From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #522 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, October 28 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 522 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Turbulent Indigo time signature [Howard ] Re: Brenda njc ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: The Road Less Travelled NJC ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: Turbulent Indigo time signature ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Reworked Joni Tribute Part 2 ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: NJC When Will They ever Learn - Pete Seeger version [Vince Lavieri ] I heard Joni music in a play! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] "Message to love-the isle of wight festival" [Relayer211@aol.com] Christmas CDs NJC [TimandMaryPowers@aol.com] shadows and light ... attention all canadians [Mags N Brei ] Re: Gentler Americans NJC ["Kakki" ] october 28!!!!!! njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:58:23 +0100 From: Howard Subject: Re: Turbulent Indigo time signature >Mark forwarded this question for his friend Melanie: > >>Has the joni list ever talked >>about the time signature(s) in the song Turbulent Indigo? What the >>heck is it? It shifts, or I'm imagining things. It seems like it floats >>between 4/4, sometimes 2/4, sometimes 3/4.... is it 4/4 with a 5/4 measure or two >>thrown in there every now and then to throw off our expectations? > >Walt wrote: > >I'm glad it's not just me who gets cunfused by some of her time signatures. >I finally decided in the case of this one (TI) that it was generally 3/4 with >an occasionally dropped beat (say down from 3/4 to 2/4), but only the >Jon'ster would know, I suppose. > It's an interesting question this one! Joni refers to the rhythm on TI and other similar songs (Cherokee Louise, Crazy Cries of Love) as her shuffle. Melanie was right - there seems to be a "3 feel" going on as well as a "4 feel". With these songs you can count a slow, steady count of 4 throughout the song *or* you can count in faster groups of three: *1* 2 3 *2* 2 3 *3* 2 3 *4* 2 3 (where the asterisks mark the slower count of four). On Crazy Cries of Love, listen to the rhythm of the words on the chorus where Joni sings "paper thin" (no paper thin walls). If you repeat this phrase over and over, you have the same groups of three as above: *pa*-per thin *pa*-per thin *pa*-per thin *pa*-per thin This is the basic groove for TI, Crazy Cries, Cherokee Louise and several others. Because you've got four groups of three beats, it's usually written down as a 12/8 time signature - meaning four beats, each made of of 3 eighth notes. It's the same 12/8 throughout, though Joni accents different beats to make it more varied. >The two that still stump *me* are "Stay in Touch" and "Love Puts On a New >Face" on TtT. Anyone have those figured out? > These have some strong off-beat rhythms on the guitar, and because there's no drum track, it seems as if the beat is being pushed and pulled all over the place! Stay In Touch is actually in 4/4 throughout, but it sounds more complicated than this just because of the strong off-beat strums on the guitar. Love Puts On A New face is also in 4/4 except for one bar of 2/4 in the introduction, but again, Joni's very rhythmic guitar playing makes it feel like the beats are coming in unusual places. Joni's always had a very strong sense of rhythm on the guitar, and I think this comes through more strongly on these tracks because they are quite sparse - no drums or percussion, just guitar, vocals, a bit of keyboard and not much else. I remember Joni quoted Wayne Shorter after he heard these tracks, and he said that people would never know "where one was" - i.e where the start of each bar was, and it's true that the simple 4/4 time that's used on many tracks is kind of "disguised". Even the person who transcribed the music for "Face Lift" for the TTT songbook was thrown off the scent, and wrote bars of 4/4, 5/4 and 3/4 - it's actually 4/4 all the way, it just doesn't sound like it! Howard ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 16:11:34 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc Kate wrote: > > Why do people believe that striking back is the only way to achieve justice? > I have never understood that reasoning. I didn't think that acheiving justice was something that was being strived for here. What will achieve justice? The Marshall Plan? How do we achieve justice with a pacifist response, or lack of response? > I think it is important to understand why some people feel this way. Some of > it may have roots in US foreign policy & some may not. But for our us to > ignore this, at this time, would be dangerous in my opinion. I think there > is lots we can do to gain favor in the world & this is the time to do so. > But first we must understand. While we are digesting it all, formulating a policy, understanding it all, I suppose the terrorists living in Afghanistan will be knitting sweaters and hoping that we come to our senses. They will be planning and acting upon more terrorism, more mayhem, and more murder. Sure, understanding the problem is very important but that doesn't mean we should not try to find and destroy those terrorists and the camps where they are producing their terror. > > >>>I agree that there has been a very great deal of anti-American sentiment > expressed on this site. It's gone beyond criticizing to demonizing. When > you paint the US as more evil than the Taliban and Bin Laden, which I think > a > number of these posts have done, you demonize us. I've seen too many emails > along the lines of "poor victim bin laden, protecting his culture against > the > evil US". That is demonizing us.