach. I recall feel a little cheated in school by their lack of involvement in actual instruction of various techniques other than to give us ideas on new materials and wander the class muttering a comment or two here or there. I wonder if there was a kind of hands-off approach in art instruction that was in vogue in the 60s/early 70s. I know to some extent that some art teachers believed you either "had it" inherently or you didn't. It's something for me to ponder about in retrospect. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:02:31 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni's painting/Group of Seven link Think I goofed the link - it should be http://www.groupofsevenart.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:20:08 -0000 From: "Garret" Subject: re:44 seconds of prime Joni cover free! i listened to that 44 second clip that you recommended. sounds pretty cool Bob. I want to test your memory, you once (and this was a looooong time ago) put up a link to a site with a version of Dry Cleaner by a Swedish band. (i think you said that they were Swedish) and i downloaded it; this is a really kick ass version, imo, but i don't know who it is. any ideas? and i think that i'd add the version of River by Travis into your list of men singing River well. i really like this version. It's a very straghtforward cover of the song, Fran Healy's vocal even seems to mimic Joni's. of course, the piano is not near as powerful as Joni's! GARRET np: Diana Ross, Imagine >Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:39:41 EST >From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com >Subject: 44 seconds of prime Joni cover free! > >Stumbled upon this one today while looking for Joni covers: > >http://www.vocalogy.net/mp3s/drycleaner.mp3 > >It's a 44-second excerpt of Vocalogy's cover of "Dry Cleaner"...Manhattan >Transfer style. > >I'm on the case trying to get the entire thing... > >Bob > >NP: Leslie Ritter/Scott Petito, "Woodstock" (ooooooh it's nice!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:45:43 +0000 From: colin Subject: Chelsea Morning At ringcraft tonight(no not a satanic ritual) a man of about fifty had an Airdale biytch named Chelsea. After Clinton? No he said after an old song called Chelsea Morning! So we talked a little about Joni. He was unaawre she was still recording but he had her work up to and including C&S. - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:30:24 EST From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: A Case John wrote... Last Wednesday, Amsterdam, the Concertgebouw. Diana Krall in Concert. Sounds fabulous John. I've really grown to admire her music recently. And I loved her performance at the TNT Joni Mitchell tribute. As for Natalie Merchant, I certainly didn't mean to open such a can of worms when I mentioned to Mark that I could 'hardly stomach her.' To me, she ranks about even with Lisa Loeb and just below Stevie Nicks--which isn't all that horrible. I agree that we should go back to dissing Celine Dion and Jewel (not to mention Melissa Etheridge and the pretentiously spelled k.d. lang) who are much worse in my book. And as for Britney Spears...we won't even go there! ;~) I mean really, where are PJ Harvey, Sam Phillips, Penelope Houston, or even Maggie Estep (too funny)--among many other notables--on the charts? Billy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:46:34 EST From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Speaking Of Afghanistan...(njc) Jim L. wrote... ps, Thanks for the Laura Nyro thread. I bought her "Smile" yesterday, my first. (used LP, perfect shape, 8 US dollars. Gotta love it.) The record store in Louisville had zero Dolly Parton (though tons of "Alabama"), no Bobby Dylan (though plenty of picture sleeves of the Rolling Stones) and zero Joni Mitchell (though multiple copies of Doobie Brothers.) Jim, do you live in Louisville? Well, me too! Which record store did you hit? Surely not "Ear X-tacy"... I'm so glad to hear you bought your first Laura Nyro! I would have recommended one from her classic trilogy (i.e., "Eli & 13th...," "NYT'berry," or "Xmas & Beads..."), but "Smile" will do just fine. Cheers, Billy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:47:41 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: 44 seconds of prime Joni cover free! << and i downloaded it; this is a really kick ass version, imo, but i don't know who it is. any ideas? >> Yes indeed Garrett...the name of the band is Kjellerbandet, and that clip is still there, should be easily found with any search engine. Enjoy! Bob NP: The Beatles, "I Got A Woman" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 18:57:28 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: a past topic. njc This goes back to a topic that we had a short time ago. Rosalie tells me that in Nebraska their potato salad is not our here in texas. They don't use any mustard. It is not yellow at all. Also, they are very particular to make sure that the potatoes are in chunks. Here, it is usually mashed. I have never really cared for it because it tastes so much like potatoes. I prefer it with lots of onion an pickles to take away the potato- ish taste. She also told me about a day called Mayday where they give each other little gifts. She said it was quite the big thing in Lincoln, Nebraska. Never heard of it before. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:04:59 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: JT-Millworker njc I really liked this album. Not a big, big JT fan but like him. Had never bought one of his albums before that one, only the greatest hits. I bought that one because of his version of Up on the Roof that was put out as a single. I really dug that song. I know it has been done by others but I liked that version to the extreme. Unfortunately on the album that tune was a different version than the single that had been put out and lacked the punch of the single. (Wow, the t.v. is on and hasn't Alec Baldwin become rather unattractive?) The album cover was very nicely done except the titles of the tunes are really hard to read. Also really liked company man, B.S.U.R, Sleep Come Free Me, and, of course, millworker. Thinking about that album, I was living in Ft. Worth at the time, makes me think of Boz Scaggs, whom I was listening to heavily at the time. Now, I really dig Boz and haven't seen him mentioned here. He took me away to exactly where I wanted to be. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:40:22 EST From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Man of Heart & Mind :-) Mack wrote... Of all the great Joni tunes, I am always drawn back to this one. In my opinion, the best of the best. The more I listen to For the Roses, it slowly, yet surely, surpasses court and spark. I am lucky for I have yet to discover more Joni as do not have all of the albums yet. Keep listening to Hejira hoping to find it, what I keep reading is there, but have not yet done so. I have to agree with you (and Victor) that "For The Roses" is top notch all the way. I personally like it better than "Blue" (as brilliant as those songs are). It's got to be one of Joni's most complex and challenging records, with "Judgment..." just one knockout among many. I rate it at least equal to "Court And Spark." And I agree too, that it's much better than "Hejira" IMHO. Also, Gary wrote... Being such a fan of Laura Nyro and Joni, and having done many of their songs through the years, guess I just decided to leave well enough alone!!! I have an old recording I did of Laura's "Tom Cat Goodby" that I did back in the '70s and I didn't change a word. Gary & Walt (and, I think, Kakki), you're also Laura Nyro "Tom Cat Goodby" fans! This one miraculous song perfectly encapsulates the greatest aspects of her totally unique art form in just five minutes. I'd love to hear your cover, Gary--and I wish I had a CD recorder so I could burn you a copy of "New York Nights" (Nyro's best bootleg). In the meantime, if I find it anywhere I'll certainly let you know... And Walt, you wrote... I remember her singing Coyote, DJRD the song, Talk To Me and one other song from Hejira when I saw her in '76, whatever tour that was -- between Hissing and Hejira. I saw that tour as well, Walt. February '76--my second Joni concert. Your absolutely right. "Coyote" segued effortlessly into "Don Juan's..." without a break. Both were brand new. I also remember she debuted "Furry Sings The Blues" that night, and it was one of the evenings highlights. The arrangement was totally different from (and, incredible as it may seem, vastly superior to) the recorded version released that November on "Hejira." XXXOOO, Billy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:03:56 -0500 From: Subject: Re: Re: The Return of Singer/Songwriters NJC Randy Remote wrote: > I think that taking the results of one poll that suggests that teens are interested in more singer-songwriter and guitar- driven music, and framing it as racism is a bit over the top, Michael. The music biz, and young consumers (especially white ones!) seem to be pretty color blind when it comes to music (dispite overtly racist propaganda from M&M). Just as an example, Holley's 14 year old daughter listens to mostly black R&b and rap artists. She has grown up in a mostly white environment but chooses this music because it is what she likes. Victor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:39:58 EST From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's painting & Group of Seven Kakki, Interesting- I was in art school in the early 70s. The formal classes were taught...formally, and I felt I learned a lot. But once I got into the higher studio painting classes, we were left to our own devices. We could paint whatever we wanted. BUT, at the critiques- that's where we learned about the specifics. Not only classical things like composition, color, etc., but we had to defend/explain the reason for our paintings- what problems we were trying to figure out. WHY we were painting that particular piece and how it related to the previous pieces...and what we might do in our next. Great experience. Terry In a message dated 11/20/2001 4:57:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << I wonder if there was a kind of hands-off approach in art instruction that was in vogue in the 60s/early 70s. I know to some extent that some art teachers believed you either "had it" inherently or you didn't. It's something for me to ponder about in retrospect. >> www.addconsults.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:23:44 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Boz Scaggs << makes me think of Boz Scaggs, whom I was listening to heavily at the time. Now, I really dig Boz and haven't seen him mentioned here. He took me away to exactly where I wanted to be. >> Daggum, Mack...that is SO weird...I was surfing the all-music guide on the web today and just out of the blue picked three artists to read about...Sam Cooke, Elvin Bishop, and Boz Scaggs. Boz was a fixture on the San Francisco scene, but I didn't pick up on him until Slow Dancer. Lots of great songs on that record. Then it was "Silk Degrees", and we all know about that one. If I've heard it once I've heard it a bajillion times. Lido Shuffle, Georgia, Harbor Lights, What Can I Say, every song on that record was a hit. I remember road-tripping with my sister to Florida, and I had a tape with Deja Vu on one side & Silk Degrees on the other, and I ain't sure we ever changed that tape! I really dug his next one too, "Down Two, Then Left", then "Middle Man" which wasn't so hot in my book, so I let him slide. Interesting bit of trivia about Boz...made one of the biggest mistakes in soundtrack history. He was offered to put "Lowdown" on the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack, but opted for the Thank God It's Friday soundtrack instead. SNF went on to sell 27 mil, and Friday tanked. Anyway, thanks for mentioning Boz. Some great memories. Bob NP: Little Feat, "Day At The Dog Races" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:27:06 