<<< > > There has been criticism of US foreign policy, past & present. That is not > anti-American. That is subject to debate. My opposition to the Vietnam war has been very vocal. They were my anti-american sentiments. At least to the policy and the involvement. Doesn't mean I did not love my country, did not mean I did not believe in dissent and governmental debate. Anymore than what I believe is Anti-American sentiment here makes someone a poor american, in my opinion. Seems to me it is a different meaning to the word and I find everyone here a passionate American. > Hs anyone said the US was evil? I haven't read that anywhere here. I have found the same meaning in some posts I have read here, whether by factual statement or inferral. > I just read the Michael Kelly articles. His representation of people who are > not in support of this war are based on an extremist charactiture rather > than a real understanding of the issues. In my opinion, his writing was > more inflamatory than thoughtful. Extremist? That goes both ways. I found the links Mary provided very good and informed and agreed with much of what he had to say. As far as inflammatory, that also goes both ways and pacifists are often inflammatory too. Differences of opinions doesn't mean we cannot be friends and I found many of your statements very good Kate. Thanks for posting. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 16:17:56 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: Turbulent Indigo time signature Howard, I truly admire you folks who can talk in these terms. Complete gobbledy gook to me. Never could understand it. I am simply a dolt who knows that he likes what he hears. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 16:24:09 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Brenda njc Brenda, no apologies needed. Your posts are always so well thought out and so well written, and you are very articulate. I enjoy reading your thought provoking statements. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:30:19 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Brenda njc Thanks very much. B On 27 Oct 2001, at 16:24, Dolphie Bush wrote: > Brenda, no apologies needed. Your posts are always so well thought out and so > well written, and you are very articulate. I enjoy reading your thought > provoking statements. > > Mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:41:57 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: The Road Less Travelled NJC On 27 Oct 2001, at 13:03, Kate Bennett wrote: > Brenda, thanks for posting this article by a "retired US Foreign Service > officer, (who) served as US Ambassador at Large for Counterterrorism between > 1994 and 1997." > > Many people here have been saying these very things. Maybe his experience > will give more credence to these issues. > Your welcome! One of the reasons why I posted the article is to illuminate the fact that opposition to the bombing could be strategic. Some of the people here who have said these things have told us they are pacifist. However, you don't have to be pacifist to question the strategy of air raids. Brenda n.p.: Georgia v. Florida ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 16:50:17 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: fair? njc Furthermore Brenda, I don't think it is very fair that you get Boxer and Feinstein and I get these folks I have. Will trade you. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:02:36 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Turbulent Indigo time signature Thank you for the lesson. Do you teach music? Obviously your avocation too. I will print this out and study. Bree.... who can be off-beat >It's an interesting question this one! Joni refers to the rhythm on TI >and other similar songs (Cherokee Louise, Crazy Cries of Love) as her >shuffle. Melanie was right - there seems to be a "3 feel" going on as >well as a "4 feel". > >With these songs you can count a slow, steady count of 4 throughout the >song *or* you can count in faster groups of three: > >*1* 2 3 *2* 2 3 *3* 2 3 *4* 2 3 (where the asterisks mark the slower >count of four). > >On Crazy Cries of Love, listen to the rhythm of the words on the chorus >where Joni sings "paper thin" (no paper thin walls). If you repeat this >phrase over and over, you have the same groups of three as above: > >*pa*-per thin *pa*-per thin *pa*-per thin *pa*-per thin > >This is the basic groove for TI, Crazy Cries, Cherokee Louise and >several others. Because you've got four groups of three beats, it's >usually written down as a 12/8 time signature - meaning four beats, each >made of of 3 eighth notes. It's the same 12/8 throughout, though >Joni accents different beats to make it more varied. > > >The two that still stump *me* are "Stay in Touch" and "Love Puts On a New > >Face" on TtT. Anyone have those figured out? > > > >These have some strong off-beat rhythms on the guitar, and because >there's no drum track, it seems as if the beat is being pushed and >pulled all over the place! > >Stay In Touch is actually in 4/4 throughout, but it sounds more >complicated than this just because of the strong off-beat strums >on the guitar. > >Love Puts On A New face is also in 4/4 except for one bar of 2/4 >in the introduction, but again, Joni's very rhythmic guitar playing >makes it feel like the beats are coming in unusual places. > >Joni's always had a very strong sense of rhythm on the guitar, and I >think this comes through more strongly on these tracks because they >are quite sparse - no drums or percussion, just guitar, vocals, a >bit of keyboard and not much else. > >I remember Joni quoted Wayne Shorter after he heard these tracks, and he >said that people would never know "where one was" - i.e where the start >of each bar was, and it's true that the simple 4/4 time that's used on >many tracks is kind of "disguised". Even the person who transcribed the >music for "Face Lift" for the TTT songbook was thrown off the scent, and >wrote bars of 4/4, 5/4 and 3/4 - it's actually 4/4 all the way, it just >doesn't sound like it! > >Howard _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:04:16 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Was Pro-American...Marshall Plan and Those People - njc On 27 Oct 2001, at 15:41, Dolphie Bush wrote: > For something like the Marshall plan to work there would have to be a > willingness of the participants to be helped and that is not present. Those > people do not want our help. They want us out, period. ... > Those countries and the governments, people, etc. in > them would have to have the same kind of mindset that we do for that to work. > They don't. Infrastructure. To help them build an infrastructure would require > us to be even more involved in the region than we are. They would never allow > it. Medical assistance. The same thing. They would never allow it. Who exactly are "those people"? In Afghanistan at least, someone is willing to accept help or the Red Cross wouldn't be there. How about this: > Those people do not want our help. > Are "those people" Afghans or bin Laden, Al Qaeda & the Taliban? > They want us out, period. > Seems like this "they" is bin Laden & Al Qaeda. > Infrastructure. To help them build an infrastructure would require > us to be even more involved in the region than we are. They would never allow it. > Again seems like this "they" is the Taliban, bin Laden & Al Qaeda. Now if we succeed in overthrowing the Taliban, do you think the new government will refuse our help? I for one don't feel comfortable saying that I've seen anything, print or otherwise, that truly represents the voice of the majority of people in Afghanistan. Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:06:40 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: fair? njc On 27 Oct 2001, at 16:50, Dolphie Bush wrote: > Furthermore Brenda, I don't think it is very fair that you get Boxer and > Feinstein and I get these folks I have. Will trade you. You better check with Kate on that one. She may have stronger opposition than I do! B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:15:02 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Reworked Joni Tribute Part 2 On 27 Oct 2001, at 14:55, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Believe me, Brenda, there's NOT a good public database for this kind of > information. It takes hours & hours & hours of research to track it down, and > it's never complete! We can take pride in the fact that we JMDLer's have one of > the best covers (and articles) databases on the web for an artist of Joni's > magnitude. > I must agree completely. The only way to get this info quickly would be to gain access to the mechanical licensing/royalty databases of the administrators for each writer's publishing company or companies both past and present. Uuugh! B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:29:05 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: An apology (or two) - NJC "Brenda J. Walker" wrote: >1) I apologize for writing that it was a relief that it was Etta Jones >who passed away and not Etta James. I believe it was Fred who pointed out >that it may not have been a relief to her family and friends and I never thanked >him for calling me on that. No, you don't owe an apology for this ... I was just nit-picking, everyone knew you didn't really mean that it was a relief that Etta James had died. I was just being anal about word choice. (I'm sorry ... no, man, I'M sorry ... I love you, man ... no, man, I love YOU) >Sometimes I feel like I've become to reliant on spell checking. Based on this sentence alone, I'd agree. (insert emoticon here) - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:32:34 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: An apology (or two) - NJC In a message dated 10/27/01 5:29:05 PM, FredNow writes: >No, you don't owe an apology for this ... I was just nit-picking, everyone >knew you didn't really mean that it was a relief that Etta James had died Of course I meant to write "you didn't really mean that it was a relief that Etta JONES had died." Etta Jones, Etta James ... ain't no relief nowhere. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:43:58 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc Fred, I'm sorry that you thought I meant you specifically re: bin Laden. I did not. I quoted your post simply because I think peace has had enough of a chance. that's it. It is clear that I am never going to agree with the majority of you about this. I apologize if I have been insulting to anyone. That was not my intent. That may be hard to believe however. I think that I could back up the things I have said, but it is not a useful effort. No one's mind is going to be changed, and it's just going to lead to additional conflict. I also believe that freedom of speech means that everyone has the right to express their views. I actually spoke more because I wanted to let it be known that I agreed with Kakki than anything else. Perhaps Kakki is more tactful in the way she expresses herself. I felt like a fraud agreeing with her off-list, while publicly saying nothing and letting her take the heat as they say. I wish you all the best (whether I've made that clear or not. I'm sure the vote would be for "not". I do believe it is true however). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:46:55 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Reworked Joni Tribute Part 2 "Brenda J. Walker" wrote: >I have racked my brain trying to think of a single or even a collection >of resources which would yield the answer to this question without a very >time intensive effort. Please don't rack your brain too much, it hurts. There's no way to determine "most covered sole composer," more importantly, it doesn't matter. Like I said, Joni doesn't need to have her validity bolstered in a spurious way ("most covered single composer besides Mozart") ... let's just leave it at "wow, she's been covered a shitload of times!" Factoring in composers like Mozart (as in the original comparison), there's no way to tell because like all those other long dead composers, his music is in the public domain and therefore not necessarily tracked by performing rights organizations or other groups with similar databases. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 17:52:01 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Fw: Pro-American, JMDL? njc Brenda, Those countries and the > governments, people, etc. in them would have to have the same kind of > mindset that we do for that to work. Hmm. Thought we were talking about the countries of the middle east that are supposedly in a desperate state and in need of our assistance with infrastructure, medical care, etc. I think if you will refer to the text of the letter that I was replying to you will see that it states this plan should be implemented not only in Afghanistan but in all Arab and Muslim countries where it is needed, so obviously that is who I was referring to. As for not knowing definitively how the majority of the people of Afghanistan feel- that is true. They may hate the Taliban and be very happy we are there. I would surmise that the ones eating the food rations we are dropping are glad we are doing that. I would feel safe in writing that the Northern Coalition is most surely happy we are doing what we are and, wow, they are native Afghans. > > Mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:06:20 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Reworked Joni Tribute Part 2 << let's just leave it at "wow, she's been covered a shitload of times!" >> Or maybe "a New Zealand homemade boxload of times"! :~) Bob NP: Old 97's ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:32:15 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC When Will They ever Learn - Kingston Trio Version Dolphie Bush wrote: > I would surmise that the ones eating the food rations we are > dropping are glad we are doing that. In a land with 20,000,000 land mines some air dropped rations are a hazard to life, not an assistance. You like public relations, this would your bet. Your want to really assist people, this isn't the way, which is why Doctors Without Borders does not support this. Just to be international, here is a Canadian Doctors Without Borders Link that discusses this: http://www.msf.ca/ > I would feel safe in writing that the > Northern Coalition is most surely happy we are doing what we are and, wow, > they are native Afghans. > And wow, really wow, man, they are heroin dealers and anti-democrats who just happen to be the enemy of an enemy. The Northern Alliance is an ethnic coalition in essentially only the Takhar Province. I love the way so many people are suddenly real big fans of the Northern Alliance, something they never heard of six-seven weeks ago. The fact that they are today's enemy of enemy would place them in the same category of other enemies of enemies that short-perspective foreign policy in the past has supported, including that noted freedom fighter Osama bin Laden and that paragon of virtue Saddam Hussein. Loving my country it is very difficult to watch such lurching of support from one uninformed choice to another. For a look at perhaps the only decent part of the Northern Alliance, I would recommend the 22 October 2001 New Yorker article on Mamur Hassan. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:44:00 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: NJC When Will They ever Learn - Kingston Trio Version the (rev.) wrote: > In a land with 20,000,000 land mines some air dropped rations are a hazard to > life, not an assistance. Well, the folks I just saw eating them sure looked like they were assisted by them (and said so) and so were the ones who were hoarding them to sell to others. Your > want to really assist people, this isn't the way, which is why Doctors Without > Borders does not support this. Just to be international, here is a Canadian > Doctors Without Borders Link that discusses this: http://www.msf.ca/ According to that link I think the wording was it isn't the best way to apply assistance.