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni's painting & Group of Seven Terry wrote: > I was in art school in the early 70s. The formal classes were > taught...formally, and I felt I learned a lot. But once I got into the higher > studio painting classes, we were left to our own devices. We could paint > whatever we wanted. BUT, at the critiques- that's where we learned about the > specifics. Not only classical things like composition, color, etc., but we > had to defend/explain the reason for our paintings- what problems we were > trying to figure out. WHY we were painting that particular piece and how it > related to the previous pieces...and what we might do in our next. My classes were never very formal - maybe it was an "out west," post-hippie, more laid back thing at that time ;-) We were left to our own devices from the beginning but always did critiques. The teaching approach I experienced was more oriented toward concepts and creative problem-solving. My school was very good in that repsect - but VERY lite on technical aspects, which I did not like. They did present many technical aspects which applied to any media in the design classes, however, and required endless semesters of art history. I could have gone to a pure art school but wanted the broader university experience, so something was probably lost and something gained. Joni may have been too busy with her college concert performances in art school, and may have diverted her focus somewhat from her painting, too. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:43:29 -0600 From: johnirving Subject: Painting techniques of the musically gifted. Hi Walt, Thanks for the interest in Joni's paintings. I majored in painting and earned a master's degree. What I learned about painting then could fill a thimble. The same frustrations Joni had in art school was shared by so many of us. We were eager to learn, but sold short by a well intended movement. -So much for good intentions. Modern art was the death knell of art instruction. Thankfully, the tide is turning. I'm learning to paint. Joni's learning to paint. I just hope I don't have to learn to compose music. Please, Joni. Please. 3 more cd's on the level of Hejira is all I ask. Now is that too much? I think not. Somewhere in the 13th century, Artist nailed down the principles of painting form (the illusion of 3 dimensional mass and volume). The strongest way to convey volume is rendering the effects of light and shadow on forms. It's the value diffences of light reflected off forms that create the illusion. Drawing this was easy. Painting it another thing. What solved the problem was figuring out how to degrees of light and dark (in color) as one would drawing it in black and white. The solution artists arrived at was pre-mixing values of color. Egg tempera was the general method of painting back then. Egg yolk, water and powdered pigment equalled paint. The problem with this paint is it dries too fast to blend colors. The solution artists arrived at was pre-mixing values of color from light to dark. Having the spectrum of color value to work from, it was 'just' a matter of laying the right values of color next to each other. When oil painting was invented, the artist still applied the old technique of pre-mixing color values ahead of time. So in a sense, Rembrandt, Vermeer, Titian, Raphael all painted by numbers. Make a scale of light to dark in black and white, then mix colors of equal values from light to dark. Substitute the proper hues for the underpainting of proper values, and boom: form. The more accurate the color values, the more 'real' the illusion of form. -Beginning with the impressionists, the idea of preset mixes of color was replaced by 'open' palettes. Colors squished out of the tube and freely intermixed. The made for great "hue" painting. In time, the lesson of color value became more and more 'lost.' An in turn, form becomes more and more flat. With all the colors squeezed out and freely mixed, the average person would look at this pretty collection of hues and think that making painting was about getting the 'color' right, when they should be thinking about getting both the hue and value right. Joni is on the cusp of understanding this. If she's squinting, she's squinting to see value, not color. Color is gauged with eyes wide open. Value is better seen by squinting to eliminate some of the saturation of hue... make it appear greyer, so to speak. Grey scales held up to the object, and placed underneath the glass of the paint palette is the ultimate tool for form painting. -In comparison to the impressionists way, it can seem dry. It depends on what you want your painting to look like. Going for a Matisse look, open palette. But if you want the work to look like Vermeer, Sargent, or Norman Rockwell, it's time to think values. I think Joni is looking for a happy medium between the two. She wants the freedom, but craves the form as well. Part of her duality, I think. Sorry to all for the art lesson. John. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 01:34:55 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: sympathy for mick (njc) Mick Jagger Rocked by Poor Album Sales LONDON (Reuters) - Rolling Stones frontman Mick Jagger's new solo album sold just 954 copies on its first day on sale, according to British newspapers on Wednesday. Despite a massive publicity effort, the 58-year-old singer's third solo album ``Goddess In The Doorway'' was lying at number 85 in the British charts. On the same day, Robbie Williams' new album ``Swing While You're Winning,'' sold 73,000 copies. The Daily Mail quoted a music industry insider as saying: ''These results have staggered everyone. ``They are very, very disappointing considering the Jagger publicity machine has been absolutely wonderful.'' Jagger's spokesman Bernard Docherty said: ``I cannot possibly comment on the album sales. It is far too early to tell.'' ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #558 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?