> > they are heroin dealers and anti-democrats who just > happen to be the enemy of an enemy. Anti-democrats? Is that bad? As far as heroin dealers, isn't that how the Taliban is running the government and supporting itself. The Northern Alliance is an ethnic > coalition in essentially only the Takhar Province. What pertinence that has I don't know. I love the way so many > people are suddenly real big fans of the Northern Alliance, something they > never heard of six-seven weeks ago. Don't remember saying that I was a fan, much less a big one, of the Northern Alliance and as far as who has heard of them and when, well,.... You are not the only one that reads the issues. The fact that they are today's enemy of > enemy would place them in the same category of other enemies of enemies that > short-perspective foreign policy in the past has supported, including that > noted freedom fighter Osama bin Laden and that paragon of virtue Saddam > Hussein. ????????????????? Loving my country it is very difficult to watch such lurching of > support from one uninformed choice to another ????????????????????????????? > Mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:42:08 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: NJC When Will They ever Learn - Pete Seeger version Dolphie Bush wrote: > I wrote: > > The fact that they are today's enemy of > > enemy would place them in the same category of other enemies of enemies > that > > short-perspective foreign policy in the past has supported, including that > > noted freedom fighter Osama bin Laden and that paragon of virtue Saddam > > Hussein. and the reply was: > ????????????????? I wrote: > Loving my country it is very difficult to watch such lurching of > > support from one uninformed choice to another and the reply was: > ????????????????????????????? > Surely someone who claims to be informed on the issues knows that in the 1880s many of the same people now in the current administration were in the Reagan-Bush and Bush-Quyale administrations - and that those administrations supported the mujahadem, which included US support for Osama bin Laden, well known to the CIA and well regarded because he was so tenacious and able to recruit. That is not new news. bin Laden turned on the US when we placed troops in Saudi in Operation Desert Storm. bin Laden's instability and unstable relations with the US well also well known in the early 80s - but he was the enemy de jour of our enemy de jour. Part of bin Laden's ability to strike effectively at the US is that he after all has had the benefit of US training. Those same administrations also supported Saddam Hussein - right up until the invasion of Kuwait. After all, Saddam was the mortal enemy of Iran, and thus the enemy of our enemy... in 1990, in fact, just before the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, Senator Bob Dole representing the Bush-Quyale administration, toasted Saddam personally at an Iraqi state dinner. That is why loving my country makes it very difficult to watch such lurching of support from one uninformed choice to another. As long as US foreign policy is practiced on a short term basis rather than with long term perspectives, we will keep repeating the same mistakes. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:44:41 -0500 From: "Dolphie Bush" Subject: Re: NJC When Will They ever Learn - Pete Seeger version I know Vince. Don't you mean the 1980's/ Mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:09:26 EDT From: PMcfad@aol.com Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc mack the dolphin states: > ? I only wish it were that simple. > to me....this is the bottom line and exactly right. it's not simple at all. flags. to me...the flag is a symbol of safety. safety of knowing that we can believe as we choose and we will defend our nation. our country...the USA....has shaped and formed each of our minds and thoughts. to say....give peace a chance....is so simple. yet...it's flavored by the blood of so many martyrs. innocent people who gave their lives to build a nation that valued freedom of mind over spoon fed doctirne. remember john l. in the nyc tee shirt. at the end of the day...real lives have been lost in the USA. this war on terrorism is not about vengence or justice or striking back. it's about making our nation safe. our nation. the one that we live in. the one we grew up in. the one that allows us to make our music. it's a nasty world out there. always has been. dog eat dog. but the USA protects is borders and its cities. that is...until some criminal thieves stole our planes and destroyed our cities. like patty smith said....the shame of the towers was that they were twins. there were two of them. give peace a chance....yet the stench of OUR neighbors still reeks in lower manhattan. the world as one place? no. not when there are people wanting to kill us. in this situation...we hold together as a group and defend our flanks and our cities and our borders. we would not be here today if others had not done the same thing. when the dust settles...then!!! we think about peace. then we think about healing. the flag is a symbol of safety and one of recognition and one of thanksgiving for our safe place. to not see that...to look for a bigger freedom and a more sharing world.... that's just too simple for me. too much blood has already proved that wrong. i mean...people are killing americans. to me...it's that simple. we defend our own. lets just have a big love in!!!! no. not today, when the bodies still burn in nyc. today we fight to win, and shut down the enemies. shut down as in ....kill dead. tomorrow...when the killers are not around us.....we give peace a chance. and mack is absolutely right. this list is way to left on this issue. and like three or four people only have stood up for this country and it's choices today in a sheer dilemma situation. but for me...i know that like 90% of all americans stand behind the government's choices today and this list is the anomoly. we are that way on this list because of the music. but music is only one part of life. flesh and blood is another. this war is about keeping americans safe. that's a bitter pill to swallow. makes one not want to accept that fact. people who believe in the freedom of the USA, and fight for it's safety,..... make it safe for pacifists to dream about peace. yet it's always easier to point the finger and say....hey!!! give peace a chance! that is....after a bunch of unknowns have already died to really...give peace a chance. this pisses me off. real people...innocent people....7000 people...are dead today. there will be no peace because of that. not for a long while. that's a complex thing to accept. pat ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:23:03 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Tori Amos and Eminem - very NJC Reading some recent Chicago Tribunes, I came across Greg Kot's review of Tori Amos' concert in Chicago, which I gather is in support of her album "Strange Little Girls." Greg Kot - by the way a noted Joni admirer - was enthralled by Tori Amos's performance - and he singled out her cover of Eminem's "97' Bonnie & Clyde" off the M boy's 1st album, "The Slim Shady LP." Advisory: to the consternation of almost all in my demographic groups, I am a major Eminem fan. 97' Bonnie & Clyde is not an easy listening song, being similar to "Kim" off of the "Marshall Mathers LP." And I look at Eminem's music as I look at opera - about cosmic, consuming passions, love, sex, death. According to Kot, without changing a word but by her own infusion of her own insights and talent, Tori Amos changed the whole song around; where Eminem's version emphasizes the perspective of the crazed violent passion of the male in this song-story, Tori Amos' version - without changing a word - changes it into the mother seeing the dangerous schizoid nature of the male violence run amok in her life which destroys her life as it is beginning to suck in her daughter, thus violence passed to a new generation. According to Kot, this changes the song from exposition into something that really sears the soul of the listener. People who were comfortable with the song experience the horror of the situation when they hear the Tori Amos version. And thus, this is a remarkable feat. I always thought Eminem's 97' Bonnie & Clyde was frightening - as it should be, dealing with the banality of violence in in culture - and I have to confess, I was totally unfamiliar with anything other than the name Tori Amos. Kot also remarked on Tori Amos' version of Heart of Gold by my all time favorite Neil Young, giving it a totally new perspective (and not that flattering to Neil Young's viewpoint in the song.) So I went to cdnow - http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=1444938244/pagename=/RP/CDN/FIND/album.html/artistid=AMOS*TORI/itemid=1420731 and I have to say, I am very impressed with the work, the artistry, of Tori Amos, and the concept that she has going in this album. Strange Little Girl is all covers (no Joni content) and I think her reworking of 97' Bonnie and Clyde is all that Kot said it was and more. Not sure about Heart of Gold with the excerpt that I heard, but her version of Happiness is a Warm Gun is chilling (as it should be). Her work on these songs is genius, very interpretative, making every song new as if we hadn't heard it before. Anyway, I am obviously a new convert to the work of Tori Amos and on a slow (for me) Saturday night, felt like sharing the experience. After all, this is the first artist that I have been this excited about hearing for the first time since ... Eminem. I also love it when an artist does not reproduce the song of another in doing a cover but makes it totally new - and outside of Janis Joplin's preternatural ability to do the same, I haven't ever heard it done this well. Not quite Janis level, but as close as any mortal can come to Janis's ability to rework a song and make it new. All you Tori Amos fans out there, you can say, you told me so. This artist is very impressive. How have I missed her up until now? (the Rev) Vince The Strange Little Girl song list is: 1. New Age - Originally Performed By The Velvet Underground 2. 97' Bonnie & Clyde - Originally Performed By Eminem 3. Strange Little Girl - Originally Performed By The Stanglers 4. Enjoy The Silence - Originally Performed By Depeche Mode 5. I'm Not In Love - Originally Performed By 10cc 6. Rattlesnakes - Originally Performed By Lloyd Cole And The Commotions 7. Time - Originally Performed By Tom Waits 8. Heart Of Gold - Originally Performed By Neil Young 9.I Don't Like Mondays - Originally Performed By The Boomtown Rats 10. Happiness Is A Warm Gun - Originally Performed By The Beatles 11. Raining Blood - Originally Performed By Slayer 12. Real Men - Originally Performed By Joe Jackson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:26:51 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: NJC When Will They ever Learn - Pete Seeger version Dolphie Bush wrote: > I know Vince. Don't you mean the 1980's/ > > Mack I surely did! I apologize, following Brenda's gracious example, for the occasional errata that shows up and I appreciate the catch! (the Rev) Vince, a century off, it seems ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:50:09 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc Pat, I truly appreciate your feelings, as honest and direct and heart felt as they are, very clear in your writing. All of us are grappling with the scope of this horror, and the most effective, the best way to respond. People of good conscience and of good will of course will disagree and that is as it should be, for we all bring our own perspectives, insights, and understandings to these momentous events. Please know, Pat, that as I see it, that we differ on the "how" of the response, and on nothing else. As a nation, we must find ways to do justice to our own people and to others, to keep our people safe. I do not feel that war will keep Americans or anyone safe. Again, people of good will, people with good intentions, will differ on this. And people who care will differ on whether peace has ever been given a chance in a part of the world where war has been a constant since the late 70s at least (Afghanistan) and in the very neighboring states of India and Pakistan in the late 1940s, since the partition and independence. And people of good purposes will differ on whether American foreign policy has reflected options other than support for warring factions, or ignoring situations in their totality. No one side of any of the multitude of ways that these things can be looked at can claim any greater concern for the victims of September 11th. But I will differ with you, my friend,, that it is not "always easier to point the finger and say....hey!!! give peace a chance!" The tarring and feathering of those who did not support the American Revolution, the draft riots in the Civil War, the attacks on the Adventists in the Civil war because they would not take up arms, the arrest and imprisonment of people during World War 1 who spoke against that war, the way this country was torn by the peace movement in the Vietnam era, the shootings at Kent State, the hard hats who attacked the peace marchers, the constant accusations of a lack of patriotism and loyalty because one advocates a different route than war - it is not easy, has never been easy, let alone easier, to take the side of nonviolent alternatives when conflict is present. But that quibble aside, Pat, I thank you for the consistent honest and heart felt and caring qualities of all your posts, which I know is a reflection of the real you. Take care, my friend! Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 22:11:43 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: I heard Joni music in a play! Last night me & the Mrs. went to see a play by Morris Panych, who is a playwright from Vancouver. I'm sure you know of him, Stephen? Anyway, this play wasn't very good...it was called "Vigil", but there were about 30 "blackouts" to show the passing of time, change some set pieces, etc. They played music from female vocalists during these 30-60 second changes. They played 5 excerpts from the new Suzanne Vega, all of which I liked, some old Dusty Springfield tunes, 5 Tori Amos songs (all from 'Under The Pink' - imagine that!) and a very pleasantly surprising "Dry Cleaner From Des Moines" from Joni. Very cool - the high part of the evening for me! Bob NP: Equations ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 22:51:02 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: "Message to love-the isle of wight festival" I just now saw this movie on video. There was so much talent at that festival! Joan Baez,Leonard Cohen,Miles Davis,Donovan,The Doors,ELP,Jimi Hendrix,Jethro Tull,Kris Kristofferson,Joni Mitchell (She was excellent!),The Moody Blues, John Sebastion(I went to school with his son),The Who. I like them all.the only thing I don't understand is why they showed Donovan so briefly. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 22:56:21 EDT From: TimandMaryPowers@aol.com Subject: Christmas CDs NJC Hello, just curious - what are your favorite Christmas CDs? Mine is Noel by Joan Baez. The email on the Isle of Wight festival made me think of it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:22:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: shadows and light ... attention all canadians Brian and I just started to look at our very own copy of the new Shadows and Light book by Karen O'Brien !!!! now available in Canada, as of last week according to the sales person who assisted us this afternoon. one of the first things we checked were the credits... hugs and kudos to our brother Bobs, the king of kovers. :))))) off to read... love, MagsnBrei ===== I've got you to see me through, looking out for what I do Spreading sunshine from the skies, placing rainbows in my eyes Got you watching out for me, making sense of what I see When my world is wearing blue, I've got you to see me through . - ---by Eleanor McEvoy on her album Yola (2001) . Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:06:30 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc Kate wrote: > I don't think peace was ever really given a chance. I cringed the moment > that ultimatum of turning over bin laden was declared. I am sure the > president felt he needed to appease people who wanted to see bin laden pay. Bin Laden and his group have been bombing us since at least 1993. What do you think the U.S. government should have done in the11 years of his terrorist acts against us prior to Sept. 11th? 11 years before we demanded that he be turned over and backed it up with real military force. 11 years of knowing his concerted and ongoing plans of destruction and death against the U.S. 11 years of pur our highest government officials and intelligence agencies knowing his "cells" were operating all over the world and within our very country and what did we do? 11 years to address the reasons why some people hate us so much and to implement a "Marshall Plan." And now you call the president's actions "appeasement?" > But I imagine the US US citizens would have supported him saying, we are > going to try & get bin laden but we are going to do it a different way. And > then gone about enacting the plan that has already been suggested here by > Fred. From the looks of our current operation, we have enacted a type of Marshall Plan by increasing our aid to Afghanistan by hundreds of millions (over and above the hundreds of millions we have already sent to them prior to 9/11). I have not seen anything where it indicates that the population centers there are all living on top of 20,000,000 landmines. The airdrops of food have been largely successful according to all mainstream media reports, both international and domestic. The only complaints I've heard is that a couple people would like a different choice of menu and that they need much more food before winter sets in. It's an ongoing effort concurrent with the war on Bin Laden and the Taliban. From the beginning I've heard many reports that our government intends to do everything possible to help stabilize the country after this is resolved. What we are doing may not pan out in a perfect way, but at least we are doing something to resolve problems on all fronts in the country after 11 years. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:35:16 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Pro-American, JMDL? njc Pat, great post! you wrote: > and mack is absolutely right. this list is way to left on this issue. and > like three or four people only have stood up for this country and it's > choices today in a sheer dilemma situation. I think it's been a few more than 3 or 4 who have stood up for the U.S.'s current choice - but only 3 or 4 have perhaps kept the dialog going! > but for me...i know that like 90% of all americans stand behind the > government's choices today and this list is the anomoly. we are that way on > this list because of the music. but music is only one part of life. flesh > and blood is another. I'm not sure how you mean this - that the list is an anomaly because it is a music list and most people would rather discuss the music, or that the music somehow indicates a certain bent toward favoring one position over another? I hope you don't think that only people of a certain ideology listens to or appreciates certain music. I am on another music list where awhile back the dominant posters were always maintaining that no one who wasn't from the left could possibly ever be on that list or appreciate that music. One or two people would pop up to protest this assumption and be shot down. Finally an anonymous poll was set up for people to indicate their political persuasions. The results were 40% Democrat, 40% Republican and 20% Libertarian, Independent and Other. Interesting how the results pretty much reflected the overall U.S. demographics. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:57:19 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Gentler Americans NJC Mary P. wrote: > And, rather than road rage, I found my fellow travelers to be unfailingly polite, gentler, and much more accommodating than >on any similar trip that I had ever made in the past. We had just been through the ringer and back, and we were helping >each other through that experience together. It didn't matter that we were total strangers. We were Americans, and we >were, indeed, united. In the days immediately following the tragedy this sudden, more widespread gentleness and kindness was so evident. And at least in my observations, it is still continuing very much. Everyone from the lawyers I work with, to the shopkeepers I visit, to my friends, to strangers, everywhere I go it seems people have become so much more personal and take more time to be kind and patient and caring with each other. I've not seen that we've gotten back to "normal" yet in that sense, and it is a nice change! It is another silver lining in the dark cloud. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 04:02:08 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: october 28!!!!!! njc happy birthday julius!!!!!!!!! wallyK ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #522 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?